diff --git "a/transcript/allocentric_dhD_mNoStPs.txt" "b/transcript/allocentric_dhD_mNoStPs.txt" new file mode 100644--- /dev/null +++ "b/transcript/allocentric_dhD_mNoStPs.txt" @@ -0,0 +1,914 @@ +[0.000 --> 15.440] Hello everybody, welcome to another installment of the Behavior Evolution and Culture +[15.440 --> 16.600] Speaker Series. +[16.600 --> 17.600] My name is Clark Barrett. +[17.600 --> 21.160] I'm the director of the UCLA Center for Behavior and Evolution and Culture, and I'm organizing +[21.160 --> 22.800] the speaker series this year. +[22.800 --> 27.120] If you're interested in learning more about our Center, you can visit our website at +[27.120 --> 30.400] bec.ucla.edu. +[30.400 --> 33.040] You can find information about upcoming talks. +[33.040 --> 39.560] You can find an archive of videos of talks, and you can also find out how to get involved +[39.560 --> 44.480] with our Center, including signing up for a mailing list or making a tax redonation +[44.480 --> 46.440] to the Center. +[46.440 --> 52.600] The talks are also available on our YouTube channel, which is UCLA Beck. +[52.600 --> 54.360] And I am recording today's talk. +[55.080 --> 61.320] Before I introduce today's speaker, let me give you a preview of next week's OCC. +[61.320 --> 66.320] Our speaker will be Professor Zane Thayer from Dartmouth, and her talk will be How +[66.320 --> 71.160] Social Inequities Create Health Inequities, and Integration of Social and Biological +[71.160 --> 73.520] Mechanism. +[73.520 --> 78.280] This week it's my great pleasure to welcome Tyler Margettis, who is an Assistant Professor +[78.280 --> 83.480] of Cognitive Information Sciences at UC Merced, and an OMEDYAR Fellow at the Santa Fe +[83.480 --> 86.040] Institute, where he is right now. +[86.040 --> 89.480] Tyler's talk is called A History of Our Times. +[89.480 --> 98.600] If you'd like to unmute yourself, please join me in welcoming Tyler Margettis. +[98.600 --> 101.800] Thanks, all, and thanks, Clark, for the invitation to speak. +[101.800 --> 107.960] I'm super excited to talk to this group, because I think it brings together people thinking +[107.960 --> 111.640] about issues that I think about a lot from sort of all the different perspectives that +[111.640 --> 113.640] I like to consider. +[113.640 --> 118.640] So let me show my screen with the computer sound. +[118.640 --> 125.640] Great. +[125.640 --> 128.200] And so can I get a thumbs up that people can see this? +[128.200 --> 129.200] We can see it. +[129.200 --> 130.200] Yep. +[130.200 --> 131.200] Great, awesome. +[131.200 --> 137.680] Okay, so the title of my talk is A History of Our Times, which is a little bit punny, and +[137.680 --> 140.520] I think will make more sense as we go along. +[140.520 --> 145.760] But just at the outset, I want to say that I'm really trying to lay out a rather programmatic +[145.760 --> 151.960] approach to making sense of human understanding writ large. +[151.960 --> 157.200] So that's sort of going to be a bit of a breakneck sprint through a bunch of case studies +[157.200 --> 162.600] and considerations that I'm sort of really excited about these days. +[162.600 --> 166.600] But first, some Hollywood. +[167.600 --> 171.600] Let me go get him a straightness thing out, alright? +[171.600 --> 173.600] And wait him away, Michali. +[173.600 --> 174.600] What? +[174.600 --> 175.600] What are you alright? +[175.600 --> 176.600] I'm alright. +[176.600 --> 177.600] Yeah. +[177.600 --> 178.600] Was it last Tuesday? +[178.600 --> 179.600] Yeah. +[179.600 --> 180.600] Okay, wait. +[180.600 --> 181.600] So now watch his hands. +[181.600 --> 185.600] It was the Tuesday that was last week that's before the one that's about to come up. +[185.600 --> 186.600] My mistake, I'm sorry. +[186.600 --> 187.600] Forgive me. +[187.600 --> 188.600] Okay. +[188.600 --> 190.600] So this is a wonderful example. +[190.600 --> 195.600] I mean, they're actors, but this is pretty close to what you see in everyday life. +[195.600 --> 205.600] And sort of it was the canonical encounter face to face interaction where the way that people gesture about time lays out time along these spatial axes. +[205.600 --> 207.600] So from here from the left to right. +[207.600 --> 211.600] So yesterday's point is the left forward to the right. +[211.600 --> 222.600] And this approach of using space to structure time, or as we'll talk about sort of lots of other domains, is not just restricted to our hands or gesture. +[222.600 --> 228.600] And this also shows up in sort of the millisecond differences of human decision making. +[228.600 --> 241.600] So this is one amongst many studies that's demonstrated that when people are making a temporal duration or temporal sequence judgments, they're faster to make judgments about earlier things on the left. +[241.600 --> 242.600] And later things on the right. +[242.600 --> 251.600] So it seems like this spatialization of time that we see in gesture is also sort of happening in low level decision making. +[251.600 --> 261.600] So this is a summary as revealed in these reaction time studies. +[261.600 --> 263.600] And this actually shows up really, really early in development. +[263.600 --> 266.600] So here's some data that I collected with colleagues. +[266.600 --> 269.600] This is a five year old. +[269.600 --> 270.600] And so. +[270.600 --> 273.600] The difference between last week and next week. +[273.600 --> 276.600] What is last week and what is next week? +[276.600 --> 278.600] And what about right here? +[278.600 --> 280.600] And next is right here. +[280.600 --> 281.600] Okay, cool. +[281.600 --> 284.600] And then what about tomorrow and yesterday? +[284.600 --> 285.600] What is yesterday? +[285.600 --> 286.600] And what is tomorrow? +[286.600 --> 288.600] Awesome. +[288.600 --> 289.600] Okay. +[289.600 --> 293.600] And then what about the difference between last week and next year? +[293.600 --> 295.600] What is last week and what is next year? +[295.600 --> 297.600] This year is right here. +[297.600 --> 299.600] And last week was right here. +[299.600 --> 300.600] Cool. +[300.600 --> 303.600] Okay, so this kid is first of all adorable. +[303.600 --> 306.600] Second of all, clearly the best kid in all of our data. +[306.600 --> 310.600] So they're not all like this, but many of them are. +[310.600 --> 313.600] And so in sort of like long and progress work, +[313.600 --> 316.600] we've shown that this is actually quite systematic early on in development. +[316.600 --> 319.600] Even at a stage in development where kids are still pretty bad. +[319.600 --> 321.600] At words for time, like before and after, +[321.600 --> 325.600] is sort of gesture in these systematically spatial ways. +[326.600 --> 335.600] And this pattern continues beyond the individual in sort of the larger patterns of material culture. +[335.600 --> 338.600] So this, you may have seen things like this. +[338.600 --> 340.600] This is a timeline. +[340.600 --> 345.600] And so the thing to note here is that once again time is being laid out, +[345.600 --> 350.600] structured, communicated using this left to right spatial access. +[351.600 --> 354.600] And so the point I'm trying to make here is that when you, +[354.600 --> 358.600] when we think about the human understanding of time, +[358.600 --> 360.600] especially within our culture, +[360.600 --> 365.600] there's a heterogeneous mix of parts, different facets that all seem to be doing very, +[365.600 --> 366.600] very similar things. +[366.600 --> 370.600] We have material culture and a set of cultural practices associated with that. +[370.600 --> 374.600] You have spontaneous use of the body and communication and gesture. +[374.600 --> 376.600] You have low level decision making. +[376.600 --> 379.600] You also have systematic policy me in language, +[379.600 --> 382.600] such as when we talk about long or short meetings. +[382.600 --> 385.600] Or that I'm looking forward to the future, +[385.600 --> 386.600] thinking back on the past. +[386.600 --> 390.600] And so you have all these different facets that seem to be doing really, +[390.600 --> 392.600] really similar things. +[392.600 --> 395.600] But could have been otherwise. +[395.600 --> 400.600] So here's this lovely quote from a book of who writes, +[400.600 --> 402.600] had an organ's not been asymmetrical. +[402.600 --> 405.600] Our view of time might have been like ragged night and jetties. +[405.600 --> 408.600] Or ragged night and jagged mountains around a small twinkling, +[408.600 --> 410.600] satisfied helmet. +[410.600 --> 411.600] So what is he getting at here? +[411.600 --> 415.600] So he's suggesting that there may have been some, +[415.600 --> 420.600] you know, historical accidents in the development of our bodies. +[420.600 --> 425.600] Or our minds, maybe the kinds of experiences that we've had that have led people +[425.600 --> 429.600] to think about time in the systematic ways that seem so natural to us. +[429.600 --> 434.600] And turns out there are actually people that maybe are conceptualizing time. +[434.600 --> 437.600] In these really diverse ways. +[437.600 --> 440.600] So here's one example from colleagues. +[440.600 --> 442.600] Rafael Nunez, +[442.600 --> 444.600] Kenzie Cooper, +[444.600 --> 445.600] and others. +[445.600 --> 446.600] This isn't my own work. +[446.600 --> 448.600] But they've documented a group, +[448.600 --> 449.600] the the you know, +[449.600 --> 452.600] and pop new Guinea for whom time runs uphill. +[452.600 --> 456.600] And so they've found, you know, systematic evidence from gestures +[456.600 --> 459.600] during storytelling that storytellers will, +[459.600 --> 462.600] when recounting instances from their past, +[462.600 --> 465.600] or describing the meaning of yesterday and tomorrow, +[465.600 --> 470.600] a little gesture systematically upwards uphill for tomorrow and downhill for yesterday +[470.600 --> 472.600] and other kinds of time terms. +[472.600 --> 474.600] So here's another group again, +[474.600 --> 477.600] interestingly associating now with their bodies, +[477.600 --> 479.600] the future with one axis, +[479.600 --> 481.600] the past with a contrasting axis, +[481.600 --> 484.600] but in a really, really different way than us. +[484.600 --> 488.600] So despite all the sort of cohesion that we have within our own culture +[488.600 --> 493.600] around the way that we're using space to conceptualize and structure time, +[493.600 --> 498.600] turns out there's actually quite a bit of cross cultural diversity. +[498.600 --> 502.600] And so to try to sort of systematize this cross cultural diversity, +[502.600 --> 505.600] with my colleague Kevin Holmes, +[505.600 --> 509.600] and supported by a really lovely research system that you seem to have said, +[509.600 --> 510.600] Sandra Shacone, +[510.600 --> 515.600] we've tried to integrate all the data that's been collected by anthropologists, +[515.600 --> 517.600] linguists, psychologists, +[517.600 --> 521.600] on cross cultural diversity in spatial understandings of time, +[521.600 --> 523.600] into a unified data bank. +[523.600 --> 527.600] And the goal here is to make this a public and interrogatable +[527.600 --> 532.600] and expandable data bank that will allow us to look systematically +[532.600 --> 536.600] at what kinds of factors, +[536.600 --> 539.600] what kinds of cultural differences, environmental differences, +[539.600 --> 542.600] seem to be driving this cross cultural diversity. +[542.600 --> 547.600] And so we're calling this Atlas abstract thought and language across space. +[547.600 --> 551.600] I know it's great. +[551.600 --> 556.600] And we're doing this for time also for number and also for space. +[556.600 --> 558.600] And this is very much in progress work, +[558.600 --> 562.600] but what this map shows are the field sites that we've coded so far. +[562.600 --> 566.600] The size of each dot is the number of people who were excited that field site. +[566.600 --> 570.600] And if the circle or the triangle is red, +[570.600 --> 574.600] that's a group that is conceptualizing number or time, +[574.600 --> 580.600] along an access that differs from your standard US American, +[580.600 --> 584.600] anglophone, undergrad, in most cases. +[584.600 --> 586.600] And so the thing that I want you to notice is, +[586.600 --> 588.600] well, first of all, there's actually a lot of blue. +[588.600 --> 591.600] So a lot of people that sort of do things that are quite similar to what we're doing. +[591.600 --> 593.600] But there's also a lot of red. +[593.600 --> 595.600] So there's a lot of cross cultural diversity here. +[595.600 --> 598.600] This is just a small sample of the studies that are out there +[598.600 --> 601.600] were sort of still integrating all the data here. +[601.600 --> 606.600] But it gives you a sense of the amazing cross cultural diversity in how people think +[606.600 --> 608.600] about these really fundamental domains. +[608.600 --> 613.600] And that's sort of one of the puzzles that we're going to be dealing with today. +[613.600 --> 614.600] Okay. +[614.600 --> 616.600] But given all this diversity, +[616.600 --> 621.600] I think it's worth reflecting on how unusual this strikes most people +[621.600 --> 624.600] who maybe aren't anthropologists or, +[624.600 --> 627.600] you know, cross culturally inflected cognitive scientists. +[627.600 --> 632.600] So this is my, my known, my stepmother's mother, Italian mother. +[632.600 --> 634.600] We didn't speak English for French, +[634.600 --> 635.600] and I don't speak Italian. +[635.600 --> 640.600] So we'd have to communicate often translated by my sister. +[640.600 --> 644.600] And so she thought I was a teacher and she was trying to like ask, +[644.600 --> 646.600] well, what are you teaching people these days? +[646.600 --> 648.600] I was trying to understand, like, explain to her, +[648.600 --> 650.600] like, I sort of study people. +[650.600 --> 654.600] And so I tried to describe to her some of the work of my dissertation advisor, +[654.600 --> 655.600] Raphael Nunez. +[655.600 --> 656.600] And I said, no, no, no. +[656.600 --> 658.600] You know, the Amaro people in the Andes, +[658.600 --> 660.600] they think the past is in front of them. +[660.600 --> 661.600] The future is behind them. +[661.600 --> 664.600] So my sister sort of translate this into Italian and says something to her. +[664.600 --> 666.600] And then my no, no response. +[666.600 --> 668.600] And my sister like turns right on the face. +[668.600 --> 669.600] She's blushing. +[669.600 --> 670.600] I'm like, oh, what did she say? +[670.600 --> 671.600] So that's what she said in Italian. +[671.600 --> 672.600] I don't speak Italian. +[672.600 --> 676.600] Which as she said is anywhere you go, you can find idiots. +[676.600 --> 677.600] Okay. +[677.600 --> 680.600] No, no, not quite understanding the point. +[680.600 --> 683.600] I think she really thought that I was a teacher who was going to these, +[683.600 --> 688.600] you know, these poor confused people to explain how time really worked. +[688.600 --> 692.600] You know, to sort of set them straight about, no, no, no, no, come on, guys, +[692.600 --> 695.600] like the future is clearly ahead of you and the past is behind you, +[695.600 --> 701.600] not recognizing that this cross culture diversity is actually evidence for the incredible, +[701.600 --> 706.600] creativity of the human species. +[706.600 --> 709.600] But I think there's something really deep here about this sense that, +[709.600 --> 712.600] you know, if they're doing it differently, they had to be doing it wrong. +[712.600 --> 715.600] And that's sort of one of the tensions that I want to make sense of. +[715.600 --> 721.600] Why do you become so tied to the peculiar ways we have of conceptualizing these foundational domains? +[721.600 --> 727.600] Given the fact that there's also so much cross culture diversity. +[727.600 --> 728.600] Right. +[728.600 --> 729.600] Okay. +[729.600 --> 733.600] So here are some of the questions that I'm thinking about that I'll try to make some progress on this talk. +[733.600 --> 734.600] Right. +[734.600 --> 738.600] So first of all, how do we think about this tension between diversity and universality? +[738.600 --> 739.600] Right. +[739.600 --> 742.600] And then, you know, if you look at the, you know, conceptualization of time, +[742.600 --> 744.600] it's still time along space. +[744.600 --> 745.600] Now it's associated with the self. +[745.600 --> 746.600] Right. +[746.600 --> 751.600] So how do we make sense of the dimensions along which change things change and, +[751.600 --> 753.600] and dimension along which they don't? +[753.600 --> 757.600] And then also sort of taking a more dichronic perspective. +[757.600 --> 762.600] How can we make sense of the actual processes that led to this diversity? +[762.600 --> 763.600] And then, you know, +[763.600 --> 768.600] how do we make sense of the actual processes that led to this diversity? +[768.600 --> 772.600] In how people conceptualize time space and number? +[772.600 --> 777.600] And so the sort of the pithy way of saying this is what are the histories of our times? +[777.600 --> 778.600] Right. +[778.600 --> 781.600] So what are the sort of temporal processes, +[781.600 --> 788.600] the mechanisms operating over different timescales that have led to this incredible diversity of times that exist around the world? +[788.600 --> 791.600] But also within our own communities. +[791.600 --> 797.600] So one way that people have thought about these sets of issues could be schematized like this. +[797.600 --> 803.600] And the idea is often is that, you know, the thing that matters is really what's happening within your skull. +[803.600 --> 809.600] And then those become manifest in various observable things, people's gestures, +[809.600 --> 812.600] the art of X you create, the way you talk. +[812.600 --> 819.600] Sort of one person who sometimes advocates for a story that's kind of like this is George Lakeoff. +[819.600 --> 824.600] In sort of the conceptual metaphor theory type world. +[824.600 --> 835.600] So I have some quotes here from a recent paper by hand. So we wrote, you know, linguistic metaphors are surface reflections of those conceptual that things where the conceptual that things are supposed to be things within people's brains. +[835.600 --> 841.600] Conceptual metaphor structure spontaneous gestures and signs and sign languages. +[841.600 --> 845.600] As children, we learn hundreds of primary metaphors and they structure our systems of everyday thoughts. +[845.600 --> 850.600] So here the focus is really on what's happening between the years, you know, within the skull. +[850.600 --> 859.600] And then all this stuff that's in the world that we can see those are just supposed to be sort of, you know, the exhaust from the engine of thought. +[859.600 --> 861.600] Okay, here's an alternative. +[861.600 --> 868.600] And this is sort of an approach that, you know, I've inherited from one of my mentors at Hutchins. +[868.600 --> 892.600] But the sort of, you know, a long, long history of thought going back to base it on earlier that really we want to be thinking about these things as consisting of, you know, large distributed heterogeneous ecologies sort of on analogy with the kinds of natural ecologies you have really have multiple species interacting with each other in interesting heterogeneous bidirectional ways. +[892.600 --> 899.600] And so unlike the previous account that are showing here now sort of what's happening within our brains is still really important. +[899.600 --> 910.600] But we're also sort of giving place of precedence to the way people talk the artifacts they have and the way they gesture as having a certain degree of autonomy. +[910.600 --> 925.600] So the way I like to say this is, you know, the reason why I say that, oh, this meeting was really short or this talk is really quite long isn't because I have this conceptual metaphor within my skull that associates duration with length. +[925.600 --> 928.600] I talk that way because that's just the way English works. +[928.600 --> 941.600] And languages have their own autonomous processes of change that are going to be different from the process of development that's going on within my brain. +[941.600 --> 946.600] Okay, so given that background, here's the argument that I'm trying to make, right? +[946.600 --> 960.600] First of all, conceptualizations of time, space and number are best understood, not as concept within individual brains, which is sort of the classic locus of cognitive psychology and most of cognitive science. +[960.600 --> 967.600] But instead as heterogeneous systems distribute across brains bodies material artifacts cultural practices. +[967.600 --> 983.600] And critically within these cognitive ecologies mutual dependence is the rule right so it's not just that brains are driving these things, but we're getting these bi directional causal patterns where things are sort of regimenting each other in complex often non linear ways. +[983.600 --> 993.600] And and here's I think is maybe one of the critical points I'm trying to make here is that these heterogeneous components have their own characteristic time scales. +[993.600 --> 1010.600] So the time scale which implicit mental association is going to change is going to be a completely different time scale of the time scale, which something like a Twitter timeline or some other material or digital artifacts can change, which can be a different time scale from time scale, which are body morphology is changing. +[1010.600 --> 1019.600] And it's critical to think about how these time scales are shaping each other, but also autonomous. +[1019.600 --> 1029.600] You know, by various time scales, I really mean from you know the process of slow evolution by natural selection down to the rapid pace of situated interaction. +[1029.600 --> 1037.600] And you know, these are nested time skills that sort of operating with each other and there's sort of interesting interactions happening across there. +[1037.600 --> 1042.600] Okay, let's look at some data, let's look at what's actually sort of happening the world. +[1042.600 --> 1051.600] So the first place I want to return to is this you know valley and pop new Guinea that I talked about a bit earlier. +[1051.600 --> 1057.600] There's been a bunch of work done there by Rafael Nunez, Kenzie Cooper, writer and others. +[1057.600 --> 1065.600] And so, so you just some background so this is like in the finnister mountain range in pop new Guinea. +[1065.600 --> 1072.600] This is a photo taken by my colleague, Kenzie Cooper, writer of one of the villages. +[1072.600 --> 1078.600] So these are substance farmers, those are around 8,000 people distributed across 20 villages. +[1078.600 --> 1088.600] And recall that this is the group that had this really interesting spatial understanding of time where they're conceptualizing time as running uphill. +[1088.600 --> 1097.600] And so in work with new New Nunez and Cooper writer, we want to know how are they conceptualizing number another one of these foundational domains. +[1097.600 --> 1113.600] And here I don't want to get into sort of all the details of the debate and the literature, but there's, you know, some conflicting evidence that a linear spatial understanding of number might be a neat and across cultural universal. +[1113.600 --> 1122.600] But there's other evidence that maybe that wasn't true and was you know very much shaped by the particularities of a particular culture. +[1122.600 --> 1125.600] And so to sort of. +[1125.600 --> 1131.600] Gainson additional insight into this into this question of how universal the spatial understanding of number was. +[1131.600 --> 1142.600] We had them do a classic card sorting task where we gave them these discs with either discs of smaller and larger size or dots of a different number. +[1142.600 --> 1146.600] We also had some other discs, but I'm sort of not going to get into those details here. +[1146.600 --> 1152.600] And we just asked them to sort of lay them out in a way that makes sense. +[1152.600 --> 1162.600] So we just sort of handed them a bunch of discs and we said, you know, do this as you could. These are two examples of what folks spontaneously did there in the field. +[1162.600 --> 1172.600] So notice their ordered and there's a very strict line here, right? So they're not being placed in circles, they're not being stacked, they're not being placed in two different spatial groups. +[1172.600 --> 1175.600] They did sometimes do that. +[1175.600 --> 1179.600] But and so here. +[1179.600 --> 1190.600] The blue square at the top shows that US American undergrads basically always just laid out these discs in a straight path, a linear order. +[1190.600 --> 1195.600] And the you know did slightly less, but still a lot of the time. +[1195.600 --> 1205.600] And if you looked at the orientation of these lines, the US adults here were almost always laying them out right words. +[1205.600 --> 1209.600] So here the different quadrants are showing the orientation of those lines. +[1209.600 --> 1221.600] And you see most of the density there is in that right most, what's not a quadrant is an octant, the right most octant showing that they're laying it out left to right. +[1221.600 --> 1231.600] So basically they were laying things out in the line. So that does seem to be, you know, interestingly showing up cross culturally and almost some sort of universal way, certainly highly regular. +[1231.600 --> 1238.600] But it hasn't been regimented in the way that it has been in the US. +[1238.600 --> 1248.600] And I think it's really interesting, this sort of this mix of cross cold diversity, but also a certain degree of universality here. +[1248.600 --> 1256.600] And you know, the story that I want to tell here is that there are these sort of long time scale constraints on our bodies. +[1256.600 --> 1270.600] You know, we have the sort of symmetric and asymmetric morphology, but also on our brains that might sort of have an evolved tendency to associate space and time and space and number. +[1270.600 --> 1279.600] But then also there are these sort of shorter time scale cultural processes and interaction processes that lead to very particular spatial configurations of number. +[1279.600 --> 1291.600] And so one thing that's completely lacking for the most part in the youth know are systematic graphical representations of number that use space. +[1291.600 --> 1313.600] And so here the story seems to be that this particular set of graphical practice that we have in the west where we lay out numbers spatially seems to have regimented a set of intuitions that do seem to be available and deployed cross culturally. +[1313.600 --> 1325.600] So that's sort of a sort of a taste of the different time scales in which we can see the regimentation of abstract understanding so they're focusing on number. +[1325.600 --> 1333.600] Oh, and I should say I'm also going to be sort of moving back and forth between looking at how people conceptualize number space and time. +[1333.600 --> 1348.600] So I really want my argument to be generic across domains, right. So this is really an argument about adopting ecological perspective on people's conceptualization of these foundational domains, not specifically about time. +[1348.600 --> 1358.600] I just love the time in the title so much so I had to put it to make it about time, but I really don't want this talk to be about time. So that's why we're talking about number there for a second. +[1359.600 --> 1373.600] And so now I want to talk a bit about change. So that was sort of a snapshot of one particular group that lacked these regimenting processes from these cultural artifacts. +[1373.600 --> 1382.600] And compared it to another snapshot of US Americans who did have these constraints from things that evolve over this cultural time scale. +[1382.600 --> 1393.600] But of course they had to get there somehow. And so to do that, I want to talk about some work that I've done with the anthropologist, Melanie McCumsy, and again with Kenzie Cooper, writer. +[1393.600 --> 1409.600] And here this is in Southern Mexico in Wahaka, where we're going to actually sort of capture a process of dynamical change at multiple time scales as it's happening. +[1409.600 --> 1422.600] Right. And sort of I think one of the cool things here is that we seem to have captured a real critical transition in this larger complex system that constitutes the cognitive ecology. +[1422.600 --> 1431.600] Okay, so here's the field site. It's in Huchtan, which is you know, a mid-sized city in Wahaka, Mexico. +[1431.600 --> 1436.600] So as you can see here, I mean, it's developed. +[1436.600 --> 1444.600] One of our subjects was like a delivery driver. This isn't like substance farmers like we're looking at in Papua New Guinea. +[1444.600 --> 1459.600] But still, you know, it's also common to see, you know, donkey or horse drawn characters in the street. And some people do have some like support agriculture that they would do in addition to their work. +[1459.600 --> 1474.600] And yeah, I think that's what I want to say about that. Oh, I guess the other the other really interesting thing here is that Huchtan is super interesting because there's a ton of households that speak an indigenous language. +[1474.600 --> 1480.600] So here indigenous language has really seemed to be, you know, thriving as much as they are in the West. +[1480.600 --> 1485.600] And the particular indigenous language that's really widely spoken here is is Miss Zapotech. +[1485.600 --> 1500.600] But at the same time, bilingualism is is basically the norm. So even, yeah, and and they're mostly bilingual in Spanish. +[1500.600 --> 1514.600] Yeah, and so this, oh, yeah, the other interesting thing here is that there is naturally occurring variability in how competent people were with Spanish, especially in this in the sort of neighborhood of the city that we looked at that was a predator. +[1514.600 --> 1525.600] That was a predominantly, uh, is Miss Zapotech community. Some people were, you know, completely balanced bilinguals. So operating in Spanish and in this Miss Zapotech fluently. +[1525.600 --> 1537.600] And others were really quite dominant in this Miss Zapotech and might have some Spanish, but we're really sort of relying on this is Miss Zapotech more and add much better competence in this Miss Zapotech. +[1537.600 --> 1558.600] And so this naturally occurring variability actually allowed us to sort of re ask classic questions about the relationship between language and thought where traditionally people will adopt this practice will sort of go cross culturally look at completely different language groups that also different lots of other cultural ways. +[1558.600 --> 1566.600] And then look at how they might differ in their thinking and sort of use that correlation to argue for a targeted relationship between language and thought. +[1566.600 --> 1581.600] And we had this cool opportunity here where there is naturally occurring variability in the use of these languages within one neighborhood, right? These are neighbors that are sort of differing in their uses of these languages, but sort of otherwise inhabiting the same cultural universe. +[1581.600 --> 1598.600] And in particular, we use this to ask about the use of different spatial frames of reference to remember and communicate about events in terms of their spatial layout. +[1598.600 --> 1609.600] And this is the task. We had people sort of view these motion events that are presented to them, so kind of like dominoes or like a cylinder would roll down. +[1609.600 --> 1615.600] And then we rotated them 90 degrees and asked them, tell me what you just saw. +[1615.600 --> 1628.600] And if this really happened to me, if I just saw like an amazing domino demonstration and then I was spun 90 degrees for some reason and my friend was like, oh, what just happened. +[1628.600 --> 1642.600] You know, introspection is is valuable, but I'm pretty sure I would gesture spontaneously in ways that would maintain the relations of spatial relations relative to my own body. +[1642.600 --> 1649.600] And I'm talking about this as an that's an egocentric famer reference, right? So if I saw, you know, things rolling to the right, I would gesture to the right. +[1649.600 --> 1653.600] If I saw things rolling away from me, I would gesture away from me. +[1653.600 --> 1668.600] It turns out that egocentric famer reference while sort of very common in sort of European languages spoken in developed places isn't the default everywhere in the world. +[1668.600 --> 1678.600] And also, lots of other places, the default, even for this fairly small scale set of spatial relations is one of a number of allocentric. +[1678.600 --> 1686.600] So other than self frames of reference, so related to cardinal directions or various kinds of major landmarks like hills. +[1686.600 --> 1697.600] And so for instance, in this particular task, the way that would manifest itself would be people maintaining in their gesture, the spatial relations not relative to their own body, +[1697.600 --> 1703.600] but relative to the cardinal direction. So if they saw something rolling south by southeast, they would gesture south by southeast. +[1703.600 --> 1721.600] And there was some anecdotal evidence from ethnographic work that this is something that people did, but there actually wasn't good systematic investigations of whether people did systematically maintain these spatial frames of reference in the gesture during storytelling. +[1721.600 --> 1734.600] Okay, so here's some videos of the actual trials to give you an example. +[1734.600 --> 1741.600] Sort of a variety of different spatial events. Notice there's always a major motion event going along one particular axis. +[1741.600 --> 1753.600] So here this is all along the axis sort of towards or away, the participant, but we also had cases where it was going left to right, so we sort of manipulated access. +[1753.600 --> 1760.600] Sometimes it gives themselves, okay, so you get the idea. +[1760.600 --> 1773.600] And so here's an example of someone gesturing about something that they just saw running from left to right from their perspective, but that's actually sort of towards the camera from behind the screen where they saw the event. +[1773.600 --> 1787.600] Okay, so you see that nice sort of right where it just were. +[1787.600 --> 1798.600] And then here's someone who saw the same motion event along the same axis. +[1798.600 --> 1807.600] So now you see this completely different access here, so she's actually sort of maintaining the cardal direction orientation of the motion event when reproducing in gesture. +[1807.600 --> 1827.600] Okay, so recap we showed them these motion events we wrote to the 90 degrees and then we looked at how they were representing the spatial motion event in their gesture systematically when they're telling it under this rotation that allow us to distinguish between an egocentric so body based frame of reference or some allocentric. +[1827.600 --> 1830.600] Allocentric frame of reference. +[1830.600 --> 1839.600] And here's what we found so again, this is a similar representation to what we saw with the you know where each octant shows the direction of gesture on a particular trial. +[1839.600 --> 1854.600] And so even though we are sort of coding one of eight different directions, they basically only gesture in ways for the most part, I mean, there's some exceptions here that were consistent with an egocentric frame of reference or an allocentric frame of reference. +[1854.600 --> 1875.600] So I think this is some of the first evidence that people actually do systematically deploy these spatial frames of reference to structure the way they're gesturing as they're communicating about these different motion events and I'll note very, very seldom do we actually see explicit spatial frame of reference language in their speech. +[1875.600 --> 1885.600] So I think a few people said oh, I rolled eastward or and then it came down to the left and if we actually remove those few trials where there were spatial terms like that. +[1885.600 --> 1897.600] This pattern was basically unchanged like the plots are so similar that I have to sort of label them to remember, okay, what's the one we're analyzing with all the trials and what's the one we're analyzing with the language removed. +[1897.600 --> 1909.600] So this is showing that sort of gesture is really playing this preferred role in communicating this spatial frame of reference information. +[1909.600 --> 1922.600] Okay, but then the question is what actually determines which of the people were sort of these orange egocentric gestures and what was determining the trials where we have these sort of green allocentric gestures. +[1922.600 --> 1933.600] So using a multi level Bayesian model, we sort of estimated how much different factors predicted the adoption of one or the other frame of reference and gesture. +[1933.600 --> 1941.600] And so this is showing the association between different factors and the adoption of the egocentric frame of reference. +[1941.600 --> 1954.600] The one thing to note is that the person's dominant language. So whether they were a Spanish zapotech balanced bilingual or a zapotech dominant that didn't matter. +[1954.600 --> 1967.600] And this is somewhat surprising based given some of the conclusions that people have drawn based on cross cultural comparisons where sort of just based on speaking different languages at preferentially talk about space differently. +[1967.600 --> 1973.600] So we also didn't find evidence that they thought differently using sort of the frame of reference that was preferred in their language. +[1973.600 --> 1981.600] We did not find that in this case. We also didn't find evidence that the particular language they were speaking for the task in that moment mattered. +[1981.600 --> 1987.600] So we actually tested people in both languages in Spanish and zapotech if they were balanced bilinguals didn't matter. +[1987.600 --> 1998.600] Quite reliably was how good they were with the specific words in Spanish and zapotech for the spatial relations of left and right. +[1998.600 --> 2001.600] So that's ego vocab on this table here. +[2001.600 --> 2010.600] And so it seems like it's not the sort of classic warfin story of, you know, entire language determines a universe that you inhabit. +[2010.600 --> 2027.600] So what matters is like are you a Spanish speaker or a zapotech speaker. It really is the specific semantic distinctions that are available at a lexical level that people sort of on an individual basis can become better or worse at over development. +[2027.600 --> 2031.600] And so folks who are really, really good at those left and right terms. +[2031.600 --> 2036.600] And also gesture egocentrically, even when they weren't actually using those words in speech. +[2036.600 --> 2043.600] And if you hadn't used those, you would sort of more often rely on this alacentric. +[2043.600 --> 2051.600] But the other thing here. And so this is getting back to this question of time scales. So what I just showed you was sort of really summing across entire sessions. +[2051.600 --> 2062.600] And this is showing the sort of beautiful mess. If you actually look at the trial to trial dynamics of the adoption of an alacentric versus an egocentric femur reference. +[2062.600 --> 2071.600] So at the top that's people are egocentric at the bottom of the alacentric and time is along the horizontal axis. And each line is one person. +[2071.600 --> 2080.600] So the fact that you see lines jumping from the top to the bottom, it tells you that people are changing the femur reference they're using from trial to trial. +[2080.600 --> 2085.600] This looks really messy, but we asked like, is there a method to this gestural madness. +[2085.600 --> 2097.600] And the way we try to answer that was by analyzing the dynamics of trial to trial adoption of femur reference using a set of models called Markov models. +[2097.600 --> 2107.600] And basically look at the transition probabilities from one moment to the next looking only at what happened sort of at this moment to predict what's happening that it has no memory. +[2107.600 --> 2111.600] It has a very, very short term memory of just looking at what's happening the present moment. +[2111.600 --> 2121.600] And here each node sort of the aloe and the ego that's showing sort of the state of gesturing using an alacentric or egocentric femur reference. +[2121.600 --> 2133.600] The thickness and those numbers indicate the transition probability of, for instance, going from an egocentric femur reference in one trial to doing again an egocentric gesture on the next trial. +[2133.600 --> 2135.600] That's very, very common. +[2135.600 --> 2140.600] So about 90% of the time you stick with that. Likewise for alacentric. +[2140.600 --> 2145.600] And so this is in those people who are really, really bad at those left and right terms. +[2145.600 --> 2154.600] And so what you see is that both the ego and the alacentric femur reference seem to be fairly stable attractors in the dynamics of moment to moment gesture. +[2154.600 --> 2157.600] So if these sort of stick with one little stick with it for a bit. +[2157.600 --> 2164.600] And you know about 10% of the time they might switch to this other tractor and then sort of riff on that for bit will gesture like that. +[2164.600 --> 2169.600] Here's what it looked like for people who had the best competence with those left and right terms. +[2169.600 --> 2174.600] Okay, so known as now the egocentric is a highly stable strategy. +[2174.600 --> 2178.600] Once you're there, you're likely to stick you basically never switched anything else. +[2178.600 --> 2185.600] The alacentric is still present, but about half the time you're going to be drawn into that egocentric femur reference. +[2185.600 --> 2188.600] Another way to look at this is. +[2188.600 --> 2192.600] This is sort of a potential landscape. So these are quasi potential landscapes. +[2192.600 --> 2204.600] So you can think of it as if you're going to drop a marble on top of this landscape and it's going to roll down these contours into possibly a local basin. +[2204.600 --> 2206.600] These are basins of attraction. +[2206.600 --> 2210.600] And so notice for the folks who are really, really bad with these left and right terms. +[2210.600 --> 2214.600] We have these two basins of attraction, the ego and the alacentric. +[2214.600 --> 2220.600] And for folks who have mastered the left and right terms that alacentric attractor has basically disappeared. +[2220.600 --> 2228.600] So all sort of dynamics are now driving people towards using that egocentric femur reference. +[2228.600 --> 2239.600] So here this is showing that sort of attractor landscape, the potential landscape for different values of mastery of left and right terms. +[2239.600 --> 2243.600] And at the top, these are people who like, yeah, they got it. They're perfect. +[2243.600 --> 2249.600] 0.5, they like maybe use it like half the time and zero, they got it all wrong. +[2249.600 --> 2258.600] I've also included minus 0.5. So this is this didn't exist in our data because it's not possible for people to actually get a negative score because we're just looking at accuracy. +[2258.600 --> 2272.600] But I'm including it here as an example of what might have happened in the recent history before Spanish became so widespread when those left and right terms weren't really in circulation at all over turns of that point in a second. +[2272.600 --> 2289.600] But basically we can combine all these different attractor landscapes to really get a bird's eye picture of these sort of dynamics of spatial conceptualization as a function of people's competence with those specific left and right ego vocab terms. +[2289.600 --> 2297.600] So individual differences in competence with ego vocab are plotted along the vertical axis. +[2297.600 --> 2302.600] And then the particular frame of reference you're using in gesture is plotted along the x axis. +[2302.600 --> 2309.600] And so what this is showing is you have these, you know, these two attractors for these. +[2309.600 --> 2322.600] You're really, really bad with ego vocab. So maybe you're living in a community where those terms don't exist at all sort of our models predicting that basically there's just one attractor and that's allocentric for these in between cases. +[2322.600 --> 2330.600] And that's actually sort of the people that we caught in this community where bilingualism is rampant. We have two attractors sort of the blue and the red. +[2330.600 --> 2351.600] And as competence with egocentric vocabulary increases that allocentric attractor basically disappears. And I think it's kind of similar to what we have, for instance, in, you know, in the US where it would be very, very unusual for someone to retell a story maintaining cardinal directions in their gesture. +[2351.600 --> 2357.600] And this is a three dimensional plot of that just because I think that's cool. +[2357.600 --> 2367.600] Okay. So so here we have all these different time skills happening simultaneously in this really beautiful way. +[2367.600 --> 2374.600] So on the sort of the cultural level you have competence with ego vocab. +[2374.600 --> 2384.600] Sorry, that's sort of developing over developmental time. Right. So that's one person developing competence with egocentric vocab that then determines. +[2384.600 --> 2389.600] And then you can cause a language here, even it's just an associate but like indulge me. +[2389.600 --> 2399.600] So what's happening over the mental time is then causing these moment to moment interactive dynamics of how people are gesturing in their hands. +[2399.600 --> 2410.600] And the cool thing now is that we can sort of zoom out to this cultural level and actually start asking, okay, what are the dynamics of language change? +[2410.600 --> 2416.600] So a bit of background on his Mesopotec. So in this Mesopotec Biga can mean left of. +[2416.600 --> 2423.600] So that's sort of egocentric term that exists. But that's, you know, a relatively recent extension. +[2423.600 --> 2427.600] So originally I referred to left side body parts. +[2427.600 --> 2434.600] The word for right of derichy was actually borrowed again fairly recently from Spanish. +[2434.600 --> 2445.600] And so we have the sort of cultural time scale where these egocentric terms seem to be sort of becoming more and more available within this linguistic community. +[2445.600 --> 2456.600] And making it possible actually possible for people to sort of master these then with this cascade going down to how they're addressing a much shorter time scale. +[2456.600 --> 2463.600] And sort of just we actually haven't talked about that because they changed your slides. +[2463.600 --> 2467.600] How do I want to say this instead? Okay, great. Let's say this. +[2467.600 --> 2476.600] So this is a case where the story I want to tell is that this sort of slow cultural process where new lexical distinctions became available. +[2476.600 --> 2484.600] And then sort of had an influence over developmental time on how people sort of master those terms, which shaped how they were act during moment to moment. +[2484.600 --> 2490.600] And we could sort of zoom out and talk about the availability of those frames of reference sort of simplicity. +[2490.600 --> 2497.600] And that's probably happening over evolutionary time. Right. So these frames of reference are shared with other animal species. +[2497.600 --> 2501.600] And so here the direction is really going from language. +[2501.600 --> 2507.600] Sort of particular words, shaping how people are thinking of the things. +[2507.600 --> 2513.600] But as I said at the start, within these cognitive ecologies, mutual dependence is the rule. +[2513.600 --> 2526.600] And let me illustrate that by sort of turning to another to me rather exotic exotic tribe, which is the US military. +[2526.600 --> 2536.600] And the thing to note here, sort of recall that I started off by showing that people gesture left to right for time. +[2536.600 --> 2540.600] We have these timelines that go left to right from time. +[2540.600 --> 2545.600] But we actually don't talk about time is going from left to right. Right. +[2545.600 --> 2551.600] So, you know, if I were talking about sort of the informal discussions with grad students could be having a talk. +[2551.600 --> 2557.600] And I'm not going to be like, you know, in an hour and 15 minutes to the right of now. +[2557.600 --> 2568.600] That's just not how English works. And it turns out until recently, there was no attested languages around the world that actually used that lateral language to talk about time. +[2568.600 --> 2579.600] Despite the ubiquity of cultural artifacts, cultural practices gesture and the sort of behavioral reaction time evidence showing that people do in fact think about things. +[2579.600 --> 2584.600] And that's not about time and number along that left to right access. +[2584.600 --> 2589.600] Okay, that is until recently. +[2589.600 --> 2608.600] So my colleague rose Hendrix, travel to San Antonio, Texas with his military base, where we'd heard rumors that there was a new conventionalized systematic set of metaphors for talking spatially about time that look like this. +[2608.600 --> 2617.600] So we'd heard that it was actually unmarked for folks to say the meeting was moved two days to the left from Friday to Wednesday. +[2617.600 --> 2626.600] And so we tried to look at the systematically. And so we gave people a whole bunch of phrases like this, where things were sort of on the scale of days. +[2626.600 --> 2631.600] We also sort of asked them about phrases on the scale of months sort of nuclear bunch of things. +[2631.600 --> 2649.600] And basically the takeaway is that civilians, so that's the red bump. They could make sense of those. So they didn't say they're completely nonsense on grammatical, but they certainly weren't as acceptable as something like two days earlier, instead of two to the left. +[2649.600 --> 2657.600] Enlisted officers, sorry, enlisted personnel. So those are sort of folks are sort of more working on the front lines of battle, for instance. +[2657.600 --> 2668.600] They were more valuable, but basically said that saying something like two days to the left is just as good as saying two days earlier. +[2668.600 --> 2675.600] And officers in particular, there were quite systematic in saying like, oh yeah, this is just the way it works. +[2675.600 --> 2686.600] Like that's how like, you know, why wouldn't you say it that way? That's now become sort of a conventionalized part of the variety of English spoken in the US military. +[2686.600 --> 2696.600] Okay, so here we have evidence of the first time of one lateral spatial language being used to talk about time, which I think is like really, really cool. +[2696.600 --> 2704.600] Two, note that the direction of causal influence. So again, this is not an experiment, so we're not sure, but sort of allow me to speculate here. +[2704.600 --> 2721.600] The causal direction is the opposite from what we saw in is Missabetic speakers were there, the emergence of these new left and right terms in the language seem to be driving how people were +[2721.600 --> 2735.600] trying to test, especially at also in memory, because we tested their memory by conceptualizing space in that case here, it seems to be going from, you know, maybe how people are conceptualizing time in their heads, maybe how they're just around about it, maybe the artifacts to the language. +[2735.600 --> 2744.600] So it's the opposite direction. So again, if the sort of reciprocal mutual influence is really the rule here in these cognitive colleges. +[2744.600 --> 2748.600] And I ask like why now and why this group. +[2748.600 --> 2754.600] So without any evidence, I'll speculate because I'm the speaker, so I'm allowed to. +[2754.600 --> 2767.600] And so one one sort of, you know, provocative thing here is that officers in the US military, and this is my understanding, I actually haven't spent much time studying the US military. +[2767.600 --> 2781.600] So a lot of the responsibility involves these duty rosters, which are basically like Excel spreadsheets that lay out from left to right, what everyone's going to be doing at various times. +[2781.600 --> 2786.600] And so it's an example one. And so here you notice that time is really going from left to right. +[2786.600 --> 2793.600] So one, there is this really central material artifact that seems to structure a lot of the activity. +[2793.600 --> 2797.600] And I imagine as a target of a lot of sort of interactive conversation. +[2797.600 --> 2805.600] So one could be this cognitive artifact. The other thing to note is this is a relatively small and insular linguistic community. +[2805.600 --> 2817.600] And so I think the size of the linguistic group and the presence of this highly stable cognitive artifact, which again, I mean the cognitive artifact here, this material artifact is stable on cultural time. +[2817.600 --> 2829.600] It might be the sort of the perfect storm to allow this new linguistic convention to become established in a conventionalized way in this community. +[2829.600 --> 2832.600] Okay. +[2832.600 --> 2839.600] So one of notice I've sort of been struggling with causal language throughout because these are often snapshots, right? +[2839.600 --> 2844.600] We like hear about the US military. We go it turns out they've already sort of transitioned to doing this. +[2844.600 --> 2849.600] We can use natural variability in in. +[2849.600 --> 2860.600] We'll have come Mexico, the sort of look at the association between language and gesture and thought, but we can't actually sort of go in and manipulate their language. +[2860.600 --> 2867.600] Someone with the you know, and so to get some experimental quantitative traction. +[2867.600 --> 2884.600] And with my colleagues, testervohofe and Chana Coulson and Esther Walker, we've tried to bring these sort of long time scale cultural and developmental changes into the lab. +[2884.600 --> 2888.600] How do we do that? +[2888.600 --> 2900.600] And so here's here's the thing that we try to bring into the lab, which is that we have a credible range of ways of talking about time with some pretty fine distinction. +[2900.600 --> 2904.600] So we can talk about second day and year so that that's varying in duration. +[2904.600 --> 2906.600] We talk about now past future. +[2906.600 --> 2916.600] So these are called, you know, dietic distinctions because it's time relative to now, past and future, before and after, which are sequential relations. +[2916.600 --> 2921.600] So you can say like tomorrow, day after, last year, year before. +[2921.600 --> 2928.600] Now in English and a lot of languages, these are often. +[2928.600 --> 2933.600] So duration sequence, type of relations are often talked about using spatial language. +[2933.600 --> 2944.600] So we can talk about a short meeting, a long meeting, talking about looking forward to the past, looking forward to the future, thinking back to the past. +[2944.600 --> 2949.600] True cross cross cultural is a pretty common pattern to use space. +[2949.600 --> 2959.600] And what we tried to do is capture the cultural process of the negotiation and conventionalization of these spatial metaphors for time in the lab. +[2959.600 --> 2968.600] And we did this with a novel two player communication game where we brought people into the lab and these diets were split so they're in separate rooms. +[2968.600 --> 2976.600] They couldn't see each other communicate except through their computers, which were wired together. +[2976.600 --> 2980.600] But they couldn't send text messages to each other. Okay, this is all they can do. +[2980.600 --> 2986.600] So one player would get a target meeting they had to communicate like year before. +[2986.600 --> 2994.600] And then they had to record a spatial message that varied only on the vertical axis. +[2994.600 --> 3001.600] Okay, so they could only send a basically a vertical spatial signal. And that's what this looked like. So they would click record. +[3001.600 --> 3008.600] And I think it was set so all the signals were five seconds long exactly five seconds or plus or minus and like that. +[3008.600 --> 3013.600] They touched this touch screen bubble bar move their finger up and down or they get a hold their finger in one place. +[3013.600 --> 3016.600] This is recorded. +[3016.600 --> 3023.600] They would then send that to the other room. The person would be like, oh, you got a signal. +[3023.600 --> 3029.600] Subject actually, I think really like playing this like they know when it was rage quitting halfway. It was kind of a fun fun game. +[3029.600 --> 3035.600] And then the message the vertical signal that was recording the other room was played back to them again on the screen. +[3035.600 --> 3042.600] And then they had to say like, what did the person mean? And they were given all of these options day before tomorrow, before year after. +[3042.600 --> 3048.600] And they had to sort of pick amongst them and at the beginning they were mostly wrong. +[3048.600 --> 3055.600] So the partner in that case meant year before, but actually we meant last year, which is a fairly fine distinction, right? +[3055.600 --> 3061.600] It's a distinction between, you know, sequential relations and these sort of like a dietic past which relations. +[3061.600 --> 3063.600] They got feedback. +[3063.600 --> 3067.600] The amazing thing is that people pretty quickly got quite good at this. +[3067.600 --> 3079.600] And they got good because they developed. They sort of negotiated the shared conventions for using different aspects of space to communicate about different aspects of time. +[3079.600 --> 3092.600] So one of the things that we saw across all diets and very, very early in the session is that they were systematically using spatial extent to communicate about temporal duration. +[3092.600 --> 3102.600] And they are visualizing a signal as a time series. So the horizontal axis is time and the vertical axis is where their finger is on that bubble bar. +[3102.600 --> 3109.600] And so here, for instance, the very first signal here is basically they just put their finger right in the middle and they moved it up a bit. +[3109.600 --> 3113.600] The one at the very bottom is someone to put their finger in the middle. They sort of wiggle a bit. +[3113.600 --> 3118.600] This is how people communicated about second. +[3118.600 --> 3126.600] And here's a sample of how three people communicate three diets communicated about year. +[3126.600 --> 3140.600] And this was sort of an inviolable association where everyone sort of settled very, very early on on this use of spatial extent along this vertical axis and temporal duration. +[3140.600 --> 3147.600] To communicate about past and future, people actually arrived at fairly idiosyncratic and divergent strategies. +[3147.600 --> 3157.600] So here, these are two diets. So the top diets for communicated about the past. They would sort of start at the top and then move their finger down. That was past. +[3157.600 --> 3165.600] Future, start at the bottom, move it up. And you can see both diets, very similar signals. +[3165.600 --> 3173.600] Other teams did the exact opposite. Right. So for them, the past involved going up and the future involved going down and staying down there. +[3173.600 --> 3181.600] So we see this split, which in some ways is really similar to the split we see between, you know, English speakers who talk about the past and in front of them. +[3181.600 --> 3188.600] And I'm our speakers in the Chilean and East who talk about the past as being behind. +[3188.600 --> 3194.600] Whatever I said, just imagine, but the right way. Right. So you get this cross cultural distinction. +[3194.600 --> 3202.600] That we sort of reproduce in the sort of compressed cultural interaction time scale in the lab. +[3202.600 --> 3208.600] We also had really cool compositionality. So here's how one diet. +[3208.600 --> 3216.600] So, uh, signaled year before would be like here and then down and then there. +[3216.600 --> 3220.600] And to do year before and year after they would combine those into compose signals. +[3220.600 --> 3231.600] And notice this is actually the opposite order that you get in English. So it's not just people are completely, you know, one to one translating from their native language into the spatial language. +[3231.600 --> 3236.600] So here before they actually start off by doing before the single before followed by year. +[3236.600 --> 3242.600] So there does seem to be some interesting and dodging as dynamics of the spatial language emerging. +[3242.600 --> 3245.600] I'm not going to get the details because we're still analyzing it. +[3245.600 --> 3260.600] But we also then took what these pairs of people negotiate and calculate together and then put that into an iterated transmission paradigm where you take what one pair does at the end of the session of about an hour. +[3260.600 --> 3265.600] And you feed that to the next pair that comes into the lab as sort of a starter a seed. +[3265.600 --> 3268.600] And we say, here's what two other people did do with that as you will. +[3268.600 --> 3270.600] And we say this, do this move and over again. +[3270.600 --> 3273.600] In some cases these chains collapsed. +[3273.600 --> 3280.600] But in, um, but in some cases, we actually got incredibly systematic systems emerging over these multiple generations. +[3280.600 --> 3290.600] And one way that people talk about these generations in the lab in these kind of iterated transmission cases is as reproducing actual linguistic generations over cultural time. +[3290.600 --> 3297.600] May or may not be a fair comparison, but here's one system that people developed after eight generations. +[3297.600 --> 3306.600] And so these people were actually 100% accurate in their communication and notice it's, you know, highly systematic, right? +[3306.600 --> 3317.600] And we have before and past future and after being communicated in these subtly different ways using these spatial dynamics. +[3317.600 --> 3318.600] Okay. +[3318.600 --> 3319.600] I'm not okay. +[3319.600 --> 3322.600] I'm not even again into this, but I'm just going to flag if you want to talk with us. +[3322.600 --> 3327.600] We then took these signals and fed them to people while we measure their brain waves. +[3327.600 --> 3330.600] And to get down to this sort of neural system. +[3330.600 --> 3331.600] Great. +[3331.600 --> 3337.600] 400 to p600. There's interesting type of dynamics asking about that afterwards. +[3337.600 --> 3349.600] But basically, so we're trying to do sort of this, you know, cultural time scale dynamics, the developmental time skill dynamics, the people interacting these down to the neural time scale dynamics, all the controlled way. +[3349.600 --> 3351.600] And if you have questions about that, we can talk about that afterwards. +[3351.600 --> 3358.600] But the takeaway here is that, you know, when cognitive ecology is changed, they're constrained over multiple time skills. +[3358.600 --> 3361.600] And these time skills are shaping each other. +[3361.600 --> 3366.600] So, you know, this association between duration and length might be a neat. +[3366.600 --> 3369.600] And this seems to be shaping this cultural evolution. +[3369.600 --> 3375.600] And also, I did show you the data, but also the short time skill brain responses were right from the beginning of these sessions. +[3375.600 --> 3384.600] People's brain waves, the brain response seem to reveal that violations of this association between duration length seem like salient semantic violations. +[3384.600 --> 3398.600] And if you know sort of a bit of the language and neuroscience literature, we don't end of 400, which you also get for violations of sort of semantically anomalous words and written or spoken sentences. +[3398.600 --> 3402.600] And, and that's about the brain waves stuff. +[3402.600 --> 3403.600] We won't talk about that. +[3403.600 --> 3405.600] Okay. +[3405.600 --> 3408.600] What have I tried to argue today? +[3408.600 --> 3413.600] I just want to argue that abstract thought sure it happens in our brains. +[3413.600 --> 3416.600] I'm not brain brains are great. I love brains. +[3416.600 --> 3418.600] I'm a cognitive scientist brains are great. +[3418.600 --> 3421.600] But they're not the only thing. +[3421.600 --> 3424.600] And these other things matters too. +[3424.600 --> 3433.600] And all these different facets, material artifacts, cultural practices, norms of gestural communication. +[3433.600 --> 3436.600] And these are all involved physical morphology. +[3436.600 --> 3442.600] These are all connected in rich distributed cognitive ecologies. +[3442.600 --> 3449.600] And these cognitive colleges are made up of heterogeneous parts that relate to each other. +[3449.600 --> 3452.600] And biorectionally causal ways. +[3452.600 --> 3462.600] So in sort of arguing that we move away from maybe classic warfin stories where it's like, oh, language is shaping how you think they really want to sort of have a much more nuanced story of how all these things are shaping each other. +[3462.600 --> 3465.600] Including how material artifacts shape the way we think. +[3465.600 --> 3470.600] And also the way we think shapes the kinds of material artifacts that we're producing. +[3470.600 --> 3472.600] And I think this is the critical point. +[3472.600 --> 3481.600] And maybe the one takeaway that I would love for you to remember of this talk is that these different facets have their own characteristic time scales. +[3481.600 --> 3488.600] So our morphology changes on a very, very long time scale also shaped over development. +[3488.600 --> 3499.600] And based on culture, but it's sort of a much longer time scale than the time scale at which we develop sort of implicit mental associations, which are quite malleable and changing our very short time scale. +[3499.600 --> 3501.600] And this matters, right. +[3501.600 --> 3513.600] The fact that material artifacts, sort of graphical representations of time and number along timelines or number lines are actually material. +[3513.600 --> 3518.600] And sort of immutable mobiles to sort of steal a term for brutal tour that matters, right. +[3518.600 --> 3523.600] The materiality matters for the time scale at which these things are going to change. +[3523.600 --> 3537.600] And so I've argued that we sort of need to step away from this very unidirectional brain centered approach towards sort of this richer ecological approach where things are shaping each other and biorectional ways. +[3537.600 --> 3541.600] So in final thoughts before we switch to Q&A. +[3541.600 --> 3549.600] So one thing that's buys us is a whole set of new metaphors that we can borrow from ecology to think about stability and change in these systems. +[3549.600 --> 3559.600] And so one idea that ecologists have is that ecosystems, ecological assemblies have keystone species that really drive the dynamics of the entire ecology. +[3559.600 --> 3565.600] And you can then ask, what's the facet of this ecology that is sort of the keystone species of a cognitive ecology. +[3565.600 --> 3573.600] I think for a long time, you know, depends on who you ask, people might think it's the language you speak or what's happening in your brain. +[3573.600 --> 3578.600] But this ecological perspective invites us to think about how different ecologies might operate differently. +[3578.600 --> 3581.600] How they might have different keystone species. +[3581.600 --> 3594.600] So that, for instance, if you're in a community with formal education, rich practices of literacy and graphical representation, those might really matter for regimenting the sort of entire ecological assembly. +[3594.600 --> 3603.600] But if you're not one of those communities, things like gesture might matter more. And there was some evidence from folks like Olivier Luguin. +[3603.600 --> 3614.600] Also, Levinson's argued this in the past that gesture might be one of the vessels by which cultural norms are transmitted. +[3614.600 --> 3617.600] Yeah, so that's one thing that buys you. +[3617.600 --> 3627.600] The other thing is that alignment is an accomplishment, not a given. So the fact that we talk about time in one way and we gesture, we have artifacts that are all sort of fitting together. +[3627.600 --> 3634.600] You don't get that for free by a brain thinking in one way and then like, you know, timelines don't work the way they do. +[3634.600 --> 3640.600] We don't sort of lay timelines out left to right because I as a personal person, happened to think of time is going from left to right. +[3640.600 --> 3655.600] It's like that because there's a long history of graphical practices and we can sort of ask about the processes that bring these into alignment as we captured in this US military case where for the longest time language wasn't aligned with gesture and material practices. +[3655.600 --> 3663.600] But then we saw how that happened and we can ask, okay, what are the context in which is alignment occurs. +[3663.600 --> 3677.600] And then last, I just want to return to my known up my late known up who I love very much, who you know had a strong visceral rejected response of like, oh, those people are idiots. +[3677.600 --> 3692.600] And I think there's something really deep here, which tells us about, you know, these ecologies, you can sort of think of these sort of larger cultural practices as ecologies, but you also think of individual thought as niche logical system and how stability operates there. +[3692.600 --> 3710.600] So you can think of my known as her own sort of little ecology that's highly stable on how she thinks about time and sort of just flagging this in other work, I've adopted this sort of distributed ecological perspective to think about stability and change on the scale of the individual. +[3711.600 --> 3727.600] So looking at jazz improvisation as a distributed practice of interaction that exhibits, you know, long periods of stability when they sort of settle into interesting sound worlds, but then suddenly they'll improvise a leap to a completely new set of melodies that they're playing. +[3727.600 --> 3730.600] So adopting an ecological perspective there. +[3730.600 --> 3748.600] I've used this particular thing about mathematical and scientific insight and discovery as like math experts are working on proofs and lately have started to think about whether this can give us insight into the stability of religious thought and also moments of certain conversion like solve then Paul on the road to Damascus. +[3748.600 --> 3759.600] And so this sort of distributed complex systems perspective offering us tools for thinking about stability and change across scales in these ecological assemblies of thought. +[3760.600 --> 3763.600] Okay, so we're at the end. +[3763.600 --> 3767.600] So that was a history of our times and our spaces and our numbers. +[3768.600 --> 3782.600] And what I hope you'll take away is that understanding change on these different timescales and the interactions between these timescales might help us understand why conceptualization often looks the same across cultures, but also looks really different. +[3782.600 --> 3790.600] Why cognitive colleges resist change and are highly stable and also why they sometimes do change. +[3790.600 --> 3801.600] And so much for your patients and for the people on video for your nodding faces that was very encouraging to have some visual feedback. Thank you. +[3801.600 --> 3804.600] Thank you so much Tyler. +[3804.600 --> 3812.600] Thanks for a great talk. Feel free to unmute yourselves if you'd like to thank Tyler. +[3812.600 --> 3832.600] And so now that that was fantastic. Let us move to the Q and A and what I will do is I will I will call on people and I would ask that you use the raising hand function, the blue hand which you can find under the participant section at the bottom of your screen. +[3832.600 --> 3839.600] And I will just ask people list of people who raised hands and then call them. +[3839.600 --> 3850.600] Who would like to ask the first question. +[3850.600 --> 3865.600] So thanks Tyler. That was really, really fascinating and elegantly presented also. I have a number of remarks and speculations going from the kind of. +[3865.600 --> 3878.600] I think that's why we say mundane to maybe the more conceptual. So at the mundane level, I noticed on your map that of your Atlas project, which sounds great that you didn't have any Caribbean sites. +[3878.600 --> 3888.600] And I just direct you to the anthropologist Kevin birth, who has spent much of his career working on conceptions of time and Trinidad. +[3888.600 --> 3902.600] I can't say I know his corpus well, but you may find useful information there. Secondly, I kind of a pedantic concern with regard to the will hawk and work. +[3902.600 --> 3926.600] So in much of the work you were you're very careful to put you know caveats on claims of causality. But you made some pretty strong claims with regard to the will hawk and work about how acquisition of the language tools, then shaped people's responses in the test. +[3926.600 --> 3941.600] At least in the abstract and alternative possibility is that the extent to which people easily acquire a language is in part determined by whatever cognitive tools they bring to that learning experience. +[3941.600 --> 3956.600] So it could be the case that individuals who have a more allocentric orientation to start with are more comfortable speaking is not that hot and less comfortable speaking Spanish and acquire Spanish less well as a consequence of that. +[3956.600 --> 3967.600] And the converse is true for individuals who come to that learning interaction with a prior that more strongly privileges the egocentric orientation. +[3967.600 --> 3984.600] I think that's implausible. I think your causal explanation is likely, especially if we accept the cognitive ecology perspective that you're presenting, which I'm very glad to see you doing by the way. +[3984.600 --> 4005.600] And the case happens in certain research between the hate andエ иноч proximal sense because there's a lot that lifelong debate and and opponents and could haven't published 50 facts, supuesto dog's and evidence orzag & sometimes Church anti- debt relays that is and not to mention promotion of çek. +[4005.600 --> 4011.320] But you're sort of concluding thoughts. +[4011.320 --> 4017.120] It seems to me that that ecological perspective, one interesting location where you might +[4017.120 --> 4029.200] see the ecology settling on an equilibrium, if you will, right, is when there are conflicts +[4029.200 --> 4032.680] between different conceptual mappings. +[4032.680 --> 4037.920] So in English, magnitude is vertical, right? +[4037.920 --> 4040.520] More is up, less is down. +[4040.520 --> 4047.200] And we see that in your speakers go all the way to 11, right? +[4047.200 --> 4054.200] I mean, the numbers go up and the dial turns up. +[4054.200 --> 4062.640] That works really well for technology where the function and the extent of operation +[4062.640 --> 4066.720] are aligned, like a furnace, okay? +[4066.720 --> 4070.360] So we say, turn the temperature up, turn the furnace up. +[4070.360 --> 4071.360] It's doing the same thing. +[4071.360 --> 4072.840] The furnace is working harder. +[4072.840 --> 4074.600] The temperature is increasing. +[4074.600 --> 4079.600] Both of those are an increase in elevation on that vertical axis. +[4079.600 --> 4081.600] But it doesn't work for air conditioning, right? +[4081.600 --> 4086.560] And people are often confused about how to describe what they want done to the air conditioning. +[4086.560 --> 4090.080] They say, turn the air conditioning up in which case it's working harder. +[4090.080 --> 4091.600] But the temperature is going down. +[4091.600 --> 4095.520] Or do they say turn the air conditioning down in which case it's working harder and the +[4095.520 --> 4096.520] temperature is going down. +[4096.520 --> 4099.520] That is which of those two do they privilege? +[4099.520 --> 4106.440] And I think I'm not certain about this, but I think in English as spoken in Japan, they +[4106.440 --> 4112.280] have resolved that by it's just the magnitude of function. +[4112.280 --> 4117.080] So turning the air conditioner up is making the air conditioner work harder. +[4117.080 --> 4120.040] Turning the furnace up is making the furnace work harder. +[4120.040 --> 4125.880] And this sometimes causes confusion in American tourists in Japan where they don't understand +[4125.880 --> 4128.760] that in fact it's all one system as it were, right? +[4128.760 --> 4131.960] There's only one thermostat. +[4131.960 --> 4138.200] So it strikes me that how we negotiate that vertical dimension in American English is still +[4138.200 --> 4140.560] being determined, right? +[4140.560 --> 4145.000] Graphical interfaces for digital thermostats have up and down on them, right? +[4145.000 --> 4148.280] How people talk about it doesn't yet fully reflect that. +[4148.280 --> 4150.280] That's great. +[4150.280 --> 4151.280] Thank you, Dan. +[4151.280 --> 4153.320] Yes, I'll look up Kevin. +[4153.320 --> 4161.120] Yeah, so the map of Atlas to take your questions in order, map of Atlas very much in progress +[4161.120 --> 4165.560] and very open to suggestions. +[4165.560 --> 4170.000] And I mean, the idea eventually is to have a public website where people can then, you +[4170.000 --> 4173.160] know, scholars can be like, here's what I've done. +[4173.160 --> 4178.240] And we'll have a little form interface that they'll be able to fill out to add themselves +[4178.240 --> 4179.480] to this data bank. +[4179.480 --> 4182.480] But I'll get Kevin birth. +[4182.480 --> 4184.240] Okay, your point about Wohaka. +[4184.240 --> 4191.680] I'm actually, I mean, I think you're more dismissive of your proposal than I am that the +[4191.680 --> 4196.440] direction of causality might be reversed. +[4196.440 --> 4200.400] Other ways in which the direction of causality could be reversed, for instance, was that, +[4200.400 --> 4205.400] you know, there was a lot of diversity in people's professions in this community. +[4205.400 --> 4209.560] So it could be that, you know, you get a particular kind of job, like you said, maybe because +[4209.560 --> 4214.120] you have a particular set of spatial predispositions. +[4214.120 --> 4218.880] And you know, if you're the delivery guy for Coca-Cola truck and your directions are given +[4218.880 --> 4222.680] to you in egocentric terms or allocentric terms, I could see it going either way, that then +[4222.680 --> 4228.160] drives you to master those terms, sort of setting up this correlation between them. +[4228.160 --> 4232.400] And so yeah, I mean, I sort of borrowed that's causal language at time. +[4232.400 --> 4233.600] I tried not to that. +[4233.600 --> 4236.720] I think that's part of sort of my background, I'm sort of like linguistic relative to +[4236.720 --> 4243.080] view debate, where really sort of like language first, very open to sort of mutual constraint +[4243.080 --> 4247.200] between language and gesture or language and memory. +[4247.200 --> 4249.560] So yeah, totally open to that. +[4249.560 --> 4254.760] This last point that you made about ecology settling into equilibrium, which I love the +[4254.760 --> 4257.920] way you put that, when there's a conflict. +[4257.920 --> 4260.000] I think it's also spot on. +[4260.000 --> 4265.640] And another reason that I didn't mention why it may have been the US military that were +[4265.640 --> 4275.960] pressured to adopt this lateral set of metaphors is to remove the ambiguity of sort of the +[4275.960 --> 4281.040] ahead, back, forward language that we had for time. +[4281.040 --> 4286.040] And so in cognitive psychology, there's this classic question, the ambiguous time question, +[4286.040 --> 4290.120] where you ask people, you say, you know, Wednesday's meeting has been pushed ahead two +[4290.120 --> 4291.120] days. +[4291.120 --> 4292.120] When is it now? +[4292.120 --> 4294.480] And you know, half people say Monday, half to say Friday. +[4294.480 --> 4299.400] So again, you have that ahead language, which is spatial, but depending sort of the story +[4299.400 --> 4304.400] goes on whether you conceptualize yourself as moving through time or yourself as static +[4304.400 --> 4307.680] events, you actually sort of interpret that differently. +[4307.680 --> 4311.880] That's really, really bad if you're, you know, planning an invasion or something. +[4311.880 --> 4314.080] You probably want to get the exact day right. +[4314.080 --> 4319.440] And one nice thing about the left and right language is it's entirely unambiguous. +[4319.440 --> 4325.640] And so I think that that removing that ambiguity that you get when there are conflicts might +[4325.640 --> 4328.280] be critical there. +[4328.280 --> 4333.680] And the other thing that you sort of touched on is the sort of material artifacts where +[4333.680 --> 4337.840] sometimes we sort of use spatial language that align with material artifacts that we have. +[4337.840 --> 4343.120] And I think one of the reasons why we're sort of really struggling with this AC issue is +[4343.120 --> 4348.200] because the material artifact is so stable with the up and down, but like everyone has +[4348.200 --> 4349.320] that in their home. +[4349.320 --> 4355.080] And I think this is, you know, even more fodder for this argument that the time scale of +[4355.080 --> 4361.520] stability of material artifacts really, really matters for regimenting change on these +[4361.520 --> 4366.000] linguistic and also cognitive time scales. +[4366.000 --> 4369.960] And so, you know, if we didn't all have AC units with up and down buttons or dials, +[4369.960 --> 4377.360] we might be sort of much better able to sort of adopt this Japanese variety of English +[4377.360 --> 4378.360] strategy. +[4378.360 --> 4381.560] Yeah, it was my response is there. +[4381.560 --> 4382.560] Thank you. +[4382.560 --> 4383.560] Thanks, Tyler. +[4383.560 --> 4387.960] Okay, so our next questions will be from Andrew and then from Maddie. +[4387.960 --> 4391.720] Hi, first off, thanks for a super, super interesting talk. +[4391.720 --> 4396.040] I'm going to be at the question and answer or the like student meeting a little bit later. +[4396.040 --> 4401.080] And I'd love to pick your brain in even greater depth. +[4401.080 --> 4408.680] But I wanted to focus my question now on some of the zap attack data that you had talked +[4408.680 --> 4411.320] about. +[4411.320 --> 4420.720] And thanks sort of specifically about this notion that Dan brought up about equilibria. +[4420.720 --> 4429.720] So in the data you presented, like mastery of the terms for left and right was the primary +[4429.720 --> 4438.760] determinant and whether or not your gestures were mapping egocentrically or alicentrically. +[4438.760 --> 4445.120] And I guess I was just there are a number of questions that are sort of folded into what +[4445.120 --> 4452.840] I'm thinking about here, but I guess what I'm wondering is to what extent do you think +[4452.840 --> 4463.000] it is the case that you know, they're sort of a structured relationship between the +[4463.000 --> 4468.200] frames of reference that we can use or is it the case that we sort of tend to default +[4468.200 --> 4474.120] to one and having these terms facilitates arrival at this one point of equilibrium as +[4474.120 --> 4482.560] opposed to another or are we capable of sort of housing within our brains these multiple +[4482.560 --> 4490.160] frames of reference and there's just something about like, you know, like the languages +[4490.160 --> 4498.280] that are being spoken there are not without sort of other associations and you know, there's +[4498.280 --> 4501.200] prestige dialects and non-presege dialects and things like that. +[4501.200 --> 4511.720] And so how much of the resultant use of egocentric frames of reference is reflecting this sort +[4511.720 --> 4519.960] of you prioritize one map versus demonstrating something about your mastery of this term that +[4519.960 --> 4523.280] is derived from a prestige dialect. +[4524.280 --> 4527.600] Yeah, those are great and another sort of great questions. +[4527.600 --> 4529.280] Thanks for that. +[4529.280 --> 4538.160] The first thing I want to say just for completeness sake is that we found the same effects of left +[4538.160 --> 4544.720] right egocentric mastery not just on gestory but also on a memory task, sort of like a classic +[4544.720 --> 4548.160] animals arrangement, rearrangement task. +[4548.160 --> 4551.920] So just like that this isn't just within the communicative domain. +[4551.920 --> 4555.080] It does seem to be there's something special about that relationship between his left +[4555.080 --> 4559.800] and right terms and how people are adopting these frames of reference non-communicatively +[4559.800 --> 4560.800] and non-enspeach. +[4560.800 --> 4563.120] So just want to flag that. +[4563.120 --> 4567.480] Yeah. +[4567.480 --> 4575.920] So there's some evidence that like I'm like not super compelled by but I think it's kind +[4575.920 --> 4582.820] of interesting that non human primates seem to preferentially adopt an aloe centric +[4582.820 --> 4587.560] frame of reference in various kinds of problem solving tasks where they're trying to search +[4587.560 --> 4589.720] for food. +[4589.720 --> 4593.840] And there's also some very, very recent sort of just in the last couple of years evidence +[4593.840 --> 4603.560] that human children when presented with spatial terms that could mean either have an aloe +[4603.560 --> 4609.520] centric or an egocentric meaning seem to default to at least at the beginning starting +[4609.520 --> 4613.720] with an aloe centric interpretation even in the US. +[4613.720 --> 4617.920] So that's worked by Peggy Lee and Daniel Haughna's the work who's done this sort of non human +[4617.920 --> 4619.560] primate stuff. +[4619.560 --> 4624.600] So that's just that there might actually be a starting point as you put it which is sort +[4624.600 --> 4627.280] of a non body based aloe centric frame of reference. +[4627.280 --> 4631.160] I'm not super convinced that that's the end of the story but it is kind of interesting +[4631.160 --> 4637.000] that that really goes against hundreds of years of Western philosophical speculation +[4637.000 --> 4645.600] of the egocentric body based reference as really being the starting point for then +[4645.600 --> 4652.280] elaboration and transformation by a bunch of cultural praxis in advanced civilization. +[4652.280 --> 4658.920] So that's sort of interesting and that does seem to be the pattern that if we use my +[4658.920 --> 4664.240] non causal non temporal data for mohaka but interpret it causally and temporally seems +[4664.240 --> 4668.040] to be the story that we're getting there where people before the advent the introduction +[4668.040 --> 4672.320] of these left and right terms sort of aloe centric and there's nothing special about +[4672.320 --> 4676.400] those words that then drive people to the egocentric thing. +[4676.400 --> 4683.600] Having said that I totally think that these questions of prestige dialects or prestige +[4683.600 --> 4685.600] praxis are also going to matter. +[4685.600 --> 4692.840] And so one thing that I didn't touch on at all is power and prestige and that's going +[4692.840 --> 4699.680] to be absolutely critical for understanding how these heterogeneous ecologies become +[4699.680 --> 4704.720] stabilized and changed especially in these moments of contact. +[4704.720 --> 4710.720] So recall that it was the U.S. officers who seemed to have the most highly conventionalized +[4710.720 --> 4717.480] deployment of this lateral spatial language, probably not an accident, maybe an accident, +[4717.480 --> 4719.680] probably not an accident. +[4719.680 --> 4727.840] The fact that the sort of demographic shift that is ongoing in wahaka, Mexico is from +[4727.840 --> 4733.560] you know, ismizapitec dominance or violence, violence, bilingualism. +[4733.560 --> 4743.200] But two, I think what is now more common, which is basically Spanish dominant young people. +[4743.200 --> 4744.680] That's also not an accident, right? +[4744.680 --> 4747.720] That's a reflection of larger systems of power. +[4747.720 --> 4753.400] And so you're totally right that in understanding sort of the particular direction in which we +[4753.400 --> 4758.080] see change in these different facets, understanding power and prestige and privilege is going +[4758.080 --> 4760.440] to be absolutely central. +[4760.440 --> 4764.320] But I mean sort of return to my refrain. +[4764.320 --> 4770.000] Those influences are going to sort of matter on the particular time scales that are specific +[4770.000 --> 4772.040] to the particular facet, right? +[4772.040 --> 4778.400] So the change in material practices is going to be influenced by who has power and privilege +[4778.400 --> 4783.000] and prestige, but it's again going to be changing over the sort of the characteristic time +[4783.000 --> 4787.960] scale of change for material artifacts that we see. +[4787.960 --> 4792.440] Can I just ask one super quick follow up about all that? +[4792.440 --> 4793.440] Yeah. +[4793.440 --> 4798.480] So is there any data using like, I don't know, positron emission topography or something +[4798.480 --> 4805.760] like that that looks at changes in the extent to which it is effortful to process allocentric +[4805.760 --> 4807.840] versus egocentric communication. +[4807.840 --> 4814.840] So if I'm watching somebody do something egocentricly versus allocentrically is the frame of reference +[4814.840 --> 4822.520] that I use modulating the cognitive processing that I have to allocate to figuring out what +[4822.520 --> 4824.960] you're talking about. +[4824.960 --> 4832.080] So I don't know of anything that I don't know of any imaging or behavioral evidence that +[4832.080 --> 4834.840] one or the other is more difficult. +[4834.840 --> 4838.840] And I'm I would bet a large I would bet all my money. +[4838.840 --> 4846.920] So $75 that it really is going to depend on one, you know, the bigger context and what +[4846.920 --> 4847.920] you grew up. +[4847.920 --> 4851.920] But also the particular task that you're operating in the moment. +[4851.920 --> 4861.640] Because for instance, the most cap all caps weird US undergrad when asked for directions +[4861.640 --> 4868.520] on a large scale is, you know, 50, 50 good adopted egocentric or an allocentric frame of reference. +[4868.520 --> 4873.440] So you actually you do get allocentric frame of reference really naturally, you know, +[4873.440 --> 4878.200] I lived in LA for years and yeah, I would tell you, you know, you go east and west on +[4878.200 --> 4886.080] the whatever, you know, it's not like we're not able to inhabit these different alternative +[4886.080 --> 4887.920] spaces. +[4887.920 --> 4897.160] You know, I have multiple axes at my fingertips for communicating, gesturing, thinking about +[4897.160 --> 4898.720] time also. +[4898.720 --> 4904.240] So you know, these are sort of cohabitating within our schools and also sort of within the +[4904.240 --> 4905.240] larger ecology. +[4905.240 --> 4906.240] Great. +[4906.240 --> 4907.240] Thanks. +[4907.240 --> 4909.240] Our next question is from Maddie. +[4909.240 --> 4910.240] Hi, Maddie. +[4910.240 --> 4911.240] Oh, hi. +[4911.240 --> 4917.520] So, yeah, first off, thank you for your talk. +[4917.520 --> 4923.880] I really love what you're doing with this idea of cognitive ecology is I think that's +[4923.880 --> 4924.880] so important. +[4924.880 --> 4926.880] So important going forward. +[4926.880 --> 4931.040] I think about like you said that these interaction processes. +[4931.040 --> 4936.320] So I want to zoom in on like one particular thing and ask you a few more questions about +[4936.320 --> 4938.960] where you're going to go with it. +[4938.960 --> 4948.240] So I think what I heard you say is that your claims, this is something that has a +[4948.600 --> 4955.600] not other in other places in the country or did I? +[4955.600 --> 4963.560] So, um, when I said not anywhere else, I meant so I think it's actually sort of widespread +[4963.560 --> 4965.560] in the US military anecdotally. +[4965.560 --> 4966.840] I meant. +[4966.840 --> 4972.220] Now where else in all of the sort of like cross-languistic-cross cultural work outside +[4972.220 --> 4973.700] of the US military? +[4973.700 --> 4977.740] Do I know of any case where there's been a tested use of lateral language? +[4977.740 --> 4981.740] I would be very happy to hear of other cases, but no, I don't think it's 2020 at all. +[4981.740 --> 4985.740] We said it's 2020 for reasons of accident and location. +[4985.740 --> 4989.740] Thank you for that opportunity to clarify that. Yeah. +[4989.740 --> 4991.740] Yeah. Yeah. +[4991.740 --> 4999.740] So that's really interesting. I wonder if you're interested in going further in that direction. +[4999.740 --> 5003.740] But you could consider studying cadets, right? +[5003.740 --> 5012.740] So one thing about, you know, studying cadets is there's there's going to be variance and where those individuals are coming from, right? +[5012.740 --> 5018.740] So some of them are going to come from military families that might already be looking at. +[5018.740 --> 5024.740] Yeah, looking at things through the duty roster sort of format. +[5024.740 --> 5031.740] And so what I would like to consider is, um, okay, so my little brother is an ROTC. +[5031.740 --> 5036.740] And if I'm remembering correct, but he loves to, you know, call and complain about what's going on in his life. +[5036.740 --> 5042.740] And I think he's he's the individual is making duty rosters for for his group. +[5042.740 --> 5051.740] So this, you know, made me wonder like is is familiarity like literally the number of times that even engaged with this or had to create this sort of thing. +[5051.740 --> 5055.740] And I think that's going to be a, you know, detectable effect. +[5055.740 --> 5063.740] Another thing to think about is the extent to which individuals. +[5063.740 --> 5068.740] In the military are isolated or integrated with other individuals. +[5068.740 --> 5071.740] So what occurs to me is like West Point, for instance. +[5071.740 --> 5077.740] So, you know, if you're if you're going to school at West Point, you're all everything around you is military. +[5077.740 --> 5086.740] And you know, they get out there to marble falls and areas like that sometimes, but it's very like it's an intense thing. +[5086.740 --> 5094.740] Whereas a lot of ROTC programs, they're interacting with other people at the university and other individuals who might be. +[5094.740 --> 5098.740] I don't know utilizing different different systems. +[5098.740 --> 5102.740] So, and отк, yeah, I think I think that's it. +[5102.740 --> 5105.740] I'm not really a question. +[5105.740 --> 5107.740] Here you see here. +[5107.740 --> 5109.740] What you think about that. +[5109.740 --> 5115.740] And if you think that could be the sort of like, I don't know, longitudinal evidence that could help you adjudicate. +[5115.740 --> 5117.740] Between movies, different ideas. +[5117.740 --> 5119.740] That's fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. +[5119.740 --> 5128.740] Yeah. I mean, I would love to have that kind of longitudinal developmental data as, you know, new recruits are inculturated in in linguistic. +[5128.740 --> 5131.740] And I think that's actually very difficult data for me to get. +[5131.740 --> 5142.740] I think for anyone to get, but I'm definitely not situated to get that kind of data. +[5142.740 --> 5146.740] But I think you're totally right that looking at. +[5146.740 --> 5152.740] Cross community variability in integration versus isolation. +[5152.740 --> 5155.740] And so, you know, I think that's really, really important. +[5155.740 --> 5158.740] And so, you know, I think that's really important. +[5158.740 --> 5160.740] I think that's really important. +[5160.740 --> 5170.740] It's going to be a critical dimension of understanding whether, you know, as I speculated, one of the reasons why it seemed this seems sort of popped up in this particular linguistic community is the fact that the US military is a fairly. +[5170.740 --> 5171.740] Isolated linguistic community. +[5171.740 --> 5172.740] Clearly not completely. +[5172.740 --> 5176.740] But fairly linguistically, I say community within the US. +[5176.740 --> 5185.740] And so, you know, that's really important. +[5185.740 --> 5193.740] Rifting on what you said, I think another way to go is to look not at sort of the developmental process going in to this military. +[5193.740 --> 5197.740] But the dynamics of contact between the US military and, for instance, the Israeli military, where there's, you know, behavioral evidence from folks like Laura Borditsky. +[5197.740 --> 5200.740] That, you know, literally it. +[5200.740 --> 5203.740] Hebrew reading and writing. +[5203.740 --> 5211.020] really adults can sexualize time running right to left in direction of their literary practices, +[5213.100 --> 5220.060] practices of literacy, reading and writing. And so then it's sort of this interesting thing of +[5220.060 --> 5224.140] like, well, what happens? I mean, it's kind of similar to the AC question, right? What happens when +[5224.140 --> 5230.380] you have these conflicts? And I wonder if I thought of this even before we had this linguistic data, +[5230.380 --> 5235.900] like what happens just with the gestural practices? Do you have sort of these low level moments of +[5235.900 --> 5244.540] confusion in that contact between a left-right gestural practices for US military versus Israeli +[5244.540 --> 5248.700] military? Now it's even more explosive because it's in the language. And you know, I have all these +[5248.700 --> 5255.020] questions like, for instance, are US military officers sensitive to the fact that this is not just +[5255.980 --> 5264.700] now unambiguous, but wrong if you're speaking to an officer in the Israeli military. There was +[5264.700 --> 5271.660] some anecdotal evidence that something similar might have been happening in, in Wahaka, where +[5272.380 --> 5277.500] I didn't observe this, but I remember my colleague Melina McComsey who lived there for years. +[5277.500 --> 5282.860] She was the anthropologist who established this field. So talking about some moments of cross-generational +[5282.860 --> 5288.860] confusion, where younger people who, people thought were balanced by linguals, but in her impression, +[5289.980 --> 5295.100] were mostly Zapatik, mostly Spanish dominant versus older people who were Zapatik dominant, +[5295.100 --> 5299.660] sort of these moments of confusion because of these differences and firm reference. I mean, +[5299.660 --> 5303.580] we don't have good evidence for that, and it was sort of more of a speculation, but it's another case +[5303.660 --> 5313.580] where, you know, also as Dan pointed out earlier, these moments of conflict are I think really, +[5313.580 --> 5319.660] really interesting for making sense of the dynamics of change in these larger ecologies. +[5319.660 --> 5326.540] Yeah, if I could just just a quick follow up. Yeah, so yeah, you said a lot there that's really +[5326.540 --> 5333.500] exciting and interesting. So one thing is that for some groups, I mean, of course, it's like +[5333.500 --> 5338.300] difficult to get access to, you know, West Point, for instance, but there are channels for doing it. +[5339.260 --> 5343.180] So my little sister goes to West Point and she's telling me all the time there, +[5343.180 --> 5348.140] there's so many studies that they're putting these kids through, and I think, you know, +[5348.140 --> 5354.300] sort of casually looking at it at one point, on the, you know, the grape system, and there are, +[5354.300 --> 5359.660] there are grants that are specifically about like, okay, they're bringing in civilians to try to study +[5360.940 --> 5367.340] cadet. Another thing, I mean, the sample size could be an issue, but another thing about West Point +[5367.340 --> 5374.860] is they very intentionally bring in individuals from other countries. So yeah, so I mean, yeah, +[5374.860 --> 5381.740] it could be difficult. I think they're like less than 5% of the student body, but maybe, +[5381.740 --> 5389.020] and that can maybe be a place to look for anecdotal information about what those conflicts would look like, +[5389.740 --> 5394.860] especially because as you said in the military, a lot of the things about like, how we do things, +[5394.860 --> 5400.940] it becomes, you know, very, it reminds me of the example with your Nonna, it's a very like, +[5400.940 --> 5408.060] people get very like, this is the way, and it is wrong to not do it this way. So anyway, yeah, +[5408.060 --> 5414.060] thanks for, thanks for flying. Yeah, great, yeah, I wrote all that down. Thank you. Yeah, thanks. +[5417.260 --> 5424.380] Those are great, great suggestions. Hilar, I would like to thank you once again for visiting us, +[5424.380 --> 5429.820] and for a great talk. We're unfortunately out of time. Otherwise, I think we could definitely continue +[5429.820 --> 5433.980] this discussion for quite some time, but I hope you'll come back and visit us again, and you're, +[5433.980 --> 5440.940] you're close, you're in the UC system. So let's, let's definitely keep in touch. And if people +[5440.940 --> 5449.820] would like to unmute themselves, let's thank Tyler for a great talk. Thank you so much. Thanks, +[5449.820 --> 5454.860] everyone. Good luck with the bike ride in the snow. Be careful. Yeah, I'm excited. +[5455.980 --> 5460.060] Okay, I'll see you, I'll see you in a very student in 25 minutes. Sounds great. Thanks so much, +[5460.060 --> 5462.060] everybody. See you next week.