diff --git "a/transcript/allocentric_YrMiKxPV_Ig.txt" "b/transcript/allocentric_YrMiKxPV_Ig.txt" new file mode 100644--- /dev/null +++ "b/transcript/allocentric_YrMiKxPV_Ig.txt" @@ -0,0 +1,1096 @@ +[0.000 --> 3.840] This is a problem with relationships. Everybody has a different version of what a relationship is. +[3.840 --> 8.720] And a lot of conflict comes from when two people have different ideas of what a relationship should look like. +[8.720 --> 13.360] My uncle gave me this test and without fail, it is predicted every divorce. +[13.360 --> 13.840] What is it? +[13.840 --> 19.040] The test was so simple. It was like, that is a huge red flag. +[19.040 --> 23.200] The best paradigm for Gates is storytelling. Never questions. +[23.200 --> 27.200] So as soon as you get in the table, not just like, hey, are you? It's just like, the craziest thing just happened. +[27.200 --> 33.440] You were on a double date with your wife and you met somebody for the first time at the end. +[33.440 --> 37.120] You were like, they're cheating on their partner. How did you come to that conclusion? +[37.120 --> 38.240] There was two things. One. +[46.320 --> 51.520] I want to start with how I can improve my ability to read non-verbal cues. +[52.000 --> 54.000] Yeah. Okay. That's a process. +[54.000 --> 59.680] All right. So it starts with evaluating how you process behavior as it is. +[59.680 --> 62.960] So it starts with your default approach. So the problem is this. +[62.960 --> 67.120] We go down through life. We have this like neural net in our head. +[67.120 --> 70.880] And it's based on all past model of all the interactions that we've had. +[70.880 --> 76.560] And the truth is you have to understand how much you're wrong before you can improve the accuracy of what you're right on. +[76.640 --> 84.320] So there's a lot of like pop science stuff or cultural biases or just experiences in your life that shifted the way that you view things. +[84.320 --> 86.720] And the first is acknowledging all of that. +[86.720 --> 90.000] It's like the first step, which is a pretty robust process, which I'll talk about. +[90.640 --> 94.880] It's really looking at your perspective for life and how you view social interactions. +[94.880 --> 98.800] And then after that, it's increasing your behavioral awareness. +[98.800 --> 105.280] So this is just the ability to notice and pay attention to the shifts and the variation in somebody's behavior. +[105.360 --> 109.280] And understand in real time the meaning you're deriving from it. +[109.280 --> 114.400] So the truth is a lot of people, using bodily language experts will look at someone's behavior and be like, +[114.400 --> 118.160] oh, like this, this means this and this means that that's not really what you're doing. +[118.160 --> 121.360] I think it's more about noticing than making meaning out of. +[121.360 --> 125.840] So just like noticing. So for example, like noticing that the way that you're nodding your head in me right now, +[125.840 --> 128.320] that is a facet of social coordination. +[128.320 --> 131.120] You're showing me that you're listening to what I'm saying. +[131.120 --> 134.000] It doesn't mean that you're quote unquote interested. +[134.000 --> 138.400] But if we really looked at your head nods over the course of like a six month period, +[138.400 --> 143.840] we could find out when you're genuinely or probably really interested in something, +[143.840 --> 147.920] when you're just socially coordinating because you're going to shake my head because this is interesting. +[147.920 --> 152.320] So it's a multi-step process, but it really starts with confronting all your biases. +[152.320 --> 157.120] That's fascinating. How does it work in terms of cues I might misread then? +[157.440 --> 164.240] Because if I don't have knowledge of myself or baseline of sort of how I'm approaching things, +[164.240 --> 168.720] and I'm just meeting you for the first time, how can I deal with that situation? +[168.720 --> 173.040] Where are there obvious things I can do? What are the things that are more likely to misinterpret? +[173.760 --> 179.200] I think people are... So first you have to understand where you are on this threshold of, +[179.200 --> 184.080] I call it, literals and contextual. So there are certain people that... +[184.160 --> 188.080] I can say these things three ways. I can say, Shane, how are you? I can say, Shane, +[188.720 --> 194.160] how are you? I can say, Shane, how are you? There are people out there that see no difference +[194.160 --> 198.640] between those three things. They're all just Shane, how are you? And there's other people that +[198.640 --> 203.760] over contextualize or try to extract more value from the tonal shifts in what I'm saying. +[203.760 --> 209.360] And the truth is most people over contextualize certain things. So for example, I'm someone who, +[209.360 --> 213.120] like on my team, there's a rule that no one could give me a one word response. +[213.200 --> 217.920] So no one could ever say yes or no. It has to be like, yes, emoji, yes, gift or something like that, +[217.920 --> 222.240] because I think someone's mad at me when they just say yes. That's my own weird cultural type of +[222.240 --> 227.760] thing where you get that passive aggressive, like sure. Yeah, I'm like sure what? Like I can't stand +[227.760 --> 232.560] that stuff. And I don't know why, but I have to know that first. So there's behavioral signs of this +[232.560 --> 237.360] as well. So you'll have people like watch videos of like a 20-second interaction and they'll say, +[237.360 --> 241.360] oh, this person doesn't like them. And I'm like, well, why do you say that? I'm not really sure. I'm +[241.360 --> 245.840] you break down second by second by second. And they go like, oh, I think it's the way that they're +[245.840 --> 251.760] smiling. Or I think most people don't know how they're coming up with these perceptions. They don't +[251.760 --> 256.000] really understand the origins of it. And when you break it down systematically and they start to +[256.000 --> 261.200] see it, they get to understand a little bit more depth. So the true work is video work, looking at +[261.200 --> 266.400] videos and understanding what's going on with those. How does trust form between people? +[267.360 --> 273.440] Because it has a large indication that the nonverbal and also the verbal cues that we get from +[273.440 --> 279.040] other people. And I'm thinking specifically meeting somebody and forming trust with them in person +[279.040 --> 284.320] where you're getting a three-dimensional view of them. But now Zoom, right? It's very common to +[284.320 --> 288.720] meet new colleagues over Zoom and not in person. And you have to form a trust relationship with +[288.800 --> 296.960] each other. And maybe there's less detail in those interactions. How do we look for signs that +[296.960 --> 303.200] somebody might be untrustworthy? And conversely, how do we convey a trustworthiness to other people +[303.200 --> 310.080] through these interactions? That's a great question. Okay. So trust from a nonverbal perspective is just, +[310.080 --> 316.560] you could think of behaviors on a bell curve distribution. Right? So certain people are going to +[316.560 --> 322.240] act in certain ways that are not in alignment with how society perceives that behavior to be trustworthy. +[322.240 --> 327.040] So an example of this is eye contact. Right? If all of a sudden your eye contact is constantly +[327.040 --> 330.560] darting all around the space, people have a perception of like, why are they doing that? Like, +[330.560 --> 334.480] what's going on there? But on the other hand, like if you asked me, Blake, what is the most +[334.480 --> 338.400] important moment that happened in your life? And I go, well, the most important moment that happened +[338.400 --> 343.120] in my life, I look at you dead at your eyes when I'm saying that. Look, it looks better when I'm like, +[343.360 --> 349.280] I mean, the most important moment that ever happened in my life, it looks more genuine because it +[349.280 --> 353.760] makes sense that I'm looking away to recall an emotional event and then look back at you. So it's +[353.760 --> 359.440] in alignment with how society perceives things. And that really, in my opinion, is what it's about. +[359.440 --> 366.160] So everybody has their own sort of perceptual lens for what trustworthy behaviors are and aren't. +[366.240 --> 373.120] Right? So for me, I always look to have conversations or do things that are like three standard deviations +[373.120 --> 377.280] to the right of a bell curve. So like, if me and you had a conversation for an hour, we're +[377.280 --> 381.840] bringing up topics that you normally don't have with other people, which is going to create a higher +[381.840 --> 387.360] level of trust between you and you. So I'm looking for more nuanced topics and nuanced areas to draw +[387.360 --> 393.520] that conclusion and then to have the mimicking of my behavior to be associated with the excitement for +[393.520 --> 399.680] those things. So for example, like if me and you had like a very long conversation about your +[399.680 --> 404.320] children, for example, like your children are obviously important to you. If my behavior is just +[404.320 --> 408.720] asking you standard questions and I'm doing all that, but it doesn't actually look like I'm interested. +[408.720 --> 412.640] It's like, uh, something's off here. Like what's this person trying to do? What's this person trying +[412.640 --> 419.440] to get? But the truth is it's different for each person, which is why the puzzle is so fascinating. +[419.520 --> 423.920] Because it's, I mean, I've met with executives that have these weird things that like, oh, I never +[423.920 --> 429.680] trust somebody who walks in the room and doesn't shake my hand first. I'm like, well, okay, so why? +[430.320 --> 433.360] And we look at it and it's like when they were 12 years old, their dad taught them that. +[433.360 --> 439.360] Right. So you got to understand that it's build trust build trust. There's not this like step one, +[439.360 --> 445.920] two, three, four, five, it's way more complex than that. But the first thing is don't be so outside +[445.920 --> 449.600] the bell curve distribution of how someone acts that you're just not trusted from the get go. +[450.160 --> 456.000] And how much do we update our information once we form an opinion with you? Like how much +[456.000 --> 460.400] information would it take to, because I'm not looking for signs anymore, right? Like my brain +[460.400 --> 464.720] shuts down. I'm like, oh, this person's trustworthy. Therefore, I stop looking for it or I say, +[464.720 --> 470.240] this person's not trustworthy. Therefore, that's all I see. And how do we go about changing other +[470.240 --> 475.520] people's perceptions of us and also changing our own or being open to changing our own perception +[475.600 --> 480.720] of other people. So like we have this Bayesian brain and even people that are the most like +[481.520 --> 487.520] think they're the most Bayesian approach when it comes to human behavior, we get lazy and we build +[487.520 --> 492.240] these things and we don't change. And I feel like the only time we're changed is if we're shown +[492.240 --> 497.760] we're really wrong. And that's one of the things that I do a lot. So in like working with executives +[497.760 --> 502.480] and programs and training, I get somebody to make a read or a prediction about someone else's +[502.480 --> 506.640] behavior. And then I show them like, oh, no, you were completely wrong. And they're like really? +[506.640 --> 510.720] And they're like, oh, yeah, this was the reason why they boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And enough +[510.720 --> 516.080] of those wrongs, it gets people to sort of challenge how they're viewing the world. And then you +[516.080 --> 521.600] can start to have the self-growth. But it's not an easy path. Like some people will hold on to their +[521.600 --> 526.880] perceptions. They're like, oh, no. Like I've been doing this thing for 25 years and it's never +[526.880 --> 532.080] got me wrong. All the cognitive and decision making bias stuff that you're famous for gets applied +[532.080 --> 538.000] to behavior every single second of every single day. You did a lot of work with prisoners. +[538.000 --> 543.840] Did you feel safe? Did you feel like you could trust them? Yeah, I never felt. You know, +[544.400 --> 549.760] my friends like background is no way as robust as some people have been doing this for like 30 or +[549.760 --> 557.200] 40 years. But I never felt unsafe in a forensic setting. I just didn't. I view people as like, +[557.200 --> 561.120] most people are still reasonable. And if they're sitting down and talking to me, there's a level +[561.520 --> 568.800] reasonable there. And yeah, I mean, I think I just threw a conversation through looking at my lens +[568.800 --> 574.320] for the world. I used to be scared by people when I was a kid, like a lot of social anxiety, all +[574.320 --> 580.560] that. And there's been so many instances in my life where, you know, even on the street with +[580.560 --> 584.480] somebody that's looking like really tough for on the way here, it's something happened where I was +[584.480 --> 588.400] like, oh, just a person. And I believe through discourse and through conversation, anything could +[588.480 --> 594.640] be settled. I wasn't really, yeah, it's a great question. I can't remember fear. But did you feel +[594.640 --> 599.360] like you could trust these people to give you honest answers? Well, in a forensic setting, like, so +[600.400 --> 605.760] no, so like that's one of the coolest and all forensic psychology. There's a lot of personality +[605.760 --> 612.720] tests, which I'm very anti. But forensics has one, it's built by a process. I think this is +[612.720 --> 617.520] correct. Empirical, keen procedure. So it's really cool. What they basically do is they'll like +[617.520 --> 622.800] ask people that have been diagnosed with like schizophrenia, like 15 or 20 questions. And they find +[622.800 --> 628.560] the patterns that like 99% of people hear voices in like one year or two years or whatever it is. +[628.560 --> 632.720] And then they ask people those same questions that are mullingering. Right. And that's how they +[632.720 --> 636.400] determine whether or not they're lying or not. There's always, and that's why like one of the biggest +[636.400 --> 643.600] tests, I think, still use the MMPI-2 Minnesota multi-phasic personality inventory. It's like 530 questions. +[643.600 --> 649.120] And a lot of the inventory is asking questions in different ways. So you don't remember what you +[649.120 --> 653.280] said on question 26. And that's the point of it. And that's the whole point, right? So there's like +[653.280 --> 658.800] this embedded in these forensic intramacies embedded concept of the person might be lying and we're trying +[658.800 --> 664.480] to figure that out. So I think it's, it's just different. But yeah, but I'm, you know, people lie for +[665.520 --> 670.000] different reasons for shame, for embarrassment. I remember I had to ask this inventory about +[670.560 --> 676.400] sex, like how have they had sex in the past like 12 months, nine months, six months, three months. +[676.400 --> 680.640] And they're in prison and in men population. And when you ask that question, people get like very, +[680.640 --> 684.640] like what'd you say? And like people react in a different way. And it's like it makes total +[684.640 --> 690.400] contextual sense that they would. I'm going to use a very subjective term in terms of like toughest, +[690.400 --> 696.240] your baddest, your most dangerous person. If you had to rank them and categorize them sort of like +[696.240 --> 701.040] by percentile and to less or more dangerous without knowing their background and only having +[701.040 --> 705.920] the information from sort of their answers and their nonverbal cues, how would you go about doing +[705.920 --> 713.200] that? The great question. So I would always focus on massively erratic behavior that worries me +[713.200 --> 718.320] more than anything else. So seeing somebody, seeing like a schizophrenic in a full violent rage +[718.320 --> 723.440] or episode like that, which society thinks it's way more common than it actually is. It's not, +[723.440 --> 728.080] it's like a stigma that these most people walking down the street that you are talking to +[728.080 --> 731.840] themselves just continues to talk to themselves. They don't really hurt anyone. But when somebody has +[731.840 --> 737.120] loop really lost their touch with reality and their violent, I think that's the scariest thing +[737.120 --> 743.040] by far. And that's always like, all right, just watch out. Do you think the biggest +[743.040 --> 748.160] talkers are more dangerous than the silent type? I've always, in my experience, I've always found +[748.240 --> 756.000] the silent types to not be, I, the biggest talkers are the ones that just talk, talk, talk, talk. +[756.560 --> 763.360] And they don't really do much. But the problem with them is that like if that threshold of ego or +[763.360 --> 769.440] disrespect gets violated, I feel like they feel the need to actually assert themselves. But some of +[769.440 --> 774.480] the big tough people are just big and tough. And are they more like a light switch? Yeah. I think +[774.480 --> 777.360] they're more erratic in that regard. Like all of a sudden you say something like what you said, +[777.360 --> 782.480] like it's just, it's quick. Where like some of the bigger, if they want, they'll just, +[783.200 --> 786.800] just lay you out right there. Like it's, they're big. They've got that aggression. They've got +[786.800 --> 796.160] that power. But yeah, I would definitely say that. And also the younger population, like people in +[796.160 --> 804.560] their 20s that are just 25, 26 in prison, it's different. It's a different time for someone versus +[804.560 --> 811.680] 40 or 50 that have had that experience in that lifelong. It's just, it's to completely different +[811.680 --> 815.760] when you've been institutionalized and grown up in that area and understand how to handle yourself +[815.760 --> 820.400] and how to play the game and how to navigate all these things. But I've met some really, really, +[820.400 --> 826.320] really smart people that were like just really ingenious ideas and concepts that came from prison. +[826.320 --> 830.880] Retent to judge people based on their worst choice in some cases, right? Oh, I mean, I am, +[830.960 --> 838.800] that is probably like my advocacy. Like so my foundations will be all for prison reform, +[838.800 --> 847.120] all forgiven people second chances. I believe that society, it's kind of crazy to me that if you +[847.120 --> 853.280] were put in that situation, you might, if you, like people don't understand, you see somebody +[853.280 --> 858.560] commit a horrible crime and they do something horrible. But that person has a story. And if you were +[858.560 --> 863.520] to touch that person and see every step of that story, most people would be like, I'd probably +[863.520 --> 868.240] commit that crime too. And there's just this massive fallacy that people are like, well, no, I, +[868.240 --> 873.680] no, you grew up in a completely different world and a completely different context. So be careful +[873.680 --> 879.360] with that whenever I see somebody who does something that I think is not something I would do, +[879.360 --> 884.720] I always ask myself, what would the world have to look like for me for that to be my default +[884.800 --> 890.000] behavior? And it can be often an illuminating process to get out of your perspective, shift into +[890.000 --> 895.600] a different perspective. And you're right. Like their behavior makes sense to them. Yeah. And when +[895.600 --> 900.160] you hear these people's stories, like they're real stories, it's like, like you're doing quite well +[900.160 --> 906.000] considering, like just like the most horrible things that people can't even sort of fathom. And +[907.040 --> 911.920] if you're not, if you don't view it through their lens and through their perspective, it's impossible +[911.920 --> 919.920] to like truly relate. I want to come back to the trust thing again, because you were on a +[919.920 --> 928.880] double date with your wife and you met somebody for the first time I believe and you were like, +[928.880 --> 934.080] they're cheating on their partner. Yeah. Within a few minutes. Yeah. And I'm wondering like, what +[934.080 --> 938.640] went into that? How did you come to that conclusion? How confident were you in that conclusion? +[939.600 --> 945.840] Yeah. I was like 100% confident. I would have placed a lot of money. There was two things. One, +[945.840 --> 951.840] it was like the gaze direction in the person's eyes. So for example, like, you know, +[952.960 --> 957.840] an attractive woman walks by. It's not uncommon for men to go like that and glance away. +[957.840 --> 963.760] The way that he glanced was like, there was just a certain amount of desire in his eyes, +[963.760 --> 969.520] where he just stared and was like, and what he was doing was doing all these like more like a predator, +[969.520 --> 974.080] or more like a predator, more like a predator. That's a really good term. Predator desire for it. +[974.080 --> 978.240] And he kept saying things to me, like little things that were like, are you one of these people +[978.240 --> 982.880] that cheat on your wife? Like I could just say, he didn't say that. No, but he knew about, +[983.840 --> 988.720] he knew about this poker game. And there was like a couple of things that he stated that I was just +[988.720 --> 993.360] kind of like, this is a little sketch. So you're testing the water. Yeah, he was like, +[993.360 --> 1000.640] testing the water. Yeah, are you one of us? And I think what I did is I walked the line of like, +[1000.640 --> 1005.360] oh, I know that game or I know that I know that person, but I didn't actually cross it. +[1005.360 --> 1008.720] And then that gave him a little bit of trust with me to kind of go a little bit more. And I'm like, +[1008.720 --> 1014.800] I'm pretty sure, Gene, I know your wife. How much of that is ego coming out to? Like why would he, +[1015.440 --> 1019.600] I'm also just trying to like understand his, but like, why would I put myself in a situation +[1019.600 --> 1026.960] in this double day where I'm exposing part of myself. I'm trying to hide. I assume he was trying +[1026.960 --> 1031.200] to hide the fact that he was having an affair. I don't think he was. I think also, I mean, +[1032.480 --> 1038.240] I definitely have a disarming quality to me when I meet people because I'm very, I'm not really +[1038.320 --> 1045.040] judgmental. I'm a, I'm like a low judgment. So I have, I have friends on every spectrum of everything, +[1045.040 --> 1050.720] right? So I think I give permission to people to just sort of be themselves. And then they keep pushing. +[1050.720 --> 1055.440] And I'm still fine with it. And then they keep pushing. And I'm like, okay, like, it is what it is. +[1055.440 --> 1059.200] You go on there. But there's just like these cultural narratives. Like I was at a dinner once. +[1059.200 --> 1063.360] And I was with like six of my friends. And one of my friends started like complaining about his +[1064.320 --> 1068.320] wife. And I, everybody else started to like, it was like such a cool dynamic. Everybody else was like, +[1068.320 --> 1072.160] yeah, you know, my wife does that too. And it bothers me. And I looked at my friend and I was like, +[1072.160 --> 1077.120] why don't you just get a divorce? And he was like, what? I was like, just, just get a divorce. +[1077.120 --> 1080.640] And he was like, obviously not going to get a divorce. I'm like, well, why are you sitting here? +[1082.000 --> 1086.080] Bad mouthing your wives. Like, I don't have anything bad. I love my wife. I love spending time +[1086.080 --> 1090.880] with her. Like, why are we doing this? And immediately the conversation switches to be like, yeah, +[1090.880 --> 1095.440] you're right. Like I love my wife for this reason. I love my wife for that reason. And it's just like, +[1096.160 --> 1100.560] I really believe I hate that I hate saying this, but I do believe like people are sheep in that +[1100.560 --> 1106.240] regard where there's a narrative. And if a powerful person just comes along and shifts the narrative, +[1106.240 --> 1110.720] you see how quickly everybody else falls in line. And we're all on both sides of this. +[1110.720 --> 1115.680] Sometimes we're the wolf and sometimes we're the sheep. I know you sort of specialize in nonverbal, +[1115.680 --> 1121.360] but is there like a way that we communicate about our partner that would be indicative of like +[1121.360 --> 1125.760] common complaining about our partner versus like, oh, there's something seriously wrong here. +[1125.760 --> 1132.480] Oh, total. I mean, like, I think there's just, this is like all the work that got mended, +[1133.040 --> 1136.800] relationship labs, and all predicting like signs of contempt and all these things. +[1137.680 --> 1141.760] This is a problem with relationships. Everybody has a different version of what a relationship is. +[1141.760 --> 1146.960] So one of the reasons why me and my wife have been together for 12 years, we are together like 99% +[1146.960 --> 1153.600] of the time. It works because both of us have the same definition for what a relationship should +[1153.600 --> 1158.960] quote unquote be. So we see view things through the same sort of lens. And a lot of conflict comes +[1158.960 --> 1163.280] from when two people have different ideas of what a relationship should look like. And there has +[1163.280 --> 1167.760] to be like that negotiation between that. And I think that's hard for a lot of couples. And it's +[1167.760 --> 1171.440] like, it's a good question before you get married. Like, what, you know, what are our characteristics of, +[1172.000 --> 1176.160] yeah, what should, which is an ideal relationship? What does it look like? Some people are like, no, +[1176.160 --> 1179.840] I hang out with my friends, you hang out with your friends, and we get together on the weekends. +[1179.840 --> 1184.640] I've no couples that have been together for 45 years that have that paradigm. To me and my wife, +[1184.640 --> 1189.440] we're like, oh, they're not that close. But it doesn't matter. It's what their relationship of +[1190.080 --> 1196.320] should look like. My uncle gave me this test. I think it was like a decade ago now. And without fail, +[1196.320 --> 1202.560] it is predicted every divorce. And this test was so simple. It was like, if you hang out with people +[1203.440 --> 1208.400] and they talk to each other, but only in transaction and transaction being like, you get groceries, +[1208.400 --> 1212.640] you change the diaper, you like errands, you know, sort of like day to day life stuff. And they don't +[1212.640 --> 1220.880] ask each other questions. Like that is a huge red flag for predicting a problem. And it's actually +[1220.880 --> 1225.360] enabled me to like intervene in some friends lives and be like, hey, we just had dinner last night. But +[1225.360 --> 1230.080] I noticed this thing is everything okay is like there anything you want to talk about. And they're like, +[1230.080 --> 1235.600] how did you know? And I'm like, oh, because like I'm sitting there. We're both talking to me, +[1235.600 --> 1240.480] but you're not talking to each other. And you know, on a one off basis, that's fine. But like +[1240.480 --> 1245.600] repeatedly, okay, well, now I'm detecting a pattern and something is something's up. +[1245.600 --> 1251.440] There's so many interesting nuance themes. I remember we used to do a bunch of studies in +[1251.440 --> 1256.320] New York City. And I had this one couple come in and they're like, oh, can you can you study us? +[1256.320 --> 1260.720] And I said, sure. So they come into the office and they sat down on a couch and I recorded them +[1260.720 --> 1264.800] from like three different angles. And they're like, what do you see? I was like, I'm not going to +[1264.800 --> 1269.920] say anything. I'm going to leave the room. I'm going to go get lunch, sit here and watch your +[1269.920 --> 1276.000] interaction and write down what problems you think we, you know, you have. And they did it. And +[1276.000 --> 1280.720] it was like, they saw so many things. He's like, I don't really listen to her. I was looking +[1280.720 --> 1284.640] on the video and she was speaking and I was just kind of nodding my head and distracted. And +[1284.640 --> 1288.800] they both had that was really impressed to see that level of awareness. But I think that, +[1289.600 --> 1294.080] video does in a world with so many different perspectives and perceptual differences. +[1294.080 --> 1298.960] Video doesn't lie. It's just like raw data. And I think it's so helpful to like see yourself on +[1298.960 --> 1303.200] video and relax. I don't mean to do more of that in terms of like recording ourselves because, +[1303.200 --> 1305.600] I mean, I'm a big fan of it. Push for this. It's going to be lots of good. Yeah. +[1305.760 --> 1311.760] I'm not too here. I mean, it's just, yeah, like, sit down and the truth is people, like, +[1311.760 --> 1315.600] we'll talk about the observer effect with video and all that. It goes away in like 10 minutes. +[1315.600 --> 1319.440] Like, if you have like a small iPhone, you forget about it and you're actually seeing patterns +[1319.440 --> 1326.560] of behavior. And that's something I say to my wife a lot. Like, oh, like, let's get a video of it +[1326.560 --> 1332.560] and see what it was actually like, right? Because it's so difficult to just, you ask two people to +[1332.560 --> 1338.560] recall an event. It's just wildly different. It's like, what? And then you show the video and +[1338.560 --> 1342.640] you see that it's like somewhere in the middle of what those two stories were. And I just find +[1342.640 --> 1347.280] that fascinating. So I'm obsessed with video. I like the feedback. We're giving a presentation. +[1347.280 --> 1354.880] We watch a video to like see ourselves articulation. So that's another big problem. So in presentations, +[1354.880 --> 1359.120] we had a program for called dynamic presentations. I used to do it for in New York City for like five +[1359.120 --> 1362.880] years and a lot of corporate stuff around it. And people are obsessed with recording the person +[1362.880 --> 1367.840] on stage. What's more interesting is recording the audience. Because the truth is I'm always asked +[1367.840 --> 1372.320] how do my presentation go? I don't know. Let's see the audience. A presentation is for that group +[1372.320 --> 1377.120] of people. So what often happens is a lot of communication experts will watch like a presentation. +[1377.120 --> 1380.720] And they'll go, well, I think you should move your hands more or less or I think you should speak +[1380.720 --> 1385.280] like they're doing that through their perceptual lens. They're not optimizing for the engagement of +[1385.280 --> 1391.120] the audience. So I used to record my presentation and the audience every third presentation for like three +[1391.120 --> 1395.680] years. It was fascinating. Why don't we take that approach? I mean, comedians effectively take that +[1395.680 --> 1400.320] approach without recording the audience because it's based on oh, that joke got a laugh. I'm going to +[1400.320 --> 1405.360] use that next time. That joke fell flat. I'm not going to use that next time. It's the feedback loop +[1405.360 --> 1410.000] is instant. So that's how that was was was such the value. Like when I was teaching psychology +[1410.000 --> 1415.200] acune, I was speaking like 80 to 100 hours a week, both at my office and both instant feedback +[1415.200 --> 1420.320] loop of what story worked. What story didn't work? Like did that land that offend somebody and you +[1420.320 --> 1424.160] just start to develop this quick of repertoire of things that actually work, but that comes from +[1424.160 --> 1429.760] that audience interaction. But most people when giving a presentation, they're not even present enough +[1429.760 --> 1434.240] to do that because they're so in their head about the presentation. So it's sort of a skill set that +[1434.240 --> 1439.120] comes after you've been more comfortable being on stage to be able to process and sort of predict +[1439.120 --> 1442.960] the behavior of an audience. What's the biggest thing that gets in people's way when they're +[1442.960 --> 1451.040] presenting? Really just the social construction that a presentation is something different. So people, +[1451.040 --> 1455.520] it's got this whole cultural narrative. Oh, you got to you have your big presentation coming up. +[1455.520 --> 1460.240] It's hyped up as it's this different thing. You're just talking to a group of people and they're +[1460.240 --> 1465.120] responding by shaking their head and nodding and you're setting up their net. I think that's the +[1465.120 --> 1469.440] first contract that needs to be broken. And then also just people just don't put in the reps. +[1469.440 --> 1474.880] Like that's something that just takes time and most people work so hard for a presentation and +[1474.880 --> 1478.240] they do it. And they're like, oh, it's a flood of release where they should have just done +[1478.240 --> 1483.040] them every day for the next three weeks through a presentation. It'd be so much better. +[1483.040 --> 1488.240] What does putting in the reps mean? Does that mean crafting your story and positioning it for the +[1488.240 --> 1494.240] audience? Does it mean your intonation? Like how do you actually go about working on that? Like how +[1494.240 --> 1500.000] would you make me an expert presenter if you had three weeks and you had one hour a day of my time? +[1500.000 --> 1505.120] So that's so cool that you did that. So my question is always be what was the constraint? +[1505.760 --> 1510.800] So if you said three hours a week, one hour a day of your time, the first week would probably be +[1510.800 --> 1516.400] reps of just let's get you comfortable. So the thing is with a lot of nonveral behavior stuff +[1516.400 --> 1522.000] and movement, I have found reliably that the most effective version of someone is when they're +[1522.000 --> 1527.600] the most comfortable. Bar not every single time. So the whole joke is people think I teach like, +[1527.600 --> 1531.920] oh, stand this one. Now, like step one is get you to the level where you're the most comfortable, +[1531.920 --> 1537.440] where you feel the most free and then build on top of that. So I try to get you there first. +[1537.440 --> 1541.920] And I wouldn't be focusing on, I mean, it really depends if you're doing like a TED talk that was +[1541.920 --> 1545.360] like 20 minutes, I'd probably tell you just to rehearse it and get that down. But we're doing like +[1545.360 --> 1550.160] an hour presentation or the most presentations that people have to do. It would be all outlines, +[1550.800 --> 1557.440] repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat. And it's a careful balancing act to like understand where you're at +[1557.440 --> 1563.280] because some people with a lot of anxiety, I will know or some people that are trying to get it right, +[1563.280 --> 1568.400] I won't be focusing on little details. It's a way more dynamic process. Like so some people that +[1568.400 --> 1572.400] have like these facial things to getting better at presentations, like it's different for every +[1572.400 --> 1576.400] person because some, if someone you're telling someone, listen, you're moving your hands too much. +[1576.400 --> 1579.360] And they're going to get in their head about moving their hands too much. You're going to start +[1579.360 --> 1584.400] looking all weird. And some people can take a cue and immediately change it. And other people +[1585.360 --> 1589.200] just get them comfortable, just get them comfortable. And then using video, +[1589.440 --> 1594.000] viewing as they else fascinating. So what do you show people? Video of themselves. I work, +[1594.000 --> 1600.560] once work with this woman. I hope she's hearing this because I love her, but not to call her out. +[1600.560 --> 1607.120] So I, she gives one of the worst initial presentations I've ever seen in my entire life. She was +[1607.120 --> 1612.960] extremely flat. She was like moving her hands. She literally spoke like this for an entire 20 +[1612.960 --> 1617.040] minutes. And it was like painful to watch. And at the end of the video, I was like, okay, so let's see +[1617.040 --> 1621.360] what we're working with. And I put her video on her like projector. And the first thing she says to +[1621.360 --> 1628.480] me is like, I need a nose job. And it just shows you like that's where that person's perception is +[1628.480 --> 1634.240] focused on. Like we're focused on these weird little different things that no one else recognizes +[1634.240 --> 1640.320] or no one else cares about. And I truly believe that the most world class best presenters are +[1640.320 --> 1645.120] truly about their audience and not about themselves. They're not trying to come across a certain way. +[1645.120 --> 1650.720] They're trying to like I even feel that now like I'm stepping more into my own self after first 20 +[1650.720 --> 1654.640] minutes. Like at first, it's a little bit, you know, it's a little different. I'm trying to be +[1654.640 --> 1659.680] more measured. Now it's more me coming out of it. And the truth is how do you get to that immediately? +[1659.680 --> 1664.160] And go from there and go right away. And I want to switch gears a little bit and talk about +[1664.640 --> 1672.160] workplaces and sort of power structures and social dynamics. How can you teach me to understand +[1672.160 --> 1677.360] the power structure at work and social dynamics? How would you go about that? So power structures. +[1677.360 --> 1685.360] Oh man, that's such a big question. They are these invisible things. That's what I, when we talk +[1685.360 --> 1688.640] about reading the Romanic corporate structure, that's what we're talking about. We're talking about +[1688.640 --> 1693.840] power structure, we're talking about permissions, all these things. The first way to do it is to do +[1694.080 --> 1699.920] exercise where you sort of do a decision tree of the potential, like show people what the potential +[1699.920 --> 1706.800] landscape could be. So for example, let's say all of a sudden a new CEO gets pulled in. And we +[1706.800 --> 1714.320] want to say, okay, what is this CEO going through? Is this CEO just pushed in by the PE company? Does +[1714.320 --> 1719.360] the CEO have performance-based incentives? Like what are they trying to do? And just map out all +[1719.440 --> 1725.040] what quote-unquote is possible? And then start using the data and evidence that's coming in on a +[1725.040 --> 1731.360] daily basis to cross out which one it is. And then sometimes just straight up ask, I think that's +[1731.360 --> 1736.160] something that a lot of organizations don't do. I can't tell you the amount of times where I'm just like, +[1736.160 --> 1742.240] so I was really cool perspective because I work with often the entire C suite. So like the +[1742.240 --> 1747.040] COO CT, like everybody I work with. And it's like you two need to talk about this because this is +[1747.040 --> 1751.200] blocking your you two need to talk about this. But the amount of communication that just doesn't +[1751.200 --> 1757.840] happen at like a personal level or just a level that's like blocking decision making, it's kind of +[1757.840 --> 1764.960] crazy. I think organizations need to talk way more than they are in this siloed environment sometimes. +[1766.080 --> 1770.720] If you just were able to have those conversations, you would be able to navigate and see the power +[1770.720 --> 1775.600] structures way easier. And people just don't have that social skill set that the people skills that +[1775.600 --> 1780.720] sit down with someone. And a lot of I've just seen every lot of people get power structures. Oh, +[1780.720 --> 1788.160] I'll give you a good one. If you are falling in line with a power structure, it's often very +[1788.160 --> 1793.840] difficult to navigate it. Meaning if it's like, Oh my God, this person is this and this person is +[1793.840 --> 1798.720] this. And I'm just this, you're very rarely going to be able to see eye to eye with that person. +[1798.720 --> 1803.600] Because you perceive them here and you perceive yourself here. And I feel like people do that a lot +[1803.600 --> 1807.920] inside of organizations and doesn't give them that creative freedom to actually read what's going +[1807.920 --> 1815.520] on. Is the delta between where you are and where you perceive the other person? Like, does that +[1815.520 --> 1824.240] influence your how? I mean, just from like of what you have quote-on-quote permission to do or say, +[1824.240 --> 1829.600] it's all a perception. Like, I've worked with people like executive, I've worked with CEOs that +[1830.240 --> 1836.160] the most open, every all of their behavior suggests that they're the most open, honest, come to them +[1836.160 --> 1840.560] with problems. But people don't come to them with problems because they're CEO. Yeah, but they say +[1840.560 --> 1844.400] it over and over and over again. And I look at why. And they're like, I don't want to bother the CEO +[1844.400 --> 1849.920] with this. I'm like, they said seven times this year come to me with this specific kind of problem. +[1850.720 --> 1855.760] Yeah, you're right. But I just don't know. You get in your head like that. How much of that do you +[1855.760 --> 1862.480] think is cultural too? Because I worked with a CEO who said that, but the minute you came to him +[1862.480 --> 1866.880] with the problem, I mean, basically like scream at you. That's the kind of stuff that I correct. +[1866.880 --> 1872.560] So that's the bulk of my when you say something, but you're patting a lot of these people often +[1873.120 --> 1878.000] just don't understand a lot of executives don't understand the impact of their own behavior. +[1878.720 --> 1885.440] So I have met people that are wonderful, wonderful, wonderful people. Yeah, the way they give feedback, +[1885.440 --> 1891.600] oh my god. It's just ripped the person apart. And they're like, no, I love them. They're one of my +[1891.600 --> 1896.080] best people. I think they're great. I'm like, well, let's take responsibility for what that interaction +[1896.080 --> 1901.120] look like. And that's why zoom in video is so important for me. Because sometimes when you work with +[1901.120 --> 1905.760] an executive or you work with anybody and you tell them something, they don't see it like the way +[1905.760 --> 1910.720] that you described. But when you show them on video, that feedback, I was like, listen, go back 20 years +[1910.720 --> 1916.240] in your career. If you were given this feedback, how would you feel? They're like, yeah. And I do +[1916.240 --> 1922.160] this cool thing. It's an exercise that really works. So, you know, leadership, principles and all +[1922.160 --> 1926.320] that stuff. I'm not there to tell somebody how to lead. I'm not there for any of that. I'm there +[1926.320 --> 1931.360] just to make sure that their intent is aligned with their behavior. So I do this thing where I'm like +[1931.360 --> 1936.880] close your eyes and imagine you're like a funeral. And everybody you've ever worked within your +[1936.880 --> 1941.600] entire life is there. What are the stories and things that you're saying about you? And I just +[1941.600 --> 1946.160] make sure that those things are in alignment with their behavior. And they choose and solidify what +[1946.160 --> 1950.480] those things are. And then I kind of hold them accountable to making sure that they're carrying out +[1950.480 --> 1955.120] those things. It's kind of interesting, right? Because it's almost like a destination analysis, +[1955.120 --> 1959.840] which is like, there's a difference between getting what you want and then wanting +[1959.840 --> 1965.440] what's worth wanting. And then also the way that you employ a strategy to go about getting that +[1965.440 --> 1971.440] thing. So like, if you want the right destination and you have to know how to get it, but then also +[1971.440 --> 1976.560] it's like, am I getting it in a way that I'm going to be happy with at the end of my life? And you +[1976.560 --> 1981.120] can think of Ebenezer Scrooge. Yeah. A great example of somebody who went after goals, but they're +[1981.120 --> 1986.000] consciously or unconsciously about sort of being the wealthiest, most well respected, most well-known +[1986.000 --> 1991.280] person in his community, accomplished all of those goals. But what did he want at the end of his +[1991.280 --> 1997.920] life? He just wanted a redo because the way that he pursued those goals was mutually exclusive +[1997.920 --> 2002.800] from a life of meaning, which he later determined, which is sort of like this deathbed, sort of +[2002.800 --> 2007.760] messed right? I'm calling it the Ebenezer exercise. I'll credit you with that because that's +[2007.760 --> 2013.840] the perfect sort of analogy. And also about that destination principle, I think there's a major gap +[2014.640 --> 2021.280] in the leadership or organizational culture, that whole world between theory and application. +[2022.000 --> 2027.600] So somebody reads a book about the radical candor or some like concept, and then the way that they +[2027.600 --> 2032.720] apply it is completely different. So for example, some people just have like tonal aspects of their +[2032.720 --> 2038.560] voice that society or 80% of people perceive as harsh. And they'll say, listen, so I'm just being +[2038.560 --> 2044.320] totally honest here. But, and it's like, okay, that's coming across a little bit strong, a little +[2044.320 --> 2051.680] bit this. And what I've been fascinated by is not everybody sees that. So some people see it, +[2051.680 --> 2056.080] and some people don't. And like, I'll play it back for them. And they go, I'm just giving them advice. +[2056.080 --> 2060.160] And I'm like, you really don't hear the difference between that? And they're like, no. And that's why +[2060.160 --> 2064.000] you get some people in an organization that are hyper literal and some that are more contextual. And +[2064.000 --> 2068.800] you just they clash. And that's why it's like, you said one word answer. You said this. You said +[2068.800 --> 2075.440] that back and forth. But it's all this just, it's all this cool narrative of everybody seeing the +[2075.440 --> 2079.360] world differently. And it's like my job to solve the puzzle of documenting that and bringing +[2079.360 --> 2084.640] them together and show them. And that's usually the best step. Like I really believe that the +[2085.360 --> 2090.080] personal like operating manuals that sometimes people, I've seen some people do them that are so +[2090.080 --> 2096.000] good. And just like, listen, you hear my quirks, hear my things about me, you get it all out there +[2096.000 --> 2101.200] first so that you create the narrative and not somebody else is imagining the narrative. +[2101.200 --> 2106.000] Are there different techniques to enhance your communication? I'm thinking specifically with +[2106.000 --> 2111.840] people who are hyper literal. Because if you're not a hyper literal person, you don't tend to think +[2111.840 --> 2116.880] that way by default. It's harder. So it's easier to deal with the people that are more contextual +[2116.880 --> 2121.360] and lower them down than the hyper literal. It becomes like certain people on spectrums and +[2121.360 --> 2128.720] multi-axle spectrums. I sometimes have worked with people that I have to like, yeah, it's +[2128.720 --> 2136.160] basics, basic. And they're like, interesting. So I had a client once that this is years ago, this +[2136.160 --> 2142.240] may be like 14 years ago in a or 15 years ago in a bar in New York City at three o'clock in the +[2142.240 --> 2146.640] morning, not in a bar. I'm sorry, in a diner. He walks into the diner. And I was like on a double +[2146.720 --> 2151.600] date. And he walks into he walks in and he goes, Blake, how are and introduces everyone? Hey, +[2151.600 --> 2157.520] how are you? How are you? How are you? How are you? Everybody starts hysterical laughing. And I'm like, +[2157.520 --> 2163.280] good, good. And on our session later, I was explaining to him, like, this is why the context was +[2163.280 --> 2168.480] different. And I'm drawing circles of all the layers of context in that dynamic. And he's like, +[2168.480 --> 2173.440] okay, I understand it now. And I was like, it was inappropriate for that dynamic. And I have so +[2173.440 --> 2178.800] much empathy for people that don't see the world that way because it's so, so, so hard. It's +[2178.800 --> 2182.720] learned almost for people like that, right? It's like, now next time he knows in that situation, +[2182.720 --> 2187.120] but it's not intuitive for him. It's like a learned behavior and algorithm he's following. +[2187.120 --> 2191.760] And it isn't intuitive for some people. And it's right now in this room, there's just this +[2191.760 --> 2195.760] invisible norms of how I should act on a podcast, how you should be like, +[2197.040 --> 2203.040] and if you don't know those norms, you're sort of like ostracized. And sometimes one of the things +[2203.040 --> 2209.840] that happens is these like hyper or really successful people who violate those norms get modeled. +[2210.800 --> 2215.440] And it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, like Elon Musk can violate all the norms he wants. Steve Jobs can +[2215.440 --> 2219.760] too, but like, you can't, you don't have that authority. You don't have that contextual +[2219.760 --> 2224.400] understanding of who you are. So you have to sort of play the game in the beginning. This always +[2224.400 --> 2229.040] comes up with small talk. Like people hate small talk. I hate small talk. Well, small talk is a +[2229.040 --> 2233.040] path to big talk. So you give like a couple seconds, couple of minutes of small talk. You don't +[2233.040 --> 2236.720] just walk up to someone and they're like, Hey, like, so tell me what's the biggest conflict between +[2236.720 --> 2241.200] you and your wife right now. It's like, what? It's very off putting, right? Like there's a gradual +[2241.200 --> 2247.280] process. But if you don't understand those things, life is hard. Totally. What strategies can we use +[2247.280 --> 2255.040] to enhance our nonverbal communication at work? Our ability to communicate? Yeah. I think one, +[2255.120 --> 2258.800] step one, obviously, I've been repeating this over and over and over again is get as much video +[2258.800 --> 2264.640] as possible of you interacting. So everyone out there listening to this, if you work, I promise you, +[2264.640 --> 2269.760] you have a good amount of video on zoom, on whatever, you just basically want to rewatch those +[2269.760 --> 2275.200] videos and make sure that your intent is aligned with that with or without sound with definitely +[2275.200 --> 2278.880] with sound. What are you watching? Are you watching you? Are you watching other people's reactions? +[2278.880 --> 2284.960] So that's so the exercise of watching other people reacting to you is very valuable. +[2285.040 --> 2288.640] In the sense where you understand when you're losing people, when people are disinterested, +[2288.640 --> 2293.200] when they're engaged, so on and so forth. But also, understanding aspects of you, I believe that +[2293.200 --> 2299.840] most people, you need somebody else to help you with this. Yeah. People look at the things +[2300.880 --> 2308.000] that don't matter. They'll say like, I say like so much. Or I say, um, or I say, +[2308.000 --> 2312.640] ah, like you're missing the picture of what you're trying to sort of convey. So part of the process +[2312.640 --> 2317.440] is like coming up with almost like a series of words that you'd want to, like how do you want to +[2317.440 --> 2321.520] come across in this interaction? Well, I want to be enthusiastic. I want to be interested. I want to +[2321.520 --> 2326.000] be to the point and then making sure that your behaviors are in alignment with that and landing +[2326.000 --> 2331.600] for the people in that way. But a lot of it is like breaking down video and just analyzing video. +[2331.600 --> 2337.360] Like that's the best way by far. Okay. And if we don't have access to video for whatever reason, +[2337.360 --> 2346.400] if you don't have access to video, I would really, if I had to give it that, I would say I'd want +[2346.400 --> 2352.080] you to record yourself not in a work context. Record yourself with someone. They have a true +[2352.080 --> 2357.840] unconditional positive regard with someone that you know is not judging you that you're a close friend. +[2357.840 --> 2362.480] And I'd like you to look at your tonal patterns, your movement, how you are. That's how you should be +[2362.480 --> 2369.200] at work. Okay. That's for sure. It's like 95% of people. And every once in a while, there's a certain +[2369.200 --> 2375.120] percentage that's not that, but that's I think a good standard to follow. And do you consider writing +[2375.120 --> 2379.760] nonverbal or is it verbal because we sort of like read it with that little voice in our? Yeah, I mean, +[2379.760 --> 2384.720] yeah, it's, I, I, I'll take nonverbal as everything. So all of our software analyzes language +[2384.720 --> 2391.040] patterns, it analyzes tonality and I go into ever, you can't really separate nonverbal from verbal. +[2391.040 --> 2396.240] I mean, maybe the only place you could do this is poker and a couple of other things. The truth is +[2396.240 --> 2400.640] we're always, so the model for how we read behaviors, we're looking at behavior within a context +[2400.640 --> 2406.880] and we're coming up the reason for why it occurs. If you don't have like words, you don't understand +[2406.880 --> 2411.280] the context. That's why like a lot of things, a lot of these bilingual language people like take a +[2411.280 --> 2416.960] 10 second clip and be like, you know, because of my feet are sitting this way, that means this or +[2416.960 --> 2423.920] that and they just like build this narrative. Words allow you to understand the consistency of +[2423.920 --> 2428.880] that narrative. So it's, it's so much better to have the full picture as much data as possible. +[2428.880 --> 2434.400] I like that. Is there a way that we can look at our emails and evaluate our communication by +[2434.400 --> 2439.360] like sort of like looking outside in or questions we can ask other people to evaluate how effective +[2439.360 --> 2444.000] our communication is? So that's probably the best way is questions of asking other people. +[2444.720 --> 2447.680] But see, this is where it gets me. What would we ask this? So this is where it gets interesting, +[2447.680 --> 2452.880] right? So like you have to have a leadership style and a presence and a history of being the kind +[2452.880 --> 2456.240] of person that could sit there and be like, Hey, everyone, I'm really trying to improve how I am +[2456.240 --> 2460.320] on emails. So I just want you know, like when I send you an email, do you have any like weird stories +[2460.320 --> 2464.640] of an email that I sent you that you thought I was a certain way or I was frustrated of a certain +[2464.640 --> 2470.560] way? But a lot of leaders are executives, they can't even create the like space or the dynamic to +[2470.560 --> 2475.840] do that. Most people will be like, no, you're fine. So like I love these questions where we do all +[2475.840 --> 2482.160] these like perception research, right? So you go like this, you say, how do you think that interaction +[2482.160 --> 2486.640] went from a scale from one to 10? People are horrible at answering it. Like do you like that person +[2486.640 --> 2490.560] from a scale from one to 10? And they're like, I don't know. But you asked somebody a question, +[2491.120 --> 2496.560] would on a scale from one to five, how likely are you to invite this person to a dinner with your +[2496.560 --> 2502.400] closest friends? And the answer is so easy for them to answer. So I like questions that are about +[2502.400 --> 2507.920] predictive type of things, right? Not about just your trait because it allows them to conceptualize +[2507.920 --> 2513.280] and give a better answer. So I would be asking questions like, you know, on a scale from like, +[2513.280 --> 2518.880] just tell me I was going from one to five, how many times do you leave an email for me feeling +[2518.880 --> 2522.960] frustrated? Because they can easily give you the answer instead of searching for it. And +[2523.760 --> 2528.560] but let's be real. A lot of people don't want to do that work. Yeah. Like they're just going to +[2528.560 --> 2535.200] protect themselves from that. And listen, also, I think we have a problem in this kind of self-help +[2535.200 --> 2543.200] personal development world where I think a lot of, let's say like like thought leaders and +[2543.200 --> 2547.680] leadership and all I think they're disconnected from what leaders actually go through. And the reason +[2547.680 --> 2552.320] why I'm saying that is it's like all this stuff is easy and theory, but I see some of these people, +[2552.320 --> 2556.800] like they're pulled in six different directions. They're bored once them to do this. Their stock is +[2556.800 --> 2564.000] at this. This team is this and I it's so much harder than just like, oh, you know, be a little bit +[2564.000 --> 2570.880] more happy in the morning there. And I feel like you really as like a coach, you have to feel like, +[2571.600 --> 2574.800] you know, what's the 80 20 like what are the small things that you're going to do that are going to +[2574.800 --> 2580.480] have the greatest impact on the team. And then also I really just struggle with this in the sense that +[2580.480 --> 2589.040] like I've seen certain leaders be horrible and get incredible things done. The violate every book +[2589.040 --> 2595.200] ever written about leadership and work a team to complete death and play this MacaVillian game of +[2595.200 --> 2600.400] just when they're about to fire. Just by when they're about to quit, give them enough of reinforcement. +[2600.400 --> 2604.240] And I see they're like the dark side of everything that I'm teaching and I'm like, they know exactly +[2604.240 --> 2607.840] what they're doing here. And I call them out and I'm like, you know exactly where they're doing it. +[2607.840 --> 2612.320] And then you look at their KPIs and their metrics and how the how the organization structure and +[2612.320 --> 2618.800] they're like, they're actually in perfect alignment with how they should be acting. It's tricky. +[2618.800 --> 2622.080] It's like, it's a tricky thing. And I don't think that's spoken about enough. +[2622.080 --> 2627.600] Do you think all behavioral is contextual or environmental in that case? Because their environment is +[2627.600 --> 2631.920] those KPIs. The environment is the culture of the operating environment of the organization is +[2631.920 --> 2637.120] your environment. So the way to address that is to change the environment. Yeah. I think all +[2637.760 --> 2643.120] optimal behavior is within a construct of your environment. So the more you have context, +[2643.120 --> 2647.920] the more you understand understanding environment, the more your behavior can be designed or +[2648.960 --> 2655.120] modified to navigate that environment. Are there things that we can do in our environment that we +[2655.120 --> 2660.640] control individually outside of the context of an organization that we can use to improve our +[2660.640 --> 2667.680] behavior that come to mind for you? Set up cameras. Also, just set it up so that you win. +[2667.680 --> 2673.440] Like, I feel like a certain structures and certain environmental, just the way an office is +[2673.440 --> 2679.520] integrated. I had worked for one person a long time ago. They had like a desk and he had a like +[2679.520 --> 2683.920] really large desk and then there was a chair. And he would every time somebody came to the office, +[2683.920 --> 2688.160] he would like walk behind his desk, like shake their hand and then bring them to like a couch +[2688.160 --> 2693.120] set up where they were faced one-on-one. And that's before Zoom and before COVID. This is how they +[2693.120 --> 2697.760] did all their one-on-one sessions. And it was just like a simple way of getting making sure the person +[2697.760 --> 2701.840] feels really heard because you're just alive with them. And you're looking at them and you're +[2701.840 --> 2705.440] facing that direction. I was like, oh, that's a really cool way of doing that. And I mean, we do this +[2705.440 --> 2710.400] all the time with our kids with friends. We grab our phone and like we're talking to them but +[2710.400 --> 2716.560] we're not really talking to them. We're not. There's a huge advantage to sort of being gained by like, +[2716.800 --> 2721.040] I remember somebody said something who met Bill Clinton. And I was like, everybody got so many +[2721.040 --> 2726.080] Bill Clinton stories. No, but this one's not about this though. Yeah. Well, so this was like, +[2726.080 --> 2730.880] and I was like, oh, what did you take away from that? And this person like looked me in the eye +[2731.120 --> 2738.160] and they said, I felt like the most important person in the room for 45 seconds. How did he do that? +[2738.160 --> 2745.120] How do we create that? So the amount of people that have given me that build, I'm like, and I'm +[2745.120 --> 2751.040] so curious because I've seen some footage of him in interactions. A close friend told me the story +[2751.040 --> 2758.000] once of walking into a, he was with him and they walked into like a conference center. And there +[2758.000 --> 2763.360] was a cleaning lady cleaning. And she got really like, I'm not supposed to be here. And he walked +[2763.360 --> 2768.320] right up to her and he looked at her with the level of presence and focus for two and a half or +[2768.320 --> 2773.520] three minutes that people were like, huh, you know, and part of me is this is like, first, +[2773.520 --> 2777.200] there's definitely this halo or this thing of he's the president or for president of the United +[2777.200 --> 2783.200] States, right? But there's also these like nonverbal ways of just the piercing eye contact and the way +[2783.200 --> 2788.320] that he looks deep into your soul. And it's, there's definitely a balance of both. I am so curious, +[2788.320 --> 2793.520] though. That was what my friends said. Yeah. He never broke eye contact. Like he was just very intense. +[2793.520 --> 2799.280] But it was like a warm intensity if that makes sense. Not like a, there's also, I think this is +[2799.280 --> 2805.280] all about that perceptual bell curve. So I think there are qualities and tonality, the way the +[2805.280 --> 2811.280] gaze, the shape of someone's face is kind of like these, these whole old ancient pros, ancient +[2811.280 --> 2816.000] practices of like determining if somebody's going to be a criminal or not based on their facial structure. +[2816.000 --> 2820.640] And the fun, the interesting thing about that is like our culture supports that. Like William +[2820.640 --> 2826.080] DeFoe is usually the villain because he's got that really like angular sort of like type of face. +[2826.080 --> 2830.240] Like he was perfectly casted in one of the Spider-Man movies, right? Like, and there's certain things +[2830.240 --> 2835.920] about like there's a professor out of you pen that's done does a lot of stuff about impressions +[2835.920 --> 2840.720] and the structure of someone's face. And like that stuff's an advantage in life. Like some people have +[2840.720 --> 2845.840] a face that's going to be more trustworthy or a face that's going to be more aligned with attraction +[2845.840 --> 2849.840] or whatever it is. So I definitely think it's, it's multi variable, right? There's so many different +[2849.840 --> 2854.960] variables. And when they come together, you get that like really gifted communicator that just has +[2854.960 --> 2858.800] that ability. But I will say one thing. So one of the big things that I've noticed in the best +[2858.800 --> 2866.880] communicators is they have range. So they have the ability. There's a lot of shifts in their tonality. +[2866.880 --> 2872.400] There's a lot of movement. You kind of can't predict what the next word is going to be. There's, +[2872.400 --> 2875.520] I just think there's something that the brain loves that it loves the chaos. +[2875.520 --> 2879.120] Because you get to get to it. Exactly. And when you're not over complete and Google. +[2879.120 --> 2882.800] Exactly. No, that's the best way of thinking of it. Like you know what's going to happen. And then +[2882.800 --> 2889.120] I think there was one cool study. I think kind of like you pen that found that like people that talk +[2889.120 --> 2895.520] faster or listen to at a greater level, even though what they're saying is nonsense. They just not, +[2895.520 --> 2900.560] like that happens in your ones while I'll listen to somebody and I'd be like, I sound really good. +[2900.560 --> 2904.640] And then I replay it and they say the same thing three times. I even catch myself doing that. I was +[2904.640 --> 2909.680] like, I just had the same thing three times. Like, but I'm passionate about it. So it sounds good. +[2909.680 --> 2914.880] You know, yes. I mean, that's how are we on the other side of this though? +[2914.880 --> 2921.920] Like one of the biggest things that you can do in life is pick out people who are incompetent, +[2921.920 --> 2926.880] but sound competent from competence. Are there, how do we go about doing that? +[2926.880 --> 2934.960] So it's tricky. It's a tricky one. It's in the sense that I believe that certain people +[2935.680 --> 2940.720] speak with I was like a lot like this when I was younger. I would talk about things so confidently +[2940.720 --> 2945.680] that I knew nothing about. And my wife really changed my perspective on this when we first started +[2945.680 --> 2950.080] dating. She was like, you have a responsibility with that level of conviction. And I was like, +[2950.080 --> 2955.440] you're 100% right. Like I definitely like, I'm not really sure. So it's like, is my opinion about +[2955.440 --> 2960.960] this thing, but not like it's absolute fact and nobody else. And I think when you find somebody +[2961.040 --> 2967.840] like that, I like to look for, I don't know. So whenever I talk to any expert and is every, +[2967.840 --> 2971.920] there's always an answer sometimes it's nice to be like, I don't know, or there's not always an +[2971.920 --> 2976.160] answer to something, right? They don't always, because I feel like there's a compulsion to always +[2976.160 --> 2982.880] contribute or always to be confident. And the truth is it's just not possible. And then also there's +[2982.880 --> 2990.000] just little traits of humility of when someone was wrong or how they were wrong or why they were +[2990.000 --> 2995.760] wrong that come up in language and are not prompted. Like it's refreshing to hear an expert say, +[2995.760 --> 3002.400] I was really wrong about that. I think this is one thing that like, Uberman does so well of just +[3002.400 --> 3012.240] being this kind of like, like senior, very distinguished professor, tons of research, but has this +[3012.240 --> 3018.720] like, boyish kind of passion for science and for that. And I think that comes across as, +[3019.360 --> 3024.800] that's the new expert. One person that's not just, I have all the answers and trust me and I'm +[3024.800 --> 3030.640] right, but one person that's able to have humility and adapt over time. I like that. Are there +[3030.640 --> 3037.520] other things that stand out in terms of identifying incompetence or even deception? And I'm relating +[3037.520 --> 3042.160] those two because sometimes people are trying to deceive us and sometimes they're deceiving us in +[3042.160 --> 3046.880] part because they're, they're playing, you know, fake it to you and make it sort of thing, +[3046.880 --> 3052.480] where it's not necessarily necessarily intentional deception, but it is sort of like masking a +[3052.480 --> 3060.400] base level of incompetence. Yeah, so that's, so the, I think the best way. So on the nonverbal behavior +[3060.400 --> 3065.920] spectrum, dating is probably the easiest paradigm to understand and deception is the hardest, +[3066.560 --> 3072.320] because it's so multifaceted. It's so complex. I don't know if there ever will be a system that +[3072.320 --> 3076.800] can predict whether or not someone's lying or not, because it's just, it's a nuance that's very +[3076.800 --> 3081.920] difficult to encapsulate. I think the easiest way is to throw out fake information and see how people +[3081.920 --> 3088.480] respond. So I've done this in academic settings where I meet someone that I just, I think they're +[3088.480 --> 3092.720] a little bit full of it. So I just like make up studies. I'm like, have you read that? Like, +[3092.720 --> 3097.600] Dillington study in like 2014 and they're like about that. And then I'll say something. They're like, +[3097.600 --> 3101.280] yeah, I think I've read it. And I'm like, yeah, well, they did the double blind and like, +[3101.280 --> 3106.960] yeah, yeah, it was, it was great. I just made it up. And this is the trick though. It's not to make +[3106.960 --> 3113.040] a judgment call about that person. So I don't do something like that and go liar. How can it? But +[3113.760 --> 3119.360] I know that in terms of how they're willing to be seen, they're willing to sacrifice that +[3119.440 --> 3123.840] for being right in on the know, right? And they want to be perceived that way. So it's an +[3123.840 --> 3128.320] interesting sort of character thing. And there's questions like, you know, do you want your, +[3128.320 --> 3133.440] your head of business development, your salesperson to respond that way? Like, you know, it gets +[3133.440 --> 3138.000] interesting. But I think that's the easiest way. Because ultimately, I mean, there's a very innate +[3138.000 --> 3144.800] biological function in us that is self-preserving and the self-preserving instincts that we have +[3144.880 --> 3150.720] mean that we want other people to like us because for thousands of years, if we weren't liked, +[3150.720 --> 3156.400] we died. And by liked, I mean, we got kicked out of the tribe. So sometimes we would fake things +[3156.400 --> 3162.080] that would imagine to stay within the tribe rather than get exhumed a cato from the tribe, +[3162.080 --> 3169.120] which is certain death. Yeah. People have to be reminded. We're so bad as humans of looking at time. +[3169.760 --> 3176.400] But the amount of time we've been around on this planet, utilizing exactly what you're talking +[3176.400 --> 3181.040] about is like this. And then the time that we're navigating with these crazy structures, +[3183.680 --> 3189.840] and it plays such an important and valuable role in how we function. I always put my wife owns +[3189.840 --> 3196.400] a sleep optimization company. And she's all about circadian rhythms and very anti-these lights, +[3196.560 --> 3201.520] and what's so fascinating is like, if you look, we have had our sleep dictated by the sun +[3201.520 --> 3206.880] in the same way for so long. And just over the past like 90 years or 80 years or whatever it's been +[3206.880 --> 3213.680] completely altered. Yeah. That's so, so, so new. And just we are the time that we're going into right +[3213.680 --> 3221.920] now is the most socially complicated ever. There's nothing ever like it. We've got, you know, +[3222.880 --> 3228.240] tons of political everything. Everything is so nuanced right now that there isn't, it's not just +[3228.240 --> 3232.720] about your survival. It's about survival and looking good when you post this Instagram post and +[3232.720 --> 3237.120] making sure it doesn't offend this, this, this, this, it's getting more complex, not less. +[3237.120 --> 3240.480] And it's happening quick. It's like that, you know, hockey-shaped curve of just like, +[3240.480 --> 3244.320] whoop, complexity is driving up. Well, we did that right before the start. I moved a book, +[3244.320 --> 3248.080] right? Because I didn't want that book in YouTube. And I didn't want people commenting on that. +[3248.080 --> 3251.680] So like totally my perception of how people would respond to it. +[3251.680 --> 3255.680] Yeah. I mean, all these weird things, like I'm wearing two different socks right now, +[3255.680 --> 3259.440] two different kinds of socks. And I was like, no, maybe I'll cover my sock. And then I'm like, I don't +[3259.440 --> 3267.920] care about my sock. Like we do that. Like we just, we, and we over index these things that other people +[3267.920 --> 3273.440] don't even notice. So there's, when I was teaching psychology at CUNY, I had this, so I was wearing +[3273.440 --> 3279.200] the same j-crew pants every day because they were really comfortable. And I started like, +[3279.200 --> 3283.680] I'm just wearing the same pants like every single day. And I have like two pants. And I was like, +[3283.680 --> 3288.080] I think people are going to know, but I couldn't find these pants anymore. So I was in my head +[3288.080 --> 3293.680] about these pants and my students looking at my pants. So I was like, no, let me ask. So I basically +[3293.680 --> 3298.080] set up this cool thing where I was like, hey, everyone, like a muffin to the course. I have like 140 +[3298.080 --> 3306.240] students or whatever. I was like, there's something about me that hasn't really changed. What is it? +[3306.240 --> 3312.000] And I had everybody like fill out a little form and they gave it to me. And only one person knew, +[3312.000 --> 3318.960] I guess what, they worked at J-crew. And they said, you really love our pants. You must have so many. +[3319.680 --> 3326.480] And it was just this moment where I was like, no one cares. No one really cares. And I think we +[3326.480 --> 3332.080] spent so much time on those things and not enough time on connection and not enough time on really +[3332.080 --> 3337.200] like getting the other person, getting out of our own head into what's like actually occurring. +[3337.200 --> 3342.320] So it's interesting because I have a different approach to this, which is I believe nobody cares +[3342.320 --> 3349.040] in day to day life and interactions. A video lasts forever. So what people care about today and what +[3349.040 --> 3355.440] somebody's going to pick out in 10 or 15 years are two different things. And then that adds like a +[3355.440 --> 3363.360] layer of complexity to thinking about how things play across time or not about what people remember +[3363.360 --> 3367.840] or not about their experience in the moment. But now I can go back and analyze that video and like +[3367.840 --> 3373.280] nitpick everything. Well, this is my big problem too. So I've had to get a lot of personal coaching +[3373.280 --> 3378.000] with my coaches about video. So if I had to give a presentation in Madison Square Garden, +[3378.720 --> 3384.560] tonight I'd be ecstatic. But if I have to make a video that I know that's going to be out there +[3384.640 --> 3390.720] on it, I overthink. I overanaly. I mean, there's videos of me saying things because also, I mean, +[3390.720 --> 3396.240] I've changed my own opinions on things. So like I have videos out there that I made in 2016 about +[3396.240 --> 3401.280] poker tells that over the past eight years, I've completely changed my mind and thoughts about that. +[3401.280 --> 3407.280] There's videos of me saying things that I completely disagree with today. And I, oh yeah, +[3407.280 --> 3412.880] I struggle with the same thing. I think I have to go the what's the Rick Rubin? Rick Rubin had +[3412.880 --> 3417.200] great quote about like a creative process is like you're creating something for the time. +[3417.920 --> 3422.960] But I struggle with the same thing like video of just like, oh no, of like how this is going to +[3422.960 --> 3428.640] be perceived. Or you know, I'll be more effective at this kind of conversation a year from now. This +[3428.640 --> 3434.400] is my second podcast and God knows how many years like those type of things. But to people really +[3434.400 --> 3439.920] care, I think we care more than you know, they do. You brought up dating. What are the things that +[3439.920 --> 3446.000] we can take away from this conversation and apply to dating, whether we're a guy, a girl, +[3446.000 --> 3453.120] it doesn't matter how can we read into the first few interactions with somebody from +[3453.120 --> 3457.920] a am I trying to determine if I want to spend my life with this person or see them more or +[3458.640 --> 3463.920] how do we how do we use this information in that specific context? Yeah, dating is a tricky one +[3463.920 --> 3470.400] because dating is this like, it is this weird game still. Like in the beginning, it's this game +[3470.400 --> 3478.160] of like delayed attraction and delayed gratification. And it's so much nuance to it. I'll tell you +[3478.160 --> 3483.920] one thing. I think that so I used to do this. I used to teach a dating class in New York City. +[3484.800 --> 3489.520] And one of the cool things I would do is I asked people in the room like, what's their ideal +[3489.520 --> 3494.720] person? And they're like, right, a list. I'm a piece of paper. And then I go, okay, the last three +[3494.720 --> 3500.160] relationships in your life, how many of them met that criteria? And they would all like laugh and +[3500.160 --> 3506.240] it would never be one to one. Right. I think people have this real weird concept of, it's almost like +[3506.240 --> 3510.400] mimetic desire. Like there's a desire of what you think you want, but what you actually want. +[3510.400 --> 3515.040] And I feel like the first step in really dating is like, what do you really want? And for a super +[3515.040 --> 3518.640] young, super somebody's young and they're 20s or whatever, you don't know. It's going to take +[3518.640 --> 3524.480] some time to sort of like figure it out. But I think doing that work of like what makes me happy? +[3524.480 --> 3529.680] Like what am I looking for in somebody else? And not going for the traits of just, I mean, +[3529.680 --> 3533.280] Traktor is an instant quality for the most part, right? You see somebody you know if they're +[3533.280 --> 3537.120] attractive or you're attracted to them or not. But there's sort of like these deeper things. Like +[3537.120 --> 3543.680] I remember like me and my wife met it was so funny. We met in like 20, this 12 years ago, I met +[3543.680 --> 3547.680] and she met my class. I had a class called Body Language Explain. She was in the second class ever. +[3548.320 --> 3554.880] And she walks in and I was like, okay, what do we got here? And during the, she sits down and then +[3554.880 --> 3562.080] during during our conversations, this she on my bookshelf, she said, you know, you remind me of like, +[3562.080 --> 3566.000] you remind me of like Tim Ferris a little bit like a New York City Tim Ferris. And I was like, +[3567.040 --> 3571.840] it has attractive girl. This is before Tim was like Tim Ferris, right? It was just kind of like four +[3571.840 --> 3577.040] hour body had just came out before I work week. And I was like, and she really read that book. +[3577.120 --> 3580.560] And I she's like, oh, I love him. I love his books and did it. And I was just kind of like, +[3580.560 --> 3585.680] huh, like it was this qualifier that was like different. And I was like, yeah, I think I'd like to, +[3585.680 --> 3589.920] I never thought that I never had the concept that my partner was going to share my interest at that +[3589.920 --> 3594.880] age. Right. I just because the women I had met were an interest in this kind of stuff. And I met +[3594.880 --> 3598.640] somebody that was like really interested in self development. And I was like, I didn't realize how +[3598.640 --> 3603.840] important this is to me. And it was so funny because then it was all these things that are like +[3603.840 --> 3609.600] truly important to me at the time and continued to grow that solidified this sort of relationship. +[3609.600 --> 3616.160] And then there's all the other game type stuff that you got to do. And it's it's even very +[3616.160 --> 3622.080] difficult to even articulate. I can tell you what not to do. I can tell you try not to be someone +[3622.080 --> 3629.120] you're not don't everybody's got a song playing. And sometimes you just need to dial the volume up +[3629.120 --> 3633.920] and down. Some people try to play a completely different song. So they try to become someone +[3633.920 --> 3638.000] completely different to be more of a chameleon for that person. And after three or four +[3638.000 --> 3643.280] dates, it's just like, this is not really me. You don't want to be too much yourself and too +[3643.280 --> 3649.040] authentic and too straightforward. But it's funny. Our first date, my first study ever was on dates. +[3649.040 --> 3654.560] So I rented a restaurant in New York City. This was in 2008 in the subprime mortgage crisis. I put +[3655.040 --> 3660.800] add on Craigslist $50 to set you up on a 30 minute date. I got like 300 applications. And I +[3660.800 --> 3664.800] set up a series of dates. People came in 30 minute date. And then the guy would leave. And I would +[3664.800 --> 3670.480] ask what's going on like was and we found that the so interesting is when you show people these +[3670.480 --> 3675.680] dates, what they perceive to be the best date is not the best date. So the best date is the one +[3675.680 --> 3681.040] that was a little bit more awkward, a little bit weird, but it had more depth to it. And those people +[3681.040 --> 3686.080] connected at a much deeper level, the surface ones, they look because and then you also see all +[3686.080 --> 3692.480] people's biases. So you see, I show people two people in a date and like in one, the female is by +[3692.480 --> 3697.360] society standards far more attractive than the male. And people immediately don't think that she's +[3697.360 --> 3702.560] interested in him because of that reason. So they just met you projecting all your stuff onto the +[3702.560 --> 3707.360] world around you every single second. And that really showed you. Are there questions we can ask +[3707.360 --> 3714.560] on dates that are more revealing of so other person is I don't I don't I if the best paradigm +[3714.560 --> 3720.400] for dates is storytelling, never questions. Because when you fall into this question and all right, +[3720.400 --> 3726.000] so if we take if we write a story out, let's say you told me like before we started this, you're +[3726.000 --> 3731.280] telling me a story about your kids, right? And we list that out. There were so many threads of +[3731.280 --> 3735.600] connection between me and you in that story. It would have been impossible for you to do that in +[3735.600 --> 3740.240] a question and answer. So like even when I was dating people, I when I was like helping people with +[3740.240 --> 3744.560] dates, I would say start off with story. So as soon as you get in the table, I'm just like, Hey, +[3744.560 --> 3749.040] are you just like the craziest thing just happened or just get into some sort of story story. +[3749.040 --> 3756.240] A story are it still is the single most powerful communication tool, bar none. The problem is people +[3756.240 --> 3761.520] are now in our society going into performance storytelling. Yeah, yeah, which is a lot different +[3761.600 --> 3766.160] than social storytelling. So performance storytelling is that when I was seven years old, +[3767.120 --> 3771.360] something happened that changed the course of my life. And it's kind of like I find it icky. +[3772.480 --> 3775.520] A real story is just telling a story like you tell your friends, but it has a beginning and it +[3775.520 --> 3781.120] hasn't. And I find that tell more stories and dating. It will really show you how you connect to +[3781.120 --> 3788.320] someone. That's fascinating advice. How did nonverbal styles work across cultures? No, they're so +[3788.320 --> 3794.080] different. This trick is this. So I have this thing called the anywhere on the planet approach. +[3794.080 --> 3799.760] And the sort of concept is you can be dropped anywhere in the planet and you could observe and you +[3799.760 --> 3806.640] can look at things. So you can look at like the proxemic differences between a Midwestern interaction +[3806.640 --> 3812.960] versus the Middle East. Middle East people, they talk quicker together. The behavior will be perceived +[3812.960 --> 3816.720] as maybe a little bit more aggressive in the way that I move in this. It's a cultural construct. +[3816.720 --> 3821.040] It's how they interact. It's not aggressive to them. Not aggressive to them. They're fine. In New York +[3821.040 --> 3827.040] City, the way I was raised around my friends, we were brutal to each other constantly making fun +[3827.040 --> 3832.560] of each other, insulting people left and right. It was part of the cultural construct. Or even the way +[3832.560 --> 3837.600] you walk in New York. Oh, I mean, still, I mean, pick out a tourist just by how they're walking, +[3837.600 --> 3842.480] right? I mean, still to this day, everywhere I go, I'm like, can you hurry up already? Exactly. +[3842.720 --> 3847.520] Why do you come from? Yeah. Like, what are you doing? There's like six, I still get frustrated. +[3847.520 --> 3852.080] How does one person take up the whole sidewalk? Yeah. Like those kind. So that's one of the +[3852.080 --> 3856.400] interesting things. Like now I just get like really interested. So I see someone on the elevator +[3856.400 --> 3862.480] and there's two people and they're blocking the other side. And I'm just like, you really don't +[3862.480 --> 3867.440] have the concept that other people are and I don't think people do. I don't think people have that +[3868.080 --> 3873.040] theory of mind that other people are interacting in this world. And it's why it's so infuriating +[3873.040 --> 3878.640] for the people who do have that. But I just don't like even on the plane today, somebody was literally +[3878.640 --> 3884.320] holding back yesterday. Everybody is walking on this line and they're trying to get their little +[3884.320 --> 3889.040] luggage out and they just and then their wallet falls and they have to take their wallet out +[3889.040 --> 3893.680] and tuck it into their, there's a world happening around you. What's going on? +[3894.640 --> 3900.000] That's like my one prompt for everybody listening is like there's a world happening around you. +[3900.000 --> 3906.880] And I think it's very healthy. Just sometimes make your behavior about others and not yourself. +[3906.880 --> 3912.480] So how can you optimize your behavior for the people around you as opposed to what you're going +[3912.480 --> 3917.360] through? It's a very helpful exercise for people that are in their head. And I think the best +[3917.360 --> 3921.520] communicators and the people that are the most well liked are consciously doing this. They're +[3921.520 --> 3926.800] putting other people first and it's just sort of like a reaction or a way of doing it. +[3926.800 --> 3932.400] I mean, I walked in here and I was like just as a default approach, they were unloading gear +[3932.400 --> 3937.440] and I was like, Hey, did you need help? And I picked up a stand and brought it in like it's just +[3938.000 --> 3941.920] because I know what it's like to carry all these damn stands down the block. It's just putting +[3941.920 --> 3946.720] others first. It can change your life and change what you get back. You just can't do it from a place +[3946.720 --> 3951.600] of trying to get something. It's super weird. If all of a sudden I bring this stand in and I'm like, +[3951.600 --> 3956.560] Hey, guys, I have a shoot after this. Were you willing to do it? Because I was like, I see where +[3956.560 --> 3961.760] it's going. Right? So it's insincere. It's totally insincere. Right? There's an order to it. And I think +[3962.960 --> 3967.200] approaching life from that perspective, I promise you, I always say this, you can never measure the +[3967.200 --> 3975.040] ROI of a social interaction. You have no idea what one interaction will lead to. I mean, I went to +[3977.040 --> 3982.000] a meetup and I met you and now I'm here. Right? Like just never know what one thing is going to do. +[3982.000 --> 3987.280] So it makes sense that you want to show up in a way that's about others as much as possible in +[3987.280 --> 3992.560] these interactions because it comes back to, it comes back. And even if it doesn't come back, I +[3992.560 --> 3996.720] tend to think you've, most people feel better about themselves knowing they're four others than +[3996.720 --> 4002.720] four themselves. My good friend Peter Kaufman has a saying, which is go positive and go first and +[4002.720 --> 4008.640] you really unlock the world in a way that you can't even anticipate the second, third, fourth, +[4008.640 --> 4014.400] fifth order consequences of that. But his theory is most people don't go positive, go first. +[4014.400 --> 4017.600] They want to go positive, but they want the other person to go positive first. +[4017.600 --> 4022.880] Yes. So they sit around waiting for people to recognize their potential for the world to give them +[4022.880 --> 4027.040] what they're, what they're owed. And because they're doing that, nothing happens because there's +[4027.040 --> 4032.880] no action, so there's no response. That's absolutely genius. And in my opinion, that's what leadership +[4032.880 --> 4039.680] is. So leadership is that stepping up and doing that, it's not waiting for it. I'm going to lead. +[4039.680 --> 4043.360] And I love it because like everybody can be a leader. You've been like on an elevator and it's +[4043.360 --> 4047.200] like awkward. And like the person who speaks up first and everybody laughs, it's like leadership +[4047.200 --> 4052.400] right there. You broke the cultural norm and you said something. I always get in this sometimes +[4052.560 --> 4056.240] and I'm like, oh, it's the awkward elevator silence. It's a perfect, everybody laughs. +[4056.240 --> 4061.120] Laps instantly. Right. One of switch gears a little bit. What's the Rockefeller method? +[4062.080 --> 4069.200] Okay. So I read, I think it was Titan. The book and there was a lot of lessons in that book, +[4069.200 --> 4075.040] but there was one story that fascinated me. And it was John D Rockefeller was in an oil +[4075.040 --> 4082.000] barreling facility. And he was watching his group of people barrel these oil barrels. And like, +[4082.000 --> 4086.640] back in the day, you would take tar and you'd put tar all around the barrel and then you put it +[4086.640 --> 4091.760] and you'd hammer it. And he's sitting there watching this and he's going, why do you use nine or +[4091.760 --> 4097.440] 10 or whatever pieces of tar? And they were like, I don't know Mr. Rockefeller, it's just what we do. +[4097.760 --> 4102.960] And it was and he was like, well, can you find out? Do it, do like a little study and find out how +[4102.960 --> 4109.920] much can you do it without without ruining the integrity of it? And I was like, that's absolutely +[4109.920 --> 4114.160] fascinating. Like that way of thinking. And it's so cool to be like just Rockefeller sitting +[4114.160 --> 4120.160] there as like Titan of industry, looking at this really small process and being like, how can we +[4120.160 --> 4124.960] optimize that? So after reading that, I made this like Rockefeller method internally where every quarter, +[4124.960 --> 4131.040] I would sort of view things from that perspective, right? And it comes up in weird like sass ways +[4131.040 --> 4135.680] right now where it's like, oh, wow, we spent a lot of money on this. Like reach out to them and see +[4135.760 --> 4141.200] if we could maybe get a bulk discount. And the amount that comes back from that method is absurd. +[4141.200 --> 4146.160] Like just it just works. And then also just think about it like in my own life, like, where am I +[4146.160 --> 4153.360] putting extra tar on that I don't need to put tar on? And it's so helpful because I am a very big +[4153.360 --> 4158.560] control. Do it myself, ethos. It's like often hard for people to work for me because I'm like, +[4158.560 --> 4162.640] I'll just do it. I'll just do it. And I have to almost get people around me that I'm like, listen, +[4162.640 --> 4166.720] the thing I value the most is when you say, no, I'll do it and I'll do it better than you. +[4167.280 --> 4171.760] And then you back that up. Like, and it's and I need that sort of culture around me. But the Rockefeller +[4171.760 --> 4177.920] method was very helpful for that. What else did you take away from that book, Titan? Or lessons +[4177.920 --> 4186.800] from Rockefeller? So many, like, I found the, when he was discussing how he didn't know how to +[4186.880 --> 4192.960] give away his wealth. I thought it was like the most interesting problem ever. He's like, I need to +[4192.960 --> 4198.400] build a whole, I don't know how to do this anymore. And how people were constantly asking, just the +[4199.360 --> 4207.120] the ruthfulness of some of it all of just the early monopolies were not a thing and just squeeze +[4207.120 --> 4212.640] out, squeeze out, squeeze out everything. I found that really interesting. Yeah, I mean, the funny +[4212.800 --> 4217.360] thing is the thing I take away most from that book is that one story, is that Rockefeller method +[4217.360 --> 4221.920] out of everything. Also, I learned this in graduate school at a really good professor. I was +[4221.920 --> 4227.120] sure remembered his name, but he, I was teaching, it was like a terrorism class or something like that. +[4227.120 --> 4231.840] And he, the way we did it was we had to read six books in the class. Terrorism. Yeah, so I got +[4231.840 --> 4236.240] like my certificate in terrorism studies. Okay. Because I went to John J, which was a criminal justice +[4236.240 --> 4240.880] fool. Yeah, yeah. Sorry. Sorry. It was really cool. We had like people from +[4241.760 --> 4246.960] intelligence agencies, common gift presentations and do all these things. So what he had us do is, +[4246.960 --> 4252.800] he had his read like six books. And the only assignment for the entire class was to read a book +[4252.800 --> 4257.920] and take five passages out of the book, highlight it and write why they're important to you. +[4259.440 --> 4264.800] And genius. I was like, it's asked, I still do that to this day. So I still try to like, I have +[4264.800 --> 4269.040] like a Kindle connection where I just like highlight certain things because you highlight so much and +[4269.040 --> 4273.760] then it all goes in one ear out the other ear. But if you highlight five things that could actually +[4273.760 --> 4278.640] improve or impact your life in a certain way or change your perspective, so much more tangible +[4278.640 --> 4283.280] value from a book. So tell me your workflow. You go from Kindle to notion if I remember correctly. +[4283.280 --> 4291.600] Yeah. Good. Kindle to read wise, read wise to notion. Okay. And then what do you do with it? So +[4291.600 --> 4296.560] like I have this different colors mean different things. So I'm trying to improve my writing right +[4296.560 --> 4303.280] now. So blue is up. I like the way of sentence or a paragraph is structured. Red is I need to do +[4303.280 --> 4308.800] like more research on this. Yellow is one of those things that I want to sort of like take away from +[4308.800 --> 4313.760] a lifetime perspective. And I've been trying to also have a difficult time retaining a lot of what +[4313.760 --> 4319.280] I read. I'll remember aspects of this day for the rest of my life. Like I'm very good at like +[4319.280 --> 4324.160] experiential memory. But like things just go in one ear out the other ear. So I've been doing a +[4324.160 --> 4328.480] better job of like highlighting things that I want to remember. And I've been I'm wanting to use +[4329.440 --> 4334.000] this like Japanese method of flashcards. Yeah. It's just basically create flashcards for my events. +[4334.000 --> 4337.360] So I guess it's hard to keep things. So I remember when I used to teach I used to like have all +[4337.360 --> 4341.920] these like cool things in my head that I could pull from. And now that I'm doing more like podcasts +[4341.920 --> 4346.800] like I'll know a ton of researchers that I could reference. But I forgot their names. Yeah. +[4346.800 --> 4351.120] So my yeah, that person from you pen like I'd rather snow their name. So just trying to be more +[4351.120 --> 4355.520] intelligent about how I remember the sources and the things that are leading up to it. And then +[4355.520 --> 4362.240] there's just certain like people or writers or authors that I use as like anchor points like one +[4362.240 --> 4367.760] of them's like Robert Sopolsky like how wise you were to get all sorts of determinism behavior. He's +[4367.760 --> 4375.200] like while he's deep in biology. He's pretty cross discipline like he'll pull from different areas. +[4375.200 --> 4379.200] So it sends you down all these rabbit holes. And I like to like document it in the best way that I +[4379.200 --> 4384.960] possibly can. But I think AI is making that a lot easier now. Well, let's switch to your master +[4384.960 --> 4394.160] researcher. I'm curious about your process around using chat GPT to get up to speed on something +[4394.160 --> 4401.680] or how do you leverage AI to go about learning a new subject. Yeah, it's ridiculous. Because six +[4401.680 --> 4406.800] months ago I was like, I don't know, like it would just make things up. And now it's great. So one +[4406.800 --> 4412.400] of my big things is I say I have a prompt that's if I'm looking at an academic discipline that I +[4412.400 --> 4418.560] don't know a lot about, I say I want you to imagine this academic discipline as the branch. And I +[4418.560 --> 4425.920] want you to imagine the subcategories as the I'm sorry, as the branch, I want you to imagine the +[4425.920 --> 4432.400] base of the tree as the discipline, the branch as a sub discipline and the leaves as the +[4432.400 --> 4437.520] academics that correspond to that. And it does it for you. So like it goes into neurobiology, +[4437.520 --> 4442.960] like I've been really interested in predictive processing, which is this sort of universal theory for +[4442.960 --> 4449.600] how consciousness really is like how we process our world. And it's a rabbit hole to say the least, +[4449.600 --> 4455.280] right? So it has all these different philosophical philosophical approach all of that in order to +[4455.280 --> 4460.160] understand that world, I need to understand the bigger macro principles behind it and like who the +[4460.160 --> 4466.240] key players are in it. And I mean, you still have to do that research or have a research team +[4466.240 --> 4470.240] and have somebody like do this. And now I literally do it in a couple of prompts. It's absurd. +[4470.800 --> 4476.800] It's like absurd for workflows. So then what do you do with it? You have the leaves, you have the people's +[4476.800 --> 4482.560] name, and then I try to look for, so I try to look for what are the three biggest sources of conflict. +[4482.560 --> 4487.200] So what are they disagreeing about? Like where's the big fight in there to look for that? +[4487.200 --> 4494.960] Are you asking chat GPT? I lately have been asking chat GPT and the responses are pretty good. +[4494.960 --> 4499.760] It's pretty good. The problem. So what I I sort of back tested this and did it on things that I +[4499.760 --> 4505.520] haven't intimate knowledge about, right? So I was like, what are the discrepancies of research in +[4505.520 --> 4512.640] universal facial expressions and emotionality? And I'm like, oh, whoa, but I did it like six months +[4512.640 --> 4516.720] ago and it wasn't, oh, whoa, it was bad. I was like, you just made up a person. This is not real. +[4516.720 --> 4521.360] This is misappropriated. It is getting considerably better to the point of where I'm really trying +[4521.360 --> 4526.000] starting to trust this tool in six months from now. I think I have full confidence in these things. +[4526.000 --> 4530.400] And also you could do like cool things like we have a pretty robust database of all like the +[4530.400 --> 4534.320] PDFs on non-verbal behavior from every academic journal that I've just been collecting. I could +[4534.320 --> 4538.160] build my own little language model on that and just ask questions and query that. I mean, there's +[4538.160 --> 4542.720] different ways of doing it. But I mean, AI has helped me with behavioral coding more than anything +[4542.720 --> 4547.520] else. So I started this other company called behavioral robotics with the goal is to teach machines +[4547.520 --> 4552.160] to read human behavior because if reading human behavior is all about these complex decision +[4552.160 --> 4556.480] trees, there's no reason from a first principle perspective that a machine can't do the same thing. +[4556.480 --> 4561.040] In fact, it should be way better than we are. It should be way better because the camera on you +[4561.040 --> 4565.760] is not just Blake's worldview. It's all these modeled out worldviews that can predict and understand +[4565.760 --> 4569.280] and I think it can be something really special. It's going to take a lot of time to get there. +[4569.280 --> 4576.000] But you know, my first big study on Beyond Tells, I spent like a stupid amount of money. Like maybe +[4576.000 --> 4581.760] quarter million dollars manually coding. Like we counted 550,000 blinks. Somebody so we had a +[4581.760 --> 4586.160] team of like 70 people sit there and every time someone blinked, they clicked M on a keyboard. +[4586.960 --> 4592.720] And it got cross validated and made sure it was right and all that's not anymore. My machines do it. +[4592.720 --> 4596.800] I mean, just run it. Amazon Web Services. Every blink exactly when it happens. +[4597.440 --> 4600.720] Accuracy is incredible. It's amazing. +[4601.920 --> 4606.160] So how are you using it aside from that? Like what else are you doing with it? Because you had +[4606.160 --> 4612.560] some interesting takes on like how you're leveraging AI. Yeah. So like I am using it to develop +[4612.560 --> 4618.560] inventories and scales to better predict people that have social challenges. So for example, +[4618.560 --> 4623.600] like we're building something right now that's like a facial heat map. So basically, +[4624.640 --> 4629.920] it could understand when I'm saying so I'm having a language just by words, right? So basically, +[4630.560 --> 4635.360] our system takes all your movement and Brits down to raw data. Coordinate data. So like where +[4635.360 --> 4640.400] the hands and fixed points of the hands are moving. Facial data. And a lot of this stuff is you can +[4640.400 --> 4645.280] do it open source. But we're starting to refine it. So we're starting to understand like the composition +[4645.280 --> 4649.840] of wrinkles and people's faces and then understanding how their facial movement changes the wrinkles +[4649.840 --> 4656.000] to better classify behavior. And we know every word that everybody says at every second it says. +[4656.000 --> 4661.360] So then in interactions, we could easily create summaries and inventories for like, +[4662.000 --> 4666.640] this is something where this person should have shook in their head or sown some sort of facial +[4666.640 --> 4673.200] reaction, but they didn't. So a great example of this is a personal example. My dad passed away +[4673.200 --> 4678.560] like literally two weeks ago from a two year battle with ALS, right? So horrible disease, horrible. +[4678.560 --> 4684.720] But to see how people handle death and react to death from my level of expertise has just been +[4684.720 --> 4689.120] really fascinating. So some people are like, oh, so like like why aren't you coming? I'm like, +[4689.120 --> 4695.200] oh, my dad passed away. And they don't have the mimicking like the amp like, I'm so sorry. They +[4695.200 --> 4699.440] don't have to do that. They're like, oh, okay. And then I'm like, and I have to know. So I'm like, +[4699.920 --> 4703.600] in that moment, you just, I just feel really weird about death. I'm like, okay, thanks, +[4703.600 --> 4708.000] but you should probably tell people that because that's going to impact. So we can use machines to sort +[4708.000 --> 4712.320] of identify that, right? We could basically know that like there's a low level of facial animation +[4712.320 --> 4717.920] in this person's face when this person said something that there should have been social coordination. +[4717.920 --> 4721.680] And that's the truth. Like, I think all of these like, I mean, +[4722.880 --> 4727.200] so it's almost like blind spot identifying for people because it's like, hey, you should have +[4727.200 --> 4733.920] responded in this one way. You responded in a different way. That's not a judgment on how you +[4733.920 --> 4738.720] responded, but we're going to tell you how that's perceived exactly. So everything we do is about +[4738.720 --> 4743.280] perception, not meaning. The biggest problem with this industry of non-verbal behavior and body +[4743.280 --> 4748.320] language is it's pushed towards meaning, not perception. And the truth is it's just understanding +[4748.320 --> 4753.120] that your behavior is outside the distribution of what would be perceived as socially relevant. +[4753.120 --> 4757.520] And that's a lot more complex. Like all of those like, but there's also another angle to this. +[4757.520 --> 4766.240] As we keep talking about this, this is amazing for classifying behavior, but our society progresses +[4766.240 --> 4772.240] because of people who are outside of the norm. Like on an individual basis, it might be very +[4772.240 --> 4778.480] detrimental to you on a societal basis. It's usually advantages to society to have people who +[4778.480 --> 4784.400] operate outside the norms. So I wonder like to what extent if we try to reign people in to be more +[4784.400 --> 4790.320] normal, we're actually giving up sort of we're almost putting in ceiling on progress. Yeah, so this +[4790.320 --> 4795.040] is my whole thing. So we want to be to the right side of the bell curve, not the left. Yeah. So I'm +[4795.040 --> 4800.320] never pushing people towards normal. I'm getting them to understand normal to be themselves in the most +[4800.320 --> 4805.840] powerful way as possible. And to make sure they don't have behavioral blind spots that are completely +[4805.840 --> 4810.640] going to be like really ostracized by society. Like, okay, you can't do that kind of thing. But I, +[4810.640 --> 4816.160] there's nothing more that I love when a person is just themselves and just themselves. Like it, +[4816.160 --> 4821.360] and that's a very attractive quality. That's like, that's the definition of charisma in a lot of +[4821.360 --> 4824.960] ways. Like somebody just walks in the room and they they own it. And you're like, who is this person? +[4824.960 --> 4831.120] Like they must be someone. They must be something. But the truth is first, you want to understand what +[4831.120 --> 4836.960] normal is before you can break normal, right? Like that's how you know you're doing something that's +[4836.960 --> 4841.040] on the right side of the bell curve. And I say that because when you try something that's on the +[4841.040 --> 4844.800] right side of the bell curve and it doesn't work, you become the left side of the bell curve. So +[4844.800 --> 4848.240] that's why you're always trying to push in the right way. Yeah. I like that a lot. +[4848.880 --> 4855.520] Is there any other things to use chat GPT for? I should use it more and more. I mean, we use, +[4855.520 --> 4860.960] I mean, I'm using chat PT to build some of them. This is kind of meta, but I'm using chat GT to +[4860.960 --> 4865.840] build some of the language models that index and label communication because it's phenomenal at +[4865.840 --> 4874.320] that. So, so for example, I was like trying to create a mechanism for determining assertion in text. +[4874.960 --> 4883.680] So I said, I posted in chat GPT like 300 separate like words, not words phrases, that were from +[4883.680 --> 4888.720] a conversation. And I said, I want you to create an inventory on a scale from one to five +[4888.800 --> 4892.480] measuring assertion. First of all, what do you think is the opposite of assertion? And it's like, +[4892.480 --> 4898.080] oh, probably passive. So all right, so assertive and passive rank all of these. It was phenomenal at +[4898.880 --> 4904.160] it. It was like perfectly mimicked my like what I perceived to be nuanced understanding of like +[4904.160 --> 4908.800] the way someone structures a phrase. And then you ask it, I said, okay, better yet, give me the +[4908.800 --> 4915.120] rationality behind why? And it was like, because this answer is a little bit short and the other +[4915.120 --> 4920.560] person's a little bit larger. And it's like, yeah, you got it. It's phenomenal. But it goes into +[4920.560 --> 4924.880] like hundreds of details that we can't even exactly comprehend. We can't even begin. And like to me, +[4924.880 --> 4930.400] this is my world of nuance. So I'm like, oh, this thing gets it. So I'm using it. I can do that to +[4930.400 --> 4936.960] build out inventories super quickly. Like it would have taken a lot of time and effort to do that. +[4936.960 --> 4941.840] I'd probably hire some like some PhDs to like sit there and bubble. And now I just like, +[4942.480 --> 4947.680] it's incredible. I don't know how else to describe it. I mean, yes, it's not AGI. Yes, +[4947.680 --> 4953.360] there's so many other things. Yes, there's flaws. Yes, there's this. But as a tool, it is incredible. +[4954.400 --> 4960.080] You use coaching as a tool. You have a lot of coaches. Tell me about the process you use to +[4960.080 --> 4968.480] select coaches. And what's the difference between a great coach and a good coach for you? That's +[4968.480 --> 4976.400] great question. Okay. So process is not so much. I'm always, I always look for people that either I +[4976.400 --> 4981.760] have had some sort of experience with I like to follow people also or I like to be coached by people +[4981.760 --> 4990.000] that I believe are living their in alignment with their values. Like I know coaches out there in +[4990.000 --> 4994.240] the world that I'm like, you're saying that, but you're told team hate to like, how could you ever +[4994.240 --> 4999.200] coach that? So I'm looking for that first. Do they show up? Because I tend to stop listening to +[4999.200 --> 5005.040] somebody if I don't see that they're they're teaching something and not applying it. I also just like +[5007.280 --> 5012.000] maybe like a tougher coach. I want somebody that's going to call me out on my bullshit because I +[5012.000 --> 5016.720] can be very convincing and I can argue and they've been in a stop that's bullshit. Like one of my +[5016.720 --> 5023.120] coaches, Joss on him and Tasha, she is very quick to call me out on anything. She's like, that doesn't +[5023.120 --> 5028.000] sound right. Like she just gets to the point and gets to the heart of what's going on. And my other +[5028.000 --> 5032.160] coach, John McImmorgan is very good at saying like, well, you said this two weeks ago and now you're +[5032.160 --> 5037.200] not saying this. Like I think it's very difficult to get people to hold us accountable and for us to +[5037.200 --> 5042.640] be our word and all that. And then also I just coaches for other things like running and I just +[5042.640 --> 5048.000] like coaching. Yeah. So if you're a coach and you don't have three coaches, you should stop being +[5048.000 --> 5051.440] a coach. Well, it's really interesting, right? Because it's a shortcut to sort of +[5052.400 --> 5056.560] expertise in a way, which is like, they don't have the expertise. They shouldn't be a coach. +[5057.280 --> 5061.280] But from your point of view, it's like I can hire a coach who's done this, taught it. +[5062.000 --> 5066.080] I can get up to speed rather quickly, no matter what the subject is, whether it's holding me +[5066.080 --> 5071.520] accountable or like learning how to run longer distances or whatever objective I'm trying to achieve. +[5071.520 --> 5077.440] I now have access to sort of a better quality of thinking that I do in my immediate vicinity. +[5078.320 --> 5084.320] 100% and there's so many different and also just like I'm at point A, I want to get to point B. +[5084.960 --> 5089.760] And I want to get to point B, but I want to minimize the suffering that I'm getting to point B. +[5090.640 --> 5095.200] Find people to help me along that way. It's also my biggest. So if I were to go back, I would say +[5095.200 --> 5098.960] this, I would go back 21 years old and it was like what advice would you give your 21 year-old +[5098.960 --> 5106.240] self? I would say get a coach, but my 21 year-old self would probably tell my 38-year-old self to draw +[5106.240 --> 5111.040] off. I don't need to make that right. Well, let's go back to that a little bit. I did +[5111.040 --> 5116.400] want to touch on this before we wrap this up, which is you were a terrible student up until +[5116.400 --> 5122.560] university. Yeah. What changed? I felt like a complete failure. I think I had this identity that I +[5122.560 --> 5127.040] was a smart person and I went to school and at this moment, where this kid next to me was going +[5127.040 --> 5132.080] to West Point, kid to the left was going to Harvard. And I was like I can't believe I just wasted +[5132.080 --> 5135.920] this whole thing and I was like this is when everything changes and literally it was the +[5137.520 --> 5143.520] it was a massive identity shift for me. I had two big identity shifts. That that moment +[5143.520 --> 5147.680] when I shifted and when I started teaching psychology, those are the two big things that shifted me. +[5147.680 --> 5153.120] Go back to high school. Yeah. What was the shift? I was just like I'm going to take school very +[5153.120 --> 5157.280] seriously. I'm going to go to Harvard. I'm going to get my JDMBA. I made a decision that this is +[5157.280 --> 5163.840] what I want and it went a completely different way. But I still worked like that. Then your actions +[5163.840 --> 5169.840] aligned with that identity? Yeah. 100%. I was sitting I remember vivid conversations with my mom. +[5169.840 --> 5175.280] She's like Blake, like was the difference between like a 95 and an 88? I'm like you don't understand. +[5175.280 --> 5180.000] Like I need my GPA to be four. It was like the first time I really like applied myself to something. +[5180.000 --> 5184.160] I mean, except for like maybe gaming or a couple of other things that I did when I was younger. +[5184.880 --> 5191.120] But I over corrected to say the least. And I was like stressed and dealt with a lot of other +[5191.120 --> 5197.280] things. And I think I calibrated it like 21 or 22 to like, okay, now I know not to. And also +[5197.280 --> 5202.560] there's just like weird systemic things. So in like city university, if anybody's still going +[5202.560 --> 5210.960] there, like CUNY has the weirdest grading system where an A is 92 and above from a numerical +[5211.520 --> 5218.960] point. So there's no point in getting 100 or 93. There's no difference. So like if you're studying +[5218.960 --> 5224.800] to get 100 in a test, it's stupid. Like study for 90, get 90s across everything. Be nice to the +[5224.800 --> 5229.600] professor. You'll get an A. So it was just like seeing all this type of stuff. And then also like +[5230.480 --> 5235.200] being in school had me like question a lot about psychology, question a lot about research. +[5235.200 --> 5239.360] I learned how to critically think. And then I applied that critical thinking to the which I +[5239.360 --> 5245.200] think was what you're supposed to do. But I'm like, this study seems kind of like bullshit. +[5245.200 --> 5249.600] Like there's not that many people here and like what's going on. And it really opened my eyes to +[5249.600 --> 5257.280] like the flaws of research and how data can be manipulated. I had a very early experience with +[5257.280 --> 5262.960] that where I had a my professor was an adjunct and he was the head of data analysis at the MTA at +[5262.960 --> 5268.000] the time. And I had just done a study in my like experimental design class. And I was like, +[5268.000 --> 5271.120] yeah, I'm doing this study. He goes, you seem really happy with your study. I was like, yeah, +[5271.120 --> 5276.240] he's like, give me the data set. I vividly remember handing him a flash drive that had SPSS, +[5276.240 --> 5279.840] my data set. He goes, what do you want it to show? I was like significance, of course. And he's +[5279.840 --> 5284.960] like watch this. And literally 10 minutes later, he's like, there you go. And it blew my mind. +[5284.960 --> 5289.200] It blew my mind. That man blew my mind about how data could be manipulated. And he taught me at a +[5289.200 --> 5294.800] very young age, he was like, this was happening everywhere around. And he was and he gave an entire +[5294.800 --> 5302.560] class on how data is manipulated in day to day life. And I remember being like, oh my god, +[5302.560 --> 5306.400] like this is so cool. I guess this is such a well, imagine now, right? You just +[5306.400 --> 5310.160] look at the chat, GBT. And you're like, I want to show this. Give me the logic. Give me the +[5310.160 --> 5315.280] reasoning. Lay it out with reference. And you got a draft paper right there. Oh, that's another +[5315.280 --> 5324.240] chat GBT point. So I probably spent maybe $150,000 in hiring data scientists to clean and to produce +[5324.240 --> 5331.440] dashboards for beyond tells chat GBT. I could have done it all in a weekend. 20 bucks. Yeah. Yeah, +[5331.440 --> 5339.760] just sit in there. The insights are incredible. Yeah. I like the point about not, you know, after 93, +[5339.760 --> 5345.600] it doesn't matter. City might as well just optimize for 93. But that's how this is the systemic problem +[5345.600 --> 5350.400] in organizations. Well, so set the metrics and you're like, oh, okay. So I need to do this more than +[5350.400 --> 5354.640] this if I want to get move up, right? Well, so this is interesting. One of my kids came home and he +[5354.640 --> 5359.920] had a science fair project. And I was like, oh, that's an interesting topic. And I didn't seem like +[5359.920 --> 5364.240] something super interested in. I was like, why'd you pick that? He's like, well, if I picked what I +[5364.240 --> 5369.200] wanted to, I'd probably win. And then I'd have to present at like the regional science fair. And I +[5369.200 --> 5373.040] don't want to present it the reason on science fair. But I want to get a good grade. But I don't want +[5373.040 --> 5378.480] to get like a really good grade. So he's like, he's already thinking in terms of like optimizing for, +[5378.480 --> 5383.920] it's a really interesting approach. I mean, that's just like a sign of hyperintelligence in my +[5383.920 --> 5388.960] opinion. Like, it really is. Well, no, but that's like the joke where a lot of people, +[5388.960 --> 5393.280] well, like a lot of wealthy people would be like, oh, I wasn't smart. I was lazy. And I'm like, +[5393.280 --> 5399.200] yeah, but laziness in bed. That's a little sophistication, right? I get to interview the best +[5399.200 --> 5405.760] people in the world. How can I ask better questions? Oh, well, these really good questions. So one of +[5405.760 --> 5410.400] the things I'm doing right now, I can do it on you. So we're doing a thing on how to ask better +[5410.400 --> 5415.280] questions. So we're taking some really good question people like one of the people that I've seen +[5415.280 --> 5420.560] evolve is Tim Ferriss, his ability to ask questions in a certain way. And we basically take every +[5420.560 --> 5425.360] single interview he's ever had and we analyze all the behavior. And we're looking at the nonverbal +[5425.360 --> 5429.600] and contextual language patterns that do that. So I'll have to let you know because this is something +[5429.600 --> 5435.760] I'm like, I could do it for you too. Yeah, yeah. Um, I think, oh, God, those early interviews are terrible. +[5435.760 --> 5440.560] But that's, that's like the beauty of, so like, I've seen so many people, like, people that put +[5440.560 --> 5445.680] themselves out there, like, I find it so magical to see someone shift over years. And it's something +[5445.680 --> 5449.600] that I've been like, almost like afraid to do on video in a lot of ways, like not giving myself +[5449.600 --> 5453.760] permission to just be myself on video on them myself in person, but something about the video, +[5453.760 --> 5459.520] like we spoke about is like, whoa, but you see people change and you see people like warm up and you +[5459.520 --> 5466.080] see people become different over time. And I feel like that's so that that process is so much cooler +[5466.080 --> 5470.880] than like just seeing a master, like anybody that puts themselves out there and I'm paused to you +[5470.880 --> 5476.640] for doing this right now, you're seeing their improvement from where they started to where they +[5476.640 --> 5482.720] ended. And I think the lessons in improvement are the greatest lessons. Like, why did they go from +[5482.720 --> 5487.680] the first 10 podcasts, they're asking questions this way. Then the next 10, they shifted like, why? +[5488.240 --> 5495.040] Right. And understanding that context is, oh, that's a good one is like, ask somebody, +[5495.920 --> 5500.880] is there any context that you think I need to know in order for me to ask a better question or to +[5500.880 --> 5507.760] make this a better question? Because sometimes people don't give enough context and they have to be +[5507.760 --> 5512.000] prompted to, but once you give them the ability to give them more context, that works. And that's +[5512.000 --> 5516.000] also a quick tip. That's probably my single biggest communication tip for everybody in a corporate +[5516.000 --> 5523.040] culture. The more context, the better. It's just that simple. I like this works. One question before +[5523.040 --> 5527.920] the last question. So the penultimate question, I guess, is we're talking about writing earlier +[5527.920 --> 5536.160] and the power of writing in terms of thinking, can you expand on that? It's over time I have seen more +[5536.160 --> 5541.840] and more that it is probably one of the most powerful self-developed mediums, self-developed mediums +[5541.920 --> 5546.400] over anything. I think that people were in a war, especially for those who are thinkers, I know I'm +[5546.400 --> 5550.960] a thinker, I spend a lot of time in my head not being present and thinking and processing. +[5550.960 --> 5556.560] There's no checks and balances up here. There's no one to stop and say, hey, that's kind of not the +[5556.560 --> 5561.760] right idea or not. When you write something out, you're creating reality, you're taking your thoughts +[5561.760 --> 5566.960] and you're putting it out into reality. And then there's an ability to critically examine that. +[5566.960 --> 5570.960] And I just feel like it's so much help. It's so helpful. It allows you to structure your ideas. +[5570.960 --> 5575.760] It makes you a better thinker. It makes you a better communicator. It's evidence of how you've +[5575.760 --> 5580.320] shifted your thoughts and your principles and ideas over time. I think a writing practice is so, +[5580.320 --> 5587.840] so, so important. I think of it in terms of reflecting as well, right? So, mental reflection, +[5587.840 --> 5592.000] I tend to just keep going over the same things a lot. But when I write it down, it's like, that +[5592.000 --> 5596.480] doesn't make sense. You're checking your own thinking in a way, right? Because now you're, +[5596.560 --> 5600.160] and I prefer pen and pencil, even if I like shred it or burn it after. +[5601.920 --> 5606.080] But you're checking your own thinking. And it's the process by which I discover I don't know what +[5606.080 --> 5610.640] I'm talking about. But it's also the process by which I know where to look for more information, +[5610.640 --> 5616.000] where to go about it and learn what I'm talking about in a way that I can convey clearly to other +[5616.000 --> 5621.200] people. But it's also how I get new ideas. And importantly, how I give up ideas, +[5621.760 --> 5627.200] which I don't think we do a lot of these days. And so there's like an ego thing to it where it's +[5627.200 --> 5632.320] like you're practicing, that's a really good sentence. You want to keep it in, then you're like, +[5632.320 --> 5637.520] oh, I got to get rid of it. But it doesn't fit with the piece, right? But then you're giving +[5637.520 --> 5641.360] something up and you're sort of, and then you can give it to other people and get feedback. +[5641.360 --> 5646.400] Because they don't see all the thoughts that you have in your head that you see. And so, +[5646.400 --> 5650.160] like they're giving you, oh, this doesn't make sense. And now all of a sudden, it's like, oh, +[5650.160 --> 5655.360] I've got something here. Yeah. And you're talking about this makes me want to bring back this practice. +[5655.360 --> 5660.880] So I started journaling and I started to realize that because I'm such an optimist, I lie in my +[5660.880 --> 5666.800] journals. So what I started doing was I made a video journal and I sat in front of the camera +[5666.800 --> 5672.400] and I spoke to myself every day. And I have some of these videos where it's like, interesting. +[5672.400 --> 5676.880] The IRS is coming after me. Like it was like the worst business moment ever. +[5676.880 --> 5682.160] Yeah. I remember. All this crazy stuff. And I have a video of myself like being like, +[5682.160 --> 5687.360] yeah, things are okay. And I have like big dark circles under my eyes. And I look like, +[5687.360 --> 5691.040] oh, you poor kid, things are not okay right now. Well, because you have a different perspective. +[5691.040 --> 5697.200] Exactly. Exactly. But also, if I would have watched even that video after I recorded it, +[5697.200 --> 5701.280] I probably would have seen that things are not so okay with your analysis. Of course. +[5701.280 --> 5706.240] You've been like the best kid. So I think it's a helpful one. But that optimism can be helpful, +[5706.240 --> 5710.800] right? Which is I get through it as an entrepreneur. I mean, tell you push through, right? +[5710.800 --> 5718.160] It's like how Elon saved Tesla effectively. It wasn't sane. But I'll, yeah. I won't say a lie, +[5718.160 --> 5725.360] but you know, close to a lie and save the company through that lie, raise money. And now we have +[5725.360 --> 5730.240] this, but had that not happened, whether he was deceiving himself or deceiving other people or +[5730.240 --> 5735.760] didn't even know he was deceiving himself or deceiving other people objectively speaking. +[5735.760 --> 5742.480] It was sort of fiction that saved the company. So then do the ends justify the means? Do the, +[5742.480 --> 5748.720] I mean, I think so. As an entrepreneur, like, there's, there's like true belief in being able to +[5748.720 --> 5753.200] create something. And you're not necessarily knowing what the path looks like. But you're going to +[5753.200 --> 5759.840] create something, right? And then there's just flat out, like lies. Like, and then lying is, +[5759.840 --> 5764.880] I think a lot different, like intent is a lot of it of a different thing. But you know, a lot of +[5764.880 --> 5770.720] people, a lot of maybe they started off with, was that the road to hell is pay with good intentions? +[5770.720 --> 5775.520] I think that's what happens. I think people try to protect, right? They lose their values and then +[5776.480 --> 5781.680] there's somewhere else. But yeah, I mean, everybody does it. Like everybody, any, any VC pitch I've seen. +[5781.840 --> 5787.200] Come on. It's like, it's a hockey stick right after this month, right? Exactly. It's like, all right. +[5787.200 --> 5793.200] I know our users are redefining what active users is. Yeah. But they're growing up. Like, it's like, +[5793.200 --> 5800.480] come on, we all know the game. Yeah. The question we always end with is what is success for you? +[5800.480 --> 5805.040] Success for me is pretty simple. You write things down and you accomplish it. That's success. I +[5805.040 --> 5811.440] believe success is a personal journey in whatever you want to do. So some people don't actually +[5811.440 --> 5816.320] know what their version of success is and it just happens to them. So I think it's really helpful +[5816.320 --> 5820.960] to sit there and be like, you know, I want a relationship where there's no friction and I have +[5820.960 --> 5825.520] the love of my life and like, I texted my wife. I was like, I miss you already. And we were gone +[5825.520 --> 5830.240] for like eight hours and it was like, that's on the list. So I have a successful relationship. +[5830.240 --> 5834.400] The business right now is not necessarily certain things that need to get changed this year. +[5834.400 --> 5838.640] There's certain things that need to change. That can be listed and I can measure if I'm successful +[5838.640 --> 5843.680] or not. Because the truth is, if you don't do that, you're likely playing somebody else's game. +[5843.680 --> 5848.400] Yeah. And it's just so it's so hard to live that life. Well, thank you for taking the time +[5848.400 --> 5851.280] for this incredible conversation. This is a great, great question.