topic
stringlengths 3
378
| content
listlengths 0
977
| date
stringlengths 11
18
| url
stringlengths 102
104
|
|---|---|---|---|
TORONTO ISLAND AIRPORT
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"The minister said in his statement yesterday, and I quote:",
"The fact that this ministry agreed to chair this committee should not be misconstrued as meaning that it has the prime responsibility or role, but rather it has simply accepted the job as co-ordinator. This is not a provincial committee; the province is only co-ordinating the efforts of those involved.",
"In view of this, will the minister please explain the statement in the first paragraph of the draft report on the Toronto Island Airport, and I quote:",
"Increasing deficits incurred by the harbour commission, coupled with the desire by the Province of Ontario to preserve the airport as the hub of a southern Ontario third-level air network, has forced a reassessment of the potential of this unique waterfront airport, located within a mile and a quarter of the Toronto CBD.",
"That is the paragraph in the report. Is it correct, that in fact this is a ministerial responsibility and a government decision? Further, has the minister had a chance as yet to see the report; because if not I will be glad to send him a copy?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, yes, I have seen the report. I think it has been obvious, and has never been denied I don’t believe, that there has been an interest in the Ministry of Transportation and Communications in the development of third-level air carrier service in the southern Ontario area. I answered a question on this yesterday by the hon. member for St. George (Mrs. Campbell). I think, of course, that the Toronto Island Airport was the one that was being looked at by the ministry, as it now exists, as a possible STOL site. There has been no decision made; but certainly the fact that we were interested in that airport is correct. And I draw to the member’s attention that there is no question of a second airport."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Riverdale."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"By way of supplementary question: Does the minister agree with the lead editorial in the Globe and Mail this morning?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I very rarely agree with the lead editorial in the Globe and Mail -- but I didn’t read it this morning."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"If he had he wouldn’t have agreed with it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Kitchener."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"I would be glad to send the minister a copy of the editorial, if he would like to have it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Get someone there to read it to him. Send it over now."
]
}
] |
May 31, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-31/hansard
|
STEEL MILL ON NOTTAWASAGA RIVER
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"A question of the Minister of the Environment: I first asked him on March 14, some 11 weeks ago, whether any environmental impact studies had been completed on the $25 million steel mill which was proposed on the banks of the Nottawasaga River in Essa township. Has he as yet completed those studies; and if so when will we receive them?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"Yes, Mr. Speaker, I think as I indicated at that time we would be doing this; and we have done extensive studies on that particular area."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Is the minister prepared to table those studies in the House?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"Not at this point in time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"When will he be?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Some hon. members",
"text": [
"In the fullness of time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"Reasonably soon."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Kitchener."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Question of the Provincial Secretary for Social Development (Mrs. Birch), with respect to --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Ah, there she is. She should have stayed away."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"I think she is the minister we can talk to on housing when the Minister of Housing (Mr. Handleman) is not here; is that correct?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. S. Lewis (Scarborough West)",
"text": [
"Housing? That is not within her secretariat."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Not within her secretariat! Oh, I will pass then for the moment until the Minister of Housing comes in."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The member for Kitchener has no more questions for the Liberal Party?",
"The hon. member for Scarborough West."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, there is nobody here."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"The Attorney General (Mr. Welch); the Solicitor General (Mr. Kerr) --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Oh, there is somebody here; the Minister of Energy (Mr. McKeough) is here."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"And the House leader (Mr. Winkler) is here."
]
}
] |
May 31, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-31/hansard
|
WATTS FROM WASTE PROJECT
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"I am going to come to the Minister of Energy in a moment, but may I first ask the Minister of the Environment about this solid waste task force of his? When is he going to table the report on disposables which was promised for, I guess June 1, 1973? Since tomorrow will be the anniversary of when the report was to be tabled, when will that aspect of the task force report emerge?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"As I believe I said in the House before, the solid waste task force report is in my hands and we are still doing some very intensive study on it. I would hope we would table it fairly soon."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Is that intensive study as distinct from extensive study?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"Intensive"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Intensive on this topic and extensive on the other topic?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Can I remind the minister that this task force was appointed on Nov. 3, 1972, with the report due in June, 1973? The dimension dealing with returnables or non-returnables was appointed in January, 1973, to report in June 1973. It is now a year later. It has been on the minister’s desk for at least two months; when is he going to table the report in the House?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"The full report has not been on my desk for any more than about six weeks."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"I stand corrected. It has been on his bloody desk for six weeks; when is he going to table it in the House?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"The solid waste task report has been there. All the statistical data which came with it is voluminous and we are still studying it very intensively."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The minister is incompetent."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"Thank you."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"We would absorb it in three days."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"Would they?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Yes. Why is he suppressing it? Why will he not release that report?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"The member wouldn’t know a thing when he was finished. He wouldn’t know how to read it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Why won’t the minister release that report to the House?",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"He’s a meandering idiot."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"What is it that he is hiding?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"Not a thing."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"The minister should tell them he can’t read."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for York Centre."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Six weeks to read a report that is a year late?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. A. Grossman (Provincial Secretary for Resources Development)",
"text": [
"Besides, the NDP would make decisions after absorbing it for three minutes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I assume that the hon. member --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"We would make them before we had the report."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"We don’t need the report to make a decision on non-returnable bottles."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. D. M. Deacon (York Centre)",
"text": [
"A supplementary, Mr. Speaker: In view of the fact that the crisis in garbage in the Metro area has been well known for the last four years and in view of the fact there has been well established precedent and practice in other parts of the world, particularly in Europe, for dealing with garbage, why would it take so long for this ministry and its task force to deal with this matter?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"The task force report, as I said, arrived on my desk some six weeks ago --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"But he has had a year --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"We are studying it. We are doing some very intensive study on the report and on this whole matter of the beverage container industry."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Keep on stalling."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Just what day was it put on his desk?"
]
}
] |
May 31, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-31/hansard
|
GASOLINE PRICES
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"I have a question of the Minister of Energy. What would the minister’s response be, attitude be, what action would he take --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"No. It’s a hypothetical question; don’t let the minister answer that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"I don’t think so.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"He won’t get a hypothetical answer, I can tell the member that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Perhaps the member will rephrase it so that it is not hypothetical?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"This aberration on my left, Mr. Speaker --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Now we know why the member is always here for questions."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Take that off Hansard, will you?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"If we won’t the member will."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"I will begin again. What would the minister do, now, that I am informing him not by means of hypothesis but by means of fact, were he to learn that the 45-day period which the Premiers and Prime Minister and the Ministers of Energy accepted as the period required for depletion of existing stocks by the oil companies, was a deliberate and calculated underestimate on their part and that they have reserves available for a period of between 84 and 100 days, based on National Energy Board figures, based on Statistics Canada figures and based on Interprovincial Pipeline figures? At what point, as Minister of Energy, would he intervene, having that kind of information?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. D. McKeough (Minister of Energy)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, while I am on my feet, I might draw to your attention that in the gallery there are 80 students --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. D. C. MacDonald (York South)",
"text": [
"That is what one calls defusing the issue."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"-- from grade 7 of McNaughton Avenue public school in Chatham. I knew you would want to know that, sir."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"It is known as a pause for reflection."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Now that the minister has gathered his thoughts."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, my reaction, I think, would be threefold. First of all I would agree with the hon. member for Riverdale that the question is hypothetical.",
"Interjection by an hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"Second, I would want to consider the words of the leader of the New Democratic Party with a great deal of scepticism, because I’ve learned that in the past."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Some hon. members",
"text": [
"Shame, shame."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"What about the minister’s scepticism about the oil companies and their self-serving statistics?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"Third, I would want to ponder on this and think about it before I replied."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Those comments are out of order -- rule 27(b)."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"By way of supplementary, since a careful assessment of all those sources, something that his ministry has not taken, shows that the oil companies in Ontario had an additional 19,361,000 bbl in inventory, over and above what was used for the 45-day period. And since they were receiving $2.70 more for each of those barrels, based on the new price, when in fact they had been purchased on the old price; and since that has given them a windfall gain, uncalculated by this government, of a minimum of $52 million, over and above all of the additional price increases at the pump, is the minister prepared to intervene and take back that money by way of tax?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"I remain sceptical, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"By way of supplementary, Mr. Speaker, since in fact the minister was wrong on the understanding that flowed from the conference in March about the cost at the pump, and there was serious misunderstanding about the value at the wellhead, will he now launch an inquiry into the extent of inventory which the oil companies had in order to take back the additional windfall profits that they’ve made and use that money to offset the increases that have occurred for the consumers of Ontario?",
"Will the minister not concede that this is yet another aspect of the oil situation which he never even contemplated investigating and on which he simply accepted the word of the oil companies?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the answer is no, at this moment. Certainly we have been wrong from time to time. We will continue to be wrong from time to time --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"They sure have been -- and on this one."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"-- but I would say this, we on this side of the House aren’t nearly as wrong as my New Democratic friend, who is consistently wrong."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Come on, the government has been dead wrong all the time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"I’m going to leave it at that, Mr. Speaker, but I’m distributing the figures and I hope the minister will assess them carefully. I assume he will."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I await them with breathless anticipation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Well, he should. It’s another $52 million ripoff of Ontario consumers which the minister refuses to protect them from!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, we might well ask, how much of that goes into Saskatchewan, that socialist haven out there?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Nothing."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. Cassidy (Ottawa Centre)",
"text": [
"Nothing."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Not a penny, because every penny of it is taken by way of royalties!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"Oh, come on! They’re the biggest ripoff artists in the country."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"They pay no royalties in Ontario. It all goes into the coffers of the oil companies. That’s the difference."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"It’s the socialists’ ripoff.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
}
] |
May 31, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-31/hansard
|
PRICE INCREASES BY CHRYSLER CANADA LTD.
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"A question of the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations: Now that Chrysler has indicated a need to raise its prices yet another $35 per automobile, allegedly because of the increase in steel prices, will the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations require Chrysler to explain to him in detail, either in person or in writing, what it is that has justified these price increases, and to set it out so that we in the House can see the economic cause-and-effect relationship?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. J. T. Clement (Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, as I recall, some perhaps two weeks ago the same hon. member asked a similar question; and as I recollect, sir, I wrote to --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"That was about Ford."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"It was Ford, I’m sorry; quite correct. If my memory serves me correctly, I wrote to Ford within a few days thereafter and, to my best recollection, have not received a response as of this date. I have no hesitation in writing them. Again, I can’t anticipate what the response will be, but I will be more than pleased to write to them if that will serve the purpose."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"By way of supplementary, I take it in this --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"Is the member thinking of buying one?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"No."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"We suggest the minister communicate by telegram."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. E. M. Havrot (Timiskaming)",
"text": [
"They buy foreign cars, not Canadian-made cars."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The government offered a Chrysler but I turned it down as it happened."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"What did the member get?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"A Cadillac."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The minister won’t speak for him I know, but from what the Premier (Mr. Davis) said in the House the other day, will the minister also table this correspondence as it is undertaken by the government?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"First, I will speak for the Premier. I saw him a day or two ago and he asked me to express his best to the member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"How is he? Is he well?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"The minister probably saw him the same time as we did."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"Second, I will consider tabling it. I won’t undertake that right now."
]
}
] |
May 31, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-31/hansard
|
STUDY ON FOOD COMPANY PROFITABILITY
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"All right; I have one last question of the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations.",
"Now that Dominion Stores has experienced a 36 per cent increase in profit in the 52-week period ending March 31, 1974, and they are indicating this was a significant increase in profit for them but saying that any excess profit occurred further down the line, will the minister ask Dominion Stores to document for him the profits taken at the middleman position as they indicated in their statement to the annual meeting of share- holders?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, as I indicated some weeks ago, my staff will be doing a second part to the food study review. I presume that information, or a substantial portion of it, would be contained in my staff’s comments in that second portion.",
"I have written to them, and as a matter of fact I have had some correspondence back from many of them."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"By way of supplementary, that report was scheduled for the third week in June. Can the minister guarantee to have that report available to the House before we adjourn if the adjournment date is, let us say roughly around June 20 or June 25?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"Is that when we are finishing?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Well that is the scuttlebutt, but I am using it hypothetically."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"I can use all the help I can get, Mr. Speaker. I want to plan a little holiday and it gives me some direction in any event.",
"No, I won’t guarantee it, but I will do this: Should the House rise and that report be available on that date, or if the report is available some days after the House has risen, I will file a copy of it in the Clerk’s office so that it is available to the members of the House. Should any of the members of the House require copies I will be more than pleased to supply them if they are available. If the report is ready on that date, yes I will certainly table it in the House."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Thank you."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Does the hon. member for Scarborough West have further questions?"
]
}
] |
May 31, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-31/hansard
|
ALLEGED BLACK MARKET IN DRIVERS’ LICENCES
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The Attorney General is here. He is so seldom here, I would like to ask him a question.",
"May I ask the Attorney General what has he done with the request from Action Line of the Windsor Star to investigate a possible black market trade in drivers’ licences in the Province of Ontario, which they documented for him some weeks ago and in response to which they have not yet heard anything?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. R. Welch (Provincial Secretary for Justice and Attorney General)",
"text": [
"The investigation is being carried on, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"I didn’t hear that, it was such a sotto voce response."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"Regardless of the vocabulary, if I understood the question --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"It wasn’t vocabulary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"-- it was: what was I doing with respect to the request for the investigation. The answer was “investigating.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Was?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Is."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"If I understand it, the allegations which were made were fairly significant. Does the minister not think he should be making some report rather sooner on matters which may conceivably have involved false imprisonment or mistaken imprisonment because of mistakes in drivers’ licences, which are apparently reproduced and provided to some person other than the owner? Is this not something on which the minister should be reporting publicly rather than taking all this time? The file went to him initially in April."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Which year?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"April 5, 1974."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"When the investigation is complete, Mr. Speaker, I will be very happy to make a report."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Downsview."
]
}
] |
May 31, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-31/hansard
|
POLICE RAID ON HOTEL
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Solicitor General. Could the Solicitor General elaborate at all on the extent and kind of investigation that is going to be conducted into the affairs of the Niagara district police because of their raid on the Landmark hotel?",
"Is the inquiry going to be a public one? Which section of the Police Act is it going to be conducted under? Is it going to be conducted solely by the Ontario Police Commission? And would the Solicitor General tell us if he has issued any temporary guidelines or instructions to police in Ontario as to how they should behave in connection with search and seizure procedures, whether they move under the Narcotics Control Act or under any other Act?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. G. A. Kerr (Solicitor General)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, as I said yesterday in reply to questions from the hon. members, we are considering two sections, section 56 and section 57 of the Police Act. Section 56, as I indicated, makes it possible to hold an inquiry under the Public Inquiry Act, to subpoena witnesses and to hold public hearings. As I indicated yesterday, I felt that this section would be adequate in view of the type of inquiry that would be held here. We’re not dealing with an across-the-province type of inquiry. We’re not inquiring into organized crime or the drug trafficking trade in Ontario --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"That’s the whole problem."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"It affects the whole province and the Solicitor General knows it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"-- we’re dealing with a specific incident that took place in Fort Erie and that’s where we want to get the information."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Yes, that seems to be where it happened."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"Certainly, as I indicated subsequent to the question period yesterday, public hearings will be held. I don’t think there’s any real restrictions or inhibitions in that section.",
"For example, if we use section 57 with the royal commission procedure and the appointments that are necessary and the structure that is necessary under that section, we’re talking about a year or 18 months before we’ll have any kind of a report."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"We are not."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"No we’re not; that’s ridiculous."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"This is what happens with royal commissions. The members know that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"That’s ridiculous and the minister knows it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"That’s absurd."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"I want a report within three or four months."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"By way of supplementary -- is the Solicitor General through?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"On the other part of the member’s question: I’ve certainly been discussing these events with the chairman of the Ontario Police Commission since the statement yesterday. He is proceeding now to seek out a counsel who would act for this investigation, somebody we hope would be outside the government --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Outside the Conservative Party?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"-- and to proceed to set out the guidelines for an inquiry, the type of subpoenas and the number of subpoenas that would be required; for example whether we would subpoena people from New York State, and this sort of thing."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Why would New York State have to participate in the inquiry?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"Certainly all that has been discussed. We want to discuss it further with the Premier who is away today."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Oh come on."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"He was away yesterday and the day before."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. C. Germa (Sudbury)",
"text": [
"How is he doing?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"That will be discussed further with him as well. The machinery is in motion. It will be a few days before final decisions are made."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"He threw the ball to Stanfield who couldn’t catch."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"By way of a supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Would the minister not agree with me that Elmer Bell has really disqualified himself from any ability to conduct this hearing --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Oh, of course."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"-- because immediately after the news was published in the Toronto papers he said he could see no reason to investigate? Should the minister not seek someone else to conduct the investigation?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"That’s right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"It’s a total conflict of interest."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, as I indicated yesterday, Mr. Bell was misquoted."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"He didn’t say he was misquoted."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"Mr. Bell told the reporter: “There won’t be an inquiry until I have a report.” That is what he said."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"He didn’t say that. He said there would be no inquiry."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"He didn’t indicate that under no circumstances would there be an inquiry. Why doesn’t the member ask Mr. Bell what he said? He’ll tell the member that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"He didn’t say he was misquoted."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"He’s got a conflict of interest; that’s why."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, by way of a supplementary question: Was the director of the raid a member of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police or the regional Niagara police? Who was in charge of that raid?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, it was a joint operation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Who was in charge that night?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"The Niagara region police were in charge that night."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"They walked in together, all 50 of them. 50 chiefs and no Indians."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary of the Solicitor General. In view of his comments two days ago that he would approve similar raids, would he state whether he is prepared to approve similar raids in the light of his investigation or whether he is prepared to advise the police to not conduct any further raids until this inquiry is over?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, what I said was that raids of this kind, which are carried out quite frequently, particularly in this area, are something that I don’t object to."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Raids of this kind?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"What does the minister mean, raids of this kind?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"What I certainly didn’t say was that I condoned the type of activity that went on inside the Landmark hotel."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Doesn’t the minister think --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"Until I had that report and full information, because everything was assumption at that point -- the degree of the search, for example -- I had indicated that I wouldn’t condone the type of intimate physical search that went on --",
"Interjection by an hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"-- but certainly as regards raids on premises where drug activity is suspected, they are something that is quite common and that I certainly wouldn’t prohibit."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"That’s right. But --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Yes. But probably --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for High Park."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"I have a question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Oh. Supplementary?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"If I might just ask one further supplementary --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"A supplementary; the hon. member for Parkdale."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. Dukszta (Parkdale)",
"text": [
"Is the minister aware that during the physical examinations of the women conducted by the police officers, only wooden spatulas were used and no gloves, which constitutes a major hazard to the health of the women because of cross-infection by the examiners?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"I am sorry. I couldn’t hear the hon. member. Could he turn his microphone?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Dukszta",
"text": [
"During the examinations conducted by the police officers at the raid, no gloves were used during the vaginal examinations."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"As I said yesterday, Mr. Speaker, my information is that the women were not touched by the policewomen."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"That is not so."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"There seems to be a little conflict there. The information that the minister has must be wrong."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Supplementary --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Kitchener."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary: Following what we have at least heard with respect to the rather crude procedures involved in this whole situation, does the minister not agree this is a matter of greater public importance than just the fact of the raid and the persons who have been involved in Fort Erie? As a result, does he not think that an investigation should be promptly attended to, publicly, rather than waiting again weeks and weeks for apparently more reports and more information?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"And not by the Ontario Police Commission."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"No, Mr. Speaker. This is one of the reasons why I am now favouring section 56. We can work much more quickly under that section than setting up the structure of section 57 --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"No, section 57 is the right one, and the minister knows it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"-- where we require a chairman, probably a judge, and all the paraphernalia of a formal royal commission."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"What paraphernalia?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"We don’t need all the paraphernalia."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"By using section 56 we can get some information more quickly."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Only in secret, and the minister knows it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"I agree that there should be public hearings. There certainly should be public hearings --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"The whole thing has to be done in public.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"-- and there can be under section 56. I don’t want to wait, as I said before, for a year or a year and a half for a report."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The minister is retreating again. He is changing his position again."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Havrot",
"text": [
"Ah, go on!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"I would ask the hon. members to think of one royal commission that took less than a year to conduct an inquiry --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Yes, the Leiner one!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"They have all been conducted by the minister’s government. The member for High Park’s didn’t take a year.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"What about the member for High Park’s investigation?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"There have been five supplementaries now."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"This is not a supplementary. It’s a point of information --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"There have been five supplementaries. The hon. member may convey the information privately to the minister."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Dalton Wells investigated the Leiner case in a matter of months."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"What about the member for High Park’s investigation?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"It was a whitewash."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"That constitutes an attack on the judiciary. The member is attacking the judiciary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"Let’s have a “Shulman” investigation right now."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Another one?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"It completely exonerated him.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for High Park."
]
}
] |
May 31, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-31/hansard
|
NURSING STAFF SHORTAGE
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"A question of the Provincial Secretary for Social Development: Would the minister agree with me that the policies of her department have resulted in a province-wide shortage of nursing staff?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Birch (Provincial Secretary for Social Development)",
"text": [
"No, Mr. Speaker, I would not agree with the member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"A supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Can the minister then explain this letter which has been sent out from the Toronto Western Hospital to all its staff, which reads as follows: “The impending closure of beds is in large part due to a lack of nursing staff. This shortage of nurses is province-wide.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mrs. Birch",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I don’t know how the member can fault the social policy field for that condition."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Is the minister not responsible for health policy?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mrs. Birch",
"text": [
"Yes, Mr. Speaker, we are."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"As a further supplementary, if the minister is responsible for policy -- let me make it a little more simple -- what policy is she developing to alleviate the province-wide shortage of nursing staff?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mrs. Birch",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, that is under consideration in the policy field."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for St. George is next."
]
}
] |
May 31, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-31/hansard
|
ALLEGED FALSIFICATION OF MATERIAL
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mrs. M. Campbell (St. George)",
"text": [
"My question is of the Attorney General: Now that the Attorney General knows, or ought to know, there has apparently been a deliberate falsification of material from a government committee, will he investigate this situation with a view to laying criminal charges and will he report back to this House before we rise at the end of this session?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, certainly the Attorney General will conduct the investigation or the review to which the hon. member makes reference. The amount of time that may require would preclude me from making any commitment as to when I would be prepared to report, but I certainly will take the matter under investigation and I assure the hon. member that we will do it as quickly as possible."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Hamilton Mountain."
]
}
] |
May 31, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-31/hansard
|
HOVERCRAFT SERVICE
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. R. Smith (Hamilton Mountain)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Transportation and Communications.",
"What is the ministry prepared to do to inaugurate and support a GO hovercraft service between Hamilton and Toronto now that interests have declared there should be a Toronto-Niagara-on-the-Lake hovercraft service instituted this summer?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, to assure the hon. members that this is not a planted question, did he say STOL at the beginning?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. R. Smith",
"text": [
"A GO hovercraft programme, similar to the GO train programme."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"GO hover? Really catchy name."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I can say that the ministry to the best of my knowledge, hasn’t been considering such a thing. We are very interested at this time in expanding and developing new areas for our dial-a-bus service."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"GO hovercraft?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"A supplementary question: Why doesn’t the minister first of all provide some sort of reasonable rail transportation from Hamilton to Toronto before he gets into this ridiculous programme?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I think that perhaps after July 8 we will have more input into the Ministry of Transport in Ottawa and perhaps we will get that rail service for the member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Dreamer!",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I believe it is the turn of the New Democratic Party; I will call the member for Huron-Bruce (Mr. Gaunt) next."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"We are going down."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I am sorry; the hon. member for Sandwich-Riverside."
]
}
] |
May 31, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-31/hansard
|
USE OF ETHYLENE OXIDE
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. F. A. Burr (Sandwich-Riverside)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, a question of the Minister of Agriculture and Food regarding ethylene oxide, which is often used to sterilize various foods; including flour, cocoa, dried eggs and dried fruits. Is the minister aware of the potential public health problem which has been reported recently by doctors at Columbia University in connection with the use of this toxic and potentially mutagenic substance?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. A. Stewart (Minister of Agriculture and Food)",
"text": [
"No, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An. hon member",
"text": [
"Smarten up."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Burr",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, as a supplementary: Does the Ministry of Agriculture and Food not subscribe to the Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry, a bi-monthly publication of the American Chemical Society?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Which all of us in this caucus read, every night, every page."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"It may well do, Mr. Speaker; I don’t personally subscribe."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Germa",
"text": [
"Why not?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Burr",
"text": [
"Will the minister consider consulting the current May-June issue and look into this subject?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"I will be very glad to."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Burr",
"text": [
"Thank you."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Huron-Bruce."
]
}
] |
May 31, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-31/hansard
|
TOTALIZER EQUIPMENT AT RACETRACKS
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. Gaunt (Huron-Bruce)",
"text": [
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question of the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations: What company provides the totalizers for all of the Ontario Jockey Club racetracks in Ontario which operate under the Ontario Racing Commission appointed by this government?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the parimutuel betting at all racetracks in Ontario is supervised by the federal Ministry of Agriculture. There are five totalizer companies supplying equipment to the various tracks in Ontario. I am advised that each of the five companies has a certain type of specialty in terms of size of equipment or capacity of equipment. For example, there are one or two companies which specialize in supplying totalizer equipment to the class B tracks, that is the smaller tracks.",
"The companies contract with the operator of each track for the supply of the equipment. The specifications for the equipment are laid down by the federal Ministry of Agriculture for the very reason it supervises the parimutuel betting."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Wentworth is next. A supplementary? Yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Gaunt",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, a supplementary: Could the minister inform me if one Lou Chesler is associated with any of the five companies supplying these machines to the racetracks?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I can’t give the answer to that question right now. I’m just not aware of that information."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"The answer is yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"Lou Chesler?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Gaunt",
"text": [
"Could the minister find out and report?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"Yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon member for Wentworth."
]
}
] |
May 31, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-31/hansard
|
DISCRIMINATION IN CHILDREN’S SPORTS
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question of the Provincial Secretary for Social Development. Will the provincial secretary take steps to ensure that whatever is required be done to guarantee that children involved in sports are assessed on ability rather than sex, and that any child with the ability to play ball or hockey or any other team sport be allowed to play, notwithstanding ridiculous rules that prevail at the local level, for example, keeping young females from playing baseball in the Hamilton Police minors?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"What about wrestling? Best two out of three?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Come off it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"It is good it is in Hansard. We can send it to Laura Sabia as an example of what she has to contend with."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mrs. Birch",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I am not aware that this is a widespread practice. I personally sponsor several baseball teams of girls in my own riding and I’m sure that there are many girls playing in organized sports across the province."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Is the provincial secretary discriminating against boys?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"A supplementary question; the minister obviously misunderstands. At the moment it is virtually impossible for a girl, regardless of her ability, to play baseball on a “boys” -- quote, unquote -- baseball team. In fact, I’m asking whether the minister believes that it is proper to discriminate on the basis of sex against people who have ability."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Does the provincial secretary understand it now?",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mrs. Birch",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, obviously I don’t believe that it is right to discriminate on the basis of sex."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Havrot",
"text": [
"Is that the best the member for Wentworth can bring up in the House today?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"A supplementary: Will the provincial secretary make whatever amendment is required to whatever law to ensure that it isn’t done? It was appealed in New York State and upheld.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Two years ago those people laughed at the thought of a Lieutenant Governor being a woman, or a Clerk of the Legislature."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"I wish we could get it all on the record."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order. The hon. member for Ottawa East."
]
}
] |
May 31, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-31/hansard
|
DOUBLE CHARGES BY POLICE
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"I have a question of the Solicitor General, Mr. Speaker. What possible justification is there for police forces across this province, and especially the OPP, that they are stopping people in relation to the consumption or alcohol and following a breathalyser test are laying charges under sections 234 and 236 of the Criminal Code when, as the minister knows, it’s impossible to get a conviction on both charges? What justification is there for that, apart from the fact that maybe it facilitates plea bargaining?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I don’t want it assumed that I’m familiar with those two sections the hon. member is talking about."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, by way of supplementary: As the minister probably knows section 234 of the Code is the one dealing with the consumption of alcohol resulting in an alcohol level in the blood of over 0.08. Section 236 of the Code is the section that deals with impaired driving.",
"In light of the fact that it’s impossible to get a conviction for the same occurrence on both of these sections, what justification is there for the police to lay charges under both these sections for the same occurrence?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, as the hon. member implied I think it is based to some extent in relation to plea bargaining."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"What else?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"I think also that because of the uncertainty of the charge they proceed with one or the other, depending on how the local Crown attorney feels the particular matter should be proceeded with in court."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, if I might: Is the minister not aware of the fact that if the police should, for instance, lay a charge under one of these sections and not be successful they can turn around and lay the other charge if they were not successful?",
"Is the Solicitor General saying that he favours the plea bargaining process in some way, especially on the part of the police and on the part of the Crown, in view of the many reports that have been made in this province that are critical of this process of plea bargaining, especially on the part of the police and the part of the Crown in laying excessive or duplicative charges?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I don’t necessarily agree with the procedure of plea bargaining at all."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"That’s what he just said before."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"This is something certainly that is being looked at from the point of view of the Attorney General’s department and the Law Reform Commission. There has been a great deal of criticism about plea bargaining across the board, not necessarily in respect to just those two sections. As you know, for example, Mr. Speaker, there are times when the charge of careless driving will be laid along with a charge of following too close or something like that, under the Highway Traffic Act."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"That shouldn’t be done; that’s an abuse."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"It gives options."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"This goes on quite frequently and gives options to the Crown. I don’t think the member should necessarily attach the blame to the police. I think the decision in respect of these charges --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"It’s an abuse of the process."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"-- and the question of proceeding with these charges are not really the police’s responsibility. There is the option. I’m not aware of any case in which when there has been a dismissal on one charge the police or the Crown would then proceed with the other charge. I’m not aware of that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"They can."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for High Park."
]
}
] |
May 31, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-31/hansard
|
PENSION STUDY
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"I have a question of the Chairman of Management Board, Mr. Speaker. Is it true he has received a study on pensions which he has read and studied, and instructed his staff that it is not to be released?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman of Management Board of Cabinet)",
"text": [
"That is not true."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Has the minister received a study on pensions?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"I have several studies within my operation; we are in the process now of making recommendations which we will bring to the legislative assembly."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Does the minister intend to release those studies?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"I haven’t made that determination as yet, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"He ordered his staff not to release it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"I did not order my staff not to release it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Well, I am going to prove the minister is lying again.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"The great Sherlock Holmes!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please. I don’t think the hon. member should use that expression unless he is prepared to back it up; either that or he should withdraw it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Withdraw it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Either that or he should withdraw it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"I will temporarily withdraw it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Oh, the big hero!"
]
}
] |
May 31, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-31/hansard
|
COMMUTER TICKET INTERCHANGEABILITY
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"I have a question of the Minister of Transportation and Communications. The minister will remember that on April 2 I asked him to contact the Railway Transport Committee of the federal Canadian Transport Commission with regard to co-ordinating bus and rail schedules and having interchangeable fares in the area north of Toronto served by CN and CP commuter services ordered by the Railway Transport Committee. What progress has the minister made during the past two months in achieving this important improvement in public transportation, especially in view of the urgency, now that fuel prices for motorists have increased 20 per cent and people are seeking improved ways of getting to and from work?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, as a result of the question by the hon. member, I asked the staff to look into this matter. As yet I have received no report from the contacts that have been made with the federal department."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"Supplementary: In view of the fact that the chairman of the Railway Transport Committee, at the final hearings in Toronto before the Barrie service was determined as to rates and schedules, indicated his keen interest in having an interchangeable schedules and fares, would the minister pursue that more vigorously?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the matter is being pursued. I trust the member recognizes, Mr. Speaker, that indicating keen interest on the part of the chairman doesn’t necessarily indicate any degree of speed on his part."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Ottawa Centre."
]
}
] |
May 31, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-31/hansard
|
RENT CONTROL
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"I have a question of the Attorney General, Mr. Speaker, since he is in the House for a change. Could the minister tell the House whether the government is planning any amendments to the Landlord and Tenant Act; and in particular would those amendments permit some form of rent control or rent regulation or give to tenants the right to organize in negotiations with landlords?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, no, not at this time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Is any review of the Landlord and Tenant Act planned during the current year?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"The legislation in our ministry is always being reviewed, but I was answering the specific question. We don’t plan to introduce any amendments at this session."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, would the minister indicate whether he agrees with the comments of his colleague, the Minister of Education (Mr. Wells), who said earlier this week that he favoured some form of rent control?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"The Minister of Education, if I read that report correctly, shared a personal opinion, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"What does personal mean?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The time for oral questions has now expired.",
"Petitions.",
"Presenting reports.",
"Motions.",
"Introduction of bills.",
"The member for York Centre."
]
}
] |
May 31, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-31/hansard
|
PROVINCIAL TRAILS ACT
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I am introducing again this private member’s bill regarding provincial trails in the hope that perhaps the new Provincial Secretary for Resources Development will start to do something about this. His predecessor had a seminar last year at which time the need for expanded provincial trails systems and co-ordination of them was expressed, but there seems to have been no action since the new minister took over."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"How about a GO trails system?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Are there further bills?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I would ask your indulgence once again sir. I was not able to rise in time to present a report. I wonder if I may have the permission of the House to --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"No, not this morning. We went through this yesterday."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"No, I think we were indulgent yesterday."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"We were gracious yesterday. Does the government want us to be gracious two days in a row?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"Yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Of course, I am quite prepared to seek the authority of the House to revert to reports. Do I have that agreement?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Not this week."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Of course you do."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Yes, he does."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"We do not have unanimous agreement, I regret to inform the hon. minister."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"This is frustrating the business of the province."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"I would have asked for a reconsideration, but the Speaker is very quick."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"A divided House."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman (Windsor-Walkerville)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, earlier in the morning in the east gallery were students from the Roman Catholic St. Anthony’s Secondary School of Harrow in the great riding of Essex South. I thought it would be fit and proper to bring this to the attention of the members of the House."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mrs. M. Scrivener (St. David)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, before the orders of the day I would like to draw the members’ attention to the fact that in a few minutes 35 students from Deer Park Public School will be here with their teacher, Mr. David George."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I wonder, inasmuch as there was some reconsideration on the other side, if we could revert to the item of reports. I think maybe the circumstances have changed. Am I right?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Not on a request from the House leader, never."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The Minister of Transportation and Communications asked for it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"If he had stayed in his seat we might have got it ironed out."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I certainly wouldn’t want to take advantage of the generosity of the opposite side."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Fratricidal disputes in the NDP!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"But if the leader of the New Democratic Party is able to bring unity back I would ask again for consideration to revert to reports."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Just be careful and he may get it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"I say it very kindly."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"I don’t know but it is worth --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I can only say that I did ask for the agreement of the House and I heard a dissenting voice."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Ask again."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Do I still hear a dissenting voice?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Away we go."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Is there no dissenting voice? Then we may revert."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I want you to compare the authority over here compared with the shambles over there.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Reports."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to table the annual construction programme report for 1974-1975 of the Ministry of Transportation and Communications for the information of all members --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"We’ve already got that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"-- including the one for High Park, with my sincere thanks."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"They already have it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Orders of the day."
]
}
] |
May 31, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-31/hansard
|
CITY OF TORONTO ACT
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. A. Renwick (Riverdale)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, on Bill Pr20 I want to take the attention of the assembly for about 2% minutes on the questions raised by this bill.",
"When the bill was originally introduced it contained a section 8 dealing with the authority of the city of Toronto with respect to demolition and a moratorium for which the city asked before there could be any demolition of any building, including housing, in the city of Toronto until such time as a redevelopment plan had been discussed and promulgated if that were then necessary. When this bill was before the assembly a year ago there was substantial divergence amongst the Tory members of the private bills committee dealing with the bill and a number of the members supported the city of Toronto at that time. I am speaking specifically of the member for St. David (Mrs. Scrivener); speaking specifically of the member for Don Mills (Mr. Timbrell); and the member for Scarborough Centre (Mr. Drea).",
"Now, the identical provision for practical purposes, and with some sophisticated refinements, came before the private bills committee again this year. I must say, with the greatest respect -- because I have the greatest respect for him -- the mayor of the city of Toronto fell into the trap of negotiating with the Tory government behind closed doors on the question of whether or not the city of Toronto would be granted an authority which was of urgent concern to the city of Toronto. It is of urgent concern in the riding of Riverdale, which is ward 7 and ward 8, and of urgent need in the area of ward 6 in the city. And the private bills committee went through this gyration of the parliamentary assistant to the Treasurer, indicating that, yes, the government was going to bring forward legislation within two weeks, before the end of the month -- and today is the last day of the month. The legislation is not here. The reports in the newspaper and the Treasurer (Mr. White) yesterday indicated that, “Oh yes, it will be in this week.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"That’s what he said two weeks ago."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Now, let’s not fool around. The government of Ontario is not going to introduce the kind of demolition control with the moratorium which the city of Toronto wants, regardless of the discussions which are going to take place.",
"What I am saying to the assembly, Mr. Speaker, and what I would like to have happen, is that this bill be now not read a second time. Let it be stood down until we know what the government is going to do by way of general legislation in this particular and difficult field.",
"I did not know until this morning that this bill was going to be called. I am surprised that my friend, the member for Beaches-Woodbine (Mr. Wardle) would introduce this bill for second reading this morning. It is second reading?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"It is second reading."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Yes. I am surprised that he would do it this morning in the hiatus which exists between an acquiescence in the needs of the city of Toronto and the government’s policy about this matter, which has never been before us. We have never had an opportunity to discuss it. All we know is that until two weeks ago, the government was adamantly opposed to this kind of legislation.",
"In all fairness to the city council of the city of Toronto, this bill should not be proceeded with until such time as we have had before us the general legislation dealing with this question of demolition control. It is not possible for the government of the Province of Ontario to fool around with the city of Toronto on a matter of such urgency as the demolition control provision of Bill Pr20; which is now not part of the bill because it was not reported out. It was so close.",
"And I may say, you know, we all talk to each other occasionally across the barriers to communication between Tory members and New Democratic Party members. I was satisfied that the member for Scarborough Centre was going to vote for that bill and that provision of the bill. It turned out that he didn’t vote for it. The result was that it was a 10 to nine decision in the private bills committee about this matter. Not one single Tory member supported the city of Toronto, when a year ago, on the identical provision, at least three of the Tory members supported it.",
"It’s all right occasionally for Tory unity -- I know the clerk is explaining to the Speaker now that since the provision is not in the bill, I shouldn’t be speaking about it at all. But, as usual, that’s not going to affect my decision to proceed in my comments about it.",
"I am simply saying to the Tory members for the city of Toronto in a totally non-partisan sense, they cannot defeat the city of Toronto on this issue. It is crucial to the inner core of the city.",
"It is a matter of urgent need.",
"If the government is not prepared to introduce legislation substantially the same as the legislation which the city of Toronto wants, then I am asking the assembly not to proceed with this bill today; to leave it at least open that the matter could with unanimous consent, in the ecumenical spirit that we always exhibit when unanimous consent is requested of us --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)",
"text": [
"That’s got to be the biggest joke of the week."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"-- be referred back to the private bills committee, so that the city of Toronto will have the benefit in their private legislation of something which is urgently needed.",
"The game is very nice. The end of the month isn’t here yet, but it will be at midnight tonight. We’re not going to have the legislation by the end of the month which was the commitment, as I understand it, of the government to the mayor of the city of Toronto. The press report and the statement by the Treasurer yesterday would indicate that cabinet considered the matter, but it has not yet been approved by cabinet, and that the cabinet instructed the ministry to go back and discuss it with the city of Toronto. For practical purposes I am prepared to say if a bill is introduced by this government early next week, which is the present commitment of the government -- but, of course, a new month a new commitment, a new ball game -- it will not be the kind of legislation which the city of Toronto wants.",
"I am asking my friend, the hon. member for Beaches-Woodbine, to acquiesce in a request that this bill be not now read the second time, that he would move on behalf of the city of Toronto that the bill be stood down until this question is finally settled."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. T. A. Wardle (Beaches-Woodbine)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the matter of demolition was discussed in this Legislature about one year ago, when at that time it was withdrawn from the city of Toronto bill. I spoke at that time and did suggest the city of Toronto does need some type of demolition authority. It is regrettable that within the past year no acceptable formula was worked out between the city of Toronto and the provincial government.",
"However, Mr. Speaker, this particular aspect of the city of Toronto bill was withdrawn, and the balance of the items in the city of Toronto bill was passed by the committee. We had the promise of the minister that demolition legislation would be brought forward before the end of May. We did have the statement of the minister the other day that this was quite impossible, but I understand a suggested formula was brought before the cabinet on Wednesday last. The minister mentioned also that he had been in touch with Mayor Crombie of the city of Toronto and they had discussed the matter. While it was not possible to bring this forward before the end of May, I understand the minister’s intention is to bring it forward within the next few days.",
"Therefore, Mr. Speaker, I see no reason to hold up the balance of the legislation requested by the city of Toronto while we await this. I assure you, Mr. Speaker, and the members of the House that I too am concerned about the need for demolition authority by the city of Toronto. I will be pushing the minister and will support what is brought forward. I urge the House to pass this section of the city of Toronto bill."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, if I may make a few comments in regard to this, I happened, by virtue of a motion of the House, to have the privilege of sitting on the committee on the final day of its deliberations on the city of Toronto bill. My reading of the committee was that there were more than just two Conservative members who supported a form of demolition control. Not only the hon. member for Scarborough Centre and not only the hon. member for Beaches-Woodbine, but other Conservative members recognized that there was a need for some form of demolition control for the city of Toronto. It was only because of the position put forward by the minister that they acquiesced in the defeat, in fact, of that section of the bill. Had the minister not said he would bring forward legislation, that section of the bill would have stood and would have been reported here today.",
"At the meeting I urged the committee to allow the bill to come to the House in its total form. I urged the committee not to take that section out, but rather to report the bill with the section included, in order that we could await the government legislation. And then, having had an opportunity to evaluate the worth of both pieces of legislation, we could have in this House voted to not proceed with the section dealing with demolition control in the city of Toronto.",
"I thought then, and I think now, that that would have been a much more appropriate way of dealing with that private bill. And I pointed out that if they proceeded as they finally did, and reported the bill without demolition control, there would be no opportunity for another year for the city or Toronto to get what they needed in the event that the government didn’t proceed.",
"Now, I have had government promises before; I have been on the private bills committee for something like five years. I have listened to the government talk about its intention to introduce general legislation. I have seen the government defeat other legislation using the same argument; that “we are going to bring in general legislation and, therefore, this isn’t desirable in the particular. We have to have something that affects everyone.”",
"I am genuinely concerned that the government’s proposals, when they do come in, if they come in -- and I don’t even share the view that they might come in, but if they do come in -- they won’t be adequate, and there will be no opportunity then to do anything with regard to providing the city of Toronto with much-needed protective legislation.",
"I think that my colleague’s suggestion is a very valuable and valid suggestion. The member for Beaches-Woodbine knows the other sections of the bill, if it didn’t pass until Wednesday next, wouldn’t make any great deal of difference. If this bill didn’t go through until next Tuesday evening, and didn’t receive royal assent next Tuesday evening -- or, for that matter, next Friday morning -- it wouldn’t appreciably alter anything in the city of Toronto, because there is not likely to be a crisis arise in any of the sections that have been reported.",
"What we are suggesting is, that if the commitment of the Treasurer is a firm commitment, and if the government’s intention is to follow through on the commitment of the Treasurer, then surely it makes sense that the bill not now be read as second time and that it await the proposals of the government and that they be evaluated over and against what was asked for by the city of Toronto. Then, if need be, we could, by the consent of the House, reintroduce the section that the city of Toronto originally asked for, and we could then proceed with the bill in a way which would allow them to proceed.",
"I want to ask for clarification on a point; I don’t have my rule book right in front of me, but I would like to move that the bill be not now read a second time, but be read a second time this day two weeks hence. I don’t believe that that requires notice, and I would ask the Speaker if he would be kind enough to inform me."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"There is no notice required; but I would like to have a motion for it, though."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"No notice; then I move Mr. Speaker that the --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I should like to have a written motion for it, though."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"I will do it right now if I can find a pad.",
"Mr. Deans moves that Bill Pr20 be not now read a second time, but be read a second time this day two weeks hence."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Is there any debate on the motion?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. D. M. Deacon (York Centre)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I too share the concern about putting this bill forward in such haste. When I look through the provisions that have been approved by the private bills committee, I cannot see anything in them that would indicate great urgency for the passage of this bill.",
"As everyone knows, the key issue concerning the city is related to the rehabilitation of dwellings and structures rather than their demolition, and in clause 4 of this bill there is the ability to make grants for rehabilitation. The city has had considerable success in doing this in certain areas. Not only has it added a great deal to the community, but it has meant that important housing stock of a very desirable type has been restored and improved, rather than allowed to deteriorate and be demolished.",
"I would certainly urge that the member introducing this bill support the request, because he did not indicate any urgency at any stage of this bill’s progress; in fact, the urgency is that promised general legislation should be introduced as quickly as possible.",
"It is interesting that only last night the city managed to make an agreement with the developers of St. James Town with regard to development south of St. James Town. They proceeded with that agreement because, although they didn’t entirely agree by any means with the type of development that had been agreed to, they felt that there was urgency to provide some alternatives as soon as possible and to get on with the job.",
"The city council has been most reasonable and sensible in its approach, and I think we should show them the courtesy, and our recognition of their intelligence and appreciation of how to deal with local needs, of standing this down for the two weeks as moved. In that interim we hope we shall see the general legislation that has been promised to us.",
"I therefore would indicate our support for the amendment."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Does any other member wish to speak to this motion? The hon. member for Beaches-Woodbine had spoken to the motion for second reading. The new motion is before the House; therefore he may speak a second time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Wardle",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, there are two items in this bill which are of some urgency as far as the city of Toronto is concerned, I understand. One is the matter of loans for rehabilitation of dwellings, a very important part of the city of Toronto policy at the moment. The other is the blockage of drains, which is a definite help to homeowners. In addition, there are two or three technical matters.",
"Two weeks may seem a short time, but two weeks possibly will be a very important time as far as these two items are concerned, so I ask the House to proceed with second reading, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Come on; that is so weak. Two weeks is going to make a difference?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mrs. M. Campbell (St. George)",
"text": [
"I recognize that this bill in all of its parts has a certain degree of urgency for the city of Toronto, but basically the problem is related to that part which is not reported, which is the demolition control section. I am distressed because, having been present at the committee, I am certain that that portion of the bill was not reported because of the very firm assurance given by the minister that indeed there would be general legislation within two weeks.",
"As we have come to know, two weeks has passed and we still do not have that legislation. This is in keeping with the assurances given year after year to the city of Toronto and its very real and urgent needs.",
"Because I would be fearful, frankly, that if this bill were to pass today in second reading, and we would then perhaps forget all about that commitment on demolition control, I am supporting the motion for second reading two weeks hence. I regret that has to be my reason for my support of that particular motion."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. P. D. Lawlor (Lakeshore)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, for a number of reasons -- three -- by way of extension by special permission of this House on two previous occasions, this bill was gone over with a fine tooth comb, and elaborately amended to accommodate the minister. I’m sorry he isn’t here because he is the blockage in the path of the passage of section 8 particularly.",
"All the rest of the bill went through without any too grave amendments. A number of delegations appeared including the former minister of everything, Mr. Macaulay, who appeared, in this instance, on his own hook as a private citizen. The arguments were splenetic, went to the point and we extracted, in the course of those hearings, some land of understanding from the minister, or so we thought. He reneged on it. He played with it. He circumambulated it. Whatever could be done to offset the bill and put it down was done.",
"Curiously enough, at the end when the vote came, it succeeded by a single vote. A number of Conservative members, standing on their principles and knowing the intent and needs of their own constituents, felt it mandatory on their part, and in conscience, to move rightly in this direction. The new Minister of Labour turned in the midst of the thing. His vote would have been the nine to eight vote. He reversed it using some kind of specious argumentation in the process. I felt that was unworthy of him in that particular, since he spoke rather well and somewhat vociferously, as is his wont, to the principle of this particular section defending it all along when it was attacked in the course of the hearings; except he didn’t even have the gumption to attend and forfend with respect to the arguments.",
"The whole committee room was crowded with ratepayers groups and various interested citizens. The case was well made but not well made just on this occasion; it was made on three subsequent occasions before the House and particularly last year. We went through the whole rigmarole, the very same wording. The whole song and dance was performed and the ritual acts taken. Again, the same minister, on the same occasion well over a year ago, made positive statements that he would come forward- -- in the fall session we understood -- with legislation precisely governing this demolition concept.",
"It doesn’t run counter to Tory thinking or Tory thought or the new image of the Tory party vis-à-vis land acquisitions and what one may do with one’s land. On the contrary, it is right up the party’s own alley. That’s why its own members felt it was perfectly permissible and right in line for them to vote in favour of the section as amended and the repeal provisions in the sections which were not adequate which did not give the proper redress to those who might be hurt in any way.",
"But that was substantially changed and far more accommodation was made with respect to the builders who would move into the middle of a block. John Sewell appeared with numerous photographs to show what the impact was and what was being done. A whole residential area could be destroyed by simply setting a gaping hole in the midst of the thing, demolishing the particular building in question. It lowers land values so that the sharks may move in and pick up the debris, the flotsam and jetsam, or would stay themselves and create it out of the sea.",
"All these things were magnificently and adequately handled and, at the end of the day, the minister, feeling the tenor although it was against his own personal grain, conceded and acceded to the requests of the members of the committee, including his own people, and told us he would do certain things.",
"Why on earth wouldn’t the government now at this stage move in? I’ve stated in committee and will state here in this House again that I’m not wholly satisfied that the product which will be produced by the minister at the end of the day will closely resemble what is being sought after or will be efficacious in this particular regard.",
"As a matter of fact, I have very severe doubts. If the design of the government is precisely to bring in some watered down malfunctioning piece of legislation because it has some ideological hangup as to what developers’ rights are over against the rest of the citizenry. If that’s the purpose of the thing, then they are effecting it very well this morning, because I would suspect they have removed from contention the more adequate documents over against some unknown and nebulous possible entity."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. Cassidy (Ottawa Centre)",
"text": [
"That’s right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"And now we have to wait upon them again. It’s a case again of arbitrariness, high-handedness and a touch of the dictatorial which seems to have pervaded this House of recent days, and hours. I thought that we had seen the demise to it for a while as a result of our standing firm the other night; but no, we start all over again.",
"Will they never learn? What goes on in their mentality? Have they no concept of the democratic? Do they think mere bulk and force of numbers is going to rule? Well, it can’t rule as far as we are concerned. We shall stand against it on every possible occasion when we feel coerced or afflicted. That is our democratic responsibility. That’s the way parliaments work in the western world, and the sooner a little bit of this heritage becomes evident in this particular chamber then the better it’ll be for all concerned, including that party over there. Thank you, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, perhaps the members would allow me to interrupt this debate to introduce a group from Unionville, a very fine community north and east of Toronto, which I know very well. There are 30 students with Mr. Chester from Mark II Public School."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mrs. M. Scrivener (St. David)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, may I also draw your attention the presence of students from Deer Park. My children from Deer Park Public School have arrived with their teacher Mr. David George."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. S. Lewis (Scarborough West)",
"text": [
"What does the member mean, “my children”? She means “the children.” They happen to reside, unhappily, in her riding, but they are not her children, fortunately for all of us."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"This mother image --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"“The” children."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"The member should be ashamed of himself."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Any further discussion on this motion?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"No, one learns after 11 years never to give up."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I must point out to the hon. members that in reviewing the standing orders pertaining to private bills, I do not find that the provision for this sort of motion exists in the standing orders, but at the same time I can find no prohibition."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"That’s right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Therefore, in the absence of any standing order prohibiting this procedure, I am going to accept the procedure and I am going to put the motion before the House.",
"The first question to be decided is the motion whether or not Bill Pr20 shall be now read a second time.",
"The House divided on the motion that Bill Pr20, be now read a second time, which was approved on the following vote:",
""
]
},
{
"speaker": "Clerk of the House",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the “ayes” are 47, the “nays” 18."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I declare the motion for second reading now carried.",
"Motion agreed to; second reading of the bill."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mrs. Campbell",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, before we proceed, I am rising on a point of order. I should like to know why the estimates of the Ministry of Colleges and Universities did not go on today, in view of the fact that the explanation given to the committee was that it could not proceed because the minister (Mr. Auld) was absent by reason of the serious illness of his wife. I would like an explanation, if I may?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I would think that that explanation was sufficient."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mrs. Campbell",
"text": [
"It is obvious, Mr. Speaker, that the minister is here, and I should like to have an answer as to why we didn’t proceed.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. J. R. Rhodes (Minister of Transportation and Communications)",
"text": [
"What bad taste!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Clerk of the House",
"text": [
"The 28th order, House in committee of supply."
]
}
] |
May 31, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-31/hansard
|
ESTIMATES, MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE AND FOOD
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Estimates of the Ministry of Agriculture and Food; does the hon. minister have an opening statement? The hon. minister."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. A. Stewart (Minister of Agriculture and Food)",
"text": [
"In view of the fact that it is now 12 o’clock I would suggest that the estimates of the Ministry of Agriculture and Food, which I take great pride and pleasure in presenting again for the consideration of the members of the House, should be proceeded with. I will have comments to make as we proceed with these estimates and the various matters before us for consideration.",
"In view of the fact that there has been some delay in proceeding this morning and because of certain commitments which have been made, I would defer now to the agricultural critic of the New Democratic Party who, I believe, will proceed ahead of the agricultural critic of the Liberal Party this morning. I will be pleased to hear him."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. D. C. MacDonald (York South)",
"text": [
"I would just like to explain why I applauded when the Minister of Agriculture and Food rose to introduce his estimates. Unless anybody should misinterpret that applause; it was such an achievement, to finally get these estimates on. I was applauding his arising, not necessarily what he was going to say or what he stands for by way of agriculture."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"You don’t need to spoil it. I thought you agreed."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"I know. I wanted to spoil it at the beginning so we know exactly where we stand."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"I think I know where we will be at the end, too."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)",
"text": [
"Now he wants to rise and make a statement."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I’d like to express my appreciation to the hon. member for Huron-Bruce (Mr. Gaunt). I’ll have to be frank with you; I have other commitments which will take me out of the House early next week. They are unavoidable."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. S. Lewis (Scarborough West)",
"text": [
"He’s not a scholar but a gentleman."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Therefore, if I didn’t get a chance to say a bit of a piece now, I wouldn’t have a chance at all because I’m rather certain that before I get back these will be cleaned off. I will miss some opportunity in the detailed estimates but that per- haps will wait until we get to the eve of the election next year.",
"By way of some overall comments, Mr. Chairman, I’d like to start out with the contention that the government in Ontario has no long-term policy for agriculture. Its policy is piecemeal; its record is a classic in ad hoc-ery. It reacts to crises and to needs once they become so pressing that there is no alternative but to act. It rarely anticipates those needs.",
"I would concede there is a general problem in attempting to shape an overall policy and a long-term policy for agriculture not only in the Province of Ontario but generally all across the country. Part of the difficulty stems from the fact that agriculture is an incredibly balkanized industry. For the moment I’m not referring to all of the middlemen who stand between the primary producer and the consumer. I’m focusing exclusively on the balkanized nature of the primary producer sector of the food industry. In the Province of Ontario we have some 20 marketing boards and many other groups and various lands of associations, often with conflicting interests.",
"We recall some years ago, when we were moving toward consideration of authorizing oleo-margarine in this province, that a fairly sharp conflict emerged between the traditional dairy industry and the vegetable oils industry -- another branch, in some respects, of agriculture -- which is the basis, of course, for the production of oleo-margarine.",
"We have continuing conflicts, though they often do not surface, between various kinds of meat producers -- beef and pork -- therefore there is the contention that it would be better to have an overall meat board which would be in a position to reconcile some of these conflicts. And indeed, conflicts between beef and/or pork and the poultry industry. More recently we’ve had conflicts in this country, if we lift our gaze for a moment, between western and eastern farm interests. These have been particularly sharp and particularly difficult to cope with.",
"Finally, of course, in the last two or three years an intense conflict has developed as between consumers and producers, or consumers and farmers, because of the rather unprecedented increase in consumer prices. This has aroused great public indignation, and we have it all illustrated in this government.",
"I pointed out last year, when we were discussing the estimates, the different kind of thrust -- indeed, sometimes it is almost open conflict -- between two ministers. The Minister of Agriculture and Food champions farmers when he feels free to do so -- and the cabinet is not likely going to restrict him unduly -- while his colleague, the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations (Mr. Clement), who has very little appreciation of the many aspects of agriculture, at least for a time posed as a rather vigorous and aggressive champion of consumers.",
"For those of us who had the opportunity to attend that conference that was called down at the Royal York Hotel a year or so ago, all one has to do is to read between the lines as well as what was written in the lines of the speeches given by the Minister of Agriculture and Food and the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations, to find out that there were unresolved attitudes and unresolved policies right within the government itself.",
"Coming back to farmers -- the primary producer -- I want to suggest that the only person who is in a position, not necessarily to eliminate these conflicts, but at least to reconcile them to the extent that it is possible to reconcile them within the fanning community itself, is the Minister of Agriculture and Food. And my main criticism of this minister is that he makes no real effort in that sense. He tends to be a passive Minister of Agriculture and Food. He doesn’t anticipate needs and move to cope with them before they develop into a crisis.",
"I want to be perfectly fair, because quite frankly -- and I say this even in the presence of the hon. member for Middlesex South (Mr. Eaton) -- in the ranks of the government forces over there the only man who knows anything about agriculture in any comprehensive sense is the minister. One of the problems is, who in heaven’s name are they going to get if he were ever to step out of it?",
"I am fascinated when I move across the country to discover some of the new candidates who are being blessed by the Premier (Mr. Davis) to come into the picture, and all of whom are saying locally that they are prospective ministers of agriculture. They are attempting to sort of fill this vacuum. But the minister leads a difficult life. He lives within a cabinet which basically is not interested in agriculture except for political purposes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"Oh, no."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"He lives within a cabinet which has no appreciation of the problems of agriculture --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Does the member think he is the one?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"-- because agriculture is traditionally a victim of those dominant economic interests who are the blood brothers of a Tory party, and whom this government serves day in and day out."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. E. P. Morningstar (Welland)",
"text": [
"The minister does a good job."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"And it is for that reason that I suppose the minister is maybe being a little bit wise not to rush out and be too aggressive, because if he gets too far away he will be chopped off by his own colleagues back in the cabinet. And that’s embarrassing. It’s embarrassing for him, it’s embarrassing for the government. So he takes no real initiative in attempting to reconcile these difficulties.",
"Now, let me give you one example of the kind of thing I mean. The minister is often very critical of the Liberals in Ottawa -- and particularly of the Liberal Minister of Agriculture up there, who at least has developed a public posture of being a vigorous champion of farmers."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"The member hasn’t heard me criticize him, ever."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Is that right?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"Never. Where did the member hear me criticize him?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Let that get on the record."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"What, Eugene Whelan? The minister doesn’t criticize Eugene Whelan?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"He never criticizes him?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The minister is more a captive of corporate forces than we thought."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Well, there’s really no difference."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The man is impossible. He is a disaster."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. Cassidy (Ottawa Centre)",
"text": [
"The minister made a few comments on their dairy policy."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"The problem with Eugene Whelan -- and I digress, Mr. Chairman, only for about 30 seconds, so just relax. The problem with Eugene Whelan is essentially the minister’s problem. He would like -- because it’s the nature of the guy -- to be a vigorous champion of farmers. But once again he lives within a cabinet that has no appreciation of agriculture and has no willingness to plan, in a long-term sense, for agriculture. Therefore, we have, for example, the comment of Gene Whelan the other day that we are going to have a milk shortage in this country -- in fact, so much so, that five years from now there may well be milk rationing. Coming from the minister who had just enunciated a dairy policy which has chiselled continuously, and once again now, on the price of milk, so you have a constant uproar among industrial milk producers with regard to the inadequacy of it, it has done nothing to really halt the mass exodus out of the dairy industry. Coming from him, one wonders why on one hand he is enunciating policies that aren’t coping with the situation and then, in the next breath, he is trying to warn the public that we are going to have a shortage of milk five years from now when they have to ration it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"He was warning his colleagues."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Was he?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"Because that is a problem for Ottawa but not here."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"I wonder, Mr. Chairman, what the minister was doing then when he made exactly the same kind of a comment."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Warning his colleagues."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"I have a copy of a speech here that was delivered by the minister to the Elgin-Middlesex Jersey Cattle Club at St. Thomas on March 15."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"A pretty good speech."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"A pretty good speech?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"I think so."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Who wrote that?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"I don’t know who wrote it but I know who delivered it -- at least, to whom it was credited."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"It is nice to know you read them, that is an enlightening thing."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Oh, we do."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Let me give you the exact wording, Mr. Chairman. On page 5 of the speech you said: “It is essential there be further increases in the price of milk paid to the producer.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"Right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Good?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"Right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Where in heaven’s name were you one year ago when you stood along with the Milk Commission and cut back a move of the Milk Marketing Board to increase the price 57 cents and you cut it back to 35 cents? And you were so wrong."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"You defended it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"That is not right, Mr. Chairman. On a point of order, the member sat in the Royal York Hotel --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"There is no point of order. Nothing is out of order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"-- and heard me say that the Milk Marketing Board should come back before the commission with a reapplication for an increase in milk prices, and he says that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"That was after you first capitulated.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"It is interesting that he has retreated to the point of now saying that he asked them to come back. Originally the position he was taking in this House was that they had read the formula unduly and that they had asked for more than they were entitled to. I am told by the people in the OMMB that they always lead the formula a little bit, particularly if you are in a period of rising prices, for the simple reason that you don’t want to be increasing prices every four or five weeks; it becomes upsetting to everybody concerned. The proof of the fact that they weren’t leading the formula very much -- and then you climbed on the bandwagon to save your own embarrassment by saying, come back again -- is when they got a price increase on Jan. 1, cut back by the Milk Commission with your approval from 57 cent to 35 cent, literally within five weeks the formula had caught up and passed them to the point where they had to make another application, which was heard in early March and given approval on April 1, so you had two milk increases within a three-month period.",
"This is the point I am attempting to make to the minister. If the minister is on top of the job, if the minister is doing long-term planning, he doesn’t chisel along with the Milk Commission, whatever its role. The farmers are mystified and I am mystified sometimes. He doesn’t chisel on a right to get a price increase which would have tucked them into the industry. That was the beginning of a year in which 2,100 dairy farmers went out of business in the Province of Ontario. So it is idle for the minister 12 months later to be getting up like Gene Whelan and trying to warn his colleagues -- if that is what this minister is doing, since he thinks that is what Gene Whelan was doing -- when he was the man who did have that kind of a policy one year ago.",
"This is precisely the point I make. If the Minister of Agriculture and Food can’t see the long-term interest of an aspect of the industry like milk, if he can’t see more than five weeks beyond the end of his nose, how in heaven’s name can we expect to get an agricultural policy that is going to guarantee the security of any branch of industry, whether it be dairy or any other? That is the problem. And that is one by way of one illustration of a documentation of it.",
"Now, before I go on to other aspects, Mr. Chairman, I want to briefly discuss some of the general conditions in agriculture at the moment.",
"When I tried, with the very greatest of difficulty, to find anything that might give up-to-date and authoritative figures, I was fascinated to discover in the back of the Outlook ‘74 document, which was given at the conference last fall, that there are statistics which show the income for 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973 and the forecast for 1974.",
"I want to remind the House of just how incredible is the condition of agriculture incomes traditionally -- and those incomes are a product of the kinds of policies that I am deploring, of ministers both in Ottawa and here, who have never planned, because they are not free to plan, for the long-term security of agriculture. They are the servants of those who don’t want agriculture to have long-term security. They want them to be victims.",
"They want them to be in the position that fulfils that classic comment of the late J. S. MacLean from Canada Packers, who said: “We pay the farmers as little as we can. We charge the consumers as much as the traffic will bear. That’s business.” And governments do nothing to stop those middlemen -- we will get to that in a moment -- from exploiting both the primary producer and the consumer.",
"What’s the net result, Mr. Chairman? Do you realize that in 1971, at the end of what were 20 years of almost continuous depression for agriculture -- because from 1951 on prices were generally level, costs of production were going up, and net farm incomes were dropping? In 1971, the average net farm income in the Province of Ontario was $3,570. In 1972 it had risen to $5,150. In 1973, it had risen to $7,960. In short, there had been a 125 per cent increase over that three-year period.",
"Still, in the third year, 1973, among what is alleged to be the aristocrats of the farming industry, namely dairying, we had 2,100 dairy farmers leaving, and a mass exodus from agriculture generally across the country, including the Province of Ontario. Why? Because they had no assurance by way of government policies, enunciated or implemented, that they were going to escape from the old tradition of a few years of boom and long years of bust.",
"If they need any reminder of the danger of that kind of prospect once again, they have it in terms of the drop in certain prices, for beef, pork and other things, after they have had this brief period of prosperity.",
"There is another reason why they are not so pleased, Mr. Chairman, and it’s fascinating to get this into context. The net income of the average farmer in the Province of Ontario in 1973, $7,960, happens to be approximately $600 less than the income of the average industrial worker, which was $8,600 a year."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"In short, the farmer who may have had a capital investment of anywhere from $100,000 to $150,000, and in this calculation was likely contributing his labour free, was ending up with a net income that was $600 less than the industrial worker who had perhaps nothing more than a few tools and certainly nothing more than his hands to go and work in the mill.",
"I am not complaining about what the industrial worker is getting, because with today’s cost of living he’s getting no more than he is entitled to. I just remind you just how incredible the average net income of agriculture has been down through the years. And Tory governments here and Liberal governments in Ottawa have never done anything effectively to cope with that situation.",
"The burden of my remarks is going to be to take a look at what they can and should be doing, so that we don’t slip back into that old boom-bust cycle. However, let me get into another aspect in terms of the general picture, before I move on to that. I refer to the split in the consumer dollar. Last year I put these figures on the record, and I would like to do so again and try to bring them up to date to the extent that it is possible in getting up-to-date statistics.",
"Twenty years ago, 60 cents of the consumer dollar -- what the housewife paid for food generally -- went back to the primary producer. In the last 20-year period, the consumer’s share of that has slipped from 60 cents down to 36 cents. That was the figure about 1971, at the end of that 20 years of depression, when we began to move into this period of escalating prices.",
"That was the primary producer’s gross income, his gross income before he had paid his costs of production. In other words, the income he got at the farm gate. And when you took into account his costs of production, what the farmer was left with was 11 cents of the consumer dollar. So his gross is 36 cents and his net is 11 cents of the consumer dollar.",
"I think that is rather an interesting figure when you take it in the context of another point that I want to sort of set out by way of basic statistics, so that we can look at some of its implications later. That is, that the average person in the city, the consumer, thinks of the food industry -- our biggest industry in this country -- as being the farmers.",
"The fact of the matter is that the farmers represent only 20 per cent of the food industry. Only 20 per cent. The rest of the food industry is made up of transportation, of storage, of processing, of packaging, of wholesaling, of retailing. And they are the people who are gobbling up 85 per cent of the consumer’s dollar. They are that great and growing group of middlemen who are in the marketplace and who have the power to do whatever they want, and they do it, so that the farmers at the end of the food chain, in effect, get what is left. That, I would concede, has been checked to some degree by marketing boards and by other methods, but generally speaking the farmer is still the relatively helpless victim at the end of the food chain.",
"Bear those figures in mind, because I want to come back to some of them. I think they are sort of basic for an appreciation of the position in the food marketing arena today and particularly the farmers’ position in that. I want to move on now to deal with what I describe as four or five foundation stones for a long-term agricultural policy that is comprehensive and isn’t just piecemeal, ad hoc reacting to crises as they are arising.",
"The first need, Mr. Chairman, is a stabilization plan for agriculture. I know that the minister pays lip service to this, and I know that the government in Ottawa pays lip service to it. In fact, with the prospect of an election coming, they not only paid lip service but they included the promise of a stabilization plan for agricultural products in their Throne Speech. It was interesting that their sense of priorities was such that they spent their time arguing over whether or not we should have another football team in Toronto, rather than getting into the legislation which might set up a stabilization fund. So we’re still waiting for it. It’s still out in the never-never land where those promises for the stabilization of agriculture have always rested down through the years.",
"I was interested, in attending this year’s meeting of the pork producers, to discover that they have moved rather vigorously in presenting a proposal. They wrote to the minister on March 8 and they drew attention to the fact that they were supporting some national organization, the Canadian Pork Council, for the immediate establishment of a stabilization fund, tied in with input costs, and they asked the provincial government to take some initiative on it. They made some points with regard to the stabilization plan. They said it should be a stabilization plan that would be tied to input costs of today, and not to historic input costs of the average for the last five years or the last 10 years, because those input costs of the last five or 10 years may be completely irrelevant.",
"Now, interestingly enough, since we’ve got an election on our hands -- and, again, characteristic of the piecemeal reaction approach of the government in Ottawa -- within the past week the government in Ottawa has responded with a stabilization fund. I am interested to discover, as I talk to people associated with the pork industry, that they have reacted to the whole thing with mixed feelings. It clearly is a step in the right direction but it comes up with something of a new concept on how you are going to stabilize and its inadequacies stare you in the face.",
"It is not really a stabilization plan which provides some incentive for pork producers to expand in the industry. It is a stop-loss kind of approach to keep them at least from leaving the industry. That’s about the best you can say for it.",
"What it does is to promise that $22 -- if I remember the figure --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. Gaunt (Huron-Bruce)",
"text": [
"It’s $22.50."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Yes, $22.50 will be the margin between wholesale prices and the price they will get for a hog. Presumably if any deficiency emerges because feed costs are too high or the prices the farmer gets are too low they will bridge that gap. They will assure the farmer of that.",
"That is just covering input costs in terms of feed alone. It doesn’t cover the cost of the weanling; it doesn’t cover the cost of labour; it doesn’t cover the cost of taxes; it covers none of the other costs. I can understand the perplexed reaction of the hog producers and of some other provincial governments which have publicly reacted to it. They don’t want to look a gift horse in the mouth. I presume the reaction of this government will be a mild sigh of relief that Ottawa has at least moved in some direction and has at least sort of contained the situation.",
"Surely one can’t come to any conclusion other than this is no long-term solution. This is no stabilization fund of the kind that is going to provide some real security for agriculture in the future.",
"I want to say to the minister that one of what I describe as the foundation stones for a long-term policy is that I think provincial governments have responsibility to move into this field. I frankly concede to the minister that if provincial governments move too far and begin to create too great discrepancies between provinces, you, in effect, will have your public treasury milked by products flowing in from another province. Therefore, you can’t get too far ahead but I make my point here, as I have made it so many times before: If you really want to get Ottawa to move with vigour, the most convincing way to make it move with vigour is some evidence that you have been willing to move in the field."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"What about Saskatchewan? It sure moved with vigour and Ottawa left it dangling and it is still dangling."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"I refer you to what has happened in terms of a long-term solution, not any ad hoc measure taken to cope with pork or whatever you may be referring to. Take the long-term solution brought in by the Minister of Agriculture in BC. That is the framework, the mechanism, for establishing a stabilization fund which in the first instance is going to be voluntary; any commodity group can vote itself into it.",
"They expected the first group to move into it would be the fruit producers but interestingly enough -- as far as I know; I am not up to date on the information -- they have completed their arrangements with the milk producers. They got in there ahead even of the fruit industry in the Province of British Columbia. At the moment it is going to be half paid by the farmers and half paid by the was when BC government. There is an open invitation for the federal government to come in so the cost of this will be a three-way split.",
"I am rather interested, Mr. Chairman, in why the minister feels this kind of thing can’t be done in Ontario. I am even more interested in knowing what the minister’s policy is because the only exposure I have had to what may conceivably be government policy listening to the parliamentary assistant when we shared a platform in Durham about a month or two ago and he was pouring scorn on the proposition of stabilization funds."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. G. Eaton (Middlesex South)",
"text": [
"Now, now."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"You just listen to what I have to say about what you said and if I am wrong you will have a chance later in the debate. What he was saying was that farmers don’t want to get sucked into the proposition of using some of their money now to build a fund to protect their interests in the future. It was the old argument that we operate on a free market and what it will pay now, with none of the kinds of protections for four or five years from now. I was shocked by the proposition and I will tell my hon. friend from Middlesex South there were an awful lot of hog producers at that meeting who were shocked too. They had just sent in a copy of their letter and their request for a stabilization fund and to have the so-called heir-apparent appearing at a meeting in Durham and shooting the whole concept down as being a false thing that farmers weren’t interested in --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Eaton",
"text": [
"I didn’t shoot the concept down."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"You shot the concept down as it is now being discussed at the present time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)",
"text": [
"Heir-presumptive, not heir-apparent."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. Riddell (Huron)",
"text": [
"That is not surprising."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Heir-presumptive? Heir-presumptive is another term for the most ardent preaching for a call I have seen around this Legislature for quite some time. But there is such a vacuum that if the minister were to move out I suppose he might have no difficulty in moving into the vacuum. Vacuums are filled sometimes by unexpected --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Nature abhors them."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Yes, nature abhors them."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"I will tell you over there that there isn’t any. The real vacuum is over there. There just isn’t anything there and there won’t be after the next election."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"I will tell you that that is the kind of idle prattle I’ve listened to from you and your colleagues since back in the 1950s."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"But it is so truthful and so factual."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"When I first arrived you said I was an overnight guest. I will tell you something, years after you have gone back to pasture, I will still be here. So just don’t indulge, when you feel a little bit on the defensive --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. A. Renwick (Riverdale)",
"text": [
"The member for Haldimand-Norfolk (Mr. Allan) knows what that means."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"-- in some of this political rhetoric. When the minister indulges in political rhetoric, I know that his position is weak. He fills the vacuum with the rhetoric.",
"Let me move on to the second foundation stone, Mr. Chairman, and that is that we need a stabilization plan for agriculture, which the province should be playing a part in building. In the building of that stabilization plan, we have got to accept the basic proposition that farmers are entitled to an income which will cover their cost of production plus a fair return in terms of capital and labour. That sounds so reasonable that it is almost banal; but it has never happened. We have for years in this country gone through a succession of ad hoc reactions by governments that really didn’t want to do anything fundamental or weren’t freed by the corporate sector to do anything fundamental, such as laying a floor for farm prices.",
"I remember back in the days of dear old Jimmy Gardiner, God rest his soul, who could never persuade the government in Ottawa to move until the situation had reached crisis proportions, and then of course they put a floor under prices that was far below the farmers’ cost of production. Then we moved into the concept of deficiency prices. Then we played with the concept of forward pricing that presumably was going to be geared to input costs. Then in the Province of Ontario we got all hooked for a time on the idea of incentive prices to give farmers the incentive to stay and produce, because even if we happened to have surpluses, and could solve that distribution problem, there was two-thirds of the human family in desperate need of more food.",
"The government set up its committee. I repeat what I have said before, and I have said it to the people involved, except for the one who can’t be with us or isn’t with us any more, that committee was a cop-out. It was a cop-out because it wouldn’t come to grips with the admittedly great technical problems in terms of some stabilization of farm prices on the basis of input costs that would involve federal and provincial co-operation.",
"I would like to have the minister, not up on his podium shooting darts at me -- that’s a waste of time because they usually don’t hit -- but speaking his mind on terms of what kind of a stabilization programme we should be having, and what the Province of Ontario is willing to do for that kind of stabilization programme. I repeat, it’s got to be approved and must start with a clear relationship to input costs.",
"I was fascinated a week or so ago to go to a meeting -- and, incidentally, Mr. Chairman, where in heaven’s name the Tories were I don’t know. It was a meeting called by the Federation of Agriculture down in the Nepean sports complex on the outskirts of Ottawa, in which 700 industrial milk producers came from throughout the Ottawa Valley. They were bused in from down in Glengarry and they were bused in from down in Kingston; they came across from Wolfe Island -- 700 of them, mad as blazes. They were mad at Gene Whelan and the Liberals for the inadequacy of the assistance to industrial milk. They invited people from all parties to come and speak their piece.",
"I expected to have a whole sort of a gathering of politicians there in which you wouldn’t be able to get two minutes apiece, and to my utter amazement I was the only politician there. There were no Liberals and no Tories, even in that Tory land of eastern Ontario where you had a field day against Eugene Whelan. There wasn’t a single Tory who was interested enough in the plight of the industrial milk producers to be there and speak on behalf of his party."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Shame."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"I didn’t even know it was on."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"No?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"We’ve tried and tried and tried --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"I can tell the minister that some of the people who organized the meeting used to be Tories and they did their best to get some Tory to be there. However, I just wanted to remind the minister of that little episode, because it was in the context of that that I got some rather interesting information.",
"Alex Bell, who was the eastern Ontario representative of the Ontario Milk Marketing Board, and some of the researchers, had gone out and they had studied -- I’ve forgotten the exact number of farms now -- their cost of production and they came up with the figure that the cost of production for a hundred-weight of milk was $10.85. That was documented. Indeed, if the minister is interested in the documentation I have copies of it here and I’m sure he can get it from the Federation of Agriculture office.",
"That was very interesting, because we had just had an increase in the aristocrat of the dairy industry, the fluid milk price, to $10.45. It was an interesting reminder, Mr. Chairman, that the formula by which fluid milk is priced is not an input cost formula, it is an economic formula that includes input costs and a lot of other factors, such as the consumers’ capacity to pay and a number of other things. On the basis of input costs the fluid milk producer was getting 40 cents less than he should be getting, even though he had just had a price increase. As for the industrial milk producer, he’s down about $8 and something, I’ve forgotten what it is now in terms of the inadequate subsidy that Eugene Whelan came across with.",
"We have got to develop, Mr. Chairman, the kind of thing that I hoped for -- and that’s why I was such an enthusiastic supporter of the minister’s income committee -- a committee here in Ontario, preferably in conjunction with the government in Ottawa, because ultimately the two governments must be involved -- which will develop pricing for agricultural products, which will be geared to cost of production and which will finally make agriculture a small business that will operate like a business; not exploiting their own labour and not living on their own capital, but getting the kind of return that will keep them in there and provide an incentive to stay in business. That’s the second cornerstone or foundation stone which I think we’ve got to have if we’re going to have a long-term agricultural policy.",
"The third one, Mr. Chairman, is that this government, sooner or later, has got to forsake its ideological, doctrinaire refusal to intervene in the marketplace to the point of establishing some mechanism for prices review, not only for the farmers in terms of their input cost, but also for the producers. I don’t want to rehash what we’ve discussed in this House in many other contexts, the absolute need for the Minister of Energy (Mr. McKeough) to bring in a bill which will amend the powers of the Energy Board so that it will have the authority and the power to review prices and, when it finds -- as it did, for example, in Nova Scotia -- that the price isn’t justified, the power to roll back those prices. While that’s of general interest for the gasoline consumer, let me say that there is nobody who is more interested in that than the farmers, because 30 per cent of the cost of agriculture, as calculated by some experts, is an energy cost and the farmer is really being creamed by the kind of exorbitant increase that has taken place recently in energy costs. The Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations has talked about various things that he was going to do, but he has done nothing effective as yet. The Minister of Agriculture and Food might move, but he won’t move.",
"I have here, for example, a copy of the report that was produced in the Province of Manitoba on one of the major farm input costs -- namely, fertilizer. I know that the minister found it a very revealing and, in some sense, a shocking kind of document.",
"Just let me anticipate some interjection from the minister. I’m not one to suggest that what they have found out in Manitoba necessarily applies in the Province of Ontario, nor, when Manitoba moves -- as you can bet your bottom dollar they will ultimately, and I suspect will be very soon moved -- to cope with the situation, that their action will necessarily be the kind of action that should be taken in the Province of Ontario. But nonetheless, what comes out in this report does have general application here.",
"They found that there was price manipulation. They found that there was price discrimination. They found that the company in Manitoba, which had been financed with public funds to a great extent -- a $23 million loan from the Manitoba Development Corp. and a $5 million loan from the Manitoba government -- was selling its products cheaper to its parent company in the United States than it was to the consumers of the Province of Manitoba. They tried to investigate why the parent company had violated its agreement to supply phosphate for the production in Manitoba.",
"They discovered that, in a very strange but effective and clearly organized fashion, there was a combine. This fertilizer company in Manitoba, publicly financed at least in part, was part of an arrangement in pricing that not only included the three Prairie provinces, but included a block of the states in the United States bordering on the US-Canadian border. These multinational corporations just span the border. Little wonder, when the premiers met a few weeks ago in western Canada, that the three of them agreed that they were going to set up a mechanism, which they are in the process of setting up, to review and to seek justification for the price of the two major farm inputs, namely fertilizers and farm machinery. And that includes Peter Lougheed of Alberta, because they are approaching it jointly. They have discovered enough information to know that they have got a joint programme.",
"I began to raise this issue back in early March, and immediately the minister said, “Well, we are doing something. We are holding a conference.” It was held down in the Four Seasons Hotel about March 8 or 10 or thereabouts. This was presumably this government’s answer to it. It was no answer. As I stated later in question period, what happened at that conference is something you could’ve predicted, namely they confirmed what everybody knew: that there was a shortage of fertilizer and the companies were using the shortage as an opportunity to increase prices.",
"Well, I was fascinated to read in Farm and Country, which sometimes acts as though it were a house organ of the government, but at other times can be critical --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"A very wise paper, a very perceptive paper."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Very perceptive? You mean, because it acts as a house organ for the government?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"No, not at all."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"That’s an interesting commentary on your concept of freedom of the press."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"A very perceptive paper."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"However, on this occasion this could --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"Just because they don’t espouse your philosophy --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Right. On this occasion they were very perceptive --",
"Interjection by an hon. member,"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"They were very perceptive, Mr. Chairman. They carried a front-page story in which they reported on the minister’s conference. And let me read four paragraphs:",
"Edward Thompson, a Guelph area cash cropper, fertilizer dealer and active Ontario Federation of Agriculture member, broke up the recent national fertilizer conference with his accusation that the meeting was “a whitewash.”",
"The speakers had repeatedly told the 180 delegates present that farmers everywhere will have serious problems finding enough fertilizer for at least three years. No farmer organization was asked to present a brief, or even comment on speakers’ statements. Question periods were minimal.",
"“There is no fertilizer crisis in Canada,” Thompson explained. “I sat at the meeting for a day and one half. I listened to 26 speakers, all from governments and the fertilizer industry, to justify their position.”",
"After Thompson slammed the meeting for making no real efforts to solve the fertilizer supply situation, he was supported by OFA President Gordon Hill, National Farmers Union vice-president Walter Miller, and Christian Farmers Federation President Martin Verkuyl.",
"That’s a pretty devastating analysis by a perceptive newspaper, if I may borrow the minister’s description. They certainly saw through his effort, which was a bit of political footwork that did nothing at all about the problem.",
"I come back to the point I am making: We need to have some capacity for reviewing prices, not only the prices to the consumer, whether it be energy, food prices or across the board generally for things such as automobiles, as we heard this morning. We also need to have some prices review mechanism, such as the four western provinces are now establishing, to take a look at major farm input costs, like fertilizer and farm machinery, so that you will help to build greater security for agriculture by cutting the farmer’s costs as well as by getting him a fair return in the marketplace.",
"About a month or so ago in this House, the Minister of Agriculture and Food stated that virtually all of the increased costs of food to the consumer today was going back to the farmer. You know, I could hardly believe my ears when I listened to the Minister of Agriculture and Food make that kind of a statement. He knows it isn’t true; but if he doesn’t know it isn’t true -- well, I hardly know what would be the appropriate comment.",
"Food processing profits went up by some 81 per cent in the last quarter of last year, as compared with a year ago. If I may go back to those basic statistics that I gave: 80 per cent of the food industry is not agriculture. It is crowding that space in the food chain, so to speak, between the primary producer and the consumer; and it is gobbling too much of the consumer’s dollar so that not enough is getting back to agriculture.",
"There is need for some review, some rationalization of what is going on in the food chain so that the person who does the most work, namely the farmer, will be able to get what he is entitled to get.",
"We have had studies; we had the Bratten study out in western Canada; a study with regard to the operations of the supermarkets. And Judge Bratten’s report was that there was far too much cost wastage in terms of very splendiferous surroundings, of excessive parking space, of marketing procedures, of gimmicks. And of advertising that wasn’t advertising for the normal purpose, as was pointed out by some of the studies done for your own income committee. It is to confuse the buyer and keep him confused so that he doesn’t know what relative prices are. That’s the purpose of the advertising. Thus, the supermarkets cut into a considerable percentage of the consumer dollar. And nothing is done about this. Nothing is done about it at all. I think it is time for the government to move and to move with some degree of vigor.",
"I was interested, for example, in some statistics that were presented about a year ago by the brief of the Manitoba government to the special committee on trends and food prices. They pointed out the processors’ margin over producer prices between 1961 and 1972. For example, in 1961 it had been a 22-cent margin on fresh pork loin; by 1972 it was a 39-cent margin and by Feb. of 1973 it was a 53-cent margin. That’s the kind of margin that is growing between what the producer is getting and what the processor is getting.",
"There are some other very interesting statistics to show you the kind of thing that happens to the farmer. I don’t know whether I can lay my finger on it. The price of bread, for example: The price of bread in the 20-year period from the early 1950s to early 1970, went up by some three or four times; while the price of wheat was going down. The basic product was going down. It clearly shows that the farmer wasn’t in a position in the marketplace to get that to which he was entitled. But everybody else in the marketplace was getting his cut; so that the consumer ended up by paying three or four times as much for his purchase of goods from a raw product that actually was costing no more. That’s the kind of situation that exists in the marketplace.",
"I draw to the attention of the minister an article that was carried in the early April issue of Maclean’s magazine by Walter Stewart, who I learn is doing a book on food prices which should be out this fall. I think this one chapter from that book on the operation of Safeway will be very illuminating, because he is a very perceptive and incisive writer. Let me read very briefly here:",
"What all this suggests for the consumer is that the cut-throat competition which supermarkets so anxiously tell us about is not likely in the long run to bring food prices down. In the shuffle for position among the food giants, the chief casualties are the independents. The net result of the price wars appear to be to cripple the independents and transfer the cost of the campaign against them onto everyone’s grocery bill.",
"And he quotes Prof. R. E. Olley, vice-president of the Consumers Association of Canada, who drew this moral:",
"Advertising by food chains and price wars are a sign of oligopoly, not competition. These rivalries result in self-cancelling advertising. They result in almost exclusive emphasis on very shiny, well-located retail store premises, where costs are borne by the consumer.",
"In western Canada, Safeway operates in such a ruthless and, admittedly from their standard, effective way in that they have eliminated many other supermarkets.",
"I say to the minister that they are moving into Ontario. What is the minister going to do about this whole business? Is he going to leave them dominant in the marketplace with no prices review at all so that both the consumer and farmer are going to continue to be the victims?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"Why do you get yourself carried away? What has Manitoba, where you have had this great NDP government that the member has preached about, done about Safeway? Not a blessed thing, and the member knows it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Eaton",
"text": [
"Manitoba is going into competition with credit unions!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Morningstar",
"text": [
"Answer the question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"I am glad to see the hon. member for Welland is awake; and I am glad to remind the hon. member over there --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"Why doesn’t the hon. member answer the question; it is directed to him? He can’t answer it because there is no answer."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"-- that if the credit unions aren’t serving all their needs, then the government is going to supplement the effort with something like the provincial bank which you have here but you leave withering on the vine."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"So they are going into competition with credit unions in Manitoba to put them out of business."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"If the minister wants to make political hay out of that, go on. What the minister is distracting attention from is that in the Province of Ontario, with seven or eight million people, with the major headquarters of many of the food chains --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"But not Safeway; Safeway is in western Canada."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"-- with the major manufacturers of automobiles, you have the capacity to grapple with the situation in terms of pricing and its justification, not only to meet the needs of the people of the Province of Ontario but to meet the needs of all of Canada. Moving into one of the western provinces, which represent, in the instance of Saskatchewan for example less than a million people, isn’t going to alter the picture greatly across the country."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"It is no wonder they all left when you fellows were in power out there."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Oh no, they didn’t leave, they have been coming back."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. P. D. Lawlor (Lakeshore)",
"text": [
"They left under the Liberals."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"They left under R. B. Bennett as well."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, let me move on quickly because my time is fast ending. I wanted to deal with two more of the foundation stones. One of them is the whole question of rehabilitating rural economies. I know that we have an ARDA programme in the Province of Ontario and that the ARDA programme is doing something. But it isn’t halting the exodus off the land.",
"You have all the social costs of migration and of what happens to a rural community when you have fewer farmers who have to bear the costs. These people move into the city where perhaps they have to be retrained; and where they need housing, so there is more competition for housing. They may have left houses and buildings out in the country that are falling down. They come into the city and they have got to get a new home.",
"You have social costs at both ends. There is a gradual realization that the proposition of everybody rushing into the cities is not really creating the millennium. It is not necessarily creating the style of life and the way of life that we want in Canada. As part and parcel of it, there is a second look at this whole proposition that small farms are the kind of thing that have to be eliminated. There was the Olson plan, the so-called FARM, or whatever it was called -- back about 1969 or 1970 in which they were going to spend $150 million to get rid of small farms.",
"There is a recognition by those who are more perceptive that we really need to bolster the way of life out in the rural areas and not chase the farmer off the farm into the cities. Many a farmer, for example, is in his own way a professional. He knows how to do many things. But take them out of the farm environment with their skills, some of which were acquired in the hard school of knocks and some from education and put them into the city, and those skills are wasted. I want to suggest to the minister that this government’s policy is a policy of doing painfully little, too little to cope with this fundamental problem.",
"I was interested, for example, to have sent to me a copy of a letter that the minister wrote in reply to a young farmer down in Leeds county in eastern Ontario. I know the minister will be interested in this. He was 29 years of age, grew up on a dairy farm and wanted to go into dairying. He wrote to the minister and asked if there was some potential for assistance which might make that possible; for example such as the assistance available under the Farm Start programme in Saskatchewan or the Stay Option programme in Manitoba. What was the minister’s reply, dated Feb. 7, 1974?",
"This will acknowledge your letter of Jan. 30. To my knowledge there is no financial assistance available to start either a dairy farm or any other type of farm operation. There are, of course, many people who start on a rented farm or start by making an arrangement with a farmer on a shared basis.",
"There are farmers approaching years where they would like to take it a little easier and yet don’t want to stop farming, who might welcome someone offering help as far as the labour is concerned and gradually working into the business. I personally know of some such cases. Perhaps it would be worth exploring.",
"Yours very truly,",
"William A. Stewart,",
"Minister of Agriculture and Food"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"Come on. Is that the best you can do?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"That’s really a scandalous kind of thing. And do you know what makes it ludicrous? I am now back to the earlier point I made. The minister talks with forked tongue, because in that speech in St. Thomas he made a comment:",
"Frankly I feel we are going to have to develop our own dairymen. This means we must make the industry sufficiently attractive that young people will choose it as a profession.",
"The date was March 15, five weeks after he wrote a letter sloughing off an experienced, 29-year-old young farmer."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"I was not sloughing him off at all. I was simply saying to him that those were the facts of life."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"I am sorry. If the minister wants to find some other word to describe the whole purport of that letter which, in effect was there is no help, go get hired by somebody --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"There are all kinds of fellows who are successful farmers who started out that way; right now."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, he sounds like dear old Dr. Dunlop of 15 years ago who contended that the best education was in the little red schoolhouse."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"It helps to have some security to put up."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"That was 15 years ago and you are still living in those days."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"We have passed that stage."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"Yes, sir!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"We have passed the stage where we are going to have farmers hire themselves out and work in. In some provinces, where they have the right kind of government and where there are Farm Start and Stay Option programmes, there are finances being provided by way of capital from the provincial government to bridge the gap between what is needed to start and what is ultimately available from normal sources. There are enough generous procedures for the payment of it that not only are they encouraging farmers to stay on the land but they are getting new farmers on the land. That’s what you said down in St. Thomas, that we may have to develop farmers. Why in one month do you say you are developing farmers, when five weeks before you wrote a letter and sloughed off a man who wanted to stay?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"No; that is not what I said in St. Thomas."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"What you are doing is reacting to a crisis and what I am pleading for is that you should have a long-term agricultural policy that can look one centimetre beyond the end of your nose. As the Minister of Agriculture and Food you must anticipate the problem and bring in the policies. If you have difficulty getting it through the Scrooges of Management Board or the rest of the cabinet, why don’t you come and confess it? Why don’t you confess that the Tory government can’t do it for the farmers and then maybe get out of politics? But say so when you get out of politics because it’s your obligation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. G. E. Smith (Simcoe East)",
"text": [
"The member had better clean his boots off."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Would the hon. member keep an eye on the clock, please?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Yes. Mr. Chairman, I just want to mention, in view of the time, that there was a fifth --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"You have only given us three so far."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"No I didn’t. I gave you stabilization; I gave you the whole cost of inputs related to stabilization; I have given you the question of a price review mechanism for prices in farm costs. Fourth, I have given the whole question of rebuilding your rural economics and the need for some equivalent in Ontario of the kind of Farm Start and Stay Option programmes they have in western Canada. My fifth one was for the government finally to grasp the nettle and do something about land use."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"What was the fifth?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Land use; 25 per cent of the prime agricultural land has gone out of production in the last six years -- since 1966 -- under a Tory government with no policies. It has been paved over. It has been sat on by developers. As the minister has said many times it has been taken up by city folk who want the homes and who sit, perhaps farming a little but usually not effectively, on the 95 acres out of the 100 they bought. All they need is the five for themselves and their home.",
"What is the government going to do about this? The minister has complained; he has lamented. He has made speeches every month almost regularly since last fall’s ploughing match, that something has to be done about it. But what are you going to do about it? Is your land development programme the mechanism you are going to use to buy up this land and make it available for production? Are you going to reveal this secret? What is this germ of an idea of a land development programme?",
"I queried the people in TEIGA before the budget came down as to whether it might be used for this purpose, because I’m intensely interested in it. They said it might be, it could be. I’d like the Minister of Agriculture and Food to be talking about this kind of thing --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"Well, if you are around here next week, instead of out looking after your federal counterparts, you’ll hear what I have to say."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Is that right?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"Yes, but you won’t be here. You will be running around the province trying to elect an NDP government federally, which hasn’t got a snowball’s chance --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"I have been waiting for a long time, and if you could run the business of this province --",
"Interjection by an hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Once again, the minister is doing his usual. When his position is weak, he indulges in irrelevant political rhetoric."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"Indeed, it isn’t weak!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"I’ll read what you have to say. Then I’ll take what you have to say out on to the hustings a week or so from now in the election campaign."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"And distort it out of context."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"I’ll tell them about the inadequacies of this short-term ad hoc kind of approach to agriculture."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"You’ll distort it out of context, as you have done in everything you have said this morning."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Both by this minister and his counterpart in Ottawa. They are both relatively helpless."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Order, please. We are over our allotted time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"You are right, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.",
"Hon. Mr. Winkler moves that the committee rise and report.",
"Motion agreed to.",
"The House resumed, Mr. Speaker in the chair."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the committee of the whole House begs to report progress and asks for leave to sit again.",
"Report agreed to."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, before I move the adjournment of the House, I would like to say that on Monday, if of course the reprint of Bill 25 is available to us, we will proceed with third reading of Bill 25 and third reading of Bill P20, respecting the city of Toronto; and then we will return to consideration of the estimates of the Ministry of Agriculture and Food. That procedure will be followed on through Tuesday. If perchance we should finish with the estimates of the Ministry of Agriculture and Food, we would then proceed to the bills that were announced last evening, including the routine that was announced a week ago last evening. I will announce any change on Monday evening.",
"Hon. Mr. Winkler moves the adjournment of the House.",
"Motion agreed to.",
"The House adjourned at 1:05 o’clock, p.m."
]
}
] |
May 31, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-31/hansard
|
TORONTO ISLAND AIRPORT
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, because of a series of misleading and inaccurate statements and questions which have been made, both in this House and elsewhere, I should like to advise the members of the facts as they relate to the Toronto Island Airport and the involvement of my ministry.",
"During the past 10 years, there have been a large number of reports issued on the island airport. Many of these have dealt with the question of converting the island airport into a STOL airport, while others have recommended using this location for other purposes, for example, the concept as proposed by the Toronto Harbour Commission. Some of the information contained in these reports is contradictory.",
"The responsibility for air transport rests solely with the federal government. But in March, 1972, it was agreed that the federal and this government would examine the utilization of the existing Toronto Island Airport for short takeoff and landing aircraft as this technology develops. A federal Ministry of Transport report, dated November, 1973, concludes that from a technical viewpoint STOL aircraft could operate into the island airport under instrument flight rules using the latest navigation and approach aids.",
"The Toronto Harbour Commission, which is responsible for the operation of the airport, has faced a financial deficit for some years with the accumulated deficit now being in excess of $1 million. This year it is estimated that their deficit will be approximately $300,000, and they have indicated that without financial support from the federal, and possibly the provincial government, they will have to consider closing the airport at the end of 1974.",
"Faced with this impending action and recognizing the strategic location of the island airport from a transportation point of view, the Ministry of Transportation and Communications, in order to better appreciate the recommendations which had been made over the past 10 years, and so that their implications on various levels of government and other interested groups could be identified, agreed to participate in a Toronto Island Airport committee.",
"The fact that this ministry agreed to chair this committee should not be misconstrued as meaning that it has the prime responsibility or role, but rather it has simply accepted the job of a co-ordinator. It has been stressed from the outset that this committee’s concern lies only with the assembling of various technical documents, analysing them, and through this process identifying the options available for the island airport, together with the consequences and various courses of action.",
"In March, 1974, the following agencies were invited to apoint a representative to this technical committee --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. S. Lewis (Scarborough West)",
"text": [
"By whom?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"-- the federal Ministry of Transport, provincial Ministry of Transportation and Communications, Metro Toronto, city of Toronto, Toronto Harbour Commission, Central Waterfront Planning Committee, Metro Toronto Board of Trade --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Why? Why the board of trade?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"-- and the Ontario Aviation Council.",
"From time to time, the committee received requests from special interest groups to be allowed to attend the meetings. However, the committee felt that conducting such technical investigations in a public forum would have a negative impact on the committee’s effectiveness.",
"It was agreed, however, at the third meeting of the committee that the minutes of the meetings would be made available to these interested parties. In an attempt to bring these interested groups up to date with the progress of the committee, the chairman undertook to prepare a summary of the proceedings, which has been distributed. This summary is not a direct copy of the minutes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)",
"text": [
"It certainly is not!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mrs. M. Campbell (St. George)",
"text": [
"It certainly is not!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"However, it does contain all of the essential and basic points that were discussed."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. A. Renwick (Riverdale)",
"text": [
"It does not. Every one of Ald. Heap’s points was deleted in those minutes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Who is the chairman of that committee?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"In creating this summary there was no attempt to distort the facts or mislead people as to the committee’s considerations. I shall, however, be pleased --",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order. Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"-- to recommend to the committee that it make available to the interested parties copies of the full minutes of this meeting if they so wish.",
"Since all levels of government and agencies that have a direct involvement in the island airport have been invited to sit on the committee, and further, since all interested parties are receiving a summary of the proceedings, it is difficult to understand how anyone can claim this is a secret committee. It must also be made abundantly clear --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. Cassidy (Ottawa Centre)",
"text": [
"It sure wasn’t working in public."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"-- that this is not a provincial committee, but that the province is only co-ordinating the efforts of those involved."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"The minister said it was a secret committee. He said public hearings would have a negative impact on its effectiveness."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please. Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. A. Grossman (Provincial Secretary for Resources Development)",
"text": [
"Ask those questions during the question period, on the opposition’s time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"At this point, the committee has identified five options, as follows:",
"1. Use the existing island airport for other than aviation activities.",
"2. Maintain the status quo -- training and general aviation under visual flight rules.",
"3. Develop the present site for STOL instrument flight rules commercial operations, and move training and general aviation to a mainland site as required.",
"4. Develop the present site for STOL operations and move general aviation to another waterfront site.",
"5. Locate both general aviation and STOL operations to a site at the eastern headland under instrument flight rules.",
"When options 4 and 5 were discussed by the committee, the representatives of the Toronto Harbour Commission and the Central Waterfront Planning Committee pointed out that these alternatives were beyond the terms of reference of the committee, and that any serious consideration of option 4 and 5 would require an extensive impact analysis and further detailed studies involving participation by all interested groups. This was agreed to by the committee as a proper course of action.",
"No comment was made regarding options 4 and 5 by the official representative of the City of Toronto, who has only attended for part of one meeting since the committee first met on March 18.",
"To date, neither provincial nor federal representatives on the committee have expressed a preference for any option, and the committee is still in the process of assembling all pertinent technical data related to each of the alternatives.",
"I should like to emphasize that the so-called “confidential” report referred to in the media by Ald. Dorothy Thomas, and which allegedly calls for a “general aviation” report on the eastern headland, is, in fact, a draft summary of previous reports prepared over the past 10 years as a basis for discussion by the committee at its next meeting.",
"I will not speculate as to why Ald. Thomas has chosen the approach she has, but I can assure the House that no decisions have been taken by the committee or by any level of government that I am aware of, and certainly not by this government. Indeed, a decision on an expansion of the existing airport or the building of a new airport on the Toronto Island is not one which the Ontario government can make. That decision rests solely with the federal government."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"If it is brought out in public the minister recoils."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"The committee chairman has set a target date of July 1 for completion of a report summarizing the available options, and this report will be submitted to the executive officers of those governments and agencies involved. It is hoped that the information contained therein will enable the responsible levels of government to decide on an appropriate short-term course of action in light of the immediate decisions required on the existing Toronto Island Airport. The decisions reached will undoubtedly have an important bearing on the long-term future use of the airport."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Will that report be made public?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"At such time as the report is submitted, I shall be pleased to table in the Legislature copies of all reports and studies which the committee has considered in arriving at its conclusions."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. A. J. Roy (Ottawa East)",
"text": [
"How many pages did the minister forget to read?"
]
}
] |
May 30, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-30/hansard-1
|
POLICE RAID ON HOTEL
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. G. A. Kerr (Solicitor General)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I would like to make a statement to the Legislature, as a result of a question by the hon. member for Downsview (Mr. Singer), regarding the police raid that took place on May 11 last by officers of the Niagara region.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Changing his tune, eh?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"The raid was carried out by 53 officers -- 10 RCMP officers and 43 from the Niagara force, including two policewomen.",
"In order to provide the necessary background, I should tell hon. members that in October, 1973, the mayor of Fort Erie requested police action to control drug trafficking in that community. There have been seven deaths related to drug abuse in the Niagara region in the last nine months.",
"The problems in the area were accentuated by a tightening up of narcotics laws in New York State. Addicts resorted to Canadian border towns to seek out people selling illicit drugs, particularly heroin.",
"During the winter of 1973, with the heroin problem increasing, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police launched an undercover operation. During this time the Niagara region police worked with the RCMP and a number of arrests were made in the Fort Erie area. On one occasion a check was made of people crossing the border from Buffalo and of 23 suspects examined, 95 per cent were found to be addicted to heroin and 80 per cent to have criminal records."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. V. M. Singer (Downsview)",
"text": [
"They didn’t examine everyone who came across the border, did they? Only 23?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"One of the places about which police received a great number of complaints was the Landmark hotel. Two men were arrested in the parking lot last October and subsequently convicted on possession charges.",
"Early this year police received more complaints about drug trafficking and drug abuse at the Landmark. Police intelligence reports indicated that this hotel was being used as a halfway house by traffickers who were pushing drugs to teenagers. Police officers posing as patrons discovered that drugs were being abused and trafficked openly on the premises.",
"On May 11, 1974, the Niagara police obtained a search warrant under the Narcotics Control Act for the premises of the Landmark hotel. I should mention, Mr. Speaker, that it is my understanding that this hotel charges a small admission fee and that there is apparently only one entrance through which patrons can enter the premises. I further understand that two employees have criminal records and that at least one employee has been convicted of possession of drugs."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Oh yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"During the course of the evening police officers inside the hotel were apparently recognized and a number of patrons left. One officer was told when the actual raid took place, “You fellows are too late. We knew the police were coming and one guy came around and collected most of the drugs and left before you came in.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"And they didn’t believe him."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"When police did raid the premises about 11 p.m., there were a number of men known to police as convicted or suspected drug traffickers. Included was another Fort Erie man who was facing charges of trafficking in heroin and has subsequently been convicted and is currently awaiting sentence.",
"I am informed, Mr. Speaker, that of 115 persons on the premises, 43 were stripped and searched. This included all 36 women present."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"All 36 women?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"They were searched in pairs in the washroom and with one exception were not touched or handled physically in any way. The one young lady who did object to the search was not forced to disrobe completely and was let go following a visual check."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Really?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"By a visual checker, first class!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"All the men present were searched by police but only seven, those on whom drugs were found or who were prime suspects, were forced to disrobe."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. Shulman (High Park)",
"text": [
"Why would they make the women disrobe and not the men?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"The policewomen who requested the female patrons to strip were following instructions, as this is apparently the only way in which drugs hidden on the person can be completely detected in these cases. I am advised that 10 charges were laid as a result of the raid, including four drug charges."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Four?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"What else were they looking for?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"None of the women searched was charged. Some eight nickel bags of marijuana and a small amount of drugs found on the floor were confiscated."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. W. Hodgson (York North)",
"text": [
"The hon. member was joking about it on the radio last night."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"Those on the premises at the time of the raid were all in the 18- to 30-year age bracket."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"They are the worst kind. They should all be locked up!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"It is important to note, Mr. Speaker, that the actions of the police were at all times lawful."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"That is not what Diefenbaker says."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"Section 10 of the Narcotics Control Act authorized entry of the hotel without a warrant, but the police had nevertheless obtained a warrant before conducting the raid."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"They were still wrong."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"Section 10 also authorizes the police to search any person found on the premises. I would stress that the prerequisite to entry and search is a reasonable belief on the part of the police that there is a narcotic on the premises."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"And then the people searched are visually inspected?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order. Order, please."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"From the foregoing, Mr. Speaker, you will see that there were more than sufficient grounds for such a reasonable belief in this case. I realize full well that the legality of the actions of the police is not in issue in this instance. There is general acceptance that the police acted within the law."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"So why does the minister put so much emphasis on the matter?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"That is what everybody except Diefenbaker and some other people have thought about it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"I think that from the foregoing information, it is apparent that the raid was justified. Having said that --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Come on."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Searching 36 women is justified; and not a single charge."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"What is the problem? The problem is the minister, in this case. The Solicitor General is now the problem. He sounds like the commissioner of police in Chicago; not the Solicitor General of Ontario. Not the Solicitor General of Ontario. That is his problem."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Resign right now."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"He forgets his jurisdiction. This is not the United States we are living in -- and the minister should remember that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"That is the best way for the police to lose the confidence of the public."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"Now, having said that, Mr. Speaker, I am concerned about the fact that in carrying out the raid, a decision was made to automatically search all female persons on the premises --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"He is concerned. Isn’t that nice. Tell the police to do it again, though."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"-- whether they had criminal records or were well known to the police or not. I deeply regret that statements made by me, based on preliminary reports, indicating that the raid was probably justified, have been interpreted to mean that I completely agree with the way in which patrons were searched. In fact, I must question the judgement of those who felt that all of these women should be examined in this way."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"What is the minister going to do about it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"The whole cabinet doesn’t like the press any longer."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Would the minister do the same thing again?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have two concerns. The first is with regard to the search of all female patrons. The second is whether the blanket police authority to search all persons found on the premises should be the subject of further regulation, either by legislation or by way of guidelines set down by the Ontario Police Commission. In view of these two concerns, I have directed the Ontario Police Commission to conduct an investigation under the provisions of the Police Act."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Will it be a public investigation?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"I will be placing the commission’s findings and any recommendations before the Legislature as soon as possible."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Oh sure, private investigation. Another whitewash."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please. Would the hon. minister please taka his seat? I would ask the hon. members to kindly afford the minister the courtesy of making his statement before they so rudely interrupt and attempt to create chaos in this House. There are two or three members who particularly are guilty of breaking this rule in this House and I would ask them please to co-operate. The hon. minister may complete his statement."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"As I said, Mr. Speaker, I will be placing the commission’s findings and any recommendations before the Legislature as soon as possible. It may be that a report cannot be made until the pending charges have been disposed of, but the Ontario Police Commission will in the meantime proceed with its investigation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"But in private."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"A private investigation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"What a sham!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Another closed investigation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. T. P. Reid (Rainy River)",
"text": [
"Here comes the heavyweight."
]
}
] |
May 30, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-30/hansard-1
|
REDUCTION OF PUBLIC DEBT
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. J. White (Treasurer and Minister of Economics and Intergovernmental Affairs)",
"text": [
"And now the good news. Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to inform the House today that we are now in the process of reducing the outstanding public debt of Ontario by $369 million --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. E. R. Good (Waterloo North)",
"text": [
"How much did the minister have to borrow to do it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"-- as a result of policies announced in my budget April 9."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"He is borrowing $500 million from the Canada pension fund."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"He had to borrow $1 billion to do it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"This is in addition to last year’s reduction of $225 million. The 16-month reduction on outstanding public debt, therefore, is $594 million -- which is in contrast to the increase I expect to see in the outstanding federal public debt. As a result, taking into acount the maturities scheduled for this fiscal year, the total debt held by the public will be reduced from $1,699 million on March 31, 1973, to $1,105 million."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"This is worthy of Wacky Bennett. It is worthy of Wacky Bennett. That is his kind of computation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"Now, sir --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please. Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"And the minister knows what happened to him."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"He is not going to read all that, is he?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The question period will follow."
]
}
] |
May 30, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-30/hansard-1
|
LAND PURCHASES IN HALDIMAND-NORFOLK
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, as I undertook to do on Tuesday, I am now tabling documents related to the purchase of the Townsend site in Haldimand-Norfolk. The list of options shows the average price per acre as $1,936. The figure of $1,943, which I had been using, included some legal and other costs associated with the purchase."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"Litigation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"The second document shows the out of pocket costs to the consortium associated with the assembly of the townsite, which will be seen as slightly less than $1 million -- to be precise $944,945 -- excluding certain overhead costs. The third document shows the basic details of cost to the consortium of the purchase of the three farms, and this confirms the information which I gave the House last week.",
"Interjection by an hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"Wacky Bennett, by the way, left a lot of money for the member’s friend Barrett to waste, it must be said."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I would like --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"He left a lot of money and it’s been well used, let me tell the Treasurer."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"Yes, if we could only print money like the feds."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Would you fellows please keep quiet?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)",
"text": [
"Jet airplanes and the like."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"The number of the Treasurer’s borrowings is going up."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"Wacky Bennett left hundreds of millions of dollars from his ministry. Barrett and his socialist friends are running through it just like that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mrs. Campbell",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, would you ask the minister not to interrupt the other minister when he’s trying to make a statement?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Yes, would the hon. minister please not interrupt the other minister?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Try to play nice."
]
}
] |
May 30, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-30/hansard-1
|
COMMUNICATIONS IN ONTARIO
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I would like to place before the House a document entitled “Communications in Ontario.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"The minister does it with such grace."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"He certainly is not gauche at all."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"Can we have a rerun of that?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I do hope that the --",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"I do hope that the students in the gallery recognize where all the interruption is coming from."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. A. Stewart (Minister of Agriculture and Food)",
"text": [
"Say “rude interruptions.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, this document contains the results of a major survey conducted by the Ministry of Transportation and Communications of the perceptions of a wide cross-section of Ontario residents, regarding the impact of communications on their daily lives.",
"The document interprets their attitude toward the effects of communications upon Ontario residents, as individuals and as members of family groups. It indicates what they consider desirable and undesirable. It outlines their concerns and needs with respect to present communications services and their hopes for the future.",
"As members of the House know, this government is involved with other provincial governments and with the federal government in discussions which are examining provincial needs and objectives in the field of communications. We are exploring mechanisms for a full and effective provincial role in meeting uniquely provincial needs and objectives.",
"The government of Ontario intends to ensure that the needs and views of our residents are considered as fully as possible in future communications developments. The basis of a sound and comprehensive provincial communications policy is assurance that the views of those who are most affected -- householders, business and industrial enterprises, educational institutions, municipalities, communities, government and provincial institutions -- are reflected in both provincial and national policy considerations.",
"This report is the first of a series of projected samplings of views designed to ensure that the social requirements of Ontarians are fully reflected in the development of our policies. The mechanisms of communication are vital to the individual. Communications has become a vast, complex and essentially remote enterprise. It is the domain of the specialist. Operational decisions are often made on the basis of expert viewpoint only.",
"It is not easy to find out how the ordinary person feels about existing services or what the future should provide. To help resolve the need for the participation of the individual, the Ministry of Transportation and Communications conducted the survey which gave rise to this report.",
"In eight areas of the province 72 discussion groups involving 850 participants were organized. Independent researchers conducted the group interviews. With the consent of all of the subjects, all discussions were recorded in order to provide a complete and permanent record of all survey information.",
"The report I place before you today is a breakdown of the issues and concerns which the participants expressed when asked to think about how communications affect their lives. On the basis of the study, it is apparent that people want the means of private and personal conversation safeguarded. They desire equality of opportunity to share in communications benefits and they warn against the destruction of existing communications networks which link the individual to others in his community by the imposition of new technology.",
"People are concerned about the effects of mass communications upon social values, and they indicate areas in which they think the government should be finding answers before embarking on a more-of-the-same kind of policy."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"This is breathtaking."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"The report makes pointed recommendations to those who are attempting to develop policies for government consideration. It deals with inequalities in existing services; it argues for consideration of the social impact of any new policies before advancing them for examination and possible action.",
"These views have already influenced our activities and were reflected in statements by my predecessor (Mr. Carton) to the first federal-provincial conference of communications ministers last November.",
"This is the first time the data has been made public in full. Following the tabling of this document in the Legislature, copies of “Communications in Ontario” will be distributed to groups, organizations and agencies throughout the province with the request that they respond to any of the points made by the original participants or make such reply as they see fit.",
"Over the summer all responses received will be analysed. If there are any refinements needed to present positions on the various issues raised in the report they will be made and seriously considered in the ongoing policy formulation activities of the ministry.",
"I would also welcome the comments of all of the members of this House."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"On a point of order, if I may, Mr. Speaker, prior to the question period.",
"I wonder, sir, if on a point of order you might provide some clarification for me and others in the House? As I understand it, a message came through from the Speaker’s office yesterday that the intent on the part of the natural resources committee to call a committee session to hear representations on matters affecting the health of the miners at Elliot Lake was seen to be beyond the committee’s rights since the estimates which it had been examining -- natural resources estimates -- had ended on Monday night last and the committee did not have the authority itself to call itself into session as a standing committee of the Legislature and invite such representation.",
"I wanted to ask you, Mr. Speaker, about the motion which was moved by the House leader (Mr. Winkler) on March 6 in the establishing of the committees, which said they:",
"... will inquire into all such matters and things as may be referred to them by the House, provided that all boards and commissions are hereby referred to committees No. 1 to 4 in accordance with the policy areas indicated by their titles.",
"Mr. Speaker, it was quite clear that doctors at the Workmen’s Compensation Board were the first individuals suggested by the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Bernier) to appear before the committee on this subject. I take it that it is entirely within this committee’s purview or competence to call the Workmen’s Compensation Board experts at any time on this matter since in effect, by motion, it has already been given that right.",
"The motion also says, “All standing committees shall report from time to time their observations and opinions on the matters referred to them with power to send for persons, papers and records.” I take it, therefore, that if the Workmen’s Compensation Board comes before it to discuss health matters at Elliot Lake, it is within the competence of the committee to requisition information, persons, papers and records which corroborate those submissions from the board or add to them or vary them.",
"In other words, Mr. Speaker, I am seeking from you, I hope, a change in position or a clarification of the ruling, that the committee should be allowed to proceed as it is apparently authorized to do under the standing rules of the House, and that this important matter not be frustrated."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I should say to the hon. member that I did have an inquiry directed to my office by one hon. member yesterday regarding the powers of standing committees. I suggested to him that the standing committees had the power to deal with those things referred to that committee or committees by the Legislature.",
"This also includes the right to summon any boards or commissions, which boards or commissions do report through the particular ministry which is being dealt with by that particular standing committee. In conjunction with the summoning of boards and commissions, it seems to me that they could examine the Workmen’s Compensation Board in this connection.",
"My understanding of the inquiry that came to my office was simply whether the standing committee would have the right to summon any persons and to require the production of any documents. This is as I understood it and this, of course, would not be correct. It is only the boards and commissions which report to the ministry being heard or dealt with by that committee. This is my understanding."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Further to the point of order, as I understand it there is nothing to stop the natural resources committee from getting together next Wednesday, as was its intent yesterday, we understood, and bringing before it the Workmen’s Compensation Board to discuss a matter totally within the competence of that committee."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"It would seem to me that the chairman of the particular committee has that right, yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson (Victoria-Haliburton)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, speaking to the point of order, when a committee has been assigned estimates it is not in a true sense, I don’t believe under the rules, a standing committee."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Yes, it is a standing committee."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson",
"text": [
"It’s an estimates committee under the rules of the House. That would be my understanding and I wonder that you wouldn’t consider that point."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)",
"text": [
"On the point raised by the member for Victoria-Haliburton, it says on page 19 under the heading “Supply”: “The estimates of any department or departments may be referred to a standing committee.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson",
"text": [
"No, estimates committee."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"No, a standing committee, and that committee remains a standing committee."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Yes, the standing committee has the authority to deal with those particular boards or commissions or the matters of the departments or the bills referred to that particular committee. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that a standing committee may deal with estimates. I think that clarifies the situation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I want to pursue this one stage of it. Then I have a question. I put it to you on a point of order. I don’t know how to resolve it. The committee on two separate occasions in its majority agreed to call representations relating to the health and safety of the miners at Elliot Lake. For reasons I don’t entirely understand but I have some suspicion about, the committee did not meet. It was cancelled again yesterday, when it is clearly within the competence of the committee to do as on two occasions we collectively and almost unanimously agreed to do. I’m sorry, the committee agreed. I was not on the committee. I was sitting in at the time.",
"Mr. Speaker, how is it then possible for the objects of the committee to be frustrated, for information to be suppressed and for the decisions which we had made collectively to be curtailed, because arbitrarily it is decided that the committee won’t sit when it is obviously within its competence? This is a terribly serious matter. I don’t think the",
"House rules should be abused this way to serve whatever motives may be at work."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Of course, I’m not at all aware of the circumstances which led to the complaints presented by the hon. member for Scarborough West, but it seems to me, if the committee has decided by a majority that it wants to meet, the chairman should call a meeting of that committee."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Right. How do we get that done?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I know of no reason why he could not or should not call a meeting."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"How do we get that done though?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Perhaps the hon. members would take it back to the chairman of the committee and tell the chairman of the committee that they would like to meet so that a committee meeting will be set up."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. E. W. Martel (Sudbury East)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, speaking to the point of order, there was a unanimous consent to meet yesterday at 10 a.m. The vice-chairman of the committee was advised to call that meeting and he took it upon himself not to call the meeting, contrary to the wishes of the committee."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"That’s a point of order!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"How do we now force that meeting to come about so that we can look into the serious situation at Elliot Lake?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, there is a very serious attempt being made to prevent the committee from sitting before the session adjourns, a calculated attempt to prevent us from listening to people who are knowledgeable about the questions of silicosis and cancer in Elliot Lake. I don’t understand how the rules of the House can be manipulated in this fashion when a committee has agreed to proceed in a certain way. I would ask Mr. Speaker for his own intervention."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I can only say to the hon. member that my name is not Solomon. I will investigate the matter and I will try to resolve it for the hon. members. I should have more information on it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"That’s not a bad name."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Allan Solomon Reuter."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I also rise on a point of order -- a different point of order -- dealing with the proceedings of the House. I want to put it to you in this way. The rules of the House dealing with the committee of supply indicate that estimates referred to standing committees must be referred within 30 sessional days and, further, the committee to which such estimates have been referred must report to the House within 75 sessional days from the day of presentation of the budget.",
"A sessional day is defined as meaning any day on which the House sits. I’ve been informed by the clerk that Wednesday, though the House does not officially sit on Wednesdays, is considered to be a sessional day. This means that on every Wednesday, though the House is not sitting, one of the 75 days is deducted from the estimate hearings. This means that we are going to run into the same problem we have run into every year for the last four -- that at the end of 75 so-called sessional days, the work of the committee will not yet have been completed and we will not have been afforded the opportunity to properly evaluate the estimates of a number of ministries.",
"I want to ask you, sir, to rule in one of two ways, either to rule that a session day --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I would like the hon. member to not restrict me to one of two ways."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Then I would ask you to consider two ways of ruling and to add any other that you desire -- other than no --",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"-- that a sessional day be interpreted as it appears in the rules as a day on which the House sits, and therefore Wednesdays not be considered sessional days; or secondly, that the committee be instructed by the House to sit on Wednesdays for the purpose of hearing estimates, and that for the committees which are required by motion of the government to sit for any other purpose, that day not be considered as a sessional day for the purpose of hearing estimates."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, if I might make a brief contribution. I know of no inhibition to restrain any committee from sitting on Wednesdays."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Oh, that’s not what I said."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"It seems to me that the rules are quite clear, on page 19 of our standing orders, in which first of all, 87(a) sets forth the fact that a sitting means a period of 2% hours --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"-- and the term “sessional day” means any day on which the House sits."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Right. It doesn’t sit on Wednesday."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"But the Wednesdays have been set aside for committee meetings particularly so that the committees may sit on any Wednesday as they are supposed to, as has been ordered by the House."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"But that is not a sessional day because the House does not sit."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I think that’s a pretty fine point and I think the House could have sat. The fact that it didn’t was to permit the committees to sit. I believe the intention of the committee that studied the rules for the House and that brought in a report was that Wednesday would be a sessional day, and that it would be a day on which the committee would sit and that the sittings for that particular day would be included as part of the total 30 days. That is what I believe to be the case.",
"Again, since the point raised by the hon. member seems to be a very fine point, I will have to investigate it further, but my opinion is that the Wednesday would be counted as one of the sittings."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Well, further to the point, sir, and in order that you might consider it in addition to the point I made that you are going to consider, would you then consider that on days when matters other than estimates are being considered by committees, that those days not be considered as sessional days for the purpose of determining the number of days allocated for hearing estimates?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member lost me after the first sentence. Perhaps he’d repeat it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"On the notice paper it says -- on this particular day it says nothing -- but on the notice paper it frequently says that certain committees will sit for the purpose of studying bills, for example, the Health Disciplines Act. But when a committee is studying a bill, I would suggest that day not be considered as a sessional day for the purpose of estimates consideration, because obviously that day is then deducted from the total number of days available for the committee to hear estimates."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I’ll consider that point raised by the hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Oral questions. The hon. member for Kitchener."
]
}
] |
May 30, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-30/hansard-1
|
POLICE RAID ON HOTEL
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, a question of the Solicitor General, following his statement: In the response of bad reaction, which has been almost universal, to this whole event that took place at Fort Erie, is he prepared to have the police commission’s inquiry be a public one so that the full story and background of this matter can be completely clarified once and for all?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, under the Police Act there are one or two sections where an investigation or inquiry can be held by the police commission. Section 56, for example, gives the commission the power to hold hearings and all the authority it would have under the Public Inquiries Act. Therefore I would assume that if, during the course of the investigation, the commission felt hearings were required and people should be subpoenaed to attend hearings, that would be sufficient."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"That is not good enough."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"That is the trouble."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, by way of a supplementary question, will the Solicitor General specifically state now that it will be an inquiry under section 57 of the Police Act and that the Lieutenant Governor in Council will direct the commission to inquire into this matter and not leave it under the more nebulous and inadequate provisions of section 56?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, in view of the nature of this inquiry and the events that have occurred that I feel require an inquiry, it is not the sort of judicial-type of inquiry, the formal type of inquiry --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"That is a technical point."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"That should not be so. That is the whole point of it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"-- that is normally necessary when there are very complex issues to be decided and considered."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Section 57 of the Police Act says that the Lieutenant Governor in Council may direct the commission to inquire into and report. Then it sets out in extension the provisions and provides for all the powers."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"He said that only after he had a report."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The Solicitor General is having the police investigate the police and he is setting it up in advance. It is unacceptable."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the particular section of the Act to be used for the inquiry hasn’t been decided as yet. This is something",
"I want to discuss with the members of the commission. It is possible that section 57 would be used."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Supplementary, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Ottawa",
"East was up previously on a supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, as a supplementary to the minister’s statement, he mentioned that he had been misquoted. I would like to know pending this inquiry whether he is prepared to issue instructions or guidelines to police officers in relation to drug raids and, secondly, whether he is prepared to allow or to condone similar raids and similar searches, as he was quoted in the newspaper yesterday."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"No, Mr. Speaker, I wouldn’t condone this type of a raid to this extent at all."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"The Solicitor General did yesterday. Why did he change his mind?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"That’s where I have been misinterpreted. Mr. Speaker, when you talk about a raid of this kind you talk about all the procedures and searches that were conducted as a result of that raid. I have never condoned the type of physical search that was conducted by the police on those premises."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"What’s on the front page of the Star then?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"The minister said it was fine yesterday."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"Certainly, as a result of this inquiry, there would be guidelines laid down by the police commission.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Scarborough West."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Solicitor General from the length of time he allowed to lapse between the time of the raid and its coming to his attention and the institution of the inquiry, from his responses throughout the piece, notwithstanding what he has said today, and from his equivocation about whether or not it will be a public inquiry, does the minister not recognize that all of that is essentially an American view of law and order, not a Canadian view of law and order, and that it is time the minister recognizes as Solicitor General he has civil liberties to protect as well as the public to defend?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"That is exactly what he has done."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Downsview.",
"Does the minister wish to respond to that statement?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"I don’t agree with the hon. member’s statement at all."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"All right. The hon. member for Downsview."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. F. Foulds (Port Arthur)",
"text": [
"The minister does not agree that he has civil rights to defend?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Can the minister possibly tell us how he can justify one paragraph of his statement today, that he realizes full well that the legality of the actions of the police is not an issue and that there is general acceptance the police acted within the law, when all of the people consulted and referred to by the media say there is grave doubt about it; when no less a person than Rt. Hon. John Diefenbaker says it is against the law; and when the minister himself knows there has to be reasonable cause and today complains there was a search of all the female customers of that establishment? How can he say that it is well known and generally accepted that the police actions were within the law?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"I am saying, Mr. Speaker, the raid was conducted within the provisions of the law under the Narcotics Control Act and any other statutes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"The minister didn’t say “the raid”; he said “the legality of the actions of the police.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"I’m saying as to the conducting of the raid. I wish the hon. member wouldn’t take things out of context. I’m talking about the raid."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"It says it right here in a paragraph."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"I’m talking about the fact that the police moved in and were there and announced that a search would be made of the premises and those people in there. That is within the law.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"That provision is within the law."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"Unfortunately, because of the broad section of section 10 of the Narcotics Control Act, it would appear there was nothing illegal about the search that was conducted."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"But it was repellent to everyone in Ontario except the minister."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"Under the provisions of the law and the federal legislation that exists at the present time, it is not illegal."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"It says it right here; separate paragraph."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"But it was repellent to everyone in Ontario except the minister."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"It was wrong in every sense."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"Right, I’m not defending that law at all. I’m just making a statement that it wasn’t illegal."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"It is grounds for resignation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"The minister should resign."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"These are grounds for resignation. It is not characteristic of the minister."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"As far as Mr. Diefenbaker is concerned --",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"-- I would like to know what particular point he’s made that said it was unconstitutional.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for High Park."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"What was the reason given to the minister by the police for searching all the females -- stripping all the females and not the males -- and is this the normal pattern in these raids?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Who gave the authority?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the reason is -- as I implied in the statement -- because of the way that women can secrete drugs, it is necessary to have a complete examination. That was the reason given to me."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"But not the men."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Kitchener."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Supplementary, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"If the minister’s judgement is no better than his pronunciation, he is in trouble."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Since presumably the main drug concern of the Niagara regional police and other forces is with drug trafficking, and since possession is a relatively minor offence, will the minister investigate as part of this proposed study, just how much drugs and other items were to be expected to be found as a result of rectal and vaginal searches of young people?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"That, of course, would be part of the inquiry; that’s the type of information we want to know."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Yes, but it is a secret inquiry."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order. There have been six supplementaries."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"He suggested there is a difference between the female rectum and the male rectum -- and I would like to know what the difference is?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"By way of supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I have not recognized the hon. member for Riverdale. I said there were six supplementaries in addition to the original question. The standing orders clearly indicate it is up to the Speaker to determine when a reasonable number of supplementaries has been asked. In my opinion, there has been a reasonable number or supplementaries."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"But it is an important question, and there have been six preposterous answers."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Kitchener."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, on a point of order: There were two particularly important statements which have been made today; one by the Solicitor General and the other by the Minister of Transportation and Communications.",
"Now, the latter minister apparently is elsewhere and is not available to answer questions in that important area. One would hope, therefore, that more questions could be placed in the area under the statement of the Solicitor General, since I think none of the other ministers has matters of as great importance as the ones which have been raised by the Solicitor General. I would ask the Speaker to reconsider that, so that further questions could be answered?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"There is nothing in the standing orders at all to indicate that any one minister must be present. If two ministers have made statements, and since there are occasions upon which a minister must absent himself from the House, that is no reason at all for the Speaker to indicate that further questions may be asked of the other minister who made a statement. I indicated to the House that, in accordance with the standing orders, a reasonable number of supplementaries had been asked. I reiterate that ruling; the hon. member for Kitchener may ask a new question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"And there are 17 ministers absent."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Boy, is the minister happy? Saved by the bell."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Scarborough West."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"The legality is not in question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Scarborough West may ask questions."
]
}
] |
May 30, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-30/hansard-1
|
DEMOLITION LEGISLATION
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"A question of the provincial Treasurer: Where is the demolition permit legislation which was promised to the House by his colleague, who works within the Treasurer’s general ambit?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the cabinet considered this legislation yesterday. They have directed my colleague, the Minister without Portfolio (Mr. Irvine), and me to refine certain aspects of it. My colleague is meeting the mayor of Toronto later today and we would hope to introduce the bill next week."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Scarborough West."
]
}
] |
May 30, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-30/hansard-1
|
NANTICOKE COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"A question, again, if I may, of the provincial Treasurer, relating to the new town at Nanticoke. Are the developers from whom he bought the land involved in the actual development of the townsite itself? Is that something which has been established in advance?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"No, on the contrary, Mr. Speaker, there is a clear understanding in contractual form that they will not be involved within two miles of the townsite."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Will they be called upon to develop any aspect of the townsite?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I wouldn’t expect that to be done by the Ontario Land Corp. I would expect the Ontario Land Corp. to call tenders on every aspect of the development."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"On tenders? Could the Treasurer table the contract?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"I’d be glad to."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Thank you."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Supplementary?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. D. M. Deacon (York Centre)",
"text": [
"A supplementary: Did the minister’s decision to deal with these land speculators take into consideration the fact that the land on which they had options was the best agricultural land in the area, and not the worst?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"Well, in fact, that is a misstatement, as the hon. member’s leader (Mr. R. F. Nixon) will know. It’s not the best land at all. There is no class 1 land involved. The London Free Press made it clear in an editorial last Saturday --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Did they talk about the Treasurer?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"-- that while this was arable land, it was not the best land. And if the hon. member for York Centre has criticisms to make about this deal, why doesn’t he speak to his leader, who was the big push behind this and who was trying to shove us into this deal at much higher prices?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"He wasn’t."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"The government is the one that has blundered.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"Perhaps the minister will read the statements that have been made repeatedly by my leader, that the development of the --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Is there a question here?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"Yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"We are getting there."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"I have asked --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Perhaps the hon. member will say, “will the minister read them”?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"Right. Will the minister read the statements made by my leader, that indeed such a development is not needed and that existing communities could take care of the growth required for some time to come?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"That’s wasn’t what he said in the House a little while ago."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"Let me, Mr. Speaker, undertake now to get extracts from Hansard and, the public prints, showing just how enthusiastic the Liberal leader was in this regard. And let me observe, before I sit down, that the hon. member asks this kind of question only when his leader is away."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Scarborough West."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Look what the Minister of Energy (Mr. McKeough) does when the Premier is away.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Ambition dies hard in this House, Mr. Speaker!",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"That’s why I’m always here.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
}
] |
May 30, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-30/hansard-1
|
TORONTO ISLAND AIRPORT
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"May I ask the Minister of Transportation and Communications --",
"Interjection by an hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Let me suggest, if I may, Mr. Speaker, that if the member for Kitchener wants to open up this subject, he should, because I know he had intended to, and then you would allow a flow of supplementaries on the minister’s statement today."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Well, I think that is very considerate of the hon. member. If the hon. member for Kitchener would like to do that, I’ll permit it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"Those fellows are in love again."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Perhaps I’ll start off at this point, Mr. Speaker, and ask what possible justification the minister can offer us as to the reason why doctored minutes of these various committee meetings were given, not only to our research office and other persons who had asked them, but apparently as well to at least two members of the committee itself, the two Toronto aldermen, Don Heap and Dorothy Thomas. And why were the complaints and reservations and comments, especially those made by Ald. Heap, edited from the summary of the minutes?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, first I would like to apologize to the hon. member for not being in my seat when obviously he wanted to ask that question. I was called from the House on an important matter. I do apologize, and I am pleased that he was given this courtesy."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"I appreciate the minister’s too."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"He has met the press now."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"Now to answer the question -- I do hope that I won’t be interrupted any more by the member for Toronto Island until it’s his turn."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"He is not the member for Toronto Island. He is just somebody we have to contend with down there. He is making it difficult for the island."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, as I understand the minutes, and I really won’t accept that they are doctored minutes --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"The government doesn’t have to extend the airport there to get rid of me."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"I have not received even the so-called adjusted minutes that he referred to. I am not a member of that committee and I have not received them. The minutes, as I understand it, were prepared in a simple form and a short form in order to get the pertinent information to the members of the committee and to those who have indicated interest."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Do away with the criticism.",
"Interjection by an hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"I have stated already in my statement that the complete minutes will be made available -- I don’t have the right to say that but I will certainly suggest to the committee that the complete minutes be made available to those who wish them."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. P. G. Givens (York-Forest Hill)",
"text": [
"A supplementary?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Scarborough West has a supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Good gracious, I have, but there is a limit.",
"I would like to ask the minister, in view of his continued denial of motives on the part of the Province of Ontario on the establishment of yet a second airport on the island, how is it that the one document which deals with that in explicit terms comes from Mr. McCartney, the project manager, general aviation, of the Ministry of Transportation and Communications, who deals with the east headlands as an additional site, as an alternative site, in precisely the fashion which the minister indicated in his statement was beyond the terms of reference of the committee?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the gentleman mentioned has been giving technical advice to the committee."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"He is giving the Ontario view.",
"Interjection by an hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"He provided this particular working paper to the committee for its consideration. It is not a final position. It is not the position of the ministry or of the government. It is a report prepared by him for the use of the committee as an internal working document for the committee to work with. The options are in there; so is the history of the particular project going back to when it was first talked about. It is a detailed report and working paper to be used by the committee.",
"I emphasize to you, sir, and to all the members of this House, there is no decision of any kind concerning the use of Toronto Island or the east headland for airports; none of these options has been discussed by government. It has been done entirely by that committee, associated members thereto and technical staff assigned by the various bodies represented I on the committee."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"A supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for York-Forest Hill."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"In view of all the public controversy wouldn’t it serve the public interest better if, rather than tabling the minutes which are really a regurgitation of what took place at the meeting of the committee -- whether they be doctored or undoctored -- the minister would table all the reports placed before the committee, particularly the one by the aviation planning services and the other by Mr. McCartney of the ministry, so this assembly can determine what is going on before this committee?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, it is not my committee nor is it a committee of the ministry. As I indicated in the statement, it is a committee made up of representatives of various bodies, political and otherwise, here in the metropolitan area including the federal government as well as the Ministry of Transportation and Communications.",
"I have already stated, in the closing paragraph of my statement, that when the final report is prepared -- and I can only say that because that is when it will come to me -- I would be prepared and am prepared to table that report plus any other pertinent information gathered in the development of the report. I don’t think, sir, that I should be tabling before you at this time, material which belongs to that committee."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"But this committee was called together under the minister’s aegis. He is the dominant factor in this committee, isn’t he?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Scarborough West with a supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"One last supplementary to the minister. Why does the minister not make a categorical statement in the House now that he will not permit or contemplate, at present or in the future, an additional airport on Toronto Island? We have Malton, Pickering, Buttonville and the airport already there; to add yet another would be madness and would distort the Toronto-centred region plan anyway because of its concentration in the city of Toronto area."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I wouldn’t do that for a very obvious reason."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Why?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"If I did that, it would be members opposite who would leap to their feet and immediately accuse us of taking away from the local people any opportunity to consider all of the factors."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"Of course they would."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"No, the minister would have some transportation policy if he did that. If that is the only reason, let him try it and see our response.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"At this stage in the game I don’t know what to expect but I can say to the members that I will not make that statement at this time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Well the minister should. That is what makes us suspicious."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"When that report is completed, surely to goodness this House would want to have all of the possibilities investigated?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"No, I am not interested in a second airport at all; not at all."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"The member may not be.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"No one is interested except the businessmen of downtown Toronto and that ministry."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order. The hon. member for Waterloo."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"This is a new question, Mr. Speaker.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"Isn’t the NDP leader ready yet?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Has the hon. member for Scarborough West no further questions?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"No, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"All right. The hon. Minister of Energy has the answer to a question asked previously."
]
}
] |
May 30, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-30/hansard-1
|
HYDRO HEADQUARTERS CATERING CONTRACT
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. D. McKeough (Minister of Energy)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, on Friday morning the hon. member for Kitchener asked a three-point question relating to the catering contract for the new Hydro building. The question was directed to the Premier (Mr. Davis) but I will answer it.",
"The first part of the question was as follows:",
"Can the Premier advise why the catering contract for the new Ontario Hydro headquarters has apparently been awarded to Malloney’s without any tenders being called?",
"It is my understanding, Mr. Speaker, that Hydro’s contract with Canada Square left the renting of all the commercial space to Canada Square. Accordingly, Canada Square entered into a contract with the Egans for, I think, 28,000 sq ft. Hydro got a percentage of the excess revenue over a base amount. It was Hydro’s original intention that the coffee service on its 19 floors would be separate from any catering arrangement or any restaurant arrangement which was entered into in the commercial space. Canada Square, as it was required to, came to Hydro to get consent to enter into a lease with the Egans and the Egans at that time proposed an integrated food service in the entire building.",
"After investigation by Hydro, both internally and using the advice of a knowledgeable outside consultant. Hydro concluded that an integrated service made sense, both in terms of the food service itself and in terms of the financial gain to Ontario Hydro.",
"Hydro retains direct control over the extent, quality and performance of the really very limited vending service which is required on its office floors.",
"The second part of the question was:",
"Can the Premier explain why the CNIB, which is Hydro’s caterer in its present headquarters, was not asked to compete for the new contract and apparently has not even been made aware that the new contract has ben awarded?",
"I think I have answered the question in terms of the commercial restaurant facility arrangement between the Egans and Canada Square.",
"It is planned to continue with the service of the CNIB in Hydro’s Murray St. building. There are five or six employees at 620 University Ave., from the CNIB. It should be borne in mind that there will be no change in their status for well over a year. CNIB has informed us that there will be no problem placing these people elsewhere in Metro and, in any case, Hydro is taking steps to ensure that employment opportunities are offered to the CNIB employees, five or six in number, in other places somewhere in the Metro area. Just where, at this moment, we are not sure.",
"The third part of the question was:",
"Can the Premier advise if this is the same Malloney’s that operates the Edelweiss restaurant at Ontario Place?",
"I am informed, Mr. Speaker, that the Egan brothers originally operated that restaurant at Ontario Place, but this facility was sold some time in 1973 and is not now operated by the Egan brothers."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. Minister of Education has the answer to a question asked previously."
]
}
] |
May 30, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-30/hansard-1
|
WITHDRAWAL OF TEACHERS’ SERVICES
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. T. L. Wells (Minister of Education)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, a few days ago the hon. member for Port Arthur asked the Premier a question concerning the teachers’ dispute in York county, and he asked whether the Minister of Education was considering extending the date for the submission of resignations by the teachers in York county.",
"Mr. Speaker, the answer to that is no, I am not considering extending the date for those teachers."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"A supplementary: Since that bill imposed arbitration on them and since they are a special case in that regard, and since, in 1968, when the Premier was then Minister of Education he did extend the date in the case of Toronto resignations that were affecting the Metro board, why would the minister not consider extending the date of resignation?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, we considered this very carefully. The incident in 1968 that the member mentions was quite different and, as I am sure he is well aware, there is a provision for resignations by mutual consent presently in the contract, and I think the interests of all are best served by leaving the present contract and its conditions in force as they are."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"A further supplementary: Would the minister not agree that under normal circumstances, the teachers would know what salaries they would be faced with for the coming year and this way they don’t? Normally they would have the right to resign before May 31, knowing what their conditions of work would be the next year. In this case they don’t."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"I might point out to my friend that at this time last year the contracts which were to be in force and under which those teachers would start working last September were still being negotiated. They did not know what the conditions of employment would be at that time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"Yes, but they were not being forced, under arbitration."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Has the hon. member for Waterloo North a new question?"
]
}
] |
May 30, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-30/hansard-1
|
ASSISTANCE FOR FLOOD VICTIMS
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"A question of the Provincial Secretary for Resources Development."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Does the minister know who that is?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"Now that the citizens’ committees have been set up to raise money for flood relief in the Waterloo region and the payment of claims, could the minister inform the House what vehicle is going to be used for examining the circumstances of the flooding in the Waterloo regional area? Would it be the ministry or an independent body?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"While this is being administered by the Ministry of Treasury, Economics and Intergovernmental Affairs, under whose aegis the legislation is in effect, I would give a general answer that it is the community, the municipality, which sets up the organization and --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"The minister has missed my question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"Pardon?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I think the minister misunderstood. The Minister of Natural Resources said that he would, some time in the future, indicate who would be investigating the circumstances surrounding the actual flooding conditions. What is the body that has been promised to investigate those circumstances?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"That should be directed to the Minister of Natural Resources. He’s the one who is setting it up."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Is he here?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"It is a matter of government policy, Mr. Speaker, and since the minister is not here, I thought the provincial secretary would know. Might I ask a supplementary?",
"Would the minister seriously consider the suggestion made by many people in the area -- including the chairman of the Grand River Conservation Authority and the regional chairman, as well as me -- that there should be an agency established which could deal with it and which would give opportunity for public representation and the gathering of public information when the circumstances surrounding the flooding are being investigated?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, in the first place, there is no question at all as to whether I knew what the policy was. It was expounded by the Minister of Natural Resources on the floor of this Legislature. He said he would set up a committee. The question of whether it would be a public investigation was asked at that time and answered by my colleague, the minister. If the hon. member is suggesting that --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Where did he go? Where is he today?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"He didn’t know then."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"He gave the answer at that time. Whatever answer he gave is what applies."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"He didn’t know."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"He said he hadn’t decided yet."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"When the hon. minister decides, he will, I’m sure, make a public statement to that effect."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"Surely that’s a policy decision?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"The hon. member may be surprised, Mr. Speaker, but we don’t get together four times a day so that I can find out what he’s done in the last hour."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"They don’t get together at all!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"Indeed, it’s not my business to find out what he’s doing every day. That’s his business."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"What is the minister’s business? That’s what we’d like to know."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"He has his ministry and he’s looking after it very well. I would suggest the hon. member ask the Minister of Natural Resources to give him a reply to that question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"We would, but he’s not here."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"All right. I’ll make sure that the hon. minister has been made aware of the question the hon. member has asked."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"A supplementary, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Kitchener."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Following the statement which the minister made concerning the funding being arranged for the communities and persons harmed in the most recent flood, can the minister advise us what response he has received from the federal authorities to his request that an additional dollar be added to match the provincial dollar of contribution so that, hopefully, the amount which would otherwise be raised within the community could be tripled?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have had no reply from the federal authorities unless, of course, my colleague, the Treasurer, has had a reply. I know he has written them as well."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"Has the minister asked?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Ruston (Essex-Kent)",
"text": [
"He didn’t speak to them down there."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"A supplementary? Yes, the hon. member for Windsor-Walkerville with a supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman (Windsor-Walkerville)",
"text": [
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Is the ministry considering a flood insurance scheme in co-operation or in conjunction with the federal government, so that in such future disasters there would be at least insurance available for those who might be adversely affected?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Does he know anything about insurance?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the matter of flood insurance has been under consideration by the government for some time and as a matter of fact we’re hoping we will be in a position to make a statement on a specific action which we have decided upon in the immediate future. As a matter of fact there is some concern as to whether this thing is possible and whether it could be helpful in a situation which arose a couple of weeks ago, but it is under consideration by the government."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Wentworth."
]
}
] |
May 30, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-30/hansard-1
|
HAMILTON TEACHERS’ COLLEGE
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, a question of the Minister of Education: Is it true that the minister and his ministry have decided to close the Hamilton Teachers’ College and to locate the teaching facility in the Brock University?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, it is not true."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"A supplementary question: Is it then fair to assume that Hamilton Teachers’ College will not be closed?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"No, Mr. Speaker. We will have a statement on that in a week or so."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"It is always in a week or so."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Before I call on the hon. member for Downsview, the provincial Treasurer has the answer to a question. Then the hon. member for Downsview."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"More good news, Mr. Speaker --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Here is the legislative crier."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"-- on how we saved the Ontario taxpayer more than $8 million by investing cash reserves wisely."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"The Treasurer borrowed $1 million from Hydro this week, you know, Mr. Speaker."
]
}
] |
May 30, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-30/hansard-1
|
ONTARIO INVESTMENTS IN U.S.
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, last week the member for High Park asked me about our investment in US dollar time deposits, and I stated that I would give a report of our activities in this area.",
"Investment in US dollar deposits has been an essential part of our overall programme for the investment of our cash reserves, and we have confined our current US dollar activity to investments in fully hedged deposits with Canadian banks in Toronto. As the members know, the hedging of these investments by contracting for the sale of the eventual proceeds at an agreed price when we originally arrange the deposits, protects us against any fluctuations in the value of the US dollar so that they are, for practical purposes, the same as Canadian dollar deposits.",
"But US dollar deposits have over the years offered a better return. For instance, if we had invested in traditional domestic instruments at prevailing interest rates, we estimate the province would have earned interest income totalling about $255 million on its time deposits during the past six years.",
"The actual interest earned on the province’s time deposits during this period was $298 million. The $43 million difference is due to the decision to invest in US dollar time deposits with Canadian banks.",
"Let me give you an example, Mr. Speaker. On May 7, Ontario made a 56-day hedged US dollar deposit of $10 million. In round figures, the interest earnings on this deposit will be $184,000. If we had made an equivalent domestic deposit our interest would have been $130,000, almost one-third less.",
"I want to deal now with the second point raised by the member for High Park on the basis of observations in the Provincial Auditor’s report.",
"In 1968, Ontario was attracted by the higher interest rates, sometimes exceeding one percentage point higher being offered by Canadian banks on US dollar tune deposits. At that time the value of the dollar was fixed at 92.5 cents US. Since fluctuations of the dollar were minimal, there was no hedge undertaken against currency changes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Is this a ministerial statement?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"By May, 1970, Ontario had unhedged US dollar time deposits of $647 million. Very few investors anticipated the upward pressure which developed on the Canadian dollar in the year 1970. By mid-year these pressures were so intense that in spite of the purchase of $1 billion of foreign exchange reserves, Ottawa was forced to abandon the fixed exchange rate and the Canadian dollar began to appreciate rapidly. Although the province could have minimized its foreign exchange costs by the purchase of Canadian dollars in mid-1970, such action would have been highly irresponsible as this large transfer would surely have created extreme difficulties for Canada in the foreign exchange market.",
"The decision was made to remain in an unhedged US dollar position and to unwind that position under a programme of orderly conversion to Canadian dollars as the Canadian dollar stabilized. Under this programme we have reduced our unhedged US deposits to $205 million, and we will be concerting this balance at an appropriate time.",
"Mr. Speaker, our unwillingness to create severe difficulties in the summer of 1970 obliged us to remain in an unhedged position during the appreciation of the Canadian dollar in the latter part of that year. The exchange costs associated with this decision -- $34.6 million on the assets converted to date -- offsets but does not eliminate the estimated $43 million in increased interest earnings attributable to the province’s decision to maintain a diversified portfolio. The balance, incidentally, works out to $8.4 million which is our net profit, so to speak, on these investments.",
"Mr. Speaker, it has been necessary to go into considerable detail in the answer but I was anxious to give the House as full an explanation as possible of this important aspect of Ontario’s investment programme."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Couldn’t he make a statement?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"A supplementary, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I might say that the answer to the question took a longer than normal time, and has constituted a statement by the ministry and is in excess of the usual time. I will, therefore, in fairness, extend the question period by two minutes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Thank you Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for High Park has a supplementary?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"How much does this province have in unhedged foreign time deposits at the present time?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"It has $205 million."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"A further supplementary: How did the minister happen to forget that in his statement?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"I didn’t forget it Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"The minister missed a page or two."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"As I said: “under this programme we have reduced our unhedged US time deposits to $205 million”."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"I beg your pardon. How many unhedged foreign -- I didn’t say US -- time deposits have been placed in me last 12 months?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"We’ve reduced this amount in the last 18 months, or thereabouts, from --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"How many new ones has the minister placed?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"None to my knowledge."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"None?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"None to my knowledge."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Downsview."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"To the minister’s knowledge?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"None to my knowledge. If I am mistaken --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Better check."
]
}
] |
May 30, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-30/hansard-1
|
SPECULATIVE LAND TAX
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Treasurer. A remark is attributed to the Treasurer in Wednesday’s Star to the effect --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I’m sure there is an interrogation coming?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Yes. It was to the effect that Mr. Stanfield “will do that for us.” That means that Mr. Stanfield, if he gets to be Prime Minister, would allow the deduction of --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"What’s the question?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"-- the land speculation tax from the federal taxes. Does the minister have any commitment from Mr. Stanfield to this effect, or is this just the minister’s guess?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"Sir, the Progressive Conservative Party of Canada is in full accord with the need for decentralization --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Watch it on CBC."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"-- and is in full accord with the need to provide the provinces with additional resources for that purpose."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"So one can contrast this with the remarks of the federal Minister of Finance --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Did the minister get a commitment from Stanfield? Did he get a commitment?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"-and I’ll quote now, from yesterday’s Star."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Yes, same article. Did the minister get a commitment, though?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"I quote: “Finance Minister John Turner said in a telephone interview yesterday” --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Why doesn’t the minister answer the question?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"-- “the province has no reason to assume the federal government will allow it to intrude” -- and so forth."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Why doesn’t the minister answer the question? Did he get a commitment from Stanfield?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"One has the absurd combination of federal policy --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Did the minister get a commitment?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"-- to do nothing themselves about inflation and, secondly, to try to prevent the provinces from doing anything about inflation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Did the minister get a commitment?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Is the minister going into federal politics?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"Never. Not ever."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Did the minister get a commitment?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"The federal government decided several years ago to vacate, and leave for the provinces, resource industry revenue."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Did the minister get a commitment from Stanfield?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"I can hardly believe that even the Liberals, were they re-elected, which is unlikely to the point of impossibility --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Did the minister get a commitment?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"Would the minister like to make a small wager about that?",
"Interjection by an hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Did the minister get a commitment?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"And I am perfectly sure that the government --",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Well this bill should be withdrawn now."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"Oh, the member for Scarborough West shouldn’t put himself in league with the speculators."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Not at all. The government should not be pursuing a bill where they have no guarantee. They are in chaos on this bill."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"I am perfectly sure we will be discussing this and other matters with Mr. Stanfield, hopefully, in the middle of June."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Did the minister get a commitment?",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"The minister still didn’t answer the question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"It would make a good Provincial Affairs programme.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"A supplementary: Did the minister get a commitment from Mr. Stanfield?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The member is asking the same question. The hon. member for High Park."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"It wasn’t answered."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"The minister can’t answer it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Is the minister seriously suggesting that imposing this, or any other tax, will stop inflation?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"Is the hon. member seriously purporting to be an economist?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"I can do better than the minister is doing.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Ottawa East."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"How much time is left, Mr. Speaker?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"There are exactly seven minutes left."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"A supplementary on this question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Scarborough West, a supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Since the evidence is mounting that the present government and the senior civil service will not allow its speculative land tax to be deductible, based on a differing interpretation of jurisdiction relating more to capital gains than to those areas this government has discussed, how can the minister continue to bring this legislation to the floor of the House, presumably pass it, and allow the market to work under the wrong comprehension of what will occur, thus throwing everything into a shambles several months from now -- as well as now?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, this form of tax in other resource areas has not been considered as income tax for federal income tax purposes, and I have no reason to think that this will be the case some weeks hence, whether or not Mr. Stanfield leads the government. I am not going to let bad-tempered mutterings --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"But the Treasurer knows it is improbable.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Can he prove they won’t do otherwise?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"-- bad-tempered mutterings relayed via the Toronto Star deter us from a very strong measure to deal with inflation in this province."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Oh, the Toronto Star again."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"A suspicious source!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Well, well, if it’s in the Toronto Star --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"And if it should happen at some future date --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Talk about bad temper!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"-- that the federal government does take us into --",
"Interjection by an hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"-- the constitutional courts on the matter then we’ll fight it every inch of the way."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Oh, ho, ho. It’s their jurisdiction."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Settle down and shut up."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The member for Ottawa East."
]
}
] |
May 30, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-30/hansard-1
|
MINIMUM WAGE RATES
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Labour (Mr. Guindon) and the Provincial Secretary for Social Development (Mrs. Birch) and the Premier, I will ask a question of the Treasurer --",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Quite a few missing today."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"-- and it deals with the minimum wage in this province.",
"As a senior minister, doesn’t he find it embarrassing that he will have people working in this province for an hourly wage which is going to be less than that received by inmates in federal institutions who are going to be receiving the federal minimum wage? How can he tolerate that in this province?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Less than Manitoba, less than British Columbia."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"Well, sir, our unemployment rate here is something like 3.8 per cent -- I am sorry, I can’t bring the exact figure to mind --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"That’s right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"-- and I think the question might be rephrased. Does a person in the Maritimes or in certain of the western provinces, where unemployment ranges up to 27 per cent, have to go to jail to get a decent living from the federal government? Now, that’s the question.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"He’s got to be kidding!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"He is going to run federally."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Does the Treasurer intend to raise the minimum wage in this province and not allow a situation where in fact, hard-working, honest, law-abiding citizens in this province will be making $2 per hour --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Let them try working a little harder."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"-- while inmates in federal institutions will be making $2.20 an hour. How can he tolerate that in the richest province in this country?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Is there any place you’d rather be?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"Yes, apparently the unemployment rate is 3.6 per cent, as I had stated."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Just answer my question. How can honest people be blamed?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"The minimum wage, sir, is under consideration by the government. I expect the Minister of Labour will be referring to this within a week."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"We haven’t a Minister of Labour."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"There is not a minister in here."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Which minister?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"But I repeat my difficulty. Here you have 27 per cent unemployed in Newfoundland -- 27 per cent --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"They have a Conservative government, no wonder!",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"It’s a Conservative government!",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"-- because of inappropriate government policies -- 27 people out of 100.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"Do the people in Newfoundland have to go to jail to get a decent living because of these misguided, out-of-date federal policies?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Or because they have got a Conservative government. It is as good a reason as any."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Yes, yes, it’s a provincial responsibility.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"It’s going to pay you to go to jail in this province, if this government keeps it up."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"It doesn’t pay you to here."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The Treasurer can’t save Bob Stanfield’s job."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Sudbury."
]
}
] |
May 30, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-30/hansard-1
|
INVESTMENT OF OMERS FUNDS
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. C. Germa (Sudbury)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, a question of the provincial Treasurer. With reference to his budgetary statement that 20 per cent of OMERS funds would be available for municipal borrowing, can he assure the House that the rate paid will be at least that of the provincial average for the respective year?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"Absolutely not! Does the member mean to say that I am called upon to guarantee those funds that OMERS invests in municipal or industrial bonds? Not very likely. That’s the chance they take.",
"And incidentally, when the Hospitals of Ontario Pension Plan was let loose, their earnings fell from something like eight per cent to something like two per cent."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Germa",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, on a point of clarification, is he saying the OMERS board now has freedom to invest in any area of the market as they see fit?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"My hon. friend must know better than that. I did say that next year they are going to be permitted to invest 20 per cent of their total inflow of cash for that year in debentures other than Ontario debentures.",
"When they have this investment facility in place well see what the experience is; we’ll see whether that can be increased. I’ve got a meeting coming up very shortly with OMERS -- as a matter of fact, it’s on Thursday, June 20 -- to discuss this and related matters."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Windsor-Walkerville."
]
}
] |
May 30, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-30/hansard-1
|
EXTENSION OF OMERS BENEFITS
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I wanted to ask a question of the provincial Treasurer dealing with OMERS also.",
"Is the ministry considering extending the pension benefits under the OMERS scheme so that elected officials, other than councillors -- that is, officials of utilities commissions and school boards -- could have the benefits of the OMERS scheme?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"Well, this has been mentioned to me. I don’t know what stage it is at. I would not be opposed to that, I don’t think, but it is at an early stage of consideration."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for St. George."
]
}
] |
May 30, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-30/hansard-1
|
TORONTO ISLAND AIRPORT
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mrs. Campbell",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, my question is of the Minister of Transportation and Communications. In view of the statement he made referring to the minutes, is the minister aware of the fact that the committee had taken the position that the interested persons would have the minutes, not a summary, and that in fact a letter from Mr. Johnson, your chairman of your committee, sent to Ald. Eggleton, under date of May 17, 1974 -- when he denied him too, the right to have an observer present -- advised that copies of the minutes would be available?",
"In view of the statement made by the minister, in which he said it was not a provincial matter, is he aware of the Statement in the proper minutes that MTC’s participation in the north was ongoing --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson",
"text": [
"Is this a speech or a question?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mrs. Campbell",
"text": [
"-- but that in the future they would be involved in southern Ontario? Would the minister explain that position?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of what goes on in that committee. I would like to make it clear again that I am not a member of that committee, that the committee is not my committee and that the chairman of the committee is not my chairman. I’ll leave it at that.",
"I haven’t seen the minutes that the hon. member is referring to, but I do know that there has been consideration given by the government to attempt to develop in southern Ontario, an air service similar to the type that has worked so effectively in the northeast and in the northwest. There have been requests from municipalities that are not served at present by the other ordinary carriers, to give consideration to including them in any such service.",
"I point out to the hon. member that there has been no budgetary allowance made for that programme in southern Ontario at this time. But in keeping with the requests that have been made to the ministry, we feel there is a responsibility to look into the possibility of that developing. Whether or not that would mean it would have to include an airport on Toronto Island, I am not prepared to say. In fact, I would go back to the question asked of me by the hon. leader of the New Democratic Party, and say that as far as I am concerned, I personally wouldn’t be prepared to recommend or even look at another airport on Toronto Island. But I again point out it is a matter that will be discussed with --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Say that again. Say that again!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"I would say, as a personal opinion, that I wouldn’t be prepared to recommend another airport on Toronto Island."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Now that is what the minister should be saying I He should have been saying that 72 hours ago."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"What I am saying is that this is a federal matter and that we are involved, as a part of this committee, to gather information."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Oh, come on."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"The very report that was being referred to, the working paper, is a summary of what has gone on for the past 10 years --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mrs. Campbell",
"text": [
"How does the minister know?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"-- and the particular options have evolved out of that information, gathered over the last 10 years. I am amazed that the hon. member for St. George, who is so intimately involved in this community, is not aware of these past studies."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mrs. Campbell",
"text": [
"A supplementary, Mr. Speaker --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I regret to say that we have exceeded the question period by five minutes now.",
"Petitions.",
"Presenting reports.",
"Motions.",
"Introduction of bills."
]
}
] |
May 30, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-30/hansard-1
|
EDUCATION ACT
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, this is the bill that we introduced during the last session and was known as Bill 255. It is a consolidation of the Ministry of Education Act, the Schools Administration Act, the Public Schools Act, the Separate Schools Act and the Secondary Schools and Boards of Education Act.",
"As you are aware, sir, that bill has sat on the order paper, it has been reviewed and it has been revised in many areas. The revised version now comes before the House. I should just particularly draw to the attention of the House that one of the concerns of some of the separate school trustees in this province concerned the Separate Schools Act and their need for a definite assurance that there would be no erosion of their rights -- something which I indicated when I introduced the bill on Nov. 30 would not happen, and which has been further strengthened by the addition of several sections to this draft bill.",
"It’s my intention that after second reading this bill should go to the standing committee on social development for full discussion of all the sections, including discussion with the members of the public. Perhaps, sir, I could at this point also mention, since this is a lengthy bill and just in order that we can know the timetabling for this session, I now find that I will have to change an answer that I gave in this House a few weeks ago about introducing the bill on teacher-school board negotiations. It would not be possible now for me to introduce the bill until the middle of June at the earliest, which would not give, adequate time --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Hear, hear."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"-- for full discussion, so I do not intend to introduce that particular bill until the House begins next fall."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The minister is right about that. You see, sense comes to those who stand and wait."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"Is it the intent of the minister to have this bill proceed through the committee and come into effect before the House rises for the summer break?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"He didn’t hear the question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"Is it the intent of the minister to have this proceed right through the committee and become effective before the summer break?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"I think that the answer to that really has to rest with the House. It’s pretty hard for me to predict the type of discussion or the length of discussion that will go on. I understand the committee still has many sections in the Health Disciplines Act to do and that after that it will be able to get down and do this bill."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Minister of Education if he does in fact have the collective bargaining bill in a state of preparation sufficient to bring it forward on June 15 or thereabouts, and since rumour has it we won’t be adjourning for at least six days beyond that, could we not see first reading of that bill and allow it to sit over the summer so that people would have access to it, since apparently he will have it ready before we adjourn?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"I think not, Mr. Speaker, because really it would have been a rush to get this bill and that one ready, and it would be so near the end of the House session that I think I would really rather leave it and introduce it in the fall."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"But this one is ready now. The ministry has lots of time to prepare the other one."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"This bill is ready now, but as the hon. members realize, once we get into committee I will be very busy with this bill."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"All we need is first reading, that’s all."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Are there any further bills? If not, the hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications has a report to make. Could I have the consent of the House to revert to reports?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like at this time to place before the House a report entitled “The Socio-Economic Effects of Telephone Rate Increases.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"They are all bad, that is what they are. He doesn’t need a report to tell him that much. He has told us how communications concerns people."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"Would the member really like me to tell him the obvious? Really? Here in this open House?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"He does it every day. He does it all the time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"No, I won’t tell him the obvious."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Further bills?"
]
}
] |
May 30, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-30/hansard-1
|
REGULATION OF PRIVATE VOCATIONAL SCHOOLS ACT
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. J. A. C. Auld (Minister of Colleges and Universities)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this bill is to provide an up-to-date registration system for private vocational schools to replace the Trade Schools Regulation Act. The bill will safeguard both the rights of the persons operating the schools and the persons using the schools. To this end, a private vocational school review board is established to conduct hearings under the Act."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, before the orders of the day, I would table the answers to questions 8 and 19 standing on the order paper. (See Appendix, page 2675.)"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Orders of the day."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Clerk of the House",
"text": [
"The second order, House in committee of the whole."
]
}
] |
May 30, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-30/hansard-1
|
LAND SPECULATION TAX ACT (CONTINUED)
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"On Bill 25, we were discussing section 19 and I am not sure whether the minister placed his motion or not."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. A. K. Meen (Minister of Revenue)",
"text": [
"No, I didn’t get my chance, Mr. Chairman. I move that section 19 of the bill be deleted and the following substituted therefor -- the substitution would be as it appears in the reprinted version in the hands of the hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Mr. Meen moves the new section 19 as printed -- is it necessary to read it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. A. Renwick (Riverdale)",
"text": [
"This is the same section with which we had the problem in the Land Transfer Tax Act, as I recall. This was where the agreements were to be filed with the minister before a certain date. He has now eliminated that requirement in this bill, as he did in the other bill, so that presumably we are left in the very nebulous position we were in the previous bill, that with written agreements, so long as at some point in time, be it ever so long, the minister is satisfied that the agreement existed, there will be no tax, if it meets the requirements in the section.",
"We feel the same as we did on the prior one. The date required for filing those agreements with the minister is a required protection for the revenue, and the minister has given way to the professional advice which he has got from those who have special interests in making certain that agreements such as this can be brought into existence or found in files, long after the time when the Act was brought into force."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I would agree that certainly it does give the minister that degree of flexibility, Mr. Chairman, and it certainly became apparent to me that flexibility was necessary. I would expect that in the ministry we may continue to receive submissions of this nature from time to time -- I would presume, also, at an-ever diminishing rate -- but I would not be at all surprised if, for some time to come, there was occasion when some person -- and it would not necessarily be a lawyer; some individual might have been holding his documents -- approaching the time when it was necessary for registration to take place, he might appear and find, otherwise than by this amendment, that he was precluded from registration except subject to the Act. The same arguments which I advanced in respect of the Land Transfer Tax Act do apply here."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The member for High Park."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. Shulman (High Park)",
"text": [
"I want to make sure I am discussing the right section 19. Is this the one with the pointing finger above it? That’s the one you want to have in, is it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Okay, because I thought you had reprinted it again. I am sorry. The point I want to bring up here is mildly disturbing to me. This morning I phoned the office of the Minister of Revenue to ask about this very specific section because I found it very difficult to understand how you could ever know when an agreement had been drawn up. What is to stop someone coming to you five years hence and saying “This was drawn up on April 8, 1974”? There is no way of really knowing this. In any case, I phoned the minister’s office --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. E. R. Good (Waterloo North)",
"text": [
"Chemical analysis of the ink."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Pardon?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"Chemical analysis of the ink."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Yes, apparently they are getting ink specialists. I am not even going to belabour that point because the whole thing went into a cocked hat as a result of my phone call.",
"First of all, you are are told to phone 965-1211 and they say, “What do you want?” You say “The Minister of Revenue”. “What do you want to ask about?” You tell them what you want to ask about and they say, “You must phone 965-1774.” I tried that for half an hour from 9 to 9:30 but that line is steadily busy. Apparently, I guess, they have only one line and millions of people are inquiring what the hell is going on. Finally, I phoned back again to 965-1211 and I said, “I have really got a problem --”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. V. M. Singer (Downsview)",
"text": [
"May I interrupt the member on a point of order, Mr. Chairman? I don’t believe there is a quorum."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Clerk of the House",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, there are 19 members present.",
"Mr. Chairman ordered that the bells be rung for four minutes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Clerk of the House",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I see a quorum."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"I recognize the member for High Park, he may proceed with his question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"It wasn’t exactly a question, it is more in the nature of a statement. Mr. Chairman, I was explaining my problem in getting through to my friend the minister. I want to inquire about a property which I want to sell -- how much tax should be paid? I had some difficulty.",
"Apparently there is a special number one must phone, 965-1774. This line is perpetually busy, because I presume they have only one line and there are 10,000 people trying to find out. In any case after half an hour I gave up and I phoned back to Queen’s Park again and I explained my problem and she said, “If you want to you can hold on, but that line is always busy.” So I held on again, and fortunately it only took 16 minutes -- 14 minutes to 10, she triumphantly came back and said she had a line for me.",
"I have a confession to make, Mr. Chairman. I hope you are not going to be upset with me. I didn’t want to use my name because I was afraid that I might get extra special attention and I used my secretary’s name in this conversation that followed."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Oh, dirty pool."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Her name is Worobec. I explained that I was Mrs. Worobec -- I have a high voice -- that I owned a property on Roncesvalles Ave., which was rented out to various persons, and that I was going to sell it next month.",
"I was going to explain as under section 19, that I already had a prior agreement -- you know that whole guff -- but it never got to that section you see, because this gentleman who I spoke to in the department, his name is Walker -- that’s what he said his name was and I presume they are not changing their names to protect themselves yet --",
"Don’t go away, Arthur. We are losing the minister again, we will lose the damn quorum again. How can he listen to me and talk to them at the same time?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I am listening."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. W. Hodgson (York North)",
"text": [
"The member had better get a couple of his own members to back him up."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"I just want the minister; I don’t need anybody else. If Arthur will just stay here I will be satisfied."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. W. Hodgson",
"text": [
"We only have three NDPs in the House."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Here he comes. Okay.",
"I explained to Mr. Walker that I had this building which I wanted to sell. He said: “What are you going to sell the building for?” And I said: “Eighty thousand dollars. My problem is, how can I be sure what it was worth on April 9th, 1974?” He replied: “If you will send us a letter giving it as your opinion, that the building was worth $80,000 or more on April 9th, 1974, there will be no tax payable and we will require no appraisal and nothing else.”",
"I thought, good Lord it can’t be true -- because, if so, what in the world have we been fighting in the House about for all these weeks and months? It has all been for nothing. No appraisal is needed. No tax to be paid. All we have to do when we are ready to sell property is write our own letters, saying the property was worth more on April 9th, 1974.",
"Well, I hung up and I thought to myself, I must have misheard."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. I do enjoy listening to the hon. member when he is posing these stories and telling us of his experiences, but really, I see no relationship between this story and section 19 of the bill."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"I was wondering that myself."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Well, I will tie it all together."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"If you can just relate it to section 19."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"What I was attempting to investigate, before I got sidetracked by Mr. Walker, was how in the world he would know whether I had made an agreement prior to April 9th, 1974, which is what this section is about -- at least the one I have got in this book, unless you have changed it. I did ask for another book and they brought me another, but this one looks very much the same.",
"In any case what I am trying to get through to the minister is: Mr. Walker said not to worry -- no tax payable, no appraisal necessary, no documentation necessary. All I have to do is send in a letter saying, in my opinion, my building was worth more than I am selling it for now.",
"The question I pose to the minister is: What are we doing? What is this all about? If we go back umpteen sections and several weeks ago, when we were asking: how are you going to know? -- you said, “You get a real estate agent to give an appraisal.”",
"Now apparently that has been abandoned too. All that is necessary now is that the man who is selling the property sends in a letter saying that his property really hasn’t gone up in value since April 9th, 1974.",
"Quite frankly, Mr. Chairman, I found this so extraordinary that I had my secretary actually phone back herself. She got another gentleman, and the same story. This second gentleman said, “We have been instructed that we are to accept a letter from the owner. If he gives us such a letter, we will give the certificate and there will be no tax.”",
"What are we doing here? What’s it all for if that is all you are doing?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Do you want an answer?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Yes, I would really like an answer."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Well we are completely off the point again because the hon. member is talking about establishment of value, not whether an agreement had been entered into or reached prior to April 10th, which is what section 19 is about.",
"But since he has asked the question, let me simply point out that between April 9, and this day, May 30, some seven weeks have passed. If we go on very much longer, we will not be able to accept that very elementary kind of support material for an alleged evaluation.",
"Quite clearly with the immediate reaction on the real estate market following the April 9 announcement -- indeed we hope that the effect on the market is something more than temporary -- there has not been, in our opinion, any across-the-board increase in valuations.",
"In any event, it is so close to April 9, with the elapsed time of seven or eight weeks, that it would not be reasonable to assume that at the time a contract was entered into, which is sometime between April 9 and now -- we are still seeing agreements that are being consummated now, and will be consummated for some time in the future, that were executed shortly after April 9, as well as those that were executed before it -- but in that general region they have established a general value and so there isn’t any problem as to confirming that there was an insignificant increment of increase between the date of April 9 and the date of the completion of the transaction by the registration of the documents.",
"So the staff have been instructed, as the hon. member for High Park has said, to accept a confirmation of this nature. But before very long we are certainly going to have to take the somewhat more sophisticated and --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. P. D. Lawlor (Lakeshore)",
"text": [
"Why should you bother? You know the prices are going to go down. They couldn’t possibly go up with this bill."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"-- complicated route of confirmation of the value, on or about April 9."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"I’m sorry, when did the minister say the change was going to take place?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"For one thing, when the bill is passed. Right now there is no legislation in place."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"The minister’s facts are wrong. I don’t know if he has seen today’s Financial Post --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Let’s get back to the point."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Order please. The discussion up to now has had nothing to do with section 19."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"I beg your pardon, it most certainly has. Well, let’s stop fighting and --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Order, please."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"We’ll be all through in three minutes if we don’t fight. Let’s not have another Tuesday."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Keep it on section 19, please."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Okay, I’m really trying very hard."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Which, if I may point out, deals with agreements which existed prior to April 9."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"But it deals with special kinds of agreements, Mr. Chairman."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"Those made before April 9."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Having to do with value at that time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"No, there’s nothing about value in there at all. It says --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"On a point of order, it has to do with agreements which fix values on dates --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"Prior to April 9."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"-- prior to April 9, or not later than April 9."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"And they’re excluded so you don’t have to worry about them."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"We sure do have to worry about them. We don’t know when they were made. How do we know whether they were made on April 9, 1973, or --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Order, please. The discussion up to now has had nothing to do with section 19."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"I can bring it up under 20 again if you’d rather, but I’m almost finished."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"It may be under 20, I don’t know."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Let me just very briefly end up by saying that if this is the reason he’s following that logic he’s wrong. Because according to today’s Financial Post, the prices have gone up. There are two averages used. One is LePage’s, which covers everything in Metropolitan Toronto. From April to May the average price went up from $42,240 to $45,095, according to LePage. The other figure, which comes from the multiple listing service, is similar: From $50,000 to $54,000. So it’s nine or 10 per cent. Maybe nothing."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"That isn’t nothing."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Well, that’s what you’re saying."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I am saying that there is no legislation in place and that I think it behoves us to get this legislation in place so that my staff can get on with taking a good look at some of these sales."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Is the minister saying that because the legislation is not in place as yet, it’s not in effect?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Of course it’s not in effect."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Then why are people already running around going through this nonsense of certificates?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Because we’re warning you, my friend, that when this is in effect it’ll be retroactive to April 9, that’s why."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"So, in effect, it’s not in effect, but it will be in effect as soon as it’s in effect, and it will affect us now, today, so it is in effect."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)",
"text": [
"Well, in effect, yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"In effect, it’s in effect. Let’s get back here. The whole thing is so ludicrous that we find, in each and every section that we go through, there’s a way for someone to avoid paying the tax. I forget what the figure was the hon. minister suggested is going to be collected this year."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"That’s $25 million"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Not $25 million? It will be closer to $2,500. If we look at section 19 now, specifically --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"So it is a success."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Not a success, it’s uncontrollable, it’s uncollectible First of all, the only people you can catch --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Order, please. Order, please. Side discussions are out of order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"I’m speaking through you, Mr. Chairman, to the hon. member for Kitchener."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Speak to section 19, please."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Okay. What section 19 does is to write a blank cheque for any speculator who wishes to speculate and not pay the tax. It’s the same old thing once again, an invitation to fraud.",
"Interjection by an hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Order, please."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"May I put a question through you, Mr. Chairman, to the member for Peterborough (Mr. Turner)? What are you going to do, use a handwriting expert or a paper expert to find a hole in the papers?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"If this goes on long enough, we can use --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"The minister may very well have to.",
"I am not sure whether the minister is serious about this bill actually preventing speculation of land or whether it is just public relations value. If it’s public relations value, if the minister will say so, I promise I won’t ever say another word on the bill. Ill never criticize you again because the honesty will overwhelm me."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"What was the member’s question?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"The question is does the minister really intend to try to collect any money under this bill? If he does, section 19 is a blank cheque to anybody who doesn’t want to pay the tax.",
"As late as 1992, they can come doddering in and say, “Many score years ago, I discussed with my friend, the member for Downsview (Mr. Singer), selling this property and we had come to the conclusion we were going to sell it for $1.8 million. In fact, I have a memorandum here, signed April 1, 1974, to that very effect.” And the government hasn’t any way of disproving it.",
"Anyone who pays this tax has to be quite simple, because the minister has given everybody a blank cheque. Anyone who owns property prior to April 9, 1974, needn’t pay that. The only people you can possibly hope to collect from are those who buy after April 9, 1974.",
"I suggest to the minister once again for the 94th time -- no, sorry, the 95th time -- that he has made an error in this bill. When he rose and said he was eliminating section 19, as he did a few minutes ago, he should have just sat down at the end of those words, and then he would have been in good shape. What the new section 19 does is completely negate the entire bill. I won’t belabour it. He knows I’m right and he’s sorry he can’t admit it here in the House, but we understand each other perfectly."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Does the motion carry?",
"Section 19 agreed to."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"On section 20, I believe the hon. minister has a series of amendments."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Perhaps, Mr. Chairman, we could have the amendments put and then we would all know just what we are supposedly going to be discussing."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Yes, Mr. Chairman, I would like to do that and then offer one or two comments before we get into section 20 of the bill. I move that sections 20, 21 and 22 of the bill be renumbered respectively as sections 23, 24 and 25 and that the following sections be added to the bill.",
"Then the following sections to which I make reference are section 20 as it presently appears in the bill, section 21 as it presently appears in the bill and then section 22, which does not appear in the bill as reprinted for the benefit of the committee but for which there should be copies available for you, Mr. Chairman, and all hon. members who would like to have them.",
"Section 22 then reads as follows:",
"Notwithstanding any other provision of this Act, where a transferor, who has not previously disposed of designated land exempt in whole or in part under this section, disposes of designated land that was his principal residence for a period of five consecutive years prior to his ceasing ordinarily to inhabit the designated land as his principal residence; and where at the time he ceased ordinarily to inhabit the designated land as his principal residence the transferor was 65 years of age or older; and where at the time of the disposition the transferor is ordinarily inhabiting as his principal residence premises that are not owned in whole or in part by him or his spouse or by both of them, the designated land so disposed of is exempt from the tax imposed by subsection 1 of section 2 to the extent that the designated land would have been exempt by virtue of clause (e) of section 4 had the transaction to dispose of the designated land at the time he ceased ordinarily to inhabit it as his principal residence and had clause (e) of section 4 then been applicable to the disposition.",
"Mr. Chairman I think I should ask you if you would like to put the motion first."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"We are prepared to take it as read by the minister, Mr. Chairman."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"I will just place the first part and then we’ll take the rest later.",
"Hon. Mr. Meen moves that sections 20, 21 and 22 of the bill be renumbered respectively as sections 23, 24 and 25 and that the following sections be added to the bill as printed."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, of course, we have not had really had much of an opportunity to look at the sections since the minister has just proposed them."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Would the minister be prepared to explain them?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"I think it might be helpful if the minister would give us his overview of the new sections that are being placed. I have before me a new section 22 but I don’t have a new section 20 or 21."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"They are in the bill."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"They are in the bill but renumbered."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"All right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Could you quickly tell us how the numbering scheme goes now?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Do you want me to repeat that?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"I’m a little lost here."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"From the original bill Mr. Meen moves that section 20 --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Which one are we looking at? Are we looking at the first printing, the second printing or what?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, for the benefit of all members, the complication was the renumbering of the sections that followed sections 20 and 21. In adding a new section, which 1 wanted to insert following section 21 as it stands in the reprinted bill, that displaced the other sections down by one number. The motion, therefore, had to include the references to the present section 22, which as the members know, is the section dealing with regulations and Lieutenant Governor’s orders in council.",
"The only difference is that the new section 22 -- which deals with our senior citizens and their principal place of residence, which they will note is for a period of five years prior to the time when they vacate the premises to take up rented accommodation, possibly with a daughter or a son or in a nursing home or wherever -- new section 22 then moves in above old section 22.",
"The other two sections, 20 and 21, are precisely as they appear in the bill as reprinted for the benefit of the committee. I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, we would deal with section 20 and then with section 21. This will give members who are more interested in section 22 to have a good look at it and let me have the benefit of their views at that time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"This is section 20 as it appears at the bottom of page 27?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Yes, Mr. Chairman."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The member for Riverdale."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"My first comment -- and I really ask this simply by way of explanation -- is that the tightness of subsection 1 of section 20 seems to me to be a matter of some concern with the use of that word “exclusively.” There are a substantial number of buildings which have living accommodation in them which would otherwise qualify but on lower floors or on the ground floor have stores of some kind or another in the building.",
"It does seem to me that it’s a little bit unreal only to grant this particular benefit to those properties that happen to be exclusively devoted to living accommodation. On a strict interpretation of the bill somebody might believe he is entitled to the benefit of these provisions and find that he isn’t so entitled. I’m not certain that I know exactly how to alleviate against that stringency but it is too stringent in my view."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The member for Waterloo North."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"On this section of the bill, I just want to make sure that I understand its implication properly. The way I interpret it, the bill means that in this new classification, investment property which would be a fourplex or a sixplex is rented so that the tenant uses it as his principal place of residence. If the part of the rental property is the principal place of residence and another part is commercial and industrial, it would be exempt under other sections of the bill from being designated land. But, as I understand the way this section deals with investment property, which is really housing units owned by someone other than the occupant of the house, it will be exempt if, over a progression of years, the tax becomes less and less after three years, so that each year up till 10 years there would be no tax apply to that particular property.",
"Now this theory is good in my view and in the view of our caucus. We thought that this principle should apply to other types of land and would solve the whole matter of designation. I think the basic premise we must return to is the difference between speculation and investment.",
"In my view and in the view of many in this caucus, speculation is when one buys with the idea of a quick turnover if the price is right. You might buy for a long-term investment, but if you have a sudden opportunity to make a huge profit by turning the land or apartment building or whatever it might be, over quickly, that would be speculation and not in the best interests of providing, adequate housing facilities at proper prices. To eliminate the driving up of costs in the housing field. I think the 10-year term is a reasonable length of time.",
"People who are buying residential property in multiple units, particularly in apartment buildings, are doing so as an investment. And without people entering the investment field in multiple unit housing, we are going to find that it would be very detrimental to the whole housing picture across the province. So this I think is a very acceptable solution to the problem which existed in the first bill, and we will support this section of the bill. I don’t know about the matter raised by the member for Riverdale; to me it doesn’t seem to be a problem because if it’s not exclusively residential and is commercial or industrial, it would be exempt under other sections of the bill."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mir. Renwick",
"text": [
"No, it works the other way."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The member for Lakeshore."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I take it, first of all as a matter of order, that we will be discussing the two subsections separately. I suppose we can discuss them together if we want, but I have quite different things to say on the two subsections, as has been the case throughout the bill.",
"On this particular one, the word to conjure with in the context is “exclusively”. If property is commercial then it’s outside your legislation. If it’s mixed though, that’s the warp and woof of the arguments from over here. Is there a principle, or ought there not to be a principle, whereby a prorating process would take place as between the commercial on one side of the fence and the residential on the other. Or if it’s mixed, does it fall, in your opinion, completely outside the purport of the legislation?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. I am sorry to interrupt the member, but I don’t think there’s a quorum."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Oh, for goodness’ sake. You and the member for High Park.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Clerk of the House",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, there are 18 members present.",
"Mr. Chairman ordered that the bells be rung for four minutes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Clerk of the House",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, there is a quorum present."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Thank you. I recognize the member for Lakeshore."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"I have pretty well made the point that I am concerned about in the first section. I just want to get on to the record exactly how the minister regards the mixed commercial-residential concept. Secondly, has he given any thought to a scheme of pro-rating within the ambit of that? I see nothing on that basis, although he has gone to some lengths elsewhere in the course of the bill, to set up provisions for pro-rating in diverse circumstances."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"The hon. member has raised an interesting point, Mr. Chairman. In section 1, subsection (d), I think it is -- no, I am sorry I have the wrong subsection -- section 4 subsection (d); excuse me -- it is on page 12 and we talk about predominantly tourist, commercial, industrial and so on. I have a notion that we might overcome the difficulty which I read in what the member for Riverdale and the member for Lakeshore have said about the use of “exclusively” here. I think that is a little stringent."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Yes, I agree."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"It might be that the word “predominantly” in there would overcome the problem. The two situations -- the industrial, commercial, tourist and so on on the one hand, and residential use on the other -- are mutually exclusive. They have to be. Presumably, if we use “predominantly” with respect to the one, we would overcome any problem if we use “predominantly” with respect to the other, namely rented accommodation ordinarily inhabited by the tenant."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Presumably; we are quite happy to move on --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Yes. On that basis I think we could consider it.",
"I might ask your guidance, Mr. Chairman. Do the hon. members wish to discuss subsection 2 to 20, while my advisers reflect on this a little more?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Is that satisfactory?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"And we might go back on to 20 subsection 1."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I would suggest we stand subsection 1 down for the moment."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"All right, we’ll call subsection 2 then."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"Just permit me a word or two so that my ruminations may get mixed up with their cerebrations, or vice versa.",
"I can see the use of “predominantly” in the context that you mentioned previously as to the designation of a tourist establishment. But I suggest that there could be very critical ambiguities in connection with that particular term in this context. That’s as much as I want to say about that at the moment.",
"It will have to be scouted very carefully, I suspect. I can’t give up a thing so easy as that. Again, I think the better path into virtue would be to try to segregate on the basis of that portion which is attributable to commercial over against the residential on some sort of formulae. It’s far more complex; I concede that. But I also think it goes more to the purpose -- instead of getting into equivocations arising out of the terminology like “predominantly.”",
"As to the second clause, what is the raison d’être or policy behind the three-year period? What’s in the minister’s mind as to why the three-tenths doesn’t begin tomorrow morning, so to speak, rather than the holding over this period of time?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"You mean one-tenth of the year, starting now."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"Yes, one-tenth of a year starting now; rather than the other. The design there must be to force individuals in this particular investment category, to stay off the market; to withhold their lands from the market until they can accumulate the benefits.",
"The second thing about it arises out of this first subsection. Again, when you’ve got the mixed concept -- and even if the word “predominantly” was there -- if they were going to be hit by the tax, wouldn’t it be in their interest to convert either in one direction or the other -- particularly if the other was as to the time running?",
"If time had run seven or eight years, and the seven-tenths have been picked up, would it not be in their interest to convert the residential -- I’m sorry. If it were an earlier time than that, after the first couple of years of this legislation, why wouldn’t one empty the place of tenants completely and turn to commercial and thus rid yourself of the burdens of this Act? The other way around, later on in the day, having accumulated certain tax benefits, then there may be a point to converting over into the area of the residential and excluding the commercial.",
"In other words, I want to rule out this back and forward play that could be involved in this. You are designing the legislation to promote particular business activities, particular orientations and uses of land in a certain way. With effective tax legislation of this kind, you are going to arrogate this particular economy into certain directions.",
"The second point that I made is the one that more crucially influences me -- namely, the business of simply emptying, getting rid of tenants, and turning buildings into commercial premises. Is there anything preventive of that? Or what strictures, limitations or otherwise has your legislation to prevent that?",
"Surely you’ll agree with me that that this would have the most undesirable social consequence -- the most undesirable possible. Because the legislation is designed to a point whether it be efficacious in this regard or not, awaits for the womb of the future -- but at the moment it’s designed to obtain more housing, to stimulate the housing market, to drop prices -- and all sort of thing. And that clause as it presently stands, seems to me, not very well designed to do so."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, that may be a possibility. I really have no idea whether a person with an apartment building who wanted to take advantage of the exemptions provided for commercial accommodation, would find it advantageous to convert his apartment suites, every one with kitchen and bathroom facilities, to commercial accommodation. I really don’t know. I would think that it would not be an economical thing to do when you consider that within three years, under the provision, the allowances for reduction in the amount of any speculative tax would have started to come into play."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"Would the minister permit a question?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Yes, certainly."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"I hadn’t that in mind so much. That is a bit obtruse. What I had in mind was the mix of residential and commercial, with residential suites above a whole series of stores, where the landlord says: “All right. I’ll put the whole works into offices,” and out go all those tenants"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"That’s the point I’m making, though"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"The apartment house example isn’t too good."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Take the case, though, where there are stores on the main floor and apartments above. I don’t know, but I would have supposed that it would wind up as pretty expensive commercial accommodation to convert those apartment suites for commercial purposes and, indeed, to establish that they were being used for commercial and not for predominantly residential accommodation as previously.",
"The hon. member also asked about the three-year term. That really was intended to stop the churning referred to by the member for Waterloo. There are various ways you can do it. You could say: “All right. Take 10 per cent of the amount of the tax off every year, diminishing over 10 years to zero from 50 per cent.” Really, I think it does have regard for the present picture, and I think that three years is a reasonable period. If the property is held as a genuine investment today, it’s not going to be too tough a task for the genuine investor to look at three years hence and say that from then on he will start realizing some reduction in the amount of tax he would have to pay on a speculative gain.",
"In the intervening three-year period there may or may not be any gain, so I don’t think the immediate effect would be adverse to any apartment owner. It was our feeling that the three-year term, to put it as I said at the beginning, would be effective in stopping churning."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Shall subsection 2 stand?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"On subsection 2?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"I would just like to make a couple of comments. I share the concern of my colleague, the member for Lakeshore. What the government is really doing is calling a halt for three years but then building in an acceptance of a 10 per cent rate of inflation in the value each year.",
"What bothers me here is what has bothered me throughout the bill. This is another example of the situation where you suddenly make everybody, no matter how long he’s held his property, you call everybody a speculator and stop him from selling. The person may have held an apartment building as an investment for several years -- indeed for many years in some cases -- but you’re suddenly saying to him: “No, you can’t sell it now for three more years.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Oh no. We’re not saying that. We’re saying that he may not sell it at a speculative profit."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"What you’re saying is that he cannot put it on to the market, because you then make him a speculator, even though, in any other characterization of that person in his ownership of that property, he could only be considered to be an investor.",
"You turn him into a speculator and prohibit him, for practical purposes, from selling at a 10 per cent rate each year, even though, three years from now, he can add the three-tenths of the value and one-tenth for every succeeding year. It seems to me to make very good sense to at least do what my colleague said: start the one-tenth running now and leave him free to sell it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"Why should anyone speculate on residential property?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"I’m talking about the fact that what this bill is doing is to make a speculator of everybody who is otherwise an investor in real property. I don’t think that is the intention of what we’re about. A speculator is a person who buys property and either before or shortly after closing the deal turns it over again.",
"The other point that seems to me to make sense -- I mean, mathematics is a pretty exact science -- is that you should be able to have the benefit of the proportionate part of the one-tenth, regardless of whether you hold it for the whole of a year. It seems to me that what you are saying to everybody is that unless you hold it for the whole of a subsequent year, you are not going to get the one-tenth that year. Well, if it’s sold half way through the year, presumably there is no reason why you can’t take one-twentieth. If he sells it a quarter of the way through the year there is no reason why he can’t take a fortieth. I don’t mean that you have to do it on a per diem basis, and make it work that way --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Where do you draw the line?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"I think quarterly is not a bad idea. One year is too long in order to earn the benefit."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"That might be. And we did, in the case of the farming allowance, work it back on a monthly basis. But I think for the present time, at least, on a yearly basis -- there would be no allowance for the next three years, we’ll have an opportunity to determine just what kind of credit adjustment might be worked out on a basis like that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Well, you’ve got three years."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"We’d have a little more time, yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"I hope the minister does take advantage of that opportunity to ensure that a proper balance is given to persons who may dispose of properties that come under this subsection.",
"There was some comment made earlier with respect to what we had felt would be a way of avoiding this entire matter. That of course would be to set a time limit generally on the ownership of all properties so that with the proper safeguards for persons who had to move or who had some particular reason for disposing of their buildings, we would be able to deal with the matter of speculation based on the length of time for which property was held.",
"The chairman will recall that we were going to propose an amendment with respect to this matter under section 2 earlier on, particularly dealing with the suggestion that a five-year term might have been satisfactory. A removal of the tax on the basis of 10 points of the 50 for each of the subsequent five years would have meant that after a 10-year holding of a property, there would, in fact, be no tax exigible.",
"We thought that this was worthwhile because it would be a way of dealing with all properties equally and further, it would be a way of allowing the person who has held the property for a substantial number of years to, in fact, balance the increase in value with the inflation that we all know, regrettably, is always taking place.",
"In the amendment that has now been brought in, Mr. Chairman -- in this series, which in fact deals under section 20 with the matter of investment property, we do commend the minister in the approach he has taken, particularly to have a three-year term, after which there is some relief against taxation.",
"Surely the people we want to penalize in this circumstance are those who purchase a property and, without any improvement, without any development, sell it after perhaps watching a crop of weeds grow, and make a large substantial profit from that sale. These are the ones who should be taxed in order to, hopefully, lower the eventual cost of accommodation on property.",
"I think that what the minister has done here in using a three-year term, is a beneficial start in ensuring that persons who are actually investing are going to be encouraged to invest in the knowledge that the property which they have no intention of disposing of in three or five or perhaps even 10 year is not going to be harmed, other than under some perhaps forced disposition that would occur before 10 years might pass.",
"There is one point that I might appreciate some clarification upon. It is my presumption that if a property has perhaps been owned for five or 10 years up until April 9, then of course if it were sold within the next three years it would acquire the possibility of taxation on whatever the 50 per cent value increase was over those subsequent three years. Presumably the minister, since he has agreed with my view, accepts the fact that we have to start somewhere and that persons who have held property for a length of time might well have benefitted substantially by increases in value up to April 9 so as to soften what might otherwise be a blow.",
"If that attitude is accepted -- as the minister nods his head and says it is -- then presumably those who are continuing to invest or who choose to invest and hold property for some years, are of course, going to have the advantage, which we properly think they should have, in acquiring and dealing with their property over a period of years so as not to have a tax attracted.",
"I think that the three-year term that the minister has suggested is a fair compromise and a good basic guideline by which to go. Anything less than that would appear certainly to raise the suggestion of speculation. Anything longer than that period of time might well raise the presumption of investment. In choosing this three-year term, we agree it is a satisfactory one so long as there are the safeguards which we all plan for in the reduction of tax so long as properties are held for a longer period of time.",
"We were all concerned that the earlier bill brought before us did not have the opportunity of dealing with this particular matter. We believe there are many persons in the province who have invested in properties with the desire to hold them over a period of years, to manage them and, of course, to use them as a hedge against inflation with, hopefully, a benefit eventually which might well match or be better than the rate of inflation to which we are all subject. We think those persons should be encouraged. They should be able to benefit in that choice of an investment just as others of us might choose to invest in some other security or in some other commodity.",
"I think, as a result, you have struck a good balance in this matter. The three-year term is a reasonable one and we approve that position which has been brought forward particularly in this section."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I would like to bring up one point in relation to this which, I must confess, I did not understand properly until the minister shook his head now.",
"A person buying an investment property now -- an apartment building -- is free of tax in 10 years. What is so different about a person who bought a property seven years ago and wants to sell it three years from now? He would not be free of tax on that particular property -- he might have held that property for 25 years as an investor. I don’t understand why “commencing April 10, 1974” should be in there. An investor who invested before your valuation day is no more a speculator than one who invests after your valuation day. In my view you brought a brand new thing into this discussion when you shook your head in the affirmative in answer to the question of the member for Kitchener.",
"I cannot see why this rule should not apply before as well as after your valuation day of April 9. Could the minister reply to that?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Certainly, Mr. Chairman. You have to recognize that it may well be that the person who bought his property 10 years ago, five years ago or two months ago was not a speculator. That may well be but how do you know?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"That is precisely the problem, so you make everybody a speculator."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"There was no land speculation tax. He may very well have been holding it simply to speculate or to churn or whatever, depending on -- you are looking at the subjective end of things."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"If he has had it for 10 years?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. D. M. Deacon (York Centre)",
"text": [
"Not churning in 10 years."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"We are allowing all capital appreciation up to that date but from then on it’s a new ball game. Don’t shake your head -- we have argued over this for hours and hours and hours. We have a new ball game beginning April 9 and from that time forward, investors and all others must look at these properties in a different light.",
"They either look at them as an investment or they look at them as a speculation. If they look at them in the light of speculation they must expect to pay some tax but they will pay tax only on the accretion in value after April 9. In this case, if we are going to look at people n-ow as investors, it is certainly true that the time should start from the time when we announced there would be a speculation tax.",
"In this case, this is a further exemption for a class of people who, we all recognize, can demonstrate they are investors. There is nothing to stop them from selling and if they sell at an increment in value over and above the April 9 value, they must recognize they are put in the category of owing some tax. A person may, after three years if he has held, start to derive the benefit of that abatement in the tax which the hon. members in the Liberal Party at any rate have indicated they support.",
"I think it is a reasonable period of time within which -- to use the colloquial -- weed out the speculator and the fast churn artist from the genuine investor in rental accommodation. That’s the reason for having it and that’s the reason for having it begin on April 9 and not sooner."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The member for Lakeshore."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, if I were so disposed to carry about in my briefcase a copy of “The Wealth of Nations -- all three volumes -- and in good Tory tradition and historical fact name myself Adam Smith I think my hair would turn slightly grey in the promotion of the section. While I support the section, I don’t think you should, being an heir and disciple to Adam -- not the original one, just the Smith one.",
"Has the minister considered the adverse economic effect and social effects? I think what happens in this particular context is that if you don’t adopt the one-tenth per annum, beginning now and flowing into the future -- a position which I’m personally advocating -- then you’re placing an unnatural constraint on the market. In effect, you’re holding properties, or forcing individuals to hold properties off that market and therefore the property is not being marketed. It has adverse economic effects in that way which are obvious to anyone who thinks about it.",
"There’s a fluid and free flow of the market mechanism itself not being able to operate. There would be no real incentive or no propulsion toward the lowering of the price if these are held in abeyance so to speak. It constricts the market. The demand continues to be there but, nevertheless, the supply has been diminished by reason of the legislation in this particular area.",
"You can’t help but have only one adverse effect and that is to drive prices up in this particular context. This is because of the availability of a kind of investment property that simply won’t come onto the market until three years hence. I trust you’ve really considered this restraint of trade feature of the legislation. The minister seems to indicate that he thought there wasn’t any such feature written into the thing, acting as a brake or as an impediment to the free flow of the market.",
"If you adopted my nostrum, then that wouldn’t be the implication. In effect, they would flow onto the market in a normal and usual way. As a matter of fact there might be some inducement to get them on the market as quickly as possible in the circumstances so that their incremental value wouldn’t alter. They would take the maximization of their benefits as they presently stand and have accumulated over the years.",
"That’s what you hoped was going to happen with respect to the legislation and, in part, has happened -- in the city of Toronto at least: a freeing up of property and a greater mobility in sales. This is particularly so in the case of those who want to unload, having held the property for a certain period of time, they feel they may as well pack up, pick up the swag and head for hinter parts. To have that happen was your inducement to the lowering of the prices. There has been a temporary reversal of the thing, according to the Financial Post.",
"This section is designed with directly adverse and contrary effect to the other effect that you sought to stimulate and place into being. Does not the minister see this? He may say, “That’s the price we have to pay for working what we consider certain equitable features into the investment property concept. We had nothing before. We’ve at least got this now. If it does happen to have this Holding restraint-on-trade aspect, that can’t be helped.” I say it can be helped if you do what I suggest."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"We don’t think that it’s going to create the kind of situation the hon. member for Lakeshore describes. I would say, though, that if it were clearly demonstrated to me that that situation arose and our economists concluded that that was the reason why it arose, we could change it. I’m not sure that going to a straight linear 10 per cent per annum abatement of the 50 per cent tax for every year the property is held after April 9 is going to accomplish that without having the concomitant effect of virtually permitting the churning to occur.",
"As soon as you start to reduce the amount of the 50 per cent tax relatable in a direct way to the period of time held, then you open the door to, say, churning after a year or so because then the taxpayer is only going to pay 45 per cent tax. Or, after two years he is only going to pay 40 per cent. Maybe it becomes worthwhile then to turn it over every couple of years."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"Then they start churning in 1977."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. Cassidy (Ottawa Centre)",
"text": [
"There is no difference there actually."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Okay, but he has held it for three years. Mind you, the three-year period is arbitrary and that is where we think there is a reasonable period of time he has had to hold it before he acquires anything by way of a credit against the 50 per cent.",
"Mr. Chairman, I don’t know whether there is any other debate on this section, but I have been advised by my advisers that my suggestion with respect to the alteration in sub-paragraph 1 of 20 is satisfactory. If hon. members would like I could make an appropriate amendment at this time to sub 1."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"That is an amendment to the amendment?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Yes. It would be an amendment to section 20 as it stands in the printed copy of the bill.",
"Hon. Mr. Meen moves that the word “exclusively” where the same appears in the fourth line of section 20, subsection 1, be replaced by the word “predominantly.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Is this sub-amendment agreed to?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I am not sure now whether we are going to be talking about sub 1 or sub 2 or both of them."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Talking about both."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"I regret that I missed the debate on the particular section. I am not sure whether that still satisfies the questions about the tests that have to be applied by a landlord to his tenant or occupant about ordinary habitation by that tenant or occupant.",
"The point that was made by the members for Lakeshore and for Riverdale, I believe related to the case where a property was partially commercial but mainly residential -- for example, a store with four or six units above it. There is a test that is involved in sub 1 here, though, in which a landlord has presumably got to ask each tenant who seeks to rent from him, “Do you intend to be ordinary inhabitants in this particular unit?” Should it be somebody who wishes to use the place for illicit purposes or a politician who needs a pied à terre in Ottawa and Toronto, but keeps an ordinary residence elsewhere -- don’t confuse those two by the way -- or let’s say it was an apartment which was being rented by a large corporation for the use of visiting executives when they come in from out of town, and that kind of thing, it could be that even with the change in the word “exclusively” to “predominantly” that a landlord could be hit under that particular section.",
"Some nitpicking bureaucrat in the Ministry of Revenue could say, “Look, we happen to have had a look at the four or five units in this converted old mansion that you hold and we found that in fact most of these units are not regularly occupied by the tenants but they are used for other purposes,” such as those that I have described. Maybe the minister could answer that question before we go on."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"We may have to issue some interpretations for the benefit of the taxpayers, Mr. Chairman, but I don’t anticipate any problem of that sort. Our assessment procedures designate these properties as either residential accommodation or business accommodation. The values of the assessment would be appropriate, I expect, in determining whether a building is predominantly for commercial purposes. If the stores in the building occupy several floors and perhaps there is a minor amount in which there is rental accommodation available in the form of apartment suites in the normal sense of that word, that building would be designated as a commercial building under the earlier definition which we talked about.",
"I don’t think the member for Ottawa Centre was in the House at that time. With this alteration then from “exclusively” to “predominantly” we picked up the other side, where we have the definition of an investment property.",
"Where the quarters are predominantly used for rental purposes, then the whole of that building would be determined as an investment property would not have the exclusive nature of the commercial elements in that building applicable to it. As it now stands, the whole of that building would be subject to the application of section 20(2)."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"I am a bit confused there. As I understand it, if a part of the building is commercial and a small part is residential, then it would be deemed to be entirely commercial and exempt from the tax. Is that correct?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Would you say that again?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"If most of the building is commercial but say a quarter of it is residential, then it is exempt?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Yes, that’s right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Now, if it’s about half commercial and half residential, do you then prorate and only take the tax against half of the value of the building? Or do you apply this rule? What would you do in that case?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"No, there is no provision for prorating, Mr. Chairman. I think the case where it fell on precisely a 50-50 basis in a total dollar-and-cents assessment figure would be a unique one -- well, awfully close to unique; I suppose it could happen. That’s not provided for in this instance. We might have to make a ruling in a case such as that. If that were so, I think I’d probably come down on the side of it being an investment property rather on the side of it being a commercial property, and let the taxpayer determine whether he has some other remedies available."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Let me take a factual situation. If I could, I would like to preface it by saying that I have suggested in this Legislature a number of times that the tax ought to be tougher than it is. But since you are putting in all sorts of exemptions, I am now concerned about inequities that are introduced into the Act by the way it has been drawn up.",
"It seems to me that to simply introduce the word “predominantly” -- and I apologize, because that was suggested by my friends to the right and to the left of me."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"It was agreed to."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Okay, but I don’t think I am nitpicking. If you have a 50 per cent rule, in which you say if it’s 50 per cent residential that is an investment property under this particular Act what happens in the case where the property is 50 per cent residential but one portion of it is occupied by the owner as his principal residence? What do you do in the case where the property is 49 per cent residential and 51 per cent commercial? You have a notch problem there, which is a pretty serious one; in one case, if it’s 51 per cent commercial, it is entirely exempt -- I am not sure if the minister is saying that, but that doesn’t make good sense --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Yes, it would be --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"-- while in the other case, if it is only 50 per cent commercial, then it goes over into this particular section. The third thing is that this can be a very real situation in a common kind of property found along the main streets of many of our cities -- shops with anywhere between two and four residential units over top of them. Because of the higher value of the shop property --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Oh, I don’t know about that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"-- the assessment will square off at about 50-50, residential and commercial. Can we get some more precision about where “predominantly” comes in?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I don’t know that I can give the hon. member any more precision on that. “Predominantly” means more than 50 per cent, in my interpretation at any rate. In the kind of illustration the hon. member has given, if one had a store on the ground floor, with apartments above -- certainly it’s a common instance -- I don’t know whether the assessment would be such that the store would be worth more by way of assessment. It might be worth more by way of income, and in that sense be worth more by way of assessment. I don’t know. Whether there was a precise balance between the two would be a matter of fact, and I would question whether it’s really something that should trouble us at this moment.",
"In any event, I have already indicated my view as to the course I would take were I called on to make some kind of determination. The apartments above quite possibly could be of greater value, if there were three or four of those, than the assessed value relatable to the commercial property on the ground floor. But I must say I don’t really know."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Okay. Let me just close this off by raising a practical problem. At present assessment, it may well be that the commercial value of a property is considered to be greater than the residential value of the flats that are upstairs --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Then it would be all commercial."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"By 1977, even at the rate that the ministry is going, we are assured that there is going to be market value assessment; and at that point the ratio could be reversed. Therefore, somebody who gets into a situation now because he thinks that it’s going to be tax exempt, could find that the rules are changed -- not because of anything he did and not because he wasn’t included, but simply because the assessments returned by the ministry changed the proportion from 51-49, to give a hypothetical example, to 49-51. That doesn’t make good sense."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"He is going to know well before that, of course, if it should happen. His assessment notice is being updated annually."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"All right. The member for Huron."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"If I can just raise one other point before I finish off, Mr. Chairman. Again on sections 1 and 2 --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"All right, if it is very brief."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"What is that? Well, it is not on the same point --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Order please. The member for Huron wished to introduce --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. Riddell (Huron)",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, if I may interrupt the speakers for a minute, I would like to draw to the attention of the members here the presence of a group of grade 7 and 8 students from the Seaforth Public School, under the supervision of Mr. Paul Carroll who is not only a teacher but a politician in his own right. I am sure that the members here would like to join with me in extending a welcome to this group of students and their teachers."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The member for Ottawa Centre."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Had I known the member for Huron’s business, I would have ceded much sooner, Mr. Chairman.",
"The other point I wanted to raise with the minister was in sub 2. It seems again that for a small owner of property that the sub 2 could have some quixotic effects. As I read it, a person who lives off and on in a property and at other times rents it out can either be exempt or can be hit by the tax in its full impact, depending on the timing of when he happens to live there and when he happens to sell.",
"If I can be specific, if they live there for three years and then rent it out for three years, then six years hence they have to sell it as an investment property and they are exempt to the tune of three-tenths of the tax. If they rent it for three years and then live there for three years or for two years, and then sell it, they are exempt from the tax --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Altogether."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"-- because it is a principal residence. If, however, they rent it for a couple of years, live there for a couple of years, and then rent it out for a couple of years, they get no exemption at all from the tax."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"That’s right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"I can tailor the examples, but I think the minister gets the point that I am making. What I would suggest is that the minister might consider in that kind of situation, in which there were the various alternating forms of ownership, that years during which the property is occupied as a principal residence would be deemed to be the same as years in which it is used as an investment property.",
"I think that is a reasonable kind of amendment. I don’t want to propose it because I have told my friends that I will propose no amendments during the Act. But it seems to me that that would get around that quixotic effect that the government would not want to have. The Act, I remind the House, is basically very badly drafted. But if you can make that improvement you can patch up a little way and apply a Band-Aid to a rather bad animal."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, that is an interesting observation. That could perhaps be taken care of in another fashion. If it is a practical sort of thing to do I’d like to give that a little bit of thought over the next few months. We could take a look at determining whether an amendment would be desirable or necessary at another time, possibly in the fall.",
"I can see the point the hon. member makes. I can picture for myself homes owned by employees of, say, large companies who take on contractual work around the province, or perhaps around Canada. The employee owns his home and doesn’t want to sell it when he has moved to take on some supervisory role, perhaps, in another city knowing that in a couple of years he is going to be back. So he signs a two-year lease, returns to take up residency again for a while, and then maybe discovers two years later, or three or whatever, that he is going to be moved to another site on another project of some sort or other.",
"I can imagine that there are instances in which the land of illustration made by the member for Ottawa Centre would apply, and to which some land of interpretation, either by way of regulation, or by way of amendment to the Act, might be appropriate.",
"But these are the kinds of refinements that I have talked about since the bill was introduced. We just couldn’t picture all these refinements in the initial stages when we had to draft the bill from scratch. Even this section is a new one, added with our subsequent eliminations during second reading. As a result of that debate, it was put in at the time when I introduced the bill in the committee stage. We couldn’t really have had a chance to have all these illustrations of cases brought to my attention. That is certainly one to which I will give some thought."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The Minister of Revenue has moved that the word “exclusively” be replaced by the word “predominantly” in the fourth line of subsection 20."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I presume the vote on his amendment would carry the complete section. Would it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"I think we will place this sub-amendment here first of all."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"All right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Those in favour of this word change --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Some hon. members",
"text": [
"Carried."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Would the hon. member prefer to come in on either subsection 1, or will it be on subsection 2?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"Yes, on subsection 2. I would like to return to the point, Mr. Chairman, that I was making a few minutes ago. The more I reflect on it, the more dangers I see in the one particular aspect.",
"As the title of the bill says, it’s a tax on certain lands and speculative transfers of land. And, when one sees the legislation as of April 9, one can then judge what type of buying or selling he is going to do as an investment or as a speculator. If a person buys raw land, he knows that unless he improves it, he is going to be classified and be subject to tax. If he buys a farm, he knows exactly what the conditions are. If he buys a residential property in which he wishes to reside, he knows where he is. If he buys an apartment building, he knows what the implications are and that he must hold it for 10 years.",
"Many of the amendments made in this bill -- in the next section, in particular, and the amendments in this section -- have been to correct situations which would have worked adversely toward residential property, and the provision of more residential property, which is in very great demand in the Province of Ontario.",
"We find here now that apartment buildings are only exempt from the speculation tax if they are held tor a complete period of 10 years. I cannot in any way see why the 10-year period should commence on valuation day of April 9. If we find that everyone else who buys land or apartment buildings now can predetermine what --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"He is not going to be convinced."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"Surely a person who has owned an apartment building for 10, 15 or 20 years cannot be put in a speculation class when he is dealing in residential property. The whole purpose of the bill is not to work adversely against the people who are providing housing in the Province of Ontario.",
"People who have been providing housing in new units bought as of now know that they must keep them for 10 years in order not to be classed as speculators",
"People who have already owned them for 10 years, 15 years or 20 years should not now be put in a speculation category. They should have already proved that they didn’t buy them to speculate. Mr. Chairman, if they wanted to speculate, they wouldn’t have owned them for 10 or 15 years. I think it is a very difficult position now for every apartment owner in the Province of Ontario, who has to reassess his position on investments he made many years ago.",
"Individuals who own a six-plex, a 12-plex or a 16-plex are going to have to decide on their future programmes. They are going to have to tell themselves, “I have owned this building for 20 years,” and ask themselves, “Can I maintain it for another 10 years to prove to the government that I’m not a speculator?”",
"I just don’t think this principle is right, Mr. Chairman. I would ask the minister to reconsider that particular aspect of the bill in relation to people who have owned apartment buildings for more than 10 years at the time this bill comes into effect."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Shall this motion carry?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"Can I have a reply?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I think the hon. member for Waterloo North must have had his hearing aid turned off when I answered him about 10 minutes ago on that very point, Mr. Chairman.",
"Section 20 agreed to.",
"On section 21:"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Section 21?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"Yes, 21. Section 21 as it appears in the new printing?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Yes, the newly amended section 21."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, this is the section which rectifies a condition which existed in the original bill dealing with the sale of lots by developers to small builders. Many of us received correspondence from people stating that this would have a very adverse effect on the development of lots for developers who didn’t want to be in the building business, and also for builders who didn’t want to be in the development business. As the bill previously stood, we found there was no provision unless lots of a registered plan of subdivision were improved to an extent which meant that the developer had to put a building on them before he could be exempt from the tax.",
"Now, we find that the provisions of this section, Mr. Chairman, allow the developer to enter into an agreement with an agreeing person or the purchaser that the purchaser will take the responsibility for the tax which will be applicable if that purchaser or builder does not meet certain conditions. The conditions are what I would like to speak about briefly.",
"The condition, Mr. Chairman, is that the purchaser must covenant to commence building within a nine-month period, to commence construction of buildings on 50 per cent of the lots and he must also agree in his covenant with the transferor that within 18 months he will commence building on all of the lots purchased at that particular time.",
"I can only relate how this applies to developers and builders in my own area, because I researched it rather thoroughly there. We have four or five large developers whose only business is to buy raw land, service it, get agreements of a subdivision from the provincial government, and build on very few of those lots themselves and sell the majority of these lots out to other builders. We have in the Twin City area four large builders and 66 small builders. These builders buy anywhere from three, four, five lots at a time, up to 30 or 40 and in some cases, and maybe 50 lots at a time.",
"I am told by these builders that the nine-month period during which they must commence construction on 50 per cent of the lots, and the 18 months in which they are given to commence construction on all of the lots, is not a long enough period of time in which to do it. They say their operation will be greatly affected because of the limiting length of time in which they have to start construction. Many outside factors affect the speed with which they can develop these lots. First and foremost, of course, Mr. Chairman, is the mortgage market -- how quickly they can obtain funds. Secondly, is the financial condition of the builder himself -- how, thinly he can spread his assets over five lots or. 10 lots, as the case may be -- and the size of the builder.",
"So we find that the builder has tied himself into an airtight agreement with the developer that if he doesn’t get buildings commenced on those lots by a certain date he is going to be responsible for all the tax accumulated under this bill as designated land from the time the original developer bought the land and serviced it right through until the time it would be finally sold.",
"The outside circumstances which affect the small builder are many and they are varied. And he, because of the very size of his business, is very directly and quickly affected by the supply of money for mortgages, the supply of credit for his own business and also by the supply of tradesmen available and the market itself.",
"I would respectfully ask, Mr. Chairman, that the minister consider extending these times to a minimum of one year and two years. This period of time was told to me as being the absolute minimum whereby a small builder could give a covenant that he could develop all the lots that he usually buys.",
"If we find that the builders are going to be limited to these relatively short periods of time then several things will happen. First, the builder will be very cautious in the number of lots that he will buy from the developer, naturally this will have a chain reaction and the developer will not seek subdivision plans of approval as quickly as he would if he could peddle his lots more quickly.",
"So a small builder, instead of buying 12 or 15 lots for his quota for the next year or 18 months, is maybe going to have to cut back to six or eight. This, of course, will have an adverse affect on the number of houses put on the market.",
"That, Mr. Chairman, is something I would like the minister to give very serious consideration to. Perhaps he has had representation as I have had on this point, and perhaps he has had an opportunity to talk to developers and small builders on this point. Mind you, it certainly is a great improvement over the way this situation was handled previously. I must commend the minister on working out what I think is an excellent alternative to the original bill but I do wish he would give consideration to the shortness of time in which this agreement must be met."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I understand what the hon. member is saying. I do know that some builder associations made representations to my ministry about the one- and two-year term -- this was before I introduced the amendment, actually; it was during the course of the debate on second reading -- they suggested the one- and two-year term for 50 per cent and for the balance of 50 per cent of the lots.",
"No one has come to me. It may be that others on my staff have had time to see and hear others who feel that the nine month and nine month proposal, as contained in section 21, is going to create too great a hardship. What I had sought to do here was to create a real incentive to get going with those houses. Nine months is a complete building season, by the advice that I have received. And so it seemed appropriate, at least for the current building season and for the one that follows, to have the nine month and nine month period, a total of 18 months. This gives two complete building seasons.",
"I have the feeling that the concern expressed by the hon. member for Waterloo -- I’m sure it is expressed in all good conscience and good faith -- I am confident that it will not be borne out in practice. If it should turn out that builders are so apprehensive that they do not undertake sufficient commitments to complete the numbers of houses they would ordinarily complete, then obviously this would be counter-productive.",
"I thank him for his commendation on the section. It is, I quite concede, a vast improvement over the provision which we had earlier. I and my staff had not realized the inherent counter-productive nature of the provisions as they originally stood, requiring that the developer build a structure of some sort on house lots before he could escape the speculation tax. As I interpret it and as my colleagues see it, this section should overcome this and we would hope and expect that it is not counter-productive. But I hear what the member is saying and I can tell him that if it turns out that, in fact he is right and that it does become counter-productive then we will have to take another look at it.",
"The builders who would be presently negotiating with developers for the lots for the current building season have the whole of this summer and have had the whole of this spring within which to set about making their other arrangements. This period of time since the increase in the Bank of Canada interest rate has been less than optimum from the standpoint of obtaining mortgage financing. I guess that is a masterpiece of understatement. If there is ever a problem that the builders face right now I suppose it is in obtaining mortgage commitments."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"And they are not going to buy lots."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I would think if I were a builder I would not want to commit myself to the purchase of a number of lots, whether this Act were in place or not, in the face of the current mortgage situation. If we can assume that the mortgage companies will be freeing up their loans or that things will stabilize in that area so that some confidence will return to that market and where the lending institutions will put out their monies again, then I think that is the major impediment in the way of the builders. If mortgage money frees up then they will be able to say “Okay. We can get on with this business. There is probably an adequate supply of building blocks and of concrete and of the necessary lumber and bricks and roofing materials and plumbing and whatnot.” That will encourage them to get on with the building.",
"If it should, however, turn out that as a consequence of these provisions they are still apprehensive to the extent of not getting into the activities at the same pace as in previous years, then I would have to take another look at these provisions of nine months and nine months."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, there are several points I think the minister missed. First of all, builders don’t work on a nine month building cycle. Most small builders keep their employees all year round and they are building all year round in one form or another. Either they are doing their finished carpentering or they get their foundations in, in the fall, and their framing up. Maybe they won’t always get brick until the following spring. But most of the 66 small builders that I am talking about in our area try to keep a programme going all through the year. It doesn’t work on a nine month basis.",
"Secondly, you don’t get a release of plans of subdivision at any particular time of the year -- the lots don’t come on the market in the spring, particularly. A developer gets a plan of subdivision approved and he has maybe 95 or 100 lots in one approval to dispose of to the builders. By practice he can say, “Okay this one takes so many, and that one takes so many.” They know who does the building in their subdivision.",
"Many times approvals have to be given by the developer of the area. There are strings attached by the developer as to what type of house will be allowed to be built in that particular area. What kind of alternate plans there can be on the street, left and right and what different types of finishing on the houses, so the street doesn’t look stereotyped. All this has to be worked out with the individual builder after the lot is sold. It is not as simple as the minister may think, Mr. Chairman. I have spoken to these people -- and I know many of them -- and they say that nine months is just too short a period and 18 months is too short a period especially when you put on a builder -- the agreeing person, as he is referred to in the bill -- the obligation to assume the tax that would be payable if the land were sold otherwise and not under this section.",
"When that builder buys those lots and sees that tax hanging over his head if he doesn’t get those 20 lots started within 18 months -- if he has bought 20 lots -- he is going to say, “I think I’ll only buy 12 and make sure rather than run the risk of being liable for the tax.” If he could hold on to them it would be all right. Mind you, if he goes to sell them and is speculating on them, sure, he should be subject to tax but if he has bought them as a legitimate builder as he has been doing for years and years in our area he should be all right. Goodness knows, a small builder can’t -- well, no one can -- get hold of any lots any more -- the minister must surely realize this -- unless you buy them through a large developer whose business it is to buy raw land and get registered plans of subdivision approved through the government.",
"I think, Mr. Chairman, the minister would be well advised to start off with a longer period if necessary and reduce it as the time goes by because I think you are going to find there will be an adverse effect. I m sorry I don’t have the figures of the number of homes being built to compare the four large developers, or the four large builders, and the 66 small builders.",
"I would think the 66 small builders are going to be more adversely affected by this than the large builders who have the financial capability of starting houses to a much greater extent than the 66 small builders. But I bet the 66 small builders make a tremendous contribution to the community in the number of houses they build.",
"I would certainly want the minister to give more serious consideration to prolonging this period of time so that we don’t jeopardize these small builders who have been doing such a great job in providing houses."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I can’t agree with the member more, in the sense of the contribution made by the small independent builders. The variety of home styles which occurs in subdivisions in which there has been a multitude of small builders is something we all enjoy. I don’t like those subdivisions which have been put together by one builder alone, or by one developer generally, and I think that kind of activity is certainly to be encouraged.",
"All I would see happening is that the builder who might take on a commitment for 50-100 lots, figuring if he doesn’t buy them this year or get a commitment from the developer to sell them to him this year, he might have to pay more for them next year and the year after that, is going to sit on them; in effect, he is speculating in those lots. Frequently these builders themselves will turn them over to somebody else at a little profit in a few months’ time.",
"He can’t do that in that fashion, though, under this. I am saying that this kind of provision will reduce the number of lots he takes on, at one time, to the number he can comfortably handle in that period of time. As long as he gets started during the nine months on the first half and gets started during the remaining nine months on the second half of the lots he has taken on, while he is working on the second part of that project he can be making a commitment with that developer or some other developer to take on some further lots in the normal rollover of inventory into finished houses and the sale of those houses.",
"I repeat to the member that if it should turn out that this is counter-productive, I’d have to take another look at it. I’d also say to him, though, that whereas he is suggesting one year and two years for this, and that I might want to cut that back sometime, I would suggest to him that it’s an awful lot easier for me to extend it than it is for me to cut it back. It would be better to start off with the nine months and nine months, than to start off with a year and two years and then discover that this was having no effect along the lines we are seeking to accomplish."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"The line the minister is seeking to accomplish, Mr. Chairman, in my view is to prevent the builders from speculating on the lots he buys; so that he will not resell them or he won’t sit on them to speculate. The bill prohibits him from reselling the lots without having to pay the tax so it’s just a matter of whether you give him another six months and ease the apprehension which he will have when he goes to buy those lots.",
"There are many things involved in getting development ready on all these lots. We have discussed it before and I personally feel that the minister is making a mistake by not extending this to at least one year and two years. However, I have made my arguments and the responsibility rests with the minister."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The member for Riverdale."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"I want to ask a couple of questions, if I may, of the minister. I am not going to go over and belabour what the member for Waterloo North has said so well about it and I don’t pretend to be an expert in this field but I do want to ask a couple of questions.",
"One of the questions which has been raised, apparently, is a legal matter, as to whether a site-plan agreement would qualify as a sub-division agreement under the wording of the clause.",
"The second question I would like to ask is -- what is the minister’s conception of the extent of servicing that would be required to satisfy section 21?",
"The third question -- what is the magic of the agreement under seal that, as I understand it, is provided in section 21?",
"My next question -- presumably there is going to have to be a very clear definition of the time of disposition and of the time of commencement of construction. Is this right?",
"And my last question is this -- presumably the special lien would claim priority over the purchase-money mortgage taken back by a developer or transferor on the sale of the building lots, even though it may not take priority over the mortgage by way of loan for the purpose of construction. Is this right?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I am sorry, would you repeat your questions, please?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Say that the developer-transferor sells the serviced lots to a builder-transferee, and takes back a mortgage, which is not a construction-money mortgage. And then the construction-money mortgage, of course, is used to construct the property and there are two mortgages involved. Would the special lien have priority over the construction-money mortgage and rank after it, but ahead of the mortgage taken back by the developer-transferor? Is that correct?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"The last question first, Mr. Chairman. That’s my interpretation of the way that would work, too.",
"The member asked about site-plan agreements. I don’t think they are specifically referred to in section 21(1), but I can tell you that it had been my general expectation that a site-plan agreement would at least be contemplated in all of this, even though it is not a plan of sub-division."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"I raise the question simply for the purpose of drawing it on to the record, so that perhaps the minister, when he is giving consideration to the types of agreement, can look at a site-plan agreement which after all, in many cases, is not within the general purview of what we normally understand as a sub-division agreement."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"That’s right, and yet in some areas the site-plan agreement can be far more important than the sub-division agreement, and I think we would want to spell that out in regulations --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"You would want to define the sub-division agreement, presumably?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Right. And the hon. member asked about sub-division agreements themselves, or what constituted suitable improvements -- the extent of servicing, I think was his term. It would be in substantial compliance with the sub-division agreement or the site-plan agreement, I suppose, in that sense. I don’t think there is going to be too much difficulty about establishing that.",
"He mentioned agreements under seal. I have always been a little mystified, really, as to just when a document has to be under seal and when it doesn’t. I think the Registry Act requires that documents be under seal in order to be registrable. I am a little hazy on that aspect of the law, I must confess, but that’s the reason why I would expect that reference to have been included in the section."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Shall the new section 21 then --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"The other questions were related to the importance of the definition of the time of commencement of construction --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Yes, I knew there was another question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"-- and the time of disposition."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"The time of disposition would be established under one of our early sections where we have: “deemed disposition or whatever has occurred that has created the disposition.”",
"“Disposition would include the sale, transfer, however effected, of any part of the beneficial interest, the sale, transfer, assignment of an option,” and so on, the entering into a lease and so on.”",
"I think it would be the date of that document as established under section 1(1)(d) where we get to definition of disposition.",
"Time of commencement is going to be something that we will have to determine by regulation or spell out. I think it is going to vary with the nature of the construction. I think, for example, in the construction of a conventional home -- I myself would say that construction had commenced when the hole was in the ground and perhaps footings were laid out --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"Suppose there is a cement strike for six months?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I am sorry, would the hon. member repeat that before the microphone."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"This is very important. As you know, many building materials have been in short supply. Right now, ready-mix cement is in very tight supply. This could very well delay construction for a month, six weeks, two months. This is the type of thing which also relates to the argument we were putting before."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Okay. But the prudent builder is not going to excavate the basement until he has got a commitment from the supplier of his concrete aggregate to provide the footings --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"That doesn’t mean a thing if he doesn’t get it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Mean",
"text": [
"-- and he is going to have a delivery date for his block and his floor joists and so on, so that is all part of his schedule.",
"I think at this stage I would assume that we will define commencement of construction as being when there is significant evidence of intent by the builder to begin construction by way of seeing a hole in the ground, footings poured and perhaps the basement in course of construction.",
"You see assessors in my ministry constantly around in the subdivisions because they want to pick up the supplementary assessments for the purposes of records in my ministry and for tax purposes for the municipality. They would be advised by the builder that he had begun construction on certain lots on certain streets and they would drop around and take a look and could confirm through my ministry -- then to him and his solicitor -- that the lien was thereby waived and any steps necessary to clear the tide for that purpose would then be taken.",
"I was going to say though, that there is another kind of problem which I envisage that concerns the subdivision for cottage lot purposes. I was advised when I was in Sault Ste. Marie a few weeks ago that the practice among many purchasers up there, where they have fairly expensive subdivisions for cottage purposes, is to buy a lot, go in and clear enough of an area to put up a tent perhaps, maybe enough of an area to burn brush, and then set about clearing the lot, burning all the brush, taking out trees as required to develop the site for the cottage. It may be a year or two years before that site is in a suitable state for even the placement of a single concrete pad at surface level.",
"I would mention to the hon. members that this is precisely the history of the construction of my own summer residence. After I took title, it took several years of clearing and camping on the site before I eventually began construction of the cottage building.",
"In that instance I think that our regulations, in order to be fair to these people, should be that commencement of construction will be deemed to have occurred when there is any evidence of intent by the purchaser to even start the clearing of a site. If you have an area for burning brush, that might well be adequate: evidence, to my mind, of the intent to begin construction so that the lien would be released at that point.",
"These are refinements in this area which I am going to have to work out in the ministry as soon as possible. I am sure there are going to be some people this summer who will want to be reassured that they don’t have to start construction of a cottage property that’s going to be their pride and joy over the years to come, within a nine-month period. That’s something I can assure you I’ll be giving immediate attention to."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Shall the amended section 21 carry?",
"Section 21 agreed to."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"There’s a new amendment to section 22. Has the minister placed this yet?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"No, Mr. Chairman, I don’t think I have any amendment to section 22, the new amended section 22. Section 22, as in the book, becomes 23 and that’s been moved. The new 22 is before the hon. members now."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"We’re content, Mr. Chairman, that it not be read since we have copies of the item."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Thank you. Shall this motion carry then?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mrs. M. Campbell (St. George)",
"text": [
"I would like to speak to this amendment, Mr. Chairman."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The member for St. George."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mrs. Campbell",
"text": [
"I am very much appreciative of the minister’s giving consideration to my concerns as expressed in my proposed amendment. Certainly in most areas this amendment goes beyond that which I had placed and for that I am very grateful.",
"There is only one area in which it limits what I had in mind and I would like some comment from the minister on this. I had referred to certain institutions and I would point out to the minister that under the present law, a persons who is 60 years of age and handicapped can be admitted to a home for the aged. That situation is not covered.",
"I recognize the difficulty in trying to incorporate all of these things into the amendment but I do feel obliged to point that particular problem out, in the hope that the minister could give some consideration to it. I did speak to his officials, asking that they might advise him before I rose to speak, of my concern in this particular area, so perhaps he is prepared to discuss it now?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, to begin with, may I observe that it was as a result of the observations made by the hon. member for St. George that I directed my thought to the plight, if we can call it that, of some of our senior citizens who have reached the stage where, for whatever reason, they have to vacate the family home they’ve held for a number of years? They hope some day to return to it, whether they’ve gone to a hospital or whether they’ve gone into a nursing home or whether they’ve gone to live with a daughter or son-in-law or whatever.",
"I felt, in this section, that age 65 was probably a reasonable place to start. One could drop that age, but in doing so, one starts to increase the number of potential abuses. I can’t imagine that there would be many anyway but there could be some.",
"I might say I also want to thank the hon. member for going to the trouble of speaking to my deputy and staff so that they were able to acquaint me with her concern, her further thought, on the 60-year-old who is crippled and, apparently under some circumstances, may be eligible for admission to a nursing home. The difficulty with that kind of thing, as I see it, is that it gets my staff and my ministry involved in assessment of certain criteria which are outside the purview of expertise that’s normally within, or supposed to be within, my ministry. We can ascertain the age of an owner but we would have to go beyond that to determine whether or not they were otherwise qualified to be in a nursing home and were age 60 and so on.",
"Therefore, I have some reluctance about adopting that course of action, at least at this time. We could give further consideration to doing this by regulation and maybe in some fashion I could develop a provision that would permit the 60-year-old to qualify if I had a certificate from the Ministry of Community and Social Services, or however that works, and I don’t know how that would work. But in some fashion that could confirm to us that the person qualified and was, in fact, a resident of a nursing home so as to permit the period to flow through. There may be a simple way to do it but this at least, I think, goes a long way toward accomplishing this end.",
"The couple whose children are grown and married and have flown the nest -- the couple who perhaps might like to come back to their home some day but for health reasons find it a little tough to keep the windows cleaned and the shrubs trimmed and the grass cut and all the rest of it, and rather hankered to go into an apartment for a while -- they might just like to have that base to return to some day if they find that they can’t stand the cliff-dwelling life.",
"There are some who do his. Having made the mistake of selling their homes they find to their despair they can no longer afford to go back into another home. Or maybe they wisely kept it and found that it was a good thing to which to return at a later time.",
"So I think we have accomplished most of this. I would thank the member for helping us to make a better bill out of this. I think we will try this for the next few months to see how it works, and we might just be able to incorporate something by way of regulation when I am able to direct my attention and my staff’s attention to it in the next few months."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The member for Waterloo North."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"I have a question on the amendment, Mr. Chairman. Would this apply where the house, if it was his principal residence, was not sold until after the death of the former owner? If the property is transferred on terms of a will, would this apply?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Yes, this would apply then, to deem that to be the principal residence of the then testator, and so there would be no tax."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Shall this new section 22 stand? Carried.",
"All right. Section 23 of the bill; that is, the new section 23 as renumbered, at the bottom of page 29. The member for Riverdale."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, again I am not going to labour it. I have expressed my views about some aspects of the bill before. I am particularly concerned about the provisions of the regulatory power in subsection 2. I have no comment on subsection 1."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Are there any comments on subsection 1 or can we dispose of that? The member for Kitchener."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I think that there are no particular problems with respect to subsection 1. We, of course, have generally viewed the provision of regulatory powers as one which should be jealously guarded by the Legislature. We feel that as much detail should be placed within a bill as is practical, and indeed possible, in order that the changes which regulations might develop from the manner in which the principle of the bill is discussed would be as small as possible. One presumes, though, that there is the necessity for various forms under this statute, perhaps more so than might be needed under other statutes that we have passed, and as a result we are prepared, with the caveats that I have given, to accept subsection 1."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Shall subsection 1 carry? Carried. Now did I understand there are comments on subsection 2?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, item (a) and item (k) are the ones which are of concern to me. Item (a) is one that we could not possibly tolerate in a taxing statute. To grant the government the power to exempt from tax “any designated land or class of designated land or exempting from tax any designated land with respect to which any disposition or class of disposition occurs,” is a grant to the government of the power to do whatever it wishes to do with respect to the application of this tax.",
"The elementary principle of the drafting of taxing statutes is to have the provisions with respect to the tax in the taxing Act, and not to provide for provisions under which, for practical purposes, the government can do as and when it wishes to do with the taxing bill. There is no principle upon which it can be justified, and if the minister calls in aid any other taxing statutes of the Province of Ontario, or elsewhere in Canada, to support what he is doing, I can assure him that it will be totally and completely irrelevant for the purposes of this particular section.",
"My comments, with the same respect, apply for the gradual relaxation of the taxing provisions set out in item (k), where the government would have the ability to pass regulations:",
"Providing for relaxing the strictness of this Act relative to the incidence of tax hereunder in special circumstances where, without such relaxation, inconvenience or hardship might result or the development of designated land might be impeded.",
"We are not prepared to permit that kind of leeway to the minister by way of regulation. The House will be in session for some considerable period of time now, throughout the month of June; we will be back in session, I understand, in September. If there are legitimate problems that would require amendments to the statute, then we should do it by way of amendment to the statute. But we are not prepared to countenance, for one single moment, the grant of those extensive powers. In line with the way in which we have dealt with this matter before, I assume we will deal seriatim with the items a through 1 of subsection 2 of section 23."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, subsection 2, section a, is a section which has no excuse, not only in any statute that comes before us, but particularly in a taxing statute.",
"The minister might just as well bring us a statute -- let him call it whatever he wants -- and all it needs is one section that says, the minister can levy in his discretion, or the Lieutenant Governor in Council, may make regulations taxing anybody for as much as they want any time they want. That, in effect, is what this kind of a regulatory provision allows. Let’s listen to the wording for a moment:",
"The Lieutenant Governor in Council may make regulations exempting from tax any designated land or class of designated land or exempting from tax any designated land with respect to which any disposition or class of disposition occurs.",
"So what the section really says is that no matter what else is in the statute, the Lieutenant Governor in Council may make regulations exempting anybody or any piece of land from the provisions of the statute. Now how, in all seriousness, in democratic Legislature, can a government ask for that kind of power?",
"It is an open invitation to lobbies and pressures -- and I am not suggesting that the application of that section will be a corrupt one, but the possibility of corruption, the imagination that corruption has taken place, the suggestion, will be coming forward at all times every time a regulation is passed, into this section.",
"One could ask: “Why was the land owned by ‘A’ exempted, when my land and the circumstances are exactly the same and is included?” What is the explanation? Maybe ‘A’ is a 17th cousin of the Treasurer. Probably being the 17th cousin, the Treasurer hasn’t spoken to him for a 100 years, anyway. But if somebody should work out a devious relationship, such as that one -- and there might have been some reason to exempt the 17th cousin White -- how in justice can there be a regulation passed by the Lieutenant Governor in Council taking that kind of action?",
"What is the logic? What is the sense in giving that wide, broad kind of regulatory power? It doesn’t relate at all to the provisions of the Act. It doesn’t set down any guidelines. The Lieutenant Governor in Council will act on the representations made to him by the Minister or Revenue. And as these things work, as I understand how they work, the recommendation of the responsible minister is usually accepted by his cabinet colleagues.",
"And the minister comes here and say: “Don’t worry. We have debated five weeks, and it is an imperfect Act, and it presents all sorts of difficulties. If we need changes, we will come back to you but in the meantime we need a clause drawn so broadly that we can exempt anybody we want at any time and for no reason from the tax we are intending to levy.”",
"Mr. Chairman, my colleagues and I can see no way in which we can support a clause drawn in the manner this one has been drawn. Without gilding the lily I think the clause speaks for itself without trying to extend this debate any further. I just state that we will not support this section and we will divide the House at the appropriate time in committee in relation to this subsection."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. J. White (Treasurer and Minister of Economics and Intergovernmental Affairs)",
"text": [
"What the hon. member has said may or may not be true and correct, sir. The fact of the matter is it would be absolutely impractical to delete this section. The workings of the legislation would be almost impossible without it. I draw your attention, sir, to the fact that the Income Tax Act of Canada was passed in 1910. The Act has never provided a definition of income for the very good reason that it is absolutely impossible to phrase a definition --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"First of all, it was passed in 1917 and it did contain a definition of income."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"-- so as to collect the appropriate taxes in accordance with the will and expressed wishes of Parliament."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"You are just in error. You are factually wrong."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"I remind you, sir, that a year ago we passed --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"He is fatuously wrong."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"-- the Parkway Belt Act, at which time the minister was empowered to exempt certain lands from that plan and, as a matter of fact, we have been called upon to accept that responsibility. The decision having been made, as enacted by order in council, the government accepts the responsibility for all those decisions and all those decisions are made public."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"This is unbelievable."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"I am not completely sure of my ground now, but I think you will find that the bill which was passed by this Legislature a few weeks ago, namely, the Land Transfer Tax Act, would have contained a similar provision. Certainly I know that the departmental Act of the Ministry of Revenue under what used to be section 9 enables the Minister of Revenue to forgive any tax, to forgive an interest, to forgive any penalty and to cancel any court sentences which have been applied under Ontario statutes.",
"The departmental Act itself has powers far broader than this one, powers which I think have never been objected to."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"It’s quite different. That is the exercise of --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"These are powers which are seen to be absolutely essential by my friend from Lakeshore and other knowledgeable members who are expert in taxation complexities. I do hope, sir, that the Legislature will see this provision --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"You just make me shudder when you go through this kind of contortion."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"-- in the context which I have mentioned and I hope that it will be retained within the statute."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"This is unbelievable. Mr. Chairman, first of all the Income Tax Act of Canada wasn’t passed in 1910. It was passed in 1917 with a predecessor Act in 1916. There was in that original Act a definition definition of income. It is a taxing statute that we are talking about. What provision there may have been for regulatory power under the Parkway Belt Act has no relationship whatsoever to the principles with respect to the levying of taxation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"And that was opposed, too."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"The fact that it is possible to forgive taxes under the financial Act of the Province of Ontario has no bearing whatsoever on the provision that we are talking about which is a grant to the government of a complete power to exempt any transaction from the imposition of this tax."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"That is published."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"I don’t care whether you publish it or not. A taxing statute is not designed to provide the government, as distinct from the assembly and the laws enacted by the assembly, with the power to exempt people from tax or transactions from tax.",
"When you say to me that you have to have this section, or the bill won’t work, then you finally admit the lesson of the whole debate that there is substantial concern throughout the province that the bill won’t work in any event."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"The lesson of the debate is that the opposition will do anything to pick up half a dozen votes no matter where they come from."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Oh, come on."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"This is quite ridiculous. For me to stand in this assembly and to have to listen to the Treasurer of this province use that kind of ridiculous argument shows that he has no conception of the principles of taxation in a democratic society -- none whatsoever.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"The taxes are supposed to be levied by the persons able to look at the statute. He doesn’t go and look at the regulations. He looks at the statute to find out whether he is or is not subject to the tax. I am sorry at seven minutes to 6 o’clock to get exercised about it, but it is just ridiculous to have you enter the debate this way."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"You complain when he doesn’t get into the debate, and you complain when he does."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The member for Lakeshore."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, we in the opposition --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"A mindless entry by the Treasurer into this debate at this 11th hour of the bill is just absolutely ridiculous."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"No wonder he needs you to take it through the House."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Are you sure you didn’t inconvenience yourself by coming in this afternoon?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"If I am not here, it is because --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"You should be here."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"-- I am working for the province and half the time seeing delegations sent to me by opposition members, so don’t tell me that. If you think I am loafing then you have another think coming.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"You broke your amendments."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"I will compare my number of hours of work to yours any old day of the week."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The member for Lakeshore."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"This is your bill and your mistake."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Order please. Order please.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The member for Lakeshore has the floor."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"-- efficacy on one side or the other, equally a waste of time, breath and noise.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"And you be careful, or I will come here tonight."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"That would be terrible. Don’t threaten us."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"Gentlemen, do we or do we not want to finish this bill?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"The Minister of Revenue must feel like wringing the Treasurer’s neck. You know you were doing very well."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The member for Lakeshore."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"With four divisions you would be home free."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I would like to put on the record that I welcome the entry of the Treasurer into this debate."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Yes. You would have welcomed it during the past five weeks, too, but he hasn’t been around."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Order please. The member for Lakeshore."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Let the record show that the Minister of Revenue is delighted with the interjections of the Treasurer in this debate at the 11th hour."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, we have seldom had to labour, particularly in the opposition, so long and so strenuously to extricate any minister from such a plenitude of folly."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"Don’t you want a speculative tax?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"Never have we been subjected to this sort of thing before. Having given you time and breathing space, here and there you have amended the Act rather plenitudinously -- I think that is the word. Since we have abused the drafting of the Act throughout, I want to tell him, in case his spirits are hurt, that section 21 is extremely well drafted. I was quite taken with that particular section in its niceties, in terms of phrase, et cetera."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"It is regrettable the draftsman is not here today."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"But what does offend me, and I am sure offends the human mind, if you could roll it all into one ball, is subsection (j). That didn’t strike me as a very normal --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"On a point of clarification, are we on all the subsections of section --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"First of all, since it is a special section, we should complete it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"But we are going to vote on subsection (a), as I understand it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"I understand it is subsection (a) we are dealing with at the present time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"Just subsection (a)?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Yes, please. Does the hon. member for Lakeshore have comments on subsection (a)? Does the hon. minister have a reply?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Yes, I have some observations to make on that subsection, Mr. Chairman, on a suggestion made by some of the hon. members opposite that it was a unique kind of section. The member for Downsview keeps talking about this being a taxing statute, and what an outrageous performance it is to have a subsection like subsection (a) of section 2.",
"Interjection by an hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I would draw to his attention the fact that I didn’t hear much argument when we talked about the Land Transfer Tax Act, and I am looking at section 18, subsection 2(a), and section 18 --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"The language is quite different. Now, let’s not fool anybody. The language is quite different."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I might just quote it. It says the Lieutenant Governor in Council may make regulations exempting from tax any person tendering for registration a class of conveyance, and so on -- and I might ask, any class of conveyance? --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"A class of conveyance."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"-- to which it is determined that this Act is not intended to apply on any conveyance to persons prescribed for the purpose of this clause."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Not intended to apply."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I suggest to the hon. members that the appropriate wording in subsection (a) of subsection 2 is essentially the same thing.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"We have analogous provisions in the Retail Sales Tax Act and the Gasoline Tax Act. Of course it is in every taxing statute."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Of course it is not."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I might just take a look at section 246 of the federal Income Tax Act, for example.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Order please. Order. The minister has the floor."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Look at the kind of provision the Income Tax Act of Canada has in section 246, subsection 1. It says:",
"Where the Treasury Board has decided that one of the main purposes for a transaction or transactions effected before or after the coming into force of this Act [How do you like that? “Before or after coming into effect” even?] was improper avoidance or reduction of taxes that might otherwise have been payable under this Act, the Income Tax Act or the Excess Profits Tax Act, 1940, the Treasury Board may give such directions as it considers appropriate to counteract the avoidance or reduction.",
"How about that for power, for goodness’ sake?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"We argued about that last night.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I am suggesting that here the hon. member for Downsview says you have to know what your tax liability is and look at the authority it gives the minister to tax. I say that’s not the case at all; the provisions for liability for tax are clear in other sections of this Act. This subsection gives authority to exempt from tax; not to apply a tax but rather to exempt from tax, or the attraction of a tax liability."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"We dealt with avoidance last night."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Order, please."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"It certainly is clear that over the next few months, when we are applying this tax, there may well be instances in which this kind of authority is necessary in order to avoid an unjust application of the tax. If that is so and if, in the wisdom of my cabinet colleagues who would approve this regulation as the Lieutenant Governor’s order in council, such order would be made, it would be published and it would be there for the scrutiny of all.",
"I recognize that it is broad in its power but I also say to the hon. members, through you, Mr. Chairman, it is an essential ingredient to the application of this Act, as my colleague, the Treasurer, so well put it a few minutes ago."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Shall subsection (a) then stand?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"No way."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"I think I am going to filibuster now until 6 o’clock."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Would you call it 6 o’clock?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"The one thing I really don’t want to do is to walk up and down these corridors from 6 to 7 o’clock while the Tories come in and I miss my dinner.",
"Would you call it 6 of the clock?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Will there be further discussion on other subsections of this bill?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Yes, there will be, because we have similar comments on them.",
"It being 6 o’clock, p.m., the House took recess."
]
}
] |
May 30, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-30/hansard-1
|
LAND PURCHASES IN HALDIMAND-NORFOLK
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. J. White (Treasurer and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, yesterday the suggestion was made to me that the documentary information relating to the average cost per acre, and the documentary evidence concerning the consortium’s expenses on the assembly might be made public, and I agreed to that suggestion.",
"My officials informed me today that in fairness to the individual concerned these figures should be aggregated, and Clarkson Gordon has been asked to do that. I will be tabling that information on Thursday."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. D. M. Deacon (York Centre)",
"text": [
"The Treasurer sure bailed them out."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. V. M. Singer (Downsview)",
"text": [
"I’m glad the Treasurer can consult Clarkson Gordon. Why doesn’t he get the Minister of Revenue (Mr. Meen) to consult them?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"We aren’t consulting them at all. What is the member talking about?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Clarkson Gordon, yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Oral questions. The hon. Leader of the Opposition."
]
}
] |
May 28, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-28/hansard-1
|
HOUSING PROGRAMMES
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon (Leader of the Opposition)",
"text": [
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’d like to ask the Minister of Housing if he can now announce to the House which municipalities and which developers have indicated formally to him or his ministry officials that they will participate in the housing action programme at either of the levels which had been announced over a number of weeks and which were collated in the presentation yesterday."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. S. B. Handleman (Minister of Housing)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, some developers have formally agreed and some municipalities have formally agreed. Our problem is to try to get developers and municipalities together with formal agreements. We certainly hope to have that. I expect to be making an announcement on that as soon as we possibly can. We don’t want to fragment the programme. There will be a number of announcements made at the same time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Supplementary: Would the minister confirm to the House that he has some formal agreements? Or is the rumour factual that none of the municipalities has accepted the housing action programme in its present form, because of the problems they foresee in coming under the jurisdiction of the programme the minister has enunciated?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"No, Mr. Speaker. Of course it would be a definition of what is a formal agreement. We had some resolutions of councils which have agreed in principle with the housing action programme. However, we will not sit down and sign formal agreements with municipalities until we have the developers in those particular municipalities also formally agreed. It will be a three-way arrangement. We must get all three parties to the table at the same time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)",
"text": [
"Supplementary: Could the minister indicate what stage they have reached in trying to get agreements between developers and municipalities on Ontario Housing Corp.? Are we within a week, within a month or within a year of getting one off the ground?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, we are within, I would say, 10 days to two weeks of having a number of formal agreements formally signed. As I’ve said before, I believe the municipalities should have the privilege of actually entering into the formal agreement first before it is announced anywhere else."
]
}
] |
May 28, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-28/hansard-1
|
HOUSING STARTS
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"I have a further question of the same minister, Mr. Speaker. Since his announcement yesterday indicated that about $680 million will be channelled from all levels of government into the housing programme here in this province, can he explain why we are going to achieve only the same number of starts if we achieve the optimistic goal that the minister has put before us? And can he explain why Mr. Kirkup, whom he frequently quotes when Mr. Kirkup tends to agree with him, has predicted there will be a 30 per cent decrease in these starts in spite of the minister’s best but ineffectual efforts?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I would like to enter into a pact with the Leader of the Opposition: If he won’t quote Mr. Kirkup I won’t quote Mr. Kirkup."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"I find him more quotable this week than he was last."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"We can quote Mr. Kirkup on almost anything and sometimes those questions are diametrically opposed to each other. All I can say on Mr. Kirkup’s most recent statement --",
"Interjection by an hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"-- is that obviously he didn’t take into account this massive intervention by governments at all levels in the housing market. Any forecast he might be making with regard to starts completely ignores the massively increased government intervention in the housing programmes of Ontario."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"A supplementary: Since there are these large numbers of dollars actually directed by this ministry, how can the minister justify the small allocation to those groups in the lower income levels of our community, since the minister’s own statement indicates a very large share -- the lion’s share by far -- is going to the moderate and upper income levels?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"By the minister’s definition."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Surely there has to be a statement of policy from the minister or the Premier (Mr. Davis) to justify what is essentially an unacceptable concept in that regard?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I don’t accept for one minute that the government intervention in Ontario is not directed at the lower and moderate income groups. In fact all of it is. We are more than tripling the total government intervention in terms of output over last year --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"In comparison with the total thrust it is a very small proportion."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"-- and more than doubling the amount of intervention for the low income group."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"A supplementary: At what point is the minister going to recognize that the middle income in Ontario is not $14,000 to $20,000? The middle income is somewhere between $8,000 and $10,000. When is the minister going to gear a programme which will satisfy the needs of the 60 per cent of the population which falls within the income groups of $6,000 to $10,000?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"The member’s own leader used the figure of 60 per cent below the figure of $14,500 and that is what our programme is geared to."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"It isn’t!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Certainly all of our programmes are geared to what we consider to be the low and moderate income groups. I haven’t used the words middle income group, the member used that term."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"All right, moderate income."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"The average income in Ontario is approximately $11,000 and that fits right into the group we are trying to serve with our programmes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"A supplementary: Surely --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The member for St. George."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. A. Renwick (Riverdale)",
"text": [
"What is the median average?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Eighty-seven hundred."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mrs. M. Campbell (St. George)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, to the minister, in the provision of low income housing units I understand that 2,000 units of public housing are to be provided in 1974. Is that a misprint? Is that just for Metropolitan Toronto or is it for the whole province?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I would like to sit down with the member -- I will probably have that opportunity during the examination of my estimates -- because the figure of 2,000 she attributes to low income housing is simply incorrect. If she will look at page 40 of the statement yesterday, she will see the figure of 2,000; then there is community sponsored housing, rent supplements and senior citizens’ housing, all of which fits into the low income group."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mrs. Campbell",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, excuse me, but on that point, I asked specifically about the 2,000 units of public housing. I was not talking about 500 units of integrated housing, 500 of community housing or the rent supplements. Is it a fact that 2,000 units of public housing is what is provided, and is that for Metropolitan Toronto or is it for the province?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, there are considerably more than 2,000 units on page 40; if the member will simply examine them there are well over 2,000. Without adding up the figures, because I don’t want to play the numbers game --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)",
"text": [
"For the whole province?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"-- there would be at least 19,000 units this year in which the Province of Ontario will have direct intervention and full financing."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. E. Bullbrook (Sarnia)",
"text": [
"That is not what the member asked."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mrs. Campbell",
"text": [
"That is not what I asked. The minister can never answer a simple question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The Leader of the Opposition."
]
}
] |
May 28, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-28/hansard-1
|
POLICE RAID ON HOTEL
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"I have a question of the Solicitor General, now that further information is available on the police raids at the Landmark Motor Inn in Fort Erie. Is he prepared to order an inquiry by a judge or by the Ontario Police Commission into the circumstances of the raid that was brought to the attention of the House yesterday by my colleague, the member for Downsview; and further to that is he prepared to direct the police forces of the province, in his capacity I presume as the chief enforcement officer, as to the acceptable procedures that must be followed in circumstances so that such a matter will not reoccur?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. G. A. Kerr (Solicitor General)",
"text": [
"First of all, Mr. Speaker, complete information has not been received by either myself or the Ontario Police Commission as far as this particular raid is concerned. There is some information in today’s newspaper. There still isn’t enough information as to why the raid was conducted; or what cause or reasonable and probable cause or grounds existed to conduct that raid, and other information as to why a raid of this size was conducted on this particular motel.",
"I have asked for a full report. I expect, as I said yesterday, to have that this week. My preliminary information is that there were previous occasions when this particular facility did have people trafficking or using drugs of various kinds --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Did they arrest them? Convict them?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"Were there convictions?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"This whole area along this part of the peninsula, where people cross the border from New York State, is an area that is of some concern from the point of trafficking in drugs. So my preliminary information, Mr. Speaker --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"That John Clement is a bad fellow, he comes from the Niagara Peninsula, he should not have been let in the House."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"-- is that a raid was justified. Whether a raid of that size was justified is something that I will find out.",
"I will also find out whether or not -- as reported in today’s papers -- there was a misuse of police power in any respect as far as the search was concerned. Now the police had a warrant. They had every reason, I understand, to suspect there were drugs within that particular motel, and, therefore, that suspicion would justify the raid."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. A. J. Roy (Ottawa East)",
"text": [
"Terrible, terrible. Drugs!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"The police searched 150 people."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Supplementary: Since there is such a great deal of public concern over this matter, would the minister not agree there must be a public inquiry, rather than just something emanating from his own office?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I don’t agree there is a great deal of public concern."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"There is though."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"There certainly is."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"The fact is, Mr. Speaker, that this matter was raised yesterday -- which is about two weeks after the raid took place."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"That’s right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"None of the people who were involved or searched by the police complained in any way to either the police --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Oh come on."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"-- to the OPC or to myself, or any of the local municipal councils in the area."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"What started the minister’s investigation?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"So what one reads in today’s paper doesn’t necessarily reflect public concern. There is a great deal of public concern about the use and trafficking of drugs in this province."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, by way of supplementary --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Wentworth."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Supplementary, if I may, Mr. Speaker. Doesn’t the Solicitor General find it odd that the deputy police chief of the area would have no prior knowledge of the raid, wouldn’t have read the report of the raid and would have claimed at the point of the interview -- which I assume was within the last two or three days -- that he hadn’t yet acquainted himself with the details? And can the Solicitor General inform the House as to who it was that issued the warrant permitting this kind of raid to take place?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"As far as the latter part of the question is concerned, Mr. Speaker, that’s the type of information I have asked for."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Well surely that is simple --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"Now as far as the deputy chief of police is concerned, I can understand that he probably wouldn’t be aware of this particular raid."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Wouldn’t be aware?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"If it was conducted by a particular squad within the regional police force in conjunction with the RCMP, this is a fairly common occurrence in that area; not necessarily of that size."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Fifty men?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"But there are raids conducted on public premises quite frequently in the area of the Niagara Peninsula."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"With 60 policemen?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"Not of that size; I will agree."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"No, of course not."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Surely a raid of that magnitude would have required some authority."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"Another point I should make is it would appear that the raid was abortive."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"It must have been a common occurrence."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Yes. It happens every day in the Niagara Peninsula."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"It wasn’t that successful, shall we say, from the police point of view. Because there wasn’t this publicity and because there were no complaints by the people at that point --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"What started the minister investigating if there were no complaints?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"What about the deputy?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"-- it is quite possible that the deputy chief wouldn’t know."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"By way of supplementary, Mr. Speaker, could the Solicitor General tell us why he started to investigate if there were no complaints? And does he not believe that the time is now here when there should be some system of dealing with police complaints, other than by having the deputy chief, who doesn’t read his reports, or the judge who’s on the police commission, who said he never heard anything about it, pretend ignorance? Isn’t it about time there was some public presence into the inquiries relating to arbitrary police actions?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"Again, Mr. Speaker, I don’t agree there were arbitrary police actions."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Oh come on!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"The hon. member really hasn’t any more information than I have, and he shouldn’t make that statement."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. T. P. Reid (Rainy River)",
"text": [
"We’ve got to have more than the minister has."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"It’s just an ordinary every day event where they strip 150 people and search them!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"I was aware as a result of a very small item in a local newspaper -- I think it was a weekly -- in the area where this raid was conducted. It really didn’t say very much; it just indicated the place of the raid and who conducted it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"It only took the Globe and the Star a few hours to get many more details than the Solicitor General has been able to get in a few weeks."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"That was this week. The hon. member is talking about this week."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"The minister’s investigations are not very good."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"I think it’s rather significant that it took 10 days or two weeks before this matter reached this Legislature, or before there was any public comment."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"The only reason the minister is looking at it now is because it reached the Legislature."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"No, I was aware of it and I asked for this report. I was told I would have to wait 10 days, but I had indicated I was not waiting 10 days for a report.",
"I would ask that the House wait until I have a full report before hon. members ask for any kind of inquiry, judicial or otherwise."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Get the Globe and the Star and their reporters; they can inform the minister more quickly."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"There have been five supplementaries which is reasonable.",
"The hon. Leader of the Opposition."
]
}
] |
May 28, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-28/hansard-1
|
USE OF STOL AIRCRAFT
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Could I ask the Premier, Mr. Speaker, if he can announce to the House the policy of the government on the utilization of STOL aircraft, now that the government of Canada has bought de Havilland?",
"Also, since the special committee convened by the Ministry of Transportation and Communications, meeting in secret, is apparently considering a recommendation for two island airports, one of which would use STOL facilities, is this a part of the overall transportation concept that the Premier enjoys so much putting forward in grandiose terms?",
"Before I sit down I would also like to ask him if he can determine, from his colleague, the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. Rhodes) or some other source, why the minutes of the secret meetings that finally were received by my office were substantially different from the minutes received by the members of the committee itself? In other words, the minutes themselves had been edited and doctored to remove specific pieces of information."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. G. Davis (Premier)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I haven’t seen any minutes so I can’t answer that question.",
"As the question relates to the use of STOL aircraft, the government has encouraged this as a possible area, particularly for the federal government of Canada. I won’t comment on the acquisition of de Havilland and Canadair -- I might be provoked into commenting -- other than to say --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Go ahead and comment."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"-- that I seriously hope the government will continue the development of this kind of potential transportation.",
"As the question relates to any minutes, Mr. Speaker, I’m not aware of any minutes. I haven’t seen any. I haven’t seen any report."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"A supplementary: I would like to ask the Premier further about the technological information, through the auspices of the Ministry of Transportation and Communications, recommending two airports. Would he accept his responsibility to see that the transportation studies, and presumably the environmental studies, and the communications with the planning authorities of Metropolitan Toronto and the city of Toronto, are tabled in the Legislature so that we, as members of the Legislature and of the community involved, know what progress has been made and what the policy of the government is in this regard?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I think it’s very appropriate to point out that there may be some reports, there may be some discussions. There has been no determination by government as to its policy with respect to the development or non-development of other airport facilities. I want to make it abundantly clear to the members of the House on all sides that there has been no such determination. Any observations by the research critic or the research analyst for the Liberal Party of the Province of Ontario saying that there is an eleventh-hour situation are just totally ridiculous. It has not come to government in terms of any recommendations or any reports, and I want to make that abundantly clear."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"A supplementary: Is the Premier prepared to be critical of those representatives of the council of Toronto, who were also active on that committee and who have expressed their dismay as well that the government programme has gone so far forward without adequate involvement of the community on a public basis?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I am not prepared to be critical of any representatives from Toronto or Metropolitan Toronto with respect to this issue whatsoever, but I do think it is questionable that somebody who is titled the research analyst, or whatever term that is, of the Liberal Party of the Province of Ontario, endeavours to create the impression that there has been a decision, or very close to it -- the eleventh hour, I think, is the terminology -- and I just say to the Leader of the Opposition that it is factually not correct."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Wentworth."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"A supplementary: Can the Premier indicate what factually then is correct? Is the government of Ontario actively working with the federal government to make a proposal for the development of a second airport on the island properties?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mrs. Campbell",
"text": [
"Two airports?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"A second airport on the island properties.",
"Secondly, if that is --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member should ask only one supplementary at a time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Transportation and Communications I am sure will be delighted to deal with this issue on Thursday. He is at a ministers’ conference at this precise moment.",
"I would say to the hon. member for Wentworth there has been no determination with respect to government policy as it relates to a second, third or fifth airport."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. E. Sargent (Huron-Bruce)",
"text": [
"He doesn’t know."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"I think it is fair to state, Mr. Speaker --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"He admits he doesn’t know."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"What does the member know?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"-- and I would like to think others would support this, that if there is some new technology or new ability available for us for the utilization of new types of aircraft for the transportation of people that will solve problems, that we would all have sufficiently open minds that we would be prepared to move ahead with such a programme."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"The Premier’s solutions don’t seem to be very effective."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"What I say to the hon. members, Mr. Speaker, is that there has been no such determination here."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for York Centre."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"Would the Premier not agree that perhaps openness of hearings at this time, where the need can be divulged and the details and the facts can be made available to the public, would perhaps lead to a more constructive public attitude toward fulfilling that need?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I think I would agree with the hon. member to this extent, that if there is some thought and some serious proposal as it relates to another facility for the landing of STOL aircraft or others, certainly there would have to be public involvement and public discussion.",
"I would only say to the hon. member for York Centre that we haven’t reached that point, and I don’t know that we ever will as it relates to the island. I think it is fair to state, and I am really hopeful that the federal government will show some very genuine initiative with respect to this, not only as it relates to transportation here but the potential export market that exists.",
"I think we are just two or three years late in doing this, very frankly. I think it is something the federal government, with their involvement in the aircraft industry, should have rationalized several years ago. I make no bones about it.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order. The hon. member for Wentworth wanted to ask a second supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Well, I tell the Leader of the Opposition, if the Liberal government of the day had built the Jetliner instead of the Arrow we would be much better off."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"It got cut off."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"That was Diefenbaker that cut it off."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order. Did the hon. Leader of the Opposition have a supplementary?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"It was C. D. Howe."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Oh come on."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"The Premier has a poor sense of history."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order. If not, the hon. member for Grey-Bruce has a supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. F. Foulds (Port Arthur)",
"text": [
"It was “C. D.” Diefenbaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"The man who stopped the Jetliner? The member is wrong."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Grey-Bruce has a supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"Has the Premier flown over to see what is going on down there? They are building it now, does he know that?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I am always pleased to hear information from the hon. member for Grey-Bruce; he is so well informed on all these major issues. Yes, I have -- perhaps not as often as he has -- flown over that area. Although not an expert, I would still question from what I have seen that anyone is building an airport."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. Leader of the Opposition?"
]
}
] |
May 28, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-28/hansard-1
|
PARK NEAR KOMOKA
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Just briefly, can the Minister of Government Services tell us whether the Komoka properties have now been expropriated; and if so, what is the cost of the properties that were missed out in the acquisition of the parklands in Komoka?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. J. W. Snow (Minister of Government Services)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the answer to the first part of the question is yes; and of course the matter of the costs of the properties will in due course, I would expect, be determined by the land compensation board."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"A supplementary: Is there any indication from the minister of what it will cost the taxpayers because the minister and his colleague, the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Bernier), somehow missed out on that property when they acquired the park site?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Snow",
"text": [
"I presume again, Mr. Speaker, that the Leader of the Opposition is referring to the plan of subdivision of 15 lots. I’m not sure this was missed out in any development or in any plan for the park."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Were the minister and his colleagues leaving it to the others to get that property lined up?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Snow",
"text": [
"It was an approved plan of subdivision, approved prior to the announcement of the overall boundaries of the park. My ministry carried out negotiations with the owners of that particular land. We were not successful in obtaining the purchase of the land at the appraised value and we have since proceeded to expropriate."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Does the Leader of the Opposition have further questions?",
"The hon. member for Wentworth."
]
}
] |
May 28, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-28/hansard-1
|
GASOLINE PRICES
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question of the Premier. Does the Premier feel, now that the gasoline price situation has stabilized and it’s clear to all of us that tremendous additional costs will have to be borne by Ontario residents, that it might be appropriate that he indicate government policy with regard to some form of subsidy or cushioning action by this government with regard to the tremendous costs which will have to be borne?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"I think it is fair to state --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Let him tell us he won’t make any more mistakes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"-- we have discussed this issue on a number of occasions and, as I have said before -- and I believe the provincial Treasurer has said -- we do not contemplate reducing our gasoline tax as it relates to the sale of gasoline in this province."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"Let the federal government knock off its tax. It created the problem."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Who made the mistake?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Let me ask the Premier this supplementary question: Given that the Treasurer believes the federal government should knock off its tax how can the Premier come to the conclusion that --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"Let the federal government knock it off."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"-- if it is proper for the federal government to reduce its tax it’s improper for the provincial government to do likewise in order to ease the cost on the consumers in Ontario?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"I think the answer to that is very simple, Mr. Speaker. If the member for Wentworth would study it very carefully he would recognize the federal government, through the export tax, is the recipient of substantially increased revenues. Some of these revenues are now being used by our sister provinces with the programme of subsidization and I think it has to be national if it’s to be done on that basis."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"I have a question of the Attorney General, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"He has to be here."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Now that he’s here."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"He is here."
]
}
] |
May 28, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-28/hansard-1
|
COMMENTS BY JUDGE DNIEPER
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"It certainly is a pleasure to see him. Does the Attorney General concur with the views of Judge Dnieper who stated yesterday that moral law is the most dangerous law in the world? Further, does he agree with the views of Judge Dnieper that moral law was the basis for Nazi persecution of the Jews, when he found three clergymen guilty, of trespassing I believe it was, when picketing at Dominion Stores in Metropolitan Toronto?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"The minister doesn’t know anything about morals."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. R. Welch (Provincial Secretary for Justice and Attorney General)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I don’t think it would be proper for the Attorney General to comment on a summary --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"I think it would be very proper."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"-- of comments which has appeared in the press. I would make it my business to take a look at the statement in its entirety."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"A supplementary: In the event that the Attorney General finds the comments as reported in the press are reasonably accurate, will the Attorney General offer the benefit of his offices to those clergymen in order that they might properly prepare an appeal against this outlandish and ridiculous decision and statement?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"The minister can tell him he will talk to the policy secretary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I am sure the clergy would have access to legal advice as to what their rights are by way of appealing the conviction referred to."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Has the minister discussed it with his pastor?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. P. D. Lawlor (Lakeshore)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, a supplementary: Would the Attorney General consider amending the anachronistic provisions of the Petty Trespass Act, which was designed to protect private homes, etc., in a period long before shopping malls and such commercial outlets as Dominion Stores came into being in this province?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"Is the member asking the Attorney General if he would amend the law to exclude commercial properties?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"Would he give consideration to it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"He is asking whether the minister would amend it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"Pardon?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"Would he amend it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"I would be glad to take a look at that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The member for Wentworth."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"I have a question of the Premier."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"The Attorney General can leave now."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. Shulman (High Park)",
"text": [
"If only all the ministers were as smart as he is."
]
}
] |
May 28, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-28/hansard-1
|
WORKMEN’S COMPENSATION BOARD PENSIONS
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Yesterday, the Minister of Labour (Mr. Guindon) indicated that it was now a matter of government policy, and in the hands of cabinet, to determine whether there would be amendments to the Workmen’s Compensation Act pertaining to benefits to widows and workers on full pension. Is it the intention of the government to bring forward recommendations which will meet the rising cost of living for all of those people and to ensure that what little they got previously will be increased so as to be sufficient in the future to meet their needs?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, in answer to that long editorialized question, government policy in this area will be announced in due course.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Supplementary: To be announced in due course is fine, but for six months now the Minister of Labour has been indicating there would be changes. Will there be changes during the current session of this Legislature in order to meet what are extraordinary costs imposed upon recipients of benefits from the Workmen’s Compensation Board, recognizing that the board itself has recommended such changes take place?",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, as I said to the hon. member, and I am sorry I didn’t make it more clear and I shall try to do so this time, when government policy is determined it will be made known to the members of this House."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"That is not going to win for the Minister of Labour."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"We thought the change would be made."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have a question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order. The hon. member has not completed his questions."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Oh, I am sorry."
]
}
] |
May 28, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-28/hansard-1
|
WOODSTOCK GENERAL HOSPITAL STRIKE
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"One final question, I want to ask the Premier, in the absence of the Minister of Labour, if he can inform the House whether any steps are being taken by the cabinet or the government of Ontario to ensure that those employees at the Woodstock General Hospital, who are currently on strike, who have now gained the support of all of their colleagues and who are being underpaid even by provincial standards, will be given a fair wage as a result of the current negotiations? Will he take steps to ensure that there will be a resolution of the problem as quickly as possible?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I’d like to assure the hon. member that certainly we would hope there would be a resolution to the problem as soon as possible. The Ministry of Labour is keeping a very careful eye on the situation. I discussed it with them as recently as yesterday. Beyond that, I can’t make any comment."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"They are not even watching it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Does the hon. member for Wentworth have further questions on behalf of his party? If not, the hon. the Minister of Health has the answer to a question asked previously."
]
}
] |
May 28, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-28/hansard-1
|
SCARBOROUGH HOSPITAL EXPANSION
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. F. S. Miller (Minister of Health)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the member for High Park yesterday asked me some questions about an addition to Scarborough General Hospital and I was unable to answer them in any definitive way at that point. That means I really didn’t know."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Somebody else knows; tell us what somebody else knows."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"At this point in time the approval has been granted. It had been granted for quite a period of time for an addition to the chronic wing to the hospital, but not for an active treatment expansion. There is no impending approval for an addition to active treatment facilities.",
"Just for the record, this is being entirely financed by the hospital, not by provincial funds. The hospital has made an equity contribution of $500,000, plus the donation of land. The board arranged to borrow a balance of $1.7 million. The Ministry of Health is not required or obligated to provide any capital cost dollars for the construction of the 168-bed chronic unit.",
"The Ministry of Health has agreed to an operating cost formula based on 1973 price levels and based on 95 per cent occupancy. The calculations are based on an optimum occupancy of 95 per cent. However, it is estimated it will take one year to build up to that level. We are paying a per diem rate per patient of $21.82. The unit will be organized and operated to obtain the appropriate mix of patients from the four levels of chronic care. Diagnostic and therapy services will be obtained on an outpatient basis from the hospital itself."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Supplementary, if I may, Mr. Speaker: Does it make any sense, whether he calls them acute beds or chronic beds, to build more beds when just a few blocks away the ministry has all the beds at the Victoria Medical Inn, which it won’t allow to be used? Why not make a deal with them instead of building more? What difference does it make where it came from?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"The member is not asking the minister to be logical is he?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Well, I have got to make him understand."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the member is confusing a public hospital in this case with a private hospital."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"How about St. Michael’s? Is that public?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Downsview."
]
}
] |
May 28, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-28/hansard-1
|
FEDERAL AID FOR MAINTENANCE OF PROVINCIAL POLICE FORCES
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker; I have a question of the Attorney General. Is the Attorney General familiar with the submissions made by the government of the Province of Quebec through the government of Canada respecting financial compensation claimed from the government of Canada by the Quebec government for maintaining police forces in Quebec? That’s the matter of the QPP. Is Ontario’s Attorney General, as I suspect he is, contemplating similar representations on behalf of Ontario in relation to the OPP? This matter has been discussed, I know, in senior police circles within the Province of Ontario."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the Attorney General is familiar with the request of the Attorney General of Quebec. In fact when the Attorneys General from across the country were here two weeks ago this was discussed as part of the programme.",
"I think the specific question contained in the latter part of the hon. member’s question should be directed to the Solicitor General who has accountability to the House for the police."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"By way of supplementary: I was addressing it to the minister in his dual capacity as Provincial Secretary for Justice --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"It is a policy matter."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"It is a policy matter; it surely isn’t a police matter. It is a matter of policy as to whether or not Ontario is entitled to money."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Why doesn’t the minister have a meeting with himself?",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Since it’s a policy matter, couldn’t the Attorney General, wearing his other hat as Provincial Secretary for Justice, attempt to respond and tell us if Ontario has any attitude about this?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"The Provincial Secretary for Justice would be quite prepared to respond to general matters with respect to policy, but this falls strictly within the responsibilities of the Solicitor General, and the question should be directed to the Solicitor General."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Oh come on!",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for High Park."
]
}
] |
May 28, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-28/hansard-1
|
LENNOX GENERATING STATION
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, a question of the Minister of Energy: Why was the contract for the construction of the switchyard at the Lennox generating station given to Comstock with its tender of $2.1 million when the minister had a tender some hundreds of thousands of dollars less than that from Ontario Hydro’s own construction department?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. D. McKeough (Minister of Energy)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, Ontario Hydro doesn’t bid its own jobs in the same way that I think MTC bids its own jobs. Hydro prepares estimates which may or may not be correct. To put the facts on record, and the member was good enough to give notice of this question, the estimated cost by Hydro, including a profit, would probably be about $1.8 million. Five bids were received. The low tender was $2.1 million and the high bid was $3 million."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"If the lowest bid was $2.1 million and Hydro’s own construction people’s figure was actually $1.5 million -- let’s suppose they make a profit and it comes up to $1.8 million -- doesn’t the minister think that $300,000 should be saved since the construction department was anxious to do the job?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, perhaps the hon. member might take a look at what is happening to construction costs these days."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Is the minister suggesting these bids were not properly prepared?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"The bids were most properly prepared, but like most estimates today, they just don’t stand up."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Grey-Bruce."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Premier."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. E. M. Havrot (Timiskaming)",
"text": [
"Now hear this."
]
}
] |
May 28, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-28/hansard-1
|
SHORTAGE OF BEDS IN OWEN SOUND AREA HOSPITALS
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"In view of the fact that today there is a waiting list of 193 patients for elective surgery and 87 for urgent surgery in the Owen Sound General Hospital, and we have a request from Southampton Saugeen Memorial Hospital for urgent beds and all we have left are stretchers, what are we going to do in the Owen Sound area for our hospitals?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"His offer still stands."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition said the offer still stood. I won’t get into that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"I don’t want that kind of answer. I want to know what the government is going to do."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"He said so; I didn’t say so."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"That’s nonsense to me."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"The member for Grey-Bruce and his problems in his riding receive the same attention as do those of any member in this House. The Minister of Health will get in touch with the members of the hospital boards."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"That is a lot of nonsense. What are we going to do up there?",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"I am not talking about this seat or whether I will resign or not, which I will gladly do if the government will play ball with us. Lives are more important than politics, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"The Premier is just afraid to lose the by-election."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"What is the Premier going to do about it? We can’t go on this way!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I think there is obviously no further answer."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I don’t think this is fair. I don’t care whether you boot me out again or not, but this is important enough that I want an answer from this man.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Port Arthur.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Port Arthur has the floor."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I hate to embarrass you, sir, but I’m going to insist on an answer about what he is going to do there."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Port Arthur has the floor. Perhaps you will direct your question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"I will give the Premier an “out”. Does he have an answer from the Minister of Health as to what he is going to do here?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please. The hon. member for Port Arthur.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Port Arthur will please direct his question.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I’m sorry: I am going to insist I get an answer from the Premier."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Port Arthur."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"The Speaker is testing me."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"The member for Grey-Bruce is testing all of us."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member is right. The hon. member for Port Arthur."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"A question of the Premier --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"Is the Premier going to give us an answer?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"On a point of order, so that you, sir, are not tested by the member for Grey-Bruce; perhaps I will repeat what I said, which I will assume he did not hear --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"No, I didn’t."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"-- so that he may now understand what I did say."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"Oh, he’ll never understand."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"I said very simply that the Minister of Health is quite aware of the situation. There have been discussions with the local hospital board. We are anxious to see a solution to the problem that is reasonable, and I’m relatively confident of what can be found. Now that is some amplification of what I said about two minutes ago. But if the hon. member had been listening, perhaps he would have gained from it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"The Premier wasn’t tested; he had to give an answer."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Port Arthur."
]
}
] |
May 28, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-28/hansard-1
|
WITHDRAWAL OF TEACHERS’ SERVICES
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A question of the Premier: In view of the fact that the arbitration award in the York county teachers’ dispute has not yet been brought down, could the Premier tell the House if the Minister of Education (Mr. Wells) is considering extending the date for the submission of resignations by the teachers in York county?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I can’t comment on that. I would be delighted to ask the Minister of Education. I would doubt there is consideration of the extension of the date for resignation submissions, but I don’t know. I shall find out."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Supplementary: Could the Premier ask the minister to have that information in before the end of the week, as May 31 is the final date on which teachers can resign under normal circumstances.",
"The Premier nods agreement. I’d like to get that on the record; that nod isn’t recorded by Hansard."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Of course, be careful how the member interprets a nod."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for York Centre with a supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"Would it not be important that all settlements which have not been completed, or where decisions have not been handed down, that such extensions be available to them as well?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I didn’t hear the total question because of the noise emanating from the other side of the House. What was it again?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"I thought the noise was from the Premier’s left.",
"Would it not be fair to extend the date of resignation in every situation where a decision as to the final settlement has not been handed down?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I doubt that very much. As I say, I’m really very hopeful that all of them are going to be resolved, including the one in York."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"In two days?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"I think that it will prove to be relatively academic.",
"But I would only say this to the member for York Centre: If I heard reports of last night’s meeting accurately, does he really believe in members of the Legislature being recalled?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"If they have to be."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"I think in a lot of places it would work very well."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Port Arthur may ask a supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Wouldn’t the Premier agree that there is a categorical difference between the situation in York county and the other arbitration awards in that all the other awards went voluntarily to arbitration, but this Legislature imposed arbitration upon the York county teachers?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, there are occasions in these days when I do find the hon. member for Port Arthur perceptive; not always aware, but sometimes perceptive. Of course, he’s quite right; there is a distinction between the situation in York and the other arbitrations or negotiations that are going on. There is no question about that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Supplementary: Wouldn’t that be a reason for extending the date of resignations in that particular case?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"In view of the short time remaining I think there have been enough supplementaries.",
"The hon. member for Ottawa East."
]
}
] |
May 28, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-28/hansard-1
|
JOHANNES STEVENS
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Solicitor General --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Havrot",
"text": [
"When did he get back from Ottawa?",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"My question deals with one Johannes Stevens from Oakville who --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Havrot",
"text": [
"The member is not from Oakville.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order please."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Yes; keep them down a bit, they are getting excited. Who is that?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"The member for Ottawa East is pointing his finger."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"They are testing me.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"My question of the -- would the members keep it down back there.",
"My question of the Solicitor General, Mr. Speaker, involves Mr. Stevens of Oakville, who in 1971 was charged with theft. Certain documents were seized from him by the Oakville police and returned to the complainant, in breach of the Criminal Code. Has the minister investigated this situation in light of the fact that a complaint has been made to the Ontario Attorney General, the Ontario Police Commission and the Oakville Police Commission?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the hon. member really hasn’t given me enough information to identify that particular case. I haven’t even got any names. I would suggest he gives me the information and I will look into it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"I think we should ask the Attorney General."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: How can the minister explain that he has no information in light of the fact that in February, 1973, a complaint was made to the Ontario Police Commission? And how come he has not done anything about this, in light of the fact that the police, in seizing the records and giving them to the complainant, have in fact breached the Criminal Code and have denied the right of this man to have these records to prepare his defence?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"A very good question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"I might say, Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is still adding more facts. He’s really confusing me and confusing the House.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"I still haven’t got the name of the particular complainant to whom he refers."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"I will sit down with the minister."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"Right. I would suggest that he give me the information."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Windsor West."
]
}
] |
May 28, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-28/hansard-1
|
DISPUTE AT BORDEN CO. LTD.
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"A question of the Premier, Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Labour: Does he not think there is categorical evidence of bad faith bargaining on the part of Borden’s milk company at its plant in Belmont, Ont., which having locked out its employees on May 2 is now advertising for and employing other workers? Secondly, what is the Ministry of Labour doing to assist in solving this dispute?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I don’t want to use a double negative but no, I do not think there is because I don’t know."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"Supplementary: Will the Premier -- in the absence of the Minister of Labour, and perhaps a prolonged absence -- find out and inform this House?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"I would be delighted."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The member for Waterloo North."
]
}
] |
May 28, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-28/hansard-1
|
ENVIRONMENTAL ASSESSMENT
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. E. R. Good (Waterloo North)",
"text": [
"A question of the Minister of the Environment: Is it correct there have been over 200 submissions to the green paper on environmental assessment? Does the minister plan a public discussion of the most pertinent facts that have been brought up in the submissions to the ministry on the green paper?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman (Minister of the Environment)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, there were 179 submissions. We have evaluated them and are still evaluating the submissions on the green paper that was presented last November here in the House."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"Supplementary: Is the minister prepared to present a draft for public perusal of the main points of concern that have been brought in by these submissions; and does he expect to submit legislation at the spring session that can be looked at over the summer until the matter is dealt with on second reading?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the green paper was set out so people could make submissions. We have taken those submissions. We have analysed them. We are still analysing them. As far as the latter part of the member’s question is concerned, as far as legislation is concerned -- in the fullness of time.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Oh yes, he knows what he is talking about."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Thunder Bay."
]
}
] |
May 28, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-28/hansard-1
|
RADAR BASE AT ARMSTRONG
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. E. Stokes (Thunder Bay)",
"text": [
"I have a question of the policy minister for Social Development. Is her policy field doing any consultation with the Resources Development policy field to ensure that the town of Armstrong won’t wither on the vine as a result of the closing down of the radar base by the federal government?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. M. Birch (Provincial Secretary for Social Development)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, no; there has not been any consultation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Isn’t the Premier concerned that all those ministers are leaving his cabinet?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Time for oral questions has now expired."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"I will tell the member, they are going to do it with more success than the member had."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Want to bet? Does the Premier want to bet on that election?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Petitions.",
"Presenting reports.",
"Hon. Mr. Welch presented the seventh annual report of the Ontario Law Reform Commission for the fiscal year April 1, 1973, to March 31, 1974."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Is he presenting that as policy secretary or Attorney General?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch",
"text": [
"I’ve been writing the report; notice: “March 31, 1974.”",
"Mr. Wiseman, in the absence of Mr. McNeil, from the standing resources development committee reported the following resolution:",
"RESOLVED: That supply in the following amounts and to defray the expenses of the Ministry of Natural Resources be granted to Her Majesty for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1975:"
]
}
] |
May 28, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-28/hansard-1
|
MINISTRY OF NATURAL RESOURCES
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Motions.",
"Introduction of bills.",
"Before the orders of the day, I should like to remind the hon. members that tomorrow evening the great social event of the year is taking place.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"Singing at this one."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I extend a special invitation to all members to attend the Speaker’s dinner. I promise you there will be good entertainment."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, on a point of order --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. H. Edighoffer (Perth)",
"text": [
"Before the orders of the day, Mr. Speaker, I would like to draw to the attention of the members the colourful brochure that was placed on their desks today. It is the brochure from the Stratford Festival which has its grand opening next Monday evening. It still remains one of the leading tourist highlights of Ontario and I invite all members to visit the Stratford Festival this year."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, before the orders of the day and on a point of order, I would like to draw your attention to the committee notices printed in the order paper, in which the social development committee is evidently meeting in two places at once. One is to consider the estimates of the Ministry of Colleges and Universities and one is to consider the Health Disciplines Act. I understand the solution has been worked out, but I draw it to your attention --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"No, it hasn’t."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"-- because it shows the shambles the ordering of the business of this House is in. Perhaps a clarification should be made publicly so the members of those committees know which is being considered and where."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I don’t wish to comment at great length on that, but the shambles in the business of the House is the nonsensical use of time which has existed for about the last six weeks.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"The minister doesn’t like discussion of anything."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Speaking to the point of order and the reply of the House leader, it is evident to anyone with even half a brain, which might include the House leader --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"If the House leader had another half a brain he would be lucky.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, order. This sort of language is not parliamentary and should be withdrawn.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"The member doesn’t know it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"I withdraw it, Mr. Speaker; “anyone with half a brain” wouldn’t include the House leader. The fact of the matter is that a standing committee cannot hear two things at the same time.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please. I don’t believe this sort of language should be permitted in any Legislature in this country and I would ask the hon. member to withdraw it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"All right, I withdraw it. Let’s begin again.",
"It is evident to anyone in the House that one standing committee cannot sit and hear two matters at the same time. The House leader informed me five, perhaps seven minutes ago, that it was his intention to have both the Ministry of Colleges and Universities’ estimates and the Health Disciplines Act heard at the same time. I bring to your attention, sir, that this doesn’t make for an orderly procedure which can be reasonably followed by any member. The committee can only address itself to one matter at one time and I ask for your guidance on which of these matters will be dealt with today."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I would like to make this comment -- it is not a precedent that two matters of business are referred to a standing committee."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Not to the same committee."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"Not at all -- the same committee, in the function of this House."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"What would be a precedent? The minister said it wasn’t a precedent."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"Pardon me?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"Give us a precedent."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"Over the years on many occasions there have been two or three items referred to the same committee and the committee deals with it in its own wisdom."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. E. W. Martel (Sudbury East)",
"text": [
"Yes, but not at the same time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"In two different locations? Since the House leader has now given us an assertive statement -- and I know it is not his custom to mislead the House -- do I understand the House leader to say there is precedent for a standing committee to sit in two places at the same time on two different matters?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"I didn’t say that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"That is what he is doing today."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"That is not what I said."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"All right. Then I say, most respectfully, through the Speaker, that the House leader did mislead me. I thought the House leader said there is precedent for a standing committee to be sitting in two places at once?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"No, that is what the member said."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"That is what is going to happen this afternoon."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"No."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"It is not going to happen?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"No."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"May I, Mr. Speaker --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"Just permit me for a moment. Do I understand the order of business? Let me tell the House something; I am not going to get into this debate, because unfortunately --",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"-- I deprived myself of the right to join the debate. I was so incensed with the order of business in the House, while recognizing it is the function of government, I went to the Speaker today as a private member and colleague of his to register my personal objection to the destruction, in effect, of the normal parliamentary process here. I did that. I am really concerned about it. I want to say this to the House leader, if I might, through the Speaker, I am very interested in knowing if we are going to do Colleges and Universities at the same time as the Health Discipline Act in the same place?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Before the House leader answers may I bring to your attention, sir, exactly what the situation is? The order paper shows --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I might point out to the hon. member I have read the order paper. I am aware of the apparent discrepancy."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"One can’t be in both rooms --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I had thought it might have been a printer’s error. I am not certain, but I think the House leader can straighten it out."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"Yes, Mr. Speaker, I will reiterate that it is not uncommon that two matters of business be referred to the same standing committee and the committee deals with it as it sees fit."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"I was right. I don’t take back my statement."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"It so happens that the Minister of Health will not be here on Thursday, Friday and Monday, and the committee will deal with the estimates of the Ministry of Colleges and Universities at that time. That is not unusual either."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"Are we not dealing with Colleges and Universities today?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I will say of the member of that party who is getting up and being critical and of the House leader of the NDP --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"I am going to join in this point of order right now."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"-- if they were half the gentlemen that the House leader of the Liberal Party is, we wouldn’t have any of this nonsense."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I want to say something to you about the point of order. Do you realize that the House leader is now telling us that Colleges and Universities estimates are not going to go on this afternoon? Let me give you the history of this, if I may -- just a short history --",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"This is the third time in 24 hours he has changed his mind. What type of government order is that?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please.",
"Interjection by an hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I do recognize there appears to be some difficulty --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"You bet your life."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"-- in connection with the ordering of the business as set forth in the order paper. This was noticed this morning. I wasn’t certain just what the explanation would be."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"It is just chaos here, utter chaos."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"In any event, at this particular time I am about to call for orders of the day. It’s up to the House leader to indicate the next order of business; and in any event there is nothing I can do about the conduct of the committees."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"That’s right. You are right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I am sure this will be straightened out one way or the other, because the committees cannot be in two different places at the same time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"What is going on in committee?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, on a point of order --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"You are going to do what with which and to whom?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Don’t leave, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, as a member of the social development committee, what room do I go to?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Orders of the day."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Clerk of the House",
"text": [
"The second order, House in committee of the whole."
]
}
] |
May 28, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-28/hansard-1
|
LAND SPECULATION TAX ACT (CONTINUED)
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, if I may --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Order, please."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, on a point of order --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"State your point of order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Thank you. My point of order is this: As part of my function, I am required to inform my colleagues in this party where they are supposed to be in order to conduct the orderly business of the House."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Well --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Just hear me out. In order to do that, I need to know whether to advise them to be in committee room 1 to deal with the Health Disciplines Act or in committee room 230 --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Order, please. If I might --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"-- in order to deal with the Ministry of Colleges and Universities estimates."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Order, please."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I just want to say again that there is no sense in that member pulling this stuff on me when I told him precisely what the circumstances were."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"They can’t be done."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Order, please."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"They can’t do it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. A. J. Roy (Ottawa East)",
"text": [
"Where are they sitting? Just tell us."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Order, please. That matter is not before the committee."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Then I move the committee rise and report in order that it can be put before the appropriate body."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"I consider this a frivolous motion."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"I move the committee rise and report. It’s a procedural motion to deal with a matter that has to be dealt with."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"I will put the motion then.",
"Those in favour of Mr. Dean’s motion will please say “aye.”",
"Those opposed will please say “nay.”",
"In my opinion the “nays” have it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Well, we will have to call in the members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. G. Eaton (Middlesex South)",
"text": [
"Talk about wasting time!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"They can’t be in two places at the same time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Call in the members.",
"The committee divided on Mr. Deans motion that the committee rise and report, which was negatived on the following vote."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Clerk of the House",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, the “ayes” are 28, the “nays” are 56."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"I declare the motion lost.",
"When we were dealing with bill 25 last evening, although we were discussing section 5, subsection 4, there was a leftover item, an answer to a question on subsection 3. Perhaps the minister might clarify that now."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. A. K. Meen (Minister of Revenue)",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, toward the end of last evening I indicated to the hon. member for High Park that I would like to ruminate for a little bit on his suggestion that the affidavit might contain a reference --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Order, please. It’s very noisy in the chamber."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"-- that the affidavit might contain a reference to the residency of the deponent. On reflecting on it, as I indicated I would do, I concluded that that would create no particular advantage, inasmuch as if the deponent is prepared to swear a false affidavit as to the circumstances set forth, then he’s just as likely to swear a false affidavit with respect to his residency since he would be out of the country. It, therefore, would be of no meaning and no advantage to put it into subsection 3, and I therefore would not propose to amend subsection 3 of section 5 at this time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Shall subsection 3 stand as part of the bill? Carried. On subsection 4, any further discussion on that? The member for High Park."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. Shulman (High Park)",
"text": [
"You will recall, Mr. Chairman, last night we were talking about sending registered letters to people. The subsection lets everybody get a registered letter but doesn’t let them do very much with their registered letter. The suggestion I made to the minister was that if someone is going to pay this lien, this payment he makes should be given a priority. For example, if the first mortgagor declines to pay the lien and the second mortgagor pays the lien, surely that payment he is making should rank ahead of the first mortgage? The minister was thinking about what I said and perhaps he has some response."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"The practice in cases like this, Mr. Chairman, where an encumbrancer pays up a prior lien of whatever nature, is that the amount of his payment is added to his own encumbrance and accrues, along with his own encumbrance, at the rate of interest that is provided for in his own encumbrance, and that’s the way this would work in this instance."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"I am sorry, what is the reason you gave for that?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"That it is the normal practice in anything of this sort, where the second mortgagee pays off an execution and where the execution creditor might be seizing and selling property under a writ of fi. fa. and the encumbrancer comes forward to pay it off, it is added to this encumbrance and, as I say, accrues interest from the date of payment at the rate set out in that encumbrance."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"It may be normal practice but it doesn’t make any common sense, so let’s think afresh, and even if you have been doing things wrong all these years, we will try to improve them.",
"It obviously doesn’t make any sense for a person with a second or third encumbrance or mortgage, or whatever you call it, to make a payment if he is not getting a first priority with the payment. What you are saying, in effect, is that we are going to send out all these registered letters but it doesn’t do anybody any good, because the only person to whom it would make any sense whatsoever would be the first mortgagor.",
"Just because it has always been done the wrong way I don’t think it is logical to continue to do it the wrong way. It would appear common sense to me -- perhaps the lawyers will disabuse me of common sense here -- to allow the persons to make the payment in order of their priority, and if the person who holds the first mortgage doesn’t wish to make the payment then the person holding the second mortgage should be allowed to do it, and whatever payment he makes should come as a first encumbrance on the property. Right or wrong?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I have already set out the practice that would be followed."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"We know it is the practice, but it is wrong."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"On subsection 4, the member for Lakeshore."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. P. D. Lawlor (Lakeshore)",
"text": [
"The hon. member is perfectly right. The answer, it seems to me --",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"May I have a little peace so that I may soliloquize? There are two different things involved here. What I think the member for High Park is asking is, if any one of the encumbrancers down the line steps in and takes over your lien, why doesn’t he step into your position, into your shoes? Why don’t you make an assignment of it and give him that priority?",
"The thing you are talking about is a tacking doctrine, which is somewhat different. Oh, and by the way, I would like to consult with the minister on an answer. Have you checked the mortgage law very carefully, and the wording in the normal mortgage very carefully, to see whether this very kind of payment in lieu of somebody else is subject to the doctrine of tacking, or is the wording in mortgages -- I haven’t checked this -- sufficiently broad to encompass this particular thing?",
"We all know it does it with respect to taxes that are paid and with respect to other kinds of encumbrances that are moved in on, and you can bring it into your mortgage figure, add it to the principal and the mortgage goes on. You have assumed some responsibility. I am not sure in law whether or not the assumption of this particular liability would be so regarded by the law of mortgages or by the courts in this context. That is really the first point.",
"The second one is, that’s not helping somebody who is pretty far down the line of encumbrancers and who has to protect himself in this way over against the prior encumbrancers who have refused to participate in that. By adding that particular burden on to the thing he could leave himself in a very detrimental position, and I think you will agree with me that in law he will be in a very much better position were he in your shoes and not merely relying upon some tertiary right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, that could be one way to do it. One could have a provision where, with the lien paid off, the person paying off the claim was subrogated to the position of the minister."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"Right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"However, I think that could be subject to abuse because that would put his claim then in priority to all the other claimants on the property who might be, as a result of that, unjustly affected. The law is clear, as I understand it anyway, with respect to mortgages. I don’t think that this would be contrary to the law that one would expect to apply in the normal practice with respect to mortgages.",
"I might add, Mr. Chairman, what we’re talking about in subsection 4 of 5, is simply the matter of notice. When we want to talk about the way in which that person recovers the money he’s paid, I would suggest the hon. members look down at subsection 7. Now, when we get to that we can talk about that part of it, if the hon. members care to. What we’re talking about under subsection 4 of 5 is simply the matter of notice requiring the minister to bring to the attention of all those who appear to have an interest in the title the fact here is a claim about to be exercised by the minister."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Does subsection 4 then stand as part of the bill?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"I reserve my comments until I get there."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. E. Bullbrook (Sarnia)",
"text": [
"It’s subsection 7 we want to get to -- but we’ll get to that. I just want to record again, not at length, but the comments made last night in connection with subsection 2. You recognize that because of the fact that as a retention of your lien privileges, notwithstanding the issuance of the certificate, you’re going to put a person in a position of losing their land when, in fact, they’ve relied on a certificate issued by your ministry."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Does subsection 4 stand as part of the bill?",
"Subsection 4 agreed to.",
"Subsection 5?",
"Subsection 5 agreed to.",
"Is there anything on subsection 6?",
"Subsection 6 agreed to.",
"Subsection 7?",
"The member for Lakeshore."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"The minister mentioned that it would be subject to some possible abuse by way of a subrogation, or assignment, or substitution of some kind. Without being too harsh, it’s no greater abuse than the abuse that you yourself conferred by giving yourself this peculiar kind of priority. If, in order to protect his interests, an innocent individual was placed in that position, then it is no greater abuse than the Crown has already saw fit to bring into effect. Therefore, if it’s an abuse, it’s an abuse by second degree.",
"We’ve heard the argument about the abuse involved in the thing in the first subsection. I’m not going to recapitulate that argument. That would be possible, but I don’t think your answer went to the heart of the matter. If it’s there and someone is being subjected to this particular penalty, then that tax under the circumstances -- I think the minister will agree -- could be very high indeed; a 50 per cent tax on an increment of $100,000. The sum of $50,000 is a lot of money to be added on to some fourth, third or second mortgage along the way.",
"Wouldn’t it be more just and equitable in the circumstances, since the lien already exists, since it’s sitting there in priority to everything, that someone else would take it over and pay it? It would be placed in precisely the same position."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The member for Riverdale."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. A. Renwick (Riverdale)",
"text": [
"I would like to ask the minister a question on the same point. Presumably a person who doesn’t have an encumbrance gets no protection whatsoever if he makes the payment which is provided for in subsection 7?",
"It would seem to me in those situations in which a change of control has taken place in a corporate body of the kind which would attract the tax set out in subsection 2 of section 2 -- that while there’s been no transfer of the land in the registry office, there’s been a change of control in the corporation. A change of control would attract the tax, create the lien against the land with respect to which the owner corporation had had the change of control. And then if one of the shareholders said, “I now want to pay the tax so that I can be protected against this lien and have the lien discharged,” such a person would have no priority of any kind and no protection for the funds which he paid.",
"It seems to me that the point made by the member for High Park and the point made by the member for Lakeshore must also include the requirement that anybody who pays should get some kind of protection.",
"I agree with what I take to be the meaning of the comments made by the member for Lakeshore that the protection for the person who has an encumbrance, by having the amount of the payment added to the encumbrance, is in itself not adequate. I take it that that’s what the member for Lakeshore is saying. Well, if that is not adequate in the view of the member for Lakeshore, it certainly is less than adequate if you don’t happen to have an encumbrance and are a person who is interested in protecting the land, because I am a shareholder in a company which has had a change of control and which has attracted the tax and therefore attracted the lien on the land.",
"It seems to me that there must be some method by which a payor who takes that step to protect his position should be given some protection. I agree with the member for Lakeshore that even when he has an encumbrance he should be given a priority over other encumbrances --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"That’s right, and on this particular lien."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"-- with respect to the moneys which are paid."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"The member for Riverdale and the member for Lakeshore raised an interesting point -- two points. The member for Lakeshore suggested it should be in priority to all other claims."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Yes; he is suggesting that it should, in effect, be a subrogation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"Would the minister speak up just a bit?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"The member for Riverdale suggests that there should be some automatic mechanism whereby the payor --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"On a point of order for a moment. I am very much interested in what you are saying, but for some reason I can’t hear you too well. I don’t know whether it’s the amplification, or what it is."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I’ll try again. Is that better?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"Yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Maybe if I aim my speech this way a little bit.",
"In the second instance the member for Riverdale suggests that there should be some mechanism built into the section for security, in some fashion, to the person paying off the lien, in the case where he does not have some kind of encumbrance as elementary perhaps as a writ of execution to which he could add the amount outstanding. It raises a good point and certainly the illustration given by the member --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"I don’t follow the point, I must say."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"-- would be one in which there was maybe nothing on title; where there had been a change in the shares of the company, perhaps; where a deemed disposition has occurred; where maybe the shareholder feels himself aggrieved and needs to protect his interest. If that were so, I am sure he could make the necessary arrangement -- I would think he could make the necessary arrangement -- with the company to take a security for, say, another mortgage for the advance used to clear off the lien of the Crown, or some kind of security from the company, or shares, or whatever --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"I think he should be given it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"-- in order to protect himself. Certainly subsection 7, as it stands --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"I think what we are saying is --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"-- would give no individual automatically a right because his right does not appear on the face of the title. He has no interest in the title, as it appears."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I like the use by the minister of the term “subrogation” because that’s exactly what the member for Lakeshore was saying, that he should be subrogated to the right of the Crown and have the same priority with respect to the payment that the Crown had with respect to the lien.",
"The example I used, of course, was simply to think up an example of a situation where a person might, to protect his interest, have to make a payment and, at the same time, didn’t have the kind of encumbrance. I think both situations could be covered by providing that the payor to the extent of the payment made to discharge the lien would be given the statutory priority over everybody and be placed in the same position as the Crown was placed in.",
"I would certainly be interested in the comments of the member for Sarnia or any of the other members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"I must confess I believe, to the minister through the chairman, that I am missing the point put forward by both the member for Riverdale and the member for Lakeshore. I understand that you are distinguishing, if we may, between the rights of someone with an interest in the equity of redemption and a right in a person holding an encumbrance or charge. We are involving ourselves with the right of the interest of the owner of the equity of redemption. Then the value placed in addition, or the obligation of payment, still leaves him with his ability to recover that because he has control of the sale of the asset. Where the encumbrancer doesn’t, that’s what I thought the distinction was, that we don’t have to add that on to the person having the interest because he recovers that in his control of the asset."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"That is not the point."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"Well then, maybe I am missing your point."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, as I understand the situation it is not the question of the equitable owner, it is the encumbrancers.",
"If a fairly large piece of property had say four mortgages on it, the fourth mortgage very well might be, say a $10,000 mortgage. The lien itself might be $50,000, five times greater than the mortgage itself. If for one reason or another the other encumbrancers are not prepared or do not have adequate cash to move in on that situation, this fourth mortgagee has only got a $60,000 mortgage which may leave him really holding the bag over against the rest of the boys if he should be foolish enough to move in on the situation. Nevertheless to protect himself he might feel obliged to do so.",
"Why shouldn’t the person with this very special kind of tax -- a really extraordinary form of taxation unknown to this moment to the laws of Ontario and not encompassed by way of prevision within the Mortgages Act as to what may be tacked on to the principal of a mortgage -- why shouldn’t he be able, in these circumstances, considering the weight that must be borne in hard monetary terms, step into the shoes of the ministry? He is paying them, why shouldn’t he achieve that status under the law? Wouldn’t it be the fairest possible thing for them to do in the circumstances?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"In other words, as I understand it -- I can’t see the point in connection with a subsequent encumbrancer. You, I think, will agree with my problem with respect to the owner of the equity of redemption."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"He’s all right. He has got the money."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"He’s all right. The point, I take it, is that you want him to have priority as to the money paid to the ministry in priority to any other encumbrancer."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"He should be subrogated to the position of the Crown."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"Yes, I must say that I am without any great thought in that. I see equity on one side and yet on the other side I see the fact that that’s part of the normal mortgage business transaction.",
"For example, supposing you have got a second mortgagee undertaking a power of sale or foreclosure, then an execution creditor has to take that gamble. Right? Am I correct, Mr. Minister, that he takes that gamble if he wants to pay off the first and second mortgage?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Yes, I think so."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"I am inclined to think it is part of the gamble that that person holding a financial interest must take. On the other hand, I see the point made where for example a first mortgagee might not be in a sufficiently liquid position at the time to protect his interest, so a second mortgagee, in order to protect not only his own interest but the position of the first mortgagee, does deal with your ministry. Then it does seem reasonable that he should have some priority of protection.",
"I think on balance probably their argument is acceptable."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"You can see both sides of this and I’m rather inclined to look at the risk that a fourth mortgagee may have to adopt when he advances money on that kind of security. You see, for example, he will have been given notice of the impending sale for that matter, if it came about in that kind of transaction. Then he will receive a subsequent notice.",
"I can see that we would have some difficulties if we simply gave him the right to step into the shoes of the minister. And although I would like to reflect on that one a little longer I think that I would rather not tamper with that at the present time. That’s a very standard kind of provision. In fact, we have I believe a virtually identical section in the Land Transfer Tax Act."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"The tax is nowhere close."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"It could be 20 per cent."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Shall subsection 7 stand as part of the bill?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"I want to ask a question of a technical nature. I notice in subsection 4 we use the words, “interest, encumbrance or charge.” I relate my comments to a possible situation. Since there is no definition of encumbrance in the statute -- I haven’t looked at the Interpretation Act -- but you don’t mention “charge” as to the right in subsection 7; you just talk about the encumbrance there.",
"Can the minister think of a situation where a person who is given a right under subsection 7 might have a charge under subsection 4 and because of the wording not be given the protection that you have given under subsection 7? It’s just a technical thing."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"No sir, not offhand. I think that they are probably mutually inclusive."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"I am prepared to rely on your legal opinion or your ministerial opinion. I’m just wondering, it would seem to me that we should have said in subsection 7 “encumbrance or charge” just to make sure that we are not missing any situation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I am sorry, my mind was elsewhere. Would the member repeat that?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"I was suggesting to the minister that he might consider perhaps amplifying this under subsection 7; where he has used the words “encumbrance or charge” in subsection 4 the minister might want to use the same words. I just don’t know if a court interpreting a specific position of a holder of some equity in the property might say, “I’m sorry, you don’t have a right because you’re a charge” and only the encumbrance has a right under subsection 7."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I think we, as lawyers, sometimes use more words than necessary and I’ll take a look at that. I would like to think, as I said, they are mutually inclusive but since there is a difference in the two, I think we might want to take a look at that to determine which one of them we might alter some day"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Shall subsection 7 stand as part of the bill?",
"Subsection 7 agreed to."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Subsection 8, the member for Downsview."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. V. M. Singer (Downsview)",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, subsection 8 is another one of these sections in which the wording is so broad as to almost be meaningless. It says:",
"“Upon such conditions as he may impose, the minister may abandon, postpone, release or waive with respect to all or any part of any designated land any special lien conferred by this Act.”",
"What exactly does it mean? Does it mean I can write the minister a letter and say, “Please, Mr. Minister, withdraw the lien” and the minister will say, “If you will write me another letter saying the same thing, that’s the condition I impose”?",
"Surely, there must be some testing for the withdrawal of the lien? If the lien is validly there -- we are going to come to this again in a different context, in a later section -- should we be prepared in a taxing statute to say, “Let the minister, as his discretion deems best, abandon the lien for whatever reasons are known only to him”? What is the purpose of the section? Why should any minister ask for such broad discretion in a taxing statute? Frankly, in absence of an explanation, I can’t see how I can support subsection 8."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The minister?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, this is not an uncommon section. I would refer the member to the Corporations Tax Act which has a similar section in it. I think it is section 167, subsection 3, which reads:",
"“Upon such conditions as he may impose, the minister may abandon, postpone, release or waive with respect to any or all of the property of a corporation any lien or charge for taxes, interests, penalties, costs and other amounts imposed under this or any predecessor Act.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"We objected to that at that time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"That’s a rather typical section. Again, we’ve got the same provision in the Land Transfer Tax Act, section 6, subsection 3. I suggest the purpose of it is for the kind of thing which I outlined to the members last evening."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"We fought for three days over that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"At one stage we were talking about the release of this lien and I observed that under certain circumstances a solicitor might contact the ministry and say, “I need a lien clearance certificate on this property but obviously there is going to be some tax payable. I don’t have the money to pay you now but I can pay you out of the proceeds.” On the solicitor’s undertaking to pay the amount of tax eligible on the completion of the sale, the ministry could issue a lien clearance certificate and deliver it to the solicitor for use when he completes the transaction. It is for purposes such as that that subsection 8 is included in section 5."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I can’t accept the fact that there may be similar sections in other statutes. This statute is before us and that kind of ex post facto argument doesn’t impress me at all. I have read the section. It gives far too broad a discretion to the minister and I don’t think the minister should have that kind of discretion in this statute.",
"His last example about a solicitor phoning and saying, “We can’t pay the tax now but we’ll pay it out of the proceeds” seems to be somewhat specious because if the proceeds are forthcoming at the time of the sale, surely it would be the simplest thing in the world for the vendor to provide direction that out of the proceeds X per cent be made payable to the Treasurer of Ontario, which would at that time discharge any lien. The balance, whatever that may be, would be payable to the vendor or however else the vendor may direct.",
"Unless the minister is prepared to put some limits upon the opening phraseology, “upon such conditions as he may impose,” I don’t think I can support that section. I think it is a bad section for a taxing statute. I don’t think any taxing minister should have that kind of authority. It invites abuse -- I’m not suggesting that this minister is going to abuse it -- but it invites abuse of the process.",
"I don’t think it should be there because this is going to be a very difficult statute to administer and I don’t think the Legislature should open the door to the kind of pressures which may arise by allowing this blanket permission to the minister to avoid the lien.",
"If there were some conditions on which the lien could be avoided, if there was something to replace it, I would look at it differently. But that, together with the first part of the regulation section, to me are complete anathema and I just can’t support them, Mr. Chairman."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The member for Riverdale."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"I have a question that concerns me. Subsection 1 of this section 5 states that the tax, until paid, is a special lien having priority over every other claim. I take it that that is exactly what the statute says: “Every tax imposed upon designated land by this Act is until paid a special lien in favour of Her Majesty upon the designated land ...”",
"Does the abandonment, or release, or waiver of the special lien under section 8 discharge the tax?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, no. I recognize the point the member is making. It’s not our intention to treat it that way and certainly we do not think it does. We say under sub 1, every tax until paid constitutes a special lien. Now, we say however -- in effect, we are qualifying that:",
"“Upon such conditions as he may impose, the minister may abandon, postpone, release or waive with respect to all or any part of the designated land any special lien conferred by this Act.”",
"Subsection 8 modifies this subsection 1.",
"I have wondered, too, but my counsel tell me that this is clear and there is no question that the tax still remains a tax payable even though the lien has been wiped out. But I must say I raised the same question my own mind."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"I think it’s passing strange that under subsections 2 and 3 you have the saving clause with respect to the continuing liability of the transferor with respect to the payment of the tax, and you don’t have it in subsection 8. It would appear to me that there must be some Latin maxim which covers that in the way which would allow at least an argument to be made in the court that a waiver of the lien or a release of the lien under subsection 8 would in fact discharge the tax that was payable.",
"I refer specifically to the end of subsection 2 and the end of subsection 3 where it says: “... and the giving of the certificate does not impair or relieve the transferor from his responsibility to pay any tax imposed by this Act.” And at the bottom: “... but the making of such affidavit does not impair or relieve the transferor from his responsibility to pay any tax imposed by this Act.” I still think that you should have a saving clause in subsection 8."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Yes, as I say, I had wondered about that but I am advised that it does not release the liability to pay. It could be that those clauses in subsections 2 and 3 of the section are superfluous, but I recognize the problem.",
"I’d like to see maybe either it added in sometime or else deleted from the other two, although I think it helps to clarify the position in subsections 2 and 3 to have it in."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Shall subsection 8 then stand as part of the bill?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"No."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Those in favour of subsection 8 standing as part of the bill will please say “aye.”",
"Those opposed will please say “nay.”",
"In my opinion, the “ayes” have it.",
"I declare the subsection carried.",
"Section 5 agreed to.",
"On section 6:"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The member for Riverdale."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"You will notice, Mr. Chairman -- I am sure the minister will notice since it is his bill -- that opposite this section is the term “avoidance.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"Yes, it doesn’t do what you say it is going to do."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"And if my memory serves me correctly, elsewhere later in this Act there is a provision with respect to evasion."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"Were you looking at 16?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Maybe I was thinking of 16."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"Section 16(3)(b)."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Yes, to evade; subsection 3(b). I take it that this has just been taken holus-bolus out of one of the other taxing statutes. The language sounds very familiar from the Income Tax Act of Canada."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Yes, it is based on section 55 of the Income Tax Act, Mr. Chairman."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Yes, I thought so. Perhaps it is worth the minister putting on the record his understanding of the section, because it is supposed to be trite law that a person is so entitled to arrange his affairs with respect to taxing matters that he pays the least amount of tax, and that that tax avoidance is perfectly proper and perfectly legal as distinct from tax evasion, which is an intention to evade paying the tax which is properly payable.",
"This is a situation where this kind of language tries to say both things, that what is otherwise proper becomes improper if the conclusion can be made that “he may reasonably be considered to have artificially or unduly reduced the amount of the taxable value of the designated land that he has disposed of [and] the taxable value shall be computed as if such reduction had not occurred.”",
"Why isn’t it quite proper, within the framework of this taxing statute, for persons to make such arrangements of their affairs so that if they do in fact effect a disposition that escapes the net set out by the tax collector, the Minister of Revenue in this statute, they are entitled to have the benefit of it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Well, perhaps before the Minister answers that --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I will answer that, and then I will be happy to listen to the member for Downsview."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"I beg your pardon?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"The operative words really are “artificially and unduly.” That is the same phraseology that appears in section 55.",
"“For the purposes of this subdivision [it says in section 55 of the Income Tax Act], where the result of one or more sales, exchanges, declarations of trust, or other transactions of any kind whatsoever is that a taxpayer has disposed of property under circumstances such that he may reasonably be considered to have artificially or unduly",
"“(a) reduced the amount of his gain from the disposition,",
"“(b) created as loss from the disposition, or",
"“(c) increased the amount of his loss from the disposition,",
"“the taxpayer’s gain or loss, as the case may be, from the disposition of the property shall be computed as if such reduction, creation or increase, as the case may be, had not occurred.”",
"The hon. members will note a distinct similarity between that section 55 and the present section 6 we are looking at in this bill.",
"Tax avoidance per se, I agree with the member for Riverdale, has always been something that clever lawyers felt they could advise their clients to do in a legal way --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Not only that, it has been upheld by the Supreme Court of Canada."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"-- but the way in which this is set up, what they are talking about as a tax avoidance here would be a manner in which the tax was added back in but, in my opinion, would not carry with it the same criminal connotation as under the sections of the Income Tax Act dealing with tax evasion.",
"I think there is a nice difference between the nature of the penalties and interest that are charged for offences under section 55 for avoidance and the other sections of the Income Tax Act dealing with evasion.",
"Although I think it is a proper thing for a lawyer or an accountant to advise his client as to how best to arrange or organize his affairs to minimize his tax, that’s not what we are getting at here when we are talking about arrangements such as to artificially or unduly reduce the amount of the taxable value of the designated land that he has disposed of. That’s a very different thing."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"The minister has just confirmed my worst fears. What bothers me is that when we were talking about those sections on page 5, section 1, subsection (d), parts (v), (vi) and (vii), the minister threw out the thought that if someone availed themselves of those provisions of the statute, the minister was going to descend on them under section 6, if they did it with the idea of avoiding tax.",
"I agree completely with what the member for Riverdale has said; that avoidance, as long as it is within the law, is legitimate. It is accepted by the highest court in the land, the Supreme Court of Canada. It is accepted by the House of Lords in the United Kingdom. It is the way in which these things are looked at.",
"What the minister seems to have said just a few moments ago is that if someone avails himself of the provisions of those parts of section 1 and puts himself in the position where he can avoid a tax, the minister comes to the conclusion that if the taxpayer “may reasonably be considered to have artificially or unduly reduced the amount of taxable value of designated land that he has disposed of, the taxable value shall be computed as if such reduction had not occurred.”",
"I think he defeats completely all established tax law. Would the minister consider the addition to section 6 of a phrase to the effect that, “shall be computed as if such reduction had not occurred, provided that the provisions of this Act have not been complied with.” It would be something to that effect. I am not quite sure of my instant draftsmanship as I am standing on my feet, but the intent is pretty obvious.",
"I don’t think it is reasonable that we should accept what the minister said several days ago, since now, apparently, he is saying that if someone can legally bring himself within certain provisions of this Act and so avoid the tax, that the minister can then descend on him under the provisions of section 6, because someone else has deemed that they have artificially or unduly reduced the amount of the taxable value of the designated land or even eliminated it.",
"What we were suggesting -- what my colleague from Sarnia particularly was suggesting when we got started on this, and several of us joined in -- was that it is not beyond human imagination, in fact, it’s logical to expect, that some people may find it worth their while to create the structures mentioned in (v), (vi) and (vii) of 1(d) in order to legally avoid the tax.",
"Now, the minute we opposed (v), (vi) and (vii) for that reason, the minister insisted that they stay. We divided the House on it. The majority of the House insisted that they stay. Now, since the minister insists that they stay, then he should honour them. And then I think that he should qualify section 6 so that he can’t negate the previous provisions of the statute which he has insisted remain in the statute."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I think it’s quite obvious that if the steps are taken pursuant to the statute, then one could not hold that they were artificially or unduly reduced. If he has complied with the statute, then he hasn’t done anything artificial. But if he has, in fact, availed himself of some subterfuge which is not specifically provided for, or which was not contemplated and which, as a result, artificially or unduly reduced the amount, then --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"You keep on saying, “which is not contemplated.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"-- the provision for assessment by the minister, beginning with section 8, would be appropriate and the normal mechanisms would flow from that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Lakeshore."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, in my, not judicial but in my legislative wisdom, reading this clause I am not going to argue that it doesn’t do what you think it is supposed to do; although I don’t think it does. But when you read that clause at the first blush -- and even after a few readings -- it doesn’t seem to encompass, at least in clear terms, what you are apparently after here.",
"This is the clause that forced this debate. Day after day you have referred us to that which would move in on collusions of all kinds; participations by anyone engaged in or who had an interest in the transaction by way of a fraud vis-à-vis the government. I wish you would say so. I really wish you’d get down to that. I think it can be said in plain and terse English to that effect.",
"I think a fair reading of it, an immediate reading of the clause, is it seems to fall basically on the transferor, although that’s not your intention. The breadth of the wording is such that one would have very grave difficulties in coming to the conclusion that this encapsulates all forms of collusion, any type of trespassing or trying to undermine the statute itself.",
"The chief purpose, I take it, of 16(c) of the section on evasion is somewhat allied to and in line with and a confirmation of the contents of this particular clause -- if this clause means as much as you seem to think it means. This is a question of evasion of tax. Why don’t you say so? If you’ve caught it under a subsequent section, which we will come to, so be it and that’s the way it ought to be.",
"This particular clause, it seems to me, is obfuscatory and it is difficult to disentangle what the intent of the section is. Certainly a clause of this magnitude with the weighty importance it must have for people involved in transactions, because of this gravamen, I would think the clause should be as crystal clear as you can get it with all the difficulty involved. This is very far from that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, one of the difficulties one encounters in trying to make something crystal clear is that he might very well limit it in its form and in its extent and make it all the easier to evade the payment of some tax by way of some artificial or unduly characterized series of negotiations.",
"The federal Act which is drafted in very similar language, as I read to the members, has been interpreted to cover all kinds of things, such as a series of corporate transactions which has been set up for the purpose of tax avoidance but which has been held to have been, I suppose, a form of tax evasion.",
"I think in the circumstances here the ministry, suspecting there was collusion or some kind of collusive action between the parties or that some kind of steps had been taken with the deliberate intent of artificially or unduly reducing the tax payable or avoiding it altogether perhaps, would make an appropriate assessment. Then, as I indicated, it would be up to the courts, by the procedures set out beginning with section 8, to determine whether, in fact, there had been some collusive action or whether, in fact, there had been some steps taken which artificially or unduly reduced the amount of the tax payable."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"In your law you do not often call upon the federal government in condemnation of your particular malpractices but when it suits your purposes you do so well. It seems to me that the casting of the net as broadly as that really means it’s a kind of regimen of terror because the Act is so defective, so full of loopholes and so difficult to construe in most of its provisions. You use it simply by way of blandishment or by way of an overall brolly held like a Damoclean sword, wavering above all the heads at once. Who knows, the sword may fall.",
"The way you’re going to keep them honest is not by well drafted and precisely structured legislation as to what the contour lines are, but by throwing the blanket so broadly that by way of confusion, by way of irrationality, by way of forfending and straight fear, you’re going to get this Act into operation and make it operative.",
"That seems to me a kind of perversion, a kind of way of doing things indirectly and by cross sections that you can’t do, or are unable to do, or haven’t done, so far as this legislation is concerned, in a direct, forceful, honest and intelligent way, and that’s the bringing into effect of a section like that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Sarnia."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to bring to the attention of the minister and all members of the House the fact that the minister seems to rely upon the efficacy and equity of section 55 of the Income Tax Act.",
"That section relates to the computation of income. It is worthy of comment, and I ask the consideration of our colleagues. That section begins: “For the purpose of this subdivision.” The subdivision that is related to is subdivision (b) of the Income Tax Act, namely, with respect to the computation of income. Basically the intent of the legislation there is not only efficacious but acceptable and equitable. What they are saying there, in effect, is if, through a scheme, you artificially or unduly create a loss of income, or increase a loss which already exists, or reduce the amount of a gain, then that affects the computation of your income.",
"The House of Commons understood what it was doing. They say, “For the purpose of this subdivision.” Subdivision (a) is the liability for tax. In other words, section 55 of the Income Tax Act does not affect the liability for tax. That is understood. Or they wouldn’t have put it in. They would have said, “For the purposes of this Act,” or they would have left out the preamble, “For the purposes of this subdivision.”",
"So I think we, as reasonable people, can assume that they intended only that the words “artificially or unduly” relate to the computation of income.",
"Here, of course, it is a much different thing. What you have done is plucked it out of the federal Act and applied it to the taxable value of land, which you define in your first section. What you are saying, in effect, is a much more onerous thing here. You are saying, in effect, that if, as the result of the disposition of designated land, you unduly decrease the taxable value of land -- and I am really worried about the word “unduly” there; artificially is one thing, but I am really worried about the word “unduly,” because, again going back to section 55, the word unduly did have application with respect to the computation of income. But what you are saying here now, by plucking out that statute, is that if you unduly create a taxable loss with respect to the disposition of designated land -- over which you might sometimes have no control at all, may I say -- then you are deemed to have disposed of it at the taxable value that it had, notwithstanding the loss that was suffered as a result of the disposition.",
"I see a distinction here, I really do. I don’t think you can pluck that section out and relate it to the taxable value of land. There is a distinct purpose, in the computation of a taxpayer’s income, to put those sections in, but you can’t affect a man’s right of disposal where there is an undue loss over which he might have no control at all. I think that’s really the concern originally expressed by the member for Riverdale. It is, in point of fact, an undue loss, but under this section you deem that the taxable value is as originally defined under your definition of taxable value.",
"I am worried about -- I use the phrase again -- the ability that you have to pluck that section out, because I can see the purpose of it in connection with the computation of income. I would be interested in the minister’s response and perhaps in the comments of other members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Riverdale."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I think the matter deserves a few moments’ further consideration. I am going to propose that we delete the section from the bill, and I will do that in a moment.",
"I share what the member for Sarnia has said, and what my colleague from Lakeshore has commented about, and also the member for Downsview, on this particular clause.",
"There may well be an appropriate reason, as stated by the member for Sarnia, for this kind of a clause related to that particular portion of the Income Tax Act of Canada, and I share the elucidation of it that he made for the minister’s benefit.",
"We are talking here about a different kind of taxing statute. This is a taxing statute which, above all else, must be clear, both because of the quantum of the tax which you are imposing in the one place, and secondly, because you are dealing with land.",
"It does not seem to me that you should place persons owning land in the Province of Ontario and their advisers in that position. We don’t need to add the adjectival description of their advisers. It’s legitimate in tax accounting and legitimate in tax law to advise people as to what they’re entitled to do. I do not think we should be a party to the land of law which will result in a tax lawyer or a tax accountant or an informed layman saying to himself: “I think what I am doing in accordance with everything else in the statute is perfectly all right, but I will never know, because somebody may be able to say, using these weasel words, that what I have done has artificially or unduly reduced the amount of the taxable value.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Even if you brought yourself under another section."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Yes, even if you had clearly complied with every other provision of the Act. The scheme was laid out; you knew exactly what you were doing. You were advised that this is what you could do. The tax lawyer or the tax accountant is always going to have to say: “My opinion is subject to section 6 of the bill, about which I am not going to express any opinion to you, my client.”",
"Taxable value, as the member for Sarnia points out, brings us right back to the definition section. Taxable value is quite straightforwardly defined in subsection (o) of section 1 of the bill which says:",
"“Taxable value” when used in relation to designated land means the amount by which the proceeds of disposition of designated land [and the proceeds of disposition is a defined term; designated land is a defined term] exceed the adjusted value of that designated land [adjusted value of the designated land is a defined term] and the taxable value of designated land shall be computed separately for each disposition of designated land.”",
"That’s the whole gut scheme of the Act. It seems to me that people are entitled to look to the very definitions which are involved in this bill. And I’m glad I’ve talked on at this length because I think I’ve got a clue as to the reasons for it.",
"It’s very interesting, as the member for Sarnia said, that in the Income Tax Act they are talking about the computation of income. As everyone knows, despite the fact that it’s called an income tax Act, the word “income” is not defined, nor really is the word “profit,” nor really is the word “loss,” except in contradistinction to profit. There are multitudinous ways in which people can compute their income in accordance with accounting principles. I can see, on balance, the revenue needs the protection under the Income Tax Act with respect to that kind of ordering of very complicated accounting affairs. This is not designed to be a complicated Act. This is designed to provide clear definitions in the definition section and those definitions have to stand or fall by themselves.",
"I do not think that it is within any concept of political economy in terms of taxing philosophy, as we understand it, that you can then give the minister the determination, which is really what you’re doing. Ultimately the matter may go to a court, if it’s disputed. But in the initial instance we’re saying if the person, the transferor, can be said to have acted “under circumstances such that he [the transferor] may reasonably be considered to have artificially or unduly reduced the amount of the taxable value of the designated land,” it’s the minister who is going to make that determination in the first instance. He is the one who is going to say that --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Subject to appeal, of course."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Yes, that is right. I don’t think that in this kind of a taxing statute the revenue needs that protection. If you find that there are loopholes, you have to do what they’ve had to do in the Income Tax Act and other taxing statutes; you’ve got to come in with the amendment to close the loopholes. But you cannot have this kind of weasel language here, which means that you would vitiate in a very real sense the very definitions over which we laboured for many hours in this committee, trying to make them clear and understandable.",
"Well, if we are not making any progress with the minister, all I can do, assuming we have five members in the opposition benches, which we do happen to have, and if we have their support, is to move the deletion of section 6 of the bill."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"We’ll just vote against it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Yes, vote against it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Obviously I can’t accede to that. To remove that section would, of course, wipe out the Act so far as the right of the minister to look at any of these transactions and to make an assessment is concerned. I would suggest to the members that maybe that’s what the NDP would like, but that is not what the Liberal Party would want and it’s not what we want."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Of course they do."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I might observe that one of the clearer cases that would be dealt with under section 6, apart from collusion, which I think is quite clearly within the four corners of section 6, is the matter of, say, the renovator who perhaps artificially inflates the bills which he alleges he has paid for renovations in a house in order to achieve the 20 per cent figure. If the minister determines that those have been artificially inflated, then, of course, he would make an assessment accordingly.",
"That’s the kind of thing we are talking about in section 6, and it’s essential that that be part of the bill. Without it, you could forget about the bill. So I would have to oppose any such suggestion that we not approve section 6 and would certainly urge the members to approve it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"I want to say, if I may -- I am not going to belabour the argument -- that it is indeed unfortunate that the minister doesn’t do us the courtesy, and I don’t mean this personally, of even responding to our comments as to the technical application of these words in the context of the words of the Income Tax Act, because there is a distinction there. I am going to exaggerate for clarity --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"All right. I heard the member. May I just apologize to him? I intended to respond --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"I am not going to make the argument again."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"All right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"I am going to exaggerate for the sake of clarity. A man has a hotel worth a quarter of a million dollars; it burns down. Okay? He collects the insurance. The designated value as of valuation date is a quarter of a million dollars. He then sells the land for $100,000.",
"I want to read the section, as I understand it. It says:",
"“Where the result of one or more sales, exchanges, declarations of trust, or other transactions of any kind whatever is that a transferor has disposed of property under circumstances that he may reasonably be considered to have ... unduly reduced” --",
"The court is called upon there to say whether he in effect reduced the value. Again, I tell you, I just exaggerate for the sake of clarity; I don’t think any court in the world would say that that’s where the distinction comes between the Income Tax Act of Canada, where it says for the purpose of computation of income, not for the purpose, as the member for Riverdale says, of arriving at a defined thing, namely, taxable value.",
"The situation in that exaggerated example is that he is disposing of land that has unduly depreciated as far as taxable value is concerned. Maybe he is not the author of it, and perhaps that is where he extricates himself from this section. Perhaps it’s a poor example, but that basically is the type of factual situation that we worry about -- and we don’t worry about it when you are arriving at a computation of that undefined term called income."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I don’t know whether the illustration given by the member for Sarnia is a good one or not, because the act of God situation may very well take him out of that kind of operation of section 55; it might take him out of the operation of this section. But that is not the kind of circumstance one would anticipate this section to be basically applicable to --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"There’s only one act of God around here and that is the act of the minister."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"-- just like section 55, which doesn’t impute a criminal intent to the taxpayer. It simply says, “We consider what you did to be not a proper course of action, in trying to moderate or reduce your taxes to the minimum, and so we will call it an avoidance rather than an evasion.” It simply provides in subdivision (b) for adding back the adjusted amount into the taxpayers’ income for the purpose of computation of the tax assessable under subdivision (a), I think it is.",
"I think the analogy here is fairly close to that situation. We are saying, “Look, for whatever reason we think that you have reduced the taxable value of the designated land we are making an appropriate assessment which you may appeal in the normal channels through the courts.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"All those in favour of section 6 forming a part of the bill, please say “aye.”",
"All opposed please say “nay.”",
"In my opinion the “ayes” have it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"No stacking."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Call in the members. Stack it? Do the hon. members want to stack it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"No, don’t stack it.",
"The committee divided on the motion that section 6 shall stand as part of the bill, which was approved on the following vote:"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Clerk of the House",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman the “ayes” are 53 and the “nays” are 29."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"I declare the section stands as part of the bill.",
"Section 6 agreed to.",
"Section 7 agreed to.",
"On section 8:"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Section 8?",
"Order please. On which subsection?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Pardon?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"On which subsection?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"I just want to hold the section."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Any comments, questions or amendments on any subsection of section 8? If so, which one?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"I’m concerned about subsection 4."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Anything before 4? Subsections 1, 2 and 3 then shall stand as part of the bill. The member for Riverdale on subsection 4."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Why does the minister have to have, under subsection 4, a wide-open right, at any time that he considers reasonable, to assess or reassess any tax payable by any person under the Act? Why isn’t there some limitation period, as there is in any other normal, reasonable taxing statute?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"With the qualifications the member applied I’m not sure whether he’d allow me to refer to some of our other taxing statutes or not. But I might refer him to the Gasoline Tax Act, that has, I believe, an identical section to this. It is simply this, Mr. Chairman, one never knows how long, particularly with real estate, these matters may remain without anything coming to the attention of the ministry.",
"For example, under a deemed disposition by way of merger or amalgamation it might be years before something of this sort came to the attention of the ministry. Therefore it is not at all appropriate that there should be a time limit."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Let me say that it is appropriate. One of the things which they at least tried to do in the Carter commission and under the Income Tax Act was to define the situations under which assessments were closed and final. I don’t care what the time limit is that the minister may choose to put in, but there should be a time limit where, in cases of bona fide good faith and no fraud or misrepresentation by the taxpayer, the matter should be over, done with and terminated.",
"There is just no excuse for the minister thinking that he can have it just the way he wants to have it every time. Surely a taxpayer is entitled at some point, in the absence of fraud or misrepresentation on his part, to know that the matter is final and closed and if whatever tax was eligible has been paid, that’s the end of it; if no tax has been levied, that’s the end of it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Shall subsection 4 of section 8 stand as part of the bill?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"No."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"I just want to make a comment."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The member for Sarnia."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"The problem -- to the minister, through the chairman -- is that not only is there a tax liability but this statute goes further. This statute claims a lien with respect to a tax liability.",
"The member for Riverdale is quite right. As you know well, there are specific times for doing things under the Income Tax Act. There are specific times for assessment, for notices of objection, for appeals, for the right of the government to assess, or to reassess, for that matter. But superimposed upon that fact is that here the minister attempts to give himself, without restriction, a right to reassess a taxpayer at any time that he wishes. You’ve got the problem of the fact that there continues to be a lien in connection with any tax liability.",
"I wonder if the minister would comment with respect to that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, if a lien has been released, as it would be in a normal transaction, then it can never arise again. So that problem doesn’t come up.",
"I recognize that it may look rather high-handed in the general sense of an assessment being made. But suppose a misrepresentation has been made, suppose -- as I mentioned to the member for Riverdale -- there is a case of a merger or amalgamation in which there is nothing on the registry records to trigger the matter coming to the attention of the ministry. This kind of thing, therefore, simply cannot be subject to a time limit."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"Section 56(2), is it? I don’t know whether it is or not, I’m not going to look at the statute -- always gave the Minister of National Revenue in connection with a fraudulent misrepresentation --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Yes, he can go in anytime."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"He can go in any time he wants to. That’s all the member for Riverdale and the rest of us are asking. You don’t cloud the taxpayer with what, in effect, is an eternal burden. You let him know what his position is. If he has been fraudulent, then you say fine, we’ll go in. But why not do it in that manner?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, the minister, under section 7, says that where there is a refund, if it isn’t applied for within three years, you can’t get it back. But now, where a mistake has been made and he doesn’t limit it to fraudulent mistakes or criminal mistakes or deliberate mistakes -- any kind of a mistake -- the minister may at any time go in.",
"Does that mean that people are compelled to keep their records forever? It isn’t reasonable. Surely you can limit that in the same kind of concept that the Income Tax Act is limited. Where everyone has acted in good faith, or where the taxpayer has acted in good faith and there is nothing criminal about it, then there should be a time limit.",
"Take the minister’s own time limit of three years where he says he won’t pay a refund unless you apply for it within three years. If the minister is going to be consistent, why doesn’t he give a refund at any time? Probably because he would find it would be very inconvenient to keep those records ad infinitum. Why then should a taxpayer be expected to keep his records ad infinitum if he has acted honestly?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, my answer is essentially the same. We have no way of knowing, under this section -- unless I were to try to set out the kind of offence that we are talking about -- I think I have no way to know whether a time limit of, say, seven years or 10 years or 15 years, is at all realistic. Certainly for many of these transactions it would be.",
"I would think that if a taxpayer wanted to be reassured that there would be no liability, he could make application after X number of years if he wanted to toss out his old records.",
"But there may well be cases that couldn’t come to the attention of the ministry for many years following the time of disposition or deemed disposition. I’m in no position where I can suggest any kind of date that would be a practical period. Certainly not a short period of time like three years."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Where does the minister find any authority in the Act that allows a taxpayer to apply for permission to discard his records? All you say in subsection 4 of section 8 is: “The minister may, at any time he considers reasonable, assess or reassess any tax payable by any person under this Act.” Theoretically you could come in 10 years later and say: “Oh, I guess you have to pay another tax. Send us $100,00 plus interest at whatever per cent payable compounded over the last 10 years.”",
"It doesn’t make sense. It isn’t fair. It isn’t logical. It isn’t in keeping with the scheme set down by the minister himself for a payment of refunds. You just want everything your own way in this Act. You want to be able to do anything at all at any time that you deem is reasonable. We just voted on in section 6 the power to override the provisions of other sections. Now you want the power to go in and reassess at any time whether there is fraud or connivance or deliberate avoidance or anything at all. It is a bad, bad section."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Does subsection 4 stand as part of the bill?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"No."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Those in favour of subsection 4 standing as part of the bill will please say “aye.”",
"Those opposed will please say “nay.”",
"In my opinion, the “ayes” have it.",
"I declare subsection 4 as part of the bill.",
"Subsection 5? Any comments, questions or amendments on the later subsections of this section? If so, which section; if not the rest of section 8 shall carry.",
"Section 8 agreed to.",
"Section 9 agreed to.",
"On section 10:"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Section 10; any comments, questions or amendments on any of those subsections? If so, which subsection?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Yes. Let’s look at the scheme under section 10, the appeal section from the minister to the courts, bearing in mind section 8(4) where the minister may at any time he considers reasonable assess and reassess. Then after the minister has given notice required by subsection 3 of section 9, the person who has served notice of objection may appeal to the Supreme Court:",
"“... but no appeal under this section shall be instituted after the expiration of 90 days from the date on which the notice has been mailed to such person under subsection 3 of section 9, and an appeal under this section shall not be made to the divisional court.”",
"Let’s presume under section 8(4) the minister has reassessed seven years after the date. Then he sends out a notice to somebody who may or may not be there at that time, who may have moved and may have had six different mailing addresses since.",
"The minister has discharged his obligation by putting a letter in the mail. Once the letter has gone in the mail with the assessment, there is no appeal to be instituted after the expiration of 90 days from which the notice has been mailed. Is that fair? Bearing in mind that you can come in anytime you want, and presumably you are going to mail it to the last known address, you can come in, say, seven, eight, or 10 or 15 years later and reassess, then you have discharged your obligation and eliminated the right to appeal if you put a piece of paper in the mail whether it is delivered or not.",
"Why shouldn’t there be service on the taxpayer if you are going to do it, or at least mailing by registered mail with proof of service or something of that sort? Surely the taxpayer is entitled to have some kind of notice, keeping in mind again, and I can’t overemphasize this, section 8(4) allows the minister to come in at any time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"We are dealing with an appeal following the notice of objection filed under section 9(1). Mr. Chairman, we went by that section. It says:",
"“Where a person objects to an assessment [and I am reading from section 9(1)] under section 8, [and that is what we are talking about] ... within 90 days [of the assessment he has to serve the minister with notice. Then under section 10] After the minister has given the notification required by subsection 3 of section 9, a person who has served notice of objection under section 9 may appeal to the Supreme Court.”",
"So each one has a period of 90 days."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Shall this subsection stand as part of the bill?",
"Subsection 1 agreed to."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"Why do you not make any provision for interest to be paid on a refund order?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Which section is the hon. member referring to there, Mr. Chairman?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"Subsection 7 says:",
"“The court may dispose of an appeal by allowing it, by dismissing it, or by allowing it in part and directing the minister to vacate the assessment, vary the assessment or reconsider the assessment and reassess as indicated by the judgement of the court.”",
"Subsection 8:",
"“In delivering judgement disposing of an appeal, the court may order payment or refund of tax by the appellant or by the Treasurer as the case may be ...”",
"The minister has provided for the taxpayer to be responsible for interest. In the next section, for example, if any payment is made pursuant to the Act, the payment is for interest first. Why doesn’t the minister consider paying the taxpayer interest if he has improperly assessed him?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I have a provision in the section dealing with abatement of a refund which provides, as the hon. members will have noticed in section 7, for interest at such rate as may be established, I think. Let me just take a look at this.",
"No, I haven’t -- at least I don’t see it there. But it had been my expectation that interest would be allowed at a modest amount on any moneys that were repaid, Mr. Chairman. I may be thinking in terms of tax paid under protest but I can’t put my finger on it right at the moment."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"Do I take it that the minister is sympathetic to the concept of interest where there has been an erroneous assessment and payment of tax?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Yes, I am, Mr. Chairman. In fact I have been reminded that section 22(2)(i) provides for the establishment of the amount by regulation and that’s what I had in mind. I was looking around for it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Shall section 10 then stand as part of the bill?",
"Section 10 agreed to."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I was looking at the wording to make sure that -- I am sorry to take your time -- I was making sure that the wording was covered under not only a voluntary refund but a refund pursuant to an order of the court.",
"Section 11 agreed to.",
"On section 12:"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Section 12. There are a number of subsections here. Any comments, questions or amendments on any subsection? If so, which one?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"I would think the member for Downsview would be interested in this section."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"I am, Mr. Chairman."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Which subsection?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Section 12(1):",
"“Any person authorized by the minister for any purpose related to the administration or enforcement of this Act may at all reasonable times enter into any premises where any business is carried on or any property is kept or anything is done in connection with any business or where any books or records are or should be kept ... --”",
"Would that, in the minister’s opinion -- I know it is the opinion of many lawyers -- allow the minister to come into any legal office and run through books and records and documents without any particular authorization? Is that what the minister contemplates under this section?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, if that’s where the records are to be found, that would be one of the areas in which doubtless the inspection would take place."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"The minister is not concerned at all about solicitor and client privilege and/or the extent to which persons authorized by the minister may examine legal files and the right of a solicitor to make available to persons authorized by the minister the books or records of accounts or so on of the taxpayer who happens to be the client? Is the minister not concerned with solicitor and client privilege?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Yes, I am, but I don’t think that this would intrude on the solicitor-client relationship. I raised the question, I remember, when we had the same sections in the Land Transfer Tax Act and I am advised that this has been tested and found to be not contrary to the solicitor and client relationship although, as a lawyer, I had cause to wonder about that myself. It is not so much communication between the solicitor and client as records of the client dealing with his transaction, Mr. Chairman, and I think that’s where the distinction lies."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Shall section 12 then stand as part of the bill?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"I trust the minister respects the solicitor’s lien in those circumstances before you take the thing away. You pay the boy before you take off with the boodle.",
"The section, if in no other way, I suspect, offends against certain nostrums of the greatest panjandrum of them all, McRuer. You make no provision, as I remember him making provision, with respect to private dwelling houses. He said that no search and no entry of a private dwelling house ought to take place without judicial authority. As far as this section is concerned, you see fit to ignore that particular injunction. I wonder what consideration you have given that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I’m sorry, Mr. Chairman, but I didn’t follow the hon. member. What we were talking about in the earlier documents, if I can try and grasp what he’s saying -- and I was looking at subclause 1(d) at the bottom of page 19, if that’s what the hon. member is directing his attention to."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"You are way ahead of me."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"The auditor or investigator would be there lawfully at the time, that wouldn’t be a problem. Is he talking then about entry under other auspices; as for example with a search warrant? Or as in another case in which he suspects there may be documents and he has to descend upon them and seize them without being there in the normal course of auditing."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"No. What I’m directing my remarks to is two sections as I remember it, in McRuer’s recommendations. In section 12, subsection 1, you say: “For the purposes of enforcement and administration of this statute at all reasonable times authorized persons may enter into any premises where any business is carried on or any property is kept.” I’m saying have you given sufficient attention, have you really adverted to the injunctions of McRuer with respect to entering private dwelling houses? He says without judicial authority that ought not to be done."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I would agree with his observations, but here in the opening paragraph of subsection (1), just paraphrasing the last two or three lines, we’re talking about “or any property is kept or anything is done in connection with any business.” I think one would have to assume that would be a business property and not a residence. It is not necessarily the case though, but it is probably broad enough to cover entry. Remember again it would be entry not by way of breaking down a door. This would be entry during normal business hours."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"Why not breaking down a door? I don’t see anything in there saying he may not break down the door."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson (Victoria-Haliburton)",
"text": [
"Nothing there says you should either."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"Well, the presumption is that --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. E. Stokes (Thunder Bay)",
"text": [
"Break down the door if necessary, but not necessarily break down the door."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"We haven’t worked our way through it yet; we’re still talking about section 12, subsection (1). If we can just jump for a moment to subsection (4), it says:",
"“The minister may, for any purposes related to the administration or enforcement of the Act, with the approval of a judge of the Supreme Court [and so on] ... upon ex parte application, authorize in writing an officer of the Ministry of Revenue, together with such members of the [OPP] or other peace officers as he calls upon to assist him and such other persons as are named therein, to enter and search, and if necessary by force ...”",
"That section is the one which contemplates having to enter any place, including a dwelling house no doubt, for the purpose of seizure of documents. What we’re talking about here under 12(1) is entry by permission I would say; and that could, by the general wording of 12(1), I expect cover a dwelling house."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"That’s precisely my argument. One of my favourite words, as you probably know, is nugatory. The first part, subsection 1 obviates, overcomes and renders nugatory the provisions in subsection 4. You are giving real cognizance to the McRuer nostrums in subsection 4; that’s what he was talking about. This is where you go to the court and where you get your authority to enter. I take it this is not just in a context of force where that is necessary, but as they say it the other way, as my friend just said it, if necessary by force, as the section reads.",
"You don’t really have to resort to or utilize the provisions of subsection 4. There would be a context in which you would no doubt do so, but not only may you enter but under clause (d) subsection 1 you may seize and take away in a certain context.",
"I don’t think that seizure and taking away runs contrary to McRuer, by the way. I think when you do find suspicious circumstances you would be justified in doing so. But my feeling with him is that where a private dwelling house is involved, the overriding rule in the matter is that the utilization of subsection 4 would be very much in order. I would suggest that perhaps the minister would give some consideration to altering your legislation to the extent of giving recognition to that particular principle.",
"Many dwelling houses have certain commercial uses or certain business uses. Many of us have dens or studies or whatnot in which we keep books of account, in which we do even maybe a bit of doodling in the legal line. In that particular way I would hate to think that a fairly fundamental premise in British law is being obviated by this section as it presently stands."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Any further comments?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I was just going to observe, Mr. Chairman, that the subsections 1 and 4 really contemplate different circumstances.",
"Subsection 1 deals with the rather normal audit that might be conducted of a builder’s offices and that sort of thing. When the auditor is in he may come on documents which it is necessary for him to seize. Otherwise, if he goes away to get a warrant to authorize him to take them he may find when he returns with the warrant that the documents or records are no longer there. Paper being paper, it is reasonably easy to dispose of it. So he has to have the authority under subsection 1 to take the documents with him having found them in the first place and being lawfully there.",
"Then subsection 4 is the case where he may have some notion that documents are elsewhere and he may have no right otherwise or no opportunity to get in to inspect or to seize those documents without triggering the reactions that would inevitably result in their being spirited away or altered or destroyed.",
"So the two subsections really deal with different circumstances."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"I think when we are drafting sections of this kind some attention should be paid by the draftsmen and by the minister responsible -- in no elaborate way -- to spelling out the circumstances and context in which the various sections would be used, particularly the penetrations of privacy such as these sections envisage.",
"A little of what the minister said in good sense just a few minutes ago should be spelled into the course of the section itself, because that ain’t the way it is. You don’t have to resort to 4, at all in most contexts, it seems to me. You simply ignore 4 and may never utilize it, no matter what the situation is insofar as it suits your purposes, because you have already overridden it in effect in the previous subsection. That’s a lamentable situation, and all the good faith in the world is not going to prevent us from writing arbitrary and even quasi-dictatorial powers into legislation, such as is being done in this context."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Shall section 12 stand as part of the bill then?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"No, I am sorry. Could I just mention for a moment or two subsection 6 of 12 -- this is where you are supplying copies. It says: “May cause to be made one or more copies thereof”. Then it goes on to say that these documents as certified by the minister are admissible as evidence in court.",
"That’s fine, you don’t have to produce the originals, I suppose, unless they are directly called for by the judge in court. Does that envisage -- it doesn’t say so but I suspect it may -- that copies, if you are going to retain the originals for a while, may be supplied to the individual for whom they were taken? Or is it envisaged that you are going to give the originals back and keep the copies? Or just what does it look into?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I expect it covers all of those, Mr. Chairman. It might be that the taxpayer needed his books back in order to be able to carry on, or it might be that they were required in some other court for some other purpose. It would be unfair to requisition those books, seize those books from him and hold them to his operating detriment when all that is necessary is that appropriate legible copies be available. Pursuant to this section, as certified by the ministry they may be used in the court proceedings as though they were the original."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"I think we should document all this and make little summary notes and headings -- do it up in flowered print and send it to the judges of the courts of Ontario. Then they would know what we really want to do.",
"Section 12 agreed to.",
"On section 13:"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Any comments, questions or amendments on section 13 in any subsection; and if so which one?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"Section 13(3)."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Is there anything before 13(3)?",
"The member for Lakeshore."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"My penetrating comment on this particular subsection is, what has the minister got in mind in bringing forward this subsection? You are talking about remedies here and then you go off on some elongated tangent:",
"“... remedies provided by this Act for the recovery and enforcement of the payment of any tax are in addition to any other remedies existing by law, and no action or other proceeding taken in any way prejudices, limits or affects any lien, charge or priority existing under this Act or at law in favour of ...”",
"What are all these other remedies you are talking about? What have you got in mind?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, the basic remedy would be the lien, I suppose."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"Right. That’s pretty clear."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"All right. There may be cases, however, in which the minister has, for good reason at the time, perhaps released the lien and accepted an undertaking from the solicitor acting for the vendor to pay the amount of the tax assessed to be due. It may turn out that, for whatever reason, the counsel who receives the money does not remit the proceeds.",
"This is the section which would permit the minister, the Crown, to recover the money from the party who received it. It would enable him to recover any other assets which it would not, by the law, have set off against any other moneys which might have been collected for, say, corporation tax. There may be all kinds of ways in which the ministry could recover the amount of the money besides the normal procedure for recovery and the normal sources of the money one would anticipate under this Act. This simply gives the authority to recover in any direction in which the moneys may be available.",
"Section 13 agreed to."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Are there any comments, questions or amendments to any other section; if so, which one?",
"On section 14:"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Section 14, Mr. Chairman, is the garnishee section. Is there any limit? I can’t see anything, in any of the subsections, on the amount that may be garnished. Am I reading this correctly when I suggest you can garnish the whole of the salary of a taxpayer in default?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"Garnish the whole salad, not the whole salary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"You send a garnishee notice to an employer on account of an employee who is a defaulting taxpayer. Do I read this correctly when I conclude you can take the whole of his salary, ad infinitum, until the tax is paid? He will have nothing left to live on or are the other statutes relating to garnishee procedures --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I cannot imagine that this would take priority over the Wages Act -- is it? If my memory serves me -- which places a limitation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Why didn’t you say so?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"In any event this is not just aimed at that. It’s aimed at the general liability of one person for money owing by him to the taxpayer who owes it to the Crown. If there is any impediment on the payment of that money, of course those impediments would apply."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Why don’t you see what your official said in the note and see who is right?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Shall section 14 stand?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"No, Mr. Chairman. As a matter of principle I am opposed to the garnishment of wages under any circumstances. I don’t think people earning wages are the kind of people this Act is designed to catch. I’m going to oppose and ask that we record a vote on the garnishment of wages provision in subsection 6 of section 14."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Shall subsection 6 stand as part of the bill?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"The minister said he can’t imagine that other legislation wouldn’t prevail. Can you tell us the basis on which you can’t imagine that because it seems to me this Act prevails?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I’m advised that the Wages Act does not apply to the Crown which would mean that, technically, the whole of the wages would be eligible. As far as I’m concerned I would never approve that sort of thing. It happens that that is a standard section in all our taxing statutes. I would like to take a look at that some day and determine whether we can’t impose a limitation in accordance with the Wages Act for the reasons which would be evident to us all. I don’t think we can very simply do it in subsection 6. I would want to take a look at that another time, which I will do."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"I get very unhappy when the minister stands up and says, “I certainly would never act in that unfair way.” Not that I question what the minister is saying but who knows how long he is going to be the minister in that portfolio or have the authority to say it? I don’t know how complicated it would be if you wanted to write an exemption there into subsection 6. Why don’t you stand subsection 6 down and see if you can use some accommodation?",
"Some very zealous officer who can act in your name might not even consult you about it. The minister tells me he’s got 35 to 40 officers he is appointing, all of whom can act presumably without consulting him. Anything the minister can do can be done by one of his officers, eh? So, an officer without even consulting the minister could go in and grab all of somebody’s salary without leaving him enough to live on. I don’t know what you are going to achieve by that. He’s going to stop working, that’s the first thing you are going to achieve. Why can’t the ministers stand subsection 6 down to work out an amendment."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Yes. Mr. Chairman, are we down to subsection 6 now?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"We are at subsection 6."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"We have passed the other five subsections?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Yes. That’s my understanding."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I would agree to standing subsection 6 down until 8 o’clock tonight --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Very good."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"-- because I think that it should be appropriate to have some words in here such as “subject to the provisions of the Wages Act” or however we would refer to that. I will look at that over the dinner hour anyway if the members would prefer."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"That shows a commendable degree of flexibility."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"I understand all other subsections are carried then, and subsection 6 shall be stood down until later this evening.",
"On section 15:"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Any comments, questions, or amendments on any subsection here?",
"Section 15 agreed to.",
"On section 16:"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The member for Lakeshore."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"We are back to this evasion bit here, just for a moment or two in any event. It’s the business of “every person who has made, participated in, assented to or acquiesced in the making of a false or deceptive statement” required under this Act, or the regulation, is going to be subject to these fairly onerous penalties.",
"First of all I would like to know from the minister whether -- not that it justifies it -- but out of what particular legislation this was extracted? Doesn’t he feel that that is very widely drawn indeed? I can imagine anyone who made a false statement being caught under this matter. I am still very much concerned throughout this legislation with the onus and weight that you are placing upon solicitors not acting for the vendors or transferors who are the beneficiaries of the profit to be made out of land speculation. It is upon the lawyers and the individuals acting in the purchaser’s capacity.",
"What on earth would be deemed to be acquiescing in, how wide that net is cast, what it really means? That kind of wording, it seems to me, can get a man in jail by merely blinking his eyes if he looks nonchalant --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Oh, no."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"-- or shrugs his shoulders wrong on some particular afternoon. It may be taken very well that he has acquiesced in, or is making a false representation. I would ask that that be given some consideration too. The wording is just too blunt and too wide and has that kind of generality in a penalizing section that may involve many innocent people and very grave consequences."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, this section is again very similar to the one such as in our Gasoline Tax Act and others of like nature. The Income Tax Act, I am advised, has similar provision. There are all kinds of people who I suppose would say, “Well, you know. I sort of went along with it.” They are cloaked with the same kind of culpability as the person who actually perpetrated the misrepresentation that eventually resulted in the charge being laid under this section. I would suggest it is not too broad. It is consistent with other practices in our taxing statute."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Shall section 16 stand?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"I want to say to you that you talk about the culpability of a person who has been involved collaterally. You’ve covered that with the words, “made, participated, assented to or acquiesced in” but the key ingredient the member for Lakeshore talks about is the lack of the word “knowingly.” There doesn’t have to be any intention on the part of the person who contravenes the section. All you have to do, for the sake of rendering him liable to the punitive aspects of this statute, is prove that it was done.",
"You amended section 3, as far as the obligation of the solicitor is concerned, to make him liable to it only if he knew there was an obligation with respect to the tax. I’ve sent back my copy of the Income Tax Act to the library; I’m sorry I did. What is so unattractive about using “everyone who knowingly has”?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, we are talking here about a false or deceptive statement. If one makes, participates in the making, assents to or acquiesces in the making of a false or deceptive statement surely he knows? I think it would be redundant in that section to suggest we say, “knowingly makes, participates in, assents to or acquiesces in the making of a false or deceptive statement.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"Supposing I take an affidavit of exemption --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I’m sorry?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"Supposing I, as a commissioner, take an affidavit of exemption? I’ve participated in -- and I don’t know that I have participated in -- the affiant knowingly making a false affidavit. I am a commissioner; I participate in the making of the affidavit."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"You are not making it; you are taking it or swearing it but you are not making that affidavit."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"He’s acquiescing."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"You say I am not participating in the making of it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Not in that sense."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"I tell you, the problem, again, in connection with this, Mr. Chairman, is the obligation we keep putting upon people. I’m not saying for one moment that you or your officials are going to interpret the statute in this way. I’m saying to you that, as far as concerns the interpretation of the clear, unequivocal, unambiguous wording of that, if I swear an affidavit, if someone swears an affidavit to me, I am participating in the making of a false affidavit.",
"To begin with, the affidavit can not be made without the affirmation given to the affiant by the commissioner and if he is not participating in it -- again I use it as an exaggeration for the sake of clarity and so you understand the word “knowingly” should be there. To begin with, you only want to punish people who have been involved in this type of conspiracy or overt wrong-doing who knew they were being involved in it. Is there an onus which the word “knowingly” puts in that makes it so unattractive?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I think ‘‘knowingly” is redundant. I think, though, that if a commissioner for oaths were to swear an affidavit by his client when he knew that affidavit to be false he would himself be guilty of an offence -- not necessarily under this section but he would be guilty of an offence under the Commissioners for taking Affidavits Act. In any event, he would certainly not go scot-free."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"Can I just say one thing? I am sorry. Look at conspiracy, in (d) -- “conspired with any person to commit any offence described in clause a, b or c.” Conspiracy is an agreement by one or more persons to perform an illegal act."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Two or more persons."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"I am sorry, two or more persons; quite right -- by two or more persons to commit an illegal act.",
"It is absolutely essential that a person involved in that type of thing knows he is involved in it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I know."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"I can’t for the life of me understand why you’re not attracted to the word “knowingly.” It is in many other punitive statutes and sections."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"It is interesting that you use “willingly” in (c)."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"That’s “wilfully.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"Even if you held that the solicitor would not be deemed to be participating in this making of a false affidavit, in the sense that you use it, I think the member for Sarnia is perfectly right on straight English parsing and semantics alone. The term “acquiesce in” is of such vague and universal import, what does it really mean “to acquiesce”? That he was there? That he seemed to go along? What was he going along with?",
"He swore the affidavit, he wasn’t aware what the contents were or, if he was aware of what they were, he didn’t know them to be false. Nevertheless, he was there and on the wording you have here, I think on strict, literal, golden rule interpretation, he’s had it if you really wanted to put the blocks to him. You don’t want to do that in terms of legislation or any other way.",
"If you find the word “knowingly” not to be unpalatable to you but simply think it’s redundant, might you not bend a little in this particular context because we don’t think it’s redundant; at least I don’t. I think it is very pertinent indeed to what could flow as a criminal penalty arising out of this particular statute. If it’s not going to offend you, please put it in."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I simply repeat it would be redundant. My advisers have confirmed that my interpretation of this is correct and it would be simply redundant to put it in. But if the members want to put it in, I suppose -- I can see the concern that some would have. The member for Sarnia wants to make sure that if he’s participated in the swearing of a false affidavit when he had no knowledge that it was false, he wants to be very sure he’s not going to wind up before the discipline committee, if not otherwise involved in a court action under this section."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"Yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I would suppose we could do this. I’m just wondering where I would put it -- whether I would put it right at the beginning or whether one would say, “made, participated in.” I suppose if you are going to put it in at all it goes in at the beginning."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"Why don’t you put it in there?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"It would be, “Knowingly makes, participates in, assents to or acquiesces in the making of a false or deceptive statement” and so on."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"You don’t have to make it present tense; “Every person who has knowingly ...” Okay?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Then it would apply to all four subsections."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"We could say, “Every person who has made, knowingly participated in.” Okay? Because “assenting to” and “acquiescing to” --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"To come back to the member’s suggestion, he might find that somebody interpreted taking an affidavit as having participated in the making of it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"No; he must knowingly participate in the making of the false statement."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I think it would be incorrect to put it in the lead line of sub 3."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"Why don’t we leave it --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I think if we put it in at all it would be, “knowingly made, participated in, assented to or acquiesced in the making of ...” It’s redundant but --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"That’s right. That’s the way it should be done."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"-- I think it will probably take care of the situation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Does the minister so move then?",
"Hon. Mr. Meen moves that subsection 3(a) of section 16 be amended by adding the word “knowingly” ahead of the word “made” where it appears in the first line.",
"Motion agreed to."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"Congratulations."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"The minister shows immense flexibility.",
"Section 16, as amended agreed to."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"The minister is becoming so flexible if we don’t watch it we are going to get through this bill today. Who knows?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"No, no.",
"On section 17:"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"On section 17, Mr. Chairman --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The member for Downsview."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"-- why should there be as long a time as six years to lay an information? Surely the offence should be ascertainable reasonably quickly? The minister has all these powers and all these officials and if he’s found something wrong why should he be allowed six years in which to lay an information? How long should the sword hang over the errant taxpayer’s head? Shouldn’t there be some finality? That’s what I was arguing about earlier, but I didn’t convince you."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I agree there should be some finality and I think six years is a good period."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Why six years? Why not three years?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Put the onus on the government."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Yes, but why not three years?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Put the onus on the government."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"How did you pick six years? What’s the rationalization for it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Very easy, Mr. Chairman. It’s the same as in all the other Acts. I think if we were going to change this one, I would want to take a look at all of them. I think that six is a long time but I don’t think it’s too long. But that’s another matter that I intend to take a look at."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"When do you intend to take a look at it? After the statute has been passed?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"When I can get some time, when the legislation is through the House, Mr. Chairman."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"You should have thought of that ahead of time, may I suggest to you most respectfully. I want to say to you that I think the wording of this section restricts you too much. I agree that six years is too long but I understand the wording of this section, which is different from the limitation under most -- I don’t think the Criminal Code is in this particular fashion. Your problem here is that you are limited to six years from the factual situation having taken place or the offence having been committed, as I read this. Normally it’s from time of knowledge of the offence."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"No, this is when the information --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"No, I don’t think --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"“An information in respect of an offence against this Act shall be laid within six years of the time when the matter of the information arose.”",
"All right, let’s just for the sake of -- here is the way I like these sections to go -- an offence takes place in 1974. Your statute barred in 1981, even if knowledge didn’t come to you until 1981, as I read this, whereas it should --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"No, I don’t think that’s true."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"No? Well, that’s fine. I want some help on this, because the way it should be is that the limitation period should begin to run from the time that the Crown was aware of the factual situation --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Which could be forever."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"-- which created the offence."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"You’ve got forever plus six years, as I read it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"No, but not the way this section reads. This section reads that from the time when the offence occurred -- not when it came to the attention of the minister."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"That’s right. That’s right. You agree with me?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I recall that under the Land Transfer Act we had a similar section, with three years in. I think it was the member for Riverdale that suggested we increase that to six years. I’m wondering if under these circumstances -- in which some of these things may be just a little nebulous -- whether six years is adequate for the information to be laid. This is for the prosecution under section 16 -- not the recovery of the money for which there is no time limit, as we discussed earlier. This is the laying of the information out of which might arise a prosecution under section 16.",
"I’m wondering -- prompted by the member for Sarnia, and I’m thinking out loud here -- whether it wouldn’t be appropriate to have this from the time when the matter came to the attention of the minister."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"That means forever plus six years. Is that what you are saying?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"No -- potentially. That is the other side of the coin. Are we going to have that sword of Damocles hanging over the head of the malfeasant forever plus six years? That’s the other side of the coin."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"It is obvious my colleague and I don’t particularly look upon this the same way, but I really feel that if there is an infraction of the statute, then limitation periods don’t run against that infraction until the Crown is aware of it. There’s nothing inequitable about that. I must say I don’t regard it as a sword of Damocles."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Oh, I do."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"If he’s done something wrong then he is entitled to look at the fact that there might be some prosecution of him for it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Shall section 17 stand as part of the bill?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I have a point on this that I want to share with the minister at 8 o’clock.",
"It being 6 o’clock, p.m., the House took recess."
]
}
] |
May 28, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-28/hansard-1
|
POINT OF PRIVILEGE
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. J. White (Treasurer and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I rise on a matter of personal privilege. For the first time since being elected to the Legislature in 1959, I feel compelled to take this step because of a clear case of suppression of information which is unique in my experience. The essence of my complaint is summarized in the following telegram which I sent to Mr. Pierre Juneau, chairman of the Canadian Radio-Television Commission yesterday, Sunday:",
"“DEAR SIR: I HEREBY REQUEST THE CRTC TO CARRY OUT AN IMMEDIATE PUBLIC INVESTIGA- TION OF THE CANCELLATION WITHOUT NOTICE OF THE PROGRAMME CALLED PROVINCIAL AFFAIRS SCHEDULED FOR SATURDAY NIGHT, MAY 25, WHICH WAS RECORDED BY ME THURSDAY AFTERNOON, MAY 23. SINCERELY, JOHN WHITE [etc.]”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon (Leader of the Opposition)",
"text": [
"What was the quality of the programme?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. S. Lewis (Scarborough West)",
"text": [
"I did a Provincial Affairs programme during the federal campaign."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. V. M. Singer (Downsview)",
"text": [
"Was the Treasurer using four-letter words?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"Having cancelled my comments on public spending, the CBC enabled the Minister without Portfolio (Mr. Timbrell) to record a broadcast on the subject of youth on Saturday morning, and this was broadcast over part of the Ontario system that evening. This obvious control over programme content on a free-time political broadcast is intolerable in a democratic society.",
"So that hon. members will have available to them the information contained in the cancelled broadcast, I am tabling the script which is also being made available to each member of the Legislature and the press gallery. The principal point, it will be noted, is that federal expenditures, which are increasing this year by at least 22 per cent, are a most important cause of inflation. What is not mentioned is that the CBC budgetary --",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Oh, well, this is a Provincial Affairs broadcast. The Treasurer should learn to be a little more scrupulous. He was wrong essentially but it was a public contribution."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"-- estimate is increased by 25.1 per cent over last year."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. Shulman (High Park)",
"text": [
"Shame!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Further to the point of order made by the Treasurer, I presume it’s a point of order --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"It is not a point of order. I must point out that the hon. Treasurer had risen on what he termed a point of personal privilege."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Oh well, if it is personal privilege, then I won’t involve myself."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. L. Bernier (Minister of Natural Resources)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I am sure that the hon. members are aware that the city of Winnipeg is in the midst of celebrating its centennial celebrations, and I know that they would want to join me in welcoming 41 students from three public schools in the city of Winnipeg, Cecil Rhodes School, General Wolfe School, and J. B. Mitchell Public School. They are sitting in the west gallery. They chose a visit to Toronto as their centennial project because it has so many cultural interests. I would point out to the hon. members that the funds for this very long and very expensive trip were raised solely by the members of the class themselves."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. Cassidy (Ottawa Centre)",
"text": [
"They come from a good NDP province."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. T. P. Reid (Rainy River)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, it’s my privilege this afternoon to introduce to the House some 23 students from St. Mary’s School in Fort Frances in the great riding of Rainy River. I might say, Mr. Speaker, that they travelled farther to get here than you would travel if you went to Halifax on the east coast. I would like you to join me, sir, in extending a very warm welcome to them this afternoon."
]
}
] |
May 27, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-27/hansard-1
|
POINT OF ORDER
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"On a point of order, sir, now that the federal writ has been issued, can you tell me if it is proper or possible for an announced candidate in the federal election to sit in this House?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Raid",
"text": [
"We don’t blame him for leaving the ship."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Why, does the hon. member want to join him?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"To the best of my knowledge there is no reason why the hon. member cannot sit in this House at this time."
]
}
] |
May 27, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-27/hansard-1
|
POINT OF PRIVILEGE
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I would like to raise a point of personal privilege -- well, perhaps I should say a point of privilege. I bring to your attention, sir, that on Friday last the Minister of Housing was asked a direct question on housing policy, which he refused to answer on the basis that a full statement would be made in the House today concerning the housing action programme and its implications and applications. He then apparently left the House, and in answering questions put to him by a Globe and Mail reporter, gave just the information that would have been of pertinent application to the discussion of the time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Shame."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"I put to you, Mr. Speaker, surely it is the minister’s responsibility to respond as best he can in this House to questions directed to him personally as the minister, rather than to refuse to answer and then to give the information outside the House to the press. I would like to put to you, sir, that surely this is a breach of our privileges here as members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Some hon. members",
"text": [
"Right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. S. B. Handleman (Minister of Housing)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, may I respond to the hon. member’s point of privilege? First of all, I want to say quite clearly that the only reason the Globe and Mail reporter was able to get me was because I was in the process of providing information to the hon. member which he had requested concerning the Nappan Island subdivision, and I happened to be in the lounge. I did not divulge any figures whatsoever to the Globe and Mail reporter; those figures had been obtained by the Globe and Mail reporter prior to his encounter with me."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Some hon. members",
"text": [
"Oh, oh."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"That’s even more shocking."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Further to the point of order, I wonder if the minister then can account for his reported statement that he had co-operation from the other ministers, such as the Minister of the Environment (Mr. W. Newman), to lower the water quality in those areas subject to so-called housing action so that higher counts or lower qualities would be acceptable under those circumstances. Surely that’s a specific piece of information that would concern us here."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"It seems to me that to permit this to continue in any way would simply constitute a debate. Perhaps the information sought by the hon. member might be better placed as an oral question during the question period. I don’t really see that there is any point of privilege, nor was there a point of order, in connection with the hon. minister’s refusal to answer a question. The statutory provisions of the standing orders do not indicate that the minister must answer. He may or may not answer."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"On the point of order, Mr. Speaker, surely it is my right and, in fact, my responsibility, to bring to your attention, sir, in case you missed it, the fact that the minister refused to answer questions in the House and then went out and answered questions to the press in the hall --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"That’s not entirely true."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"-- and I feel this is an abdication of his responsibility."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"What is at stake here is the methods of the Globe and Mail."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Of course, I am not responsible for the action of the ministers of this House.",
"Statements by the ministry."
]
}
] |
May 27, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-27/hansard-1
|
HOUSING PROGRAMMES
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I am today tabling Housing Ontario/74, a comprehensive statement of the policies, programmes and partnerships that my ministry has developed in response to the housing needs of the people of this province."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Especially if they earn more than $20,000 a year."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"In addition to statements of policy and descriptions of programmes, it analyses in considerable detail the nature of the present housing situation as perceived by the ministry. It is my hope that a clearer appreciation of the nature of the problem will lead to a greater understanding of the steps being taken to implement effective solutions. Our initial housing policy and programmes will obviously undergo changes in emphasis and direction as conditions change.",
"Mr. Speaker, we accept that adequate housing at affordable prices is a basic right of all residents of Ontario."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Not all residents."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"We will not be satisfied until that goal has been achieved."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Housing for the rich is the government’s policy."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"It will not be achieved with one magic programme and it cannot be achieved by the government of Ontario alone. That basic fact should be understood."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"But it has the key responsibility."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Our housing goal can only be achieved with the co-operation and involvement of our major partners -- regional and area municipalities; the federal government; the building industry; and the public at large.",
"Each of these partners has a vital role to play and the role of each is described in this statement. For example, we are asking our regional and municipal partners to:",
"1. Prepare and submit to the Ministry of Housing annual statements of housing policy which include specific objectives, production targets. and financial arrangements;",
"2. Accept housing as a high-priority matter and especially to accept a reasonable share of the additional housing required to accommodate people of low and moderate incomes;"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Pretty earth-shattering so far."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Three. Work with the province in cutting red tape by simplifying and speeding the plans approval process."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"We’ve heard that somewhere before."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Quite a housing policy."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Four. Participate with the province in defining realistic servicing, developmental and occupancy standards and in removing restrictive regulations;",
"5. Implement the uniform building code when passed by the Legislature."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)",
"text": [
"When passed by the Legislature."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Six. Mount strong new initiatives which will take full advantage of the programmes available to rehabilitate older housing and to renew deteriorating neighbourhoods;",
"7. Foster actively the development of non-profit community-sponsored housing.",
"8. Investigate and initiate, if feasible, land assembly programmes which will ensure an orderly flow of developed land in the years ahead.",
"To assist local governments in discharging these responsibilities and to ensure that they do not incur unwarranted financial burdens as a result of accelerated housing production, the government of Ontario has increased its financial aid to municipalities through a number of channels.",
"This year’s budget, for example, increased per capita grants to regional governments by 12.5 per cent; total direct transfers to local governments were increased by 12 per cent and grant enrichments of $124 million will hold local property tax increases to an average of 3.2 per cent, instead of the 10 per cent that would otherwise have occurred.",
"My ministry has moved even more directly to provide housing-related financial assistance, including: At least $20 million in the facilitating fund of the housing action programme, which will be distributed as unconditional per-unit grants and as interest-free loans to cover capital costs of new infrastructure to those regions and municipalities that accept housing action areas."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"That is old."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"And $10 million in grants to municipalities participating in the Ontario home renewal programme."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"That is old, too."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"As well as $75 million in new low-interest funds for the Ontario Mortgage Corp. --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"That is in the estimates."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"-- bringing our total mortgage portfolio to more than $300 million.",
"Four million dollars in support funds for community-sponsored housing."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"That should solve the housing crisis overnight!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"As a further assistance, I am today announcing a $1 million policy development fund to assist local governments to prepare positive statements of housing policy and to strengthen and develop official plans and zoning bylaws in ways that will facilitate the housing production process."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"We don’t need any more statements. We need houses. Let’s have a new minister. It is about time for a new minister."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, these are new funds. Added to the many millions of dollars --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. E. M. Havrot (Timiskaming)",
"text": [
"Why doesn’t the member listen and learn something?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"-- earmarked under existing programmes, such as the HOME programme --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Learn what? This was all in the Comay report eight months ago."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"-- rent supplement and others, they constitute a substantial new thrust toward achieving our objective.",
"For our part, Mr. Speaker, my ministry has already taken steps to speed the administrative and approval processes that will give force to municipal policies and programmes for housing.",
"The plans administration division, in the first four months of the existence of the Ministry of Housing, reduced by up to 30 days its average time for processing and approving subdivision plans, zoning by-laws, severances, official plans and other matters of that nature."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Who believes that?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"In the first quarter of this year, the division released more than 23,000 housing units for registration --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Nobody who has had to push the pieces of paper."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"-- compared with about 11,750 units released in the first quarter of last year."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"That just goes to prove they were inefficient last year."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"When added to the lots draft-approved last year, there are 80,000 housing units draft-approved in Ontario but not yet registered. In summary, subdivision applications are being made at a record level and the approval process is producing commitments to approve twice as many residential units as are being used for development and doing so without a reduction in planning standards."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"The number of starts is declining because of the mortgage situation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have touched on only a few of the highlights contained in this statement.",
"While the document is comprehensive, it cannot deal with everything related to housing. For example, we are now engaged in a number of imaginative programmes involving tenants more fully in the management of major public housing communities and actively seeking their advice on a broad range of housing issues.",
"In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, you will see from the document that the Ontario government will have a direct involvement in some 31,000 of the anticipated 100,000 to 110,000 new housing starts for 1974. As significant as this is, the impact will be even greater next year when some of the newer programmes come fully into force.",
"I urge all members to study this document closely and to accept their share of the responsibility that we have to provide adequate housing for all residents of Ontario at prices they can afford. Thank you, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Oral questions.",
"The hon. Leader of the Opposition."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"That is a complete cop-out. There is no housing policy."
]
}
] |
May 27, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-27/hansard-1
|
HOUSING PROGRAMMES
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Yes, Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Housing if, in fact, his statement with the programme appended to it -- the programme that we have not yet had a chance to read, but which we read about over the weekend -- will do anything to the housing starts in this province, other than maintain the figure at something close to what it might have been if, in fact, the government had not meddled with the housing policies at all?",
"Is it not true that the expenditures referred to in this statement -- and there is only $1 million referred to that hasn’t been referred to previously in the government statements -- will not even balance the confusion that has been introduced into the housing market and the servicing of land by new legislation that has been brought before the House and is still being debated here?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, we thought it would be constructive and helpful to the members to gather together all of the programmes which have been announced over the past several months to show the members exactly what this province was doing --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Well, they could have got that on the CBC programme."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"If the hon. members have been doing their reading over the weekend and last week they would have found that the Province of Ontario is more deeply involved in the housing programme in its jurisdiction than any other jurisdiction in Canada and probably in North America.",
"Interjection by an hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"A supplementary: How can the minister square his statement on page 6 where he says, “and doing so without a reduction in planning standards ... ” with the quote in the Globe and Mail where the minister, with pleasure, says: “The Ministry of the Environment has been particularly helpful by allowing temporary sewage plant overloading, allowing a lowering of water quality.” Surely the minister can’t be proud of that method in allowing the approvals to go forward?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I don’t believe I spoke about water quality. I did say that some of the standards had been relaxed temporarily to permit us to take care of what is a more urgent priority at this time without any lasting damage to the ecology. There is no way this government, having set those standards in the first place, is about to turn its back on the establishment and the maintenance of high standards of planning, environmental protection and all the other things that many members have been complaining about as slowing up the process."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"A supplementary: Would the minister say, since he is relaxing water quality standards, that the standards were too high in the first place? The Minister of Housing is moaning, but it is he who said that he is relaxing water quality standards."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"He is in pain -- intellectual pain. He has been thinking."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I didn’t say anything about relaxing water quality standards. I did say that certain temporary overloading of plants might be allowed by the Ministry of the Environment in order to expedite a higher priority at this time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)",
"text": [
"What does the minister call that except lowering?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"There is no statement, whatsoever, Mr. Speaker, that we are about to lower standards. All we are saying is that there are certain priorities that have to take effect now --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. P. G. Givens (York-Forest Hill)",
"text": [
"They shouldn’t overload them."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"-- and that the standards which have been established by the Ministry of the Environment are being looked at with the possibility --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"It is of negative benefit."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"-- of assisting people to enjoy the basic right, which we say is theirs in this statement."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, may I ask if the minister is aware that six weeks after the introduction of the speculative land tax Act in this province, for the first 25 days in May the average house sale price in Metropolitan Toronto, including the lower priced condominiums, was $58,437 per unit, representing a jump of 8 per cent in one month? And how does that square with the 60 per cent of the OHAP units, which the minister is going to make available at the average price, namely $58,437? And who is going to buy them?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, first of all the land speculation tax is tied almost irretrievably into house prices by the hon. member. We have said that it has been one of the factors which have had an effect on housing markets."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"That was the minister’s idea."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"That was the minister’s argument."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"That is why the minister brought it in."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"However, the member’s misunderstanding of the OHAP again surfaces by saying that 60 per cent of the units -- and I almost lost him completely -- would be sold at an average price. We have made it quite clear, Mr. Speaker, that we are embarking on agreements with the developers which would result in concessions to the consumers of housing in Ontario. As soon as those agreements are signed, we will be bringing it before the House in a major announcement."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"When?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Downsview is next."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"In view of the fact the minister states on page 52 of his document, Housing Ontario/74: “In reality this document is an initial statement of policy of action and will be overtaken by new and expanded policies and programmes reflecting new needs,” can the minister tell us when we are going to get a programme that will really produce housing at prices the people can afford to pay?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"It will be overtaken by the passage of time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, that is one of those questions the hon. member is prone to make."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"No, the minister made it. I read his statement."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"In fact, the programmes which have been announced, which we are embarking on and which we are continuing, have done what the housing action programme or what the rest of these --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Oh, come on!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"-- programmes is intended to do, which is to meet the needs and to satisfy that basic right of the people of Ontario. Of course, this government will always be embarking on new programmes as the need arises."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Or announcing them."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. E. Stokes (Thunder Bay)",
"text": [
"Nobody can afford the government’s programmes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"A supplementary, Mr. Speaker: In view of the fact that according to the minister’s own statistics four-fifths of the families in Ontario earn less than $15,000 a year, what proportion of the lots and other programmes being made available by the ministry are going to be directed to that group and what proportion of general housing starts will be directed to people earning less than $15,000?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, we have explained time and time again that the Province of Ontario has an involvement in approximately 30 to 35 per cent of the anticipated starts and that our involvement is entirely dedicated to those who are in the low- and moderate-income groups.",
"I would quarrel with the hon. member’s assumption that, because in the programmes which we have announced today in this statement there is a certain percentage devoted to the low-income group, the others will not benefit by the expedition of starts. There will be new housing coming on to the market which would not otherwise have come on without this province’s involvement and everyone in the province will benefit, including the 80 per cent who are in the low- to moderate-income area."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Supplementary?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"There have now been five supplementaries. I am sure the hon. members will agree that’s reasonable. Does the hon. Leader of the Opposition have further questions?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"I was just going to ask about development in the Waterloo region, in the 3,000 acres right in Mr. Speaker’s backyard."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"In that case, I think it would be in order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As a further supplementary, I would like to ask the Minister of Housing if in Housing Ontario/74 there is any plan to take the land in the landbank in the Waterloo region, amounting to 3,000 acres in the backyard of the Speaker himself, to service that land and make it available for utilization by the expanding community there, along with the 1,000 acres in Brantford and certain other large areas in the landbank across the province?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, Housing Ontario/74 is a statement of the ministry’s programmes and policies for 1974. As I have already told the hon. member, we do have long-range landbank facilities and investments in the province."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"We need it now."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"But there is no new commitment in this statement."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"We are certainly in- tending to expedite them as quickly as possibly. However, major servicing is not done overnight. The hon. member knows that as well as anybody in this House."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. Leader of the Op- position."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"The minister can’t do it overnight but he has to start.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
}
] |
May 27, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-27/hansard-1
|
ASSISTANCE FOR FLOOD VICTIMS
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Chairman of the Management Board, in the absence of the policy secretary who made the announcement on the funding of flood relief. Can he inform the House what funds are going to be made available for flood relief by the Management Board -- at least what is budgeted? Is he speaking for the government in this regard, still convinced that a dollar-for-dollar matching policy is going anywhere to meet the need of the flood ravaged area of the Grand Valley, where the damage is expected to exceed $10 million, and one estimate is as high as $15 million?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the request or the funding on it to be implemented has not yet been placed before Management Board. I, therefore, cannot answer the question in regard to dollars."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"A supplementary -- and I know the minister will like this: Since there is some confusion as to the application of federal funds and the only statement that we have had from the ministry is a request that the federal government involve itself in this assistance, would the minister either make a statement himself sometime this week or have one of his colleagues make a statement, indicating just what the total available funding programme will be, since there is a great deal of confusion, certainly in the Grand Valley connected with this, and the confusion and criticism are directed against both senior levels of government for not treating the matter as seriously as it obviously is to those citizens who have suffered the damage?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I deny that we are not treating the matter seriously. When the options have been considered and when the policy is at hand, we will announce it."
]
}
] |
May 27, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-27/hansard-1
|
UNION GAS
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"I have a question of the Minister of Labour."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. D. C. MacDonald (York South)",
"text": [
"Minister emeritus."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Pro tem."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Pro tem or ex.",
"By the way, can he tell us how the Union Gas negotiations are proceeding? I am informed that many of the gas heating facilities that were flooded just a week ago are still not started up because of the Union Gas strike and the situation there; and it is really contributing greatly to the hardship in the area."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. F. Guindon (Minister of Labour)",
"text": [
"Of course the hon. member knows, Mr. Speaker, that talks have been going on for 11 straight days between the parties. I can inform the hon. member that another meeting has been set up for tomorrow, and I can go so far as to say that the climate around the bargaining table is good."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"The what?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon",
"text": [
"The climate."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"The climate."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"The climate; oh, well."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"It is the ambiance that is friendly; there’s a nuance there. They are drinking together."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Scarborough West."
]
}
] |
May 27, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-27/hansard-1
|
HOUSING PROGRAMMES
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, a further question of the Minister of Housing: How does he take any pride at all in a statement which admits categorically, for the first time I must say, that the housing starts in Ontario in 1974 will be significantly fewer than the number of housing starts in Ontario in 1973? And this, as I understand it, means that all of the programmes this minister has concocted and manufactured cannot maintain pace with last year."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"That’s right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Havrot",
"text": [
"You asked that same question last week."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I don’t think there’s any admission anywhere that the number of housing starts will be significantly lower."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"The facts speak for themselves."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"By the intervention of the government of Ontario, in fact, housing starts will be maintained at their previous record high level; and we have shown that this is in fact in excess of the need caused by immigration and new family formations; therefore there is no admission of any kind in the statement,"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"By way of supplementary, does the minister not recall -- I think it’s on page 35, it’s hard to read and absorb immediately -- that he says there will be 100,000 to 110,000 housing starts in Ontario in 1974? If memory serves me last year there were 110,573; and if memory serves me further, knowing these pronouncements he will fall significantly short, by five to 10 per cent, of production last year."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"That’s right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Now how is it that all these programmes can’t maintain the level of last year?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Havrot",
"text": [
"Well have you lick the problem."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I don’t accept the 500. If we wanted to round it out I suppose we could say we’re exactly in line with last year’s record starts."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"It will be 100,000 or less next year."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"In fact last year’s record starts were in excess of new family formations and immigration, and therefore in excess of the new population."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Well so what? The government is way behind."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"A supplementary: Surely the minister would agree that with the funds he’s been talking about and the concern in the Legislature and across the community, attempting to simply meet the record last year is inadequate? He’s supposed to be aiming well above that in order to bring some relief to a situation which is a crisis."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"No, Mr. Speaker, we don’t consider it to be inadequate. What we say is that there has to be a better mix of housing to meet the needs in a greater measure of those in the low and moderate income groups. If we meet last year’s record and change the mix of housing we will in fact be meeting the needs of those who were left wanting last year."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"What does the minister mean by mix?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Supplementary, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for High Park was up first; a supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Can the minister explain why for the first three weeks in May the number of real estate transactions signed in southern Ontario is down by 72 per cent from the equivalent period last May?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Well perhaps, Mr. Speaker, we could again do a little bit of breast beating, which we’ve been castigated for by the hon. member for Scarborough West, and say we should be hanging our heads instead. What’s happened in fact is there are far more listings than people can sell, and as a result prices are starting to drop."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"But nothing is selling."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. A. Renwick (Riverdale)",
"text": [
"Nothing is selling, that’s right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The prices went up $4,000 per house."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the buyers have slowed their buying; and thank goodness for that, because if that type of inflationary spiral had kept going prices would have zoomed out of sight."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"There are fewer houses available at higher prices."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The minister is putting his head in the sand. They’re going up $5,000 a month."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Who is advising the minister?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Ottawa Centre."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"A supplementary, Mr. Speaker: The minister has spoken about improving the mix of housing. Is he aware that half of the people in Ontario’s major cities are tenants; and can he explain why his housing policy has said nothing about improving the supply of housing to people on moderate incomes who are tenants, thereby easing the financial squeeze? Particularly when his own documents indicate that 73 per cent of people earning under $5,000 pay more than a quarter of income for shelter; and that 50 per cent of those earning up to $8,000 and 25 per cent of those earning up to $11,000, pay more than 25 per cent of their income for shelter; why is there not a single word in this whole document about that problem? And why have the family housing starts under OHC dropped to an all-time low of 2,000, the lowest in almost a decade?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Well Mr. Speaker, many of those who are now tenants in Ontario, of course, will be benefiting by the expanded Ontario HOME programme. And of course if we increase the supply of housing, period, we will obviously have more housing for people to move into.",
"Our view is that if you expand the supply of housing over the measurable needs of the people of Ontario, that those who are tenants will benefit directly."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"A supplementary: Does the minister have any programmes --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"-- to benefit tenants who are now paying such a --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order. We alternate the supplementaries. The member for York Centre."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. D. M. Deacon (York Centre)",
"text": [
"A supplementary: I cannot find anywhere in the minister’s programme a measure to prevent an added tax burden being imposed wherever low and moderate income housing is approved by a municipality. Why does the minister not persuade regional municipal governments to adopt or to approve such a kind of housing by the practical method of creating a tax support to ensure they don’t have to pay additional taxes?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I can hardly criticize the hon. member for not having had time to read this and digest it, but certainly in the statement there is an outline of the financial measures which we are taking to stabilize the taxes in those municipalities which do, in fact, accept housing action."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Supplementary?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"There have been five supplementaries, which I believe is reasonable. The hon. member for Scarborough West."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, this mountain has produced such a mouse in this statement, I want to pursue it further."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order please. I just suggested that five supplementaries was sufficient."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Well, I am asking a new question, Mr. Speaker, although it is related. It is on housing, I quite concede."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I am sure the hon. member will find a way to make it a new question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"It’s not very difficult at this point in time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Havrot",
"text": [
"He is an expert on that."
]
}
] |
May 27, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-27/hansard-1
|
HOUSING PROGRAMMES
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"I want to ask the minister how it is that he can bring in a programme -- which he describes as being for low-and middle-income families -- which will eliminate from eligibility virtually 1.3 million families in Ontario, whose incomes lie below $15,000 a year -- 1,288,000 families to be exact -- and whose proportion of the total housing market will not increase substantially since the total number will not increase at all?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I don’t quite follow the hon. member’s question.",
"There is certainly no suggestion anywhere in this statement that we are eliminating those under $15,000. In fact, the entire thrust of the programme is designed to benefit those people who are under $18,000, including those under $15,000 and down to as low as $8,000 and $9,000.",
"Our other programmes, of course, are designed to take care of those who are below the economic housing limit, but I certainly don’t see that we have eliminated the people under $15,000."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"By way of supplementary, surely the minister recognizes that if his total housing stock remains around 100,000 units and he is altering the mix only marginally, then the 1.3 million families in Ontario who earn less than $15,000 a year -- 1973 figures -- by and large will have no new market from which to buy; they will be as excluded in 1974 as they were in 1973."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I don’t accept that this is a marginal change in the mix. When a government involves itself in 30 to 35 per cent of the total supply, I think it is much more than marginal. Obviously this is going to have an effect right through the income spectrum."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"A supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Apart from 1,100 rent supplement units and 2,000 rent-geared-to-income family units, what other steps is the minister taking in order to help those people who are tenants, who cannot afford to buy, and the 60 per cent of families which earn less than $11,000 or $12,000 a year?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, we are rapidly embarking on an expansion of our integrated community programme, our rent assistance programme. We are certainly not heedless of the needs of the people in the lower income groups."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Yes they are."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"This government has always been most active in that area."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The government has done nothing."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"We are now looking at an expanded supply and in our view the expansion of supply will benefit everyone.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"There is no use expanding the supply of houses without covering the areas of greatest need."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Does the hon. member for Scarborough West have further questions?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Yes. It should be called Mishap, not OHAP, and the minister knows that."
]
}
] |
May 27, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-27/hansard-1
|
ALLEGED AIR POLLUTION FROM METAL COMPANIES
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Can I ask of the Minister of the Environment what is he going to do with the lead pollution in downtown Toronto now that there is yet another child admitted to the Sick Children’s Hospital with a blood level well above the tolerable point?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman (Minister of the Environment)",
"text": [
"As the hon. member knows we are doing the monitoring down at Canada Metal right now --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"I am sorry, I cannot hear the minister."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"We are doing considerable monitoring down there. We have the subcommittee of medical people working on it, and we also have the other committee that has been appointed under the Ministry of Health to study effects of lead on children. We anticipate the latter committee will report to us the third week in June."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"By way of supplementary, does it not worry the minister, bother him, concern him, that children should be admitted to the Sick Children’s Hospital regularly, intermittently, while his tests continue, because he has set a tolerable level of lead emission which is clearly above the danger point? Would it not be possible for him to lower it now, arbitrarily, to remove eventual hazards while he is deciding on his programme?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"Our emission level at this point in time, Mr. Speaker, is five milligrams per cubic millimetre of air, and we feel this standard is satisfactory. Our monitor reading in areas outside of the plant area is above this at the present time. We are aware of that. The equipment has been put in, and we have studied it very carefully. In the last month there has been a very minor decrease in the reading since the abatement equipment has gone in.",
"When those cases have been brought to our attention, we have also worked with the Ministry of Housing, through the Ontario Housing Corp., to try to offer alternative accommodation to those families."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"A supplementary question of the minister: Does the minister say that the lead in the ambient air, or whatever the phrase is, was higher than his ministry’s standards at the present time?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Newman",
"text": [
"I said that now that the abatement equipment is in place at Canada Metal, our readings over the past month have decreased slightly from what they were before; there has been just a very slight decrease, and it is going to take a little more monitoring before we can get a true reading. This committee is also studying this as well as the other reports."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"If he will permit another supplementary, just before the matter that the minister clarified, which I did understand, did he not say that the level was higher than the level set by regulation by the Ministry of the Environment?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"The monitors outside of the plant area are, yes; the readings are slightly higher, depending on the wind, the dust factor and the other factors in the area. But, as far as we know, the actual emissions from the stack within the plant come within our criteria."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"A supplementary: Would it then not be permissible for the minister to do what his predecessor tried and failed to do, that is, shut down the operation until he can be assured that the levels are within the limits he set himself?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"There is no way we can shut down the plant at this point in time until we have some more statistical information. We’re waiting for this committee to report in the third week of June."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Does the hon. member for Scarborough West have further questions?"
]
}
] |
May 27, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-27/hansard-1
|
HOSPITAL WAGE CEILINGS
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Does the Minister of Health have anything to report on the Woodstock General Hospital situation or related hospitals in southwestern Ontario?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. F. S. Miller (Minister of Health)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, perhaps the question would be better asked of the Minister of Labour because I understand there are some steps being taken through his ministry to assist in getting the workers back on the job in Woodstock."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"By way of supplementary, is the minister aware that when definition is sought from hospitals -- I have two here, the Oshawa General Hospital and the Memorial Hospital in Bowmanville -- as to where they stand on contracts with their workers, the answer invariably is that they’re waiting to hear from the government about the explicit interpretation of what was done in Toronto? Has his ministry indicated to each individual hospital what it is it would wish?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, if there was a general solution that could be applied to all hospitals, I think the letter we sent to all hospitals would have implied this. Of course, this is not so, because the contracts of hospitals are at different levels and in different states.",
"We sent out a letter, immediately following the Toronto settlement, indicating to hospitals that they did have a right to look at all aspects of cost, including labour, and to discuss changes with us, and that we were willing to entertain changes in their budgets based on reasonable demands. This is in the process of happening right now. We’re trying to leave these decisions, as they properly should be left, with the hospital boards involved, rather than with our ministry."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Does the hon. member have further questions?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Only if the Minister of Labour wishes to add anything."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Before I call on the hon. member for Rainy River, the Minister of Colleges and Universities has the answers to questions asked previously."
]
}
] |
May 27, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-27/hansard-1
|
NORTHERN ONTARIO MEDICAL STUDENTS
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. J. A. C. Auld (Minister of Colleges and Universities)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, on May 17 the hon. member for York-Forest Hill asked me to explain the chronic dearth of educational facilities, particularly pertaining to medical facilities, and I indicated I would get the figures.",
"In 1966-1967 there were 293 first-year places in medicine in the various medical faculties around the province. In 1973-1974 there were 575 places, which is an increase of 95 per cent. By 1980 it is planned to have a further increase to 670 first-year places.",
"Tying in with that same question of medical facilities, the hon. member for Cochrane South (Mr. Ferrier), again on May 17, asked if the government would adopt a policy of establishing a medical school in northern Ontario. At the time I said this was a very costly undertaking and I would get the figures. It would appear that a bare minimum of 64 students is required to establish a medical faculty. The cost of this is approximately $85 million in terms of 1973-1974 dollars and the annual operating costs of a new medical school would be about one-third of that, which would be about $25 million to $30 million."
]
}
] |
May 27, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-27/hansard-1
|
REPORT ON CONESTOGA COLLEGE
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Auld",
"text": [
"Again on May 17, the member for Nickel Belt (Mr. Laughren) asked me what has happened at Conestoga College after the inquiry about the internal operations. I am informed the board of governors has studied the Porter report and that now a member of the faculty, a student and a member of the support staff attend meetings of the board of governors. Steps are being taken to develop a president’s council, composed of students and staff, for keeping the board of governors in contact with the college community.",
"The board has held one meeting to receive presentations from interested groups in the college on Dr. Porter’s proposals and probably implementation will await selection of a new president. The search committee, composed of students, staff and board members, has gone over a list of about 115 applications for the presidency and a select list of eight are to be interviewed; scheduling of interviews is now under way.",
"The board is satisfied it has heard all sides of the dismissal of two staff members and has rejected Dr. Porter’s recommendation they be reinstated."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The member for Rainy River is next."
]
}
] |
May 27, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-27/hansard-1
|
MINIMUM WAGE RATES
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question of the Minister of Labour.",
"I don’t blame him for leaving a leaking ship but I’d like to know what is going to happen to his proposals that he was to take to cabinet in regard to increasing the minimum wage, increasing Workmen’s Compensation pensions and other matters relating to the labour scene?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, this work has been done and there should be a statement made within days."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"This week?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"By whom?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"By the minister?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"By somebody? Yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"A supplementary, for clarification: Is the minister saying there will be a statement on both of these matters within days?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon",
"text": [
"Yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"On both the minimum wage and the Workmen’s Compensation benefit review? Will there be a statement on both matters within days?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon",
"text": [
"No, I was referring to the minimum wage, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Yes, I thought he was. A supplementary question: When will there be a statement with regard to the much-needed increase for Workmen’s Compensation recipients? Why doesn’t the minister do it now and use it as an election gimmick?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I don’t operate the way my hon. friends do."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Oh, no?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"No, he doesn’t!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Why doesn’t he just do it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Hasn’t he read the Treasurer’s broadcast?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon",
"text": [
"No, I have done all the homework and it’s a matter of government policy. Whenever this decision has been made by government, I am sure the minister will inform the House."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The member for High Park."
]
}
] |
May 27, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-27/hansard-1
|
DUFFERIN MALL LIQUOR STORE
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"A question of the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations, Mr. Speaker.",
"Has his ministry yet solved the mystery of the several cases of empties which one of the inspectors discovered a week ago last Saturday --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. G. Nixon (Dovercourt)",
"text": [
"Come on, get off that!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"-- in the Dufferin Mall store? Can the minister explain how one of the employees, in his efforts, no doubt, to make sure the material being sold was of high quality, sampled so much in the same store that he became involved in a brawl with a customer and ejected him?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. J. T. Clement (Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations)",
"text": [
"Which store was that? I want to get the right store. I wouldn’t want to give the member the wrong information."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Dufferin Mall."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"Which one? Dufferin Mall? I thought the member was going to ask about another store. I feel more relieved!",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Where was he?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"I wasn’t aware of this until it was drawn so forcibly to my attention by my friend from High Park but I’ll get into it and report back to him, Mr. Speaker. I just don’t know."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mrs. M. Campbell (St. George)",
"text": [
"The minister has to get into it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The member for Downsview."
]
}
] |
May 27, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-27/hansard-1
|
POLICE RAID ON HOTEL
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Solicitor General.",
"Could the Solicitor General advise whether or not he has investigated the raid carried out by a combined force of 55 to 60 Niagara Regional Police officers and Fort Erie detachment RCMP at a hotel called the Landmark Hotel, located at the Queen Elizabeth Way and Netherby Rd., wherein, apparently, an undetermined number of both male and female patrons were taken to the washrooms where they were ordered to strip off their clothes in order that a physical search of their persons could be carried out by the police; when they were found to be clean they were ordered out of the hotel?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"That’s “clean” in quotes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"What were they looking for?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Could the minister tell us if he has investigated that as well as the basis on which the raid was done, whether or not he feels the police activity should be investigated and what, in fact, he is doing about it?",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"What can one do with a 40-ouncer?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. G. A. Kerr (Solicitor General)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I am aware of the incident. I didn’t think it was quite as notorious as indicated by the member but I have asked for a report."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, by way of supplementary, since the event happened on May 11 and since the minister’s source of information apparently is a little better than mine -- I was reading from the Times-Review of May 15, 1974 -- could the minister tell us, since it is now May 27, how long it will be before he is able to make a full report to the House about what appears to be a most ludicrous and improper kind of police activity?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the problem is to find out why the particular raid was carried out in the first place and why it involved so many different police forces. This is the reason. I’m trying to gather information from a number of sources."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"How long will it take?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"I hope I will have that for the hon. member this week."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Wentworth."
]
}
] |
May 27, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-27/hansard-1
|
RESALE OF HOME PROGRAMME HOUSES
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question of the Minister of Housing. When will the minister be able to reveal the results of the OPP investigation into a number of complaints with regard to the resale of Ontario Housing homes originally sold under the HOME programme?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, that report obviously will be made to the Attorney General (Mr. Welch) who will then decide whether or not there would be any prosecutions. There will be no report made to me."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"A supplementary question: Can the minister ask the Attorney General in cabinet, if he attends there more regularly than he attends here --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Yes, ask him to come occasionally."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"-- what has been going on with regard to that investigation, since we can’t ask him as he is never here?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I would be pleased to commit myself to asking him, but not to telling the House."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"If the minister sees him."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Windsor- Walkerville."
]
}
] |
May 27, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-27/hansard-1
|
MUNICIPAL AND SCHOOL TAX CREDIT ASSISTANCE
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman (Windsor-Walkerville)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the provincial Treasurer. Is the Treasurer aware of the resolution passed by the city of Brampton recently and endorsed by Windsor city council, requesting that the ministry amend the municipal and School Tax Credit Assistance Act to increase the limits of such credit provided thereunder to the lesser of $300 or 50 per cent of the assessed tax? Does the ministry intend to act on this resolution?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I haven’t seen this resolution as yet, but certainly I will consider any recommendations from Brampton and even from Windsor.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"It is nearly as good as the Middlesex resolution."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Sandwich-Riverside."
]
}
] |
May 27, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-27/hansard-1
|
APPROVAL FOR BURN CENTRE AT WINDSOR METROPOLITAN HOSPITAL
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. F. A. Burr (Sandwich-Riverside)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Health. Does the minister recall that the Windsor firefighters are willing and ready to raise funds for a six-bed bum centre at Metropolitan Hospital in Windsor if approval from the ministry can be obtained? Has the minister a report on this matter?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, as a matter of fact, the burn unit in that hospital has been approved."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for York Centre."
]
}
] |
May 27, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-27/hansard-1
|
FAIR LEASING POLICY FOR RETAIL GASOLINE STATIONS
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"I have a question of the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations: In view of the fact that with the recent price increase in gasoline the actual margin available to retailers has gone down because the percentage return or gross profit has gone down with the increase in price and because the independent dealers have been prevented from increasing their percentage margin to where it was before because of pressure by the oil companies through the increased number of their own stations, will the minister introduce now a fair leasing policy or programme whereby lessors of gasoline stations can be assured a fair basis of tenancy with their oil companies?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the Ontario Petroleum Association, which is an association made up of major oil companies, and the Ontario Retail Gasoline Association together met with a member or two of my ministry present over a number of months from about last September or October until, I think, January or February of this year and those two associations between them developed a set of guidelines acceptable to both.",
"I will review those guidelines; I stress that I played no role in their development, other than to meet with the parties independently and provide them with some resource people from my ministry. I haven’t read them since January or February when the guidelines were reached. If it will serve any purpose, I will gladly re-read those series of guidelines developed by the two associations in an effort to answer the question directed to me here today."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"Will the minister introduce legislation to enforce such guidelines so that they are of some meaning?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"I have no response to that at the present time; I would have to see the situation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"I think it’s time the minister did."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for High Park."
]
}
] |
May 27, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-27/hansard-1
|
SCARBOROUGH HOSPITAL EXPANSION
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"A question of the Minister of Health, Mr. Speaker: Is it correct that he is going to allow Scarborough General Hospital to undertake a building programme at the same time that he is insisting that Mount Sinai and St. Michael’s and other hospitals keep wings shut?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"I don’t think that’s particularly true, Mr. Speaker. Just because I was speaking to one of the members for the Scarborough area it doesn’t mean that I’ve automatically approved a hospital wing for that area. I admit that’s what she was asking me."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Look at the smile on the member’s face."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Is it true? They think it is true."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"Hope springs eternal."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"A supplementary: Is the minister saying his ministry has not given approval to the hospital to go ahead?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, it is being a little confused. I’ll get my data later, thank you."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Kitchener is next."
]
}
] |
May 27, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-27/hansard-1
|
LAND SPECULATION TAX ACT
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, a question of the Minister of Housing: In light of the reported statement by Robert Henry of the Ministry of Revenue as set out in yesterday’s issue of the Toronto Sun, that confusion caused by the land speculation tax has “slowed real estate transactions down to a crawl,” would the minister care to modify his statement, made to us on Friday, that there is no confusion surrounding the tax?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"I don’t care to modify it at all, Mr. Speaker. I just don’t happen to agree with the man who made that statement."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"Talk to a real estate agent."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"The 1,500 lawyers who went to the meeting of the Canadian Bar Association thought so."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for High Park."
]
}
] |
May 27, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-27/hansard-1
|
HEALTH DISCIPLINES ACT
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"A question of the Minister of Health: Why has the minister refused the representations of the dietitians to be included under the Health Disciplines Act?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, obviously this gentleman is not keeping up to date. I’ve not refused the dietitians. I’m very willing to consider their request that they be included."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Are they to be included in the Health Disciplines Act?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"There is no positive decision either way, because we haven’t as yet decided on all the disciplines. But I clearly told the dietitians that because I rate nutrition as one of the most important of the preventive measures within the health field. I’m very willing to consider the dietitians as a group being included within the Health Disciplines Act, providing in fact they can determine which members of their profession should be in the group that we recognize. In other words, some of these organizations, like the psychologists, the dietitians and so on, are in a number of various parts of the industrial, private and public sector. Not all of them wish to be members of a health discipline, and this gives their own organization certain difficulties in determining which one should be and which one shouldn’t be. So I’ve thrown the challenge back to them in a sense, to tell me how they would be organized if they came into the health disciplines."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Rainy River."
]
}
] |
May 27, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-27/hansard-1
|
COST DIFFERENTIAL BETWEEN SOUTHERN AND NORTHERN ONTARIO
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question of the Minister of Natural Resources. Will the minister table in the House a report that apparently is on his desk, and has been for some time, in regard to prices in northern Ontario, gathered by the northern affairs people?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I see no reason to table this particular information, but if the member wants it, I’ll be glad to send it to him. It’s information that the northern affairs branch gathered all across northern Ontario. If the member would like a copy I’d be glad to give it to him."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"I appreciate that. A supplementary, if I may: Can the minister indicate if it showed that prices in northern Ontario were, in fact, around 10 to 15 per cent higher than they are in southern Ontario?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I wouldn’t want to say it varied that much, I have not had an opportunity to go into it in extreme detail, but I will be doing that in the next few weeks."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"A supplementary: As a result of the information contained in that survey, does the minister think it reasonable to approach the federal government to bring some rationale to the freight rates in northern Ontario, so that we can enjoy a decent standard of living?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, that approach has already been made to the federal government and, regretfully, the Minister of Transport, Mr. Marchand, because he is involved in a certain event that is going to take place on July 8, could not see me."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Ottawa Centre."
]
}
] |
May 27, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-27/hansard-1
|
HOUSING PROGRAMMES
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"A question of the Minister of Housing: Can the minister explain why no details were given to the House today of the housing action programme, when he expects to give information about his agreements with the municipalities, and what proportion of the 12,000 lots will be made available to families earning, say, under $15,000 a year?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, of course I will release details of any agreements that are arrived at as soon as they are signed."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Not an agreement arrived at yet? Not a one?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"There have been no agreements as of this date, except with some private people, and they cannot be released until the municipalities agree to them."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Wow. The minister has really been working, eh?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"By way of supplementary --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The member for Perth is next. Is it a supplementary?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. H. Edighoffer (Perth)",
"text": [
"No."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"By way of supplementary: This shabby digest of the Comay report aside, what about the interest rate factor which the minister was going to report on in the House and which relates directly to the Ontario housing action programme and whether or not any houses will flow from it at all?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I don’t recall undertaking to report to the House. I did say we were reviewing the mortgage market as it exists at present and as it has been affected by recent moves of the Bank of Canada, and that we were assessing its impact on the housing market as a whole --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Come on."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"-- and the housing action programme."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"Borrow money at nine per cent and give mortgages at six."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"The funds aren’t available and the minister knows it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Can the minister reply to the other part of my question, Mr. Speaker, which is what proportion of the OHAP lots will be made available to people earning under $15,000 a year? For that matter, what proportion of houses built to sell will be made available in the coming year to people earning under $15,000?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Earning under $15,000. There is a straight, very specific question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I can’t answer the second part of that question obviously."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Why not? It is the minister’s building programme."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"I have no control over the prices at which houses are offered."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"No? They are $58,000 on the average."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Under the housing action programme 10 per cent is our formula. That may not be the final agreement we reach with all developers."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Ten per cent? One thousand two hundred homes?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"But 10 per cent of houses will be sold under the HOME programme."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Ten per cent for 70 per cent of the population."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Thirty per cent will be sold to moderate income groups."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Moderate?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"And the remainder will have price rollbacks incorporated in the agreement."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Moderate is $15,000 to $18,000 a year?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"What does moderate mean, $15,000 to $18,000? Moderate is $15,000 to $18,000. Does the minister know that --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The member for Perth."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Edighoffer",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"-- that is 80 per cent of the families -- he should take that programme and burn it for all it’s worth."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The member for Perth."
]
}
] |
May 27, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-27/hansard-1
|
ONTARIO RACING COMMISSION
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Edighoffer",
"text": [
"A question of the Minister of Consumer and Commercial relations regarding the Ontario Racing Commission.",
"Why is the commission still allowed to continue to hold its meetings behind closed doors? I thought this would have been changed with the new chairman of the commission. Also is the minister responsible for the appointment of Mr. James Coleman as a commissioner because he was a former employee of the Ontario Jockey Club? When did this appointment take place?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the Ontario Racing Commission traditionally held its hearings in camera, as the member is well aware. This policy was reviewed by the entire commission last August or September, I believe, and resulted in the decision to hold all hearings in public, save and except certain of those which it felt, in the interests of racing and the public generally, could not be held in public.",
"I am not familiar with any particular hearing to which the member refers and perhaps he might assist me in that particular matter. I do know the commission has held hearings publicly over the past few weeks and has been very pleased with the public and media acceptance of that type of process.",
"Mr. Coleman was appointed to the Ontario Racing Commission, if I recollect, later on last year; I would say in about July or August, 1973, he was appointed to the Ontario Racing Commission."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The time for oral questions has now expired.",
"Petitions.",
"Presenting reports.",
"Motions.",
"Introduction of bills.",
"Orders of the day."
]
}
] |
May 27, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-27/hansard-1
|
ANSWER TO WRITTEN QUESTION
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I am tabling the answer to question No. 2 standing on the order paper. (Sessional paper No. 44.)"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Is that the answer?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"That is the answer."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Clerk of the House",
"text": [
"The second order, House in committee of the whole House."
]
}
] |
May 27, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-27/hansard-1
|
LAND SPECULATION TAX ACT (CONTINUED)
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"May I remind the committee we are on section 5 and when we left off the other day, Mr. Singer had the following motion before the committee:",
"“Mr. Singer moves that the word ‘whether’ in the third last line and the words before ‘or’ in the second last line of section 5(1) be deleted.”",
"That is the motion now before the committee.",
"The member for Kitchener."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)",
"text": [
"There is one matter which could be raised with respect to the amendment and that is with respect to its wording. It would appear to me that if those words are removed, there is a minor change that should take place and that the word “whether,” in fact, should be changed to “where.” If the word “whether” is changed to “where,” and if the words “before or” are deleted, I think that is the sense of the member for Downsview’s amendment."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Are the members ready for the question?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. Shulman (High Park)",
"text": [
"No."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The member for High Park."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, you will recall that we were fumbling through this section on Thursday, and the minister made certain comments to explain the way it was going to work -- and we have had a chance to digest those comments. I want to come back and ask him to re-comment on his comments, because his comments seemed a little un-commentable.",
"Specifically, he said that when a transaction is about to take place, he would feed the transaction into the computer and the computer would immediately spew back at him several similar transactions in similar areas so he would know whether the evaluation he is getting is correct. In a matter of seconds the computer could tell him whether the correct tax is being paid. Now, when are we going to have this magic computer, Mr. Minister?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. A. K. Meen (Minister of Revenue)",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, the computer is expected to be in full operation by about the end of this year, with respect to residential properties, and roughly by this time next year with respect to all properties in Ontario."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Well, I must take a specific example; because this bill falls down in specific examples. Let us suppose a year from today real estate has recovered from the shock that you have administered to it and we are back at our regular rate of transactions, which is 50,000 a week in this province; or 10,000 per working day. Let’s suppose I am selling a piece of land on Mississauga Rd., just north of Highway 401. And let’s suppose I am going to sell it for some ridiculously high figure -- let’s say $500,000 -- and I am trying to figure out what it was worth April 9, 1974.",
"I call in my cousin Stephen and he tells me it was worth a good half a million, so I really don’t have to pay any speculative land tax. I send the transaction into your computer and your computer spews it through. Unfortunately, because the computer has no past history to work upon, it will have no idea what the transactions were in the area of April 9, 1974; or what that land was really worth then. In effect, the computer, at least at the beginning, is not going to be of any value to you. Is it not correct that you are going to have to do an individual inquiry, or send someone out to that property? Is that not so?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"It is possible in some instances we would have to have personal attendances, regardless, because there may have been improvements made which the vendor would want to include in his base price. But I don’t think it is an exaggeration to say that we have every confidence that the computer will be able to give us comparative figures on an acreage basis of similar sales on or about April 9. If we are seeking to establish the April 9, 1974 evaluation, or comparable sales on an acreage basis if we are attempting to develop a fair market value as of whatever other date we are looking at, recognizing of course that if the property was acquired by the individual at a later date, that would be pretty cogent evidence of the acquisition value."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"I presume it is a new computer you are buying -- is it? How in the world is a computer going to know what went on in previous years? It can only know transactions from the time you set the computer up. Isn’t that true?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"A computer has available to it the information on all sales of real estate, so that we would have that information available in the computer for retrieval purposes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"It’s only a memory bank. It can only know what you feed into it. Aren’t you going to begin when you get it; feeding in all transactions as they occur? You are not going to attempt to go back into history, are you?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Yes, the information will be fed into it and will be available as of April 9, as I understand it, for all properties; and when a question comes up, we will be able to ascertain that on a fairly swift retrievable basis."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Where is this information going to come from? Just a moment -- I think you misunderstand what your own ministry is doing, as I am told by officials in your ministry; and correct me it they are wrong. What the computer is going to do -- once you set it up -- is that every transaction that takes place in this province is going to be fed into it for future information. But they have no thought, or so they tell me, of feeding in past transactions. Now, are they wrong? Have I been misinformed by someone in your ministry? If so, correct me."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, so far as I am aware, we will be able to ascertain the fair market value of the property concerned, either on its basis on April 9 -- and it would be a highly unlikely case that it would have been traded on April 9 -- so that the chances are we would be looking at other properties of a like nature having been traded at or about that time from information that we would have available."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"I am trying -- before I get to the point of this whole thing -- I want to know from the minister as of what date are transactions in this province to be fed into that machine?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I wonder how many times I have to answer this. I will answer it another way. The ministry has been gathering market value assessment on all properties in this province for some years."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"You are going by assessment?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"We are updating it and it would be the value that would be applied."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Are we back to assessment? I thought we had abandoned that on Thursday. You are going to use the assessment value? That’s the word you used."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Assessment of market value."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Assessment of market value. All right, I don’t think the minister and his officials are in agreement yet. They are looking anxiously at you. I wish you would inquire of them. But let’s suppose, even if it’s not correct, that as of April 9, 1974, every transaction in this province is fed into the computer. I don’t think you are going back, because nobody suggests you are going back before April 9, 1974."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"No point."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Okay, now let’s take a specific area. I confess I have invested in the stock market in the past and I am the owner of 75 shares of a company called Masg Entertainment, and they own a property on Mississauga Rd. I will take this specific example, because for the life of me nobody can figure out how it’s going to work. Let us suppose Jan. 1, 1975, this company decides to sell this piece of land -- and let me tell you what the piece of land is. It’s 68 acres; 60 acres of which are on the Credit River, and eight acres are up on high land. There is a house sitting on the property. There’s a separate garage and there are some separate out-buildings.",
"Suppose we are going to sell this on Jan. 1, 1975. Now, I can assure the minister that between April 9, 1974, and Jan. 1, 1975, there are going to be no other properties selling like that in the area. For that matter, if we take that whole immediate area -- let’s take the whole Huttonville area. The rate of turnover in that area is never high. Let’s suppose between now and the first of January, 1975, there are what -- two, three, four sales; all of which are unique properties.",
"What I am trying to get at -- if the minister may retain his patience -- is that there is no way that your computer can compare. There is not going to be comparative sales.",
"Five years from now this problem may work out, if either of us are around this funny world. But as at a year from now, you are not going to have comparative sales to compare with. So, as of Jan. 1, 1975, some 10,000 transactions a day are going to pour into your office. Your computer is just not going to have any way, with the vast majority of them, of telling whether or not the figures that you’re being given are fair figures.",
"What I’m trying to say to you, and I don’t think I’m getting through, is that each of these cases is going to have to be considered on its own merit, and you aren’t going to have the staff without having a one-year backlog. If you’ve got 10,000 cases a day to consider and you’ve got a staff of -- what, 100? -- that means that each one of your people is going to get 100 cases a day landing in his lap. I shudder to think, within a period of a month or two, of how big that backlog’s going to be."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. V. M. Singer (Downsview)",
"text": [
"Even if the information were helpful --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Even if the information is absolutely correct you have no way of knowing if its correct. Your computer will be of absolutely no use to you, in the vast majority of cases, until the computer has had a history of a year or two or three or four or five. The year 1975 is going to go down in the history of this government as the year of the boondoggle because there’s going to be no way you can handle it. You’re going to have two choices. You’re either going to have to do what my Liberal friend suggested on Thursday -- rubber stamp it and hope for the best and send it back -- or you’re going to actually have to look at it, in which case the time lag is going to be horrendous."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"You’re going to need evaluators."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"If you’ve got 10,000 coming in per day, and that’s the number you’re going to get -- 10,000 a day, no less, maybe more -- this is, of course, unless the complete stop in real estate sales continues forever; if we keep debating this until January, 1975, your nightmare may be postponed."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I thought by the hon. member’s own figures last week, he had figured out around 50,000 a year. Where does the hon. member get 1,000 a day or 10,000 a day?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Fifty thousand a year was accepting your figure of 95 per cent not requiring any questioning. What I’m saying to you is, at the beginning they’re all going to require questioning. How can they not?",
"Let’s suppose I am a willing vendor and the member for Downsview is a willing buyer. With the best will in the world, in order to avoid the horror of subsections 4 and 5 of section 5 descending on my friend the member for Downsview, in order to avoid him having to pay a tax which I’m responsible for -- I’ll be in Switzerland by that time because you won’t get me -- in order for him to avoid having to pay that, he’s going to want to make sure that your department stamps it as okay.",
"What’s going to happen is, we’re going to make out all the papers, and I’m going to say this property was worth $500,000 back on April 9, 1974 -- I got my evaluation from my cousin Stephen, who happens to be a real estate agent, and he’s promised me he’ll give it to me; I’ve asked him already, and he agrees with me it’s really a great piece of property -- and it’s in a good area because it’s in the Premier’s (Mr. Davis) riding and that in itself gives it a certain added status."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Six per cent a year."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Added status I would say. We have good neighbours. We just look across the valley and there he is. So, in order to make sure I don’t stick him and I don’t want to do that; and in order for him to make sure he doesn’t get stuck by me, because he’s a little suspicious of me at the best of times, we’re going to send the papers in to your department, and one of those poor fellows sitting over there who’s now going to be the head of that huge department, with hundreds of clerks, will say, “Oh, my God, another one.” And he’s going to give this one to clerk A because he’s only got 400 waiting for him.",
"I tell you there is going to be 10,000 a day, 50,000 a week, because there is no way you can eliminate the 95 per cent. We accepted your figure of 95 per cent last week because we hadn’t had a chance to show it to our experts. But they have pointed out to us the flaw -- there is no way that any of it can go through because the only way the buyer can be certain is to have this bloody stamp of yours.",
"You’re either going to have to sort of abandon ship and send it all back by reverse mail, or else you’re actually going to have to look at it. In which case, 10,000 a day. Let’s suppose we expand your staff a",
"little bit; let’s hire an extra thousand for you. What’s a thousand? An extra thousand employees, the Treasurer (Mr. White) will be happy, it will help the unemployment figures; we can take them right off the welfare roles. So they’ll have only 10 a day to do. Do you really think they can do 10 a day if we get a thousand of them?",
"By the way, my son, who is 19, has asked me to put in a good word with you because you’re going to be needing a lot of evaluators who’ll be going around all summer looking at property. If you would like one, I would appreciate it if you would take him on. But in any case, you would need 10,000. I am sorry, Mr. Chairman, but I thought I might as well get it on the record because Jeff is looking for a job for next summer."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. P. G. Givens (York-Forest Hill)",
"text": [
"That’s nepotism."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Oh, is that nepotism? Not if it’s done publicly."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Order please."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Well, I don’t think he’ll get the job."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"They will call you a thespian."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Oh, I wouldn’t want to be called that.",
"In any case, let’s suppose you’re able to get the Treasurer to vote you enough money for an extra 10,000 employees. You’ll get Mr. Moog to build you a building somewhere to house all these people in. Let’s suppose with these 10,000 they each have to do only 10 a day. How can they do 10 a day? If they only have to go out to see one of those 10 that’s the day shot because, unfortunately, they’re not all too close to the comer of Bloor and Yonge. Perhaps we could build subsidiary buildings all over the province for you; put 100 here, 100 there, 100 in the other place.",
"What I’m trying to get through to the minister, Mr. Chairman, with some difficulty, is that it won’t work. It hasn’t been thought through. The implications haven’t been considered. In fact, if you attempt to make it work, you’re going to bring down the whole business because there isn’t going to be room for anything else. There isn’t going to be time for anything else. This is all presuming that nobody appeals and everything goes smoothly. If all goes well it will be disaster. If anything goes badly it will be a mean situation.",
"Meanwhile, I say to the minister, it really is an impossible situation. You can’t let this Act go through as it is. If you do you will succeed in your primary intention -- you have succeeded -- there has been a slight fall in some housing as a few speculators were forced to bale out. What, in effect, is happening is that it is finishing very rapidly: there’s a complete freeze in housing. Try it. You can’t sell, you can’t buy, regardless of the price, because nobody knows what they are doing. Nobody knows what the implications are. Nobody knows what taxes are involved and nobody knows how to go about it.",
"But if you think you’ve got trouble now -- and I think you’re getting the first inklings -- wait until a year from now. The early months of 1975 are going to be known as “nightmare alley” around the Ministry of Revenue.",
"I know you’re not listening to me. I know you’re not paying attention. I’m saying this only so that next year, in the Throne Speech debate I can read this out and say, “I said it to him.” I’ll say then to Mr. Speaker, as I say now to you, Mr. Chairman, “Here it is.” I’ll quote from Hansard. “I said it to him and he sat there and shook his head.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. A. Renwick (Riverdale)",
"text": [
"You will have said it to the former minister by then."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"To the former minister who is not running for re-election because of certain circumstances which will develop in the next year. “I said it to him and he shook his head and he wouldn’t listen. He chewed gum and he kept looking over at his advisers and they kept looking worriedly at me and at him.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I never chew gum."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. Cassidy (Ottawa Centre)",
"text": [
"He was sucking a lollipop, as a matter of fact."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Chewing Tums."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"I say, Mr. Minister, for the last time: I know you won’t listen but are you going to have trouble."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The member for Downsview."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Yes, I was just about to look up in the phone book and see where the minister lives. Do you still live on Yorkminster?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Never have."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Never have? I was going to amaze you by quoting the street on which you live but supposing a house two doors away from you is sold. Somebody arrives at the registry office in an effort to determine whether or not there was a tax payable under this statute and we put it through the computer for size, I guess.",
"There have been three sales on that street in the last six months and we have the assessment records and market value assessment records. How does the computer tell whether the houses are the same? It may say that one house has 60 ft. frontage and the next one has 50 and the other one has 75 ft. There may be some base on which that could be equalized but suppose one has five bedrooms and the other has two bedrooms? Suppose one has a finished basement and the other one doesn’t? Or suppose, if you get into perhaps a more exclusive section where the minister might live one has an indoor swimming pool and the next one doesn’t. How is your computer possibly going to be able to figure that out?",
"What you get, when you get to that sort of situation which is going to be the norm and not the unusual, is going to be a problem not of sending out a clerk -- or even someone you might have in your department whom you might call an evaluator -- but of doing a proper and full evaluation of the particular house to determine value. How do you do that? Nothing the minister has said indicates to me how those figures are going to come out of the computer and be at all meaningful because you haven’t got the figures to feed into the computer.",
"How are you going to get at it? Are you going to work out these clearances? How are you going to get actual value? What is the mean? What is a willing buyer prepared to pay to a willing seller? Would the minister give us some light on this?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I would like to touch briefly first, though, on the comment made by the member for High Park about his 70-acre parcel, or thereabouts, of which a couple of acres were valley land and the rest were up on the heights. Up on the heights there was a house, an attached garage, other outbuildings and the like. It might be, in that instance, that there was no particular parcel that compared with it; that there hadn’t been any sales along the river bank with which one could make a comparison. In that case, possibly some special attendance might be necessary, other than the one that is made annually to examine these properties under the current market value assessment programme that is ongoing.",
"This year, for example, that parcel to which he makes reference, if indeed it exists at all --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Oh, it exists. I was there yesterday."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"-- will have had an assessment made for it at market value, and the owner will have been appraised of that assessment. Now if he likes that assessment in its amount --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Oh, I like it very much."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"-- he may have two reasons for liking it. One is that if it’s too low, it may be he is intending to hold on to the house and so he will pay a lesser amount of taxes each year. If it’s higher than he thinks it’s worth, he may be flattered; he may then reflect on what he can get for it. But if that is the case, he probably won t appeal it either if he is contemplating selling.",
"So one way or the other, if properties are not properly assessed, owners in special cases may be on the horns of a dilemma as to whether to appeal the assessment or not. That procedure is available under the Assessment Act, of course.",
"If we have that figure available next January, 1975, when the member for High Park and his colleagues decide to sell that property, it is a fair base upon which to work in determining, when they have a sale price established between a willing vendor in their case and presumably a willing purchaser, whether there has been any gain on which the Land Speculation Tax Act would apply. I don’t see any real difficulties. In some instances, that may arise.",
"The vast majority of the transactions that go through the registry office every day are mortgage loans, sales of houses that are the principal residences of the vendors and that kind of thing. They are exemptions by the simple completion of the affidavit and never have to come to the attention of any official of my ministry in order to deal with them, rubber stamp or not; they are simply exempt by a provision of the Act and/or the regulations."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Well, how many will have to come to the minister’s office?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"My ministry would be dealing with a very small part of the total number of transactions that go through the registry office."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"How many?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Well, we talked about that last week --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Yes, but the minister’s figures were phoney. He said 95 per cent wouldn’t come to his attention; that’s not true."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"In any event, it would be a small percentage of the transactions that would require any attention."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Has the minister sent anyone down to the registry office to see what it would be?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Now, the member for Downsview raises the question of the manner in which a market value might be established, via the computer, for a sale on Yorkminster, say, if he wants to use that example. Perhaps there had been only three sales on Yorkminster, which is a fairly long street -- and one would think there might have been a few more than that -- but if that were so and they weren’t comparable sizes of houses, one would look for sales of a house that had roughly the same size of lot. You certainly wouldn’t compare the sale price of a house that had five bedrooms with the sale price of a house that had two bedrooms in determining what was the fair value. You would also take a look at the terms of the sale. The computer prints all these out, I might add.",
"It would not be programmed for sales on that particular street, Mr. Chairman; it would be programmed to report back on sales in that particular area. So if there were sales on abutting Cotswold Cres., Lord Seaton Rd., Upper Canada Dr., or Normandale or any of the other streets in the district to which the member makes reference, in that case the computer would take a look at those sales in that area."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Many abutting streets have entirely different values. Look at Ardwold Gate and Spadina Road."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"It would be up to the person inquiring of the computer as to what characteristics he thought were appropriate -- size of lot, size of house, vintage, type, terms of sale and so on; whether all-cash or part-cash and part-mortgage, that sort of thing, which indeed can influence the total sale price. These would print out for the benefit of the person taking a look at what we would hope would be the fair market value.",
"As I indicated last week when we were talking about this, it would also be done within a span of weeks or months surrounding the date upon which the evaluations were being sought. This will be in place and it will be possible to do this on fairly short notice. I have seen the mechanism demonstrated. It took about two minutes to get a comparison back with a printout of something like 10 or 12 different house sales in a particular area in Metropolitan Toronto --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"What happens to the fellow who sells a house on Ardwold Gate?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"-- in which sales were compared, and there was a price figure. There was how much the second mortgage was, how much was the first, the size of the lot, the number of bathrooms and the vintage of initial construction. It was extremely interesting actually to see the way in which that information feeds back."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"I am sure it would be very interesting but not very helpful."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Indeed it is helpful because it gives an average figure one can look at. Out of those one might see there is a factor on one of those particular houses that puts it in a different category, and then one might take it out of that picture and use the others to determine what was the fair market value."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I hate to belabour this point but I think the minister is caught up in the wonders of modern science. He really is suggesting that the computers are going to be able to replace the art of evaluation. I called his attention last Thursday to the fact that, to my knowledge, none of the courts that have been delegated either provincially or federally to determine values on expropriation, has up to this point set any store at all to the assessment value."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"With respect, Mr. Chairman, I heard the hon. member when he made that comment last week. I recall thinking to myself that those courts would have been dealing with the old formula of assessment that came up with a quarter or a third or a fifth and sometimes as ridiculous an amount as a tenth of the fair market value. It has no relativity. It has no relationship whatever to the fair market value which was the question before the courts in those cases. In this instance what we are talking about, and I suppose the member for Downsview is going to have to wait until he sees it in place in 1977, is the establishment of a fair enough market value, not some artificial formula that determines an assessment based on what vintage of bathtub and the rest of it, according to the old Alf Gray formula which, as he and I both know and I’m sure most hon. members realize, was a very unrealistic and highly artificial method of coming up with an evaluation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"I agree. The minister may have been listening closely but he wasn’t listening awfully closely to my colleague from Waterloo, who has made a very intense study of this problem in his own constituency and has the assurance of the local assessment supervisor, that this market value assessment in Waterloo -- in any event, the new one that he is talking about -- is about 60 per cent of value. There is one of the first. We haven’t seen one in Metro yet. I don’t know what it is going to look like in Metro and whether the opinion is going to be 50 per cent or 60 per cent or 61.75 per cent. Nobody really knows, but I pay great store to the comments made by my colleague from Waterloo --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"That is why we did it the way we did."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"-- who is a student of these things and an intense student and a very responsible student of these matters. When he says that he has examined them and been in touch with his local assessment officials who are employees of your department and that they are of the opinion that the new assessments, which are supposed to reflect market value, are close to 60 per cent, then I believe him. I just don’t see why you are going to expect magic. It may be that you will have a more equal system of assessment for local tax purposes, but I don’t think that the insertion of the words, “actual value” or “market value” or any other similar set of phrases in your assessment Act is going, in fact, to make it so.",
"What the ministry is striving for, and I think it is worthwhile, is the equality of assessment so that the burden of municipal taxes will fall more equally than it presently does. That makes good sense. But to take the next jump and say that you are really going to reflect market value and you are going to use that for the implements of this tax, I think is just dreaming in Technicolor. I don’t think you are going to come close to that.",
"What I am really talking about, and what I think the member for High Park is talking about is that where you get into most of these cases where there is a dispute, you are not going to be able to resolve the dispute by pressing a number of buttons on a computer. You are going to have to send out trained and competent evaluators. They will have to prepare full and complete reports; pictures, descriptions of the buildings involved, with the size of the land and the specific location. There will be comparatives on the site, location, fuel, number of bedrooms, number of bathrooms, all that sort of thing.",
"I just don’t understand how you are going to get at these things by pressing a number of buttons on the computer. The computer is not going to replace the very fine art of evaluation; and unless you have some system of arriving at a reasonably comprehensive and reasonably believable evaluation, then this isn’t going to work."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The member for Scarborough West."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. S. Lewis (Scarborough West)",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, this section speaks more directly than many to the utter confusion that exists in the marketplace as a result of the introduction of the bill. I noticed with some bemusement in the Sunday Sun and in today’s Globe and Mail that the ministry is embarking on a project of 29 meetings across the province to explain to 8,000 bemused and bewildered lawyers what it is about this bill which makes it so noxious. As a matter of fact, if I remember the stories accurately, you are going to point out the dangers and the hazards in the bill."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Was it the ministry or the bar association that was to be involved?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Well, I think the ministry was to be involved because the ministry was at the meeting of last Wednesday night."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Mr. Stephenson was there."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Mr. Stephenson was there. The ministry was exposing itself to a degree of public ridicule visited only upon the minister in these chambers; not as a rule in another public place. And this must surely be a matter of some artful, personal accomplishment that you have set a bill in motion that six weeks after it is introduced you have to have 29 major meetings around Ontario to explain the black magic contained in the clauses to the legal profession. Normally, not unlike the witches around the cauldron, they are able to create their own magic out of clauses without the help of the ministry.",
"And the shambles that exists within the ministry in response to questions is itself interesting. Now, I missed Thursday’s session; I was not able to be here. But I have a copy of a letter which was sent to the Hon. A.K. Meen by David H. Milman of the firm Milman and Valo, which speaks directly to the section we are now dealing with. It speaks to the lien clearance certificate pursuant to the bill. I don’t know -- did anyone put this on the record? I don’t believe so, Mr. Chairman. I would like to do it because it is such a perfect commentary on the present state of the ministry.",
"“Attention the Hon. A. K. Meen.",
"“Dear Sir:",
"“Re: Grgas and Tbljas sale to Gwendoline Usher, 32.6 acres, township of Eramosa, part lot 30, concession 5, parcel 7.",
"“I am enclosing herein a copy of an undertaking this firm was forced to give to your ministry in order to obtain a lien clearance certificate pursuant to Bill 25, which, as you are aware, at the date of the giving was still not in force.",
"“I am also enclosing herein a copy of the agreement of purchase and sale which was entered into on April 24, 1974, between the above parties. This writer received a copy of this agreement of purchase and sale on April 26, and in accordance with the proposed requirements of Bill 25, delivered to your ministry by hand a copy of the agreement with a request for clearance, with our opinion as to value, in order that a lien clearance certificate would be obtained prior to the closing date, namely May 15, 1974.",
"“On May 10, 1974, this writer contacted your department with reference to the letter forwarded on April 26, and spoke to a female clerk whose name was placed on the copy of our letter to you, who advised she would look into the matter and call the firm back.",
"“On May 13, the writer again contacted the clerk in question, and was again advised that she was still looking for our letter and would advise us in due course. Again, on May 14, 1974, this writer phoned the clerk in question and was again advised that she had not found our letter, but that on a personal attendance we could speak to any of the clerks at the counter who would provide the necessary clearance.",
"“On May 15, I therefore sent our student to your premises at 77 Grenville St., taking both the file wherein our client had purchased the subject property last year, together with our file on the sale to Usher, with instructions that he was to allow any- one from your department to peruse the contents of those files, to ensure that you had all the facts available to come to a conclusion with reference to whether any taxes might fall due.",
"“My student was given a flat rejection by your clerk and, in accordance with his instructions, contacted the writer by phone. I then requested to speak to the supervisor of the department but first had to explain to the clerk that, unless some special circumstance existed, the price of this property could not have risen from April 9, when Bill 25 was proposed, to the date upon which the agreement of purchase and sale was entered into two weeks later.",
"“Further, I advised the clerk that this property was listed for sale at $30,000 early in March, over a month prior to the announcement of the proposed Bill 25. As well, I pointed out that Minister of Housing and yourself were making statements in the newspapers that the effect of Bill 25 was to lower the price of real estate but, it would appear that your employees and staff are not aware of these statements. I would certainly think so.”",
"[I add, apart from the letter, a more absurd set of self-serving statements hasn’t been issued in a long time and it was indicated in this Housing Ontario/74 today.]",
"“The clerk advised he did not have the authority to make a decision and I further requested to speak to his supervisor. I was then turned over to a Mr. Walker, whose position was similar to the clerk, and advised that unless an appraisal was forwarded they would not give the clearance. I advised Mr. Walker that, in the event the Minister of Revenue failed to provide a clearance, the transaction would not close. The effect of your ministry’s actions would, in fact, make property unsalable as most vendors are unable to pay the tax in advance. The result is that a vendor is held up to blackmail as he is required to make a settlement in order to obtain the necessary clearance.",
"“Mr. Walker suggested that we enter into the undertaking and close. I then requested that he write out whatever necessary undertaking he wished and I would have my student execute it. I was then advised that he was too busy to write this out and that I would have to have my student write it out and, if it was not in the proper form as he had requested, the clearance would not be given.",
"“After this matter was settled, I then received a further phone call from our student advising that Mr. Walker required the copy of the agreement of purchase and sale which was in our file. I then advised that this was the only copy that we had and that we had forwarded one to your department in our letter dated April 26 and advised our student to show them a copy of our letter to you dated April 26. Without my knowledge, Mr. Walker removed the copy of our letter to your department, with which we forwarded a copy of the agreement of purchase and sale, and insisted on an undertaking that we forward another copy of the agreement immediately.",
"“While this writer, one of our students and two of your employees were negotiating the lien clearance” [I add, parenthetically, clearly taking up all the administrative and intellectual prowess of the entire ministry for some 48 to 72 hours,] “somewhere in your department our original letter dated April 26 was being answered: ‘I am enclosing herein a copy of the lien clearance certificate forwarded by mail, postmarked on the 15th day of May, 1974, in accordance with file, etc., certifying that no lien arises under the Land Speculation Tax Act.’",
"“This was our original request; this clearance arrived on May 16. You will recall, of course, that the closing was May 15. Notwithstanding the issuance of your lien certificate prior to our entering into the undertaking enclosed, I am enclosing: (a) a copy of the real estate appraisal of the subject property as of April 9, containing confirmation that the property was listed over a month prior to Bill 25 being proposed; (b), a further copy of the agreement of purchase and sale in this regard.",
"“I will assume that you are now satisfied that no lien has arisen under the enclosed agreement of purchase and sale and unless I hear to the contrary within 10 days of the date of this letter, I will be releasing the balance of the funds held in my trust account to my client.",
"“Since the writing of this letter I attended a seminar of the Canadian Bar Association on the Land Speculation Tax Act and listened to Mr. Isaac Stephenson advise that your ministry and its employees were being as co-operative and efficient as a government department could be. In this regard I think the contents of this letter speak for them- selves.",
"“It certainly appears from the content of the Act that what the government of Ontario is attempting to do is far beyond the controlling of land speculation which can be achieved in a very simple way without affecting and hurting all of the people that you are presently hurting.",
"“Yours truly, David Milman”.",
"I’m not one given to reading lengthy documents into the record, as the minister will know, but I thought the letter was so peculiarly apt to this section that it should go on the record. The letter says a number of simple things. No. 1: That not just the real estate market but the internal operations of your ministry have been reduced to an authoritarian shambles by the introduction of this Act. I use the word “authoritarian” advisedly, because there is nothing more objectionable than the capricious and arbitrary behaviour of clerks under pressure, when no one gives them direction, when they are left to their own devices, and when it is impossible to clear this peculiar matter up by some clarity, some direction, some indication of what this scrambled piece of legislation means. They may think they are acting in good faith but they are so harassed, they are so nonplussed, they are so uninformed, they are beating such an administrative retreat that their contact with the public is arbitrary. The other lawyers who met in the Royal York gave testament to that, as well as Mr. Milman.",
"Secondly, this Land Speculation Tax Act is acting directly in this way, even dealing with something which is supposed to facilitate it, like the lien clearance certificate, it is acting directly to slow down real estate transactions. My colleague from High Park asked a very important question today at question period, which the Minister of Housing (Mr. Handleman) simply sloughed off. There are more listings on the Toronto real estate market, for example, but the number of sales is declining.",
"I had a real estate agent bring to my office this morning the actual sales that had occurred for every day of the first 25 days of May as they are listed in the Toronto Real Estate Board transaction sheet, and it’s discernible to the naked eye, let me tell you, the gradual decline in the number of sales as you proceed through the month of May, because this piece, of legislation, along with the interest rates, is serving to choke the housing market.",
"Now the third point this letter makes, which is a perfectly valid one, is that the Land Speculation Act is throwing a net so wide that it is hurting, and I like the use of the word “hurting” because it’s a flavoured and descriptive word. It is hurting people who have never in their lives contemplated speculation or who have not now entered into speculative transactions. With this clause, as well as the others, you have in one fell swoop managed to bring within your ken all of the people in the province who might want to enter into innocent real estate transactions and are now, by the devices of your ministry, reduced to the suspicion of speculators. They resent it, and on their behalf we resent it.",
"From nursing home residents to farmers, to the aged who have an apartment and now want to sell their home, you have made speculators of the population of Ontario and the only people who will escape are the large corporations who can use your exemptions and loopholes to avoid the payment of the tax. It is a bill of such inspired perversity, you have raised the punishment of Ontario to an electoral principle in this bill, and you are punishing so many people by the introduction of this statute that it would be hard to name them all.",
"But most important, Mr. Chairman, this letter and the certificate which relates to liens show that you are effectively ending housing in the province. Mr. Chairman, this is becoming an incredibly frustrating process these weeks. I will grant the minister that the interest rates are the primary cause of the deceleration of real estate transactions. Okay? I’ll grant you that the announcement of 11.75 per cent on Friday, which means effectively 12 per cent -- by the way, on an average house in Metropolitan Toronto now, $58,450 in the 25 days in May, a 12 per cent mortgage amortized over 35 years leads to a total cost of $210,000-plus on the lifetime of that mortgage. You tell me who, other than members of the Legislature, or the 18 per cent of Ontario families who earn more than $18,000 a year, can afford to pay out $210,000 in order to buy a house whose actual price is $58,000? But that is what you are doing.",
"The interest rates, bad as they were, have been complicated fatally by this Land Speculation Tax Act. The interest rates, you see, are manageable; while they are objectionable, they can be coped with be- cause we understand them.",
"But the bill, as the 1,450 lawyers gathered at the Royal York Hotel pointed out, and as the 29 meetings will show over the next number of weeks, is indigestible and absolutely incomprehensible. I sit with the finest legal minds in Ontario on this side of the House Mr. Chairman -- the member for Lake- shore (Mr. Lawlor), the member for Riverdale have no peers in the legal profession. On the Liberal benches are other distinguished lawyers, working hard to grasp the meaning of the bill -- not quite as accomplished as those of socialist divination; nonetheless working at it. I have noticed an improvement in capacity over struggling with this bill.",
"The factor remains that whether it is the coterie of lawyers in the NDP caucus, or the positive plenitude of lawyers in the Liberal caucus, none can understand it. I may say, Mr. Chairman, I have had six months at a pre-law school, and I can’t understand it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Order please. I wonder if I could say to the hon. member for Scarborough West that --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"You think I am straying?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Yes. You were right on the bill at the beginning, but I am afraid you are straying. I wonder if you would come back to section 5."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Not very far, Mr. Chairman, not very far."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"I think I strayed a little, I concede that and that’s why I am coming right back to the clause as I was at the beginning."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"It is your impatience that is to blame for that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"What I am saying to you -- I guess we are not getting through to the minister, but as I stand here we are getting through to the public. The public of Ontario knows that the constructions in this clause are so complicated the lawyers are in rebellion. The public of Ontario knows that this bill is having a disastrous effect. The public of Ontario knows that if you bullheadedly push forward with this, you will have to repeal it several months from now because it will be an unmitigated disaster for you. There is no escape for you.",
"I put this letter on the record, Mr. Chairman, as one small example of the immense frustration which the legal profession is now feeling in dealing with the minister. Can you imagine what this man Milman now says to his clients who want to engage in real estate transactions? He obviously can’t deal with them expeditiously; he obviously can’t promise them an answer in a matter of days; he obviously can’t promise them co-operation from the minister. I don’t know what madness possesses the members over there to pursue this piece of legislation, but in every clause it is so faulty as to be fatal. My colleague from Riverdale was saying that he expects it will be repealed within the year; my colleague from High Park thinks it may be repealed earlier than that. Some of us think it may never be proclaimed, although obviously it has to be because it was announced on April 9. Jericho is caving in around the hon. minister. He is sitting not on his seat, but in rubble. He doesn’t understand it, and we are trying very hard to explain it to him."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"We have the amendment of Mr. Singer -- the member for Riverdale?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, just before we leave that point, I think the crux of the problem as was so ably stated by the leader of the New Democratic Party is very simple. This bill has made the minister a party to every single real estate transaction in the Province of Ontario. That’s the sum and substance of the procedural hassle which he has developed for himself. I cannot conceive of any real estate transaction going through in the Province of Ontario which will not be subject to the condition that a certificate of the minister be obtained.",
"The other clause providing for an affidavit is not going to be used in the way in which the minister thinks it is going to be used. Every time that a transfer of land takes place in Ontario he is going to have to okay it. I have heard the government on occasion say to this party, “You believe in government intrusion into private business transactions.” We have never seen an example of the intrusion of government such as this.",
"The crux of it is exactly that -- you are now a party to every real estate transaction in the Province of Ontario, and you haven’t got the machinery, the knowledge, the capacities or the information on which you can now act. I cannot conceive that even Mr. Milman, with the obvious knowledge of real estate transactions which he has -- which far exceeds any knowledge I may have about it -- can believe for one moment that the certificate which he has now received is of any use whatsoever. He is now dependent upon your validating that certificate because there is no way in which that certificate is binding on the minister at a subsequent date.",
"The bill at the present time has ground the real estate market to a halt and will continue to do so. I suggest to the minister that we hear, at odd times, talk about the sort of ideas which the Treasurer of Ontario has from time to time. For reasons which we can’t understand, the government seems to buy the one so-called bright idea of the Treasurer every time he opens his mouth. It was only because he wasn’t Treasurer but merely chairman of the select committee on taxation that we escaped from the imposition of the retail sales tax on food.",
"Last year the people of the Province of Ontario, aided and abetted by us, forced the repeal of the other bright idea about the retail sales tax on fuel oil. This is another one of his bright ideas. It is not thought through; it is not subject to the government scrutiny involved with the imposition of a tax simply because under budgetary procedures nobody could think it through and nobody had any advance knowledge of what was required.",
"Mr. Minister, I don’t know how it is going to work out. I appear to have been the optimist on this side of the House thinking it would be about a year before it’s repealed. But other people, much more knowledgeable than I am in this field, are now satisfied that it is so unworkable you are going to have to recall the bill within a much shorter period of time and that, in fact, it will not see the light of day as a continuing piece of the legislation of the Province of Ontario.",
"The reason I say you have made yourself a party to every single transaction in the Province of Ontario is that in subsection 2 of this bill the certificate, to be of any value, must be dated on the date of the closing of the transaction. It is no good the day afterward. If the transaction is closed the day after the date of the certificate, my reading of subsection 2 says that does not remove the lien. The lien exists and there is no way in which you are going to be able to operate it so that you can place in the hands of every solicitor who is closing any real estate transaction, in all the land office across the city of Toronto, a certificate dated that day.",
"The minister shakes his head, but I’d certainly call in aid my legal colleagues on the opposition benches of both parties. The section says, “but the giving of the certificate does not destroy the special lien for tax resulting from any disposition of designated land occurring after the date as of which the certificate is given.” I take that to mean that if the certificate is dated May 27 and the closing of the transaction takes place --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The hon. member -- order please."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"-- on May 28, for practical purposes the lien attaches to that date."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Order, please."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"I ask my colleagues to consider that because we’ll be coming to that clause very soon."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"We are on section 1 now."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman is now calling me to order because we’re on subsection 1."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"If we can come back to subsection 1, I’ll deal with the as-of-which when we get to subsection 2. Mr. Chairman, I just observe that if the Milman letter is accurate -- I have not seen it; I gather it was delivered to the member for Scarborough West before it was delivered to me. In any event, I have not seen it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, there are no grounds for that at all. The letter is dated May 22; it is addressed to the minister, with a copy to the leader of the New Democratic Party and, presumably, a copy to the leader of the Liberal Party."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"All right, I am not quarrelling with that. I am just saying I haven’t seen it yet."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Okay, that’s your problem, not ours."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. P. D. Lawlor (Lakeshore)",
"text": [
"You don’t have to tell us."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"We read our mail."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Order, please."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"It speaks for itself."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I would concede that certainly the mechanism in my ministry is not handling these applications with the degree of efficacy which I feel should be accorded to them --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"But you can’t blame your ministry. You are competent to do it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"-- albeit members of the legal profession don’t have available to them a bill which is law, a bill which incorporates the amendments and a bill which they know isn’t about to be changed with some other amendments that may come along from time to time.",
"One of their big difficulties last week presumably was that many of them had not had a chance to examine the bill as reprinted for the benefit of the members of this committee in this current debate."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"Wait until they do."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Of course, another difficulty is that they are dealing with a new piece of legislation, and that is bound to take them some time. It is regrettable that it had to be at a time of year when every law office is as busy, I guess, as it is at any time of the year, if not busier. That just happens to be the way it is.",
"I think that as soon as this bill can be law and copies of the bill as proclaimed then distributed to every member of the legal profession, just as we did with the Land Transfer Tax Amendment Act this year, those members would be able to come to grips with the Act and understand what they should be doing and what they need not do.",
"That covers my comments on subsection 1, Mr. Chairman. There are others when we get to subsection 2, but I think you did wish to deal with subsection 1 first."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Okay, let’s vote."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Those in favour of Mr. Singer’s amendment please say “aye.”",
"Those opposed please say “nay.”",
"In my opinion the “nays” have it.",
"Shall this be stacked?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"No stacking; no stacking in this statute at all."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Call in the members.",
"The committee divided on Mr. Singer’s motion to amend section 5(1) which was negatived on the following vote:"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Clerk of the House",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, the “ayes” are 27, the “nays” 44."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"I declare the motion lost and the subsection carried."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Section 5(2), Mr. Chairman."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Section 5(2). The member for Downsview."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I am very unhappy about section 5(2) for a variety of reasons."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"So am I."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"The first point that occurs to me is the ability -- I suggest we wait and get the minister with me -- to issue these certificates presently with a variety of people who are signing them and to make the validity of the signatures retroactive. To satisfy my curiosity I made reference to the Department of Revenue Act, now called the Ministry of Revenue Act. Section 9 of that statute says:",
"“The Lieutenant Governor in Council may make regulations authorizing or requiring the Deputy Minister of Revenue or any officer of the department to exercise any power or perform any duty conferred or imposed upon the minister by this or any other Act.”",
"I don’t know who the people are who are signing these clearances. It isn’t the minister because I have a few in my office at the moment. It isn’t the deputy minister and I don’t recognize really the signature of the person who signs them. Are the people who sign them officers?",
"Even if they are, I wonder when you turn to section 23 whether the retroactivity attempted to be enacted by section 23 is sufficient to cover this kind of an action.",
"Section 23 says:",
"“Upon receiving royal assent, this Act shall be deemed to come into force on April 9, 1974, and to apply to every disposition made, tax imposed and everything that may be required to be done under this Act that is made, imposed or done after April 9, 1974.”",
"I think it is going to be a very, very important legal question as to whether or not a certificate signed by somebody in the department who may or may not be an officer today or the day on which he signs it, and I suspect that you haven’t designated the signing people -- I don’t know how many you have as officers -- on April 10 or any day after and including April 10 is, in fact, remediable by the passing of a regulation whenever, if, as and when, this statute comes into force. So I have really grave doubts in my mind as to whether or not the certificate which says there is no lien, is, in fact, going to have any validity.",
"I understand that this point -- and the second phase of it that I’m going to come to in a moment -- was raised rather vociferously and laboured quite extensively at the meeting that took place at the Royal York Hotel last Wednesday. If my information is further correct, Mr. Stephenson, who was representing the government, indicated that, in his mind, the granting of these certificates had grave legal doubts surrounding it and very possibly, or even probably, the certificates were no good for that reason.",
"There is another point insofar as these certificates are concerned. It says in subsection 2:",
"“The giving of the certificate does not destroy the special lien for tax resulting from any disposition of the designated land occurring after the date as at which the certificate is given, and the giving of the certificate does not impair or relieve the transferor from his responsibility to pay any tax imposed by this Act.”",
"Now, if the certificate is given -- and as I say, I have a few in my office now -- in advance of the closing of a particular transaction, and a solicitor is reasonably careful about trying to get his papers in order in advance, perhaps even several weeks in advance, and then tenders the certificate at the time of closing several weeks after it has been dated, it would seem to me as I read those last few lines, that the certificate is invalid.",
"Or, another case: What happens if the particular transaction is a two-way or three-way transaction, so that the land goes from purchaser A, who becomes vendor A, to purchaser B? Or it’s a three-way or a four-way transaction, and it’s covered by one certificate -- or should it be covered by two certificates, or three certificates, or four certificates? And if the coincidence of dates is not exact, then is there any validity to the certificate?",
"You see, Mr. Chairman, what puzzles me, and what puzzles so many lawyers who have tried to sort this thing out -- and who have tried to act in the best interests of their clients -- even when you get the piece of paper what, in fact, does the piece of paper mean?",
"Let me review just very briefly. Is there a power, either under section 9 of the Ministry of Revenue Act, and under the retroactivity section of this statute, section 23, to allow persons who are not officers to issue these certificates and then regularize them at some later date by passing of an order-in-council? I have grave, grave doubts about that.",
"The second point is, if the coincidence of dates isn’t such as I’ve tried to very briefly outline, is the certificate any good at all; or is it just a piece of paper that you wave around and then argue about it at a later time?",
"What comes to mind, Mr. Chairman -- and it was cleared up eventually by the Supreme Court of Canada -- there used to be a practice of obtaining an opinion from the income tax people in Ottawa about whether a particular transaction was taxable.",
"And before we had a capital gains tax the arguments usually revolved around whether or not the transaction was an ordinary business transaction, or whether it was a capital gains type of transaction. Several years ago the department used to send out letters saying, “In our opinion” -- or in the opinion of the person who signed the letter -- “this transaction is a capital type transaction and therefore it’s not taxable.”",
"And then what happened, on several occasions, was that somebody else in the department reviewed the transaction and came to the conclusion that the original person who signed the letter had no real authority to sign the letter. He gave his opinion, and people acted on that opinion. But the Supreme Court of Canada came to the conclusion that unless that letter had been signed in accordance with the provisions of the Income Tax Act, then the opinion of an official really was meaningless, and that if the transaction was, in fact, an income type of transaction, then, notwithstanding the fact that there was a letter from a senior official of the department, the whole transaction was taxable. That’s what bothers me very much about the unusual wording of this, about the retroactivity and about the fact that there is nothing apparent at this moment as to who can sign these clearances. We were touching on it, I suppose, in 5(1).",
"How many clearances are you issuing a day? I don’t know that the suggestions put forward by the member for High Park were accurate, but if there are 10,000 transactions going on a day or a week, how many certificates are you issuing? How many people are signing them? Are all these people going to be officers of the department? Are you going to make them all officers? How are you going to do it?",
"When are they officers and do they have power to sign these clearance certificates? Even if you can do it retroactively and you have an order in council with 100 names on it appointing all of these clerks as officers of the department, can you really bring that within the provisions both of section 9 of the department’s Act and section 23 of this Act?",
"In other words, even if we accept what the minister is trying to do, and we have been trying very hard to accept it, surely we must have something more than a dozen lines in subsection (2) of section 5 which is going to indicate that these certificates are valid once obtained. There must be some finality to the transaction and those responsible for advising Ontario people about the validity of a real estate transaction can advise them with some certainty. Section 5(2) is far, far less than certain.",
"I am impressed with the reports that I obtained from that Canadian bar meeting and also from the comments, and I didn’t hear them, attributed to Mr. Stephenson who apparently shares my doubts and apparently shares the doubts of those lawyers who raised it at some substantial length at that meeting. I think it’s up to the minister to resolve those doubts in a forceful manner and to indicate to us how we are going to be able to establish, or how anyone who has to deal with this Act is going to be able to establish, that once they have received a certificate, that it is, in fact, valid; that it is valid even if there are one or two or three or half a dozen transactions emerging on the same day; that it applies to all of them; and that the person signing has the kind of authority which he should sign.",
"It seems to be 5 of the clock, Mr. Chairman, and it is my understanding of the rules that we get into another order of business at this time. It may be at 8 o’clock that I might have some more words to say on section 5(2).",
"Hon. Mr. Winkler moves that the committee rise and report.",
"Motion agreed to.",
"The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the committee of the whole House reports progress and asks for leave to sit again.",
"Report agreed to."
]
}
] |
May 27, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-27/hansard-1
|
PRIVATE MEMBERS’ HOUR
|
[] |
May 27, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-27/hansard-1
|
NOTICE OF MOTION NO. 4
|
[
{
"speaker": "Clerk of the House",
"text": [
"Notice of motion No. 4, by Mr. Drea.",
"Resolution: That the government of Ontario through the Minister of Transportation and Communications review its present policy of granting exclusive licences for the sale of gasoline products and maintenance of restaurant facilities on the province’s controlled access interurban highways."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. F. Drea (Scarborough Centre)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I move resolution No. 4."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The member for Scarborough Centre moves resolution No. 4."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Drea",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this resolution is to have the Ministry of Transportation and Communications take a long look at the service facilities that are being offered to the public -- particularly the food facilities that are offered to the travelling public after Labour Day and before May 24. It seems to me, as a person who uses Highways 401 and 400 particularly, that while the quality of service and the quality of food does not match the top dollar prices being charged in the summer months or in the peak travel months, the service disintegrates, particularly in regard to quality, once the summer tourism ends.",
"I suppose there is a reason for that, Mr. Speaker, because the volume of traffic obviously does go down once the summer months are ended. However these facilities, when they were allowed to be erected, represented a fundamental change in government policy, particularly on Highway 401.",
"If you recall in the beginning, as Highway 401 was built, the policy was that we would erect signs at the appropriate cloverleaf so that people would be able to go off of the highway for their food and for gasoline and service to their automobiles. Then, Mr. Speaker, we turned full about and we set up rather permanent leases right on Highway 401. Mind you, we have never really sifted out exactly what we wanted to do because we still have the signs offering, food, fuel and accommodation at the particular cloverleafs. But nonetheless, for the tourists and for the salesmen or the truck driver or those who are using cars in the wintertime, we have the sole and exclusive institutions on the highway.",
"Quite frankly, sir, I personally regard the quality of service, and particularly the quality of the food in respect to the prices that are being charged, an affront to the travelling public. I think the time has come for the government to get out of the food business. The truth of the matter is it is as much our fault as that of the private proprietors that this situation has developed.",
"I think the time has come for us to get out of the food business, out of the gasoline business, out of the service business. Because the responsibility for the quality of food is ours. If you read through the leases that are offered to the oil companies, we say that 40 cents on the dollar out of the restaurant facilities must come from food. That is an extremely high amount. Consequently it leads to inflated food prices.",
"Secondly, because of the fact that the service centres have to be open 24 hours a day, seven days a week, the gasoline costs more. I suppose that on the basis of the money they have to pay us through the tender, on the basis of having help around the clock, on the basis of other costs, particularly in the winter months, they feel justified in getting a premium price -- not only for premium gasoline but for the regular gasoline. Because of this, Mr. Speaker, the travelling public -- not only as tourists in the summertime, but in the wintertime as people who are by necessity using Highway 401, in particular, as the main thoroughfare of the province -- is literally being held up to ransom.",
"Mr. Speaker, I think it is fair to say that people who travel by automobile in other jurisdictions will find the same thing occurring on the older American toll roads where they do have sole and exclusive licences. I think if you try to match the quality of food or service on the New York Thruway, where they do have this system, against the quality of food, the price, the opportunity for choice, and the price of gasoline on the Interstate highways in the United States, where they do not have the leasehold centre on the highways but where instead it is located at the cloverleafs, there is a vast difference where local enterprise, local people, usually through the franchise system operated by the oil companies, do have the ability to compete for the dollar of the travelling public. For those who are used to travelling the Interstate highways in the United States, at virtually every cloverleaf there is the choice of at least two facilities and very often four.",
"I suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that competition rather than exclusive leaseholds, does provide -- at least in the only comparable jurisdiction that we can look at -- a far better deal for the travelling public.",
"We have 19 service centres on Highway 401 and all 19 are engaged very actively in skimming. They make their maximum dollar in the summertime and once the heavy tourist season is over the customer is virtually on his own. It is virtually impossible to get food service, even in the better ones, because most of them resort to cafeterias in the wintertime since that eliminates the need for help. In other words, you are still paying top dollar and you are serving yourself while they avoid the labour costs.",
"I think it is very interesting that in the leases it says you will have a restaurant facility capable of holding 150 persons and then it puts in brackets “cafeteria optional or supplementary.” Mr. Speaker, they’ve gone to cafeterias, at least the ones that I’ve been in, because it is much cheaper to operate in the wintertime, because you avoid the help.",
"Looking through the leases, we have looked at everything from the quality of water, from how they have to sand the highway or the entrances into them, to the illumination, to the grading, to what happens to the top soil, to the building itself -- it has to be designed in such and such a way -- as I have said, the question of the eating area capable of seating not less than 150 people. We even give them a traffic survey as to how many cars are going by now on the average, how many will be going by in the 1980’s.",
"We regulate the service prices. We tell them that without our permission they can’t sell anything that other restaurants do not sell -- I don’t know what that would be -- but none the less, we go to great lengths on this. We even make them refrigerate their garbage. We say that all refuse must be refrigerated, presumably in some kind of cold storage, until it can be removed. We go to great lengths that way.",
"Then we come down to the only thing we care about with the food, it must be of high quality, particularly in light of the debate in the committee of the whole on the land speculation tax, high quality as a standard does not impress me as something that can be enforced very readily. Indeed, who is to enforce it? We also get to the point where anything on the menu, both in terms of its quality and its cost, must be approved by the ministry.",
"Mr. Speaker, when we are in the position that these people are tendering large amounts of money -- and we’ve seen the example where one perfectly good restaurant facility on Highway 400 is being demolished and a new one being built because the competing oil company has offered a higher price in return for a long-term lease -- when we see things like that, it seems to me that the travelling public does have the right to expect a little bit more than it is getting now.",
"First of all, I fail to see why we have devised such a system and such a payment of leases that it is virtually impossible to get table service eight or nine months of the year at centres that are located not for the convenience of the Ministry of Transportation and Communications but for the convenience of the people who are driving. I fail to see why, in most of them, it is impossible to get a cup of coffee or some light meal for eight or nine months of the year.",
"Granted, on the basis of their projections and their tenders, I expect that they are going to do the bulk of their business in the summertime. But, Mr. Speaker, we have allowed them to have a sole and exclusive licence, not just for June, July, August and part of September; but 24 hours a day, seven days a week.",
"These leases are for 25 years. It doesn’t say anything in them that there will be one standard during the warm weather, and during the rest of the year, let the motorist beware. They are supposed to maintain the same standard.",
"I suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that under the present tendering arrangements, the present lease arrangements and the present entire inspection system, these service centres have turned into a rather intriguing product of the bureaucratic mind; and the persons who pay the most -- the motorist and his passengers, because they’re having to pay for it -- are the last people to be considered.",
"As I say, if you look through these leases you will see that great attention is paid to the water supply, to the sewage disposal system and to a great many other things. They may be very necessary for the community; they may be very necessary for the proper maintenance of the highway. But there are pages and pages and pages of convenience to the ministry, and very few lines of convenience to the travelling public.",
"Mr. Speaker, we should look at the fact that in the tourist months these service centres are the first and, I am rather afraid, the last particular piece of Ontario observed by visitors from other provinces or particularly from the United States. Frankly, if I was a tourist from the United States and hit one of the service centres on Highway 401 as my introduction to Ontario, I rather suspect that the memory might stay with me for a long time.",
"Since tourism is an integral part of the economy of this province, it seems to me that the Ministry of Transportation and Communications has to come up with a better way of supplying more than the essentials -- because gasoline, oil, towing and all the things that go with the car certainly are essential on a controlled-access highway. But certainly since we have entered into the time when we say there also must be something of convenience -- because these aren’t just centres to merchandise petroleum and ancillary products; there are very large dining rooms and other facilities there -- if we are really interested in building up tourism and in encouraging people to travel, then we’ll have to take a long look at what we have created by these long-term leases and at what we have created by this 40 cents on the dollar coming from food. People in the restaurant business will tell you that 30 cents on the dollar for food is getting high, 35 cents on the dollar is getting very high, and that you really have to charge if you are in the 40-cent category.",
"Granted, almost all of the restaurants are captives of the major oil companies. I think that is another reason that we should have a little look. I have very little confidence in the ability of the American oil companies -- because all of them are American -- I have very little regard for them when they become concerned about the convenience of Canadian drivers. After all, they’re the same oil companies that just jacked the price by 10 cents a gallon. They are the same oil companies whose corporate responsibility extends to the point where some of them have ceased their drilling and exploration because they feel that the future of Canada is rather uncertain.",
"I think that to leave the fate of the travelling public to that kind of corporate decision-maker is really asking for it, despite the fact that the Ministry of Transportation and Communications has tried, in its own way, to set up leases that will do something for the public.",
"Mr. Speaker, I think we should also realize that once you are on Highway 401, and because of the nature of the economics of the petroleum industry in the way that they service people, you are almost a captive of your credit card. When you are a captive of your credit card for the petroleum products for your car, you are almost a captive of whatever restaurant facilities have been supplied by your particular oil company.",
"I realize that you can go another 45 or 54 miles down the road and that may be convenient in the tourist season. But I suggest that in the winter months, during the fall months or in the spring months, the people who drive the highway by necessity for business are trying to get from point A to point B in the shortest period of time, you don’t want to be in a position where you have to buy gasoline at one place, but because you know the quality of food is bad there you’re going to have to stop at the next one to eat. I think that in terms of convenience to the motoring public that is asking a bit much.",
"As I say, Mr. Speaker, in the United States when the controlled access road began, it was a toll road and the leaseholds were prevalent. When the Interstate highways came in -- they are not toll roads -- the decision was made that they would not have the service centres on them. Highway 401 with its cutoffs and its cloverleafs, lends itself admirably to a system whereby the food, the fuel, and, as the sign says, the accommodation can be built off our highways",
"Granted the same oil companies would still have a big say, because they determine the location of stations. But nonetheless they would be competing across the road from each other and this is a big difference than competing 45 or 55 miles down the highway. It would also be a significant departure because once you are off the highway there are other competing places as well, if you want to go a little bit further. You are talking about a mile or two perhaps instead of those 45 miles.",
"Mr. Speaker, I don’t fault the ministry, when it was the Ministry of Highways, for introducing the leasehold on Highway 401. I think in some regard they were influenced by the fact that the two leaseholds on Highway 400 at that time were working, and working much better than what has since been the result on Highway 401. But just because something was entered into a few years ago does not mean that we cannot terminate it. It might cost us funds and in fact it would cost us funds, but I suggest those funds would be very wisely spent. If we have a tourist budget and all we can offer as a first impression and perhaps a last impression of this province are the service centres on Highway 401, then I suggest we are undercutting our whole tourist programme.",
"Mr. Speaker, I haven’t asked that the programme and the leaseholds be terminated. I have asked that they be reviewed. There may be steps that the ministry can take in a new policy that would make the service centre really operate -- where the key word was service, where you would have to pay a dollar, but in return you would get your dollar’s worth.",
"I suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that unless and until the ministry officials move in, not only the tourist but the person who uses that road for the purpose for which it was built, which was to facilitate industry and business in this province, is being very badly victimized by a system that apparently cannot work -- and apparently no one cares to see if improvements or changes can be made to see that it does become a service and convenience to the motorist."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. P. Spence (Kent)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure for me to take part in this debate on the resolution of the hon. member for Scarborough Centre. I find it very interesting that a government member would raise a question of reviewing the government policy of granting exclusive licences for the sale of gasoline products and the maintenance of restaurant facilities on Ontario’s controlled access interurban highways. Had the government listened to the members of the opposition back in 1962, they would not have initiated their present policy in the first place. At that time, as today, we frequently had the occasion to express our grave concern about the government’s lack of planning.",
"First of all, they said no outlets would be permitted on these expressways in the Province of Ontario."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. Gisborn (Hamilton East)",
"text": [
"Let the member tell him; we told the government what he said years ago. They were wrong then and they are wrong now."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Drea",
"text": [
"No, but they listened."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. D. A. Paterson (Essex South)",
"text": [
"Is the member for Scarborough Centre going to be Minister of Labour?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Spence",
"text": [
"This led a number of businessmen to establish service facilities at what is known as strategic points of access to this expressway. Later the government announced its decision to purchase the right of way to permit the installation of service outlets -- outlets actually on the main road.",
"Whether the government did, in fact, change its point of view on this question at that time, or whether the right of way was planned from the outset and this was concealed by the government for reasons of its own, is still a debatable point in the minds of many. The fact remains that a number of taxpayers invested considerable money in establishing service stations off the main highways, which were doomed to failure once the service outlets were permitted on the right of way. However, we could hardly expect the government to be concerned about the taxpayers’ money, unless there is a possibility of the government finding a method of spending more of it.",
"The then Minister of Highways stalled, as usual, when the opposition asked if tenders had been called for service stations, either by invitation to the general public or general advertising, or whether a selective group of people had been invited to tender. My hon. friend from Downsview at that time asked if tenders had been limited to oil companies or whether the individual would be successful if he made an application. When pressed by the opposition at that time, the minister finally admitted that public tenders had not been called for. In fact, only major oil companies had been given the opportunity. He did have the grace to admit that this had perhaps been an error of judgement -- “perhaps,” he said at that time -- but made the excuse that the government hoped in this way to obtain the best possible service facilities to the travelling public that used these expressways. However, I might say, I can remember delegations coming and protesting these service centres being located in different areas along the expressway.",
"We proposed at that time the idea of the government giving consideration to building these service centres and leasing them on an open competitive bidding basis, but the minister could see no advantage in using public funds for this purpose when private enterprise was prepared to build and operate these facilities. The government acknowledged it had no control over prices to be charged at these service stations, expressing the opinion that the oil companies are responsible people in business in a big way in this province.",
"There is no question that the oil companies are in business in a big way in this province and certainly they are responsible -- responsible for making a profit; responsible to their shareholders; responsible to their boards of directors. The government is responsible, too -- responsible to the taxpayers of Ontario because, in a way, every taxpayer in this province is a shareholder in this government, would like to think that the government takes its responsibility for its shareholders as seriously as the oil companies take their responsibilities for their shareholders.",
"As to the Minister of Highways not wishing to utilize public funds, in providing the lighting at these service stations and in paying for the paving of the approaches to these service centres -- the government owns the land on which the service centre is located -- indirectly the taxpayers of this province are helping to subsidize very profitable operations for the oil companies, which could hardly be regarded as eligible for public assistance.",
"Mr. Speaker, when the estimates of the Ministry of Transportation and Communications were before the committee at the last session, we asked the minister what was the revenue derived by the government from all these service centres on our expressways. He informed us the government would receive $2.5 million last year, which is a lot of money for the government.",
"However, I might say that the travelling public’s view is changing today in regard to vacationing. We know that the vacationer is tenting. He uses a camper; he uses a trailer and he has different ideas. I go right along with the member for Scarborough Centre on reviewing the leases of the gas companies, because I think times change and the government must change with the times. I agree with the member for Scarborough Centre. I think the government should review these leases because I think some changes could be made.",
"In the past 10 years or so, it has become very obvious that these service outlets on our highways are very well patronized and are very profitable, I would think, for the oil companies. Some travellers have expressed the opinion that the restaurant facilities are quite expensive and I am particularly concerned that the quality of the food and beverages sold leaves a great deal to be desired in some instances.",
"These service outlets attract not only Canadian travellers but tourists visiting this country, particularly from the United States, and it is important that the operation of these facilities is of the highest possible standard. I am aware, of course, that certain basic standards of safety and hygiene have to be observed by law. Something more than this is necessary when one considers that these service outlets are frequently the only facility available to travellers on our expressways across the Province of Ontario.",
"Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Industry and Tourism (Mr. Bennett) spends considerable money each year encouraging people to visit Ontario. It seems very foolish to allow visitors to think that the food and services offered in parts of Ontario at these service centres are expensive and inferior, simply because the government does not exercise more control over the service outlets and adjacent restaurant facilities. There is another reason why I say these leases should be reviewed. I think about two years ago the food industry in this province was going through difficult financial times. I brought it to the attention of the Minister of Agriculture and Food (Mr. Stewart) and asked him to look into the possibilities to see if fruit stands could be located at these service centres across the Province of Ontario."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Paterson",
"text": [
"A good idea."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Spence",
"text": [
"This would not only be of benefit to the travelling public, but it would be of great benefit to the fruit growers across the province."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I must say the hon. member’s time has now been completed."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Spence",
"text": [
"I’m sorry. I would just close by saying I think the whole question of licensing the service outlets should be reviewed without delay. For this reason, I would like to express my support for the resolution put forward by the hon. member for Scarborough Centre."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Windsor West."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. E. J. Bounsall (Windsor West)",
"text": [
"Thank you Mr. Speaker. I listened with interest to the remarks of the mover of the resolution in order to see behind the resolution as written what his detailed thinking was. Certainly an uncomplicated, surface glance at the resolution on the order paper is one that we over here could support.",
"We could support it from the aspect of the exclusive licences section in it, because we are against monopolies of any kind. Exclusive licences are one form of it. We are against monopolies in all other areas, including the food area. Here there are the supermarket areas, and the large companies such as Kraft cornering or almost cornering large sections of particular food products, and so on. So because we are unhappy with exclusive licences, long-term as they are, in context of the way the resolution is written, we could support the resolution.",
"We certainly are suspicious, as I’m sure the general public are, with exclusive contracts and how they are arrived at and so on. The situation as it exists on Highway 401 -- I’m very familiar with the Windsor to Toronto stretch of 401 -- is very unfortunate in at least two aspects.",
"One is that the government having set up this type of arrangement the public should be able to expect service at these service centres, be it oil products, mechanical repairs or food. I am sure we have all experienced -- at least those of us who have travel- led 401 to any degree -- developing some car trouble, going into one of these service centres and finding that our car will have to be towed to the nearest town in order that 15 minutes of mechanical work can be done on it. This was all because there was no pretence even of providing a mechanic at these so-called service centres in the car repair area.",
"If you wanted to buy a whole range of gasoline or car-related products they were there. But mechanical service was absolutely non-existent.",
"I can give you two instances. Both, I must admit, were after 7 o’clock at night, and maybe there is a cutoff time for service -- but there shouldn’t be. Both instances occurred in well-travelled seasons of the year and there was no licensed mechanic or anybody experienced much beyond putting the gas in your tank at service centres between Windsor and Toronto. Both cases resulted in having to be towed to the nearest town for what turned out to be rather uncomplicated adjustments. But they were ones which I wasn’t capable of making myself, nor was there anyone there who would even look at it to attempt to do it. That’s the kind of service, or lack of it, which should not be allowed to occur on these exclusive premises. It was a decision on the part of the government to have them there.",
"In the area of food, having travelled the Windsor to Toronto route very often I know at which overpasses to turn off to attend restaurants which I have found to be of decent quality with a large range on the menu. I am particularly disturbed -- not so much because of some of the individual items on the service centre menu, some of which are very good -- but because of the limitations of the menu. Again, not all of the service centre restaurant facilities have converted to self-service, although most have done so that I have encountered. When they convert to self-service, their menus become contracted. And it is almost an unappetizing experience to walk into the self-serve food centres that have grown up.",
"I am not sure what our policy should be at this point. The member for Scarborough Centre came close -- I am not sure whether he did or not do so completely -- but he came close to saying we should abandon the whole policy of these restaurants and remove them from the highways. Perhaps we are a little late to do that now. The mistake was made in the very beginning in allowing it.",
"However, looking at the situation, I rather fear what could grow up, which is four service stations at each turn-off. That to me is less aesthetically pleasing, certainly, than the service centres we have on the highway, which for all their lack of service in a mechanical or food line, at least are rather presentable looking.",
"Many of them it seems, have gone out of their way -- I don’t know whether it is a Transportation regulation or not -- to provide picnic areas at which anyone can pull in and eat his entire lunch or dinner should he have it with him. Is that a regulation? That’s a requirement. I am glad to see, at least, that requirement is stipulated.",
"I certainly agree with the member for Scarborough Centre that if these service centres are allowed to continue, there should be much tighter regulations and higher standards which they are required to live up to. I was quite intrigued by the comment of the member for Scarborough Centre, in reading from the regulations, that every improvement on the menu has to be approved by the minister. I would think it should read the reverse, to the effect that there should be very high standards and anything dropped from the menu must be approved by the minister.",
"I can see restaurant operators worrying about the bureaucracy involved in adding to or upgrading something in the menus of their restaurants. But certainly it should be the reverse situation with worry and concern when something is dropped from their menus.",
"Mr. Speaker, I don’t like the idea of these exclusive licences. I regret that we got into them in the first place. If they are to be continued I would hope that they would be of short term and not be of 25 years duration for either the service stations or the restaurants, and that they all be tendered, in fact, separately for a period of no more than perhaps three to five years. Certainly suggestions that other products be added to these sites, such as fruit stands in the appropriate season, provided they were again kept in good repair and appearance, would be an advantage."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Durham."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. A. Carruthers (Durham)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to share in this discussion, and in reading the resolution of the member for Scarborough Centre, I do not find it too difficult for any one to support a review by the Ministry of Transportation and Communications of its present policy and, no doubt, this policy is being reviewed at all times.",
"I think before we can really pass judgement on the present policy or ask for a special review, we should understand the present policy and the reason for its adoption. Under the present policy, of course, the government chooses the sites, and I think wisely so, Mr. Speaker, because this protects the local municipalities. I have two on-highway centres in my riding and four off-highway centres on the same Highway 401, but none of them really interfere with local service stations in the towns. In Bowmanville they are located fairly close, but the Flying Dutchman outlet has always been providing this service so the competition is keen but not too severe.",
"On the other hand, I do know that if you allowed service centres at every intersection you could make it very difficult for operators to do business economically. I think we have to protect these people from themselves to a degree. I have had a number of requests from private individuals to get into this field but, Mr. Speaker, it involves a capital outlay of between $3 and $4 million, and I don’t know how many individuals are in a position to invest that amount of risk capital in that type of a venture. That is one of the reasons, I believe, behind the ministry’s policy of inviting tenders for these centres. I think these centres were established -- perhaps there was a change of policy -- but I think they were established as a result of public demand.",
"I am just back from a 6,500-mile tour of the western part of the United States and the central states, and I have never found any centres that can compare with the service centres on Highway 401. I think we should be very proud of the service we are providing. Certainly it may not be up to the highest of standards, but on Highway 80 west from Chicago right through to the west coast you have to get well off the highway before you can find suitable restaurant facilities.",
"The government in choosing the sites must ensure that there are good sewage and water facilities available and this requires a great deal of research. Certainly regardless of who chooses that site there are going to have to be controls. The oil company or whoever undertakes the construction of one of these centres is responsible for all the construction. They are responsible for all the services and subject to government inspection and government control and I think that is good. We have to maintain our standards and I think that those centres, two of them in my own riding, set the standard for the other outlets at various other intersections.",
"These facilities are leased on a 25-year basis. I think it should be noted, Mr. Speaker, and it wasn’t pointed out before, that after the 25-year lease term is up these facilities become the property of the ministry or the government of the Province of Ontario. In that respect, as was pointed out by the member for Kent, the public is protected to a major degree.",
"The site having been chosen, the present policy is to invite tenders from the major oil companies because these are the people who, apparently up to this time, have the capital and are particularly interested in the field. They sublet the restaurant facilities to private operators. They are tendered on a percentage basis, with the government getting a percentage of the revenue. The highest tender on a percentage basis -- which is going to provide the greatest revenue to the government -- will no doubt get favourable consideration. That seems to be a sound policy to follow.",
"As I stated before the capital investment is between $3 and $4 million. Regardless of who operates these facilities, certainly they are going to have to be inspected and kept under government control at all times. No doubt the present policy adopted is due in no small part to the fact of inviting tenders. These are the only people who are in a position to invest that amount of capital. I would certainly, in any review of the present policy, suggest that some of the larger motel owners -- say Holiday Inn, Howard Johnson, I’m just talking off the top of my head now -- these people might also be interested in providing tenders. We might go as far as opening it up wide to the public, although I don’t know that the response from the general public would be very great. No doubt the thinking of the ministry from the time of the inception of this policy has been that it’s practical to invite tenders from those in the best position to provide capital.",
"I agree with the member for Scarborough Centre that perhaps the time is opportune for a review of the policy. As far as food is concerned -- and the member pointed this out -- 40 cents out of every dollar of the total revenue of each of these restaurants must be represented in food content. While he says this representation is fairly high, they still appear to be able to operate economically and make a profit. On that percentage basis, the food standards should be very high.",
"If we open the tenders to the general public those tenders are going to have to be examined carefully by some government body. Otherwise, we could have a great number of failures. I am of the firm opinion, that while the present policy appears to be adequate -- certainly it’s always open for review -- but in order to ensure financial responsibility and that experience and ability to operate these centres is available and in order to provide a high standard of service, government must play an important role in the operation of these outlets."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Essex-Kent."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Ruston (Essex-Kent)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have a few brief remarks to make with regard to this resolution. In the last year’s estimates of the Ministry of Transportation and Communications we did discuss some matters with regard to service centres at that time.",
"I will not repeat that discussion at this time, Mr. Speaker. I am interested in the subject. And, of course, travelling a lot on Highway 401, I have had occasion when I’ve had to use the services of these centres. I did hear someone a few minutes ago mention that the service work done on a car was not too good. I’ve had only a couple of occasions when I’ve had to have tires and water hose replaced and had it done efficiently and I didn’t have any particular complaint about that. I would question whether you could have a licensed mechanic on duty 24 hours a day and whether the cost would merit it, I’m not sure -- maybe there would be some objection to the number of garages in any particular area. I would question whether that would be a good idea.",
"What I am concerned about is that we have service centres varying from 40 to 50 miles apart. Of course, in a number of other areas you’ll see signs for food and accommodation and so forth. One day I got a letter from the ministry with regard to having a food and fuel sign in one of the towns in my area. The guidelines the ministry used for it read like this:",
"“Our accommodations, food and fuel sign is erected when accommodations, and at least one of the other two services, are available in sufficient quantities, and the legend ‘accommodations’ is used where there are two or more enterprises offering overnight accommodations and where there are at least a total of 12 units available.”",
"And also gas must be available. So those signs are restricted to services of that type.",
"What I am concerned about is that I’ve had people say -- and one person in particular told me he was stopped on Highway 401 for 1 1/2 hours and couldn’t get anybody to stop. He stood beside his car for that length of time. Now, I’ve noticed in the US, in the State of Michigan, that in between cutoffs, gas stations, and so forth, they have what they call rest centres. I would think that we should have rest centres in between the present service centres. And I would class a rest centre as a place where you can drive in, get a drink of water, which has washroom facilities, perhaps a picnic table and a place to park your car. I noticed in Michigan a number of truckers would stop in there and maybe have a snooze for an hour or so. I was only in Michigan during the summer months when I stopped at some of these centres. I assume they are only open probably from May 1 to Oct. 1. They also have a telephone, so I think that would be an added service we could give to the travelling public.",
"It is pretty frustrating to be out on 401 when cars are going by you at 75 miles an hour, and no one wants to stop, to know just what to do. If you can have some other facilities a little closer together, even if there is only a telephone available, or something like that, or where somebody else might be stopped resting, you could get some assistance.",
"I think that is something we should be looking at, rather than having everything all at the one place, like now where the campgrounds and everything are all with the service centre. I would think that a campground should be built in between each service centre, so you wouldn’t have much more than 20 or 25 miles to go between each point in case you had some need to stop.",
"As far as food quality goes, I believe there is room for improvement in some of the centres, although coming in today I stopped -- and I suppose it depends on what is on the menu, but I got a bowl of soup, a piece of pie and a cup of coffee, and it was $1.25, which would seem to me about the going rate of charge. And I might say it was very tasty.",
"Of course, at this time of the year, when there is more business, the centre is much more likely to have fresh supplies, so naturally the food is better. The problem is in the wintertime, about January, when there is only the odd car stopping. Maybe on the midnight shift I would think -- and I have never run a restaurant -- but it seems to me you would have to use frozen food and such things as that in order to be able to supply a meal. I don’t think you could keep fresh food. There is a disadvantage, when you have 24-hour service the year around, in operating these.",
"But what bothers me some is what perhaps we should have done in the first place. The government should have built the buildings and leased them out on a five-year basis, and then if we found that the lessees were not doing a good job, we could then cancel their lease and get someone else in. That is the advantage in owning it yourself. It would have meant some capital outlay, but I don’t know, when we have the highway there, it seems to me that we could have afforded to put in the buildings and provided the facilities, and then leased them out or rented them out.",
"I might say on these points that I have been discussing locating half-way between service centres, rest centres, these might be the ideal places for vegetable and fruit stands to be put in. It wouldn’t interfere then with the general business of the other centres.",
"In order to allow some other member to speak, Mr. Speaker, I will withdraw now."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Yorkview."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. F. Young (Yorkview)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I too feel that the resolution is drawn in such a way that it is like motherhood, everyone is in favour of it. Certainly in a review of any policy anywhere there is always good and I think all of us agree that any government policy or any policy of any private company or anything of this nature would, or should, come in for periodic review. So that we are not going to quarrel, any of us I think, with the general attitude that that review should take place.",
"I would like to say this: In the travelling that I have done, and I used to do much more than I do now, I have found these centres along the highway a very great convenience. I think the second last member who spoke also expressed that fact. I think this is something which we ought to emphasize, even though we criticize some aspects of the operations. I think we have to recognize that it was good, sensible policy to put the service complexes along the high- way where people could simply pull off and get the kind of servicing, for motor car and for themselves, that they desire. That part of it I think is good -- that whole situation.",
"Perhaps the whole idea of getting the ideas of what each oil company might do, then in a sense, giving the highest bidder, the contract for building and operating these centres for a period of 25 years, was where we made a fundamental error. We were building highways and spending many millions of dollars per mile on these highways, and it seems to me there is no reason why we shouldn’t have had the foresight to incorporate these centres as a fundamental part of that highway. It just meant that instead of building 100 miles of highway, we were building 102 or 103 miles of highway, in terms of cost. Then our own department could have operated these service centres, and seen to it that provincial standards were maintained.",
"As far as winter service is concerned, I have had some quarrel with some of the centres -- but not all. One doesn’t expect the same kind of food service in the wintertime, although perhaps it should be quicker than in the summer, when there are great crowds coming and food can be bought in larger quantities and disposed of more quickly.",
"However, it seems to me that something might be done here in the way of signing at these service centres, simply telling people that the service is limited during the winter months, and if they want full hotel accommodation and meals in fancy restaurants, they simply drive on three or four miles and turn west or east, whatever it may be, off a certain highway to a small town and they will find hotel facilities there.",
"But I have also found that even the smaller hotels, the kind you find in the great many of the smaller towns, don’t have the winter service that they have in the summer, because they don’t have the same crowds coming through. This is not an easy answer to give. But the answer suggested by the hon. member who introduced the resolution, to perhaps do away with these and locate the service centres at the cloverleaf and to let private enterprise take them over entirely, seems to me to be a fallacy. Because I have not found that the service in those particular types of restaurants or service stations in the United States was at all superior to our own.",
"More than that, if we are going to locate two or three of these at a cloverleaf, then, in the wintertime particularly, the small number of customers will be divided two and three ways and the service probably will be at a lower level of efficiency than if all the customers had to come through the one gate and through the one service centre.",
"Mr. Speaker, it seems to me that the province itself can do a great deal in the future, as leases run out and as these come back into the property of the province, to do the kinds of things which some of us have outlined by the province itself taking over the operation of the facilities which are there and which will be in the public domain. More than that, as we plan new ones, I think we should integrate them into the Ministry of Transportation and Communications and make them part of the highways run by that ministry. I believe that the Ministry of Transportation and Communications, in spite of all the propaganda, can do an efficient job in its own field and in this field too."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The private members’ hour is now concluded."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Clerk of the House",
"text": [
"Second order, House in committee of the whole."
]
}
] |
May 27, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-27/hansard-1
|
LAND SPECULATION TAX ACT (CONTINUED)
|
[] |
May 27, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-27/hansard-1
|
REGIONAL GOVERNMENT TRANSITIONAL GRANTS
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Oh, that is the way they will do it.",
"On behalf of the mayor of Whitby, can the Treasurer explain the decision that was made not to give transitional grants to that lower-tier municipality in the new regional government, evidently the only one not treated to the transitional grant formula as was expected?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"Well sir, I will offer an answer. Unfortunately, I brought all of the data with me yesterday to answer this question in full and I didn’t bring it today, thinking it wasn’t going to come up.",
"Very briefly, the situation is this: When an area is regionalized there are two forms of transitional grants, one to meet the extraordinary costs for the region as a whole and the other to accommodate certain boundary changes within the region. The latter form of transitional grant goes to the area municipalities. Since Whitby had no changes in its boundaries as a result of regionalization, it was thought not to qualify for this particular form of transitional grant.",
"The tentative figures went out to the region and to the area municipalities a week or two ago and, of course, as I say, Whitby was not on the list. The mayor of Whitby makes the point that they shouldn’t be punished or penalized because their boundaries were altered five years ago."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Nobody could have been more co-operative than the mayor."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"I think there is some merit in this argument, and I’ve asked my officials to reconsider the suggested grants -- because that’s all they are at the present time -- and I would hope that something can be worked out that is more or less acceptable to all of those concerned."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"That’s interesting."
]
}
] |
May 24, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-24/hansard
|
TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE TO INDIA FOR NUCLEAR REACTOR DEVELOPMENT
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"I’d like to ask the Premier if he has interested himself in the relationship of Ontario Hydro with the developments in India which have led to their exploding an atomic bomb? Are we still continuing with an exchange of technical experts at the top level with Douglas Point and our other atomic facilities? And was Ontario Hydro technology, which assisted in the establishment of the reactor, involved in this matter in any way?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. G. Davis (Premier)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I can’t help the Leader of the Opposition with any information this morning. But I have asked for information as to what people from Hydro or what technology was made available, if any, and I hope to have that some time early next week."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"A supplementary: Since it’s now Canadian government policy to stop technical aid and the transference of any materials, might we presume that the policy of Ontario Hydro, which I believe called for the exchange of technicians, would at least be reviewed?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I can only assume, and it’s only an assumption at this point, that anything that is done by Ontario Hydro would be done through the Department of External Affairs in Ottawa; in any event, I would assume that it would be done at their request. If they have cut off any further co-operation with India, that probably would include any personnel from Hydro. But as I say, Mr. Speaker, that’s only an assumption, and I will have this information early next week."
]
}
] |
May 24, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-24/hansard
|
ALGONQUIN PARK EXPANSION
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Another question of the Premier, in the absence of the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Bernier), pertaining to the announcement, evidently made by a press officer of the Ministry of Natural Resources, about the substantial expansion of Algonquin Park. Is the Premier in a position to make a policy statement with regard to that, perhaps indicating how he is going to fulfill the previous commitment to establish an Algonquin Forest Authority, whether in fact there is a possibility of reviewing that concept and establishing instead a commission that would therefore not be overseeing the logging operations in the park, but in fact would be having a broader aspect in the policy, possibly dealing with the abolition of the logging programme there?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, that is still the intent of the government, and the minister is working very diligently on the proposed legislation to have an authority for Algonquin Park; hopefully we will have it introduced before we recess for the summer months."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"A supplementary: What would be the reasoning whereby an information officer would make a statement on the substantial expansion of the park, since it will, of course, involve public moneys, but it also is involved in an area of policy of broad provincial concern?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I can’t answer that question. It’s a personal policy of mine that any significant government policy is not announced by an information officer, but hopefully by myself. I can’t state for the minister why this happened on this occasion. I believe he will be here Monday or Tuesday and could give the Leader of the Opposition an answer."
]
}
] |
May 24, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-24/hansard
|
HOUSING PROGRAMMES
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"I’d like to ask the Minister of Housing if his statisticians and those who gather specific material for him on the changing costs of housing and its availability in the province, have given him a more recent, updated report on the effects of provincial government policy, the mortgage policy of the government of Canada and the availability of mortgage funds to meet the changing prices of housing accommodation in Toronto and Ontario in general?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. S. B. Handleman (Minister of Housing)",
"text": [
"In reply to the hon. member, first of all I should say we have no research statistical capacity in the ministry but we do receive reports from a variety of sources. All I can say at this time is that the situation, particularly with regard to mortgages, is very confused; the confusion having been caused by a series of announcements, coming during an election campaign which is going on, about there being some changes being made in mortgage arrangements by the federal government through the banks, and the lending institutions are completely unsure of their position at this time. The Bank of Canada having adjusted the prime rate twice over the past month has certainly caused a degree of uncertainty in the money market.",
"The indication and information that we’ve received is that the mortgage market at this time is in a state of confusion, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"A supplementary: Would the minister not feel that since the market is in a state of confusion, at least a substantial part of that is due to the confusion associated with the bill that is still being debated in the Legislature, which according to lawyers in this province -- who must contact the minister, as the member for his own area, as they have other members -- is in fact adding a measure of confusion which may mean that the sales of properties will have to grind to a stop until government policy in this regard is clarified?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"The member is talking to the wrong lawyer."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Is the minister aware that at the meeting of lawyers held the day before yesterday, the government appeared a complete laughing stock because it could not bring officials forward who even knew the principles and concepts of the bill that is presently before the House?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)",
"text": [
"And there were 1,500 of them."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Of course, my colleague the Minister of Revenue (Mr. Meen), will answer for the contents of the bill."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Not very well."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"As far as its effect on the housing market is concerned, the only effects that we have seen have been beneficial."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"A complete standstill. A complete stop."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. S. Lewis (Scarborough West)",
"text": [
"A supplementary, if I may: Mr. Speaker, the minister is forever quoting his friend Donald Kirkup. Would he like to comment on Mr. Kirkup’s most recent statement? He said, and I quote:",
"I’m predicting that with the vacancy rate now approaching an all-time low and with all types of housing starts likely to decline 20 per cent, it won’t be long before house prices begin to rise at substantial rates."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"I suppose, Mr. Speaker, for once I can disagree with Mr. Kirkup. The information we have --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. L. A. Braithwaite (Etobicoke)",
"text": [
"Only ministers can change their minds."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"-- is that real estate listings are up, many homes are available at reduced prices and prices are levelling off."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. A. Renwick (Riverdale)",
"text": [
"The minister doesn’t have the information on which he can base a statement like that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. D. C. MacDonald (York South)",
"text": [
"That’s off the top of his head."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Those statements are coming to us every day, Mr. Speaker. As far as the trend is concerned, we see it turning rapidly into a buyer’s market."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"No thanks to the opposition."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. Cassidy (Ottawa Centre)",
"text": [
"Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Would the minister --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. D. M. Deacon (York Centre)",
"text": [
"Would the minister kindly --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Ottawa Centre."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"I thought it was in order?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Would the minister not agree that, while listings are up, the monthly cost of purchasing a home has risen sharply; second, that listings have risen because of the mortgage uncertainty much more than this tax; and third, would he not agree that all signs now point to a sharp drop in the construction starts because of the situation created by this government and the federal Liberals?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"The hon. member is completely confused as usual."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"And the federal Tories."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"I noticed that his leader, in a speech in Mississauga last week, quoted the hon. member for Ottawa Centre as saying that he had elicited some kind of an admission from the minister that 10 per cent of the HOME lots were going to those with incomes under $14,500.",
"Interjection by an hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Yes, and he quoted the member for Ottawa East (Mr. Roy)."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"I said that in Mississauga. I quoted the member for Ottawa Centre. I always quote him."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"That would be a fundamental error."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"That’s right. I think I should set the record straight, because there is a great deal of confusion and it’s mostly over there. One hundred per cent of the HOME lots in the Province of Ontario, not 10 per cent, are going to people earning under $14,500, and the constant repetition is not going to give it any credibility whatsoever."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for York Centre."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"Would the minister indicate how many building sites in excess of the anticipated demand in the market this year the province will be providing, or assuring us will be provided?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, on Monday, May 27, I will be making a comprehensive statement of all of the programmes which my ministry is putting into place, and the hon. member will have an opportunity to examine the figures in their proper context."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"By way of supplementary, does the minister consider $14,500 a year to be serving the low-income earners of Ontario?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the hon. member in his speech in Mississauga pointed out that those under $14,500 represent 60 per cent of the people in Ontario, and certainly we are seeking to serve that income group."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Tell that to the people earning $3 an hour."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for High Park."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Does the minister believe it is beneficial that the result of this bill is to have brought the housing market to a standstill?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"I didn’t say the housing market had come to a standstill. That’s the hon. member’s statement."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Ask anybody in the real estate field."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"What has happened is that it has been a combination of circumstances, included in which is the land speculation tax. High mortgages have had their effect. And obviously anything which brings the prices down cannot be disagreed with by my hon. friend."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"A supplementary: How can the minister, in answering the first question, immediately point out, in effect, that there is an election campaign going on and those statements are adding confusion to the market, when he knows full well that the statute which we are now debating in the Legislature is causing the very confusion he is talking about?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. A. Grossman (Provincial Secretary for Resources Development)",
"text": [
"Question, question!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Question!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Surely that sort of a political intrusion is below the minister’s responsibility?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the tax has caused absolutely no confusion whatsoever.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"It has disrupted the whole market."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"All his back-benchers are bamboozled by it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"They won’t complain back there.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"If I may continue, Mr. Speaker --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"The Premier is confused."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"That bill is a disaster."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order please.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Does this minister know that the housing starts this year are now 10,500 behind last year?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"We’ve reached --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Perhaps the hon. minister might make his response."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the CMHC figures indicate housing starts in Ontario are up by three per cent."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"No, that is a lie."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"They have reached a record high of 286,000 this year --",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order. Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"On a point of order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"I would like to point out to the Leader of the Opposition there is no confusion as far as the sale of houses is concerned. The tax has brought houses on to the market which would not otherwise have appeared.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"It certainly has had a lowering effect on prices and from the point of view of my ministry nothing could be more welcome than the land speculation tax.",
"Interjections by an hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"By way of supplementary, has the minister seen the most recent CMHC figures for April which indicate that the housing start projection for 1974 is now 10,000 units behind the total? Those projections, once they reach April, are accurate. That puts us 10 per cent behind the production in Ontario last year. The minister’s speculative land tax is a catastrophe in terms of what it has done to the housing market.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the latest figures I have seen from CMHC, which arrived on my desk yesterday morning, indicate that housing starts on a projected basis are at 286,000 in Canada which is an all-time record; and Ontario is maintaining, its pace in relationship to other provinces.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"No, that is wrong."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The Leader of the Opposition?",
"The member for Scarborough West."
]
}
] |
May 24, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-24/hansard
|
GASOLINE PRICES
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"A question, Mr. Speaker, of the Premier. Now that the major oil companies have completed their various increases, Gulf being the last, I guess a day or two ago -- Imperial 9.2 cents, Shell 8.8 cents, Gulf 8.4 cents -- clearly indicating there was some flexibility within the oil companies, will he not now, as Premier, intervene and at the very least ask that the prices be rolled back to the level which he agreed upon, which is apparently within the carrying capacity of some of the oil companies?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I think it would be erroneous to say this was the price which was agreed upon. What was agreed upon in Ottawa, for the fifth or sixth time, was that the provinces would not object to the decision by the Prime Minister of Canada, that if there were not an agreement he would legislate the figure of $6.50 a barrel.",
"It is not our intention at this moment to roll back prices as they relate to gasoline. The government is concerned. It represents in our rough calculations probably, on average, one per cent or perhaps 0.8 per cent, depending on which figure one uses, higher than the estimates we used at the time of the discussions in Ottawa.",
"I want to make it very clear that there was no discussion at that time as to any increase which might be set by the retailers. This has also given us concern because there is some indication that the increase of, say, 10 or 11 cents, which varies all over the province, relates to the retailers, many of them independent, who have made this decision on their own. I find it interesting that the variation does go from about 8.4 cents to 9.2 cents but at this time, Mr. Speaker, we are not suggesting that there be a roll back."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Copping out again."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"A supplementary: Is the Premier aware that 8/10ths represents $36 million to the consumers of Ontario and that the price increases, as they are registered for gasoline and heating oil, in Toronto will add an average family cost of close to $200 a year; and in Sudbury, as an example of a northern community, some $250 or $254 a year? Since that drastically exceeds the compensation which the Treasurer attempted to provide within his budget, does the Premier not think, now that prices have levelled out and he knows where he stands, that it is time to intervene?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, as I recall the Treasurer’s budget, it included measures to offset the increase in the price of fuel oil, particularly for those income families at the lower end of the income scale. I think it is fair to state -- and the figures are not exact because the fuel oil season, fortunately, doesn’t start until next October or November, say -- our estimates still would indicate that the amount provided in the budget will more than offset the increase in fuel oil prices for a lot of families. There was nothing in the budget to offset the increase in gasoline prices. That was never intended."
]
}
] |
May 24, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-05-24/hansard
|
Subsets and Splits
No community queries yet
The top public SQL queries from the community will appear here once available.