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HOUSING ACTION PROGRAMME POLICY
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"I would like to ask the member for Peel North if he can explain or elaborate upon the comments of David Strachan, the Peel regional co-ordinator of the housing action programme, that the programme will be called off in the Mississauga area if the city council insists on providing such frills as parks and libraries for the new communities designed under the housing action programme? Is it the Premier’s intention that the housing action policy in his own community and elsewhere, in fact, brings forward communities without libraries and parks, which surely in this day and age should not be designated as frills?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"I think that question would be more properly addressed to the Minister of Housing (Mr. Handleman)."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"I would like to put it to the Premier that the housing action programme was a new policy announcement that came indirectly from him and that surely in his private capacity as a member he must have some interest in this matter as well. The Minister of Housing isn’t here, although I must say he usually is. Surely there is some more useful answer the Premier can give."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, if the member for Brant wishes a long dissertation, I’d be delighted to give it to him."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"No thanks, no thanks."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Now that he has asked, I shall presume to do so. The housing action programme is being developed by the province in co-operation with the municipalities to cut some of the red tape and some of the existing procedures to expedite the registration of lots and thus the construction of houses. There are some aspects, Mr. Speaker --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"As parks and libraries in the community?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Do the members opposite want an answer or don’t they?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"No."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Go ahead."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"All right, then let me give an answer."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"What is the matter with the Premier?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Does he need a raise in pay to do his job?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"There are some aspects where the total deal with the municipalities may not be finalized. As to the question of what the contribution should be -- say for capital construction of schools where we have to solve this for the municipalities, and the question of other things such as parks and libraries, which will be part of the total development over a period of time -- it may be that in some municipalities we won’t be able to settle them finally before other aspects of the programme can move ahead.",
"The House, Mr. Speaker, and the member for Downsview, who is a great expert in these fields, know full well of the total commitment of this government to a library service. We have debated this on many occasions. We shall continue to support the development of libraries, but at this precise moment our priority was to get registration of plans of subdivision so we can build houses. It is true that certain traditional routes to get these things done --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mrs. M. Campbell (St. George)",
"text": [
"Not in Sudbury."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"-- will be expedited, including discussions within the ministries of this government. Otherwise, we will continue to face a housing problem. I would say to the hon. member for Brant there is no question the people in Mississauga will have without doubt all the proper amenities that have been the situation as far as development is concerned in that municipality, which happen to be really rather excellent in any event."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"I would then like to ask the Premier a supplementary on two matters. It is clear then that the housing action programme is going to go forward with the inclusion of the standard community amenities, such as parks and libraries, and that the coordinator is surely exceeding any instruction or authority that would be given to him? Is that right?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"No, no it is not."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the programme will go ahead. It may be that the exact geographic determination of the library or the site, the question of allocation or five per cent dedication, may not be finalized in time to get plans of registration through. As far as having these facilities available, the housing action programme does not in any way inhibit this; it is a question of priority and the timing."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Does the leader of the NDP have a supplementary?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Yes, as I understand it there were some trade-offs, obviously, in early subdivision approval in getting houses on the market -- although nothing as yet has happened. But why is the Premier prepared to contemplate by way of trade-off something as distressing and as socially destructive as parkland recreational facilities and libraries, which is now being talked about in all of these municipalities, not just Mississauga?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, we are talking about geographic location, by and large, and the finalization of this may come after registration. I’m not saying whether it will or not; some of them will be able to go ahead, I’m sure, without. All I’m saying is that at this moment in order to get housing moving on a greater scale than at the moment, certain other policies will take a little longer to sort out. I’m relatively aware of the situation in Mississauga. Mississauga has developed a very excellent library service and our housing programme will not in any way limit it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, will you permit a further supplementary on this? Can the Premier also guarantee, since he is concerned with reducing the time lag in the application followed by the approval of subdivisions, that the Treasurer’s promise of a 60-day decision is going to be fulfilled, even though that announcement is now many months old and the applications are not returned to the municipalities in anything like 60 days?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I don’t recall exactly what the Treasurer said but we are saying here that for our internal purposes, as among or between the ministries who have some responsibility for official plan amendments and subdivision registrations, we will be cutting the time very substantially. Quite frankly, we will be doing some things which, if we had the normal length of time without the very real need for housing, we might take longer in sorting out; these will be done internally.",
"What I cannot guarantee the member for Brant, no one can, is the length of time and the degree of co-operation from the municipalities. I must say, Mr. Speaker, in the last very few days I have been quite encouraged by the response I have had from some of the municipal leaders in their desire to move ahead with these objectives as well."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The member for Yorkview."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. F. Young (Yorkview)",
"text": [
"I’d like to ask the Premier, in connection with the trade-offs he indicated that the parkland might have to wait as far as its location is concerned; does this mean the land will be designated as registered lots and the parkland will come in later after the registered lots are delineated? This might lead us back to the point where parkland might be swamp or side hill, this sort of thing, which used to obtain in some municipalities of this province."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"I don’t think there is any danger of that happening whatsoever. I would also say there are some areas -- I would think I could be relatively confident of this -- where the parkland dedication is already part of the proposed plan of subdivision. I’m not so sure about library sites because library sites usually go beyond a particular plan of subdivision. I really think we are discussing something which is not a problem and is relatively academic."
]
}
] |
April 30, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-30/hansard
|
EDUCATIONAL OPPORTUNITIES FOR PORTUGUESE, ITALIAN CHILDREN
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"A question of the Minister of Education, Mr. Speaker: Is he concerning himself with the complaints which have come from the Portuguese and the Italian communities of Metropolitan Toronto that an unwarrantedly large percentage of their children are being directed into something other than academic education? Has he undertaken some review of what their percentages are and does he intend to enter into this controversy in any way?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. T. L. Wells (Minister of Education)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, of course, this is a complaint which is very commonly put at gatherings which discuss this. What the validity of it is I am not sure; I have asked our people to give me another report. I know I have heard it mentioned before. Sometimes when one starts to look into it one finds that it isn’t quite as it is made out to be.",
"The opportunities in the Toronto system for children of Italian and Portuguese or, indeed, any extraction, I think are excellent. They have a lot of good programmes and I don’t think the children from these families are being forced into these programmes to the extent the newspapers sometimes picture it. Certainly I have asked our people to take a look at it again and we’ll discuss it with the board."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"A supplementary: Surely the old Robarts style of streaming is a thing of the past and these decisions are left with the young people, but would the minister not feel that under these circumstances the parents ought to have a better opportunity to indicate the educational future of the young people before they make a commitment that will lead them into something which will not, let’s say, give them an opportunity for language and other cultural types of education which particularly the parents want?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"Most certainly the young people and their parents are now very involved in picking their courses, but of course they --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"They must make the decision. It’s more than involvement."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"They have to make the decisions themselves, certainly. They make the decisions, along with the school.",
"But there is an interesting aspect to that story I read in the paper. It had to do with the request for languages, for Portuguese and Italian, I believe in grades 9 and 10 and in some cases in the senior grades of the school, which of course is now possible if there is a demand from the community for this. It seems to me the paper indicated, and I haven’t checked this out, that while the parents wanted this course the children, when asked if they wished the course, had not indicated any interest in it. This is one of the problems we find in this particular area. The aspirations and desires of the parents as opposed to those of their children in the school system are sometimes slightly different.",
"As the hon. member knows, for instance, insofar as languages are concerned, if the community wishes and the Toronto board wishes to institute those programmes, it can institute programmes in secondary schools in Portuguese and in Italian, programmes which will help preserve the cultural heritage and background of those racial groups."
]
}
] |
April 30, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-30/hansard
|
TEACHER CONDITIONS OF WORK
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"I have another question of the Minister of Education. Is he aware that the salary negotiations between the teachers and the Peel Board of Education have been suspended because the board refuses to recognize the right of the teachers to negotiate conditions of work? Since this very matter was brought before the Legislature in the York settlement, would the minister not feel it would be necessary that boards accept conditions of work as a negotiable item?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"I don’t think I can be any more explicit than I have been during debates in this Legislature and at other times. Indeed just last week in the city of Brantford, in talking to the secondary school teachers they asked me that question. I replied that I thought terms and conditions of employment should be negotiable. They noted this and said they would inform the Brant county board.",
"I have said it many times. I think it applies across the province, but there is no law that says this has to be done at this time.",
"Now I am not personally aware there has been a breakdown in the Peel county negotiations."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Supplementary: Since the matter is of such concern and will obviously come to a head with this round of negotiations, which are already broken off in Peel, would the minister not consider a letter to the school boards, formally signed by him, expressing that view, which is supported at least by the two opposition parties although I don’t believe it is thoroughly supported by the minister’s backers; then at least the minister’s view would be put before the boards?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"Oh I will think of some way, Mr. Speaker, to make sure the board is aware of my views; if they are not already aware of them, which I am pretty sure they are.",
"Interjection by an hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Scarborough West."
]
}
] |
April 30, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-30/hansard
|
HOUSING PROGRAMMES
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"To the Premier: Does the Premier recall that within January a commitment was made to provide locations and numbers for 35,000 additional serviced lots in Ontario? On April 9 last the Minister of Housing indicated he would have a statement on the Ontario housing action programme within two to three weeks. When are we going to get a considered statement of government policy in the production of homes?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, just as soon as possible."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Right. May I ask the Premier, is he perhaps concerned that the cost of homes in the Metropolitan Toronto area jumped by another $3,000 to over $54,000 on the average sale in the month of April, and that his administration is reaching new heights in the inflationary spiral in housing? Can the Premier not give us some more specific answer as soon as possible?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I recognize the cost of homes in Metro has gone up again."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Right. May I ask, by way of supplementary, is the Minister of Housing perhaps driven almost to distraction by the trade-offs he is now entering into with developers, with municipalities, none of which has led anywhere in concrete terms; and does the Premier ever expect to have a specific announcement to make to the House?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Housing has not been driven to distraction. Yes, we propose to have an announcement to make to the House.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"He will be. We will do it at some point. We will try. He hasn’t been here for two days. He is driven somewhere."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Members opposite will try and they will not succeed."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Maybe he went to Paris too."
]
}
] |
April 30, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-30/hansard
|
QUARRY OPERATIONS IN PARKS
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"May I ask the Minister of Natural Resources, has he informed his executive director of the division of mines that mining in provincial parks for gravel pit and quarry operations is perhaps undesirable, since his executive director has now indicated that when we run out of sand and stone, provincial parks may become a quarry operation?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Yes Mr. Speaker, I must say my executive director is very much aware of government policy and that there will never be any mining in provincial parks in the Province of Ontario. I believe he was only commenting on an aggregate study that is going to be released by this government in the very near future."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"And no logging?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"It indicates there is a severe shortage in southern Ontario. This report gives some indication we should be going in that direction, but I can assure members it is government policy that we will not."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"So that when the executive director of the mines branch said it was possible there may be no other recourse than to mine in the provincial parks -- “It’s a very explosive issue, we have got to find a new approach,” meaning the use of the parks -- the minister is quite clearly repudiating that?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Exactly."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Okay, may I ask by way of another --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The member for Grey-Bruce has a supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"I’m sorry."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. E. Sargent (Grey-Bruce)",
"text": [
"In regard to the pits and quarries in the Bruce, the small operators cannot afford a survey or fencing; is the minister going to put them out of business?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, under the Act, of course, they must comply with the regulations which stipulate they must provide us with rehabilitation of site plans. Of course, these are prepared by an engineer and there is no way we can circumvent that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"I told them to keep on going so the minister can charge me too."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The member for Scarborough West?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"We can do that, too."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"I bet he will."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The member for Sudbury East with a supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"Regarding pits and quarries, when does the government intend to make the Pits and Quarries Control Act applicable to northern Ontario?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, as early as possible."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"We have been told that for two years."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Scarborough West."
]
}
] |
April 30, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-30/hansard
|
LEMOINE POINT
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"May I ask the minister where do we stand on the negotiations for the acquisition of Lemoine Point as a provincial park?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I don’t have a report at the present time but I will get one for the member."
]
}
] |
April 30, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-30/hansard
|
CLOSING OF PELHAM SECONDARY SCHOOL
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Thank you. A question, if I may, of the Minister of Education: Since, as I understand it, the committee of concerned citizens involved in the Pelham school dispute proceeded on good faith from what they determined to be the minister’s suggestion to get a petition of some 2,434 signatures to seek a review of the situation from the Niagara South Board of Education jointly with the Lincoln Board of Education, does the minister not think that it might be legitimate to approach those boards for a review, perhaps not a reversal but at least for a review, given the extent of community concern?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I approached the Niagara South Board of Education and asked for a review of the matter, something which, I might say, didn’t particularly meet with the full favour of the Niagara South board. Both the Premier and I, after a meeting with the people toward the beginning of the year in Hamilton, agreed we would do what we could to have another hearing held or at least bring those people together with the Niagara South board. This we did.",
"I sat in on the meeting and both the concerned parents and the Niagara South board, I thought, in a very clear and informative way, presented their sidles and their stories. The decision of the Niagara South board, as I understand it, was still the same decision. The only glimmer of hope which appeared at that meeting for the Pelham people was the idea that perhaps the boundary between the Niagara South board and the Lincoln board could be shifted. If this were done, there would be a change in attendance areas and so forth and Pelham might then, as I understand it, become a viable school in the Lincoln county school system.",
"To this point in time neither the Niagara South board nor the Lincoln board has approached me with any proposal that the boundary be changed. Basically, if one believes in the local autonomy of those boards, it’s up to them to come to some determination and then come to us and ask that those changes be made. To this point in time, nobody has come to suggest we look at the boundary changes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"May I ask, by way of supplementary, since the petition followed the meeting the minister describes -- I concede it taking place, obviously -- and since the petition directed itself to the change of boundary involving the Lincoln board, doesn’t he think it’s legitimate enough, when a community is fighting so hard to save its school with its staff, that the minister might intervene not to direct the boards to do something but to request the boards that the boundary view be examined, given the possibility that it makes good sense in educational terms over the next few years?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Wells",
"text": [
"I would have assumed, Mr. Speaker, that is, in fact, what I did at the meeting I had with the boards at that time. The Lincoln board, naturally, wasn’t there.",
"I am meeting the Lincoln board here next Monday, I believe, and I wall probably discuss it with them at that time. But I am sure the Niagara South board certainly could not be under any other interpretation than I had suggested at the meeting that perhaps this is a solution; it obviously wasn’t picked up by the Niagara South board."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"No, no. I agree."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Does the hon. member for Scarborough West have further questions?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"No, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. Minister of the Environment has the answer to a question asked previously."
]
}
] |
April 30, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-30/hansard
|
ALLEGED SEEPAGE OF POLLUTANTS INTO DETROIT RIVER
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman (Minister of the Environment)",
"text": [
"Yesterday the hon. member for Sandwich-Riverside and subsequently the hon. member for Windsor-Walkerville asked me about the present status of the industrial waste disposal by Wyandotte Chemical Corp. on Fighting Island in the Detroit River. I have discussed this matter with my officials and have been advised there have been no recent complaints that they are aware of concerning seepage of waste to the Detroit River resulting from this operation. If the hon. members are aware of any complaints I will have them investigated immediately by regional staff.",
"Officials of my ministry maintain a continuing surveillance of this operation but, as the hon. members are aware. Fighting Island has been privately owned by Wyandotte Chemical Corp. for many years. Permission to lay the waste pipeline on the bed of the Detroit River between the international boundary and Fighting Island was granted by issuance of a licence of occupation in 1936 by the then Department of Lands and Forests.",
"Our staff will continue to maintain surveillance of this operation, and if in fact it is apparent that there is a deterioration of the facility, I will certainly review the terms and conditions of the licence of occupation with my colleague, the Minister of Natural Resources, under whose authority the licence was issued."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"A supplementary? Yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. F. A. Burr (Sandwich-Riverside)",
"text": [
"Could the minister indicate when the last inspection or monitoring was made of the island?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"I can’t give the hon. member the exact date. I have a lot of material here if the hon. member would like to have a look at it afterwards."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"The minister doesn’t know that?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Another supplementary?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman (Windsor-Walkerville)",
"text": [
"Is the minister not concerned that the licence of occupation is costing only some $276 a year? And should he not review the termination of the agreement so that American liquid wastes would not be dumped on a Canadian island in the middle of the Detroit River?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"Well, this is a privately owned island, as the hon. member is well aware, and this operation has been going on for some time. We are constantly monitoring it and we are working very closely at all times with our counterparts on the other side, and through the IJC, on any of these particular matters that come up."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"Is the minister going to separate them?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. Minister of Energy has the answer to a question asked previously."
]
}
] |
April 30, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-30/hansard
|
ROUTE OF PETROLEUM PIPELINE
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. D. McKeough (Minister of Energy)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, yesterday there were questions asked of the Premier about the intervention of the Province of Ontario before the National Energy Board, concerning the interprovincial pipeline. The intervention was filed today and I have copies if anyone wants them. I won’t table them, but I do have copies."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for St. George is next."
]
}
] |
April 30, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-30/hansard
|
CANADA ASSISTANCE PLAN
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mrs. Campbell",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, my question is of the Minister of Community and Social Services. Is he aware of the fact that in Nova Scotia that government has declared areas as areas of need for the provision of services, such as the HELP services in St. James Town, and to obviate the necessity of individual needs tests? Is the government prepared to adopt that policy for this province?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. R. Brunelle (Minister of Community and Social Services)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of the article to which the hon. member refers."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Is the minister aware who is in power there?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Brunelle",
"text": [
"With reference to the matter of the Canada Assistance Plan, there are some ongoing meetings with the federal government on this very important area of the needs test -- and there will be a meeting some time within the next week or two."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mrs. Campbell",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, a supplementary: If in fact on investigation of this matter the minister ascertains that the power is already available to this province, would he give consideration to endorsing this policy for the people of this province?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Brunelle",
"text": [
"Certainly, Mr. Speaker. We are always willing to get as much money as we can out of the plan."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Thunder Bay is next."
]
}
] |
April 30, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-30/hansard
|
COST DIFFERENTIAL BETWEEN SOUTHERN AND NORTHERN ONTARIO
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question of the Minister of Transportation and Communications. Does the minister recall his entering into a debate on April 24, 1972, in this House, on a private member’s resolution calling for a commission of inquiry, and saying specifically:",
"They are not going to come [that is, people from southern to northern Ontario] until they can come and live with the same cost, the same pricing and the same benefits that are being enjoyed by people in other parts of the province?",
"Does he recall also that he said:",
"There seems to be something desperately wrong when freight rates can be that far apart between communities similar distances apart within the one province?",
"And does he recall saying:",
"I think there is a need indeed for someone to look at what is wrong with the differences in freight rates and the differences in pricing?",
"If he still recalls saying those things, and if he was sincere at that time, what does he propose to do about it now that he is the Minister of Transportation and Communications?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Good question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"The minister could tell them he’s got a bad memory."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"Well, Mr. Speaker, I don’t recall the specific date of the comment --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Some hon. members",
"text": [
"Oh, oh."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Misquoted."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"He was misquoted."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"He said the whole thing."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"No, no. If all of the squirrels will keep quiet just a moment and let me finish --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The minister should tell them he’s not responsible for remarks in his previous incarnation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"I don’t recall the specific date, but it certainly sounds like comments that I would have made then and now. And what do I intend to do about it? Everything in my power to straighten it out."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"A supplementary? Yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"If that is the case, why doesn’t the minister just raise freight rates in northeastern Ontario?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, obviously the hon. member hasn’t taken the time, similar to his leader, to look at what was proposed in the announcement that was made in Timmins that he is referring to.",
"We recognized at that time that the programme that had been developed as an experiment was not working satisfactorily. We have changed that experiment and we have reduced the freight rates on a great number of articles, by as much as a 60 per cent reduction on commodities where there will be a direct saving to the consumer. The increases that were being proposed were those within the realm of control of the Province of Ontario in the Highway 11 corridor. The amounts have not been determined as yet and they are only being increased when it can be proven by the carriers that it is to their financial difficulty if they do not get these increases."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"The government’s corporate friends wouldn’t reduce prices.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order. Did I hear “supplementary”? The hon. member for Rainy River."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Why doesn’t the government put him back on the beat? They should put him back on the beat."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"Why doesn’t the government do the same thing with gasoline prices as it is doing with those freight rates?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. D. M. Deacon (York Centre)",
"text": [
"Good question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"Anyway, will the minister recommend to his colleagues that to equalize the cost of living in northern Ontario vis-à-vis southern Ontario, there be some arrangement made in the provincial income tax to give the people in northern Ontario a tax credit, if you will, Mr. Speaker, to equalize the cost of living in the two parts of the province?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"Very good idea."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the lack of communication that was exhibited between the Liberals of Ontario and the Liberals of Canada is evidenced again here. The hon. member should ask his brother about income tax."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"I take it that means the government won’t do anything?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"As usual."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"That is a washout"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"These relatives are a real embarrassment."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please. The hon. member for Grey-Bruce has a supplementary? Did the hon. member for Sudbury say “supplementary”?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"Supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Well, then, I will call him in his turn. The hon. member for Grey-Bruce."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"I was talking to my advisers here. Was the minister talking about the freight rates on trucking?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. A. Grossman (Provincial Secretary for Resources Development)",
"text": [
"What did the member for York-Forest Hill (Mr. Givens) tell him?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"What is the minister doing about the meeting with the Highway Transportation Board to set up freight rates controlled by the people, not by the trucking companies? When is he going to be on to that one?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have already had several meetings on that very matter. I will be very happy to report to the hon. member and the other members of this House when that matter has been discussed in more detail."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"Supplementary?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"There have been five supplementaries which are sufficient."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"Supplementary: When did the minister have the meeting?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Hamilton Mountain."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"The minister knows he is bluffing."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please. The hon. member for Hamilton Mountain."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. D. R. Timbrell (Minister without Portfolio)",
"text": [
"If it is like the other advice members opposite have been getting, it is probably wrong again."
]
}
] |
April 30, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-30/hansard
|
HAMILTON BAY PROPERTY
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. R. Smith (Hamilton Mountain)",
"text": [
"I have a question of the Minister of Natural Resources: Will the minister provide for public meetings or hearings in the Hamilton-Wentworth region during his study of the outdoor recreational facilities in connection with the Allarco and Lax Brothers property so that interested recreational, conservation and other community organizations and individuals may make presentations?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Yes, Mr. Speaker, I certainly would entertain that proposal. As you know, we are undertaking a very intensive study of the Hamilton area to assess the recreational potential and the requirements for recreational land in that particular city dealing with those two main pieces of property. The study team will be going in there very, very shortly. Hopefully, the study will be completed in about three months and we will invite public participation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"The member should have been here last Friday, when I asked about it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Ottawa East is next. Supplementary? Then the hon. member for Hamilton East."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. Gisborn (Hamilton East)",
"text": [
"When he undertakes the study in Hamilton, raised by the hon. member for Hamilton Mountain, would the minister investigate the legality of the sale of the Lax property from the harbour commission to the Lax Brothers at the time it took place and up to the options that are now held on the property? Would he undertake to investigate with the federal government the legality of the acquiring of that property by Lax Brothers?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I don’t think this would be a responsibility of the study team, but certainly I’ll take the member’s suggestion under consideration and have a look at it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Well, a supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Wentworth has a supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Surely, the determination of the ownership and the propriety of the legality of the ownership is, in fact, something that has to be taken into consideration by the study team in order to determine the fair market value in the event that the government intends to purchase it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the study team will be looking at the recreational possibilities and the need for recreational land in that particular area. We’re not going into detail as to the cost of land and who it belongs to and the various aspects. That will be the next step."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Ottawa East."
]
}
] |
April 30, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-30/hansard
|
BOOKMAKING AND DRUG TRAFFICKING IN INDUSTRIAL PLANTS
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, that was a wise decision. Mr. Speaker, I have a question --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"Because he’s French, that’s why."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Yes, that’s right. The minority group.",
"Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Solicitor General."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"That is not a question of the Speaker’s wisdom."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"I wonder if the Solicitor General might advise, first of all, whether he’s aware; secondly, if he plans to investigate the fact that there is bookmaking going on in large industries in southern Ontario and it has become rampant; thirdly, whether he is aware of the fact that many workers are becoming victimized to the extent of $1,000 a year? These in-plant bookies apparently extend credit to their victims until they get in too deep and then the victims must steal or deprive their families to pay up. Is he aware of this?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. G. A. Kerr (Solicitor General)",
"text": [
"Yes, Mr. Speaker, I am aware of this in some of the larger plants. I realize there are plants in Ontario where there is some bookmaking activity. The plant foreman, the plant superintendent, those people in charge of the plant do their utmost, of course, to stop this practice. The local police and the provincial police are aware that it goes on and every effort is made to stop it. We think we are obtaining some success in minimizing this activity."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"If I might ask a supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Would the minister advise whether he is aware, as well, of trafficking in drugs going on in some of these plants; secondly, whether he might advise the House whether, in fact, as suspected by many of these people, that it’s organized crime that is backing some of these in-plant bookies?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"The minister is not aware of this."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I’m not aware that there is trafficking of drugs in these plants. I am not aware that there is organized trafficking of drugs."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Is the minister going to look into it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"I would assume that drugs are being used by some of the employees in the plants, but I’m not aware of any trafficking or organized trafficking going on. I’m sorry, I don’t recall the last part of the member’s question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"Organized crime."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Organized crime."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Syndicated crime."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"I could answer the question by saying that organized crime is involved in bookmaking and drug trafficking."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"A supplementary, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Sudbury is next."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. Shulman (High Park)",
"text": [
"A supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I think that there are just a few moments left and one or two supplementaries are sufficient. The hon. member for Sudbury."
]
}
] |
April 30, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-30/hansard
|
OTDC POSITION FILLED BY US CITIZEN
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. C. Germa (Sudbury)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Transportation and Communications. Is it true that an American citizen from the US Department of Transportation is being appointed vice-president of the Ontario Transportation Development Corp. as research and development director?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"The minister never heard of it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"An American citizen? Would the member repeat the question please? I think I have the answer, but I want to make sure of the question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Germa",
"text": [
"Is it true, Mr. Minister, that an American citizen from the US Department of Transportation is being appointed vice-president in charge of research and development of the Ontario Transportation Development Corp.?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, it is true that an American citizen is being appointed at the present time. Whether he’s from that particular department, I don’t know."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Germa",
"text": [
"A supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Could I ask the minister what kind of bait he had to put out in the way of salary and fringe benefits in order to entice this person here?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I wasn’t out doing any fishing in that particular case. That would be a matter that would have been handled by the Ontario Development Corp., and not by the minister."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, can the minister advise us as to what particular or peculiar qualifications this individual may have; and as to what Canadians, or others, applied for this position?",
"Interjection by an hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Haggerty",
"text": [
"If the application is available."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"I cannot at this moment. I can bring the information for the member. I do not know, if it’s the particular position I am thinking of, that a considerable amount of expertise which would not have been available elsewhere was available from this particular gentleman."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"The minister needs all the help he can get."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Sarnia. The supplementaries have been sufficient with just a few moments remaining."
]
}
] |
April 30, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-30/hansard
|
ECOLOGICAL IMPACT OF NUCLEAR POWER FACILITIES
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I have a question I’d like to direct to the Provincial Secretary for Resources Development. Could he advise what studies were undertaken, as a result of his policy direction, by the Ministry of the Environment into the ecological impact of the development of the nuclear power facilities on Lake Huron; and, if none, why not?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"I can’t advise the hon. member because insofar as I know, certainly for the period of time I’ve been there, it has not come to my attention. If there has been such a study made or ordered --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"What has come to his attention?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"-- I’d be glad to advise the member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"Am I correct in my assumption from the minister’s response that it has been of no concern to him or his predecessor, as the person responsible for the development of policy in the resources development field and the protection of the environment in the Province of Ontario, that no studies of any kind were done by the Ministry of the Environment either in connection with the development of the corridors or, more importantly, the impact on the Great Lakes of the development of the facilities themselves?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"I would say, Mr. Speaker, the answer to that is the member has no reason to come to that conclusion."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"As one last final supplementary --",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"-- do I understand that we have his undertaking that there were such studies and he will bring them to our attention?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"What is he talking about?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, that’s not what I said."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Well, say something.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"I didn’t say there were such studies. I said I am not familiar as to whether or not there were such studies and I am not going to give --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"He hasn’t done anything at all. That is what the secretariats are all about."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"And I am not going to give --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"That is a typical example of the secretariats. They do nothing. They do nothing."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"-- the member a glib answer to it. There are many reports which we are studying at the present time.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"He doesn’t even know anything about the administration study."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"That’s true."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"There are no ecological studies at all in connection with the whole policy, the whole development of energy. No studies at all; no environmental studies."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"We are catching up on a backlog of --",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"He doesn’t know."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order. Order.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Nickel Belt is next.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"The minister can sit down. He’s not going to answer anyway."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"I’ll answer it in a truthful manner and that’s what I’ve done."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"He doesn’t know."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"He doesn’t know; that is the answer."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"That’s what I’ve done. There were a lot of studies which went on before my taking over this position."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"That policy business is a charade."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Is the minister reading them?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"I’m reading them; we are studying them and we are catching up on some of those things with which I am not familiar. As soon as I have the answer to the member’s question, I’ll give it to him."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"Is he going to do some studies after the plants are built? Is that it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Nickel Belt."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"The whole secretariats are a charade and the government knows it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. F. Laughren (Nickel Belt)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, a question of the Minister of Transportation and Communications.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook",
"text": [
"The minister is a Barry Goldwater. He does nothing on --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"In view of the fact that the minister indicated in Sudbury at the weekend that he was --",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please. Perhaps the hon. member would start again; I couldn’t hear a word he said."
]
}
] |
April 30, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-30/hansard
|
FOUR-LANE HIGHWAYS IN NORTHERN ONTARIO
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"To the Minister of Transportation and Communications, Mr. Speaker: In view of the fact that the minister indicated in Sudbury on the weekend that he was planning four-lane highways across northern Ontario, would he please be more specific and indicate what kind of time-frame he was thinking about? Further, does he intend to speed up the present rate which consists of five years of feasibility studies and 10 miles of highway, then another five years of feasibility studies and another 10 miles of highway?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"What was he doing in Sudbury on the weekend?",
"Interjection by an hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I’ll answer the question of the member for Ottawa East first. I was in Sudbury on the weekend standing at the airport watching --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Out of order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The member for Ottawa East did not ask a question. The member for Nickel Belt asked a question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"-- the aircraft arrive, that’s what I was doing."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)",
"text": [
"Ottawa jets.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"-- with the Prime Minister and five cabinet ministers to attend a political meeting."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"It was our money.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"Ottawa jets."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I would hope --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Has the minister cashed those cheques of his yet?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"They have learned in a good league."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"He was at the Royal York at 2 o’clock this morning; I will vouch for that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The time for oral questions has expired.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The time for oral questions has expired."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, on a point of order first."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"All right, I’ll listen to it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"On a point of order before one of the ministers leaves --",
"Interjection by an hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Pardon? I am sorry; are we still on question period? I am sorry.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The time for oral questions has expired."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"On a point of order, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"All right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"I particularly watched the time when the lengthy ministerial statements concluded and I definitely saw the time was 2:17; we have 45 minutes for question period which would bring it to 3:02."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I must say to the hon. member that ministerial statements have nothing whatsoever to do with the question period. The time for oral questions has expired according to my time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"That’s right. My point of order is that I can tell the time and the ministerial statements were completed at 2:17.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"If the hon. member for Thunder Bay is going to be so picayune, I will extend the question period for two minutes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"But not for a Liberal."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The last question was by a member of the New Democratic Party. The hon. member for Downsview.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Downsview."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"Point of order, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"What a great spot."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Downsview."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"Point of order, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Order, order; point of order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, may I address a question to the Minister of Labour?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order! Point of order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Transportation and Communications had started to answer my question when you declared the question period was now ended. It was extended so that he could finish answering my question. He hasn’t answered it yet, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"He talked about aircraft in Sudbury rather than four-lane highways in the north. Answer the question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"What is the ministry going to do about four-lane hghways?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"This is not to facilitate the hon. member for Downsview; answer the question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"There are 30 seconds left."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"This is a sham and a fraud."
]
}
] |
April 30, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-30/hansard
|
DISPUTE OF INTERNS AND RESIDENTS
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, a question of the Minister of Labour: Has the Minister of Labour been asked to intervene, or has it been suggested he take a look at the situation involving interns and residents who are now threatening a strike in Hamilton hospitals, Toronto hospitals and in other places? Has he consulted with the Minister of Health, who promised to look into this matter when I questioned him on April 22 last?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, this matter has already been raised here today. However, I should like to tell the hon. member --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"It hasn’t been raised at all."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"It was out of order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon",
"text": [
"Yes; the member from Hamilton referred to it. Of course for one thing, these people do not belong to any union; as the member knows they are not unionized.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon",
"text": [
"In any event, any assistance we can give in this matter we are always glad to do so."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Is the minister not familiar with the letter written by the Minister of Health suggesting that the Labour ministry do get into the picture?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The time for oral questions has expired."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, if I may, because I would feel remiss if I didn’t; and I suppose it follows logically from this discussion of a potential strike in Hamilton. As one who was fairly close in the last couple of days to the negotiations that took place in Toronto, I want to congratulate the Minister of Health for his involvement in this dispute and what he did in terms of the settlement. I think that should be known in the House as much as the alleged involvement of the Ministry of Labour."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Petitions.",
"Presenting reports.",
"Mr. Taylor of the standing administration of justice committee reported the following resolution:",
"Resolved: That supply in the following amounts and to defray the expenses of the Ministry of the Attorney General be granted to Her Majesty for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1975:",
"Ministry of Attorney General",
"Law Officer of the Crown ... $ 1,600,000",
"Administrative Services ... 17,965,000",
"Guardian and Trustee Services ... 3,016,500",
"Crown Legal Services ... 8,265,000",
"Legislative Counsel Services ... 386,500",
"Courts Administration ... 40,931,000",
"Administrative Tribunals ... 4,208,500"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Motions.",
"Introduction of bills."
]
}
] |
April 30, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-30/hansard
|
CROWN EMPLOYEES COLLECTIVE BARGAINING ACT
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, this bill would remove from the present Act certain exclusive functions of the employer; and would also recognize the right of civil servants in the Province of Ontario to free and collective bargaining, including the right to strike."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. Cassidy (Ottawa Centre)",
"text": [
"Good bill."
]
}
] |
April 30, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-30/hansard
|
LANDLORD AND TENANT ACT
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mrs. Campbell",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the amendment provides for mandatory landlord and tenant review boards in municipalities with populations of over 50,000 persons. These boards would have the power to determine the amount of rents and to order tenants removed from premises for non-payment of rent or wilful damage to premises."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"There has been a much better bill on the order paper for a year, Mr. Speaker, dealing with the same thing."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"The hon. member can withdraw his bill now."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Orders of the day."
]
}
] |
April 30, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-30/hansard
|
REGIONAL MUNICIPALITY OF HALDIMAND-NORFOLK ACT
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. A. Renwick (Riverdale)",
"text": [
"Another full-scale debate."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Kitchener"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, my comments on this bill will be brief. The only matter of principle in it allows the continuation of the matters that were before the former land division committees and committees of adjustment in the regional area. I believe we have now amended nearly all of the Acts with reject to that and perhaps the minister can advise if this is the last Act to be amended.",
"It would appear to me it would be worthwhile for us to know that all of these continuing applications will therefore be regularized in the various regional municipalities so that there will be no question in the future as to any difficulties which might arise. We will of course support the amendments."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. Cassidy (Ottawa Centre)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I just want to comment briefly on the bill. I will not raise great issues of principle about Haldimand-Norfolk on this particular bill; I merely comment that I think at some point in this Legislature we should have a statement by the ministry about the way in which the planning of the province is going forward for Haldimand-Norfolk in view of the fact that so much of the responsibility is still a provincial responsibility and has not been delegated to the local level.",
"This particular bill, which dissolves the local committees of adjustment, may be felt more forcefully by many people there than some of the activities the province is engaged in which are of much more longstanding importance.",
"I would only point out finally that it amuses me, to say the least, that the government cannot even bring in this bill before April 1, since the bill directs that the new regional government was to create its land division committee by April 1 under a bill that didn’t receive first reading until April 4. We will support the bill."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Any further comments on Bill 243 before the minister responds?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. D. R. Irvine (Minister without Portfolio)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, in answer to the member for Kitchener, it is my understanding this will be the last regional bill we’ll have to enact with regard to the land division committees being able to handle the applications that weren’t dealt with before the implementation of regional municipalities.",
"As far as the planning and development of the region is concerned, that is a matter which I believe the member for Ottawa Centre should know shouldn’t be discussed in this particular bill, but will be discussed at greater length at another time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Would the minister permit one question Mr. Speaker? When is that time? Does the minister intend to make a statement about planning in Haldimand-Norfolk in the near future?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Irvine",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I can’t advise the member at this particular time as to a specific date, but what I will do is inform the Minister of Economics and Intergovernmental Affairs (Mr. White) as to the member’s concern and hopefully he will be in touch with him in the near future.",
"Motion agreed to; second reading of the bill."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Shall the bill be ordered for third reading?",
"Agreed."
]
}
] |
April 30, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-30/hansard
|
THIRD READING
|
[
{
"speaker": "Clerk of the House",
"text": [
"The sixth order; resuming the debate on the motion for second reading of Bill 22, the Health Disciplines Act, 1974."
]
}
] |
April 30, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-30/hansard
|
HEALTH DISCIPLINES ACT, 1974 (CONTINUED)
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. Shulman (High Park)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I wanted to speak only on one aspect of this bill. Everything has been covered very well by my colleague, the member for Parkdale (Mr. Dukszta). However, there is some additional material that has been made available to me since he spoke and I would like to take this opportunity of adding a few comments to his remarks.",
"I want to refer specifically to the matter involving the optometrists and the controversy between themselves and the ophthalmologists. I hope I can have the minister’s attention just for a few moments.",
"Interjection by an hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"When the minister is through with what he is doing -- we’ve lots of time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. F. S. Miller (Minister of Health)",
"text": [
"I am sorry, I was reading the paper."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Okay. There has been considerable discussion as to whether optometrists should be given the right to use drugs. The minister hasn’t made himself quite clear. I understood his most recent position was they were to be allowed to use drugs for tonometry only. Is that where the minister stands?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"Yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Well I want to speak on that, because there has been considerable confusion on this subject and some discussion of what is going on in England -- and I now have the facts of what is going on in England.",
"I am sure the minister is not aware that the optometrists this past week sent out a new fee schedule. If he is aware of it, he should stomp on their toes very quickly -- because they are presuming that he is going to give them a lot of things which I don’t believe he intends to give them.",
"In this fee schedule they have included the following items: Gonioscopy, which involves the uses of topical anaesthetic; electroretinography, which uses topical anaesthetic and dilating drops; and fungus photography, which uses dilating drops.",
"Now none of those things are included under tonometry. Either they know something the minister doesn’t or else they are presuming they are able to put further pressure upon him.",
"I trust that those three items, which have nothing to do with tonometry, will produce some comment from the minister.",
"To come to tonometry itself, I think the minister has made an error. In all respects, Mr. Speaker, I would like him to reconsider this.",
"Tonometry -- for the benefit of the one or two members in the House who are not medical men -- is a simple screen mechanism for determining whether people are suffering or are developing a very serious eye condition called glaucoma. I don’t think anyone will dispute that optometrists should be allowed the privilege of doing this screening procedure as a public health measure.",
"However, what has been overlooked -- and the reason it was overlooked is because it became available after this whole controversy began -- is that there is a machine which involves no drugs, no dangers and which is available both to optometrists and to ophthalmologists. It is a machine which does the tonometry just by blowing a little blast of air at the eye, with no risks and no drugs involved.",
"Now I respectfully suggest to the minister that with that machine available, why take the added risks? And if there is any question of the risks, I have some dozen of cases here in front of me of where catastrophes did occur in the use of drugs in the eye.",
"The Ontario Medical Association did a survey of some dozen different physicians here in the city asking them for examples. There was one patient at the Branson Hospital and one drop of local anaesthetic went into the eye. The patient went into deep shock. Fortunately, the patient was already on the table and there were physicians available to save the person’s life. It is an extremely dangerous procedure to put drugs in patient’s eyes unless you have a team there that are competent to handle the complications that may arise.",
"What the minister is doing is playing the numbers game. That numbers game is going to rebound. Whether it is one person in 100 or one person in 500 or one person in 1,000, does he really want, in a screening procedure, to knock off that odd person? Is he going to be happy when he gets the first death in an optometrist’s office; or the sixth or the tenth?",
"There has been some comment made about what is going on in England. The suggestion was made that optometrists were allowed to use drugs in England. I have the facts here.",
"There are no optometrists as such in England. There are sight-testing opticians, who are the equivalent to what an optometrist is here, and they are not allowed to use drugs in commercial practice. They are allowed to use drugs only in hospitals where the optician is part of the team; in other words where there is medical help available to handle the problem.",
"That is really what the minister should do here. No one questions the situation in which there is medical help available. If there is a team set up or a clinic set up or a hospital set up, by all means let the optometrist or the optician or the technician put the drops in the eye. But if that optician or that optometrist is alone, where there is no help available, you are going to have death, Mr. Speaker.",
"I think the government is playing a numbers game for which there is no need, and is going to lose a few lives for which there is no need; because it just isn’t required. If they want to do the screening procedures, let them do it with the air puff tonometer.",
"And for goodness sake, let the minister talk to them about this fee schedule of theirs in which they presume they have powers -- perhaps they have, and we will find out -- in which they presume they are going to be able to do things that the minister says they are not to do.",
"I am not going to press this any further, I think it has all been discussed in some detail by other members of the House. I am just inviting the minister to reconsider the matter. I think he has made an error but it is not too late to repent. Thank you, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Does any other hon. members wish to speak to this bill?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. V. M. Singer (Downsview)",
"text": [
"Yes, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Downsview."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I want to address myself particularly to the whole question of disciplinary procedures.",
"I hope I could have the Minister of Health with me. Perhaps I will pause until he is free.",
"I want to direct myself particularly to the disciplinary provisions that are set out in this Act, and which seem to feature a large part of the introduction of this bill. They are really overblown in the advance statements of the minister, and when read carefully are no more meaningful than the procedures that presently exist in the Province of Ontario. What they talked about when they brought the bill in was the establishment of a Health Discipline Board. That is dealt with in section 6 of the bill where the board is established.",
"With the makeup of the board perhaps there can be some technical arguments. The powers given to the board in section 7 are that they are to conduct hearings and to perform duties that are assigned under this or any other Act and make an annual report.",
"Up until that point it really sounds very fascinating, Mr. Speaker, until you get down to some of the more meaningful parts of section 8 of the statute and you find that when the board has made a review it makes a report about each decision. I wonder if it has occurred to the minister that it is a part of natural justice that reasons be given for decisions; and since there is no requirement in the statute that reasons be given, the odds are probably 99 per cent in favour and one per cent against a situation in which any decisions being brought down will be -- I have just had a note, Mr. Speaker, and I am going to interrupt and ask you if you think there is a quorum; and particularly to note that while this important debate is going on there are two hon. members of the Conservative Party here, one minister and one hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order please. We will check and see if there is a quorum or not, first of all."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Clerk of the House",
"text": [
"There are 14 hon. members present, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"There is not a quorum then.",
"Mr. Speaker ordered that the bells be rung for four minutes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Clerk of the House",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, there is a quorum present."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Since there is a quorum, the member for Downsview may proceed."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As you perhaps know, sir, it’s not usually my wont to count noses in the House, but I think it is particularly degrading to the parliamentary process when a bill as important as this one can be before the House and it doesn’t behove any more than two government members to be present."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"When I spoke, there was only one."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"However, let me continue.",
"I was beginning to talk about the disciplinary proceedings as set forward in the Act and to tell the minister some of the things I think are wrong with them.",
"The first point I had dealt with was the question of a direction in the statute to this board to give reasons for the decisions they make. I was beginning to make the point, Mr. Speaker, that if the minister or his draftsmen or advisers were at all familiar with any of the matters dealt with by Mr. McRuer in his report to the Legislature, they would know his emphasis was on natural justice.",
"What is surprising to me, Mr. Speaker, with those reports before us and with so much legislation stemming from those reports, is that when we have an apparently all-embracing statute such as the Health Disciplines Act, no one apparently has paid any attention to the recommendations about natural justice as put forward by Mr. McRuer.",
"Then in section 8(2) there is no requirement that the complainant be present when the board holds a hearing. I would think he should have a right to be present. I don’t see that he is entitled to be represented by counsel, and I think that should be written in. There’s also the question of an appeal from a board that may be very arbitrary in its nature and in its approach, and there doesn’t appear to be any appeal procedure provided at all.",
"Also, there is the question of the record which this board can summon from the sub-boards in the various disciplines, and whether or not the complainant is entitled or should be entitled to have a look at that record. After all, Mr. Speaker, the complainant is the person who is being affected. And if the complainant is not going to be allowed to look at the record -- and believe me, if the statute doesn’t say the complainant is going to have access to the record, the complainant is not going to have it -- then what is the purpose of setting these things out and making such a big fuss about them?",
"Then I wonder what power the board is really given, because surely if there is some purpose in this there should be some ability granted to the board by statute to award damages or to order rectification, and there is certainly no mention of anything like this. I see the department solicitor is nodding at me. I am quarrelling with the very concept that the minister puts forward, because he is preserving the so-called right to the complainant to go before the courts of Ontario and to argue in the painful and difficult way against medical or dental or any other of the health disciplinary fields where negligence is alleged.",
"And this is wrong. This is wrong for a variety of reasons that I have enunciated and which many members of this House have enunciated over the years. The minister brings this forward with flags flying and banners flapping in the wind, saying this is something new and something different; and it’s more of the same old nonsense.",
"All the government has done is interpose another board that can hold meetings in camera; that doesn’t entitle a complainant to come before it; that doesn’t allow the complainant to go there with counsel; that doesn’t allow the complainant to have access to the record; and, in due course, if you’re lucky, you’ll get a letter saying: “We accept your complaint” or, “We reject it” -- period, end, and that’s it.",
"If you don’t like it then you can start all over again and go through the court procedure.",
"Well I have a private member’s bill on the order paper, Mr. Speaker, which sets up an alternative; and if the minister hasn’t already read it, I commend it to his immediate attention. Hopefully it will be debated soon. The one hour private members’ debate is a little frustrating in its content, because rarely does a minister come forward and take part in that debate or give us any idea of what his ministerial views are. Perhaps we will hear some of them later today or later during the concurrence of this report.",
"I say, Mr. Speaker, deliberately and with as much conviction as I can summon, that these sections 8, 9 and 10 and all the nonsense about setting up the board, is a meaningless bunch of paper designed to present an appearance of something that isn’t happening. All that really has been done is to set up another administrative board which apparently is going to salve somebody’s conscience but is not going to help complainants.",
"The board may review decisions made by the various complaints committees, and then Mr. Speaker, if you will turn with me to section 58, you’ll see what the complaint committee is given power to do:",
"The complaints committee shall consider and investigate complaints made by members of the public or members of the college regarding the conduct or actions of any member of the college, but no action shall be taken by the committee under subsection 2 unless ... a written complaint has been filed and that the committee has examined.",
"Again, the complaints committee, in which this board sits on review, does not have to hear the complaint. They have to have a piece of paper from the complainant and they will meet in camera.",
"The complainant again is not entitled to look at the records that come before this complaints committee. He is not entitled to be represented by counsel. He is not entitled to have reasons for the disposition of the complaint.",
"The committee in accordance with the information it receives [not after it’s had a hearing] may ... direct that the matter be referred in whole or in part to the discipline committee or the executive committee for the purposes of section 62.",
"Well if it is a matter of discipline or executive committee, perhaps that should be dealt with in a different way. But surely the complainant -- the most obvious complainant envisaged by this Act; the one we are talking about in most instances -- is the individual citizen who feels he has a grievance. If the individual citizen who feels that he has a grievance isn’t given the opportunity to appear; to know what the facts are from the documents, which he usually can’t get at; if he hasn’t the opportunity to be represented by counsel; what is the use of the procedure?",
"Looking at what the complaints committee may do, one has to go back again to what the board may do. The board may intervene where the complaints committee hasn’t done very much and ask the complaints committee if it’s not going to do something -- and the thing can get bounced backward and forward for what would appear to be an indefinite period before the complainant gets a decision from the complaints committee or the board.",
"But they’re being very good, Mr. Speaker. They are allowing a limitation period of two years, so that if the complainant has got nowhere by these secret meetings -- if in fact they do take place -- he has been unable to obtain the information, if he’s had the difficulty that many people have faced in trying to come to grips with the great array of legal talent and with the great medical reluctance to make documents and records available, he has the great privilege of trying to fight his way through the courts in connection with a matter of this sort.",
"I say very simply, Mr. Speaker, that these procedures, as set out in the Act, are quite useless. The creation of the board achieves no useful purpose. The minister seems content to say that he is solving the question by creating yet another administrative body, only this one he cloaks with anonymity. He gives them the power to sit in camera. He gives them the power to make decisions and review matters without telling anybody the basis on which they’re doing it. He gives them the power to exclude the very persons affected. And he says: “This is new and important; this is an advance procedure for dealing with medical complaints.”",
"I say, Mr. Speaker, that the longer we go on in this Legislature the more we have to wonder if we ever make any progress. I would ask the minister to take those particular sections back to the drawing board and establish a procedure whereby the rights of complainants, at least, are respected.",
"Take a look at McRuer. Take a look at what he says about natural justice. Take a look at what should be the rights of individuals -- the right to be defended by counsel, the right to get records, the right to have reasons for decisions, the appeal procedures and so forth -- and seriously investigate whether or not in fact he hasn’t moved a step backward instead of a step forward."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The member for Sudbury."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. C. Germa (Sudbury)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I would like to deal with part II of this Act, which has to do with dentistry and its implications in connection with the denturist squabble, which has permeated this province for the last several years.",
"We all know that past attempts at resolving this issue have really not succeeded in accomplishing anything more than confusing the total electorate, not to mention those people who have been making a living in the practice of manufacturing full denture plates.",
"I see that the Royal College of Dental Surgeons is left intact and that there is provision for very limited lay participation on the board of governors of the dental college. However, it does not relieve the public of this sort of incestuous body, which has been controlling the delivery of these services for many years.",
"The Act goes on to espouse the provision which was passed earlier in this House that would provide that certain dentists in certain communities would be encouraged to deliver false teeth at a price of $180. We know from past experience that this has not resolved the problem, and yet the government persists in rewriting something that is already redundant.",
"We’ve already had the experience of the past few months, and the horror stories that are coming out of this legislation are innumerable. I’m surprised that this brand-new minister would go ahead and include within this Act something that has already proven to be not workable.",
"Recently, even the Premier of this province (Mr. Davis) in a radio programme on April 28, making reference to the low-cost denture programme, said it has not worked effectively. He said that on a recent CHUM radio programme. If the Premier of the province himself condemns the low-cost denture programme I see no reason for it to be perpetuated in this new Health Disciplines Act.",
"I think as long as the delivery of dental services to the people of Ontario is left in the control of the Royal College of Dental Surgeons, this kind of thing is going to persist. I think these people have a vested interest in controlling the manufacture of false teeth and until such time as they are relieved of this control we are not going to go anywhere.",
"We know there have been private bills introduced, not only by me but by the leader of the Liberal Party too, and I can support either one of them. They would allow a denturist to deal directly with the public but, lo and behold, it states here that the Denture Therapists Act of 1972 shall persist. We know that the people who have qualified under the Denture Therapists Act are having difficulty in gaining employment. The whole problem of supplying ourselves with false teeth is not being resolved by the introduction of this bill and I would like the record to show that for this reason alone I have to vote against this bill."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The member for York Centre."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. D. M. Deacon (York Centre)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, there are two or three things which worry me about the major omissions in this bill. As my colleague from Downsview said, the discipline provisions were intended to protect the public and yet there are so many deficiencies which he brought up; I wanted to bring out one or two others which concern me, particularly with regard to the makeup of the discipline committee.",
"I would presume, although it doesn’t say so here, that the minister would set out conditions whereby these hearings are held in the evening and held in the location where the problem has arisen so the public involved doesn’t have to travel great distances or give up time during normal working hours to attend any of these hearings. This in itself causes a great deal of difficulty to those who want to get their case brought before the discipline committee, or want to bring a case before the committee to see if something can’t be done to correct something.",
"We also have such a shortage of public appointees, those appointed by the Lieutenant Governor in Council. Each is just one member of the panel of five or more and yet we have a quorum that one person must always be there. In the case of the optometrists, the public appointee is only one person out of five, I think, on the discipline committee. What if that person is ill? Does that mean the whole thing has to be put off? Should we not have provision for more representatives to be appointed to these discipline committees to be sure, in principle, that in all cases it is possible for those hearings to be held without delay and with more flexibility?",
"It seems to me there isn’t adequate representation or flexibility provided to ensure there is no need for delay because of the illness of one individual. In all cases the Act spells out that a quorum shall consist of three or five, whatever it might be, but it must have at least one member appointed by the Lieutenant Governor in Council. I would like to be sure that we do provide for flexibility and that these committees can hold hearings in other parts of the province, which will not be held up because one person, a member appointed by the Lieutenant Governor in Council, is unable to be present.",
"I would ask the minister to check into that and bring in amendments which would increase the number of representatives on the discipline committees to help forestall such an event."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The member for Riverdale."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. A. Renwick (Riverdale)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have four or five comments I want to make on the bill.",
"The major concern that I have about the bill is the evolution which has taken place in this health board that is established by the bill, during the period of time from its original conception in the report of the Committee on the Healing Arts and through the proposals with respect to the Health Disciplines Act, which were tabled about a year ago for study and observation by interested persons, and the result as it appears in the bill which is before us.",
"The transposition is significant. The powers which are set out in section 3 of the bill with respect to the duty of the minister and his responsibilities are taken almost word for word from the legislative proposals except that in the legislative proposals, which were tabled a year ago, the health board was charged with those duties and responsibilities. In particular, the former Provincial Secretary for Social Development (Mr. Welch), when he tabled the legislative proposals, refers to the unique decision which has been made with respect to the board, and I quote from his statement which he made at that time, which was on June 28, 1972:",
"Of particular interest is the establishment of a Health Disciplines Board. It is proposed that this board will be composed of no more than seven lay persons, not members of any of the health disciplines, and it will represent the public interest. It will be given substantial authority over all the health disciplines and will be responsible for ensuring that the health disciplines are effectively regulated and co-ordinated. The board will also act as an appeal board on registration matters. An applicant who has been refused registration may appeal this decision ... and the board is also being empowered to review complaints.",
"Well when this minister introduced Bill 22, which is being considered by us today, he had, of course, no particular comment to make on the substantive change which took place during the period from June, 1972, until April 2 of this year when he introduced this particular bill. He refers to the fact that the bill as presented by him is the result of public discussions or other discussions which took place over a period of many months with interested groups, including the public. He went on:",
"This Act, Mr. Speaker, ensures that the activities of health disciplines are effectively regulated and co-ordinated in the public interest. [But of course this time it is by the minister.] It also ensures that appropriate standards of practice are developed and maintained and that rights of individuals to services provided by health disciplines of their choice are safeguarded. [But again by the minister.] The legislation now before us embodies some changes from earlier proposals. All of these changes have resulted from information and advice gained through public discussion.",
"He then goes on to speak about the limited responsibilities then conferred upon the Health Disciplines Board.",
"Well, that is a substantial change in the conception of the governing body which was to be established with respect to the health disciplines, and I think that we need a very clear statement -- and not the very indirect statement made by the minister in introducing this bill -- as to why it is considered that those responsibilities which were to be imposed upon the health board have been now, word for word for practical purposes, taken by the minister and removed from the health board.",
"There is substantial emasculation of the health board.",
"I need only refer very briefly to the original conception of the Health Disciplines Board as set forth in the first volume of the Committee on the Healing Arts, where the various recommendations are related as to the function which was to be carried on by this particular board. There are some very detailed statements.",
"But the main overriding governing body was also to be provided by the board with respect to this co-ordination function, with respect to the interface relationships between the various health disciplines, with respect to the need to make certain that the public and the individual person seeking a service were adequately serviced by the health disciplines.",
"It seems to me that is a very fundamental change in the conception of the board’s function and has resulted in the substantial emasculation of what we had considered to be the purpose to be served by the board.",
"In our discussions in the caucus there was, I may say quite frankly, an endeavour to find the reasons behind the decision of the minister to make this change. It requires explanation. It cannot go unanswered on the second reading of the bill. It is one of the principal reasons why we in this caucus for other reasons which were detailed at great length by my colleague the member for Parkdale, are going to oppose the bill.",
"I suppose it can be said quite frankly that we consider, certainly I consider that until such time as such a body is given the responsibility for the co-ordination of the health disciplines in the provision of health services and the question of the basic policies are left with the minister as well as the responsibility overall for the administration of the Act; that until that is done we are not going to solve the basic problem we face in the field of the provision of a broad range of medical services and paramedical services, simply because of the entrenched position in a favoured place of the medical profession and of the dental profession.",
"As a lawyer, I have to give consideration always to what I would think or feel if a similar restructuring was made with respect to the legal profession. I think that while there hasn’t been the development, due to the extreme monopoly position given the Law Society of Upper Canada, there hasn’t been the development of the kind of paralegal services in the way in which they have developed in the field of the provision of health services, nevertheless I would think that one of these days the extreme monopoly position of the legal profession is going to have to be substantially watered down and a number of paralegal facilities provided in order to provide services which can efficiently be provided by other specialist groups to the public.",
"I would think that will only come about in the way in which the public interest will be served if, in fact, a similar board -- similar in conception to the kind of board as set out in the legislative proposals with respect to the Health Disciplines Act -- is established for the legal profession.",
"And in answering that question it seemed to me that the same considerations apply very much so far as my thinking is concerned, and shared to a considerable extent by my colleagues in the New Democratic Party caucus, that the health board as set out in the original proposals is by far the soundest method to deal with the basic problem which relates to the long-term predominant position and continuing dominant position of the medical profession and of the dental profession in the field of the provision of this broad range of service.",
"We are not going to be able, in the Province of Ontario -- and it’s trite to say so -- to provide the kind of range of medical services that is required by continuing the undue domination of that whole field of services by the two traditional professions. I have similarly stated my own particular view with respect to the domination of the provision of legal services in the Province of Ontario by the Law Society of Upper Canada.",
"It therefore seems to me that the minister, on the second reading of this bill and in answer to it, must explain in some substance and detail why it was necessary to transpose from the responsibilities of the health board to the minister the essential gut relationship that was to be established as set out in the legislative proposals. When he takes that away, he leaves a very emasculated health board. It is severely emasculated, because when he takes away the overall co-ordinating function as set out in section 3, now given to the minister, and leaves it only with the complaints function and the question of appeals for purposes of registration, then he has given the board very little power.",
"The board doesn’t have the kind of powers that it should get. I believe, even in the limited field of dealing with complaints and in the limited field of dealing with appeals from refusals to register, that the very limited functions which are given to the board indicate quite clearly that the minister wishes to continue the domination of the professions with respect to the answering of complaints.",
"The reason I say that is that the board, after reviewing or investigation of a complaint, may:",
"Confirm the decision, if any, made by the complaints committee;",
"Make such recommendations to the complaints committee as the board considers appropriate; or",
"Require the complaints committee to take such action or proceedings as the committee is authorized to undertake under the applicable part of the Act.",
"Anyone reading that from the strict point of view of a lawyer looking at the jurisdiction of the board with respect to the complaints committee, can see that that is a severely curtailed power.",
"The normal provision with respect to a board vested with appellate jurisdiction, such as the complaints committee with respect to complaints and with respect to registration, is that the board itself should have power to confirm, reverse, alter or vary and substitute its opinion for the opinion of the lower body. That is the normal and traditional appellate jurisdiction. When, in this Act, the minister curtails that appellate jurisdiction by setting out the three powers which I have quoted verbatim horn the Act with respect to complaints, then members can see very clearly even in the emasculated form as it appears in this Act, the board itself has a very severely limited jurisdiction.",
"Everyone knows that even the power to require the complaints committee to take certain actions or proceedings is limited to the kind of thing which it is authorized to undertake under the applicable part of the Act. That very phraseology does not provide for the decision with respect to the complaint to be made by anybody other than the basic professional body.",
"I want the minister to understand that he is retaining within the professions the ultimate question of the nature of the solution of the problem raised by the complaint. I am simply suggesting to the minister that this board, with respect to the limited jurisdiction about complaints and about registration, must be given the power to confirm, to reverse, to vary or amend, and to substitute its opinion for the opinion of the board with the lower jurisdiction. It would appear to me that at least in those fields, if an amendment such as that were made, then the board itself would have some kind of appellate jurisdiction. And I think it’s very essential that it have that kind of appellate jurisdiction.",
"The other aspect -- and I put it in by the way -- is that the procedure as set out here, subject to the flaws which were referred to by my colleague the member for Downsview and by the member for York Centre, is in fact an important procedure for serious complaints. It is much too elaborate and much too cumbersome with respect to a whole range of complaints which may develop, but which a particular citizen is not prepared to pursue through such an elaborate procedure.",
"It seems to me there should be some parallel, informal method of settling complaints by way of written submissions to the board if the parties to it agree, so that there is an informal and rapid and relatively less ponderous method of satisfying complaints of an important but relatively minor nature, as distinct from the whole range of serious complaints that may arise.",
"I think my remarks really relate to the complaints area rather than to the registration area insofar as that latter remark is concerned, because questions of appeals from registration decisions are, of course, always of immense importance to the person who is taking the course of proceeding by way of the appeal.",
"The third matter which concerns me greatly is that the minister explained that when he was introducing this particular bill he was only introducing at this time the particular legislation dealing with the five major health disciplines. Why that would be so, why he could not have introduced the omnibus legislation covering all of the various fields which are set out in an appendix to the statement originally made by the then Provincial Secretary for Social Development relating to the other fields which we are going to have to deal with at a later time, is, it would appear to me, a relatively specious argument because it certainly could have been done.",
"I took the opportunity when the bill was being considered to set out for my own convenience the correlative sections of the bill with respect to each of the professions. And of course the basic structure as accepted by the government for each of the disciplines -- that is the structure with respect to its governance, the governing body, the definitions, the qualifications and requirements for membership, the provisions with respect to the council of the governing body, the powers of the minister with respect to the particular health disciplines, the regulations, the bylaws, the licences to practise, the committees; all of those various headings have their common clause in each of the parts dealing with the particular health discipline.",
"For example, membership is dealt with, insofar as dentistry is concerned, in section 22; insofar as medicine is concerned in section 47; insofar as nursing is concerned in section 71; insofar as optometry is concerned in section 93; insofar as pharmacy is concerned in section 119.",
"I am quite certain that the form of the structure of the governance of each of those disciplines is going to be substantially repeated in the other disciplines as those parts come before the assembly. I simply say that for any overall view it seems to me to be ridiculous, without more adequate explanation, why we are given this bill after all this period of time in such a piecemeal form. I can’t understand why it can’t be done all at once and why it wasn’t done all at once.",
"The third area, is again related to this question of the domination of the traditional professions. And I say that in no denigrating sense, I simply say it in a sense that we must provide more flexibility and more interrelationship between the health disciplines in order to provide adequate health services to the people of the province.",
"My concern is with respect to the definitions of the particular disciplines.",
"If my memory serves me correctly we have an almost precise definition of the field of the discipline of optometry. As far as I could see we had no definition with respect to the field of pharmacy and no definition with respect to the field of nursing. We have a definition with respect to dentistry which is a sort of combination. It means what a dentist usually does in the practice of his profession and includes and sets out, in relatively precise terms, a delimitation to give an indication of the nature of the field which falls within the area of the dental field.",
"Of course, when we come to the prima donna profession, the medical profession, the minister simply has in the definition that medicine includes obstetrics and surgery. It’s not a definition at all, but in its broad phraseology of what’s involved in the practice of medicine one can simply see that the domination of the field by the medical profession is part and parcel of the ministry’s outlook toward the way in which this difficult problem of co-ordination and inter-relationship and service provision to people throughout the province is to be carried out.",
"I certainly suggest to the minister, Mr. Speaker, that those are very defective. It is extremely difficult even for the minister, who has now taken unto himself the various duties and responsibilities to which I referred earlier, to co-ordinate those health disciplines if he does not have better guidelines as to the scope and field of the various disciplines. It doesn’t seem to me to make sense that he does not make some effort to define the field of the discipline of nursing or the field of the discipline of pharmacy. It doesn’t seem to me to make sense that he leaves the field of medicine subject, for practical purposes, to no definition; because any lay person would have assumed that it included the field of obstetrics and surgery. For practical purposes, he leaves it wide open to whatever the traditional field of medicine has been as it has developed over a very long period of time.",
"The model, as I see it, should be a model somewhat along the lines of the definition with respect to the discipline of dentistry. That is, one defines the particular field in a broad sense but specifies it as including, in some detail, various areas which are covered within that particular discipline. That definition appeals to me; and it seems to my mind that the ministry should have been capable of coming up with some correlative type of definition with respect to the other areas which are included in the bill. I find it extremely difficult to decide, when one comes to this area, whether or not a person not otherwise authorized to practice in a particular discipline is, in fact, engaged in carrying on an act which falls within those definitions, when the definitions in their various ways of statement with respect to each of the disciplines are so wanting in some degree of exactitude and some degree of guidance.",
"I’m not suggesting for a single moment that one can be rigid with respect to definitions so that one compartmentalizes the health disciplines. That isn’t the purpose. What one wants is the kind of definition and the kind of statement with respect to each of the disciplines which will allow for a reasonable degree of judgement in the interrelationships and in the areas in which there must, of necessity, be a certain degree of overlapping.",
"Mr. Speaker, those are the principle matters that are of concern to me in the bill. There is a further specific matter which we will undoubtedly deal with in the committee and which will be subject to representations when the matter goes out before the standing committee on social development. That is the question with respect to the extent to which retail merchants are to be allowed to have an optical service in their particular stores.",
"As I understand it -- I have no special knowledge; I’m only talking about what I am told, but I have taken some effort to confirm it -- I understand that having gone to an ophthalmologist and had one’s eyes tested, if one then goes down to have the prescription filled in the T. Eaton Co. department store and goes to the optical place there to get a pair of glasses, one is in fact dealing with Imperial Optical. There is no sign saying one is dealing with Imperial Optical; one thinks one is dealing with the T. Eaton Co. and one is not.",
"I understand that the same is true with respect to the Robert Simpson Co. It is not Imperial Optical but an American firm, as I understand it, which presumably by contractual arrangement with the Robert Simpson Co., has the right to establish its place in the Robert Simpson store and to provide that service.",
"They are separate and distinct businesses. One is not dealing with the Robert Simpson Co. or the T. Eaton Co. when one goes into their stores and gets a prescription filled.",
"Similarly, there are situations in which an optometrist carries on his practice under his individual name because, as I understand it, there is no provision for a corporation to carry on the business of optometry other than the strange exception which the minister has set out and to which I referred earlier.",
"But I understand that in the case of an optometrist who is practising his individual trade in a particular location and has built up a business and a reasonable amount of goodwill, it would not be unusual for him to sell out a 50 per cent interest in his business to Imperial Optical and to continue to carry on his business as an optometrist under his own individual name. People dealing with him to obtain glasses and the other services the optometrist provides do not realize and are not told that in fact there is a silent partner, Imperial Optical, in that business.",
"Again, I’m not speaking in denigrating terms. It is a common business practice for an individual who is limited in the way in which he can carry on his business to realize a 50 per cent interest in his business and thereby obtain the capital that allows him to do certain other things during the course of his lifetime. In most urban centres in this day and age, of course, there is little, if any, goodwill now attached to the individual optometrist if and when he dies and his estate tries to sell off something called his business and the goodwill in connection with it.",
"It is quite a legitimate business operation to realize 50 per cent interest, probably in cash or in some way in which it could be used for investment in other fields.",
"That again is not duping the public. The individual optometrist continues to carry on the business, he shares the profit 50-50 and there are other arrangements by which he is tied to Imperial Optical. But what happens when one deals with him is that one does not know that one is dealing with a tied house.",
"I think that the ramifications of that particular section of the bill, dealing with retail merchants having this kind of outlet and the kind of a business arrangement made by optometrists that result in the monopoly operation or semi-monopoly operation of Imperial Optical being extended, are ones that require much better care and attention than has been evident simply by providing that this particular part of the bill dealing with optometry, part 5, does not apply to the method of carrying on business which I have described at the optical services divisions of the T. Eaton Co. and the Robert Simpson Co.",
"I assume I am correct. If I am not correct, perhaps the minister has the correct information. Certainly it is a well considered, accepted account of what, in fact, takes place if you deal with the Robert Simpson Co. or the T. Eaton Co. It is also well known that if, in the instance which I have used, an optometrist has sold off 50 per cent of the goodwill of his business, there is no way when you deal with him that you know that you are dealing with a silent partner who is Imperial Optical and which is part of the overall monopoly.",
"I must say that I made some effort to acquaint myself as a layman on this vexed question of the use of drugs by optometrists for optometric purposes simply by having one or two discussions with people in the fields whose judgement I tend to respect. I am inclined to accept the view expressed by my colleague, the member for High Park, that this is not a statistical game; that the person who suffers the serious side effects of the drug which is used for testing purposes, whatever the particular drug is -- side effects which require immediate attention in most instances and are, as I understand it, quite frightening, both to the person who suffers them and to anyone who observes it -- deserves to have, if it is possible to do so, the provision of immediate attention so that no untoward fatality takes place.",
"Statistically it probably doesn’t matter. People are going to die from one thing or another. But certainly statistics must give way to the individual patient who may suffer that particular untoward event, which could be avoided if in fact a qualified medical practitioner who could deal with the aftereffects were immediately present.",
"My understanding is that even at the Waterloo College the number of hours which the optometrists in their training spend in field-related to drugs is extremely low. It is extremely low compared to the nursing profession, extremely low in comparison to the dental profession; and of course, minuscule with respect to the time spent in the study of the effects of drugs by the medical profession in the course of attending their schools.",
"I don’t presume to speak with the authority with which my colleague the member for High Park, or my colleague the member for Parkdale speak about it. I do say that I incline to the view that the medical profession, the ophthalmologists, are in fact, insofar as they are able to distinguish self-interest from the public interest -- the problem we all have because we all would like to identify the public interest with our self- interest -- but to the extent they can disengage themselves from it they are saying to the minister that in the public interest they have a very real professional concern. I don’t think for a moment it is related to their desire to maintain monopoly in the field, because my guess is that optometrists and ophthalmologists and so on are doing quite well economically.",
"There comes about, of course, the continuous problem that my colleague the member for Thunder Bay (Mr. Stokes) and my other colleagues from northern Ontario raise. That is, what about the areas where there is no ophthalmologist present, what do you do? Is the optometrist to be denied this facility for testing people’s eyes?",
"I don’t know. I don’t think the minister’s short statement is an adequate answer. There must be an adequate answer to it, and I think there must be a fairly definitive one. I hope that when the minister answers and speaks on this bill he will deal with it in a direct and forthright way and not leave it up in the air to be solved by some kind of regulation which may not be adequate when you are dealing with a significant warning by a group of experts in the field such as the ophthalmologists.",
"Mr. Speaker, my other remarks on particular sections of the bill we can leave until the time when we are in the standing committee. I want to simply say to the minister how delighted I was to know he is sending this out to the standing committee so that a number of these matters can be aired with public representation and not just the input of the members of the assembly and committee of the whole House.",
"I must reiterate that those reasons -- which were set out in much greater detail and with much greater comprehensiveness and expertise by my colleague the member for Parkdale -- are the substance of the basic reasons why we in the party are opposed to this bill on second reading and why we will vote against it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon (Leader of the Opposition)",
"text": [
"We in this party intend to support the principle of the bill, although we are not satisfied with it in all of its particulars and we feel it has a very deep-seated flaw in the approach that the minister has been persuaded to take in the composition of the Health Disciplines Board and its specific responsibilities.",
"My colleague from Downsview has done a considerable study on this matter as, Mr. Speaker, I am sure you are aware. We agree wholeheartedly with the contention that he put before you earlier today that such a board must have its hearings in public where the circumstances particularly will permit it. There has to be the right of reasons being made available when the board reaches its decision. There are a whole list of inadequacies in the establishment of this as a board that will serve the public, and particularly those members of the public who feel that an injustice has been done by one of the health disciplines for which the board has responsibility.",
"It is regrettable that when a substantial departure is being made after a good deal of research and contemplation, and in fact delay, that the board cannot be established with greater powers that would permit it to command a good deal more confidence in the community.",
"I have been very sorry that there has been this delay in bringing forward the bill. I also feel that the minister is being very timorous in the way he has approached the recommendations in the Mustard report of the Health Planning Task Force,",
"I just want to spend a moment in that connection. When the report was tabled. Dr. Mustard had specific recommendations -- for example for establishing an implementation committee without delay. But the minister said that although the cover of the report is orange he considers it green -- whatever that significance is -- and essentially he has put it on the shelf to gather a little dust, because he does not want to move forward, specifically with the recommendations pertaining to a change in the administration at the regional level, that has been suggested.",
"I want to deal with an area of personal interest; and that is the scope set out for the various areas in this bill, particularly as they deal with the allied health professionals. We have been talking about this now for five or six years in the Legislature as it pertained to the responsibilities of optometrists, dentists, dental therapists -- as they are now legally designated -- or the denturists; who continue to practice against the laws of the Province of Ontario even though it is expected that with a reasonable change of opinion those laws will be set straight.",
"I don’t intend to make my denturists speech. You and the minister know my views, Mr. Speaker. I think the minister and I see eye to eye on this if the reports of his statements to those people from the dental profession and the denturists are to be believed. I simply look forward to the day when he and his cabinet colleagues can persuade his caucus -- the Conservative caucus -- of the reasonableness of changing a law that was entered into with inadequate study and is seen to be, in my view, unenforceable.",
"I did want to say something about the optometrists, since the scope of that profession has been the subject of the minister’s discussions with ophthalmologists, optometrists, the Ontario Medical Association in general, and other members of the community.",
"I well recall the startled reaction from the ophthalmologists when, by way of letter, the minister indicated he was thinking of removing from them the right of examining patients except by referral. In other words, that the optometrists would in fact be the first con- tact with the eye profession, if you might call it that, or by referral from a medical doctor.",
"As a matter of fact the story never really was fully revealed, other than that the ophthalmologists seemed to be electrified to the extent that they contacted the private members in their own area and forcefully indicated that they did not want to be deprived of this right to deal directly and without referral. They even went so far, as a provincial organization, as to invite the members of the Legislature to a small repast, at which time they could express their views collectively and directly to us, which they did very forcefully indeed.",
"Now there seems to be another controversy and that has to do with the scope of optometry and the submissions by the OMA reflecting the views of the ophthalmologists that the optometrists should not have the right to use any drugs whatsoever in the eye for the assistance of their examination procedures. I’ve read the briefs from the optometrists and ophthalmologists carefully, and I must say to you, Mr. Speaker, that I agree with the principle the minister has put forward, that the optometrists should have the right to use certain carefully restricted drugs for purposes of examination.",
"I would also agree that the minister’s statement so far has been inadequate, or insufficient, to satisfy either me or, I’m sure, the members of the OMA, specifically the ophthalmologists, that the restrictions are going to be sufficient for them to at least give their approval, or let’s say to express their agreement. I doubt if the ophthalmologists would express their agreement to the use of even distilled water, but that’s another matter.",
"Some members of the OMA who have spoken to me did not have an objection until the bill was brought down. As a matter of fact, there was some indication that since other jurisdictions had permitted optometrists to use some of these drugs -- I should have a proper name for them and I think it is in my notes. What do you call them?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"Topical anaesthetics."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Topical anaesthetics. Do those dilate the pupil?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"Those are mydriatics."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Well, let’s say topical anaesthetics and mydriatics are the drugs to which I’m referring, and I personally believe the optometrists should have the legal right to use them.",
"I suppose, having worn eyeglasses almost since I can remember, and having had some personal experience with the professional advice and treatment of ophthalmologists and optometrists, I can say that I have a great deal of confidence in both these classes of professionals and would point out to you, Mr. Speaker, that about 60 per cent of the people of the province do not have ready access to ophthalmologists. I think we should also understand that the high level of professional attainments of the ophthalmologists, in my view, should be reserved for perhaps more important examinations and treatments other than simply the refraction that is necessary in order to prescribe spectacles or eyeglasses to correct problems of vision.",
"l was interested to read the report of the Committee on the Healing Arts which states, on page 251, recommendation 127:",
"That the Optometry Act be amended to permit the use by optometrists of drugs needed for diagnostic purposes provided that the undergraduate programmes in the use and effect of such drugs are instituted and that optometrists now practising who wish to use drugs meet the requirements of a postgraduate course to be offered by the School of Optometry.",
"There have been other recommendations, including the federal royal commission report that was written by Mr. Justice Emmett Hall some years ago that made a similar general recommendation.",
"Other jurisdictions have permitted optometrists to use these restricted drugs. The United Kingdom for one, Pennsylvania quite recently and Rhode Island before that; and it seems to be more and more accepted that optometrists, as long as their training is specified and accepted, have this right and its very great responsibility.",
"I have in my hand, Mr. Speaker, the booklet setting out the course presented to the students at the School of Optometry, the Faculty of Science, University of Waterloo, which as you know prescribes a five-year course for optometry.",
"If I have any criticism, it seems to me that in five years a person interested in this profession might very well have taken a medical degree, if he or she could have obtained admittance to a medical school. A superficial examination of the curriculum will show that in year five a course in ocular pharmacology is presented, two lectures a week. I don’t believe it’s for the full term, but the description indicates that it is a part of the formal training, that by the way gives the graduates of the course a doctoral degree in optometry.",
"I notice in passing that nothing in this bill prohibits the allied health professionals from using the term “doctor.” I would assume that since these graduates have a doctoral degree from a recognized provincially-assisted university the question as to whether they are going to be known as doctors or not would be settled by the omission from the bill of any specific requirement in that regard. That will please a great many optometrists and annoy a great many medical doctors. I have no objection to this. As a matter of fact, being a patient of an optometrist myself, and recognizing the fact that he has a doctoral degree, I usually refer to him with that title and I don’t think it’s anything other than a recognition of his attainments.",
"The argument, that there may very well be a confusion in the minds of certain people that the optometrist is in fact not a medical practitioner and therefore does not have either the abilities or the responsibilities to treat a wider range of ailments, may be valid, but after all educational procedures now extending to five years warrant the kind of recognition that the bill tacitly permits.",
"I feel, however, that the bill could have included a section that by law requires the optometrist to report any pathological circumstances to a medical practitioner or make some indication to the patient of the presence of these pathological indications. Perhaps this is not necessary; surely it would be almost unimaginable that any information such as this that came to the attention of the optometrist would not be so reported; but there are other instances where such a requirement is a part of the enactment and it is perhaps something that we should give some consideration to.",
"I wanted really to make my position clear in this regard, because there has been perhaps an exaggeration of the threat and danger to the public health or the individual wellbeing in the provisions of this statute which does extend these powers to use certain restricted drugs to optometrists.",
"The good doctor from High Park added to this probably more than any other spokesman for the OMA when he indicated that some people will lose their vision and some people will lose their lives. I hope that this is an exaggeration, because there have been medical opinions expressed in less extreme terms than that. I realize that the opthalmologists and the Ontario Medical Association in general do feel a heavy and almost corporate responsibility in this regard. We have seen the dentists bringing forward their strong, and to them valid objections to extending even the right to fit dentures to a group that does not have their full professional, and I suppose paramedical training.",
"I have a strong prejudice myself, in no way against doctors, but certainly strongly in favour of those people who are generally referred to as paramedicals, or more properly allied health professionals. As long as their course of instruction comes under the approval and supervision of the Ministry of Health and their methods of practice have their scope carefully outlined in legislation, such as the bill that we are dealing with today, it might be easy for a prejudiced person to feel that the medical practitioners and the dentists were unnecessarily protective of their prerogatives in this regard. I don’t feel that, but it might possibly be for segments of the community to respond to their strong objections to any expansion of the scope of these allied health professionals in that way. That, I would say to you, Mr. Speaker, would be my feeling of support where the ministry brings forward as a matter of policy the type of expansion in scope that I have indicated, where there is a full administrative review of this scope and where it is carefully set out by statute with all of the safeguards that can be brought to bear through the powers of the Legislature and the undoubted administrative powers of the Ministry of Health with their uncounted and uncountable experts, supervisors and general factotum."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"That’s me."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"The minister is the general factotum? All right, that may be.",
"I was interested as well in the comments made by the member for Riverdale in the application of this bill to optometric services, lets say by Eaton’s and Simpsons and other large companies. I personally have an objection to that. I think it detracts to some extent from the professional safeguards that one might otherwise expect. It obviously becomes the kind of money-making operation that the shoe counter and the candy counter and the women’s dress counter are. In my view it does not add to the confidence that the people might otherwise have in a professional service. I don’t intend even to offer an amendment to the bill in that regard, although some of my colleagues might be interested in it.",
"It tends to bring back the whole problem that the fitting of eyeglasses has been subjected to when my colleague, the member for Ottawa East (Mr. Roy), brought to public attention the fact that the Ophthalmic Dispensers Board seemed to be dominated by Imperial Optical, however good its services. For many years I was fitted with glasses from that company. I have no doubt that there might even be a connection with that company and the glasses I wear right now. Maybe that accounts for some of my political myopia. I thought I’d say that before the minister did. It seems to me the stronger the professional aspects that can be brought to bear through legislation, the better.",
"Just in closing my remarks, I am quite enthusiastically in support of the concept of the bill, that is to use the powers of the Legislature to define carefully the scope of practice of these allied health professionals. That is the only way we are going to come to grips with the problems that have always arisen with chiropractors and other groups, where without a carefully definition there are going to be those few irresponsible practitioners who tend to go beyond the limits that one would normally think would be set professionally and by the internal procedures of an association of professionals. Obviously we cannot depend on that and it is our job in the Legislature to establish that scope.",
"I want to say that the concept is good and we are prepared to support it on that basis. We have some doubts, strongly stated by my colleague, the member for Downsview, about the powers that have been granted to the Health Disciplines Board and we will be offering amendments in that regard. I hope the minister, still being a reasonable man and not having had his feet and his mind set in ministerial cement as yet, will consider them, because we believe that board can be strengthened in its ability to serve the cause of justice, and particularly the cause of the individuals in this province who feel that otherwise justice would not be done."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I want to raise a number of points about the bill, particularly in relation to nursing. I have to apologize to the minister because certain information that I have raised in the Legislature I had not sent to him up until now. It’s something that has been on my agenda, particularly in relation to temporary nursing agencies. I will raise some of this material in the Legislature. I intend to send the material to the minister at the soonest opportunity and I apologize for the delay.",
"I want to talk about nursing because I don’t think that a number of problems I have come into contact with in the relationships between the profession and the College of Nurses; the public and the College of Nurses; and the College of Nurses and certain commercial agencies active in the nursing field, are adequately dealt with in this particular field. I think in addition there is a very serious weakness in the whole structure of the discipline provisions of the College of Nurses. It may affect other health disciplines as well, but since this is the area on which I have some information I would prefer to talk about nursing alone. I would recommend to the minister, though, that he and his people inquire into the disciplinary situation in other health professions as well to see whether there is some- thing comparable to this particular situation.",
"If I can talk about discipline first, it’s clear that the various colleges, including the College of Nurses, are being given an enormous responsibility to apply professional standards, to ensure that every registered member of their college is practising within the limits of professional requirements and to protect the public against malpractice. However, that protection against malpractice in the case of nursing rests on a very slender foundation.",
"It rests on a slender foundation because disciplinary complaints are only brought to the attention of the college by a complainant. When one gets down to it, one finds in a typical year there are very few complaints which have been registered with the College of Nurses. In fact, the number of complaints registered with the college has been something of the order of fewer than 100 per year against all the nurses in the province. I believe there are something like 80,000 trained nurses in the province, although considerably fewer are actually registered at any particular time.",
"My figures indicate that about a third of the complaints come from the hospitals; about a third come from nursing registries, presumably mainly the non-profit ones sponsored by the nurses themselves; and the remainder come from other sources. The police are a substantial source of the remainder of the complaints, but there are very few complaints which come directly from the public.",
"These are handled by administrative means; and when one gets to the existence of the present complaints committee, one finds that no more than maybe six or eight or nine complaints are actually dealt with by the complaints committee in the course of a year. In other words, the other complaints are handled in an informal way or are fobbed off; God knows what happens to them.",
"Maybe they are dealt with quite satisfactorily but the comments of the member for Riverdale, I think, are very well taken if one applies them to the particular situation in the nursing profession. Clearly, the very elaborate means of handling complaints and applying discipline and using the agency of the Health Disciplines Board is pretty ineffective if only a tenth of a very small number of complaints ever reach the first stage of that process, which is the complaints committee of the College of Nurses.",
"According to the information I have, only three or four nurses were actually struck from the roles -- in other words were actually disciplined -- over the course of a typical year. These figures are averages, of course, for the last three or four years. I don’t know the figures for the most recent year.",
"I think it’s clear that the College of Nurses is not nearly as tough as, say the College of Physicians and Surgeons. It may also be that it’s more difficult to pin down responsibility in the case of a nurse than it is in the case of a doctor or someone else, but I am not convinced about that particular argument. I am really not convinced.",
"It seems to me there’s another set of facts which may also fit the situation and which may be fairly worrisome and that’s the following. As the minister knows, many nurses in the province are employees. They work for a hospital or they work for a public health unit. They have a professional job as employees. If their standards start to slip or if they start to take to drink or if there is some suspicion of drugs or something like that, the tendency, it seems to me, has been that the nurse is quietly let go from that particular institution or employer. There may even be a little quiet chat with the superintendent, a nursing sister, a director of nursing, or it may be even just another friend on the floor at the same level, who says: “Look, you are not hacking it. Why don’t you go off and do something else?” But there is nothing to stop that nurse coming back into nursing at another point, because normally action of a disciplinary kind is not taken.",
"What happens then is that the nurse quite possibly slips down the ladder from her prestige job to a less prestigious job; maybe she lands up working for a nursing home operator who is trying to meet the regulations at the least possible cost; maybe she lands up working for a temporary care agency which is not particularly worried about the credentials as long as she has an RN after her name.",
"Now, the College of Nurses has, to say the least, not been assiduous about its disciplinary review, about raising the consciousness about the possibility of discipline. It does not publicize, in the same way as the College of Physicians, the results of its disciplinary actions; I think that the actions of the College of Physicians are themselves wanting, but nevertheless at least the public is aware through publicity that if you think you are being mucked about with by your doctor you can put in a complaint.",
"I think the minister is aware of the fact that for the ordinary individual -- a patient, or the relative of a patient, or a former patient -- it is difficult anyway to raise a complaint and to file a complaint and to do it in written form. It’s more difficult when you have to go through the number of stages which are provided for in this particular bill. And it’s more difficult too when the College of Nurses, the body governing in this particular situation, makes no effort to make it known that this disciplinary provision exists.",
"What I am saying is that that is a very slender kind of basis on which to base the authority of the College of Nurses over people who are already registered. A nurse could keep paying her $6 a year for registration, not practise for 30 years, and at the end of that time could walk into a hospital or a nursing home or someplace else that wanted a nurse and would be legally entitled to practise.",
"I checked it out in the case of my own mother who is retired and who has not practised as a nurse since about 1943. By accident she is qualified in British Columbia and has never been registered in Ontario. Had she registered in Ontario when we came here in the 1940s she would now, after 30 years and despite some very serious illness, be entitled to work as a registered nurse in the Province of Ontario.",
"In addition Mr. Speaker, I’m told that while the College of Nurses is pretty tough -- and I’ll talk about this in a minute -- with people who come in from outside the province and seek registration in the Province of Ontario -- in fact it’s arbitrarily tough in certain instances as the minister may be aware, and I will make him aware in a minute -- the hospitals which are the major employers of nurses are not very careful in some cases, are incautious in other cases and are downright careless in others, about vetting the qualifications of people who come to work for them as RN’s.",
"I have not got direct evidence of this but I have it on very excellent authority that hospitals are inclined to accept the word of nurses when they come in that they are qualified. I understand there are a significant number of hospitals in the province that do not, as a practice, either get the qualifications of all nurses who apply for jobs or check them on a sample basis or on a selective basis when they have reason to presume there may be something that deserves checking out.",
"That, it seems to me, is a serious weakness. And it’s a weakness which the College of Nurses should be aware of. It means that there is not a continual vetting of nurses’ qualifications and competence. If the woman or the male nurse doesn’t work out after a month or two, they get shunted off to some place where they can’t do too much harm and then they get shunted right out of the hospital. Then they go and they find themselves work elsewhere.",
"This is pretty important because in fact the work that a nurse does isn’t applying tender, loving care, as the minister is aware. The amount of intravenous solution that is given -- the metering and monitoring of that, for example -- or the amount or dosage of drug being administered by a nurse can kill or cure a patient. One mistake can cost a life. It’s a serious business and therefore the question of professional competence is very much to be worried about.",
"In addition, Mr. Speaker, the College of Nurses apparently has, under the present regulations, an authority of some sort over the registries of nurses which exist in the province, both the non-profit ones which are co-operatives and the commercial registries. The minister is aware there is a large number of graduate nurses who are finding employment with these registries at sub-normal rates of pay but who, in the situations where they are working, often carry out all the responsibilities of an RN. It appears they may have to work under the supervision, whatever that means, of an RN, but in practice they function as fully qualified registered nurses with virtually all the authority and responsibility of an RN. That’s what the hospitals do and that’s what the nursing registries have them do.",
"The vetting of qualifications by these nursing registries is totally inadequate. I have cases in my files here of people who have simply phoned up and said: “Hi, I’m a nurse; I’d like to get a job. I was trained in ( -- )” and then they name some obscure country. The answer on the phone is, “Why don’t you come down and we’ll get you out tomorrow?”",
"There is the case, the minister may recall it, of Betty Lee who was then writing for the Globe and Mail. She walked into a Toronto hospital, I think, and got herself hired as a nurse despite the lack of any qualifications here in the province.",
"The examination results of graduate nurses are often wanting. That is, they are often seriously deficient in a number of different subjects, according to the examinations of the National League of Nurses, but the standards required by the College of Nurses are, to say the least, not very demanding. Nevertheless they have had failure rates among graduate nurses as high as 60 and 70 per cent in certain cases. The failure rates are particularly high with nurses who have qualified in certain countries and who have come to Canada to try to work.",
"In the case of underdeveloped countries it may be that the wage the nurses can receive as graduates, without registration, is sufficiently elevated by contrast to their home country that there is no incentive for them to try to reach a qualification they can’t get because of inadequate training in their homeland. So we have the situation of a kind of nursing proletariat which is tolerated in this province.",
"I wonder what people of the province would say if doctors trained anywhere in the world were permitted to practise in this province on a sort of a loose fraternal arrangement with some other fellow. Suppose they went into practice with somebody who’s a qualified doctor in Ontario, took up an office at the other end of the corridor and practised to all intents and purposes, as though they were GPs or specialists, despite the fact that their credentials had never been vetted in this province. That would clearly be unacceptable and yet that is the position as far as nurses who are graduate nurses here in the province are concerned.",
"That’s one side of the picture, Mr. Speaker. The other side of the picture is that when it comes to protecting something -- I don’t know whether it’s the economic status of nurses or whether it’s a kind of exaggerated view of the standards of nursing in the Province of Ontario -- and applying these to foreign applicants for registration in the province, the College of Nurses has proved to be vindictive, arbitrary and irrational in its decisions. It has proved to be very difficult to work with.",
"This is a situation of which the minister became aware when he was parliamentary secretary to the Ministry of Health, eight or 10 months ago; it is a situation which, unfortunately, continues. I had thought that by the end of the year we had pretty much ironed out the situation; that most of the people with whom I was in contact, and others were in contact, who were seeking permission to write the exams of the National League of Nurses and to become qualified as RN’s in this province, were well on the way.",
"You can imagine my surprise, then, to find out of 106 people in one group -- the Association of Nurses Educated Abroad which had been trying for six months or more to get action from the College of Nurses and which had welcomed the revision of policies by the College of Nurses last September -- of 106 people with whom they were in contact at the end of January or in early February, only 18 had become eligible for registration or had been given permission to write examinations in June, 1974. The apparently deliberate efforts of the College of Nurses to put people off has continued, and the mistreatment of people with exceptional qualifications has continued as well.",
"Frankly, I think that the credibility of the College of Nurses in coming down so hard on nurses educated abroad is dangerous and unjustified. It is dangerous because it encourages people to remain in a graduate status, rather than getting their registered status; and that means we have people practising as nurses in the province who just aren’t qualified, or aren’t known to be qualified, by any standards we have here in the province.",
"It is unjustified because of the exceptionally low-standard of qualification that is set for nurses who are educated in the two-year course in Ontario nursing schools. When our nursing graduates write the National League of Nursing exams set by the Canadian Association of Nurses, Mr. Speaker, they are required to get a passing mark of only 325 out of 700. It is a multiple-choice examination. As I understand it, you can’t help by the laws of chance getting somewhere around a 25 per cent mark; that is about 175 marks. And in order to pass the exams, all you need is 325 -- which is something less than 50 per cent.",
"We are saying that on the multiple choice, people who are qualified to nurse in Ontario need know less than half the questions that are put to them on the standard nursing exam. The standard that is applied to applicants from abroad is slightly higher, 350. That is the standard that is applied in most other provinces -- and it seems to me that standard too, is shockingly low and ought to be raised.",
"But when you look at the qualifications of people who have been seeking to get entry to nursing -- particularly the ones who have been educated in Britain -- it just boggles the mind the treatment that they have had from the College of Nurses. One asks oneself what on earth is it that this college is trying to protect if the nursing programmes in the province are such that people can’t even get what is normally considered to be a passing mark.",
"Take a woman named Dorothy Thomson, who is now working as a graduate nurse in Belleville because she has only just been accepted for the examinations in June. She had a grade 13 education in Scotland; three years training as a sick children’s nurse; first prize in anatomy at the Aberdeen Royal Hospital, an excellent institution; first prize in her final class; 2½ more years training at Aberdeen Royal Infirmary for a registered general nurse; first prize in general training in her class; a prize winner somewhere along the way in anatomy, and in physiology; sat her obstetrics examination in Nova Scotia; charge nurse and hospital supervisor in various hospitals in Nova Scotia.",
"In September, 1972, she moved to Ontario with her husband and applied to the College of Nurses of Ontario for registration, giving them the transcript and the other information that they would normally require. She received a letter back from them, saying: “We find that you don’t have the academic requirements necessary for admission into nursing in this province.’ In other words, go back to high school. “We also find that you are deficient in the areas of social and biological sciences, and pediatric nursing.” This particular woman had taken three years as a sick children’s nurse. When she went down to talk to the college they said: “Oh no, we didn’t mean pediatrics, we meant psychiatric nursing.” And they changed that requirement.",
"She pointed out to them she had had biology in her high school, that she had been a prizewinner in anatomy and physiology -- but they refused to relent on the question of biological sciences. Eventually they sent her a letter saying they would waive the requirement for high school, and that if she would take the course in sociology, and a course in psychology at Loyalist College, and if she would then enrol in a school of nursing and complete a course in psychiatric nursing, then they would consider that she could come forward for the exams.",
"Some of those regulations have changed Mr. Speaker, but the latest round -- I think I have it here -- from the College of Nurses was that in October, 1973, with the new requirement, they finally decided she would be eligible for the examination. They still refused to recognize that she had written her obstetrics examination in Nova Scotia and she had written the examination which they required of her. The whole tone of the letter was to leave her still in the dark.",
"I’ll quote one sentence. “As part of the requirement for registration at the nurse level in this province you must pass our provincial registration examination.” But she had gone through so many hoops at this point that she was not aware -- and had to find out from the college -- whether this was the final hoop or whether there were not other requirements she would have to meet. Ninety days’ notice was required before she could sit the exam. Since the letter came on Oct. 10, she was too late for the January exams and is now sitting the examination in June.",
"The college is a very curious body, Mr. Speaker. There are a number of cases I can communicate to the minister in which when I have phoned up and asked about a particular case, that particular case has been resolved very quickly. It is wrong that a professional college should have to work in that particular way and that it should respond purely to pressure. It is wrong that it should not have been actively seeking that make-up courses be made available for foreign-trained nurses if they did need obstetrics or psychiatry, one particular course. It has not been active in that particular direction.",
"What is particularly wrong in the case of the British nurses is that the college has made an enormous song and dance about transcripts for their particular course of study in their particular hospital. The minister is probably aware that in Britain there is a state curriculum and people have to write examinations to become a State Registered Nurse. To write those exams they must pass a course from a nursing school which is approved by the college of nurses of Britain or whatever that equivalent body is called.",
"Moreover, the British standards are known to be high and moreover, in Canada, the College of Nurses quite rightly insists on safe practice being proved. That is that there be some practice in Ontario or other jurisdiction by which it is shown that the nurse can practice well. There is the writing of these four examinations on top of the completion of all the requirements for a certificate from another country.",
"Nevertheless, any number of these applicants from Britain have been hassled unmercifully because the college insisted on transcripts that fitted North American standards. Unfortunately for the applicants the British programme mixes theory and practice much more intimately than is done in Ontario and the British nursing schools simply don’t understand the credit system, the unit system and all the various other fripperies we are so inured to in our North American system of education.",
"The British hospitals couldn’t deliver the information to the College of Nurses in the form it wanted to have it. The consequence was that letter followed letter back and forth and the college exploited every opportunity for delay in order to try to turn off these applicants. One assumes, Mr. Speaker, the reason it sought to turn them off was that it was trying to protect Ontario-trained nurses from competition from abroad. I can’t think of any other reason.",
"I don’t think that is a way in which this thing should be applied. We have immigration regulations. As it happens those rules now make it difficult for nurses to come into the country. That is the point at which Ontario and Canadian nurses should be protected if there is a danger of oversupply and if there is a threat or too great a foreign immigration.",
"The question of registration should not be the means used to stop foreigners, particularly when many foreign-trained nurses have just happened to come with their kids and families because they and their husbands decided it would be a good thing to come to Canada. In this particular case, the nurse’s decision -- the housewife’s decision -- was, in a sense, secondary to the husband’s decision to come here. He was offered a good job. She came as well. She wanted to practise and contribute to Canadian society. She found she needed to because the cost of living was so high. She was blocked by the College of Nurses, which apparently was trying to keep out sweet young things, male and female, who might have wanted to come over straight after graduation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. Dukszta (Parkdale)",
"text": [
"That’s a quick recovery."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"There are male nurses, I would point out Mr. Speaker, although the ones that I have been in contact with are generally female nurses.",
"I don’t understand why the College of Nurses could not have simply said: “Okay we accept the state registration from Britain and we accept certain qualifications from Germany, from France, perhaps from Italy, from Holland, from Australia, possibly from Jamaica and other countries that follow the British standards; and then we will apply our screening which is the safe practice requirement and the examination requirement.",
"That would have been a reasonable kind of step to take. But no; applicants have been delayed for as long as three and four years, Mr. Speaker. I have one case of a woman named Mrs. Wilma Elaine Skeete, a West Indian who was trained in Britain and who to my view meets the requirements to come and sit the Ontario exams. However, every step that has been taken has been taken by the college in order to discourage Mrs. Skeete from getting registered. She has been trying for about 3% years. Eventually I think that the college told her that she might work as a registered nursing assistant.",
"At one point, the college was saying to applicants that it would not permit them to qualify as RNAs because the discipline of mind needed was different. They had to work under instructions from an RN. This was regardless of the fact that the regulations themselves said that any person who was registered as a nurse in a foreign jurisdiction could automatically qualify as an RNA within the Province of Ontario. The college was not even applying its own regulations.",
"It is curious, when the Association of Nurses Educated Abroad renewed its pressure on the college this spring, that suddenly it was all click, click, click, and things started to happen again. Suddenly of the 60 or 80 people who were waiting for decisions from the college, about 30 found they were being admitted to the June examination. Suddenly the college said that the 90-day delay for applying for the examination was being waived at this time and they would hold places open for anybody who could show almost up to examination day that they could be qualified to write the exams. The history all the way through has been that the college has responded to pressure, but that it has not been willing to give these foreign applicants a fair shake.",
"When I look at the bill, Mr. Speaker, I find that the bill says that anybody who is refused registration by a college -- this is in the general section of the bill -- may appeal to the Health Disciplines Board. But the relevant section says that the appeal goes forward with the written documentation, presumably the documentation which has been submitted to the particular college and to the registration board of that particular college.",
"In the case of the nurses there will be only one outsider and nine nurses on the registration board, which is pretty heavily biased in favour of the profession. It may be biased in favour of the bureaucrats of the College of Nurses, who I may say have not been at all helpful in their dealing with nurses and whose powers of communication have been wanting, have been inadequate and have been grossly insulting in certain cases.",
"Now there is no way by which an applicant for registration before the College of Nurses can go personally before the Health Disciplines Board in order to lodge the appeal. There is no way, apparently, by which a group can go, such as this Association of Nurses Educated Abroad, who are seeking action on a communal basis because they confront not an individual problem but a common problem of discrimination. They cannot go as a group; and this kind of access appears to be denied, unless the minister intervenes. I’m aware that power is there for the minister to order an inquiry by the Health Disciplines Board and I welcome that particular part of it; but it seems to me that these rights should not be on a grace and favour basis.",
"Let me just talk briefly and finally, Mr. Speaker, about the ripoff of nurses which is condoned by the ministry, both through its powers over the College of Nurses and through its funding of public hospitals in the province. The ceilings on hospital expenditure are one of the reasons hospitals employ so many graduate nurses. The major source of graduate nurses has been through commercial registries such as Upjohn and Comcare. In the case of Comcare, a group which I know of in Ottawa and which is active in other cities, the organization is taking at least 25 per cent, and often more, off the top of nurses’ wages. For somebody working part-time that will amount easily to $1,000 or more a year. The rates of pay which are left to nurses are grossly inadequate.",
"Mr. Speaker, the minister knows about the settlement that has been reached in the case of hospital cleaners and persons like that. I want to read to him, and to put on the record, the record for a woman named Sheila Wise, a registered nurse who lives on Lascelles Blvd. in Toronto. There has been a small increase since, but last December she was working with Comcare as a nurse, doing home care. The gross rate she was receiving was $3.04 an hour. And when one looks at the pay slip, Mr. Speaker, it shows 48 hours of work in the week of Nov. 23 and a gross pay of $148 for that period of time. After deductions, which amounted to $29.80, her net pay was $119.03 for 48 hours. In other words, she received about $2.20 an hour in take-home pay for a 48-hour week -- and no overtime either.",
"That’s exploitation, Mr. Speaker, and that is what has been happening with the hospital workers. We find here that a registered nurse, who is qualified and has professional responsibilities, was at that time receiving far less than even a hospital cleaner would have been receiving.",
"When one looks at the other side of it, though, Mr. Speaker, here is the charge sheet from a person in Ottawa who hired a home care nurse for seven days. For two days this person had a registered nurse at a rate of $35 a day, for a total of $70. The $35 a day compares with the $24.48 a day that was being received by Comcare registered nurses, $10 or more was being taken off the top by Comcare in order to fatten its profits.",
"Then for five days she had an RNA for $135. The total bill was $205 for a week of care.",
"But Comcare is just as ungentle with its patients as it is with its workers, because in this particular case, 28 days after the bill was incurred, an invoice came in from Comcare for $205 for the services which were rendered at the current rate. Then Comcare had the temerity to charge 10 per cent or $20.50 of interest for one month when, in my book, the bill wasn’t even overdue. That’s an interest rate of 120 per cent a year.",
"Comcare has sent out a circular to hospitals in Ottawa, in which it offers registered nurses, RNAs, nursing attendants, nurses’ aides and those kinds of people. The major people provided by Comcare, however, are not, RNs but graduate nurses. This is a piece of deception, a bait-and-switch tactic is in evidence here, because Comcare will substitute a graduate nurse, who possibly just came off the plane and quite possibly could never pass Ontario requirements, and they will be charged in at perhaps $3 a day less than the rate for a fully qualified registered nurse.",
"Comcare advertises a registered nurse but often supplies a graduate nurse. And the hospitals, which are anxious to save a few bucks, go along with that and let the judgement of Comcare or the commercial registry, supersede their own as far as qualifications of nurses are concerned.",
"In the case of Comcare, at one point they had a 23-year-old RN making decisions as to who should be hired and who should be sent where and who shouldn’t be. That compares with the normal hospital requirements that their personnel directors should be university-trained nurses with broad experience in handling nursing personnel.",
"Clearly they had some real deficiencies there and the College of Nurses has not been active there at all.",
"Comcare itself puts out publicity to people who want to nurse. Among other things, it says specifically to them that there is “no fee to pay,” when in fact the fee they pay is a minimum of about $10 a day. It is taken off the top before they actually see any pay.",
"I think the minister should ask whether he is willing to tolerate a situation where professionally qualified nurses should get only $25 a day or $125 a week before deductions and less than that after a normal 45-hour week. I wonder whether he considers that to be adequate remuneration or whether he doesn’t consider that the situation of these professional registries, which have been seeking to corner the major part of the part-time temporary market, that is the hospitals, doesn’t deserve inquiry. He should consider whether the co-operative nursing registries shouldn’t be encouraged, and whether hospitals shouldn’t be told in no uncertain terms to stop patronizing these firms, many of which are American-owned, and do the work themselves; look after the co-operatives, work out other systems and sit down with the union in order to find means by which nurses can get full value for their professional services rather than being ripped off.",
"Mr. Speaker, these are a few of the concerns that I wanted to bring before the minister in relation to the College of Nurses. I would suggest that he look at these questions of discipline, of the registries, of the inadequate standards for Ontario-trained nurses, of arbitrary application of standards for foreign-trained nurses, and of the profusion, unchecked and even encouraged by current policy of the College of Nurses, of graduate nurses in the province. At the very least there is an awful lot for the minister to put his mind to when he gets down to applying this new Act.",
"If one can put it a bit more strongly, it raises in my mind some very real questions as to whether the College of Nurses deserves to have the responsibilities that it is being granted in this particular bill. I seriously question it. I sort of wonder whether they shouldn’t be taken under trusteeship for a year or two while they show cause that they are capable of running things on their own. It seems to me that the kind of way which they have got out of touch with their own profession and with the public indicates the dangers of this delegation of power to the self-governing professions, and that has been particularly strong in the case of nursing."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Are there any other hon. members who wish to speak before the minister?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I will try to be brief in summarizing the many comments made over some 5½ hours of debate by a number of hon. members. I think, though, that I should point out that this bill has not been rushed through the House. It has had a progression that started some years ago.",
"It started with a very thorough review of the various health disciplines and their roles in the Committee of the Healing Arts. That vast report was carefully scrutinized by the Ontario Council of Health. From these discussions and reviews came forward a set of guiding principles enunciated by a Minister of Health some years ago. A draft bill of legislation, basically created by the health disciplines themselves, was put forward as a discussion piece. This was followed by almost two full years of discussion with all the disciplines which wished to offer opinions, with the public and with members of our own ministry.",
"From all of this came the present bill. I repeat all this because I want to point out that sometimes one gets an almost schizophrenic reaction from the opposition that we have given little thought to this or are trying to ignore the feelings of the public. I agree that there is still need for more public discussion, and this is one of the reasons why we have committed ourselves to having second reading of this bill, at least the committee stage, handled in standing committee of the House, so that the public may appear before it and so that we may, in fact, con- sider amendments to any particular part.",
"I, for one, want to say that I am not unprepared to accept amendments to parts -- I want that understood -- from those people who have offered very thoughtful comments on it in the last few days, and from the health disciplines who’ve discussed the parts with me. However, I think we will have to depend on that committee’s judgement to determine which of the amendments should be accepted.",
"One of the more important points that’s been talked about by at least two or three members of the opposition, particularly those who have legal training, has been the question of the powers of the board in two areas: the review of complaints and disciplinary matters, and, secondly, the authority of the board itself. I only want to say at this time that I am seriously considering those points on the complaints procedures and want, to look at the thoughts expressed by the members opposite.",
"As far as the authority of the board in terms of the duties of the minister versus the duties of the board, as it was originally discussed, I think I would have to say that a great deal of examination of those rules has been given. We came to the conclusion, during the two years of discussion, that in fact the Minister of Health was responsible for the regulation and co-ordination of the health disciplines of the Province of Ontario and, therefore, the responsibility for those duties should be vested in him. Therefore, we took it upon ourselves to take those duties from the Health Disciplines Board and give them to the minister.",
"Secondly, there was a conflict in role that was discerned by a number of legal people in the sense that we were, in the first draft. giving the Health Disciplines Board both a regulation-making capability and an appeal function based on some of the regulations it wrote. In our opinion that type of conflict should not have existed in that one body. Therefore we separated the authorities.",
"A lot of discussion has been given to the use of allied health personnel other than the physician or the dentist. If I listened to some of the comments from the hon. members I would come to the conclusion that nothing but an ultraspecialist should be permitted to perform any function. Well, simply, that is not the purpose of the allied health people. It is to make the maximum use of people with the necessary minimum training.",
"If, in fact, we are going to have enough manpower and a control on costs, obviously one does not need a specialist to perform every function. Properly described, the scopes of practice of the allied health personnel will allow them to perform a useful role augmenting the functions of the more highly skilled people and, in some cases where they are primary care people, acting as the screen that directs those patients in need of more intensive care to the proper people.",
"A great deal of discussion has centred on the question of the use of drugs by optometrists. The members can begin to see why only five or six parts are here at this point in time. It’s easy to say we should wait until all 25 or 30 parts are ready, but we might be here forever if we waited until all were ready. I think it’s very important to deal with each as we can and to bring them to the House and to get them into effect.",
"We spent many, many, many months and hours of discussion, interchange of memos, and so on, attempting to get a common ground that both the ophthalmologists and the optometrists could agree upon. We did not get complete agreement. Certainly, we have modified the position. If we followed the advice of the Committee on the Healing Arts we would have granted the use of at least four drugs to the optometrists. We chose to give them the use of one drug, although we do not say that in statute. One of the reasons we chose to leave the statute the way it was was to have the flexibility necessary at any point in time to reconsider the use of drugs and the skills of the people using them.",
"By the way, I should point out the fact that the hon. member for High Park made some categorical statements, which is his way and his wont, on the fact that the dispensing optician -- what did he call him in here? He called him the optometric optician or some- thing -- in England could use drugs only in hospitals. Well, I don’t think he’s right, we’ve had a cable from Europe during the course of the afternoon telling us that in fact a whole series of drugs is permitted without supervision in England. This is the cable I got from the British Optical Association:",
"WE CAN CONFIRM THAT UK OPHTHALMIC OPTICIANS (OPTOMETRISTS) ARE PERMITTED TO OBTAIN APPROPRIATE OPHTHALMIC DRUGS FOR PRACTICE USE -- CYCLOPLEGICS MYDRIATICS, MIOTICS, LOCAL ANAESTHETICS, STAINING AGENTS, PROPHYLACTIC ANTI-INFECTIVE PREPARATIONS, DECONGESTANTS. FURTHER INFORMATION FOLLOWING.",
"I just wanted to have some kind of confirmation of that fact and I have it now.",
"Another issue that was misconstrued and touched upon very briefly by a couple of the members was the restriction of the right of prayer for healing. I’m sure many members in this House received many letters in the last few weeks from people who felt quite properly that we had withdrawn a right implied in the first draft of this legislation. This was not so, because those people who believe in the power of prayer to heal have been permitted to do so without being accused of practising medicine under the Drugless Practitioners Act for a number of years. This Act is still in force. In time it will become a part of the Health Disciplines Act, and I can assure the hon. members that it is our intention to enshrine the right now granted to the Christian Scientists and others to retain their right to practise by prayer if they see fit.",
"On the definitions, a lot of discussion centred upon our vagueness in some cases and our precision in others. We started out with at attempt to get a precise definition for medicine. From that, of course, sprang the problem I just alluded to, the problem of the Christian Scientists, because in order to get a precise definition of medicine we had to exclude people curing by prayer, and therefore we put the exclusion in. But we came to the conclusion that medicine as such was in fact undefinable; therefore, we left that undefined except in a most general sense and defined the parts of medicine that other allied health disciplines were allowed to practise rather than defining the whole. I think that explains the precision.",
"Let’s go on to pharmacy. The statement that we didn’t define pharmacy is true to some degree, but we defined “drug,” and a pharmacist is a person who dispenses a drug under certain conditions. If one looks at the definition of “drug,” one will see that in effect we have defined a pharmacist.",
"I would also like to try to scan the remarks that other people have made. I was impressed by the thoughtfulness of the member for Downsview’s approach to the legal problems and, as I said earlier, I intend to follow them. We’ve leaned very heavily on the McRuer principles. I often wonder how we spell McRuer and if it begins with the letter G, because we certainly put very heavy emphasis on any of the principles that have been enunciated by this gentleman, who has had a very profound effect upon Ontario law.",
"I think, though, that most of the comments made by the various speakers were on particular parts and are better suited for discussion later.",
"The member for Sudbury talked about the apparent attempt to exclude the denture therapist -- or the denturist, as he said -- from the present legislation. There would hardly be any use in delaying this particular piece of legislation until such time as a policy is or is not changed on the practice of denture therapy."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. E. W. Martel (Sudbury East)",
"text": [
"The minister was going to announce that about three weeks ago."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"Therefore, this bill remains the way the present laws permit practice. And I can assure the hon. member that if any change is made it can and will be amended quite quickly."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"What’s delaying that?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"Really, the assistance of the hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deacon",
"text": [
"If the minister wants us to help with anything, we will."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"Yes, they can help me by shutting up."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"Is that parliamentary language?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"I’m sorry but I sat so close to the hon. member for Sudbury East for so long that some of it has rubbed off."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"What rubbed off?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"I realize the member is a teacher of English and some of those better phrases have kept popping up."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)",
"text": [
"Did the minister get that settled this morning?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"That was a strike."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"That was not a strike."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"That was a pseudo-strike."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"That was a threatened illegal strike."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"If members will bear with me for a second, one of the things, I suppose, I could say about the member for Ottawa Centre, if I got any message from him, is that he doesn’t like the College of Nurses. He also said something about the laws of chance and their effects. The laws of chance play strange tricks and he is an obvious example of them.",
"In any case, I can assure members that he has missed the point. The health disciplines bill was given its present types of appeal simply to assist the kinds of people he referred to today. I can assure him that is one of the more important points.",
"I appreciated the support I had from the Leader of the Opposition on this kind of thing. I believe we are taking very positive steps in allowing the individual who has been denied the right to practise an appeal mechanism over and above the college. If, in fact, any given college has been a bit restrictive in its registration practices in the past, it has been because there hasn’t been an appeal mechanism.",
"With an appeal mechanism, one wouldn’t have to take groups of applicants through because groups of applicants can’t be judged; the individual must be judged. Once the precedent is set, I can assure members that registration committees of colleges will be very prone to accept those people whose appeals would likely be granted.",
"I think it will eliminate the lands of practice he has alluded to or has alleged have existed. He knows also --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"Why make such unkind remarks about him when he was right?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"I am not making any comment about his correct or incorrect approach. I think he realizes that as parliamentary assistant I worked quite hard with that college to get them to loosen up a bit.",
"Section 113 has been alluded to a number of times by speakers. That concerns the right of an optometrist and an optician to work in the same place of business; it’s the retail merchant clause.",
"One of the speakers, I believe it was the member for Riverdale, spoke at great length about being afraid that if one went to Eaton’s one was served by Imperial Optical instead of by Eaton’s. He has missed the point entirely of the question at issue and I think it is one issue we still have to give some thought to. The issue is simply, can an optometrist and an optician work in one place of business, at one time, for another master and still retain let’s say, his professional discretion?",
"I think, Mr. Speaker, those are all the points I would like to make on this bill at this point in time. I am sure we will have lots of very useful comments from the members opposite and from the disciplines themselves during the standing committee phase.",
"Motion agreed to: second reading of the bill."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The bill is to go to standing committee.",
"Agreed."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Clerk of the House",
"text": [
"The 17th order, House in committee of supply."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)",
"text": [
"What are we going to do in the committee of supply?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)",
"text": [
"Give me a suggestion."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Let us adjourn and we will go to the dinner."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I sense a consensus that the House should adjourn and accordingly I will take that course.",
"For Thursday, I would like to say we will return to the consideration of the estimates of the Minister of Energy (Mr. McKeough)."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Before the adjournment, is the minister able to give us an indication when we will return to the land speculation bill?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"Monday."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Monday next?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"Yes. On Thursday I will give him, hopefully, all of next week’s arrangements.",
"Hon. Mr. Winkler moves the adjournment of the House.",
"Motion agreed to.",
"The House adjourned at 5:30 o’clock, p.m."
]
}
] |
April 30, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-30/hansard
|
LAND SPECULATION TAX ACT (CONTINUED)
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. P. G. Givens (York-Forest Hill)",
"text": [
"Yes, Mr. Speaker, I would like to make some comments on the bill that perhaps have not been mentioned in passing by previous speakers. I feel some of the previous speakers have been too critical of this bill -- that perhaps this bill is more generous than might have been expected of this government. It is certainly more generous than the bill having to do with the Parkway Belt legislation. There the government simply went ahead and said that those who lie in the path of the Parkway Belt are not going to be expropriated for a specific purpose, such as a highway or for hydro; that their land would be zoned for agricultural purposes forever and a day; and that where land across the way was worth $10,000 or $15,000 or $20,000 an acre, then this land hereafter shall be worth $500 an acre.",
"So this bill is more generous in that at least you are only charging 50 per cent -- and that on top of the income tax which the federal government is charging of another 50 per cent. Assuming that you can take the 50 per cent off the top and deduct it as an expense, this is only 86 per cent. So it is very big hearted of the government.",
"I wish I could sit in a Conservative caucus. I wonder what some of the Tory backbenchers do when they sit in caucus and see some of this legislation that is being put through by the Conservative government in order to perpetuate itself in office."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. Shulman (High Park)",
"text": [
"They didn’t see this piece. They were told about it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"They weren’t told about it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"No."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"Government by decree."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"How awful."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Members of the backbenchers speaking up?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"Now, if the purpose of the bill is to --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"They were more upset than we were, believe it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"Yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. Gaunt (Huron-Bruce)",
"text": [
"I can well imagine that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"There don’t appear to be any manifestations of this protest as they hold on for dear life. Perhaps that’s why another couple of parliamentary assistants were appointed a couple of days ago. They are all getting something extra out of the trough; maybe that’s why they want to maintain themselves.",
"Seriously, if the minister is doing this for the purpose of lowering the cost of housing, he has been told over and over again by other speakers he is not accomplishing this. This bill is not accomplishing putting serviced lots on the line or increasing the supply of serviced lots for building in order to lower the price of housing, either for rental or for purchase. The minister is not accomplishing that.",
"If he is doing it for the purposes of lowering the fires of inflation and he is making this particular attack on one sector having to do with land, why is he confining himself to this kind of land? Why has he excluded industrial and commercial land? It is obvious that money is going to flow from this kind of speculative activity to speculative activity in industrial and commercial land, and that the prices of goods and services, as a result of the price of industrial and commercial land increasing, will be passed along to the ultimate consumer as well. Why didn’t he do it in one fell swoop and increase the fight against inflation; because he is not accomplishing the purpose of lowering the price of housing?",
"I cannot for the life of me understand why housing minister after housing minister refuses to take part or refuses to embark on a policy of a massive loan of a half a billion or a billion dollars for the purpose of the government going out and servicing land. This is one function which the government could perform better than any private industry, namely going out and servicing land; putting in the sewers and the watermains and whatever else has to be done for the purpose of servicing land in order to bring down the cost of serviced lots."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. A. Renwick (Riverdale)",
"text": [
"No question about it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"This the government refuses to do for year after year. This Minister of Housing (Mr. Handleman), like previous housing ministers, gets up and renders lip service to this business of providing serviced lots and does not do so. He makes the noises and goes through the motions and the government refuses to do so. Instead of this, the minister comes in with this --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Six thousand serviced lots."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"-- grandstanding bill in which he purports to catch the fish, the people who are speculating in land. He says he is going to raise $25 million, and I say there will be grass growing down Yonge St. if he raises $25 million this year from this tax, because I don’t think he’ll do it. The tax is punitive. He’ll be catching a few fish but I don’t think he will --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon (Leader of the Opposition)",
"text": [
"I understand one can find grass on Yonge St.",
"Interjection by an hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"They’ve rolled it up. They had it for the mall but they rolled it up.",
"It’s punitive. He may catch a few fish in this way but he will not be moving more lots onto the market for building purposes.",
"One of the reasons people are buying land --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. A. K. Meen (Minister of Revenue)",
"text": [
"Where is the member’s proof?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"-- is there is a flight from the paper dollar. There’s a loss of confidence in the paper dollar; the smart money is escaping from the paper dollar and they are buying tangibles. They are buying land; they are buying gold; they are buying art treasures; they are buying jewels; they are buying commodities.",
"Interjection by an hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"They are buying what?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Ruston (Essex-Kent)",
"text": [
"That was the member for High Park. They are buying bean futures."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Gaunt",
"text": [
"He’s not for sale."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"He’s only one representative of many."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"I command a high price in this country."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"He is buying commodity futures. He doesn’t fool around."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"There is a flight from the paper dollar. My guess is, and this will be borne out in two or three years, that the people who have land -- not the in and outers; they will go by the board; the guys who go in and put down $2,000 for a deposit and won’t close their deals; there are not very many of them -- the other people will sit on their land because there is this flight from the paper dollar. The fires of inflation will increase because of the pressures in the world market and because the banana republics which have bananas to sell are going to be sitting on them.",
"Those who have commodities to sell, the cocoa producers, the coffee producers, the sugar producers and the oil producers, are waiting for the prices to go up. They have discovered there is a world shortage in these commodities; these are the factors that are firing the fires of inflation in this country. This is why people are buying into land and this is why the inflation on land will increase; and this tax isn’t going to catch them, because they are going to pass it on to the ultimate purchasers.",
"We have already dealt with the problem of small builders who won’t be able to function under this legislation. The minister hasn’t either confirmed or denied the allegations made by my colleague, the member for Downsview (Mr. Singer), as to whether, indeed, he has 83 amendments or he doesn’t have 83 amendments to present."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"He hasn’t got any amendments."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I will confirm it; I don’t have a total of 83, even in expectation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"Does he have half that number?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I think not."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"But he has indicated this afternoon he has three very wide fields of activity which he is considering, namely the field having to do with the builders’ lots; the field having to do with rental activity, on which he wasn’t too clear as to whether he was going to listen to the representations that have been made to him as to whether he was going to make amendments to those sections. Those are very serious fields, and we don’t know what is going to happen there.",
"I want to ask the minister this: What is speculation? Speculation is risking very little to make a whole lot. I am wondering what the Conservative backbenchers are thinking about the person who is a farmer and who has owned a farm for 25 or 30 or 40 or 50 or more years, and who has been watching everybody around him sell off land and watching the prices of the land around him rising from $5,000 to $10,000 to $15,000 and $20,000 an acre, and now he is caught by this tax. Do they consider that man a speculator? Do they think he is deserving of the punitive aspect of this legislation?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. H. Worton (Wellington South)",
"text": [
"Come on, tell us."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"I want to ask some of the backbenchers, about the prudent investor, the doctor, the lawyer, the businessman, who for 20 years was told he had to have a hedge against inflation, so he has been depriving himself for 20 or 25 years of spending his money on some of the finer things of life and he has bought himself 25 or 50 or 100 acres of land. He has been paying the taxes, and he has been paying the principal and interest on the mortgage. Is this man a speculator in the same sense as the guy who put down a small deposit six months ago and is going to skim off a big profit? The minister is treating him in the same way?",
"What about the widow who inherited an estate five years ago, inherited some rent-producing property, or inherited some vacant land to which she has caused no improvements to be made? She has been told by her lawyer and she has been told by her accountant to hold onto it because all around her they have seen people whose land has appreciated in value. Is she a speculator in this sense?",
"The minister shakes his head “No.” Well what protection is he affording these people who aren’t speculators, but who were investing in the future of Canada? One of his own cabinet ministers -- who is no longer a cabinet minister -- said he did the same a few years ago, he invested in the future of Canada. What confidence can anybody have in this country when the government comes in with this kind of legislation?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"He said he wished he had bought more."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"They are benefitting nobody with it, because this isn’t the land that is going to come on the market for people to build houses on or to build apartments on.",
"There is another question that I want to ask the minister that he hasn’t dealt with at all. We are in an inflationary spiral now; we hope that with the passing of time these fires will be dampened and that they will go down, and that the acceleration will be decelerated, but once the minister puts on tax legislation he cannot very well reverse it. What is he going to do five or six years or 10 years from now when he wants to reverse this? How is he going to do that?",
"How is he going to be able to accomplish that? What is he going to do with respect to people who are in the middle class or who are business people or professional people, who reach the age of 50 and want to plan their retirement portfolio or who want to plan their estates, who happen to own some real estate and who are thinking in terms of leaving their prospective widow or their dependent children a piece of real estate for their future, either revenue producing or non-revenue producing? How can they plan their estates now in the light of this tax which the minister is imposing on the books, this tax which does not benefit the people he is thinking of benefitting, by lowering the cost of housing?",
"We can all be in agreement that he is not going to lower the cost of housing, because he is not bringing low-cost land onto the market at all. He is dealing with raw land, raw land which won’t come on the market for at least another five or 10 years because it cannot be serviced at this particular time. So we are agreed on that.",
"So the government is not helping them and the minister is not going to be really bringing down inflation, because he is doing nothing about price controls. He is doing nothing about wage controls. He is doing nothing about controlling the inflationary factors in other sectors of the economy. All that it has done is that the government has taken this particular spectacular sector and it has come in with a spectacular piece of legislation which appears to be dealing with something that’s inflaming the economy, but which in fact is only one particular minor factor in the economy and nothing else.",
"Now how can people plan their activities in the future with respect to this tax when the minister himself, doesn’t know what he is doing? He hasn’t made up his mind with respect to the various amendments he has indicated he is going to bring in or that he may not bring in; he hasn’t told us what he is going to do. We are debating this thing in the dark.",
"So, Mr. Speaker, it’s a sad day when we deal with a piece of legislation which is of such far-reaching consequences. I would never expect that a true blue Conservative government would bring such legislation into this province because of the effect that it’s going to have on the whole economic picture of this province.",
"It will have no beneficial effect that anybody can see in bringing down the price of housing. It will have no beneficial effect as far as bringing in revenue is concerned, because the minister himself has admitted it isn’t going to bring in a great deal of revenue and that that isn’t its fundamental purpose.",
"So what is the purpose of this particular piece of legislation? It is to indicate to the public that the government is doing something for them; to indicate to the public that it is trying to stoke the fires of inflation; to indicate to the public that it is trying to bring down the cost of housing -- when in effect it is not doing that at all.",
"All the government is doing is playing with dynamite. I suggest, with respect, that when one is playing with dynamite and playing with percussion caps, they should only do so when they know what they are doing, I don’t think that the minister or the government realizes what they are doing in this respect. I think the government will rue the day it brought in this particular piece of legislation, because it is fraught with very serious consequences."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The member for Sandwich-Riverside."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. F. A. Burr (Sandwich-Riverside)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, like everyone else in this group, I support the principle of discouraging the type of rampant speculation that has been permitted in this province for some years, especially because of its inflationary impact on our economy.",
"Speculators who add nothing to the property in which they are speculating can expect very little sympathy. But I should like to know whether the ministry has considered the effect of this bill on that group of people whom I shall call the home rejuvenators. These are people who buy old houses, old homes, renovate them and resell them, making a modest profit in return for their own labour.",
"In Toronto the last year or so they would have reaped the benefits of inflation and the label “speculators” might possibly be justified in some measure. But in Windsor, where house prices have not yet gone wild, the home rejuvenators have not deserved in any way to be labelled as speculators -- at least those who are doing their own work.",
"From what I have been able to learn, the home rejuvenators in Windsor will go quietly out of business next month. These men constitute one of the genuine free enterprise efforts that produce a socially desirable end product, namely better housing. It will be a great pity if this group is wiped out.",
"I am sure this is not the intention of the minister or of the government, but this will happen if the bill means what many of these small businessmen think it means. I have received representations on behalf of some of these home rejuvenators and I should like the minister to tell me whether these fears are justified, based on a case study I shall relate.",
"This is an actual example, which I should like the minister to hear, and on which I would appreciate his comments. I shall go slowly so he and his advisers may make notes and give me the answers I am seeking.",
"Two Windsor partners earn their living by buying old houses at the rate of about 10 or 12 a year. They renovate and resell these houses --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Doesn’t the member want to do this in committee?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member is asking for an explanation of the principle."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Burr",
"text": [
"At present, these two men are buying an old house and the closing date was April 26, well after the April 9 deadline mentioned in the Act. The cost of the property is $26,500, of which the value of the land is $8,750 and that of the building is $17,750, if the value is pro-rated according to the assessment. The house, as you see Mr. Speaker, is about two-thirds of the total value, about 67 per cent. The planned renovations will cost $1,455. Because the renovations represent only 5% per cent of the total value of the buildings and the land, this property will not be exempted under the Act.",
"This work will take the two partners a full two weeks. They estimate the value of their labour at $1,000. That is, $250 a week each. According to their accountant, income tax regulations do not permit an assessment of ones own labour as a cost that improves the value of the property.",
"Maintenance of the property, which includes insurance, three months of municipal taxes and three months of mortgage interest, comes to $523. Legal fees and real estate commissions on resale will total $1,730. This gives an adjusted cost of $30,208. Counting the cost of trucking, tools, office expenses and accounting, a total of $250, and the value of their own labour of $1,000, this gives them a real cost of $31,458.",
"The estimated resale value is $34,000. By subtracting from this resale amount of $34,000 the adjusted cost of $30,208, we get a taxable value of $3,792. The speculation tax of 50 per cent on this will be $1,896. The partners must pay federal and provincial income tax at a 40.45 per cent rate. On the full profit of $3,542, that is $3,792 less $250 for trucking, tools, etcetera, the income tax at the probable rate of 40.45 per cent is $1,433. This gives a combined total tax -- comprised of speculation tax and income tax -- of $3,329, leaving $213 as a profit, if one can call it that, tor two full weeks of work and worry for two grown men with families to support.",
"There is, of course, the added risk that the anticipated sale price of $34,000 may not be forthcoming.",
"Now, if the speculation tax is allowed as an expense deductible for income tax purposes, a point on which I should like clarification from the minister, then the partners would make $980 on their venture, involving at least two weeks of hard work plus all the time spent with real estate agents, lawyers, insurance agents and all the other worries involved. This is not enough for the contribution they will have made to the community in upgrading or revitalizing or rescuing a deteriorating property which is badly needed for providing adequate housing in Windsor.",
"Without the speculation tax, the partners would have shared $2,109 for their enterprise in rejuvenating this property. This covers a period of two weeks of intensive hard labour and probably an equal length of time in what might be called administration and planning. If the two partners share this amount, they make $1,060 each for a month’s activity. This is not what one could classify as a speculator’s rip-off, Mr. Speaker. Certainly this is not what the minister has in mind.",
"To sum up this case history: (1) Without the speculation tax, the two partners doing their own work would have made $2,109 in the process of buying this house and land for $26,500 and selling it for $34,000; (2) if they are subject to the speculation tax, their net gain for their work will amount to only",
"$980; and (3) if, as they fear, the speculation tax is not a deductible expense for income tax purposes, their net return for all their effort and the risks they have run will be only $213.",
"Now I have a second case study, but I shall not give the details, just the fact that the property cost $27,375 and they expect to sell it for $38,000. The summary for this property is as follows: If there were no speculation tax, the partners would share $1,452 for their months’ effort. This involves renovations of over $5,000, a very poor return for their enterprise and the risks they have run. If the speculation tax is deductible for income tax purposes, then they would share only $622. If the speculation tax is, as their accountant reads the Act, not deductible, then they share only $57 for their four weeks’ hard labour in carrying out renovations of $5,350 plus providing about $2,000 worth of labour."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Is the minister getting all this?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Burr",
"text": [
"Now whether the speculation tax is deductible or not, it’s obvious that these partners --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. W. Hodgson (York North)",
"text": [
"Watch him, Stephen -- he is going to be for free enterprise --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Good policy."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Burr",
"text": [
"-- are not going to renovate any more properties at the relatively moderate margin at which they have been working. The risks are far too great and the rewards are far too small.",
"Society will lose the very worthwhile work which they have been doing if the speculation tax is applied to this group of entrepreneurs. And surely, Mr. Speaker, it is not the purpose of the government to put these home renovators out of business.",
"If the partners were allowed to add the value of their own labour, $1,000, to the cost of the renovation of that first house, $1,455, we should have almost the required 20 per cent that would enable the Act to exempt them. Another $300 worth of renovations and labour would then enable these renovators to be exempted from the speculation tax.",
"If this is what the minister agrees is fair, then the bill should make it quite clear that the renovators’ own labour can be considered part of the 20 per cent required to exempt the property.",
"Another suggestion, perhaps an alternative to counting the renovator’s own labour as part of the 20 per cent, would be to make the 20 per cent required improvement apply to the building alone and not the building plus land combined.",
"Mr. Speaker I should appreciate, when the time comes, the minister’s comments on this aspect of the principle of the bill as it would affect the home renovators or home rejuvenators."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The member for York North."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. W. Hodgson",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker I’d like to speak a short time on Bill 25. I’d like to say at the outset that I agree with the principle of the bill. The only thing that I would disagree with is that it is about two years too late coming in.",
"But I’d like to share the concern of the member for Downsview, plus the member for Riverdale, for the small developer. The small developer in the area I come from is the backbone of the house building industry."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"The small builder, not the small developer."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. W. Hodgson",
"text": [
"Small builder, excuse me, I’m glad the member for York-Forest Hill corrected me. It is the small builder who is the backbone of our community. I would say that in a large area like Metropolitan Toronto he does contribute, but not as much as he does outside of big metropolitan areas.",
"I would ask the minister to seriously consider an amendment to the bill that would protect and place the small builder in a competitive position with the large developer. That is my first point.",
"The other thing I am concerned about is farm properties. As it is outlined by the bill now, a farmer could farm his farm for a lifetime -- he could be a second generation farmer -- but April 9 is D-Day. If he sells for any other purpose except farming he will be penalized by the speculative bill."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Even if he sells for farming."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. W. Hodgson",
"text": [
"No, not necessarily for farming, the bill provides that if it is kept in farming he won’t be penalized. I am sure there are a lot of people throughout the Province of Ontario and in this Legislature who agree with me. If it had been a family farm and a farmer has conscientiously farmed his farm for 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 years, he should be able to sell it for whatever the market value is -- whether it be sold for house building or for any other purpose. He shouldn’t be penalized at the end of that time. He has done his duty to the Province of Ontario in providing cheap food. Not only the Province of Ontario but the Dominion of Canada. I’d ask the minister to take a second look. This shouldn’t be. The evaluation day as set on April 9, which I mentioned as D-day, it --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"He should withdraw the bill and save us the trouble."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. W. Hodgson",
"text": [
"It should be considered in terms of the number of years he has farmed that farm. You have a good criteria to go by as set by the Minister of Agriculture and Food (Mr. Stewart), in the case of grants. If he has produced the maximum of $3,000 a year he qualifies for 50 per cent of his taxes, and that’s not too hard in this day.",
"The third point on which I would like clarification is that if the land is used for industrial or commercial development why is it also exempt from the tax? Maybe there is a farm outside of some of our smaller communities in agricultural use today and it could be developed into commercial or industrial use tomorrow -- it could be rezoned. If it is rezoned by the municipality will it be exempt?",
"These are just three of the points I want clarified, not only for my region but throughout rural Ontario. I would like the minister to consider these points I’ve made here this evening. When you come back into the Legislature on third reading with your amendments, I hope these are included. Thank you very much Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. Leader of the Opposition."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Just withdraw the bill and put some unserviced land --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I want to speak in favour of the principle of the bill, which is to tax unconscionable profits in land speculation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"There is nothing about un- conscionable profits. It is to stabilize land and housing prices."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"If we’re going to have a rational approach to our parliamentary procedure, I can’t see why it isn’t within the ken of reasonable people to realize that the principle of this bill is to tax these un- conscionable profits."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"I think it is to stabilize land and housing prices."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Yes, well the hon. member can establish the principle to suit his own particular requirement."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"The Treasurer (Mr. White) stated the principle of the bill."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Well I see the principle of the bill as a tax on unconscionable profits, and I’m very much concerned with the way these profits have been increasing. Economic experts, and even amateurs like the member for Riverdale, can with their incisive minds cut to the core of all of these problems for the edification of anybody who cares to listen --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"We tried to do that this afternoon."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"But still, Mr. Speaker, I’m sure you are aware that even the best economists --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"There is an unconscionable --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"-- and even those people who, by stringing together the platitudes of the discipline to which they adhere, still cannot explain the fantastic inflationary expansion which is ruining the land market in every respect and the housing market from the standpoint of those people who want to provide themselves with accommodation; and even to buy farmland for the production of food rather than for speculation.",
"One can often purchase property, ostensibly a farm, or purchase a home, ostensibly a place to live in, and find that its price has no relationship whatsoever to either of those purposes, but is related only to its resale value. This is surely something that this bill, in principle, can at least affect if not completely control.",
"There was a time when the widows and orphans we’ve been hearing about so much in this debate, if they had a few dollars, were advised by some people, I suppose, to put it into some kind of a revenue-producing property; that dear little old fourplex we have been hearing about so much in the debate this afternoon.",
"But there was also a time when they were advised to invest their money and their savings, and perhaps, their legacy, in the development of our country and our natural resources -- they were even advised to buy savings bonds and things like that. We have found that the policy of the government of Canada, in Mr. Benson’s time --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"That was a poor investment too."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"-- very properly imposed a capital gains tax on stocks and a provision that is known among the experts as the grossing-up dividend provision, which has driven people out of that sort of an investment and basically into investment on land. This was, if not the main thrust towards land investment, one of the things that began the turn-away from the stock market, the bonds, other debentures, even savings bonds; and directed people’s attention to real estate as an investment and as a “hedge against inflation.”",
"In other words, those changes in the tax laws of Canada, if anything directed people into this sort of investment -- and I’m talking about the widows and orphans, as well as those people who are smart operators and know how to turn a fast buck."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Very few widows and orphans own any land in the Province of Ontario that we are talking about tonight."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Yes. Well, I’ve just been treated to an extensive dissertation on either a widow or an orphan owning a property that is being developed and improved. Now, I think that was one of the arguments from one of the hon. member’s colleagues, and obviously it was from one of mine.",
"I’m not saying for a moment we should not be concerned about their investments, just the way I can remember the hon. member who is so irritated because I don’t happen to agree with him in this --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. P. D. Lawlor (Lakeview)",
"text": [
"Just who is the hon. member mad at?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"I get the impression he is irritated. I’m not irritated."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"I find the hon. member irritating at times. I really do."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"That doesn’t make me irritated."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"No, it doesn’t make the Leader of the Opposition right either."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"I can well recall the hon. member’s concern when large numbers of people, mostly pensioners, lost their investments because they had decided to invest it in Prudential Finance at the fantastic rate of seven per cent. I can remember him emoting to full galleries about his knowledge of the economic situation at that time -- unfortunately, to little or no avail."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"How right we were!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Yes, and to no avail. Mr. Speaker, after those changes in the federal tax legislation, the direction toward investment in land began at an accelerated rate and has been accelerating ever since. It has now somehow taken on a momentum that I say to you cannot be explained by even the most erudite economist. It is similar to the same kind of weird investment infatuation that we have read about down through history, which has no relationship whatsoever to the actual value of the property concerned but is an investment for the sake of resale rather than use, whether it is farm property or housing property.",
"Mr. Speaker, when you think of people shelling out $60,000 for a fifth-rate townhouse, you must realize that these investments are for something other than to provide a living facility. Speculators are buying houses throughout Ontario and turning them over at $10,000 profit before the first sale closes. They are buying everything they can get their hooks on. Houses that were built in 1972 and sold for $25,000 are now selling for $45,000. Lot prices have escalated to the point where their resale value has gone up by factors of 10, 25, and in some cases even 100.",
"If the farmer gets an opportunity to sell his farm, which two years ago he valued at $35,000 to $45,000, why shouldn’t he sell it when somebody comes along and offers him $100,000 and, when that is turned down, then offers him $150,000 or $200,000? It doesn’t seem to make any difference whatsoever what the asking price is because of the fever that has got into the minds and the hearts of those people who are turning over property for a quick profit.",
"I support the principle of this bill in that it will tax that quick profit, with these two reservations! I believe that the tax should be 100 per cent on these unconscionable and speculative profits and I do not agree with what the minister has set forward as his designation of a profiteer or a speculator.",
"I do not intend to go over the various classifications that have been brought to his attention in the past. I am sorry that the Minister of Agriculture and Food is not in the House, Mr. Speaker, because he almost always is for these debates. The idea that a farm that is an operating concern should be subject to the additional tax as if it were a speculative sale is supportable only if that land is eventually going to be subject to the unconscionable profits that we have seen in the past before April 9, and I say to the House, no doubt, after April 9 as well because of the inadequacies in the administrative features of the bill.",
"There should be some means within the mind of the minister and those advising him, and I must admit that I am not one who can give him the direct advice that perhaps he seeks in this regard --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"We tried to this afternoon."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Yes, I know. The member for Riverdale not only tries but he does it without end. It is too bad nobody ever listens to him, not even his colleagues."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Ruston",
"text": [
"That is the story of his life."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"The redone Robert Nixon!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"The idea of a farm being passed on without being subject to this tax as long as it is to some relative seems to me to be irrelevant."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"He is being obtuse."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"It seems to me to be irrelevant that the law should, in fact, require that the land stay in agricultural production and, as long as it does, should not be subject to this special tax which is designed to cream off unconscionable profits.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"As soon as it is sold for developmental purposes, that is the time to tax the profits. I personally do not believe that we should support the exemption of the taxing base within a family, but rather we should support the exemption on the basis of payment of this tax as long as it stays in viable agricultural production. The last thing we want to do, surely, is artificially to increase the cost of land, which is going to turn up by the same token as an increase in the cost of food. The same objection is expressed in what the member for Riverdale considers to be the deep flaw in the principle of the bill which does not permit him to support its concept and that is that the additional cost will turn up in the cost of housing.",
"This is, of course, regrettable and it is a serious matter indeed. Surely, as we examine the bill in its provisions there can be means put forward for example, to see that the small builder is not going to be forced out of business. It is estimated there are 2,400 building companies in Ontario which build 25 houses a year or less. The minister has indicated that he is aware of the problems inherent in the administration of the bill -- or the features of the provisions of the bill -- and I regret deeply that he did not respond to the comments from the opposition and at least let us have a look at those amendments which the minister has said will correct that unfortunate situation.",
"I believe that if we placed a 100 per cent tax on speculative land profits and had a bill which would define, in an acceptable way, what speculation actually is -- basically land which does not have improvements on it -- the price of farmland would decrease to the point where the farmer could afford to stay on the farm.",
"One of the things that has concerned the ministers of agriculture both provincially and federally is that the commitment of capital in the provision of land has simply got out of the reach of the working farmer. It’s within the reach of the person who has foreign capital or his own savings to invest in an escalating market but for a farmer who is prepared to work the land and produce food, hopefully at a profit for himself and his family, if built into that is the cost of land which is artificially inflated because of the opportunity for speculative profits, obviously it is not going to work in the best interests of the consumer or the farmer.",
"It is a deep flaw in the bill. It is a flaw with which the minister has to come to grips and the member for York North made a good point in that regard. It has specific application in this province, probably more than in any other part of Canada, because we have a third of the class 1 and 2 arable land of the whole nation. To tax that in such a way that it is going to be forced out of viable farming is a very serious matter indeed.",
"I was concerned that the valuation day was set at April 9. Some of the huge speculative advances in value had already taken place and it would not necessarily have had to be a tax applied retroactively if valuation day had been established at an earlier date. The rate of inflation of farm properties, housing properties and development properties in all parts of this province had been going at that time for many months, completely out of any realistic control or any relationship to the actual value of the real estate under consideration.",
"I would say to you, Mr. Speaker, that it is strange that a Conservative government would bring in a bill taxing profits in this way. I have no trouble supporting it because I believe it is a principle which should command the support of Liberals and anyone else who agrees with our particular position in this regard. I would say to you, Mr. Speaker, that it is essential the government bring forward legislation which is going to direct investment away from the compelling attractions of real estate for its own profit rather than its own viable use.",
"I would say again, for those who would choose to listen to the argument that the principle of the bill does do that, that the provisions of the bill in detail are flawed and my colleagues have pointed that out to you, sir, and will do so when we examine the bill in committee. Amendments are possible and the minister himself has indicated that he has some. There will be amendments from our party as well which I hope will do away with the serious shortcomings in the provisions of the bill as it is presently before us."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"It there any member from the NDP who wishes to speak? The member for High Park."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I would like to rise to condemn this bill but not the idea behind it, which was worthy. I’m sorry the thinker of the bill isn’t here. He has kept very carefully away from it; I don’t blame him too much. It is a great idea, as so many of his ideas have been, but badly flawed. In any case, I shall direct my remarks through you, sir, to the technician who has the responsibility for steering it through the House."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. F. Young (Yorkview)",
"text": [
"He’s in Europe."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Is he in Europe? Oh."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lawlor",
"text": [
"He’s going to make a speech in Paris."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Good reason for him to be away. I want to tell you a story about a doctor, Mr. Speaker, who some 23 years ago opened up a practice out in west Toronto. He had no idea of speculating in land at that time but he thought he needed an office to practise in, so he bought a little house, and he practised there. He’s practised there all this time. I know him well, and --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"He’s the member’s best friend."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Well, perhaps, in a way."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"He is also his alter ego."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Even his ego."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"I understand from this doctor that he is thinking of retiring from this particular line of work, and no longer will be needing his building after next year. I should imagine at that time that instead of becoming a slum landlord he would prefer to sell the building. That man is going to get caught in your speculation land tax. He is going to have to be paying the 50 per cent tax, and any increase in value in that time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"If he plants a crop of soybeans he can probably evade the tax."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Well, I am sure the man can pay the tax, but --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"That is the next thing they are going to tax."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"I am telling this story to illustrate the very tiny thought that went into this bill. Is that really what you want to do? Do they really want to catch a guy like that?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"Yep."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Do they really --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. L. M. Reilly (Eglinton)",
"text": [
"I hope not."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Why not?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"That is one of those real speculators that the Leader of the Opposition was talking about."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"This is going to happen. You are going to catch this type of person, the man who has no intention of speculating in land or in buildings. Because every professional who has bought his own little spot to practise in is going to get caught in this when the time comes to retire. You are going --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. E. R. Good (Waterloo North)",
"text": [
"Isn’t it a commercial building?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"It is not a commercial building."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Put a drugstore in the bottom."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Maybe if he put a drugstore in it he could get it exempted."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"You mean you haven’t got one there?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. A. Grossman (Provincial Secretary for Resource Development)",
"text": [
"He will live off the rent."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"There’s not a doctor I know who doesn’t have a drugstore on the first floor."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"I don’t want to repeat the things I said on the Land Transfer Tax Act, because the two bills were brought in together. They had the same birth, and I happen to know the hour it took place. A gentleman confided in me. It was at 3 a.m. that he woke up from a dream and said, “My God, have I got an idea. This is going to be the budget for this year.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"3:10 a.m."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"He came rushing down to the office the next morning -- this man was a minister of the Crown, who I understand is not with us at the moment."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"He is having group therapy.",
"Mr. Shulman: He picked up the phone and phoned some other office here in the building, and he said, “Bill, have I got an idea. It is going to get us right off the hook.” I don’t know who he was talking to -- some fellow named Bill or Billy -- and Billy said: “Yeah, it better be good, better than the last one I hope.” And he said, “Yeah, this one has got no flaws in it. This one is really great.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"You don’t even have to turn down the thermostat."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"“It is going to look wonderful in the papers. It’s going to get those ‘furriners’ out of the country, who everybody thinks are taking advantage of us; and not only that, we are going to get the speculators. We will be able to get up at the budget time -- of course the budget was only 10 days away at the time; it was sort of a late blooming idea -- “We are going to be able to get up at budget time and by golly, are we going to have a vote-getter. Right across the province they are going to like it.”",
"This fellow Billy, Billy the Kid, whoever he is, said: “Gee, that sounds great.” Whatever that other fellow’s name is -- Johnny, Johnny. “Johnny come on over and tell me about it.”",
"This was how it all began. It was a dream. It may turn out to be nightmare before it’s finished, but it began as a beautiful dream. And the problem was exactly the same problem as occurred with the “furriner” tax. They didn’t give the experts enough time to draw it up.",
"Johnny said, “Look, we’ve got this great idea. Let’s get it drawn up in a hurry; and then we are going to really show those -- We’ll shut up the NDP because they keep screaming about these various things. And the Liberals will be so confused they will support us -- and oppose us -- they won’t know what they are doing. And we are going to have the whole press right across the country to cheer us, and by God, you could even have an election this October if you wanted to.”",
"Well, well, it sounded great --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Allan’s approved it too. Allan approved it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. S. Lewis (Scarborough West)",
"text": [
"When Ian said 100 per cent, that is what he was talking about."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"I must confess, Mr. Speaker, and I yield with as much grace as I can muster to the hon. minister, if I had been sitting there in that room, when the minister came in with his bubbly idea, and had it thrown at me very quickly, I too might have succumbed. Because let’s face it, these men didn’t have too much time to think about it. It was a last-minute thing, you know, “We can’t have one of these budgets where they say, *Oh, we are waiting until next year to bring in all the goodies.’ We have got to bring in something in the budget.” And, quite frankly, they did not have much to put in the budget this year."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"That’s right. They had very little going for them."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"It was a bit of a problem. They didn’t dare increase taxes and the little piddly taxes they were cutting were of such irrelevance -- Mr. Clean taxes and shoes under $30 and things like that -- they weren’t really affecting too many people."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Just get depressed."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"My shoes cost $24.95. That’s okay. I got them on sale."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. C. E. McIlveen (Oshawa)",
"text": [
"Honest Ed’s?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Honest Ed’s, yes. How did the member know"
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"In the fire?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Anyway, to come back, they brought in the bill, they did not give their people enough time to draw it up sensibly and the result is that now that the truth has dawned -- and it has dawned over there a little late -- what they have said is, “Don’t worry, we recognize the bill is flawed.” Be- cause suddenly their own people started coming to them. I know a few of them said, “For God’s sake, what have you done here? You are going to stop the building of houses; you are going to produce all sorts of other things,” which I will come to by and by, “rents are going to go up; building is going to stop because all the small people won’t be able to build, and they do most of the building.”",
"So the minister, with a little embarrassment -- but he handled it quite well, I must give him credit -- came in and said, “Don’t worry about those little tiny flaws. We haven’t had time to work it out, but we are going to bring in amendments to fix all that.” The opposition was curious as to what the amendments were going to be and said, “What are the amendments going to be?” and the minister drew himself up with as much dignity as he could muster and said, “I’m not going to tell you that, but we are working on it. Don’t you worry, you will see it all in due course.”",
"So, the Leader of the Opposition said, “Don’t you think we should see the amendments before we debate the bills so that we can debate them intelligently?” And the minister sort of decides, “We don’t want them to do that.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"The member is insulting people from Riverdale."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Actually, I must sympathize with the minister.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"I must have sympathy for the minister. It is not that he didn’t want us to try to debate it intelligently; he didn’t have the amendments made up. So he went back to the Treasurer and he said, “You’ve got me in a bit of a spot here. Get those damn amendments to me in a hurry.” And they are working like mad."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"The Treasurer is in Europe. He wants to keep the socialist hordes out of Paris."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Well, this is a bit of a problem. The brain -- the dreamer -- had gone to Europe. This is a little unfortunate. So they put all the lawyers to work on this issue and they are working like mad. They have drawn up the amendments now. They are drawn up. The trouble is, they don’t want to fall into the same --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Young",
"text": [
"Cesspool."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"-- cesspool, my colleague suggests -- cesspool as they did with the bill itself. So they have sent them out to other experts to get another opinion to make sure it is okay before they stumble.",
"All right. My sympathy to the minister. But what is wrong with the bill? Let’s just see. What is it that he’s trying to do? There seems to be two schools of thought around here as to what he is trying to do. The minister says he is trying to stabilize housing prices and land prices, I believe, and the member for Brant says he is trying to sweat the speculators. Whatever it is he is trying to do that unfortunately is not what he is doing. And I look at it with some amusement tinged with regret, because we are all in this same sinking ship together and as you go I am afraid we are going with you; country, province and all.",
"However, I am embarrassed to admit this, Mr. Speaker, but I have friends who are land speculators. I actually eat with them occasionally and some of them are actually not only --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. D. C. MacDonald (York South)",
"text": [
"Cheer up, the member hasn’t got as many as the minister."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Not only are they friends of mine but they are also advisers to the government. I had the pleasure, one evening not so long ago, of having dinner with three of these gentlemen and their lovely ladies. They were telling me of the chaotic phone calls and arguments that were taking place in the area surrounding the Prime Minister, his chief advisers, and their extreme unhappiness at the fact that --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"How is it that the leader of the NDP can’t associate in that milieu?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"I don’t move in those circles; that is a delegated responsibility. In our caucus we spread things around."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"It sure is. It is at arm’s length."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"As they pointed out to me, they said, “You know what is going to happen?” -- and I am now speaking of one of the largest landholders in Scarborough, perhaps the largest landholder in Scarborough."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"The member for Scarborough West?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"No, it is not him."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"But very close."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"He doesn’t live very far from the member though. He said, “You know, I own more undeveloped land in Scarborough than any other individual. I don’t build houses. I usually sell the land to builders. I don’t do much building. You know what they are forcing me to do? I’m just taking the land off the market. I am going to sit on it.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"He is going to find himself surprised."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"That is where the minister is kidding himself still."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"This man happens to be one of the richest, young, single, eligible bachelors in the city. Everybody knows who he is now."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"Is he male?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"And he happens to be a multi-millionaire. He said, “I can sit on that land for 10 or 15 years. I can outwait the Tories.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. Riddell (Huron)",
"text": [
"He only needs one year for that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"Don’t believe it. He is going to get a sore backside."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"He said: “There’s no rush. I own the land. I’ve got no mortgage against it. I’ve got it clear and free. I can develop it next year. I can subdivide it and sell it. Or I can develop it after this government or more likely after this minister goes.”",
"He said: “There’s no rush. But you know what it means? My land isn’t going to go on the market. And that means there’s going to be that much less land available in Scarborough. And that means that the land that does become available and is built on is going to have to sell for more for the simple reason of competition. There are going to be that many more people wanting those houses, because I’m going to build my share.”",
"And does this government know what price they are going to be in about a year and a half from now?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"The member should tell his friend to sit and wait -- he is in for a great surprise."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"I would like him to be surprised -- and I would like the minister to be right this time. But I fear the minister is wrong.",
"I’ve got in front of me a letter from the Metropolitan Hamilton Real Estate Board. This is a socialist organization which my colleagues have set up in Hamilton to promote the causes of the NDP. I believe they wrote all of us a letter pointing out the “minor flaws,” as they put it, in the Land Speculation Tax Act."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. V. M. Singer (Downsview)",
"text": [
"We all got the letter."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"We all got it, but no one so far has mentioned it in the debate."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"We are all counting on the member for High Park."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"The minister read it --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"We all read it, but perhaps the press should hear about it. Because there are one or two errors that the land -- why the heck did none of the members mention it if they all got the letter? I presume the answer is that they all got the letter, but I read mine. Well, all right. It’s a pity that so much mail comes to various people, but it apparently doesn’t filter through. Well, let’s give them a second chance so they can get it. Yes, all the members have it. Follow closely as I read."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Ruston",
"text": [
"Did the member agree with all of it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"No, I don’t agree with all of it, but they make some very good points. They make a few minor points here. Let me start:",
"“1. The publicity concerning this Act is misleading. It is being sold as a land speculation tax when in fact it is a land and residential dwelling tax and encompasses much more than raw land.",
"“2. At a time when it seems necessary to encourage new housing units, this tax effectively discourages the owning of units for rental other than by an Ontario Housing Corp.”",
"Well, stop and think what that is going to mean in just a few months."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"The member’s colleague from Riverdale made the point earlier."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Thank you very much. I am so impressed by the wisdom and the brilliance of my colleague from Riverdale, and have been for many years, that I try whenever he makes a point to repeat it, to give it a little more emphasis."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"The member for High Park has to repeat it because he is never here when the member for Riverdale speaks."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)",
"text": [
"Yes, he has to repeat it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. W. Ferrier (Cochrane South)",
"text": [
"Just like the member for Brant in Sudbury -- nobody thought he was there."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Why is it, Mr. Speaker, I’m being heckled only from the right and not from the government benches?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"The government benches are empty. They are not here.",
"Interjection by an hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, I am reading the instant Hansard of the member for Riverdale’s speech right now, and it is superb. It is superb."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Well, let it stand for itself and don’t repeat it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"The third point they make is that speculation isn’t always bad. It creates a market in real estate and produces liquidity.",
"Fourthly, they make the point that the member for York-Forest Hill made --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"The member for Riverdale is chuckling."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"-- which is the matter of the flight from the dollar and the fact that inflation is forcing people to look somewhere else than government bonds and bank savings accounts to put their savings. And the logical place today -- let me say it -- if you wish to protect your savings, is to buy your own home or to buy a piece of real estate."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"How about insurance?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Oh boy -- no sir."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"I have got a lot of money I can borrow at six per cent."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"In No. 5 they point out the 10 per cent you allow for carrying charges is completely inadequate. Go out and try to get a mortgage today, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"Borrow money at six per cent."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"You are going to have to pay 11, 12, or 13 per cent for a mortgage. The government is allowing 10 per cent for carrying charges. When it dreamed up the bill, perhaps it was 10 per cent -- but it is not 10 per cent any more. It is not 10 per cent. Things are changing too fast.",
"“6. The condition requiring a 20 per cent improvement to exemption of the tax is unrealistic.” And they give examples of that. I won’t go into the details.",
"Under 7, they say, “This tax, if it is to meet a specific problem at this time, should be put on for a certain period of time.” But there is a danger there, which of course is pretty obvious.",
"As the member for York-Forest Hill says, how are they ever going to take this tax off? Let’s suppose we have a depression five or 10 years from now, perhaps one year from now, and nobody can sell real estate, and the government wants to get that tax off to encourage people to come in. Does the minister realize what happens if he takes it off as of any specific day? All those who have gone before will literally feel they have been --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Yes, without being kissed."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"If there is a depression there will be no tax."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Whether there is a depression or not --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Is that what the member is hoping for?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"That sounds like “turn down the thermostat.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Whether there is a depression or not we will still have the tax because we have inflation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"The commodities market is so much simpler."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"I can’t explain to these people. I have tried and tried; they just can’t understand it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"Why is he reading the advice of a socialist organization?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"I made a special point of writing a letter to the member for Brant; I printed it somewhere but he still doesn’t understand."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Ferrier",
"text": [
"He is a great investor in Cara, that’s all."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"You see, the one thing that the minister is ignoring --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"It’s a pity no one in the world is as smart as the member for High Park."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Farmers produce the futures and he profits from them."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"That seems fair."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Well, the whole party is sinking."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"How come he is reading from an NDP report?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, one of the facts of life with us today is inflation, and the minister and the government -- and I guess not just this minister and this government; we have another government in Ottawa -- they all have the tattoo, “Maybe it will go away. If we don’t do anything about it, maybe it won’t get any worse; then next year it will get better.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Gaunt",
"text": [
"The member’s party supports them in Ottawa."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"My party is no better. I confess that. We are all in this same horrible --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"Will the hon. member repeat that?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"I’ll repeat that. All politicians love to get up and say, “Elect us, and we will give you more.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"Except the hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"I am not running for re-election again. There is no problem. I am the only guy in here who can speak the truth."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"I think the hon. member said that the last time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"I am not seeking re-election. I don’t have to say the things that the hon. minister has to say in order to get re-elected."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Does the hon. member mean he was telling lies before the last election?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"The hon. member’s leader looks relieved."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Well, the member calls it as he sees it, I guess.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"It’s easy now; it’s easy."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"Why is everybody a statesman when they are on their way out? Why wasn’t the hon. member a statesman before?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"I wanted to get re-elected."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"You know what a statesman is -- a dead politician.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Inflation is going to get worse; there is no way that it is going to be reversed. The policy at Ottawa is to print more money, to live beyond our means, and the people in the government seats at Queen’s Park must accept that fact and draw up their legislation accordingly. This legislation gives no consideration to that whatsoever, because the ordinary fellow, who is not a land speculator; he’s not going in and out and buying and selling -- perhaps he is a doctor who bought an office on Roncesvalles Ave. --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Don’t give the address."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"-- and who, because of inflation, has seen the value of his office go up every year, even if there is no real increase in value. A building that was worth $30,000 last year and sells for $40,000 this year is not really bringing much more, if any more, true value to the person who sells it, because he ends up with paper money and since everything has gone up in price, that paper money will buy less.",
"The minister has completely ignored this whole inflation factor. Inflation in this country was running at a rate of 12 per cent a year as of last month. By the end of this year it will be up over 16 per cent. The minister is allowing 10 per cent every year to cover all of the costs, including the mortgage. It just is completely unrealistic. Well, we go on.",
"Under 8, they say, “If this tax brings in enough revenue, this may just be the thin edge of the wedge.” And they are worried that from here the government’s going to go to commercial and industrial properties. Actually, I have no great objection to that.",
"“9. It appears that subdivisions will not qualify for exemptions even though the services have been installed. This would mean that the original developer will have to build on the lots. What effect will this have on the small builders?” Well, the minister has heard that from everyone. I presume he is going to bring in some sort of amendment to solve that problem. How he is going to do that without completely finishing off the bill, I don’t know, but let’s presume he has an amendment that will do that and still leave it some teeth.",
"Perhaps most important: “10. This tax will encourage the raising of rents” -- and I think it is self-evident. There is no question that as costs increase, and costs are going to increase, as supply lessens and supply is going to lessen, obviously the person who is in that house or in that apartment is going to be forced to pay the cost. Rents are going to go up. If the minister thinks otherwise, he is having a pipe dream.",
"I hope he doesn’t pay any attention to the idea of bringing in rent controls because that won’t work for another reason."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"Bring in rent controls."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"The member knows why that won’t work."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"The member’s party wants them."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"No, we don’t. Do we? Do we want rent control?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Absolutely."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"Which party? He doesn’t have a party. The guy hasn’t got a party. He has formed a new party.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Well, let me say a word on rent control. There is only one thing wrong with rent control. Rent control is lovely."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"I knew he would come around."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"I have experienced it two or three times myself. Rent control is great. If you are living in an apartment and they say your rent from here on in is going to be at the same $100 a month you have been paying right all along, that is wonderful as long as you live there, great and wonderful. When you go, you can sell the key for $1,000 and you can make money. It’s fine all the way along. There are only one or two minor things wrong. All apartments stop being built. There is no reason to build any more. How can you when it becomes non-economic?",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"If you exempt new buildings from it, what happens is that the old buildings become slums because they are not maintained. What is the point of putting money into maintaining it when you are not making any profit? Ultimately we get a New York City or a Chicago or a Philadelphia where landlords walk away from the buildings and they become gutted wrecks."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)",
"text": [
"I bet the member is going to go back in the stock market."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"What does the minister mean “go back?” He never left it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"Has he looked at the stock market lately?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"When I go back, it will recover itself."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"He is going to invest in dentures."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"All right, their tenth point is the tax will encourage the raising of rents, and I don’t think anyone can possibly argue that. I mean it’s just plain common sense that six months from now or a year from now, if the government foolishly goes ahead with this tax apartment rents are going to be considerably higher right across the province.",
"11, they recommend that apartment buildings should be considered commercial enterprises.",
"12, they recommend that all income-producing investment properties, except single family dwellings, be exempted.",
"13, they recommend that single family residences be exempted, provided they are held for a period of three years or more.",
"14, and again this is rather an important point and is of some interest --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"What does the hon. member for High Park think about that suggestion?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"13 or 14?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"The one about three years."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"I think one should have a graduated period of time. I think the member for York North had a pretty good idea where you graduate, that depending on the number of years that you hold the property, the tax be reduced accordingly. I think that’s just plain common sense. I presume that’s one of the minister’s amendments. If it isn’t, it should be.",
"There’s a disadvantage to that, though. I hope the minister realizes what the danger to that is, that it is encouraging people to keep land off the market, because if the longer they hold it, the less tax they have to pay, there is a great inducement to keep the land off the market. So there’s another trap the minister better think about before he jumps into that particular hole."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Then we will put the realty taxes up."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Okay, put every tax up; that’s a good rule to suggest.",
"14, they suggest exemption from the speculative tax of any person or company which buys raw land and develops it. This is one of their key points that they are making here. There s a great temptation to follow their suggestion but if the minister does he has gutted the bill. There’s nothing left.",
"This is what that socialist organization in Hamilton was suggesting. I don’t agree with a number of the points they make, for very obvious reasons, but I think they have to be said because a lot of their points are valid. A lot of the points that have been raised here by various persons that I have heard speaking are valid. What it really finally boils down to is that the government is not going to catch the people it thinks it is going to catch. Nobody is an idiot. No one is going to pay a 50 per cent tax to the minister and another 50 per cent tax to the federal government and end up making nothing. Why should they? What they are going to do, wherever possible, is steer out and steer into things where they will avoid this. Don’t build this --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"It is not there to catch people. It is there to develop more land for housing."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"But it isn’t going to do that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"That’s right. That’s it. Some day they will understand that over there. Maybe they never will."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"I am delighted --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"What is the point in this bill? It won’t do it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"That is a matter of opinion."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"-- that the minister has gone on record as saying that that’s what they want to do."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"So has the Minister of Revenue and so has the Treasurer. They have all gone on record."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"I am glad they are on record, because if that is what they are trying to do, they had better hold that election fast."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"That’s right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"A year from now they are going to have an awful lot of red jam on their faces because there is no way that that can encourage anyone to build."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Right, the government shouldn’t try. Is that it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"It should try, but try intelligently."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"The government is 10 years away from development."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Perhaps it is not sensible to ask the minister to proceed intelligently. I think he should bring in a bill to do exactly what he wants to do, and this bill is not it. This bill cannot do it. This bill is going to do exactly the reverse. It is going to increase the cost. It is going to increase the rarity. It is going to decrease the number of people who will be able to buy their homes. When I see what the government’s purpose is and when I see how it has tried to carry it out, I fear for it. I fear for the government and I fear for all of us, because the housing crisis is going to affect us all. The other members have all gone on record, now I want to go on record."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"It’s a courageous government."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"I have one piece of advice to give the government: It should hold its election fast, because my prediction is that a year from now housing is going to be much scarcer and much more expensive by at least one-third across this province, and the government’s bill is going to do it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"And I’ll give odds on that, too!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Yeah, the government is really speculating in land with this bill."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"They can save themselves yet. There are two ways they can save themselves."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"It’s even more misconceived than the energy bill, though it isn’t blowing up in their faces as dramatically."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Not as quickly. There are two ways they can save themselves: One is to hold a real fast election, because the public has been fooled and the press has been fooled. There is the foolish representative of the press."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"No, no. There’s the representative of the foolish press."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Pardon me, the representative of the foolish press. Sorry, I got it wrong.",
"The government has managed to fool the public and it has presented a very pretty package. If it holds its election fast it’ll come back in, it’ll have its government again, and it’ll have carried it off. But if it waits, they’re going to find out.",
"There’s another way the government can get out of it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. McIlveen",
"text": [
"The member won’t be running any more."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"No, I’m going to watch from the sidelines and cheer everybody on -- at them all."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. McIlveen",
"text": [
"There’ll be another Conservative from High Park."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"I would doubt that very much."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"No, no there won’t."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"Knowing the member, he’ll be selling apples on the street."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Jeer and cheer.",
"There’s an easier way, you know, because elections are nasty things and some of the members might even be beaten and this would cause great regrets all around. We would hate to lose any of them from this august company. They all fit in so well!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Not to mention some on this side of the House."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"There’s another solution. Instead of a vast election why doesn’t the government do the sensible thing, and I suspect it knows it’s the sensible thing even though it can’t even give me a nod of agreement. The sensible thing is take the bill out -- quietly say, “We’re going to reconsider it.” There’s nothing wrong with a government admitting they’ve made a mistake and that there’s a better way of doing things."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"The member really thinks we should do that, does he?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"The government has done it before. It has said: “Look, this bill requires more consideration. Let’s take it back. Because it can do what it’s trying to do."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"Put your seatbelts on."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"It can do what it’s trying to do without crippling the housing market, and without crippling the land market in the province -- if it just gives its people a little more time. They’re now aware of what the government wants to do. What it should have done is very obvious. It should have come and said, “Look, we want to bring in a bill that does the following,” and said it publicly. It should have said, “We’re going to hear from any delegation that wants to for two or three months,” or a reasonable period of time, and it wouldn’t have run into all this nonsense.",
"But it’s not too late. There is nothing wrong with saying, “Look, we’ve listened to the opposition, we’ve listened around the province, we can improve things.” Don’t be stubborn; don’t be foolish, because the government is really cutting its own throat plus that of all the people in Ontario who want to own a home."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"That’s right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"I can see by the frozen face on the minister he’s not going to follow my advice. So, all I can say --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"Every tax collector looks like that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. E. Stokes (Thunder Bay)",
"text": [
"The provincial secretary knows, eh?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"No feeling, no emotion."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"That’s right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"He’s had the experience."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"I think perhaps the minister has a slight feeling of unease just about now."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"I hadn’t noticed it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"It’s just because he’s been sitting for an hour."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"It’s those tacks he’s sitting on."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"I predict, Mr. Speaker, the minister is going to ruin the housing market in the province, and the election a year hence will be fought on his mistake."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"That’s right. That’s right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"And it may very well be that he -- and it’s quite unfair, it should have been that other fellow who’s in Europe -- but it may very well be that he will be the minister who ultimately goes down as the man who destroyed the Tory government and brought into power some other party. If so, at least his name will be in the history books -- and with that thought I leave him."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"That’ll be known as the Meen test."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Peel South."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Land and housing, those people opposite can’t cope with."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Kennedy",
"text": [
"I wanted to --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Is the member going to talk about the land transfer tax?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Go after them, bulldog."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Kennedy",
"text": [
"Not right now. The member doesn’t understand it even yet."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"This bill will destroy the housing market in Ontario. There’ll be nothing left of it after this."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"Who said there wasn’t any before?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Kennedy",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, my --",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"-- the greatest housing programme in North America."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Peel South has the floor."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Well then, let him speak, for God’s sake, if he has the floor."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Kennedy",
"text": [
"I think I lost a double turn, Mr. Speaker.",
"I think my colleague, the minister from St. Andrew-St. Patrick (Mr. Grossman) expressed the thought. The idea is to put more lots on the market. No question about it, that’s what the intent and the thrust of this bill is. Last year it was omitted by the opposition, who are the NDP, to acknowledge in describing --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"None of that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"This has to stop.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"Excluding the member for Lakeshore; pardon me, the member for High Park."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Kennedy",
"text": [
"All right. I’ll tell members who I included. The member for Riverdale mentioned something to the effect of a disastrous housing policy."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Absolutely."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Kennedy",
"text": [
"Yes, but I think the member should be reminded that the 110,000 dwelling units that were put in place in this province last year was the greatest ever in the history of the province."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"A mere pittance."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"A pittance."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Kennedy",
"text": [
"And that’s a disaster? Onward and upward every year."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"It’s nothing. The government is 150,000 units behind and this bill will put it further behind."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Kennedy",
"text": [
"It’s still more than ever and this is designed to assist."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"The government can’t even keep pace with the climbing birth rate."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Kennedy",
"text": [
"But I’ll say this, Mr. Speaker -- this bill needs something to accompany it. My suggestion is that concerted action on the installation of services by the various levels of government, whichever ones are involved, would provide a double whammy which would achieve the objective. I don’t think a suppressant without the encouragement of the real installation of these services will enable any programme to go forward.",
"Like the other members, I’ve had some inquiries and observations about the bill, mostly, initially and subsequently, with respect to concern for the small builder. I think it’s been quite well discussed here and I don’t think there is any need to add anything. We want more lots available for the small builder and every other type of builder, not fewer."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"The small builder says he is not going to get it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Kennedy",
"text": [
"Pardon?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"The small builder says he is not going to get it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Kennedy",
"text": [
"I know he does, and what we want to say is that he will."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"We’ll look after him."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Kennedy",
"text": [
"We want to design this bill and the regulations that accompany it so that he will get more lots. This is the whole object of it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Young",
"text": [
"Why didn’t the government do it before the bill was brought in?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Kennedy",
"text": [
"As I said on the previous bill, fools and bairns shouldn’t see things half done."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"This bill certainly is half done."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Young",
"text": [
"Why didn’t the government do it then?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Kennedy",
"text": [
"I don’t see any bairns, Mr. Speaker.",
"One thing that bothers me is land which is potential development land being held out of use through inappropriate zoning. The zoning has to be changed. Although the owner, the person holding this land, may be working toward this end as diligently as he can, it hasn’t had approval for the desired zoning, perhaps by virtue of the fact -- or lack of virtue of the fact -- there aren’t services, or for whatever reason. During this period of time escalation is carrying on and this person who would sincerely want to bring this land onto the market cannot do it, not because he is holding it and waiting for escalation but because it is something presumably beyond his capacity to get rezoned.",
"I’ve also had some concern with respect to commercial and industrial land which is exempted according to the explanatory notes. A situation I know of concerns a block of some 118 acres with a low assessment; services are nearby, adjacent, ready to go; the owner is presumably holding the land. He is not putting it on the market and there could be any number of reasons. I can --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. Haggerty (Welland South)",
"text": [
"Low assessment."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Kennedy",
"text": [
"It could be low assessment; it could be waiting for a further hike in value; and what I think is a significant reason probably is as a tax haven. Without this bill there is, of course, the corporate tax --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"The income tax."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Kennedy",
"text": [
"Yes, the corporate income tax, that’s right; the corporate income tax and capital gains tax."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"Why should that be exempt from speculation tax?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Kennedy",
"text": [
"That’s a good point; that’s what I’m talking about."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"That’s the point I raised."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Kennedy",
"text": [
"That’s a good point and the member did raise it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"All right; that’s the point I raised and that’s what a lot of people think now."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Kennedy",
"text": [
"I intended to make reference to the member’s remarks, which I listened to very attentively.",
"This particular block of land, as a matter of fact, has a lower assessment than a five- or six-acre greenhouse, the owner of which has been there for a number of years, struggling to make a living in that field of endeavour. He’s assessed two or three times as much per acre as the man I mentioned before.",
"As one goes up the street -- it is Dixie Rd. I speak of -- there are indications of blocks of land held there. There is a crying need for industrial land, and yet for numerous reasons this isn’t coming on the market. I think situations such as this should have some examination."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"How is this bill going to do anything to help?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Kennedy",
"text": [
"Pardon?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"How is this bill going to affect it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Kennedy",
"text": [
"It isn’t; this is the point I’m making. I think we have to go a bit further and have a look at these situations.",
"There are also other blocks of land which they want to bring on the market but perhaps the services aren’t there. There are potential services and the escalation taking place is based on potential value; and of course that is what speculation is all about.",
"Another sale was brought to my attention. I know over the course of the last couple of years we’ve heard of cases where land is bought and sold almost overnight with a great hike in price. This is a case -- in Oakville, I think it is, the legal description isn’t that precise -- where 150 acres were sold on June 21, 1973, and the price was $1,119,025 which is at the rate of $7,460 an acre. It was resold two months later -- the date of registry is Aug. 31 -- for the sum of $1,715,880; which is an increase of $596,000 --say $600,000 -- on this piece of land in two months.",
"The price per acre therefore went from $7,460 to $11,439. This isn’t unique. I don’t have the detail as to the zoning, unfortunately, so I don’t know what transpired here; but $600,000 in a couple of months isn’t bad.",
"Obviously these people aren’t in this business for their health. One has to take into account, and I’m sure they did, income tax, corporation tax, capital gains, the whole bit. Although the hike is $600,000, I wonder what the true profit to the vendor is? It will be interesting to know if there has been a subsequent sale and what’s happened in that situation.",
"The 150 acres is still there. It has served nobody except perhaps the federal government with the tax revenue it would receive from it and, of course, we don’t need to bleed for the principals in it either, I wouldn’t think. It is this type of thing, I suggest, Mr.",
"Speaker, that this bill is aimed at.",
"The members have mentioned certain com- plications, and we’ve picked things out which have been brought to our attention --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. E. Sargent (Grey-Bruce)",
"text": [
"Tell the Minister of Agriculture and Food what the member said about him."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Kennedy",
"text": [
"Pardon?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"Tell the minister what the member said about him."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Kennedy",
"text": [
"He’s the best minister we’ve ever had in the field of agriculture."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. A. Stewart (Minister of Agriculture and Food)",
"text": [
"I’m glad the member was reminded."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Kennedy",
"text": [
"That’s what they said. I’m glad the member drew that to my attention."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"It wasn’t good."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Kennedy",
"text": [
"So the principle of the bill, Mr. Speaker, is sound. I’ve pointed out some things that are bothering people, some of the technical details of it. I again suggest that it has to go in concert with other aspects of the development of housing. The intent is to bring more lots onto the market, not fewer lots. And it is not to inhibit, or penalize or suppress the development or the production of housing for the people of Ontario."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Is that what the statute says?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Kennedy",
"text": [
"Right, right. And that’s what it’s going to do."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Is that what the statute says?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker I’d like to speak briefly on the principle of this bill."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. J. T. Clement (Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations)",
"text": [
"He would be the last one to let Downsview down."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"It is apparent in the Kitchener-Waterloo area that land prices have gone beyond reason especially land that is required in the immediate future for residential purposes. This is the sad part of the situation in the Province of Ontario, Mr. Speaker, because that land which is needed most for the development of residential units, both single family dwellings and multiple, high-density buildings, has inflated beyond all rhyme and reason. I would like to just quote from the Kitchener paper and to say at the outset I agree with the principle of trying to do something to take the middleman out of the land business, that is the speculator. I would like to make a few references to what has happened. Here is a quote:",
"“In the twin city area at the present time, housing costs have risen to become the third highest in Canada, exceeded only by Toronto and Vancouver.”",
"This situation, Mr. Speaker, is not right. Something is drastically wrong. I would like to try to relate a little bit of what has caused this. The figures shown in the release of last fall are somewhat old, but they do give the average amounts that housing costs in the three most expensive municipalities in Canada. Vancouver they show at $38,562; Toronto, $41,264; and Kitchener-Waterloo, $35,831.",
"Now, since last fall, Mr. Speaker, these figures have escalated considerably beyond that. But there’s no reason why a municipality -- a relatively small community in comparison to some of the larger municipalities -- should be living under the pressure that we are living under in the development of single family lots in the twin city area.",
"One of the reasons for this, of course Mr. Speaker, is that there are what the local papers describe as five “power blocs” controlling 80,500 acres of land surrounding the twin cities. These five power blocs are made up of companies with interlocking directors. In all, there are about 29 companies, many of which own only one small parcel of land. That is, a few small companies will own one farm, maybe two farms, so that numerous small companies have been developed and make up five large syndicated groups which own most of our development land.",
"These five companies owning 8,500 acres of land own all the effective development land around the twin cities; and because these development companies have bought up so much land, they find their holdings costs have escalated proportionately. The reason given as to why they have to keep so much inventory of land is that they’re trying to get a jump ahead of the speculators. And when a development company has to buy from the speculator a piece of land which has been turned over two or three times in the last two or three years, the development company is then the victim of speculation in the same way as anyone else.",
"I think we must agree, Mr. Speaker, that those who are legitimately in a development business do need an inventory of land. It is the basis on which they can keep in business. With the length of time which is required to bring a subdivision on the market from the original stages, it would be ridiculous if a development company that develop lots either for sale or for building didn’t have a proper inventory of land."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Young",
"text": [
"The province owns enough up there."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"The reason given, of course, is that they must buy so much additional land to try to keep ahead of the speculators.",
"One of the largest speculators in the area has been Ontario Housing Corp., which owns something around 3,000 acres of land on the one side of twin cities and another 200 or 300 acres on the other side. This land has been held for a considerable time. It was all class 1 farm land. It cannot be serviced presently. It has been held for about six years, but it has had a terrific effect on driving up the prices of land, especially the 3,000-acre parcel which is in the vicinity of the airport.",
"It has, of course, set off a flurry of land buying in the Waterloo-Wellington airport vicinity and the price of that land, which could be developed and probably will be, eventually, for industrial as well as residential use, has been driven up considerably beyond what is practical for normal development.",
"Statistically, Mr. Speaker, one parcel of land was bought for $41,000, resold for $81,000, and sold again for $155,000. Another parcel of 150 acres showed a profit of $1,492,000 as it changed hands. Another parcel showed a profit of $557,000 as it changed hands -- not to developers, but from one owner to another owner before it ever arrived in the hands of a developer. Another parcel showed a profit of $1,200,000 and it has now been sold to a developer. Another parcel showed a profit of $603,000.",
"The final example, Mr. Speaker, is a parcel of land which was first bought for $150,000, resold for $372,000 and again it has been resold for $650,000; and it still is not in the hands of a developer who is going to bring it into service. So here we find the developers bemoaning the fact they have to pay so much for their land for the simple reason people are turning it over, shuffling paper and issuing cheques as the hon. member for Downsview said, without adding anything substantially.",
"In principle, I agree there must be something done to discourage people from simply turning over land as a form of investment. I think we must look at the whole matter of speculation. Most of the speculation in the Province of Ontario, I think, is done in two areas: First on recreational property, waterfront lots; and secondly on residential land which eventually will end up as housing lots. Granted we can’t create any more waterfront land in the province. There is only so much waterfront land in southern Ontario and the demand for it is exceedingly great.",
"The demand for residential land is also exceedingly great but something can and should have been done, and I hope will be done, to increase the supply of residential land which will cool down the speculation fever. Nothing can be done to --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Where is the legislation to do that? The minister shouldn’t wave his hands because the government is not doing it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"Nothing can be done, Mr. Speaker, to increase the supply of recreational waterfront land, so we are going to have to deal with a situation where we have three buyers chasing every cottage lot; even if one can be found, which I doubt. But why we don’t see brought before us legislation which would drastically increase the number of serviced lots and the amount of land brought in for development, I am at a loss to understand.",
"Mr. Speaker, any investment with a 10 per cent return will double itself in about 7 1/4 years. A few years ago we would have called that an exorbitantly high rate of return on an investment. When interest rates were five and six per cent we talked of 15 to 17 years to double one’s money.",
"Speculation is in the mind, the social conscience of the community, as to how fast one should get a return on an investment. When one makes an investment and gets a proper return, no one thinks anything of that. And it is not too many years ago when doubling your money in 15 years was considered a reasonable and socially accepted investment. Now we find that at 10 per cent one can double money, with compound interest, in about 7 1/4 years."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"Or be a member of the cabinet. Either one."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"Well, one is as good as the other, yes.",
"We find that even at 10 per cent, an investment is not a very good hedge against inflation, as we have seen in the last few years. All one is doing is keeping even with inflation. One is not building up one’s equity to create buying power any greater than what one had at the beginning of the term of investment.",
"So, we have a graduated scale here, where we say if a person makes money at the rate of 10 per cent and doubles his money in 7 1/4 years, perhaps that is socially accepted; but if a person invests in something and doubles his money overnight, one wonders whether our society can accept increases in investment and return like that.",
"As the leader of my party has said, people have turned to land, looking for that quick investment. First, I think many people turn to land as a hedge against inflation, and rightly so, as I said in my contribution to the Throne Speech debate. But every person in the province who wants to should be in the position that he can buy his own house, because it is the only hedge against inflation on which he can really count. But we don’t even have, in this province, that condition where each person can buy his own house."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"He can’t afford it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"That is the sad part of this whole land and house situation, that the supply has not been equal to the demand. And the responsibility for this situation --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Haggerty",
"text": [
"It lies over there."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"-- has to rest on the shoulders of the government, which has been completely directing land-use policy across the province in the last number of years."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Right. To their great shame."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Ruston",
"text": [
"Five years."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"If we say that it is socially acceptable to double one’s money in a certain period of time, but it is unacceptable to double one’s money overnight, then I think that the idea of a graduated tax has great merit. If one is to invest in GICs, bonds, land, an art treasure, diamonds, jewellery or gold, no matter what, I think that in our present system a reasonable return on his investment is quite acceptable.",
"If that return on investment, whether it be land or be something else, is beyond what is socially acceptable, I think an increased tax of 100 per cent, 90 per cent or 80 per cent, down to what we consider to be the proper return, would be acceptable by people in this province. I think the day has gone when we say: “There’s a smart cookie. He made $100,000 overnight.” I think many of us are ready to accept that, because we find that the method of taxation must be related to the return to the individual.",
"It’s going to be a very interesting point, how one handles the profit, with a 50 per cent provincial excess profits tax, a federal capital gains tax, a federal income tax and the profit goes to charity. I don’t know how one would handle a situation like that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"When you get up to 112 per cent, there’s no problem."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, there are things in the bill that concern me a great deal. When we look at the exemption clause, we find that sale of land by a corporation that is winding up its affairs and dividing its assets to shareholders is exempt. I wonder if that provision (c) will leave the door open for many small companies to be formed simply to speculate on land, sell their one parcel of land and distribute the profits to the shareholders.",
"There are, as I mentioned before, 29 individual small companies that are recorded in this one article in the Kitchener paper as owning small parcels of land, and some larger parcels of land. It is a very simple matter to take a profit, wind up the company, distribute the assets and start over by incorporating a new company. Any lawyer will do it for you for $500 or $700; maybe it’s $1,000 by now, I don’t know."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Hey, wait a minute, wait a minute. Don’t go --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Don’t go setting fees."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"All right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Well, it all depends on the circumstances."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"So I think that section (c) is a loophole which will have to be plugged and I don’t understand the reason for it being there, Mr. Speaker.",
"By increasing the values of land by 40 per cent or more to evade the tax, I think that is also a loophole that could be abused. It would be a simple matter to buy a partially completed house. And believe me Mr.",
"Speaker, the speculation on completed houses in our area has just been something unconscionable. Houses have changed hands, without anyone living in them, for $10,000 or $12,000 or $15,000 more than the safe price by the builder.",
"The city of Kitchener had to apply for private legislation to prohibit the speculation on houses which are built as the city’s special development houses. These are houses serviced to a lower degree and sold at a fixed price. So we find there is speculation, not only on raw land but also on housing.",
"I think the tax could be evaded quite successfully if one were to buy a partially-finished residential house at a price lower than the sale price, then spending 40 per cent of that price by putting on the roof, putting in the plumbing and the wiring and the heating, and then selling -- having added that much to your purchase price you could evade the tax."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"Come on."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"Someone will be doing that before this bill even gets cold and the ink dries on the paper.",
"I think, Mr. Speaker, there are other things that show great deficiencies in this bill. One with which I am concerned, of course, is what is going to happen to the small builder who is in the habit of buying 10 or 15 lots a year from a large developer. We have numerous examples of that in the twin cities, where the major developers will sell ten lots or a part of subdivision to one builder, another street to another builder. This goes on and on and that is the only source of supply for those small builders. And if they are prohibited from doing this, Mr. Speaker, you will find that a lot of small builders will be put right of business; because in the twin cities today it’s impossible to buy a lot and build your own house. You have to buy it as part of a building contract."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"And this government is going to destroy that whole business.",
"Another thing, Mr. Speaker, I think the minister should also give serious consideration to people who presently own parcels of land on which a registered plan of subdivision has already been approved.",
"I am thinking of the case of a widow who called me two weeks ago. She has a registered plan of subdivision in a recreational area, and it is her purpose to sell two or three lots every year as long as she lives as a source of income. It took this woman and her husband about six years to get this plan approved. Her husband, unfortunately, passed away last year."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Is that the new speed-up they have over there?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"She got the approval last December and is ready to sell a few lots each year. There is no way she wants to get involved in building cottages or houses on these lots. People who buy these lots from her invariably want to build their own cottage or retirement home. I think that there should be an amendment written into this legislation to protect the person in that situation. And also to protect the person who wants to do nothing but go through the nightmare of trying to get a registered plan of subdivision approved and then sell the lots. I think on the original sale there should be some exclusion made from the tax.",
"I understand the purpose of the bill. I wish the government success in trying to make it work. I think it is going to be a nightmare, but I hope it does achieve the purpose for which it is intended."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Well, if it is going to be a nightmare, why is the member supporting it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"Because it is the only thing that has been brought forth that might happen to work."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"That is right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The member heard what the member for York-Forest Hill said. How can it work?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"The member for Scarborough West is on the wrong side of this one."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Windsor West."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Oh, come on."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"He miscalculated this one."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"The leader of the NDP should listen to the member and hear his speech."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Never have we been so virtuous as on this bill."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please. The member for Windsor West has the floor."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. E. J. Bounsall (Windsor West)",
"text": [
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The purpose for the government bringing in a bill of this kind is one which we would normally support here in the New Democratic Party. That purpose, as stated by various members on the opposite side, is to make more land available for Housing at reasonable prices."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"That’s the principle."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"That is the purpose and principle of this bill. However, this bill, An Act to impose a Tax on Speculative Profits resulting from Disposition of Land, fails abjectly to achieve either objective. In fact it defeats the purpose and that is why we on this side find it difficult, if not impossible, to vote for this bill."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"That is not what the member told the Windsor Star, though.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"We will make it very clear what was told."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"That’s not what it says in the paper."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"We will make it very clear.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"If the member would like to stay and listen we will make it very clear what was said.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, this party and I are not for speculators in any way, shape or form.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"I have not seen the article referred to in the paper, the Windsor Star. If that is what is quoted in that Windsor Star, that is not what I said. We all know in the Windsor area that from time to time, particularly on matters of this sort, the Windsor Star is not completely accurate.",
"The bill, in order to achieve this purpose, is going to try to remove speculators from the land business, or is going to attempt to remove the speculative profit from land. We all know who we mean by the speculators here. They come very readily to mind. They are those few wealthy individuals or speculative companies who buy land and sell it for a higher price without creating any improvement at all on that land -- often they get a much higher price -- making a very quick and unconscionable profit from this. It is all reflected inevitably and finally in the cost of the housing which gets built on that land, the cost of the entire unit.",
"Often the speculators trade and sell land to each other, between companies which have interlocking directorates, with no improvements done at all upon it, rapidly escalating the price of that land. All of which is passed on finally to the prospective home purchaser.",
"I firmly believe that this bill will not achieve the result of making either more land available or land at a reasonable cost let alone a lower cost.",
"The large speculator, of course, will always find a way around this bill. The large speculator, for example, holding land worth $300,000 or valued at that or even purchased since April 9 at that value, and anticipating selling it for $500,000, looking at the 50 per cent speculative tax, will simply say, “Okay, I’ll sell that land for $700,000. I’ll still get my $200,000 that I want to get out of this.” He will sell it for $700,000. In no way is that going to cause this land to be available for building at reasonable prices but it will push up the price in this example by another 40 per cent.",
"The bill itself requires that improvements be made on the land such as buildings built on the property. Another way around this bill, of course, is for the speculator not to sell the land. He enters into arrangements with the builders to whom in the normal course of things he would sell the land on which they would build. He enters into agreement with those builders. He doesn’t sell it to them but agrees with them that they will build on that land and the unit gets sold for whatever the speculator wishes the land to be evaluated at at the time. What happens to the builder, especially the small builder? In order to get land on which to build -- and he does not wish to go out of business -- he will enter into whatever agreement he has to enter into with the person who owns the land in order to perform his service of building the house. This really makes him nothing more than an employee of the land specula- tor. That’s an untenable position for the home builder to find himself in. He will become forever dependent upon the large speculator, much like the managers of the Becker Milk stores.",
"In terms of availability of the land, where is the small builder going to get that land this summer? Members all know that since the budget was introduced there hasn’t been one speculator or that much land at all has become available in this province. If at this stage the small builder has not already got his land on which he was planning to build his units in this coming building season, he is not going to get it. He won’t get it until this bill is passed with all the amendments which I wish we had before us to consider.",
"Until this bill is passed with those amendments, when they have been thoroughly threshed out in committee -- and I hope this bill will certainly be sent to a committee outside the House so we can do just that -- no land will become available throughout this entire period. When the bill does go through third reading in its final form there is going to be a further delay while the large land holders decide how they can get around paying this tax.",
"In the meanwhile, no more land becomes available. The small builder is not going to have any more land on which the build in this particular building season.",
"There are several other things which bother me because with the way the bill is written one can’t define the difference. One cannot draw a line. What about the small, individual person? The member for Waterloo North mentioned one in his remarks -- the widow who has decided to sell off small lots, having acquired a subdivision, in order to sustain her for the rest of her life.",
"What about the small operator of that sort, who has land, and goes through the expense and the time of getting a subdivision approved on that property? Normally that’s all they do and they have provided something of a service in so doing. There are many -- I don’t know how many -- but the small people involved in this situation must be quite numerous. These aren’t the big speculators we are talking about who have shuffled paper back and forth between companies, reselling and buying the same land and making great profits from it. These are small people who have a small number of lots available, who have got the subdivision and are now hoping and expecting to sell them off. They are caught in this bill.",
"So also are the persons, I gather there are a goodly number of them around the province, who have been in the business not of making unconscionable profits but of buying land which has been subdivided and putting in the services. These persons, in turn, sell it to the small builders in various bits and pieces. This, by and large, is the way building has been done in Essex county, as I understand it. One person is involved in the subdivision who sells it, but not at an unreasonable profit, to the person who puts in the services; he in turn sells it, but not at an unreasonable profit, to the builder.",
"The small builder is also concerned not just over the unavailability, to him, of lots this year and the delays in lots coming on the market for him to purchase, he is concerned about the first point I mentioned. That is, the large developer or the large speculator who has already made his profit after he’s added on the 50 per cent. Land will come into the small builder’s hands and he knows full well, because he builds only five, six or seven houses a year and he’s close to the persons who are buying these houses, that with interest rates being what they are and with an escalated cost of land in that building unit he just will not be able to sell that finished product now, which he has heretofore been able to do.",
"The minister needs very much to consider in the bill some way in which he cannot rule out entirely the small individual who has been engaged in essentially this type of what we would call services, and at the same time stop what we would all like to stop, the large speculator. But there is in this bill as far as I see it no way that one can draw that dividing line.",
"Perhaps the minister can tell us in some detail how one is going to ascertain the fair market value price for a piece of property, the valuation day being April 9. I would be most interested in the minister’s explanations of how he is going to arrive at that particular value for a piece of property already owned.",
"In terms of a bill that should be brought in, the only way that I can see that we would achieve getting more land on to the market at reasonable prices is to take the attitude that land must be a social resource, not a profit-making commodity at all, which could be bought and sold in the marketplace. For that to occur, a completely different bill to achieve these ends is necessary.",
"I think the government has got to get involved, to go out and carry through its oft-stated policy of land banking. But the government has to do it on a sufficient scale around the province that large amounts of serviced land become available. The land bank would be paying for that land -- simply original cost plus reasonable holding costs. The government then says that that land gets serviced by the various companies around this province who are in the business of servicing land. The government then puts those lots on the market for sale based upon those costs.",
"There is no profit being made by the government in that situation and that land would then become available on as large a scale as the government wishes to engage in the programme and at a price which is reasonable. Until there is a bill I can see which is workable, which this bill is not -- a bill which is based upon the principle that land is a social resource and not a commodity to be bought and sold and traded in the marketplace -- I will have to say that I cannot support this bill in this form. Thank you,",
"Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Riddell",
"text": [
"Although I agree with the member’s philosophy, one should never kick a bleeding dog."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Eglinton."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reilly",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I find myself in agreement with many of the comments that have been made by members of the opposition -- even by my good friend, the member for High Park.",
"I find there are a number of things that have been said that I could support. Basically I think the bill itself is long overdue. I believe in the philosophy of this particular bill to impose a tax on speculative profits on lands that haven’t been improved. I think there is a lot of merit in this. I think the government has introduced a worthwhile bill but I think it is full of loopholes. But we have to start somewhere and we have started somewhere.",
"The member for Waterloo North indicated a number of instances from the standpoint of increased costs of land. If for no other reason, I should judge, he would support this bill.",
"It is not only in a metropolis like the city of Toronto and its environs where speculation occurs. I know of one instance where property changed hands five times, each time with increased profit, without anything being done on the land. This can happen not only in the city of Toronto but in an area like the city of Peterborough. There was a case there where the price started at $45,000 and went to $90,000 to $300,000, to over $600,000, and not so long ago the land sold at $1.3 million. Nothing has been done with the property except exchange it at a profit."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Riddell",
"text": [
"Sounds like a Tory speculator."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reilly",
"text": [
"Yes, well there is nothing wrong with certain types of speculation in my book. I think that this is the wrong thing about the entire bill. The bill has been too encompassing. It started out with a large net and it caught too many fish."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)",
"text": [
"Mackerel, likely."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reilly",
"text": [
"If it had started out and got the speculator, I think everybody in this assembly would be happy. But it hasn’t done that. It has done more than that.",
"Mr. Speaker, at supper time tonight I received a telephone call from a constituent in my riding who said, “After the last war I took some of my proceeds and I put them in a fourplex. I didn’t want to put them in a GIC or a GSC or a bank deposit and I don’t invest in the stock market, but I did think I would put it into some kind of revenue-producing, income-producing property.” Since that time he’s done it two or three times. You may call him a speculator, but surely that isn’t the kind of person that you want to get in this net?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"That’s exactly it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reilly",
"text": [
"Now, this man told me that he often would go down to that fourplex in his own time and do some odd repairs, making good, painting, doing whatever was necessary to save himself costs but increasing his investment. Now, unfortunately our bill encompasses many of these people who aren’t putting it in from the standpoint of a speculator but actually are trying to provide an annuity for themselves."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Givens",
"text": [
"That’s right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"The government won’t have to keep them."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reilly",
"text": [
"That’s right and in that particular case he said to me, “I haven’t asked for welfare and I am not asking for unemployment insurance and I am not asking for government assistance. What I want under these circumstances is a right to live with certain dignity. I want to, under these circumstances, invest for my future and prepare for it,” and there is no reason why he should be denied that right.",
"In my view, Mr. Speaker, there is a difference between that man and a person who buys a piece of property and six months later sells it at a tremendous profit. I think you should make a difference between him and that man who has a piece of property and has held that property for one year, or for five years, or for 10 years, or for 25 years. I think there’s a definite difference between the man who buys it and holds it for a period of time and works on that land and uses it for an annuity than the person who comes along and comes in for the first month, sells it six months later, and somebody else moves along and sells it maybe three months after that.",
"I think that if I knew what the amendments were perhaps I could go along with the other members in this House. They don’t know what the amendments are. What I can’t understand for the life of me is that the members of the New Democratic Party don’t support such a bill as this. I would have judged that under the circumstances they would be the first to endorse this principle."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. Gisborn (Hamilton East)",
"text": [
"The member wasn’t listening."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Gaunt",
"text": [
"The speculators’ party."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. Dukszta (Parkdale)",
"text": [
"The member doesn’t understand the conception."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reilly",
"text": [
"Many of the points have been expressed here. It isn’t necessary for me to repeat them now. You know the effect that it has on a person who invests money in an apartment block, not a large speculator, maybe 12 suites, building his future that way. Let’s not deny him the right to work for himself and provide his own future. This is the appeal that I make to the minister.",
"I also suggest what has been said here before many times this evening, that we have to consider the small builder, if you want to call him such. Provision should be made for that man.",
"Let’s remember that the purpose of this is to get after those people who are exploiting, who are raising unnecessarily the cost of housing and the cost of commercial property. Those are the people who we are after.",
"I can give you personal experience where I have encouraged the members of my family to purchase houses over recent years. In one specific case, my daughter’s property increased within a period of two years from $50,000 to $100,000 value.",
"Now, these are the things that we are trying to prevent and I think the purpose of the bill is good. I think the idea behind the bill is good, Mr. Speaker. I think what the minister is trying to get at in proposing the tax is the speculator. My appeal to the minister in his amendments is to concentrate on the speculator and not to take away from some of these who want to earn their own living and provide their own future."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Grey-Bruce."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, across Ontario the people are waking up to find out how really inept this legislation is. I think of when Lady Godiva goes home and the guy says, “Where in the hell have you been, your horse has been back for three days?” I think the people are realizing just exactly what is going on."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Explain it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"The member should speak up. Where was she?",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"In other words, we want to know just what is happening. What is happening here?",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"I’m glad we have the hon. member for York North here, and the hon. members for Peel South, Victoria-Haliburton (Mr. R. G. Hodgson) and Eglinton. They’re all going to vote for us on this; they’re going to vote against this, I hope. I think we’ll all vote against it unless we have many amendments to it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. L. Maeck (Parry Sound)",
"text": [
"The member’s leadoff speaker said the Liberals were supporting it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"He isn’t listening to his leader."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"Well, we’ll see. I was very impressed by the remarks of my leader and of the hon. members for York-Forest Hill, Downsview and Waterloo North; they were right on target. I think the minister has made a lot of notes to amend a lot of things.",
"But basically I think that the free enterprise system is going to go down the drain if this kind of thing keeps on happening, because farmers and their forefathers, who have paid taxes on their farms for generations, now have been put in a position where they can’t sell them.",
"If the minister can’t make a distinction between a man who holds a piece of land for six months and sells it, and the farmer who has held the land for 25 or 50 years, then we’re in trouble.",
"Now this province is not unique in this problem, Mr. Speaker. What creates speculation is a land boom, mostly in areas abutting on metropolitan areas, in fringe development. And over the years, in Europe, the United States and in countless other jurisdictions, they’ve had this problem where speculators come into an area and, anticipating a boom, buy up land in the prospect of making a killing.",
"These speculators have had nothing whatsoever to do with the factors that make the value of that land skyrocket. They’ve had nothing to do with creating that increased value in the land. It’s the community itself that creates that value, and that community should be the first one to reap the rewards. In many cases this is solved by a reciprocal land tax.",
"I mentioned this to the minister the other day, and he said he’d never heard about a reciprocal land tax. I don’t hold that against him; I think he’s an able man. But what I’m trying to say is that in a problem so important as this, why wouldn’t he do proper research and come in with something that’s going to work.",
"For instance, this is how a reciprocal land tax works: For years the land has been assessed as farm land, probably paying an assessment of you name it -- anybody can pick a figure -- but the total farm has been assessed for $5,000 or maybe $25 an acre. And now we wake up --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, on a point of clarification, can the hon. member tell me in what jurisdiction they’re using this principle so that I might be able to look into it a little bit at some future time?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"I’ll get it for the minister."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Does the hon. member mean he doesn’t know the jurisdiction in which this principle is being used?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"Yes, the main area is London, Eng., where it was used to control speculation going on there in fringe development --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"Boy, they’ve got speculation under control there!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"-- and in many parts of the continent. Well, now we wake up and find that the farm is being bought for $500 an acre --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"This is in London, Eng.?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"No, I’m talking about the principle of the deal. Try to be intelligent for a moment."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Yes, I’ll work at it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. R. Smith (Hamilton Mountain)",
"text": [
"Thorpe was up at their convention."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"-- or $50,000 for the farm, and the farm in turn being sold for $500,000. Now, the reciprocal land tax comes into play, and all of the back taxes for 10 or 20 years have to be paid up at current land values or a percentage of it, based on its value. So the speculator knows before he goes into the deal, that the municipality, the township, the village, the town or the city will receive it as its rightful due."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"That’s our golf club again."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"So payday does comes to the local government, to the local municipality. Instead, here, the government is going to reap all the money, hundreds of millions of dollars in taxes, which should be going to the municipality."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Did the member read the budget? That is what we said we would do."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"The trouble with this government is that in recognizing a problem -- and we do have a problem; it’s been so ably put forth by everyone here -- and in trying to solve it they go about it in a very unprofessional way. With the greatest respect, the fellows who drafted this bill made a hell of a poor job of it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Oh, boy, I’d sure hate to have the member doing it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"I have been talking about this reciprocal land tax for the past 10 years here. And speculation didn’t just start last week or last month or last year in this province. In 1964 in Hansard I talked about five local Toronto Tories. They bought land in Bramalea, they didn’t put any money up, they signed for $50,000 each -- they put up no money, they just signed for it -- and six months later they sold the land for $5 million and each one took a capital gain of $1 million, having put up no money. This is a matter of record. We all know the ongoing scandals in Bramalea which this government had a great part in. But that is not part of this picture."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"The member just brought it in."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"It would make a hell of a good story if the truth ever came out. But I received a letter last week from a lady in mv constituency in Owen Sound and she was telling me about her father and mother --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. R. Smith",
"text": [
"Did they have mail delivery there?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"Pardon me?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. R. Smith",
"text": [
"How come they had mail delivery up there?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"Well, 10 days ago. I have it in my file if the member wants me to produce it. Her father and mother are living in Port Hope."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"It’s that mountain air that makes that fellow over there so sharp."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"They put their farm up for sale for $125,000, but the brother of the mayor of Port Hope bought the land from them for $100,000, and in so doing he posted a $25,000 deposit. That was in 1969. In brief, the story is this: In 1971 the farm was sold for $650,000, and to this date the farmer has only received this $25,000 deposit. He can’t get the balance of his money. I tell the members this because, going from $25,000 received, the big speculators have had now $650,000 in their kick.",
"Countless land deals involving hundreds of millions of dollars, just billions of dollars, have been going on and now the government thinks that this legislation might be good vote-getting material; it might be another gut issue. Like its think-tank says to the government, let’s play the teachers against the tax- payers. And that’s boomeranged. I feel this is going to boomerang --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Unless they make some changes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"-- unless the minister makes some changes. Instead of researching this the minister has been shooting with a shotgun instead of shooting with a rifle, and a lot of people are going to get hurt. The farmers in my area are very unhappy about this whole thing."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Speak to the leader, he thinks it’s fine."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"The member told the minister how to fix it up for the farmers. That’s what he’ll have to do."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"Now a farmer -- bear this in mind, and don’t forget it, I am an old politician; don’t you forget this, because farmers are pretty important to us in this country --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. McIlveen",
"text": [
"He is old, that’s right.",
"Interjection by hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"-- a farmer’s land is his pension, and the minister has destroyed that right here. It’s not in this bill. There is no way he can protect the farmer here."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"It’s only 10 per cent a year."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"As I said before, a farmer who has had his land for 25 or 50 years is not in the same class as a man who holds the land for six months. The minister doesn’t differentiate. He’s laughing about it. He thinks it’s funny."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. McIlveen",
"text": [
"Yes, it’s kind of funny the way the member puts it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"I can tell you this, sir, the farmer has no 40-hour week. He doesn’t go south for holidays. He can’t take a long weekend holiday. The cows have to be milked on Sunday as well as the other six days of the week."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Ruston",
"text": [
"That’s right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"Unfair to the cows."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"He has been anchored on that land for generations.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"The government says to him he cannot sell his land unless he pays that 50 per cent tax."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Nobody said that at all, that is a complete misrepresentation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"It is in here. Is the minister going to change it?",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"I haven’t heard many of the debates here but I heard my friend from Downsview making some pretty good remarks to the minister. I was talking to the accountant for a large development firm yesterday.",
"He said, “Is this actually going to happen”?",
"I said, “I can’t believe it.”",
"He said, “If a man has $100,000 profit on a deal, and is in a 60 per cent tax position, he pays the federal government $60,000 and he pays the Ontario government $50,000; so he’s paying 110 per cent tax.”",
"Interjections by hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"I can’t believe that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Let the member speak to his friends. It would be they who did it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"He wanted me to ask the minister personally if this is true. I said it is a fact. I think that those who have spoken have done a very great job and the minister has to make a lot of changes or he is going to be in real trouble. Motivation is a very important thing. I said to a guy one day, “How long have you been working for this firm?” He said “Ever since the day they threatened to fire me.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"A good story."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"Let the minister think about that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Ruston",
"text": [
"A very good point."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for York South."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the object of this bill, I suspect, is something that no member of this House would dare to object to and that most would support. The principle of this bill is quite another matter. There is such a gap between the professed object of the bill as spelled out in its name and what the government has got in the bill itself, that we are dealing with a completely different situation altogether.",
"What I would like to do on the second reading, in which one is supposed to deal with the principle of the bill, is to try to sort this out and to deal with it in overview. I’m not interested in getting into the detail of the Act and the loopholes and how one might contend with the loopholes because, quite frankly, for the moment they are irrelevant.",
"I was very interested to listen, for example, to the leadoff from the Liberal’s this afternoon where he concluded by saying --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"The member for Downsview led off."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"-- their inclination at the moment was to support the principle of the bill but when they saw the amendments they might change their mind. Now, the logic of that really threw me. If I were to be in what I think is his position, I would have said --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"How could the member tell?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Well, that is a good point.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"There might have been a logic in it if one said, “I’m opposed to the principle of this bill as it stands. Conceivably, I might change my mind when I see the amendments and if it is improved.” However, I suspect his problem is that he’s got to move from the fixed position that was established by the leader of his party in being in favour of it. So he starts out by being in favour of it and he might change his mind when he sees the amendments."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"That’s giving more credit to the member for Downsview than he deserves."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"That is a classic example of the confusion that sometimes harasses him."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"It is the convoluted thinking of the member for Downsview which is characterized by a total relationship with it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"That convoluted thinking is exceeded only by that of the member for Riverdale."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"By the member for Riverdale? Oh, no, the member for Riverdale was really on the beam. If the minister didn’t catch what he was saying, he is even more confused by this bill than we are."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"The amendments improved the principle, but not enough.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Enough of these interjections, let’s get on with the meat of the bill here."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"That’s not right. We haven’t seen a single amendment."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"If the objective of this bill, Mr. Speaker, as the provincial Treasurer foreshadowed it and as the Minister of Revenue stated it and as the Provincial Secretary for Resources Development who presumably has discussed it in cabinet and knows something about it confirmed later again this evening, if the principle of this bill was to bring more land on to the market for the purpose of providing more houses at a more reasonable price --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"It fails."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"-- then the bill fails and one can stop right there. The principle just is not operative.",
"Do you know, Mr. Speaker, if the principle, as everybody assumed of this bill, would really get at the speculators? Proof of the fact that it isn’t going to operate has been building up ever since the bill was introduced. It’s rather significant, I think, that those who presumably are going to be the victims of this bill have been unbelievably silent.",
"Oh, there’s been the odd neanderthal who took the bill at face value and hadn’t had the discussion with his lawyers, or even hadn’t read it and began to think of how he could get through any of the loopholes or around any of the comers. He may think that it really means what it says; but the great majority of them hadn’t been protesting and they’re not protesting because they know they’re not going to be victimized."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"That’s right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"They know they’re not going to be victimized."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"He is kidding."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"And as a matter of fact, the second proof of the bill as it stands isn’t going to be effective --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"That’s right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"-- is that the provincial Treasurer, from about 48 hours after he brought down his budget, made two or three speeches in which he said: “If this bill doesn’t do it, then we’ll bring in something else.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"That’s right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"In other words, he was conceding that the bill wasn’t going to be operative."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Absolutely right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"And there was his normal huffing and puffing that if it didn’t work he would bring in something else."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"That’s right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"But to my mind -- I mentioned this in my initial reply to the budget, but I’ve got to come back to it again -- for a piece of self-serving evidence, or testimony, or argument, that line in the budget was it; that the proof of the effectiveness of this bill was going to be the fact the government expected that they were going to raise only $25 million in revenue; and indeed it would be even more effective and they would be glad to see it get even less revenue. What self-serving nonsense. That is a classic.",
"The fact that the minister himself expected that he was only going to raise $25 million was proof of the ineffectiveness of the bill and --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Even the Minister of Agriculture and Food stood up and bowed to the Minister of Revenue."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"When one recognizes that, one understands why there’s been no outcry from the developers. As I already stated in this House I suspect there are 15 or maybe 40 or 50 different developers, each of whom has made $25 million in the last year or so. And the government is going to come in with a tax that will be effective in reducing the cost of land --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"In the last three months."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"-- and bringing more housing on the market, when from all of these big boys and all of the little people they’re going to catch in the net, all they expect to get is some $25 million.",
"The next rather interesting commentary on the principle of this bill and the effect it was going to create was in the reaction of the Toronto Real Estate Board. A few days after the bill came in they began to climb on the bandwagon, because they knew they weren’t going to be hurt, and to say that the government was to be commended. What they had achieved was some stabilization of the market; there was going to be a pause. There appeared to be a pause.",
"One could understand that. I suspect that every lawyer in the Province of Ontario has been devoting a good deal of his time to figuring out how to worm through the loopholes and around the comers of this bill. And everybody who is in the game of speculating, and a lot of little people who weren’t in the game of speculating, have been talking to lawyers to find out how the government was going to operate in this. What were the new rules of the game, they wondered, and therefore there might be a pause. But yesterday, Mr. Speaker -- perhaps you missed it -- the information came out that in the month of April the cost of an average home in Metropolitan Toronto had gone up from $50,000 to $54,000; so in the three weeks, roughly, after the budget has been brought down, when we thought we had a pause, the cost of an average home has gone up eight per cent."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Perhaps the hon. member could find a pause now."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"As a matter of fact, I could find a pause because that’s something to sleep on and give one nightmares: in the three weeks since this bill was brought in the cost of homes that the government is stabilizing went up eight per cent. That means that at that rate in the next year they will go up 100 per cent.",
"Mr. MacDonald moves the adjournment of the debate.",
"Motion agreed to."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"That’s the pause that refreshes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"What are we going to do tomorrow? Is the government going to withdraw this bill?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, as previously announced, tomorrow we will open the afternoon sitting with item No. 7, Bill 23, and, at the conclusion of that particular item we will move to item No. 6, Bill 22. The House will adjourn at 6 o’clock.",
"As announced previously, I believe I said that the Minister of Energy (Mr. McKeough) would return with his estimates on Thursday. Having hoped that we would have reached the conclusion of the second reading of this bill this evening, I would hold that option open for Thursday."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, by way of clarification, is the House leader saying that we might come back to Energy or we might come back to this on Thursday? Is that what he’s saying?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"We might come back to this on Thursday. I will inform the House tomorrow."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"We might come back to this."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"What about the emergency debate on the hospital strike?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"I have no decision in that regard."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"I see."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"We might get Energy next week.",
"Hon. Mr. Winkler moves the adjournment of the House.",
"Motion agreed to.",
"The House adjourned at 10:30 o’clock, p.m."
]
}
] |
April 29, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-29/hansard
|
HOME PLAN PRICES
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. S. B. Handleman (Minister of Housing)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I wish at this time to inform the hon. members of a basic policy change concerning the establishment of construction price levels for houses built on leased lots provided by Ontario Housing Corp. under the Home Ownership Made Easy plan.",
"One of the basic concepts of the programme is that house prices should not exceed certain levels. The original price limit in 1967 was $15,000, and last year prices peaked at $21,000 for a five-bedroom bungalow in Malvern.",
"Due to the construction cost price spiral, however, we have now reached the stage where our fixed price policy has been rendered ineffective, to the point where it is no longer serving the lot lease programme or the public.",
"Faced with rising prices, fewer and fewer builders last year participated in the land lease programme. In some locations OHC got no response to its calls while in others it was fortunate to get one viable proposal."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. E. Sargent (Grey-Bruce)",
"text": [
"That shows how effective the minister is."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"In order to revive builder interest in the lot lease programme, while retaining its basic objective of making home ownership available to moderate-income families, a more flexible approach toward building price limitations has been adopted.",
"When OHC is prepared to offer serviced building lots in a municipality, it will establish target prices for basic, no-frill houses. These prices will be based on current appraised building costs in the municipality and therefore may vary from location to location."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)",
"text": [
"That was the minister’s mistake with land, by the way. He shouldn’t make the same mistake again."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Builders will be invited to submit their best prices in relation to the target levels --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. A. Renwick (Riverdale)",
"text": [
"They’ll be the best for them."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"-- This means that some prices may be right at these levels, while others may be above or below the target levels.",
"Proposals will be judged in terms of four basic considerations: architectural merit, value, price levels, and the relationship to the income range that OHC is attempting to serve with this programme. The point rating system, which is used to evaluate builders’ submissions, will therefore give greater weight to those proposals containing prices below the target levels and to those proposals with prices that will serve a variety of income levels within OHC’s range.",
"OHC plans to market some 6,000 serviced building lots this year, and we are confident this new and flexible price policy will enable the building industry to respond in a positive manner and produce the houses so desperately needed."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"So what is 6,000?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Is that the extent of OHC’s involvement this year?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Boy, that’s massive. If ever there was a massive programme, that’s it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mortgage financing for this housing will be available through Housing Corp. Ltd, on a five-year term, amortized over 35 years at 8.75 per cent interest."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"This is the first concrete thing the hon. member has done as Minister of Housing. He is announcing an increase in the cost.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The first thing he has done since he became minister is to increase the cost of housing on OHC land. That’s some record since Feb. 26!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please. Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Why don’t the members opposite listen to the minister?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"The minister needs an accountant. That is massive housing."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please. Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"In order to make the benefits of low-cost housing available to a wider range of families, the upper income limit for single-income families has been increased to $14,500."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Two months today the hon. member has been minister, and this is his first statement."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"The limit for two-income families has been set at $17,000 and when determining the eligibility for such families, 100 per cent of both incomes will be included in the calculations."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, because I was barracking the minister I missed his last sentence. Did he say --",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Well, on a point of order, I admit it in advance. Did the minister say the minimum income was $17,000?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"No. The upper income limit for single-income families has been increased from $12,500 to $14,500, making more people eligible. The limit for two-income families has been set at $17,000; however, when determining the eligibility for such families, 100 per cent of both incomes will be included in the calculations."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"What about the people earning $8,000? What is the minister doing about them?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"It is what is known as upward flexibility?"
]
}
] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
BURNING OF WILDERNESS CABINS
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I wish to correct a statement I made in the Legislature yesterday concerning the illegal occupation of Crown land by a Mr. Dennis Hobischuck."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Ah ha."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. E. Stokes (Thunder Bay)",
"text": [
"The member for Port Arthur (Mr. Foulds) was right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Information has come to my attention this morning that the building in question, which was to have been removed from Crown land by officials of my ministry, was not dismantled prior to clearing the site.",
"It appears that a judgement was made that removal of the building was impractical due to distance and the cost of returning the materials for public sale. After the removal of personal effects, the building was destroyed by fire."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Legalized arson."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"While it is the policy of my ministry not to destroy a habitable building by fire, at the same time we cannot permit the deliberate construction on public lands of private dwellings contrary to the public interest."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The Minister of Energy (Mr. McKeough) practises theft. This minister practises arson. What is left to those people over there?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"A directive has been sent from my office to all field staff to ensure that this policy is rigidly adhered to."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. Shulman (High Park)",
"text": [
"Don’t burn down any more houses."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"That is a wonderful Friday morning statement."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The ministers are certainly doing well this morning."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Another announcement?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"What is the minister going to put to the torch this weekend?",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please. Order."
]
}
] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
RURAL SHOPPING CENTRES
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, on Feb. 4, 1974, in an address to the Ontario Association of Rural Municipalities in Hamilton, the hon. Treasurer outlined this government’s growing concern over the trend to locate major shopping facilities in rural areas of our province."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. E. W. Martel (Sudbury East)",
"text": [
"That’s all it is -- a concern."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"He’s concerned all right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"He’s going too."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"He indicated that the lack of adequate land-use controls in many rural townships has permitted the construction of certain shopping centres within these areas.",
"The lack of zoning allows such development to occur simply upon the issuance of a building permit --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Burn them down."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"-- without any investigation of the potential impact that such a centre would have. Without any zoning, a municipality cannot refuse a building permit even if it were inclined to do so.",
"I am sure all members are aware that a large-scale shopping centre can affect a very wide area and therefore its impact should be carefully investigated before such development is allowed to proceed."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"That’s what I have been saying about Riverdale riding."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"In the last year, a number of permits were granted for these shopping centres in direct conflict with this government’s policy, as well as being contrary to the provisions contained within local official plans.",
"It appears that a number of shopping centre developers have adopted a policy of seeking out those townships lacking adequate zoning controls, which are adjacent to small and medium-sized towns.",
"It has become apparent that it is necessary to introduce special measures to overcome this problem. This government is convinced that the proper agency to introduce these controls is the municipal council, and my staff in the past has spent a great deal of time trying to persuade rural councils to carry out this responsibility.",
"Although we have had a great deal of success in this programme, as can be witnessed by the great number of municipalities that have introduced planning measures, we have found it necessary to impose minister’s zoning orders on a number of municipalities over the last year.",
"Such orders, as you will recall Mr. Speaker, have been placed on the townships of Chatham, Raleigh, Harwich, Blandford, East Zorra, Vespra, North Monaghan, Goderich, Colborne and recently in Mono township. Also, three former townships in the new city of Timmins have been covered.",
"In these cases, we became aware of potential shopping centres because of information provided to us by the adjacent town or by the municipality itself. But in several of these cases a building permit had already been issued prior to our order coining into effect.",
"In recognition of this problem, my colleague, the Treasurer of Ontario, wrote to 70 municipalities in December, 1973, indicating our concerns about the lack of controls and informing these municipalities that the approval of shopping centres in rural municipalities could prejudice the long-range planning goals of the adjoining urban municipalities.",
"In February of this year, after this matter had become the responsibility of the Ministry of Housing, my predecessor in this portfolio (Mr. Welch) --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. T. P. Reid (Rainy River)",
"text": [
"How long was he the minister’s predecessor?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"-- again wrote to the majority of these municipalities requesting a report on the action taken by councils since receipt of the Treasurer’s letter."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"He wasn’t in there long enough to get an answer."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"The response which was received from these municipalities indicated that a few were about to begin planning studies or had been working on such studies for some time. A few municipalities indicated they had already reached the point where adequate local land-use controls had been adopted. The majority of others, however, do not appear to have taken steps to develop an adequate capacity to deal with their planning responsibilities for commercial land use.",
"Accordingly, in view of the seriousness of this situation and the lack of any significant local response to our requests for action, I have today most reluctantly imposed ministerial zoning orders on 62 municipalities. These controls have the effect of prohibiting only commercial development, except where it is in accordance with an approved official plan. These rural municipalities are listed as an appendage to this statement, which is being distributed."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"That means no October election."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Since this government has always encouraged strong local government, I am loath to take this step."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"Now he’s a comedian as well as a housing minister."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"However, I will assure the councils of the municipalities involved that the orders will be rescinded as soon as proper local land-use controls are developed. In this regard, I am pleased to state that my ministry is prepared to give assistance to those municipalities in the preparation of the appropriate planning measures. This may be in the form of financial assistance for the developing of zoning bylaws or staff assistance actually to prepare these bylaws.",
"I wish to stress also, Mr. Speaker, that during this period, the plans administration division of my ministry will ensure that applications to amend these orders to permit legitimate commercial operations will be processed as rapidly as possible. Every effort will be made so that those commercial uses which rightly belong in these rural townships will not be delayed in any way."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Oral questions.",
"The member for Kitchener."
]
}
] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
RURAL SHOPPING CENTRES
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)",
"text": [
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A question of the Minister of Housing following the statement he has just presented to the House.",
"Can the minister advise if he is prepared to cover all of the financial costs for the zoning bylaws which will now be proceeded with, hopefully as promptly as possible, in these municipalities which are now subject to his order?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, in the statement I indicated we were prepared to offer financial assistance or actually to sit down with staff and help prepare the bylaws. The form of assistance will undoubtedly vary according to the request received from each individual municipality. We are quite prepared to start talking to them on Monday or this afternoon if necessary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. V. M. Singer (Downsview)",
"text": [
"A supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"A supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The member for Rainy River."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. May I ask the minister, by way of supplementary, what is the time frame in regard to this ministerial order? Does it have to do with projects that are now under way or will be under way in a short time but where actual construction has not begun?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"No, Mr. Speaker, it’s effective from this morning as the filing of the ministerial orders takes place. My understanding is they have been completed at this time; they are indefinite but they have no retroactive application whatsoever."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"A supplementary, if I may."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The member for Scarborough West."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Then what the minister is saying is that Multi-Malls, outside Tillsonburg in Elgin township, will not be affected if it proceeds, and that all those who have taken options on land, particularly Multi-Malls, will not be affected in any way; the minister is dealing only with future possibilities. Well, that’s some policy."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, what we’re saying is that those who have taken building permits quite legally have a legal right to proceed and we had no legal right to do anything about them. That’s why we have taken this order. We had no legal right and we said we didn’t."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Of course the minister had a legal right through the Ministry of Transportation and Communications."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The member for Downsview with a supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the minister could tell us to what extent, if at all, his ministry is putting official plans on these municipalities on its own initiative? It is obvious that the availability of planning talent and probably the availability of money is almost non-existent in most of these municipalities. Is the minister availing himself of the provisions of the Planning Act which allows the minister to put on official plans?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, we still believe that the official plan initiation should come from the municipality."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Oh yes?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"We are prepared to assist in every way we can but I don’t believe that my ministry --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Now, now!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"-- wants to be in the position of imposing plans on a municipality with no consultation at all."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mrs. M. Campbell (St. George)",
"text": [
"The minister is kidding!",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Yes, that’s correct."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"That’s what he has done here."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Ruston (Essex-Kent)",
"text": [
"A supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The member for Essex-Kent."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Ruston",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, a supplementary of the minister.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Ruston",
"text": [
"Does this mean he will speed up approval of plans from many municipalities now in his offices?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Speed up his office -- as he has promised so many times."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, we have been doubling our output over the past two or three months and will continue to increase the rate of approvals.",
"Interjections by hon. Members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The member for Kitchener."
]
}
] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
DISCLOSURE OF MINISTERS’ ASSETS
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, a question of the Chairman of the Management Board of Cabinet, in the absence of the Premier (Mr. Davis).",
"Can the Chairman of the Management Board advise us when the assets of the cabinet ministers who were appointed two months ago will be tabled with the Clerk of the House in accordance with the stated policy of the government?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)",
"text": [
"No, I can’t give a definite answer but I’ll certainly get it for the hon. member."
]
}
] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
ROCHDALE COLLEGE
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"A further question of the Minister of Housing, Mr. Speaker: Is the minister aware that Rochdale College is for sale at $8.5 million, although we are told it needs some repairs?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"It certainly is not a very good buy.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Will the minister investigate the possibility at least of taking over that project for possible use as senior citizens’ accommodation?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. A. Grossman (Provincial Secretary for Resources Development)",
"text": [
"The member is kidding?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"There is on the walls what is called Tory graffiti."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, no offer has been made to us. If CMHC gains complete occupancy of the building and is prepared to discuss with us its possible conversion I am sure we are prepared to enter into discussions with them, but not until that stage has been reached."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"Only if they get vacant possession."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"They tried that a couple of years ago.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
}
] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
FOOD COST ALLOWANCES
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"One further question, Mr. Speaker, of the Provincial Secretary for Social Development.",
"Since food costs have increased by some 19 per cent since the last adjustment in the family allowance payments in January, 1973, and since a single parent with a child is paid only $250 in family assistance benefits --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"That’s in the winter."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"-- will the minister consider the recommendation of the Deputy Commissioner of Social Services in Metro Toronto and work through her policy secretariat to increase the allowance for food costs?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. M. Birch (Provincial Secretary for Social Development)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, to the hon. member, those claims are under consideration at the moment."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The member for Kitchener.",
"The member for Scarborough West."
]
}
] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
HOME PLAN PRICES
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Yes, a question first of the Minister of Housing.",
"Referring to his first statement and the accounting principles which he set out, what is it going to mean in dollar terms? What kind of percentage increase on the costs of a house or building materials are we really talking about? That wasn’t included in his statement."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, in the statement it was made quite clear that this would vary from location to location.",
"If I might use eastern Ontario -- an area that is dear to my heart -- as an example, the building price limits for detached three, four and five-bedroom houses have ranged from $17,050 to $19,300, under the ceilings. Now under the new programme there may be an increase for three, four and five-bedroom homes of approximately $500, $600 or $700 but it will vary from municipality to municipality based on target prices.",
"Of course, as to the question of what income groups it will serve, it is designed to serve the same income groups as before, based on the five per cent minimum down payment and the 30 per cent of gross monthly income which can be paid for carrying charges.",
"In a particular case, a person earning in the vicinity of $9,000 in Kingston township, for example, will be able to afford a three-bedroom home under our new proposal which is going out today."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"By way of supplementary, I take it that he is envisaging price increases on the $21,000 figure, which the minister used in his statement, of $1,000 to $2,000 per home on the average. If the minister is not, is he just using that kind of percentage relationship in eastern Ontario?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, what we are trying to accomplish here, first of all, is to get some houses built under the HOME programme over the 1,500 starts which occurred last year under the ceilings.",
"We are also trying to ensure there is a broad mix of housing ranging from the house for the $9,000 income earner up to our maximum now of $14,500. Our point system will be designed in such a way that the successful bidder will have to supply a broad mix of housing.",
"It may very well be that at the upper end of that the price will go up and it may go up in ratio to what the hon. member has stated. But there will continue to be a broad mix of housing and we expect to have four times as many starts under this programme as we had under the old programme."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"One more supplementary: He has now been minister for two months and there has been nothing specific said in the House about the Ontario housing action programme -- which developers he has settled with; how many lots; where they are serviced; how many homes -- this is his first announcement which implies or asserts an --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Is there a question coming?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Yes -- increase in the cost of housing. When will we hear about the Ontario housing action programme?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, as soon as we have some -- I have already stated on many occasions that this is a three-way partnership between the developers, the province and the municipalities. We expect to have some very concrete proposals made by one municipality in this area at a council meeting on Monday night. I would not want to pre-empt that council’s prerogative of announcing the programme in its own area."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. Cassidy (Ottawa Centre)",
"text": [
"A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.",
"The minister’s first concrete announcement is that the cost of HOME housing is going to go up when we expected some announcement that the cost of housing would be coming down."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Some hon. members",
"text": [
"No!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"That’s right. That is what happened today. It’s the first announcement."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"That’s right.",
"Can the minister say how many housing starts he expects this year under the HOME programme and how many starts next year and whether land is being prepared in order to ensure that the HOME programme will continue after 1974?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"I would like to thank the member for a chance to repeat what I said in the statement.",
"We plan to market some 6,000 -- and that is a minimum -- serviced building lots in such major centres as Hamilton, London, North Bay, Ottawa-Carleton, Sarnia, Scarborough, Sudbury and Thunder Bay, and in smaller centres such as Hawkesbury, Kenora, Port Elgin, Wallaceburg, Kingston township and others. That is four times the number started last year because of the fact we were not getting any bids --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"It is 4,500 more homes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"Four times as many as last year, I prefer to put it, Mr. Speaker. Also, we expect this programme to be expanded as our housing action programme results in firm agreements to permit the province to develop part of die private land which is now being held."
]
}
] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
METRO TORONTO HOSPITAL DISPUTE
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The member for Scarborough-West."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Yes, Mr. Speaker, may I address questions on the hospital workers’ situation to the Minister of Health? I expected the Minister of Labour would be --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. F. S. Miller (Minister of Health)",
"text": [
"He will be here."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Here is the Minister of Labour now. I’m asking him a question as he is coming in. Is he prepared to make a statement? Would he like us to revert to ministerial statements or shall I simply put a question to him and ask him to report on the breakdown of negotiations?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. F. Guindon (Minister of Labour)",
"text": [
"I will answer questions."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"All right. Could the minister make a report whenever it is convenient?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon",
"text": [
"Yes, Mr. Speaker, very briefly, I’d like to tell the hon. members that the mediation proceedings between the 12 hospitals in Metro Toronto and their relative locals of the Canadian Union of Public Employees were terminated early this morning. My mediators, Mr. W. H. Dickie, assistant deputy minister, and Mr. Vic Scott, director of conciliation and mediation, placed before the parties a basis for settlement, the terms of which provided a collective agreement to expire Dec. 31, 1975; a wage increase of $1.30 per hour over that period; a commitment to joint bargaining in the next round of negotiations; also a job security clause that would protect the employees; and a clause providing commencement of negotiations on Oct. 1, 1975, 90 days prior to termination of the collective agreement.",
"The proposals were acceptable to the hospital negotiators but the union committee declined to recommend their acceptance to their members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"By way of supplementary -- perhaps we’d better tell the full story then -- may I ask the minister, first, is he willing to discuss publicly the fact that he offered 66 cents in the first year to raise the average cleaner’s salary, the basis on which this is being discussed, to $3.66, compared to $4.64 an hour for cleaners in other parts of the public sector?",
"Is the minister prepared to discuss that in the second year he was going to raise it to $4.30 an hour, compared to $5.06 an hour in the other areas of the public sector, so that it would take until 1980 for the average wage of the hospital worker to catch up with his colleagues doing equivalent work in other sectors?",
"Why does not the minister also tell the House that the union came back and said, instead of offering us $1.30 over two years, we’re asking for only $1.50 over two years, just 20 cents more; or alternatively a fringe benefit package reflecting that 20 cents. And it was management that turned that down, and that’s what broke off the negotiations?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Is that accurate?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"In fact, it is accurate to the “t”."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, all I can say at this time is that I think this is perhaps not an overgenerous proposal, but I would like to tell the hon. members that, as far as we are concerned --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"No, it is not overgenerous."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon",
"text": [
"-- it is equitable and it is a fair and credible proposal."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"By way of supplementary, does this indicate that the Ministry of Health, in fact, has stated to the hospitals that it will provide extra money over and above the ceilings to provide for this wage settlement?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, that’s a question the Minister of Labour cannot answer. It would have to be asked of the Minister of Health."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. The minister hasn’t denied what the leader of the New Democratic Party has indicated as to what went on in the hearings. I want to suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, if that is the case the minister misinformed the House."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"That’s right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"It is so partial a story that it is calculated misinformation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"It’s a management position on the part of the minister."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"It is a management --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please.",
"First, it is not a point of order. I think the hon. member should not indicate that the hon. minister has misinformed the House. There is an implication by the member that he has deliberately done so."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"But he has."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"He has partially misinformed the House."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"As long as the hon. member is not accusing the minister of deliberately misleading the House, I can’t ask him to withdraw it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"I didn’t say “deliberately.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I don’t think he said deliberately."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"I said he “partially.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I did not think he said “deliberately.” Therefore there is no basis on which I can ask him to withdraw it, but certainly it is not a point of order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"By way of supplementary, does the minister think it is legitimate to invite a strike of 6,000 workers on Wednesday next for a difference of 20 cents over two years or the equivalent in fringe benefits? Is he aware that what the workers asked for in fringe benefits was three weeks’ holidays after one year, which they have in Newfoundland; that what they asked for was a day and a half sick leave per month, which they already have in several hospitals; and that what they asked for was full payment of OHIP, which they already have in several hospitals?",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The minister knows we are facing a shutdown of 12 Metro hospitals and he is allowing it to break down for 20 cents."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order. The hon. member has asked several questions. I think the minister should respond.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"It was a statement, not a question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Yes; but there were interrogations included in the remarks."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"It was a statement."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"No, it was a question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, perhaps my hon. friend from Scarborough West is not aware that the question of fringe benefits was decided. It was decided this would not be discussed in the package but that all the money available should go in the package. That’s a counter-proposal from the union."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The union was generous. They gave up a point."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon",
"text": [
"It was a counterproposal from the union. It was agreed by both sides before that all the money available would be put in the wage package."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Supplementary, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Yes,"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"If, in fact, this means a strike in our hospitals, what steps is the government taking to safeguard the health of the people of this province?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon",
"text": [
"The Minister of Labour never talks in terms of strikes, never. I think the hon, members of this House should be perhaps more helpful, more co-operative; because who wants a strike? I am sure my hon. friends opposite do not want it either."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Well don’t create conditions that lead to the inevitable.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon",
"text": [
"We think once the membership looks at the package --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Oh, the old game."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon",
"text": [
"-- sincerely, and takes time to see all that is there, we think the membership should really seriously consider what has been offered."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Who has a supplementary here? The hon. member --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Somebody should put a bomb under the Management Board."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Scarborough West."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Does the Minister of Health not think, given the continuing disparity in wages reflected in this management offer, that he could come up with the additional 20 cents over two years to avert a strike on Wednesday? Is that not a legitimate request?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"I think the member is playing one ministry against the other, Mr. Speaker, in the sense that my job is to say that I can or cannot provide the funds on the basis --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"I thought they were both in the same government."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"Which are you, Alphonse or Gaston?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"I am Gaston today, okay? My job is to determine whether I can provide the funds that the negotiators have agreed are fair. Somebody asked that question earlier, would I provide the funds for the settlement discussed today? The answer is unequivocally, yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"By way of supplementary, the minister will concede that the department lines have been open -- as everybody knows, as Mr. Dickie has admitted, as Mr. Scott has admitted -- throughout these negotiations to determine what the government would give. Will the minister give another 20 cents over two years to resolve this dispute?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"He is going to have to do something."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Does the hon. minister have any response to the question? Does the hon. member for Scarborough West have further questions?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"No, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"They are a penny-pinching bunch; 20 cents and they invite a strike."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for --",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Look at what we are talking about, $87 a week take home pay."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. Minister of Energy --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"That is what the minister spends on drinks here in a week. He is doing it deliberately."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"What is he doing deliberately?",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order please."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"He is committing the Minister of Labour to a management position.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, order please. The hon. Minister of Energy has the answer to a question previously answered.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Previously answered?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mrs. Campbell",
"text": [
"We don’t need two answers!"
]
}
] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
UNION GAS
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. D. McKeough (Minister of Energy)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, last Friday the hon. member for Scarborough West asked a question about whether we had had any complaints with regard to pipeline construction in Raleigh township. I have ascertained that there have been no complaints to the Energy Board, the energy branch of Consumer and Commercial Relations or the Ministry of Energy. However, we have been in touch with the officials in Raleigh township and have suggested they get in touch with the local representative from the energy branch of the Ministry of Consumer and Commercial Relations and the problem will be dealt with."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"The question is, are the NDP socialists?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Grey-Bruce, I believe, is first."
]
}
] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
ENIERGY BOARD COUNSEL
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, a question of the Minister of Energy. In view of the amazing revelation last night that Mr. Macaulay is being paid at the rate of $1,000 per day and has already received $170,000 in the last four months, I would like to ask the minister what guarantee do we have that --",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"-- other inside deals are not being made with friends of the government?",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"Secondly, does Mr. Macaulay’s contract or arrangement with the government carry on to infinity? How much will he make this year? Half a million dollars? How much?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"He will make a lot more than any of the hospital workers."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I can give the assurance that no deals -- not any other deals, no deals -- are being made with friends of the government. Mr. Macaulay has been retained by the Energy Board as counsel for the --",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"Mr. Macaulay has been retained by the Energy Board as counsel for the Hydro hearings, which will continue on this year. How long, I don’t know. Therefore, I think it is difficult to say how much will be paid to the Thomson Rogers firm and/or the consultants retained by Thomson Rogers. Mr. Macaulay has also been retained from time to time by the Ministry of Energy in certain constitutional and other matters -- and we fully expect to do so this year."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"Supplementary, then he could well make himself $365,000 this year as counsel here?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Is that a question?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"That’s a question; yes. Is that right or wrong?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"No, Mr. Speaker.",
"Interjection by an hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"Supplementary: How much is he going to make then?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, when we ascertain how long the Hydro hearings go on and we know what other actions -- not actions but interventions that Mr. Macaulay or his firm -- and it’s not just Mr. Macaulay; there are others in that firm who have been involved in the Hydro hearings and certain oil hearings. Out of that, from time to time, Thomson Rogers have retained consultants directly. So it isn’t a question of a payment to Mr. Macaulay of $345,000 or $170,000 -- or anything like that. How much it will be, we won’t know until the end of the year."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"The minister said $170,000 last night."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"I said $170,000 to the firm of Thomson Rogers."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"A final supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Yes, this will be final."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"Does Mr. Macaulay have carte blanche to hire any other counsel he wants at the rate of $75 an hour?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"No, Mr. Speaker, he does not. Before Mr. Macaulay -- in the case of the Hydro hearings -- hires consultants, he would check that with the Energy Board. He is, of course, subject to the total fees or subject to the amount which is approved from time to time by Management Board. The consultants that are hired by the Thomson Rogers firm or directly by the Energy Board in the various hearings may be at the rate of -- I doubt very much if any of them are at the rate of $75 an hour; some of them are less, some of them on an hourly basis might well work out to more."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Thunder Bay."
]
}
] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
REGIONAL PLANNERS FOR NORTHERN ONTARIO
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the provincial Treasurer. Why has it taken almost two years to enlist the services of a senior policy planner and several regional planners to restudy and to implement policy associated with the Design for Development for northern Ontario; and is this his ministry’s commitment to design for development; and why is he going to locate these planners in Toronto rather than having them in the field, where they would have a much closer liaison with the municipalities, as he announced in Dryden this last week?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. J. White (Treasurer, Minister of Economics and Intergovernmental Affairs)",
"text": [
"There is certainly a great demand for planners by regional governments, by ourselves and others; and I suppose the reason we are not able to hire as many as we would wish as quickly as we would like is because of that general shortage. I suppose this is not our fault.",
"On point No. 2, our inability to hire as many planners as quickly as we would wish is no reflection on our attitudes towards northwestern Ontario."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"The Treasurer started the whole mess."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"As my speech in Dryden a week ago today might indicate, as the preparations for the DREE announcement might indicate, as 101 different plans for northwestern Ontario might prove, we are deeply committed to economic progress in that area, with all of the social improvement that will involve. Now, we are establishing an important facility for the government of Ontario in Thunder Bay, and this will become a form of regional capital, so to speak."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"Sort of a mini-Queen’s Park."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"Whether or not it is wise to allocate planners to that office, I really don’t know. I expect that their services, which will be dedicated at some point to that area, will on other occasions be required elsewhere; and I suppose that by having a unit here in Toronto we can allocate those resources to different parts of the province as changing circumstances require."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"Well as a supplementary, does the minister not think it wise to have those people who are going to implement the recommendations contained in Design for Development that has become government policy -- does he not feel, since he now has a local presence in the municipal liaison committee that he is about to structure, does he not think it wise to have planners and implementers in the region rather than having them in the Frost Building down here?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. White",
"text": [
"We will be announcing a new regional office director very soon. We’ve been running a competition, as members may know. We had something like 135 applications, we’ve interviewed some large number -- I don’t mean myself, I mean a selection board created for the purpose -- and the successful candidate will be announced very soon. So we are moving resources into that regional headquarters. The programme is phased so that the number of people to be moved initially will be supplemented as the concentration continues and as we are able to digest these moves internally."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Rainy River."
]
}
] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
NUCLEAR GENERATORS MARKET
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question of the Minister of Energy. Is the minister aware of the speech made in Montreal by Mr. S. H. Russell of Atomic Energy of Canada Ltd., in which he indicates that by the year 2000 there will be something like $60 billion worth of Canadian money, particularly Ontario and Quebec money, spent on nuclear components, and his remarks that most of this stuff will be bought outside of Canada? Is the minister taking any action to ensure that at least some of these components will be able to be manufactured in Canada, particularly seamless carbon steel or stainless steel tubing? Has he had any discussions with AECL or even the provincial Minister of Industry and Tourism (Mr. Bennett) in regard to this huge field?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"I have only seen the press report, and I know there was no one from our ministry at that particular conference, although I believe there were people there from the Ministry of Natural Resources.",
"But in response to the question, I noticed the press report and I have already sent a memorandum to the chairman of Hydro and asked him for his comments. I think it’s something which we have to look at. Hydro, I imagine, have looked at it. In my view Hydro have, over the years, done a great deal, and I detailed this in a speech some time ago, to encourage Canadian technology, to encourage Canadian manufacturing. Turbo generators, which have been the subject of discussion in the House, raised by the hon. member for Scarborough West three or four years ago, is an emerging Canadian industry, or Canadian-located industry. It so happens that both major firms -- General Electric and Howden Parsons -- are foreign owned but through the action of Hydro in stimulating and apportioning the manufacture of turbo generators, two very strong, in my view, Canadian firms are being built and proof of the fact is that they’re now from Canada. One of them, General Electric, was awarded a contract at the Grand Coulee dam.",
"Hydro have made a policy of that sort of stimulation and obviously, if the figures are correct -- and I have no doubt they are -- which were quoted from the Montreal statement, there’s a whole lot more to do. I’m sure Hydro are getting along with it and they’ll have our full support."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"Supplementary, if I may, Mr. Speaker: The minister would agree then, in view of the fact that Canada and Ontario in particular have gone a long way in developing nuclear capacity, that it should be this province and this country that takes advantage of the hardware that has to be produced for it. I would ask the minister if he will have discussions with the provincial Minister of Industry and Tourism in regard to this to stimulate it?",
"And if I may, one more thing: Does the minister not feel that perhaps the almost monopoly position that CGE has in these matters is maybe one of the reasons why we haven’t more capacity in Canada to produce these kinds of materials?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"No, I wouldn’t agree with that, because the business is split between a number of firms. In terms of turbo generators, which are the biggest single items, I think perhaps more of them to date have gone to Howden Parsons than have gone to General Electric.",
"I’ve forgotten the name of the chap, in Milton I think it was or Georgetown, who was producing for Hydro. There are a great number of very small firms as well. Muirhead in Scarborough have been in to see me. Foster Wheeler in St. Catharines are thinking of stepping up their input into the whole nuclear generation business. And I’ve been handed a note to indicate that Industry and Tourism have already had a meeting and are approaching, with Hydro, the subjects raised in the Montreal speech by Mr. Russell. They had a meeting before the speech, as a matter of fact."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for High Park."
]
}
] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
ONTARIO HOSPITALS’ REPORT
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Thank you. I have a question of the Minister of Health, Mr. Speaker: How much money is being wasted as the result of duplication of services between his department and the Ontario Hospitals, as laid out in the report which was presented to him?",
"Point two, why has he not done anything about this duplication of services; and is that money equivalent to the 20 cents that is being asked for by the unions?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"I will start with the last question first, Mr. Speaker. The answer obviously would be no."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Why?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"It is not equivalent to the 20 cents being asked for by the unions.",
"The question of duplication of hospital services is one we are working on very steadily. It was brought up by one of the members the other day and I think we are making very admirable strides in the attempt to rationalize hospital services throughout the Province of Ontario. I have to say only this, that the place we run into the most resistance is not within our ministry, but within the communities which have a vested interest in the established institutions."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"The minister hasn’t heard anything yet."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Supplementary, Mr. Speaker, if I may: The minister has misunderstood my question. The duplication in this report refers to a duplication not between hospitals, but between the Ontario Hospitals on the one hand and his ministry on the other. My question was how much money is involved?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"I can’t speak for the number of dollars there, Mr. Speaker, but again we are on a course of rationalizing that particular type of operation. We have been moving a great number of people out of our own hospitals into community hospitals in the last few years. We are cutting staff at the rate, I think, of 200 a year at the present time in the Ontario Hospitals as we gradually shift the emphasis back to the community."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Supplementary, Mr. Speaker?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Yes, we will permit one more."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"If the ministry has cut staff, why is it the number of people on its payroll is going up?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"In my total payroll, I would think so; but I think you will find that the Ministry of Health’s --",
"Interjection by an hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"Not the Ontario Hospital section. “You are on my staff but not my payroll.” You have heard that statement made before."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"In the minister’s case it is the opposite way. They are on his payroll but not on his staff."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"They may be on the payroll. I think the federal government discovered a lot of horses there once, didn’t they?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"And a few other parts of the horse, too."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"Yes, well they sit opposite sometimes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Yes, they certainly do."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"It depends on the way the mirror works.",
"Mr. Speaker, this is an ongoing problem. I think the whole future of the Ontario Hospitals as such is really under review in our ministry right now, whether, in fact, district units should operate under our ministry.",
"I think if you check back to two years ago when we came out with our reorganizational plan for the ministry, it was stated that the ministry should get out of direct services such as the Ontario Hospital’s if, as and when it could."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Shulman",
"text": [
"Has the minister read the report? Has he seen it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"No."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Peterborough."
]
}
] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
CSAO TELEGRAM ON MAIL DELIVERY
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. M. Turner (Peterborough)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Chairman of Management Board. I would ask the minister if he is aware of a telegram which was sent by the CSAO regarding mail delivery?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I was ready to answer that question yesterday. I am not sure whether I have that information with me or not."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mrs. Campbell",
"text": [
"He was ready yesterday, but he doesn’t know it today."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Turner",
"text": [
"Nobody asked him."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, this is a rather serious situation, though maybe less so today than it was yesterday when it was much more current. Although the agreement, as I understand it, with the postal employees is not ratified --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"Who told the minister this?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"-- it then may be appropriate yet this morning. It is true there was a telegram forwarded from the directors of the CSAO, wherein the CSAO board of directors passed a motion on April 23 instructing all branch presidents to inform their members not to carry any mail for which they can be accused of strike-breaking, that is mail normally delivered by a postal worker. If in doubt on any issue, the office was to have been contacted.",
"I want to say, Mr. Speaker, that I believe that action on behalf of the CSAO was irresponsible due to the implications of many people who await and depend upon the cheques that arrive in the mail at this particular time of the month. We directed a letter back to the chairman of the CSAO, accordingly, informing them that we disagreed. I would like, if the members wish, to put the letter on the record. It doesn’t really matter much to me, but we did express our concern at that sort of message being transmitted to the members of the CSAO and we deplore that sort of activity."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The minister is not manipulating them the way he used to."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"My communication is wide open."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Waterloo North is next."
]
}
] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
PARKS IN SHELBURNE AREA
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. E. R. Good (Waterloo North)",
"text": [
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question of the Minister of Natural Resources. Due to the local concern in the town of Shelburne regarding the establishment of the Boine River Park and also Mono Park, does the minister have his studies completed far enough to tell us how much active farmland will be taken out of production by the establishment of the Boine River Park? How much tax loss will there be by the assessment of the municipalities; and what is the difference between the actual present tax and the amount which will be given under the Provincial Parks Act? And would the minister tell us whether there has been an environmental impact study completed for the Boine River Park and the Mono Park?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, this particular matter, and the matters to which the member is referring, have been very actively pursued by the member for Dufferin, is it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. Root (Wellington-Dufferin)",
"text": [
"Wellington."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Wellington?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"Wellington-Dufferin."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Wellington-Dufferin."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"He’s one of the minister’s colleagues."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"We’ve had several meetings with these two members, along with representatives from the various municipalities and the interested landowners. I’ve indicated to them at those particular meetings that we will tone down the size of the Boine River Park. I’ve asked our consultants to come up with some specific recommendations and when they are in my hand I will be prepared to make comment to the member on the questions that he’s asked."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"A supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Last week, at least the other day, it came to light the minister created a provincial park with a subdivision in it. This provincial park has a municipal landfill site in it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Is there a question?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"Will the minister ensure the town of Shelburne that he will not jeopardize the local landfill site nor will he impede the growth of the municipality by the establishment of this park right up against its eastern border? Will he ensure the municipality the roadwork in the area will be done prior to any development of the park so that their fears of this local municipality can be allayed?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Root",
"text": [
"The member is a month late getting into it. We have been onto this for a month."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"What has the member for Wellington-Dufferin done about it? They can’t even remember his name."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. A. Stewart (Minister of Agriculture and Food)",
"text": [
"The whole case was resolved before the member for Waterloo North ever heard of it.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Root",
"text": [
"The member is wrong for once; that’s for sure. We’ve been on that for weeks; before he ever heard of it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, let me assure the member that our approach to the development of the Boine River Park is the same as we’ve used for the development of other parks throughout the province. When there is an adjoining municipality all those fears which he’s raised are thoroughly discussed with the municipality and they are very carefully considered."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Wentworth."
]
}
] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
HAMILTON BAY PROPERTY
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question of the Minister of Natural Resources. What assurance will the minister give the House in any negotiations undertaken by his ministry with Lax Brothers in Hamilton for the acquisition of bay-front property owned by them, that from the point of view of the ministry the negotiated price will begin with the base of $280,000 -- give or take a few dollars -- which is the approximate amount that they have in fact invested in the property, rather than the $6.7 million which is the current appraised value?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I am not prepared to give any consideration to that particular question at this time, because there has been no decision to even purchase that particular property."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Is it true -- by way of supplementary question -- that the ministry is currently investigating the possibility of purchase of the property, and if it is true is the minister aware that Lax doesn’t own much of the property outright but rather has an option on the property which expires on Dec. 31 this year, and that the appraised value of the property is not, in fact, a reflection of its actual value?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, as I pointed out earlier, we are not dealing with any specific properties in that particular area. I set up a study within my ministry to look at the overall requirements of the recreational needs of the Hamilton area. We are looking at a number of properties and the Lax property may well be one of them."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"On the lake front."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The member for St. George."
]
}
] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
READMISSIONS TO ONTARIO HOSPITALS
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mrs. Campbell",
"text": [
"My question is of the Minister of Health, Mr. Speaker.",
"Could he advise this House why it is that when I asked a question of the Provincial Secretary for Social Development on when I would have information about readmissions to Ontario Hospitals, I was assured I would have it, and now the Minister of Health comes forward, changes that answer and says it will be released on a qualified basis? Who is directing this show? May I know what the qualified basis is and when I am going to get the material I asked for?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"First of all, Mr. Speaker, I believe I am the Minister of Health and as such I am responsible for that ministry. As long as we understand that we’ll be on the first step."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mrs. Campbell",
"text": [
"The provincial secretary has nothing to do with it?",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Held",
"text": [
"That’s the smartest thing he has said so far."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"The second thing I would say to the member is if she would read in Hansard the question she asked the other day and read the answer given by the provincial secretary, she will discover that she said she would get the answer to the question. She did not say she would release the figures and I believe she will confirm that.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"She simply said the answer to the question would be made available and she would see the member got it. She got it, and we have decided to release it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"That answer would be available."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"The word “qualified” is essential because unless we tell members why readmissions occur, they can misinterpret them; at least members will know why they occurred."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mrs. Campbell",
"text": [
"A supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Since this is a matter which should be public information, since the public is paying the price --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"That’s right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mrs. Campbell",
"text": [
"-- what is the qualified basis and when do I get the material I have been seeking?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller",
"text": [
"I cannot speak to the qualified basis until I have talked with psychiatrists and those people who are involved. They will give the member explanatory information and she will get it quickly.",
"I think she did us a service. I am not disagreeing with the question at all. I am very pleased she raised the point the other day in the House as to this question of readmission because it caused me, as the result of the provincial secretary asking the question of me, to find out what was the basis for the current policy. When I asked that question I discovered the basis was no longer valid. Having determined that, I elected to release the information on the basis that people would get some explanation with it so they could make their judgements."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"A supplementary, if I may, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"There are only a few minutes remaining and the member for Sudbury East has a question."
]
}
] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
HEALTH AND SAFETY HAZARDS AT ELLIOT LAKE
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"A question of the Minister of Natural Resources: In view of the fact that management at Elliot Lake refuses to continue any type of negotiations until the men resume work, could the minister use his good offices to persuade Denison that the men have a legitimate concern with 140 silicosis oases, and that he should sit down to start negotiations with the men?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I must admit to the member for Sudbury East that the member for Algoma-Manitoulin (Mr. Lane) also approached me last night with a similar request. I think he is aware that this particular strike is an illegal strike. They have a collective agreement and they have illegally walked out in the middle of that collective agreement. It’s a labour matter and possibly something that my colleague, the Minister of Labour should be looking into.",
"As I said yesterday in my comment, I am as concerned as the member for Sudbury East with the conditions in the mine."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"More so."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"We have been given a very lengthy list of a number of items and I have insisted my staff look into each one in detail. But I do say to the hon. members that some of the items that they have brought to my attention cannot be examined until the mine is in operation. This is one of the problems. For me to get directly involved at this point in time and try to break a collective agreement, I just don’t know how I could do it legally."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, sir, if I may: I want to say, and I have had it checked out, that the Minister of Labour has again inadvertently misled the House. In the negotiations with the hospital workers fringe benefits were never taken off the table. They were simply seen as something that would be discussed after the monetary matters had been reviewed.",
"I think the minister should be more careful in what he reports to the House about negotiations as sensitive as these."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Well, there is really no point of order. It is a question of an opinion by one member as opposed to that expressed by another."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"If the hon. minister wishes to respond, I will permit it"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon",
"text": [
"To reply very briefly, Mr. Speaker, I would like to know the hon. member’s source of information?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The minister wants to know my source of information? The source of information is directly from those involved in his ministry. That is the original source, although they have not spoken to me personally about it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon",
"text": [
"Certainly not from my assistant deputy minister."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"I don’t know who his assistant deputy minister is, Mr. Speaker, but no, the minister can set his mind at rest."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Petitions.",
"Presenting reports.",
"Motions.",
"Introduction of bills."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, sir, if I may. This is awkward, but I appreciate your giving me the opportunity to put it.",
"Under the legislative assembly of Ontario standing orders, order No. 30 allows for an emergency debate provided that notice is given in writing two hours before the sitting of the House.",
"The hospital workers negotiations broke down at approximately 4 or 4:30 this morning. Friday is a very difficult day in which to get a notice in writing to the Speaker two hours in advance of the sitting of the House, indeed the news of the breakdown of hospital worker negotiations did not actually come publicly across the airwaves until after 8 o’clock.",
"Mr. Speaker, this situation is so critical and is growing in proportion to the extent that I think it is a matter of urgent public importance. It falls squarely with standing order 30 as it was intended, and I would therefore like to ask, Mr. Speaker, that unanimous consent of the House be given to allow us to proceed under standing order 30 as it was intended."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I do not think it is a fair statement for the hon. member to say that the talks have broken down. It’s a --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please. With respect to the minister, I think before there can be any debate or expressions of opinion we must deal with the point raised by the hon. member.",
"The standing orders do provide that two hours’ written notice must be given prior to the sitting of the House in order to enter into the matter of whether or not the question to be raised, and whether the ordinary business of the House be set aside, is in fact of urgent public importance.",
"The request by the hon. leader of the New Democratic Party is simply to obtain unanimous consent of the House to waive the requirement to provide written notice two hours before the sitting of the House. This is as I understand it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Essentially that is it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Right. Do we have unanimous consent of the House to waive that notice?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Some hon. members",
"text": [
"No."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I regret that there are dissenting voices. We therefore cannot waive that notice."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Well, on a point of order, I want to know where the “noes” came from? I would like the members to be identified."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Well, I heard several “noes”."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The member for York North (Mr. W. Hodgson) was one. I want to know who it is that won’t allow the House --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I heard several “noes.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask you, sir, for an indication of from whom you heard the “noes” or to call the question again so that we can get it more clearly."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson (Victoria-Haliburton)",
"text": [
"We heard several."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"There is no provision in the standing orders to indicate those who dissent. I did put the question to the House. I said: “Do I have that unanimous consent?”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Can you put it again, sir?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I put it again: Do we have unanimous consent?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Some hon. members",
"text": [
"No."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"So there are several members who have said no. I think the matter is properly disposed of."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"I think it’s fair to say, Mr. Speaker, on the point of order, that the “noes” came from the government side of the House."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Do you know, Mr. Speaker, that the hospital workers are receiving $1.20 an hour less than --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Orders of the day."
]
}
] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
CITY OF BELLEVILLE ACT
|
[] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
ST. CATHARINES SLOVAK CLUB LTD.
|
[] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
CITY OF HAMILTON ACT
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)",
"text": [
"No."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Those in favour of second reading of Bill Pr3 --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I would like to speak to second reading, sir, if I may."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Okay."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Forgive me just in catching my breath.",
"Interjection by an hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I want to speak in opposition to the passage of this bill. And I do so, as I did before the private bills committee, in the earnest hope that the members who are here will listen to what I have to say.",
"I want to oppose it because I firmly believe that it is a wrong principle to establish. I want to oppose it because I think it is a precedent that is going to be set which will be detrimental and damaging to further judicial inquiries which may well be necessary. And I want to oppose it because I think the very fact that the city of Hamilton did not have the authority to do that which it is now asking for authority to do is an indication that we in the Legislature didn’t believe that that authority should have been granted in the first place.",
"Let me tell you what it is about, if I may, sir.",
"There was a judicial inquiry in Hamilton some time ago into the falling marble and general state of the city hall. That inquiry required that a number of people be called as witnesses. Those people were subpoenaed, as is the normal practice in an inquiry. And one of the people subpoenaed was one Stanley Roscoe.",
"Mr. Roscoe was subpoenaed because he had direct knowledge of the development and building of the city hall at the time it was built. Mr. Roscoe was subpoenaed because he was in fact the architect in the employ of the city of Hamilton at the time that it was built. Mr. Roscoe appeared at the hearing under subpoena, like every other witness. He, of his own volition, decided it was necessary for him to hire a solicitor. He decided that to protect his own interests it was necessary for him and his solicitor to be present at every single day -- 40 in number -- of the hearings.",
"Mr. Roscoe then decided, for whatever reason, to submit a bill to the city of Hamilton for, as I recall, some $79,000 for his attendance at this judicial inquiry.",
"I don’t deny for a moment it might have been better had the city of Hamilton decided to hire Stanley Roscoe as an adviser. I don’t deny for a moment that he might well have had some valuable contribution to make. But I do deny the right of a person subpoenaed to appear as a witness to submit a bill to any municipality for his being there and protecting his own interests.",
"Mr. Roscoe was on the witness stand for less than two days as a witness. He was on the witness stand for less than two days; he was paid the normal witnesses fees. I feel sorry that Stanley Roscoe felt it necessary to be there every day, and I feel sorry that he feels that his business suffered, and I regret that he had to hire a very expensive lawyer to defend his own personal interests. But I’ll be damned if I can see why the citizens of Hamilton, or the citizens of the Province of Ontario indirectly, should have to pay the bill. Now, I’m asking --",
"Interjection by an hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"-- that there be a consideration given to this bill unlike that which is normally given to private bills. It’s not often that members speak on private bills and I urge my colleagues from Hamilton who supported the bill -- the member for Wentworth North and the member for Hamilton West (Mr. McNie), I presume -- not to speak in favour of Stanley Roscoe getting paid, in favour of setting up a precedent of paying witnesses fees and then paying witnesses whatever it is that they submit as a bill for services rendered, services which were never hired, which were never contracted for and which were never agreed were necessary.",
"Stanley Roscoe went to the city of Hamilton and he asked whether or not the city required his services at that particular inquiry. He was told no."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. D. W. Ewen (Wentworth North)",
"text": [
"Well, the city made an error"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"It may very well be, as I said, that the city council made an error in not hiring him. If the city council made an error in not hiring him, then the city council has an obligation to find a way to rectify that error, but he can’t be paid for the witness time that he was there. If he gets paid for the witness time then every single witness who appeared there, who sat in that courtroom to protect his own interests, is equally entitled to claim payment. If they pay this one individual whose knowledge was extensive, then they may find themselves in a position of having to pay all other individuals whose knowledge was equally extensive and who were required to appear by subpoena before a judicial committee.",
"I ask the House, please don’t pass this bill. It is a bad bill. It is a wrong bill. It is a bill which will set up precedents which we in this House will not be able to afford and it is a bill which will make judicial inquiries extremely expensive. We don’t have many of them in any event. It is not as if it is an abused principle. They are set up very discreetly. They are set up after a great deal of consideration and there is no reason to suspect that anything other than what has gone on in the past will go on in the future.",
"I want to say this to you, Mr. Speaker. Think for a moment about witnesses at all kinds of inquiries.",
"I sat on the committee investigating the Hydro head office building. It was not unlike a judicial inquiry investigating a matter not unlike the matter of the Hamilton city hall. Every single person who had an axe to grind or every single person who knew anything about that particular development was required to come before the committee. Those people hired lawyers, extremely expensive counsel, the best in the city of Toronto, the best in the land. I urge members to consider that if we set this kind of a precedent they may feel, with some justification, since they were required to be away from their businesses and since they were required to spend considerable sums of money defending their interests, that they might reasonably expect to have their expenses and costs covered by this Legislature.",
"I also sat on the Workmen’s Compensation Board inquiry, as did other members of the House. At that same inquiry a number of people in the same category were called, all subpoenaed and they, too, hired expensive counsel. They, too, might have the same rights. Any future inquiry that will be conducted by this House could well be undertaken on the same basis as this which is being asked for by Stanley Roscoe.",
"I have no axe to grind with Stanley Roscoe. I don’t even know him. I met him tor the first time at the committee, and I wouldn’t have recognized the man if I had seen him before. I am sorry that he lost money. He gained in favour and he gained because his reputation was cleared. But I think the principle in this bill is a wrong principle. We in this Legislature should never consider it in order to safeguard any future inquiries that might be taken.",
"One final point, when a man works for the Steel Co. of Canada or when a man works for Dominion Foundries or when a man works for Algoma Mines and is required to take time from his place of business to go to a hearing as a witness, he is paid witnesses fees. His employer normally doesn’t undertake to pay him his normal day’s wages. It is a loss which is incurred by a witness at a trial or a witness at an inquiry. For most people, if you don’t punch in you don’t get paid. They don’t have a choice. They have to be there. Stanley Roscoe had a choice. He chose to be there. The costs are his, not ours. I urge members not to pass this bill."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Does any other hon. member wish to speak to this bill?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. D. R. Irvine (Minister without Portfolio)",
"text": [
"I would, Mr. Speaker. I’ve listened with interest to the hon. member’s comments, and it’s my understanding that this bill received consideration during the private bills committee meeting, at this particular time. The hon. member was present, I hope."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"I was there and spoke."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Irvine",
"text": [
"And spoke."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"The minister might have been there, too, since he was interested in it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Irvine",
"text": [
"I think probably I was."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"He was not."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Irvine",
"text": [
"I’m just pointing out to the hon. member that I think he had ample opportunity at that time to convince the members of the committee whether or not this bill --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I don’t require to be chastised by the minister for raising a matter which is rightfully raised before the House here today. I don’t require to be lectured by the minister on where I should make my point."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"There’s no point of order. Order, please!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"I’m entitled to sit in the House and I don’t need his backchat."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Perhaps the hon. member doesn’t need it, but the hon. minister has every right to express an opinion. That’s all he was doing.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Irvine",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I think the private bills committee took into --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"He wasn’t there."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Irvine",
"text": [
"-- full consideration all aspects of this particular bill. It is the right of the elected people of the city of Hamilton to bring forth a private bill. They have chosen that right. They have asked the committee to approve it and it has been approved. And regardless of the views of the hon. member, I say that since the private bills committee has approved it, we in this Legislature should also approve it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"This is not an automatic place, for heaven’s sake. That’s the purpose of this item on the order paper."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. D. C. MacDonald (York South)",
"text": [
"I would like to go back to the record and document how often the government has overruled a decision of the private bills committee."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Ruston (Essex-Kent)",
"text": [
"As a member of the private bills committee, and having sat through the sessions on this particular bill, Mr. Speaker, I recall a fair amount of discussion on it. There were amendments from the original bill and the bill was amended in the private bills committee. The original wording had “damages” -- costs, damages and so forth -- and “damages” was taken out and the wording was changed to include “pay all or part of the costs incurred.” There was considerable discussion, as I’ve said, in the private bills committee and I’m concerned about the method of this type of legislation.",
"About a year ago I got up to speak briefly on the second reading of a private bill, and I was chastised by the Speaker, whoever was in the chair that day, that in effect we weren’t really supposed to speak in opposition to or in support of these bills, that they were private bills and when the committee passed them then it was assumed that the Legislature here would automatically pass them. I’m not sure that I like this procedure of the way we bring a private bill to a committee, and as long as the seven, eight or 10 members of the Legislature in that committee pass it, then the rest of us here, the 117 here, are supposed to accept that.",
"Normally, if something is passed in the committee it is then brought to the Legislature and can be voted on. But as far as I’m concerned on this particular bill, Mr. Speaker, I agree with it in principle. I think we did alter it enough to satisfy the majority of the members of the committee and it now is left in the hands of the city of Hamilton council who have sole responsibility, and they are elected people."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I don’t want to speak to the substance of this, but there’s a point raised by the minister that I think should be clarified, and I would just like to attempt to clarify it. On many, many occasions decisions taken in the private bills committee have been brought back to this House. On some occasions they were decisions that were taken by a majority of government members and were brought to this House and reversed by the cabinet because the cabinet didn’t agree with them. So, the proposition --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)",
"text": [
"The university bills."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"The university bills, right. I wasn’t trying to cite any one because I haven’t gone back to check on it. Normally a bill coming to the private bills committee is finally decided there and it doesn’t have to come to the House. That’s the normal rule. But there are exceptions, and this is the superior body and this is where we deal with those exceptions."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. J. McNie (Minister without Portfolio)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, because I had to attend a cabinet meeting at the time this item was discussed, I didn’t have an opportunity to speak to it. I would just like to make one or two brief points.",
"First of all, I think Mr. Speaker, the issue here is whether an injustice has been done to an employee -- and I repeat, to an employee -- of the city of Hamilton, and whether the city of Hamilton should be given an opportunity to correct that injustice, which the speaker opposite has indicated might well have been done, in his not being called as an adviser, and in the long hearings having vindicated him but not without considerable expense to him and his reputation, notwithstanding what one may say, I think, Mr. Speaker, this bill should be passed without any further discussion."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Are there any other members wishing to speak to this bill?",
"While there have been certain comments made which were not raised as points of order, I believe they actually were points of order and I believe that while the Speaker is not to enter into debate I should clarify my position as Speaker since it was alleged that a ruling had been made.",
"I do not recall having made any such ruling that there would be no debate. In fact, I believe it is quite in order to debate a private member’s bill at second reading.",
"Motion agreed to; second reading of the bill."
]
}
] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
CITY OF HAMILTON ACT
|
[] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
WELLINGTON COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION ACT
|
[] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
NIAGARA PENINSULAR RAILWAY CO. ACT
|
[] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
INCORPORATED SYNOD OF THE DIOCESE OF ONTARIO ACT
|
[] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
TOWN OF STRATHROY ACT
|
[] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
ROOTS DAIRY LTD. ACT
|
[] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
TOWN OF INGERSOLL ACT
|
[] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
TARA EXPLORATION AND DEVELOPMENT CO. LTD. ACT
|
[] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
TOWN OF WALKERTON ACT
|
[] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
CITY OF KITCHENER ACT
|
[] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
CITY OF ORILLIA ACT
|
[] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
DIAMOND AND GREEN CONSTRUCTION CO. LTD. ACT
|
[] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
VICTORIA HOSPITAL CORP. ACT
|
[] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
BOROUGH OF NORTH YORK ACT
|
[] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
UNIVERSITY OF WESTERN ONTARIO ACT
|
[] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
WATERLOO-WELLINGTON AIRPORT ACT
|
[] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
CITY OF CHATHAM ACT
|
[] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
SAVINGS AND INVESTMENT TRUST ACT
|
[] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
LAKE OF THE WOODS DISTRICT HOSPITAL ACT
|
[] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
PRESBYTERIAN BUILDING CORP. ACT
|
[] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
CITY OF WINDSOR ACT
|
[] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
CITY OF LONDON ACT
|
[] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
THIRD READINGS
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Shall the motion carry?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"No."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Those in favour of third reading of the bill will please say “aye”.",
"Those opposed will please say “nay”.",
"In my opinion the “ayes” have it.",
"I declare the motion carried."
]
}
] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
THIRD READINGS (CONTINUED)
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The motion is for third reading of Bill 26. Shall the motion carry?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"No."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Those in favour of furthering Bill 26 will please say “aye.”",
"Those opposed will please say “nay.”",
"In my opinion the “ayes” have it.",
"I declare the motion carried.",
"Motion agreed to; third reading of the bill."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Clerk of the House",
"text": [
"The 19th order, House in committee of supply."
]
}
] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
ESTIMATES, MINISTRY OF ENERGY (CONTINUED)
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Last night when we adjourned we were dealing with votes 1801 and 1802. Does any speaker wish to speak on 1801?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. E. Sargent (Grey-Bruce)",
"text": [
"Yes, Mr. Chairman."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Grey-Bruce"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"I have a few brief questions, Mr. Chairman. With regard to the estimates last night, the minister made a statement, and in Hansard he was quoted as saying that BP was still making less than 10 per cent return on its investment and I interjected with, “Is that bad?” The minister said, “I would say it is completely wrong when I can make 11 per cent on someone’s mortgage.” I said, “One per cent, you mean.”",
"My point is, Mr. Chairman, is that the man who is in charge of spending $2 million under this estimate and who is also charged with directing $8 billion of Hydro funds, doesn’t know that money today is worth about 11 or 12 per cent. He thinks he is making 11 per cent profit on an 11 per cent mortgage. In other words, here is a man entrusted with all these moneys and he thinks it is okay for the oil companies to make 45 to 70 per cent profit over last year. He thinks they should be making more than 10 per cent and 18 per cent like Imperial is on invested capital. He comes up with a brainwave; I’ll say again just for the record, he said “I would say it is completely wrong where I can make 11 per cent on somebody’s mortgage.” That is the intelligence of the man who directs this ministry."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"What do you mean, order? He is the one who is out of order. He does not know what in hell is going on."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Let’s get back to the vote."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"I would ask the minister --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. D. C. MacDonald (York South)",
"text": [
"The minister must have patience."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. S. Lewis (Scarborough West)",
"text": [
"In fact, your patience is infinite."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"Insofar as this energy policy is concerned, Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the minister what coverage is Ontario Hydro, in consort with AECL, giving insofar as protection and insurance are concerned to the people of Ontario at this point?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. D. McKeough (Minister of Energy)",
"text": [
"I don’t think that is a question I can answer. I don’t think AECL is providing insurance. The organization which is perhaps providing not insurance but which is charged with the responsibility for safety is the Atomic Energy Control Board. I think it has as high if not higher standards than anybody in the world."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, in this ministry and the area in which I live, we have had a $1 million mistake at Douglas Point. We have had leakages and they are closing the park; they are putting up huts to protect the people. It’s a matter of record that no insurance company in Ontario or Canada will give any insurance against nuclear power radiation.",
"The insurance companies have watched the growth and burgeoning of the nuclear power programme and have lost no time in taking steps to protect their industry. They have, Mr. Chairman, specifically planned to protect the insurance industry against the nuclear power industry. I ask anyone in this Legislature, anyone in Ontario, to check their insurance policies on anything they have -- property, buildings, life or anything or personal safety. They will see there is complete exclusion from the hazards of nuclear power.",
"In Douglas Point we have had, as I said, two gas leaks. Two years ago they made a $1 million mistake and they would have covered this up but I found it out by accident. I brought it up in the House and they denied it in the House. They finally admitted there was a $1 million mistake and they are now building huts to protect the people up there. They are closing our park because of fallout and radiation and the odours and dangers.",
"I asked the minister, Mr. Chairman, in the House a month or so ago about the fact that the officials of the Atomic Energy Commission of Canada have refused to meet scientists, the ones who have written the book called, “Poison Power”, and who are the outstanding authorities in the case against nuclear power plants in America. They wanted to come to Canada to go on television to discuss the situation here with people and to let them know what is going on. The officials of AECL have refused to meet these scientists on a TV show and to let the public know the facts and the hazards. I asked the minister about this and his response to me was, “Talk this over with your friends at Ottawa.”",
"The minister is the one who is charged with this programme here in Ontario and he is the one who should have some answers. What is he afraid of? What is he trying to cover up? Why doesn’t the minister tell the people and let them know the facts and what’s involved in this $8-billion programme that he is involved in? The problem with nuclear radioactivity is that there is much more long-lived radioactivity produced in one large nuclear power plant every year than there is in the explosion of about 1,000 Hiroshima bombs. When I say long-lived radioactivity I mean long-lived. Some lasts for 100 years, some for 200 years and even 240,000 years before decaying fully.",
"Get this, Mr. Chairman, on the energy programme we are involved in. Unprotected, above ground nuclear power plants loaded with radioactivity in their cores would certainly be large liabilities in this country if we were ever under attack. They seem, I believe, to make this country completely indefensible. Aside from the fact of sabotage or an accident, allowing just one per cent of the inner radioactivity to escape from one plant would put as much harmful contamination directly into the environment as 10 Hiroshima Bombs. It would not be spread out all over the atmosphere, it would be concentrated in just one or a few areas.",
"Instead of the government preventing this extraordinary possibility, hell-bent as they are on the programme we are now involved in, we have observed that the government allowed harmful conditions to happen in Lake Erie, in our air and water, for example, and other pollutants. It is clear that the citizens had better not hope for the government to save them from the dangers we are faced with in nuclear power. Under the same energy programme, I am concerned about the fact that there is no insurance coverage against it. The insurance companies do not trust this source of energy.",
"Regardless of this minister and his friends and vested interests involved in the great profits, I am told by an authority in Hydro that, if you think, Mr. Chairman, there was hanky-panky going on with Mr. Moog and the Premier (Mr. Davis) in the $44 million deal of the building of the Hydro building, you should see what is going on in the contracts being let in the $8-billion programme in buying equipment on a no-tender basis.",
"We could talk forever about this and I know we will never get through. The facts are that the people do not know what they are involved with.",
"What I am concerned about, as I mentioned last night, is that we have, Mr. Chairman, ongoing secret negotiations with about 60 major firms, most of them all-American, to get them into the act and, to use the words of the minister, give them a piece of the action of Hydro. The minister conceded last night that they have boiled them down to five firms and they are going to announce to the House what five firms have a piece of the $600 million action, as he calls it.",
"I think it’s an insult to the people of Ontario that these deals can go on behind closed doors to sell out Hydro to the vested interests which this minister and this government protect. So I insist, Mr. Minister -- and I would hope you would answer this -- that you tell the House who the five firms are and that these firms are not foreign controlled at this point, which will take a large bite out of the future rates of Hydro and the people of Ontario. I wait for your answer on that point right now."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"I indicated last night, Mr. Chairman, that I wasn’t yet aware which were the five firms which have made proposals. As for the 60 firms, I don’t know whether there were that many that the material went out to, or whether they all expressed an interest or not. I am not sure. That information has not yet come from the board of directors of Hydro to me. When it does, I will be glad to answer the question, but it is a matter which is being considered by the Hydro board at the moment and on which no decision has been reached, to my knowledge, and therefore it has not come forward to me.",
"So I simply can’t give the member the answer to the question, but I can say this, to my knowledge a number of firms which expressed interest were American firms, American firms located in Canada, 100 per cent Canadian-owned firms, British firms, and I think somewhere I seem to recall there was interest from a German firm as well, but as I say, this is in terms of financing particularly and they were not all American firms. There was a sizable representation of Canadian interests on the list of interested parties.",
"The member asked a couple of other questions which perhaps I could clear up now. The member did ask in the house about AECL officials refusing to meet with certain scientists. AECL is an emanation, a Crown corporation, of the government of Canada and I certainly can’t account for it. However, Hydro did send the member’s comments in the Throne debate to AECL, and they have no knowledge of any request which has been made to AECL officials to appear on any televised debate in Ontario. They have, in fact, appeared on a number of television programmes in various parts of Canada, but specifically they don’t know what the member is talking about in this particular instance. I suppose if he has more specific information they would be glad to try and indicate why --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"His name was Dr. Dewar of AECL. I gave you that before."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"Dr. -- well --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"AECL."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"Well, all I can go by is that AECL have indicated that to their knowledge, their people have not refused to appear in debates. They do express the reservation that they have appeared in debates. They can’t always do so. They would prefer to debate, I think, with Canadian people rather than with imports from across the border, which seems reasonable, but they do their best, as do Hydro, to meet public requests for information, for debates, for speeches and so on, and in my certain knowledge, AECL have been most forthcoming and willing to appear. Dr. Dewar, I am just informed, is not with the --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"AECB, I am sorry."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"He is with AECB, which of course is the safety arm of the government of Canada. I don’t know that we have been in touch -- yes, Hydro contacted the president of the board of AECB and they have not been requested to take part in any debate on radiation effects or nuclear power, so that’s the only information I can give the member.",
"The member also talked about insurance and I am informed that the federal government indemnifies the utility or contractors against claims arising from nuclear hazards, that is, damage arising from a nuclear accident, and in fact the government of Canada is carrying the insurance."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"How much is the coverage?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"I think it is unlimited."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"I suggest the minister doesn’t know what he is talking about -- and further, Dr. Dewar of AECB told me that he “refuses to sit with critics who would attack us.” That is his quote to me and I challenge the minister to get him up off his butt and to find out why. We are the ones concerned here, not AECB; it is the people of Ontario I am concerned about and who should know exactly what is going on."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"The doctor, of course, is in effect a federal civil servant and I have no authority to move him from --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"Well the minister had better get some authority if you are going to run that ministry. The minister had better know what is going on."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Windsor West."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"I still have the floor, Mr. Chairman; I am still on the floor.",
"The area that I am concerned about is the Douglas Point area. We have a report from Mr. Norman Pearson with regard to the Bruce nuclear power development and the adjacent municipalities and the preliminary assessment of the impact it is going to have on our area. Has the minister seen that report as yet?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"I don’t know that I have specifically seen that. Hydro has commissioned a report -- the Dillon report -- which is an impact study on the whole of Bruce county and the area; a financial report covering a whole variety of areas. That report is in the process of being produced. As I recall, it was going to be available probably this June. They are meeting with local officials, with school boards, with the hospital board, with whoever wants to come forward -- and certainly the municipal councils. Out of this will come probably recommendations as to what Hydro should do or not do in terms of -- not minimizing the impact, I suppose easing the impact might be a better word, of the very large construction programme which will be under way at Bruce."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"Mr. Minister, we are talking about and looking at $22 million of money which will have to be forthcoming from somebody, according to this study. We need, for example, in the town of Chesley, $1,786,000; Port Elgin, $3,012,000; Southampton, $2,147,000; Paisley, $836,615; and the townships of Bruce, Huron, Kincardine and Saugeen, they range from $765,000 to $1.5 million.",
"I am most concerned that the government is going to go this dangerous route for power, when we have ample hydro power in the north country. There are millions of lakes up there that will provide all the power we will need and we have a cushion right now of power.",
"We are almost bankrupt in this province. We are paying now about $2.5 million a day on the debt we owe; we are pioneering for the world. Let somebody else do this hell-bent nuclear power search the government is on now. The minister in his own words said that although “we are not broke we are going to be drained severely.” So the government is now looking for help from the private sector to continue.",
"I want to ask the minister one thing before I sit down. We have been committed for another $3 billion since the minister took office. Now, was that $3 billion on the plan being borrowed by Hydro, or did the minister put it into effect? The minister has stepped up the programme to an $8 billion programme."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"The programme has not been stepped up just since I have been minister; the programme has gone forward since the time I have been minister."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"Mr. Minister, in the last four months we have stepped the programme up to a new figure -- it is an $8 billion commitment in Hydro, and that is a fact."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"Over what period of time?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"Until 1982."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"It goes much beyond that. There has been no substantial change in the figures, and there have been really no large tender calls yet in terms of the nuclear programme. As those calls come in, I imagine the figures will be adjusted; but there has been no increase in the megawatt --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"The minister knows that when he took over there was a $3.5 billion programme -- and now that has jumped to $8 billion. I want to know: Did he start that or did Hydro start that?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"Hydro."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"Okay, thank you."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Windsor-Walkerville. We had better alternate."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman (Windsor-Walkerville)",
"text": [
"I won’t be long."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"It is all right. He was on his feet; he won’t be long."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"Thank you, Mr. Lewis.",
"Mr. Chairman, I wanted to make a few comments concerning this estimate and one is the need for some clarification on the part of governments -- not necessarily the government of Ontario -- concerning nuclear energy. Because when one reads in the paper, you get one point of view one day that it is extremely hazardous, dangerous, that people are going to be subjected to all types of radiation; and the next day you read a completely opposite point of view.",
"The minister knows of the Fermi plant in the State of Michigan, on the way to Toledo out of Detroit. That plant was started in 1955 and has never been active; it has had problems ever since, and that’s going on to some 19 years. In addition, when we look at the State of Michigan, we see that they are going to have 10 large atomic plants by the year 1983. I know their technology is different from ours and, as a result, there may be some types of radiation hazards. But as the winds are prevailing westerlies, and if radiation is generated as a result of faulty construction, poor technology and so forth, naturally the fallout would effect the Province of Ontario.",
"I think it is incumbent upon governments -- our own, provincially and federally, even world governments -- to perhaps clarify once and for all the hazards that we may be subjected to as a result of the amount of technology we have today or our lack of technology in relation to the use of atomic energy.",
"Could I get a response from the minister on that? Then I have two other items I would like to talk about."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I suppose the latest study so far as Ontario is concerned, would be the report No. 3 of Task Force Hydro, which indicated that so far as we are concerned, nothing can be completely guaranteed but that in their view -- and I think we accept this -- the Candu system is a safe system and that every step is being taken to make it as safe as possible. I think the evidence of scientific opinion in this country, certainly in this country, would support that.",
"But when one picks up the paper, I quite agree, one finds someone sounding off every second day that nuclear power is unsafe. I don’t suppose this will ever be completely resolved to anybody’s satisfaction. Certainly I am not capable of saying whether something is safe or not. We rely on the advice of experts, and I think the experts who not only advise the Ontario government but the government of Canada, through the Atomic Energy Control Board -- and the advisory committee includes Ontario civil servants -- are satisfied that what we are doing, we are doing in as safe a way as is possible. It’s a value judgement.",
"There is no question, I suppose, that an automobile is not as safe as a horse and buggy, but a decision was made by society that we liked automobiles. And it’s our decision that we like cheap power, hopefully -- and it is -- safe power, therefore we have gone nuclear.",
"The member for Grey-Bruce talked about waterpower; that simply isn’t correct. He talked about all the lakes in northern Ontario. The fact is, I think -- the member for Sudbury (Mr. Germa), has asked this question on several occasions -- that, as I recall the figures, there are about 2,000 mw or 3,000 mw of power which might be developed in northern Ontario, roughly the size of the Pickering nuclear generating station.",
"I think it is also fair to say that my friend from Thunder Bay and the member for Rainy River (Mr. Reid) would say that it will not be easy to develop most of those sites because of the legitimate concerns of the local people, of the native people. I recall the difficulty that the hon. member for Lambton (Mr. Henderson) got into when he suggested playing around with a little bit of water in the north.",
"I don’t say that Hydro won’t develop that 2,000 mw or 3,000 mw, or some part of it, in the next few years, the next decade or two or three decades. I think it will not be an easy thing to do and it certainly won’t be done until we’re sure there are full studies of the environmental, economic and socio-economic impact on the area and on the people. To simply say we should be developing waterpower -- it is an alternative which is no longer open to us.",
"In the country as a whole we have enough; there is enough unused waterpower, something like 40,000 mw or 50,000 mw, roughly the amount the country is now using totally to generate electricity. There are enormous resources still of unused waterpower but very little of it is in Ontario; quite a bit of it is in Newfoundland and I suppose a lot of it is in British Columbia. In British Columbia the further development of waterpower is practically coming to a standstill because of environmental reasons. That is not true in Newfoundland and probably not true in Labrador.",
"I think the country as a whole will develop considerably more electrical power from water sources but that is not really an option which is open to us in Ontario."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"Thank you."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"I am told that plant, by the way, has produced power; not much, but it has --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. F. A. Burr (Sandwich-Riverside)",
"text": [
"Twenty-six days."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"Six days?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Burr",
"text": [
"Twenty-six days."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"I would have to say, of course, that it points up the superiority of the Canadian system."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"I am not going to argue with that, Mr. Chairman; I would always hope that we were a match for, if not superior to, many other parts of the world. We may be a little slow at developing certain other types of exotic energy but I personally would prefer to see a lot of the experimentation being done and the heavy financial outlay being expended by countries which are a little more affluent or have greater financial resources than we have. I think we can benefit by a lot of experimentation which goes on in other jurisdictions.",
"Time magazine on May 7, a year ago, had a very nice article concerning other exotic sources of energy -- maybe not exotic but other sources of energy. They mentioned in their article that Russia will in a very short period of time obtain 10 per cent of its electrical energy from a new source called magnetic hydrodynamics. According to their information, it is supposed to be the most efficient power generation scheme. Naturally, they would always claim that theirs is the most efficient. Anyone who develops a scheme claims that his scheme for the generation of power is the most efficient.",
"Magnetic hydrodynamics creates an electric current by passing a stream of hot ionized gas at high speed through a powerful magnetic field and it operates, so they claim, at 50 per cent efficiency. I think we have to look -- and I would assume that the minister’s officials as well as the officials on the federal level are looking -- at experimentation which is going on in all jurisdictions.",
"I don’t think we necessarily have to send all of our specialists to all of these meetings but we would be getting -- I think the minister’s officials are capable and intelligent enough to keep abreast with what is going on in all parts of the world as far as the generation of energy is concerned."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"They want to go but I’m afraid the member on the right is going to check up on how much we are going to spend on lunches and so on."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I am speaking for myself only."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"One of the 22 Liberal positions."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"There are only 19 on your side."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"But we have immense solidarity."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"Just on what you’ve said, because I am interested in what you say. What you have said is you wonder why Canada, as a small country, put the resources it did into a particular brand of nuclear programme. I could wonder about that, too.",
"When one looks back, it has been an enormous gamble. When one looks at the lack of success in the United Kingdom and to some extent the lack of success in Toledo, right next door to us, one wonders, quite frankly, at the courage which AECL, the government of Canada, Hydro and this government have shown. I’m somewhat staggered by what we did, and we’ve been more than lucky. We’ve been successful and Canadian technology and hard work have produced something which is highly successful.",
"What you’re also saying though, I think, is should we be looking at other things which to some extent is in contradiction to the point that you’ve made. If you feel that perhaps Canada was awfully venturesome in going the Candu nuclear route, and I could agree with you, then perhaps it’s better for us to sit back and see what some other people are doing before we go that route again. This is one of the reasons why I feel it’s important in going the next step, whatever it may be, if we can find a partner, and the UK looks like a reasonable partner."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. E. Stokes (Thunder Bay)",
"text": [
"Is the minister saying that he is uncomfortable in the role as a leader?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"No, I’m not uncomfortable in the role of a leader, but I recognize the fact that you’re talking hundreds of millions of dollars and that you’re talking about very high technology and scientific skill. If we obtain a partner in the UK, for example, to go the next step then I think that it makes a lot of sense.",
"The other point the member mentioned was MHD, for example, I’m told that Russia has one 25 mw plant which is not running. My officials would disagree with the article in Time magazine. That particular process was looked at and a great deal of money was spent on it by Britain, France, Germany, and they’ve all dropped it. Perhaps they are going ahead in Russia.",
"Russia has enormous resources of both uncommitted water power and thermal power, and that’s the route I think that they’ll continue to go for a long time. They’re into every brand of nuclear reactor, as I understand it, on a very small scale and just on an experimentation basis, but most of their power for a long time to come will come from water power and fossil fuels of which they have an abundance."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"Thank you, Mr. Minister. It just goes to show how incorrect information can be. That’s why I earlier made mention of the hazards of atomic radiation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"Right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"One hears one side of the story one day and the opposite side of the story next day. It’s the same with solar energy. We hear that it is extremely important and that it can by the year 2000 provide all of the energy needs of the United States. Yet, if it could do it by the year 2000, it’s kind of strange that the US Congress itself is going very slowly on it. In fact, on April 10 of this year, the Detroit Free Press carried a story from the New York Times service headlined: “Interest Cools Toward Solar Power as Fuel Alternative.” The US is only allocating, according to this article, some $700 million for all types of experimentation in new, exotic forms of energy. Really, that’s just a drop in the bucket for a big jurisdiction like that which recently was almost on its knees as a result of oil embargos from the Middle East."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. E. W. Martel (Sudbury East)",
"text": [
"Or so they tell you."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"Even the head scientist in the US who was supposed to have been involved in the experimentation with solar power -- and the fellow’s name is Dr. H. Guyford Stever, director of the National Science Foundation and chief science adviser to President Nixon -- is sceptical about the whole thing. So you see how confused the picture is when it comes to energy sources.",
"I would think that there will be a breakthrough in the not too distant future and that we will be able to get energy from sources that we haven’t dreamed of today. When we look at technology and how far it has progressed in the last 25 years, with the use today of the computer and the most brilliant people we’ve ever had since man has been on the face of God’s earth, I certainly think there will be a breakthrough and it will be a breakthrough which will not come along and adversely affect us environmentally and otherwise.",
"Mr. Chairman, I wanted to ask the minister, in the estimation of power need for the province, how do you break down your needs? Do you break it down the same way they do in the US where they have estimated that industry needs approximately 40 per cent of the power generated, that transportation requires about 25 per cent, and that housing and home consumption is approximately 35 per cent? Also, in figuring your estimates concerning our power needs, are you taking into consideration the slowing up of the birth rate, reduced immigration and the new social trends taking place, such as population not growing as rapidly as it has in the past, and looking forward to ZPG, zero population growth?",
"May I have some comments from the minister concerning this because I am disturbed that maybe we are overbuilding a lot of these energy sources? Remember how some eight or 10 years ago we clamoured for schools, schools all over, hospitals all over? Now we find we have surplus of schools. Sometimes the surplus happens to be not in the right location. It could be exactly the same thing -- we might be planning for tremendous surpluses in energy resources."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"Before I deal with that, let me assure the member, the House and my friend from Sandwich-Riverside that I agree with a great deal of what the member has said in terms of solar energy or what he referred to as exotic forms. To put it very simply, in our view the day for them hasn’t arrived. That is the advice of our people. We will continue to monitor what other people are finding and the day the breakthrough comes on any one of them, we will be on that bandwagon. I am sure of that and we will take advantage of the breakthroughs as they occur but they are a long way from occurring as yet.",
"Returning to the safety matter for a minute and what you read in the paper one day and what you read in the paper the next day. I suppose the only comparison I can make is that for 15, 20 or 25 years, I guess, as long as I have been smoking, I have read in the paper one day that it was safe and the next day that it wasn’t. There is an impressive array of advisers on both sides of that issue -- people who would say that it is not good. Yet in Elgin county and elsewhere we go on growing tobacco and producing cigarette and pipe tobacco.",
"I think to some extent the clash between scientific opinions can be compared to the same thing. All I can say is I am confident that the advice we are getting in terms of the safety aspects and the controls which are placed by the AECB on Douglas Point, Bruce and Pickering are as tight and as tough as they can be. Those aren’t just federal controls, as I’ve said. They come from advice from our own ministries -- Health, Environment, Natural Resources, Labour. They all sit on an advisory committee to the AECB; the local MOH, I think is on the committee or somebody from health is. I think we are getting as good advice as we can and we are satisfied with the results of it.",
"You asked about forecasting. I would agree with what the member has said. There, is a forecast unit in Hydro, which is where the whole thing begins, and where the projections are made. It becomes more difficult, really, than hospitals or schools; much more difficult because the lead times are longer. You can start to plan and build a hospital -- if you can get rid of the red tape, I suppose -- in three or four years; a school in something less than that. I suppose, really, the minimum time today for a nuclear generating station or even a fossil fuel station -- because of the environmental considerations, because of the steps of public participation, because of ordering the equipment and because of the sheer size of it -- I think you are looking at something that isn’t really less than 10 years. Therefore, if you are out in the first year, the probability is, you are going to be much further out in the 10th year. It is an immensely difficult exercise.",
"All the things that you mentioned -- population growth, immigration, change in the birth rate, industrial trends in terms of industrial consumption, household trends -- all those things are being fed into the forecast unit and I think they are satisfied that they are doing the very best job that they can. Having said that, that was one of the items which Mr. Macaulay spent some time on at the Energy Board hearings. I wasn’t there but I read that particular part of the transcript and he devoted more than a little bit of time to it and directed the board’s attention to that aspect in his summary at the end of phase one.",
"As I recall, and I am not passing judgement on this, he suggested strongly that the forecast unit should be further strengthened. I think he wanted some economists or something in the forecast unit. I have forgotten what his recommendations were. Now, whether the board, in their wisdom, decide that those suggestions make sense or not, I don’t know. The phase one report will be out -- I don’t know how soon -- in a couple of months, and we will see what the board thinks about Macaulay’s views of the forecast unit and they will certainly be looked at then by Hydro. But it’s not just in Hydro, it’s an immensely difficult area.",
"One of the things that somewhat worries me, in looking at a whole host of projections, in the oil hearings, we have seen that the figures from the oil hearings which the various companies and the board itself has prepared as to the projected size of the market, this was also true in AEC, it was also true I think in Task Force Hydro, and most of these projections, which go on 15 or 20 years, show electrical energy as having about the same size of the total energy market as it presently has, something like 20 per cent in this province, perhaps growing a bit. But if there were a dramatic switch, and it doesn’t happen overnight, to electric heat, if somebody made a breakthrough in terms of an electric car -- and the CPR, you may have noticed, are starting to talk about the possibility of conversion from diesel to electrification on the Windsor-Montreal run as being a place to start -- if some of those things start to happen and it will only be a change of a half per cent a year, less than that I suppose, then the power needs of the province which are being put forward now by Ontario Hydro before the Energy Board will grow very rapidly and very quickly in spite of whatever conservation measures are adopted or in spite of escalating costs reducing demand.",
"If there is a switch in the total energy package, from oil or gas to electricity, for example, then to use the phrase “We haven’t seen anything yet.” That worries Hydro and it worries me, but what the distribution will be I don’t know. I am sorry I can’t say more about the forecast unit. I can tell you that they think they do a very good job. Hydro think they do a very good job and they are continually updating themselves to make sure they are doing the best job possible, but it is a highly difficult area."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"I just wondered if the minister’s officials took into consideration the growing national trend for the greater processing of our raw materials. We are primarily exporters of a lot of the raw material and as our people become more and more conscious of it they are going to want the resources of our mines and forests processed into the finished product in Canada, or processed to a greater degree than they are now, and I would assume that, would mean a tremendous requirement of energy.",
"I wanted to ask another question of the minister, and this is the last one, concerning the super power lines. I can recall reading an article in one of the American newspapers, which mentioned that the electric force from a high-power line has so much energy that an individual could carry a fluorescent tube in his hand and it would glow if he were within 150 ft of the carrying towers. Is there some hazard as a result of these high-tension wires and super power lines being placed all over the environment, all over our farmland and so forth, and likewise coming into our cities?",
"There is also the comment that automotive equipment will not start if it is parked directly under one of these transmission towers. Is there any danger at all, physical danger to the individual, as a result of the extremely high voltages carried by these super power lines?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"I am informed that there is no hazard. It’s static electricity and is like walking on this rug. In builtup areas you see fences around the bottom of towers. They are there to stop kids and people from climbing up the towers, not because there is an electrical danger per se."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"Mr. Minister, you’re referring to towers that are carrying probably 100,000 volts or so. But I understand that once you go over 500,000 then it’s a completely different story. I’m no expert but I’m simply telling you what I happen to have read."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"I don’t think so, but we’ll be glad to get an answer for the hon. member and perhaps put it in writing for him."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Newman",
"text": [
"Thank you."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"I’d be interested, too."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Scarborough West."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Could the Minister of Energy refresh my mind about the uranium contracts that have been entered into with Japan and, I think, are in the process of arrangement with Spain, either on behalf of Denison or Rio Algom?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"No, I couldn’t offhand. I don’t think we’ve got that information here. The two contracts which have been announced are Denison and Rio Algom to Japan and to the UK --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Oh."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"-- neither one of which has been approved, as we understand it, by the government of Canada. But I can’t give the hon. member the figures or the tonnages offhand."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Explain the process to me for a moment. Does it go to the National Energy Board, or is it a cabinet decision in the export of uranium?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"It’s not the National Energy Board, which we would say perhaps it should be. No, I think it’s EMR and probably AECB, and then I think ultimately it is a cabinet decision. It’s a grey area because the regulations and the legislation simply aren’t there as clearly as they should be. But I think it’s a cabinet decision ultimately; it’s not an NEB decision and I don’t think there’s any provision for public hearings anywhere along the line. Again, we think there should be and -- this is what our uranium paper attempted to point out -- we think there should be procedures as there are in oil and gas, which may or may not have worked well, but there should be procedures which presumably will work better than no procedures."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"I appreciate that. I’m not going to take very long, but I’m going to get to the end-point I want in a rather circuitous route; I suppose that’s the normal political process.",
"I think obviously the federal government is going to approve the export of these large quantums of uranium ore, primarily because it will be argued, and I guess legitimately, that it is for peaceful purposes, and that the government of Canada is not likely to inhibit the export for peaceful purposes. Obviously the Province of Ontario sees the approval being given, and obviously you see uranium centring or focusing more and more as a resource and a need in this province and beyond its borders, otherwise you would not have made the statement which you made, jointly with the Premier, some weeks ago about exercising rather greater control over the production and distribution of uranium in Ontario, asking in effect the federal government to relinquish some of that control, and indeed going so far as to suggest that the privatization of the uranium industry should extend now to greater foreign control than was previously the case.",
"I’m not going to argue with you on the philosophic legitimacy of greater foreign control in the uranium industry; we wouldn’t get anywhere. You have a view and the NDP has a view, and we are diametrically on opposite sides of the fence."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, with respect, I don’t think we are. I see what the member has said from time to time. Let me put this in simple terms. We think there should be greater exploration for uranium in this country, not just in Ontario, but it Saskatchewan as well and probably in Newfoundland. One of the things which is seriously inhibiting exploration -- and you can read this on all sides and this is in our paper -- is the very severe ownership requirements which were applied retroactively by the government of Canada to stop the Denison sale. I disagree with retroactive steps, although occasionally they have to be taken. What is wrong is that that step was taken four years ago and is still nothing more, I think, than a ministerial statement. There is no legislation and no regulation. The rules, which are more than has applied in any other industry, in effect, were a 90 per cent Canadian control, which we don’t impose on any other industry, and don’t suggest should be imposed on any other industry.",
"I should send to you some of the people from the Bancroft area and from the Elliot Lake area. I am talking now about small Canadian prospectors, who may or may not have anything -- I don’t know -- who will tell you how very inhibited they are in looking for uranium and finding uranium, let alone doing anything about it, because of these ownership controls. The only company which I know of in the mining business which would qualify -- and they may today and not tomorrow -- to go out and look for uranium under those kinds of rules is Noranda which is 89 or 91 per cent owned in Canada.",
"I think that is wrong. I think there is a place for other Canadian firms. I think there is a place for Inco, which now by the way, is about 51 per cent Canadian-owned."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"It went the other way last week."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"It went down again?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"It went the other way last week. I was talking to them."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"Lord knows what the definition is of ownership. Outside the House, I said my definition in this case would probably be 51 per cent with some strings attached. The strings might be on the size of the block in the 49 per cent. If the 51 per cent were very widely held by a great number of people, then a block of 20 or 30 per cent might well control the total. I think there have to be some strings. Our real plea is, for heaven’s sake, define the ground rules and make them known, so that the exploration for this resource can get on. We have companies which are looking for uranium now with some success -- some of them foreign-owned -- who don’t know what they are going to do when they find it, because they don’t know what the ground rules are.",
"Perhaps where we have a difference would be that you would say because the rules -- and I don’t think you are saying this -- are established at 90, this is some sort of a retreat. If I were asked for a definition of Canadian control, I would say 51 per cent of Shell Oil and 51 per cent of General Motors and 51 per cent of the Ford Motor Co. I wouldn’t worry about the other 49 per cent if the rest were held here in Canada."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"You are the most militant socialist in the House."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"I don’t think we have to own 100 per cent. I think we will jeopardize our position as a trading nation if we set out to make that our goal. I really think to some extent 90 per cent is in that category.",
"The primary thrust of the paper is to encourage the finding of uranium. This is the disturbing thing about the sales. I think I said this to the member for York South some months ago after the first sale, that to the best of our knowledge and information we are not disturbed about the size of those two sales. I don’t think you should think they are fait accompli either."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Okay."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"I hear some rumours otherwise from time to time. If you had half a dozen sales of that size, you would start to worry. You particularly worry because nobody has been out looking for uranium.",
"One of the ways, of course, to stimulate the looking for it is to get the sales going, but that is the story which we were told for years by the oil industry, and I don’t think it is quite good enough to accept it today. We have got a hangup here.",
"It’s obvious in the paper, as prepared by ourselves and the mines branch, that the conventional wisdom would say find the uranium and encourage the selling of it. We say that isn’t good enough any more, that we would like to have a much better idea of what’s there before we start worrying about the exporting of it. I don’t think we are that far apart."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Well --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"Certainly not as far apart as we were last night."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"No, no. We are just as far apart as we were last night. The minister is as unrepenting and unremitting a Tory as he always has been and I am as conscious a socialist as others in our caucus. And I know that makes the minister feel better, whether it’s Thursday night or Friday morning, so I say it to put his mind at rest.",
"We are just as far apart because it’s not just a matter of exploration for additional uranium. It’s a matter of protecting the ore body that presently exists for domestic use, if that is our priority, given the patterns of export of energy resources over the past several years. And obviously, then, having some considerable control over the nationality of those who develop it.",
"I won’t argue the minister’s 51 per cent with him. If next month, 51 per cent of Shell and of CM and of Ford were Canadian-owned, I would consider that a modest first step on the road to repatriating our economy. We’ll probably settle for that as a goal for May. I won’t tell you what my goal is for June. But in uranium -- in uranium we don’t settle for that kind of halting step. We think the 90 per cent figure is deficient because it should be 100 per cent.",
"Now, ideologically we would nationalize the uranium industry as an energy resource which belongs in the public sector. That’s quite clear. Though that puts us so far apart that there is no coming together, except around Ontario Hydro, there is no question that we think there should be 100 per cent Canadian ownership if it can’t be in the public sector. However, I am willing to accept, and New Democrats are willing to accept, that foreign capital may wish to participate in the exploration for and development of the uranium industry; or indeed other mining and energy resource sectors -- I’m not sure we would inhibit that either. If they want to invest and participate and receive a fair rate of return on investment, fine. But we would not give them equity.",
"Those foreign companies do not have a right to equity in the primary energy resource that this province has left; if that is how this government intends to develop it. And that’s again a simple, philosophic difference which is pretty profound and cannot be bridged.",
"What my colleague, the member for Sandwich-Riverside, has been asking and asking very compellingly is whether we’re right of course to continue the whole nuclear development at all. And I must say that when he asks that I have to be honest about it -- New Democrats, both in our provincial policy and on our federal policy, have not come as far as the member for Sandwich-Riverside has come. We still have nuclear power generation within the NDP provincial programme in Ontario. It’s there and it is members like the member for Sandwich-Riverside who are trying to change party policy on this matter.",
"I would point out that the Social Democrats in Sweden are in the process of reversing their dependence on nuclear energy because of what they consider to be the hazards of the storage of radioactive wastes and the implications of the terrorist kind of attack which my colleague mentioned last night.",
"The New Democrats in British Columbia, in convention -- I’m not saying that this means that the Premier and the cabinet will accept it -- have passed a very anti-nuclear development resolution. And they didn’t do it mindlessly. They did it in the context of the great debate that began with the atomic scientists and rages to this day and clearly raises enormous questions.",
"I remember sitting in Goderich a number of weeks ago with a number of people from the Bruce plant. I’m not going to name their names; some of them were very highly placed. I was in a private home and it was for two to three hours of one evening. And they talked to me very feelingly and entirely in moral terms about the possibilities of visiting what amounts to terror on subsequent generations -- and how the devil do you make these moral decisions about the storage of radioactive wastes now which may wreak havoc 100 years from now?",
"Well, Mr. Chairman, there just have to be human beings around like the member for Sandwich-Riverside. There have to be people -- politicians in this House -- who stand and say that in terms of a moral imperative we are launched on a self-destructive course, and who have to warn, as others before him have warned, that once you set this process in motion you may be inviting destruction. He has his impact on this party. He has his impact on the debates in the House. I would have thought that the minister might be more generous and more open in his view of alternatives. Some of the comments have been a trifle specious. I don’t mean to be deprecating when I say that. It’s not like moving from horse and buggy to automobile, with respect. It is much more profound than that in terms of some of the social consequences, the social implications. I would have thought you would have been a little more flexible about looking at some of the alternatives.",
"The innovative possibilities for the Province of Ontario are enormous. What you say you are going to do with magnetic levitation in terms of the whole transportation system in the western world, which you are initiating as a provincial government, rightly or wrongly for good or ill, you might conceivably initiate in terms of alternative sources of energy.",
"What my colleague from Sandwich-Riverside is putting is not in the slightest farfetched. He just suffers the anguish of being a man ahead of his time -- he doesn’t suffer any anguish; he just tenaciously continues to press what he senses to be the logic in the situation, that there have to be clean sources and safe sources of energy generation which cannot even be questioned, rather than dirty sources and questionable sources which are under constant public scrutiny. And I am glad he does it. I am kind of pleased that it is coming from this caucus in that way, and it should continue to come that way.",
"The truth of the matter is that for whatever reason -- and obviously they are primarily economic and technological and scientific, and I accept all that; I haven’t sorted it out in my own mind, I must admit -- you have decided on a nuclear course. Now you will see where my circuitous reasoning is getting me to. You could have guessed it had you thought for a moment. You are committed to the nuclear course.",
"You are going to develop X number of plants around Ontario. Some of them will be announced precipitately and inappropriately in advance by certain senior members of Hydro who will then back and fill frantically to reassure people in western Ontario that they are not going to be losing their bean crop and their land. Some of them will be presented a little more thoughtfully and sensitively by senior personnel in Hydro, so that the sites which are chosen, whether they are in the northwest or on the north shore, in western Ontario, will have a lead time and the public will be persuaded rather than having it raised as a matter of fear.",
"Whatever the decision, you are launched on a course of massive nuclear generation in Ontario. That means you are tying the uranium industry in this province right in to Ontario’s future generating needs and that’s one of the reasons why you have asked for your provincial controls that you set out in your statement two or three weeks ago.",
"All of that being true, Mr. Minister, I want to say to you as a friend and a colleague in the House, as well as a Minister of Energy, that you have got to do something rather more serious about the men, and perhaps eventually the women, who are working in the mines to provide you with the uranium on which your entire programme is based. You cannot, as Minister of Energy, simply say, “Our job is the generation of power from whatever source after it’s there.” You have to take a look at your colleagues and the responsibilities back to the source.",
"Something is happening in this province which is so perverse and so destructive it’s really reprehensible. If we cannot persuade some of your colleagues of it, then perhaps we can take just a minute to persuade you of it.",
"I had a telegram from Elliot Lake. I want to read it to you. It came to me, I guess, three or four days ago, and it read as follows:",
"THE FOLLOWING TELEGRAM WAS SENT TO THE HON. LEO BERNIER AT 11:35 A.M., APRIL 22, 1974:",
"SEVEN HUNDRED URANIUM MINERS, EMPLOYEES OF DENISON MINES IN ELLIOT LAKE, ARE REFUSING TO CONTINUE TO WORK UNDER UNSAFE AND UNHEALTHY CONDITIONS. OUR MEMBERS OF LOCAL 5762 LEFT THEIR JOBS THURSDAY, APRIL 18, 1974, IN PROTEST OF THE EXISTING CONDITIONS AND DEMAND IMMEDIATE ATTENTION TO THE PROBLEM. OVER 60 UNSAFE AND UNHEALTHY ITEMS WHICH EXISTED FOR MANY YEARS AND ARE VIOLATIONS OF THE LAW HAVE BEEN PRESENTED TO THE COMPANIES. I AM ASKING YOU TO SEND SENIOR OFFICIALS OF YOUR DEPARTMENT TO ELLIOT LAKE IMMEDIATELY. OUR MEMBERS DEMAND THAT IMMEDIATE CORRECTIVE MEASURES MUST BE TAKEN TO REDUCE HUMAN SUFFERING AND FURTHER LOSS OF LIFE.",
"It is signed by G. H. Gilchrist, area supervisor, United Steelworkers of America.",
"Mr. Chairman, I visited Elliot Lake back in November. I met with members of the council, I met with the leaders of the union and I talked to them about the conditions of the mine, and I was talking to people who are frantically concerned about what is happening to them and to their friends and citizens in the community.",
"I was back to the Sudbury basin not very long ago -- a week or 10 days ago -- and I met again with the leadership of the Steelworkers, who are the representatives in Sudbury. I met with the president of the union at Rio Algom and the president of the union at Denison. Again they set out to me, almost frantically, their concerns about the conditions in the mine.",
"I want to remind the minister that what we are talking about here are health hazards so acute that there are very few parallels anywhere else in the mining industry. What has happened in the 18 years of Denison is that we have now discovered that nearly 10 per cent of the present work force suffers from continuing silicosis, that 140 silicotic pensions have been given between Jan. 1, 1974, and March 1, 1974, by the Workmen’s Compensation Board.",
"When I talked to the president of the Denison union last week, he talked to me -- in tones that were kind of hushed, kind of traumatized -- of the young man who had been taken down to the Princess Margaret Hospital that afternoon with confirmed cancer. Maybe that isn’t a direct consequence of the mine. I don’t know.",
"Certainly the levels of radiation hazard and what the men are hearing have persuaded them that cancer is now a serious possibility. Certainly the Ministry of Health has begun to take it seriously, because for the first time in as many years as we can remember, the Ministry of Health is starting to do tests.",
"But all the testing in the world is of no consequence unless the Ministry of Natural Resources changes the conditions beneath the ground and does something about the conditions in the Rio Algom and Denison mines, although Denison uses much older equipment.",
"I guess what I am saying to the minister is that if we are going to build the economic base of Ontario over the next generation on the provision of energy from nuclear sources, then the government has got a moral responsibility to protect -- almost more zealously than it has ever protected any other workers in its life -- those who are in the mines at Denison and Rio Algom in Elliot Lake.",
"I want to tell the minister -- I know he will rise and defend his colleague, and I fully expect him to do that; I understand cabinet solidarity -- I want to tell him that the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Bernier) doesn’t understand what is happening in Denison and Rio Algom -- and he doesn’t care very much. Otherwise, he would not make the kind of defensive and apologetic statements he made in the House; otherwise he would not go outside the House and talk about the miners exaggerating the problem.",
"Who in hell is he, sitting here day after day in these plush surroundings, to say whether the miners working underground in Denison are exaggerating the problems when 10 per cent of them have silicosis and when they are discovering cancer cases! What kind of preposterous self-indulgence is that on the part of the Minister of Natural Resources? Where does he get the insufferable presumption to toy with human life in that fashion? Because that is what was being done both here in the House and outside the House.",
"The people in the Ministry of Energy have some kind of responsibility, I think, to say to the Minister of Natural Resources that 700 men don’t walk off the job like that; they don’t submit that kind of argument if there is not a basis for it. The ministry had a mining investigative report in 1961 which prophesied what would happen. Not a thing has happened from that day to this, except through the Ministry of Health.",
"I don’t exempt the Ministry of Health, but so that you know I am not coming to you as a kind of mindless partisan, I concede to you that the Minister of Health (Mr. Miller) and the ministry are doing something. They are taking it seriously. I know my colleague from Sudbury East has been speaking to the Deputy Minister of Health quite frequently over the last two months and assures me that at least from Health there is a response. From Natural Resources, I say to you, there is no response at all. And it kind of terrorizes a whole community, because the spectre of silicosis and cancer is one that a government just pounces on. You just go into Denison and Rio Algom and you change the rules underground in a way that you’ve never dealt with those companies before in your life.",
"Now, then, there was a meeting. On the day that the minister was making the statement about how good things were and how hard they were working at it, on that very day there was a meeting in Elliot Lake. Five hundred miners emerged at that meeting -- my colleague from Sudbury East can tell you more about it in detail because he was there -- miner after miner came to the microphone and talked about the conditions in the mine. And it would cause your hair to stand on end. If you were Minister of Natural Resources you would not tolerate it. Let me tell you that, as someone who knows you a trifle. And the fact that these miners should emerge -- they are on a wildcat, for heaven’s sake, they are out on strike. They know that it’s not legal. They know that. The meeting was --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"What have they got to lose?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The meeting was absolutely orderly. Usually wildcats’ meetings are tumultuous, almost always. I’ve been to some of them. In this case, the meeting was absolutely orderly.",
"It was fully self-disciplined. One after the other they described the conditions in the mines. And as my colleague from Sudbury East says, what have they got to lose? They are talking about their lives. I mean, I don’t think there is much greater reason for going out on strike than to preserve one’s life, and that’s what the issue now is in Elliot Lake. It’s nothing less than that. And it can’t be fobbed off with the kind of trivial responses which we got in the House.",
"Let me just read to you and then I’ll sit down. Let me just tell you of the kind of complaints which they registered with the public and with Denison:",
"18-38 panel roadway too dry and too much dust.",
"ST8 smokes too much -- operators complain eyes, nose and chest burning.",
"ST2 S-tram trainee seat too close to the yoke, could cut legs off a trainee.",
"Grizzly not safe. Jeeps and Unimogs do not stop, they proceed uphill at the same time as the scoop tram.",
"Have you ever seen a scoop tram, Mr. Minister? Have you ever seen a scoop tram?",
"My colleague from Nickel Belt and my colleague from Sudbury East and I were down at the 2,200 level of the North mine of International Nickel a week or 10 days ago and we toured the mine at some considerable length and we watched those scoop trams and I want to tell you they are bloody terrifying machines. I have never seen a machine like it. The way they move, the way they pick up the ore, the way they discharge it -- it’s like a juggernaut coming at you. And the proposition that in any mine the workers should be concerned about the operation of a scoop tram is something that cannot be defended on the part of government. The workers should not be concerned about that kind of thing. And that they set it out is something worth thinking about. In fact, I want to invite you to go down underground in Denison. I think you should."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"Yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"I think as Minister of Energy, using these men as the source of supply for all that you want to construct in Ontario, you should take a day with some of your senior staff and go down underground in Denison."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"And don’t let them prepare it two days ahead of time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"As a matter of fact, the mine we were down in International Nickel had the best safety record of all the mines underground that Inco runs, all 10 of them. But I’d like you to see Denison. I have a feeling that you would have a rather different perspective on what is happening in the generation of nuclear power and the need to safeguard it in advance as well at the end.",
"To continue:",
"24209 panel misfired round, was mucked out -- this is not a safe procedure.",
"26 panel -- bad ventilation.",
"24 panel -- no visibility.",
"9671 JDT travelling in own smoke -- burns eyes and chest -- operators complain.",
"Jeeps smoke too much.",
"D6 operators complain of too much smoke.",
"I could go through them one after another. There were 60 specific violations of the Mining Act and scores upon scores of specific hazards raised. Some of them are marginally comic, except if you are a worker.",
"There are a lot of workers in that Denison Mine for whom there aren’t even washrooms. They relieve themselves beside their equipment. That’s the nature of the mine at a number of levels in Denison. You have got primitive conditions; you have got bad ventilation and dust levels and radiation hazards. You have got serious and now proved violations of human health, dangers to human health, and nothing is happening except for the Ministry of Health testing.",
"I say to you as strongly as I can that the lives of the workers in Elliot Lake cannot be toyed with. You are putting too much dependence on them to do that to them. I am not talking to you about wages; I am not talking to you about fringe benefits. I am not talking to you about the cost of living index. I am just talking to you about the right of those who are engaged in the mining of uranium ores to be protected. The present situation is scandalous and the Ministry of Natural Resources isn’t doing a bloody thing about it. The Ministry of Natural Resources suffers in its mining section from too many people from the industry; too many old boys from the industry, from management side, who find it tough to understand what the workers are experiencing in the mine.",
"Let me make one last point to you. Maybe some of it gets through, maybe none of it gets through, I don’t know. I know you listen and you absorb but whether it ever has any influence I don’t know. The workers who work in Denison can find no alternative employment. No one will hire them. Almost all of them suffer a disability already; almost all of them are silicotic in some degree or so it is now suspected; 10 per cent of them to a very considerable degree, proved. What do these people do? The uranium mines, for the majority of them now, are the only place to make a living. They are not acceptable anywhere else; they can’t get jobs anywhere else.",
"Have you taken a look at the life expectancy table of these workers? Have you seen how long they live on the average after they’re pensioned? Have you seen how many of them are on a disability pension now? It is like consigning them to a shorter life expectancy than all other kinds of workers in Ontario and then making no effort to provide them with security and safety on the job. That’s just not acceptable. That ranges into the moral argument which my colleague from Sandwich-Riverside made last night.",
"Last night, on the three moral grounds he gave you in discussing the whole generation of nuclear energy, he started with ground No. 1: If it is going to cost the life of a single worker is it worth it? You are not without recourse for doing something about the mines in Elliot Lake."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"Clean up the ventilation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"You can move in there and do it overnight. You are not going to offend the companies by coming down hard. You will embrace the admiration of the whole community and the appreciation of a very large number of people.",
"All right. I have transgressed slightly but I think appropriately on the minister’s estimates. We will have to pursue some of these things, not all of them, with the Minister of Natural Resources but clearly we must raise it here now because this is where it all begins. This is where your ministry originates for the next period of time.",
"I plead with you to speak to some of your colleagues, particularly the Minister of Natural Resources, and tell them to stop toying with human life. I use the phrase advisedly. There is no other way of describing the abdication of the mining branch of the Ministry of Natural Resources as it relates to Denison, Rio Algom and the community of Elliot Lake."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The member for Rainy River."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. T. P. Reid (Rainy River)",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I want to make a few comments, not on the particular subject raised by the last speaker. I wanted to go into --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I want to continue along precisely this line."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"That’s fine, go ahead."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The member for Sudbury East then."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"I won’t talk too long on this. I spent last Monday evening in Elliot Lake and I listened and I taped. I could provide the minister with the tape of the entire programme as the men spoke with despair. There is no hope.",
"I questioned the minister this morning about getting de Bastiani to sit down and to start to talk to the men. The minister replied again that it is an illegal strike and that there is very little they can do. The minister kept emphasizing it is an illegal strike. Sure it is an illegal strike. I don’t blame the men for not going back and they aren’t going back and the situation is going to get nasty because of the 60 demands which were submitted to de Bastiani and to which he was to reply yesterday. He now has refused to reply in totality and he refuses to even consider negotiations until the men go back to work.",
"It would be ludicrous for the men to go back to work. They walked out because at least 10 per cent have silicosis. There are three terminal cancer cases and there is one man who has already died. We are talking of working people by the thousands. As one young man so eloquently put it the other night that, “I’m just a little over 30,” he said. “If I stay in, I won’t be around to play with my kids and I won’t be around to pay for them to get to university if they want to go. What is the sense of going back to work?”",
"I put the question to the minister. What is the sense of those men going in unless there is some assurance from management and from the government, that it will be cleaned up? The Minister of Natural Resources has indicated that they are willing to do something now. This report was in 1961. I read to you only the first sentence. “In the Elliot Lake mines there is both a dust and a radiation problem.” The mines branch, to my knowledge, has not conducted a test since that time. Not a single solitary test was conducted, as far as the mining commission goes, until late last fall. That was an interesting test. The federal government, as I understand it, was either invited in by the province or vice versa, and they went up to Elliot Lake and they conducted some tests underground.",
"Talking to the men who came down from Elliot Lake yesterday, I was told the mine was watered down for two days. That means that every effort was being made to get the dust to settle. Six hours before the provincial people and the federal people went in to do the testing, all the pressures were turned off. So the type of analysis you would get after watering the place down for two days, after turning all of the pressures off, isn’t an indication of the conditions the men work under daily.",
"I appreciate the shortness of time left with respect to this, but as the leader of the party has said, there are 60 problems. If you would look at them you would see that the overwhelming majority deal with gas fumes from the diesels and with dust counts of which there is no accurate analysis. There is really no way that we are going to improve that situation. The battle lines are only going to harden unless the government intervenes and indicates to the men in a rather forthright manner that the ventilation is going to be improved and that the testing is going to be done regularly. Otherwise, there is so little hope or so little future for the overwhelming majority of men that they are not going back.",
"You can’t blame them with at least 10 per cent of them, or 140 roughly, with silicosis and at least four with cancer, those four being terminal cases. You can’t blame them for not going back in. If Denison isn’t going to move and sit down and negotiate in a frank, forthright manner before they go back then they are not going back because the future holds no hope. I would urge it upon this minister to impress upon his colleague, the Minister of Natural Resources -- one of his chief men is directly out of the mines at Elliot Lake. The head of the mining division, Mr. Jewett, was the mines manager for Rio Tinto. The minister doesn’t expect him to have lost all his allegiance to the company. Some one other than the Minister of Natural Resources is going to have to take the bull by the horns over there, and I would urge it upon this minister to be the man to do that. Thank you, Mr. Chairman."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Could I just determine from the hon. member for Rainy River, does he have lengthy remarks?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"It will take five or 10 minutes.",
"Hon. Mr. Winkler moves the committee rise and report progress an ask leave to sit again.",
"Motion agreed to.",
"The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the committee of supply begs to report progress and asks for leave to sit again.",
"Report. agreed to."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I beg to inform the House that in the name of Her Majesty The Queen, the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor has been pleased to assent to certain bills in her chambers."
]
}
] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
ROYAL ASSENT
|
[
{
"speaker": "Clerk of the House",
"text": [
"The following are the titles of the bills to which Her Honour has assented:",
"Bill 26, the Land Transfer Act, 1974.",
"Bill Pr1, An Act respecting the City of Belleville.",
"Bill Pr2, An Act respecting the St. Catharines Slovak Club Ltd.",
"Bill Pr3, An Act respecting the City of Hamilton.",
"Bill Pr4, An Act respecting the City of Hamilton.",
"Bill Pr6, An Act respecting the Wellington County Board of Education.",
"Bill Pr7, An Act respecting the Niagara Peninsular Railway Co.",
"Bill Pr8, An Act respecting the Incorporated Synod of the Diocese of Ontario.",
"Bill Pr9, An Act respecting the Town of Strathroy.",
"Bill Pr10, An Act respecting Root’s Dairy Ltd.",
"Bill Pr11, An Act respecting the Town of Ingersoll.",
"Bill Pr13, An Act respecting Tara Exploration and Development Co. Ltd.",
"Bill Pr14, An Act respecting the Town of Walkerton.",
"Bill Pr15, An Act respecting the City of Kitchener.",
"Bill Pr16, An Act respecting the City of Orillia.",
"Bill Pr17, An Act respecting Diamond and Green Construction Co. Ltd.",
"Bill Pr18, An Act respecting Victoria Hospital Corp. and the War Memorial Children’s Hospital of Western Ontario.",
"Bill Pr19, An Act respecting, the Borough of North York.",
"Bill Pr21, An Act respecting the University of Western Ontario.",
"Bill Pr22, An Act respecting the Waterloo-Wellington Airport.",
"Bill Pr24, An Act respecting the City of Chatham.",
"Bill Pr25, An Act respecting Savings and Investment Trust.",
"Bill Pr26, An Act respecting Lake of the Woods District Hospital.",
"Bill Pr28, An Act respecting the Presbyterian Church Building Corp.",
"Bill Pr29, An Act respecting the City of Windsor.",
"Bill Pr31, An Act respecting the City of London."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman Management Board of Cabinet)",
"text": [
"On Monday, Mr. Speaker, because there is some urgency -- and I think I alluded to it last evening -- I will call first, item 10, Bill 31, and then item 9, Bill 25.",
"On Tuesday, I would hope to call, again because of some urgency -- a local matter of jurisdiction -- item 8, Bill 23; and I believe, sir, not contentious. Then item 7, Bill 22; and I will reiterate that the House will not sit on Tuesday evening, but that we will sit until 6 o’clock."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. V. M. Singer (Downsview)",
"text": [
"Monday night?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"Monday night, yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. S. Lewis (Scarborough West)",
"text": [
"On a point of order, I am sorry -- the House leader did not call then the Land Speculation Tax Act."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"Yes, item 9."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Did he?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. T. P. Reid (Rainy River)",
"text": [
"Are we not going back to these estimates?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Then we are not likely to return to the estimates until about Thursday, I think."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler",
"text": [
"Yes, that is correct.",
"Hon. Mr. Winkler moves the adjournment of the House.",
"Motion agreed to.",
"The House adjourned at 1 o’clock, p.m."
]
}
] |
April 26, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-26/hansard
|
INDUSTRIAL MILK PRICES
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. A. Stewart (Minister of Agriculture and Food)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I wish to inform the Legislature of the representation made yesterday by the government of Ontario to the federal Minister of Agriculture concerning the recently announced federal dairy product price support and industrial milk subsidy increases. At that meeting, we suggested ways of placing the industry on a sounder economic base.",
"On July 1, 1973, our government responded to the need for increased industrial milk production by adopting the industrial milk production incentive programme. This programme encourages the expansion of industrial milk herds and the modernization of production facilities through a system of guaranteed bank loans. We had recommended loans totalling over $16 million to close to 1,300 farmers as of April 4, 1974, which should result in an increase of over 160 million lb of industrial milk over the next two years.",
"IMPIP encourages industrial milk expansion but the 1974 federal dairy policy does not go far enough in providing the incentive to maintain and increase industrial milk production. The Ontario government supports the Dairy Farmers of Canada, the national milk producer organization, in its continuing bid for an overall increase in returns to industrial milk and cream producers equivalent to at least $2 per 100 lb of milk over the 1973-1974 dairy support programme.",
"According to the federal policy more than half this amount has been provided. I might add we have received unanimous support for this needed price increase from the Quebec Minister of Agriculture, the Hon. Normand Toupin, who joined me in meeting the federal minister and the dairy farmers of our neighbouring Province of Quebec.",
"In our opinion, the needed price increases must come from both the marketplace and the federal government. In this regard, we urged the federal Minister of Agriculture to increase immediately the product price of butter by two cents a lb and the product price of skim milk powder by two cents a lb. This action would result in an increase to producers of 25 cents per cwt. The remaining price increase necessary to meet the Dairy Farmers of Canada’s request should come by additional federal subsidy.",
"This action, while not meeting every dairy farmer’s requirements, would provide greater assurance of a fair return on investment, labour and capital. We believe it is essential to assure Ontario consumers of an adequate supply of dairy products.",
"We are pleased with the federal government’s recent announcement to pay subsidies to group I producers, on all milk over and above an excess of six per cent over fluid sales. Previously the level was 115 per cent of fluid sales. This will encourage fluid milk producers to increase their output thereby making more milk available for industrial purposes. We welcome the decision to extend the industrial milk subsidy to all milk shipments covered by the market-sharing quota thereby bringing to a virtual end the subsidy eligibility quota which has previously been in effect.",
"I wish to emphasize that the suggested price increases would accrue to the producer; no processors should benefit from these higher levels since in fact their cost margins should remain stable at current levels.",
"On a more philosophical note, I have been asked why even bother saving this province’s dairy industry. If I may quote from the 1974 dairy policy statement of the Dairy Farmers of Canada:",
"“National policy in Canada is that the requirements of the Canadian consumer for milk and milk products should, with few exceptions, be met from Canadian production. That policy should and must be retained. If today’s evidence of the problems and uncertainties in world food production and in the world economy, teach anything, it is that it would be the worst kind of mistake to sacrifice a policy of regular and dependable supply from Canadian production for imagined, and to say the least highly uncertain, benefits of a policy of allowing the Canadian industry to decline and to increase reliance on imports. Not to utilize the great agricultural resource base of Canada to produce our dairy product needs would be a tragedy.”",
"Mr. Speaker, such a tragedy confronted this province a few years ago and now we are paying the consequences. There is no better illustration of the devastating effect on consumer prices as the result of a loss of a Canadian industry than the demise of the Ontario sugar beet industry. We lost that industry because there was no requirement that Canada must produce a certain percentage of her total sugar requirements. Most other countries such as the United States and the United Kingdom do have such a policy.",
"The result was that sugar processors could buy, at that time, raw liquid sugar, surplus to world market requirements, for less than they would pay Ontario farmers to grow sugar beets. The federal government either had to provide substantial subsidies to beet growers or establish a minimum requirement for domestic sugar production. Neither was done. The industry died. World sugar demands grew. World production has not kept pace. We have no sugar beet production in Ontario, and Canadian consumers are almost totally at the mercy of foreign-controlled sugar imports."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)",
"text": [
"At the time they were going under, where was this government?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"Today’s sugar prices reflect the consequences of this situation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. E. W. Martel (Sudbury East)",
"text": [
"The Minister of Agriculture and Food watched them go."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"He waved goodbye."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"The wholesale price of sugar has leaped over 450 per cent from 1965 to 1974. One industry died; another must not."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. S. Lewis (Scarborough West)",
"text": [
"No, this government killed it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon (Leader of the Opposition)",
"text": [
"If the government had supported them, they would still be in business."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The government provided the death blow."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"This, Mr. Speaker, is why the government of Ontario has taken such a firm stand on the necessary price increases for the industrial milk producer consistent with the request of Dairy Farmers of Canada."
]
}
] |
April 25, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-25/hansard-1
|
VIOLENCE IN AMATEUR HOCKEY
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. R. Brunelle (Minister of Community and Social Services)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I would like to inform the Legislature that upon the request and recommendation of the director of my sports and recreation bureau, I have instigated an investigation pursuant to section 7(a) of the Athletics Control Act.",
"I wish to assure the members that the Premier (Mr. Davis) and I share the concern of all the members of this House and of the public at large at what appears to be the increasing violence in hockey at the amateur level. It is essential, in the view of this government, that the young people of this province can participate in sporting activities without fear of injury, either from the opposing players on the field or from the fans in the stands.",
"The departure point for this investigation is the situation concerning the withdrawal of the Bramalea junior hockey team from the Ontario Hockey Association’s playoff series with Hamilton and the subsequent suspension of the team and their officials by the Ontario Hockey Association.",
"I have appointed Mr. William K. McMurtry, QC, counsel to the Toronto law firm of Blaney, Pasternak --",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Brunelle",
"text": [
"I surmise, Mr. Speaker, that I have the approval of the members of the loyal opposition."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"A well known sport."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"He is even a poor loser."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Brunelle",
"text": [
"Mr. McMurtry’s family is well known in the sports field."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. V. M. Singer (Downsview)",
"text": [
"A real old sport."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"He is known as the loser too."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Come on, stop this."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order please."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Brunelle",
"text": [
"His father played for the Toronto Argonauts in the 1920s --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Will the minister stop this?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Brunelle",
"text": [
"And both he and his brother have been involved in amateur sports all their lives."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Who cares?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. T. P. Reid (Rainy River)",
"text": [
"He is not an amateur in politics.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Brunelle",
"text": [
"McMurtry himself participated in five intercollegiate sports, played hockey for the Royal Military College and Osgoode Hall and was, I believe, a Rhodes scholarship candidate.",
"He has coached hockey, Mr. Speaker, from tike to peewee, and the Trinity College football team at the University of Toronto."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The minister has got to be kidding. I played for the Harbord Juniors."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Brunelle",
"text": [
"He has played for both Ontario and Canada in rugger."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Tell us what he did in St. George."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Brunelle",
"text": [
"Over the last several years he has developed a specialized knowledge in sports litigation, from several perspectives."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"He engaged in sport as a Tory candidate."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Brunelle",
"text": [
"I have asked Mr. McMurtry to examine --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"There aren’t many of those around."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"What better sport can there be than that?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"What is his per diem for that?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Brunelle",
"text": [
"I have asked Mr. McMurtry to examine the full circumstances and implications arising from this case and report at the earliest opportunity."
]
}
] |
April 25, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-25/hansard-1
|
HEALTH AND SAFETY HAZARDS AT ELLIOT LAKE
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. L. Bernier (Minister of Natural Re- sources)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, at this time I would like to make some further comments on a subject raised in the House last Monday by the leader of the New Democratic Party (Mr. Lewis) .",
"At that time he referred to the work stoppage at the Consolidated Denison Mines in the Elliot Lake area and suggested that it was the result of worker dissatisfaction with the efforts of my ministry in the area of working and environmental conditions."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"With “no” effort!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"In order to appreciate the whole situation, it is necessary to look at a larger piece of time than the past seven days. As the members know, the development of the uranium mines in the Elliot Lake area took place during the mid-1950s. It is fair to say that while certain technology was available with respect to hardrock mining, there was little in the way of experience in the mining and handling of uranium-bearing ores.",
"As part of our regular programme, the mines at Elliot Lake have been monitored regularly for dust and radiation levels. It was recognized quite early that a higher silica content in the Elliot Lake ores posed a greater hazard to miners. In 1958 Dr. Pater- son reported on the effect of the higher silica levels. This was in a report made following an investigation of silicosis in miners throughout Ontario. A more recent report by Dr. Paterson is currently being printed and will be available shortly."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"It has been in print since 1970."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. W. Ferrier (Cochrane South)",
"text": [
"It was six years in the making."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Last November representatives of the United Steelworkers of America met with myself and the Minister of Health. The purpose of the meeting was for the union to present their views that workers in the uranium mines in Elliot Lake were being subjected to abnormal hazards.",
"Following our meeting with the union, the Minister of Health and myself agreed that two things would happen. One, a complete medical study of the workers in the uranium mines would be carried out by the Ministry of Health; and two, a study of underground working and environmental conditions would be carried out by my staff.",
"Commencing in January of this year, the Minister of Health has to date x-rayed some 900 workers from the Elliot Lake camp. The results of these x-rays are currently being analysed by the staff of the Ministry of Health. My ministry requested the federal Department of National Health and Welfare to assist in the techniques and instrumentation associated with the measuring of the levels of radiation in the mines. Following this, mv staff prepared a proposal for the underground environmental survey and this was presented to representatives of the union at a meeting on April 16 of this year."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"Hurray!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"In addition to the union representation at this meeting, there was staff from the Ministry of Health and my own ministry, as well as the hon. member for Windsor West. In a letter to me, the hon. member indicated his general support for the proposal put before the union members. I think it is fair to say that the union felt we were attempting to deal with the situation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"They thought that of the Ministry of Health not of Natural Resources."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"On a slightly different subject, I am informed that on April 4 the Steelworkers union sent letters to both Denison Mines and Rio Algom Mines requesting two things: One, an improvement in health environmental conditions; and two, a cost of living subsidy.",
"On April 16 the Rio Algom Co. advised employees they would be receiving a special allowance for cost of living increases. I believe the lack of response or action on the part of Consolidated Denis on caused the employees to stop work on April 18. It appears that Denison subsequently indicated to the employees they would pay a similar subsidy but only after the plant had been working for 24 hours."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"They said they would consider it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"An attempt on the part of the NDP to suggest that the walkout had only to do with working conditions ignores the wage issue completely."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The work conditions are the issue."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"The leader of the NDP is always taking things out of context and exaggerating. That’s all he does."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The working conditions are the issue. Why are they still out? Why did they meet with the Premier?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"That is a bare-faced lie. Why did the ministry meet 500 members? What was the issue?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"That’s all he does. He goes to the north country and comes back with half the information."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Get down to the facts. Just listen to the facts.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"We have been meeting and keeping in touch with the union on working conditions."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The devil they have!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"As I mentioned, on April 16 they had been fully informed of our plans and agreed with them 100 per cent, as the NDP’s own member did."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Nonsense!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"Nonsense!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Why are they still out? The minister has a rotten department.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"My staff attended a meeting on April 22 in Elliot Lake with some 300 union members and others present."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"There were 500 union members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Exaggeration again."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"I was there."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"A lengthy list of complaints was subsequently made available to our staff on April 23."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. K. McNeil (Elgin)",
"text": [
"They can’t count. They always exaggerate."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"It appears that many of the complaints have to do with the terms and conditions of employment rather than health or safety measures."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"That*s a pile of nonsense."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"However, my staff are investigating each of their complaints, although some of the investigations must await the reopening of the mine. It is worth pointing out, Mr. Speaker, that there are normal channels for the handling of this type of grievance, and in our opinion they were not being followed.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Had they been, we would not have reached the point where 60 items have been accumulated to date."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"The minister is a disgrace."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"There are men in the uranium mines. The ministry should look after those men."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"In summary, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Health (Mr. Miller) and myself are very much concerned with the health and the safety of workers in the mines of Elliot Lake and in other mines in this province."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"He’s concerned!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"He’s concerned! This ministry isn’t concerned."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Evidence of this is shown in the programmes each of us are having carried out. However, it does appear there are those who have attempted to use the working conditions as a reason for the work stoppage, when in fact it appears to have more to do with the cost of living increase."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Oh, come on."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"I understand that at the present time the union is refusing to let the workers go back to work until the company has made an unqualified commitment on the wage issue."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The union is refusing to let them go back? They don’t want to go back."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"On the other hand, the company appears to be waiting for the men to go back to work."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. F. Laughren (Nickel Belt)",
"text": [
"That is so much crap."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Meanwhile, we are continuing to do all we reasonably can in the area of health and environmental conditions."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"The minister is doing nothing."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"He is an irresponsible, reckless minister. He doesn’t give a damn about the workers. What an awful statement that was. What an awful statement."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please. Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"That statement was written for the minister by the mining industry. What a ridiculous statement to make in the House. Seven hundred workers are out because of safety conditions."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"Go up to Elliot Lake."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"Does the minister ever get off his knees in the corporate board rooms?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please.",
"Oral questions.",
"The hon. Leader of the Opposition."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"I would like to ask a question of the Minister of the Environment."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"The minister is a disgrace to the ministry. He should get off his knees."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"The member doesn’t know what’s going on."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"I was there with them."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, please. Perhaps we could have order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"Well, tell him not to tell so many lies.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. Leader of the Opposition has the floor."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"I don’t want to interfere with free speech."
]
}
] |
April 25, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-25/hansard-1
|
AIR POLLUTION IN SUDBURY
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Further to the decision by the Minister of the Environment to reduce the operation at the nickel smelter in Sudbury on Tuesday because of the high level of pollution, is he going to announce that Falconbridge in Sudbury is going to be required to clean up its general operation on a more rapid timetable; or is he going to stick with the two-year extension which was granted by his predecessor and which has allowed them to maintain their operation at the present level?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman (Minister of the Environment)",
"text": [
"As the hon. member knows, we shut them down completely yesterday. I will be in Sudbury tomorrow to look at the total situation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"A supplementary: Since the Falconbridge corporation is reported to have had a net income last year of $55 million, about 10 times more than its profit in 1972, wouldn’t the minister now agree that Falconbridge can afford to install the anti-pollution equipment in a much shorter period of time and that the two-year extension granted by the minister’s predecessor should be reviewed?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"As I said, I’m going to be in Sudbury tomorrow, and while I don’t know how soon the equipment can be available, I’m going to look at the whole matter in a meeting with my staff up there tomorrow."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. D. C. MacDonald (York South)",
"text": [
"The more time the minister gives them the longer they’ll delay in implementing environmental controls."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"A further supplementary: Would the minister not agree that under the circumstances, the argument put forward by Falconbridge, that the financial impact of the requirement made by the minister’s predecessor was such that it could not live up to it, should be reviewed? Surely the minister could give us that concession."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"I have just finished telling the hon. member that I’m going to review the matter and I’m going to be looking at the whole situation when I’m there tomorrow. Did he hear me?",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order. The hon. member for Sudbury East has a supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"A supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Has the minister asked Falconbridge and Inco to explain their economic position, which was the reason given by his predecessor for granting them a two-year extension?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. D. H. Morrow (Ottawa West)",
"text": [
"Question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"Have they been forced to show why this economic picture, which was so bleak in 1972, was in fact 10 times brighter last year in terms of returns?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Ten times higher? Profits went up 773 per cent in one year."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Newman",
"text": [
"I believe I will give the hon. member the same answer I gave to the Leader of the Opposition, that I’m going to be in Sudbury tomorrow."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"That’s a stall."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"It is a stall."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Newman",
"text": [
"It’s not a stall. I’ll be there tomorrow."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Well, supplementary --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Waterloo North has a supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. E. R. Good (Waterloo North)",
"text": [
"Could the minister advise the House whether the stack sampling equipment, which his predecessor said last year would be in operation in four months, is now collecting data?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"We are collecting data there daily. As the hon. member knows, there are cases before the court now involving one of the companies."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"I am talking about the stack sampling setup. Is it in operation now?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Scar- borough West."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Has the minister reviewed the ministerial order with a view to rescinding it immediately?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"I am constantly reviewing ministerial orders on all the companies we are dealing with."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"I am asking the minister about Falconbridge."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"I have reviewed it, yes, but I haven’t made any decision on it as yet."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"There have been five supplementaries, which is sufficient. The hon. Leader of the Opposition."
]
}
] |
April 25, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-25/hansard-1
|
ALLEGED AIR POLLUTION FROM METAL COMPANIES
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, a second question of the same minister, really on an allied subject.",
"In light of the fact that a Ministry of the Environment official has stated that lead levels in the soil around the Canada Metal Co. plant are as high as 10,000 parts per million, is the ministry now prepared to at least consider the financing of the cost of replacing the soils around the Canada Metal and Toronto Refiners and Smelters Ltd. plant, as the Toronto city council requested during the last year?",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"We are prepared to co-operate with the MOH and the city of Toronto on any programme they decide upon."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Supplementary: Since the minister said he is reviewing these ministerial orders on a regular basis, and since his predecessor indicated clearly that a special review of the lead poison situation in the south part of Toronto would be undertaken, can’t the minister say something more than he is prepared to give it further consideration? His predecessor gave the same undertaking. Surely the consideration must eventually result in a decision?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"I said we were prepared to co-operate with the city of Toronto and the MQH. I am also not really in a position to give details of our new monitoring in the area since the new control devices have gone into operation. We have new control devices on Canada Metal Co. and from what I understand from our people they are working very well. They have had some start-up problems, but they are working fairly well at this point in time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Supplementary: Is the minister aware that his supervisor of air quality is reported to have stated that the Canada Metal and Toronto Refiners and Smelters plants are major sources of lead pollution? And since it is undoubtedly the lead pollution that is harmful, and at least in some cases fatal, would the minister not now act to take some more substantial position than simply the continuing review that we have been treated to now for 15 months?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"As the member knows, the Ministry of Health has set up an advisory committee to deal with the effects of lead on the human body."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"Get the lead out!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"They are studying it at this point in time. Can the member find the doctors who can agree? There has always been a certain amount of disagreement on what level of lead is really that serious, and this is what the committee was appointed for, to look into this matter."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Supplementary: When are they going to give the minister a substantial report? It seems to me the committee was set up to get it off the back of the minister’s predecessor, and this minister has been able to shirk his responsibility through reference to the committee too."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"That’s a lot of nonsense. The Minister of Health just appointed this committee, I think, some three weeks ago."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"The problem has been around for years."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"So has the member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. Leader of the Op- position."
]
}
] |
April 25, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-25/hansard-1
|
EXTENSION OF QEW
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"I’d like to ask a question of the Minister of Transportation and Communications.",
"Can he give a report to the House on the government plans to expand the Queen Elizabeth Way from Hamilton or Burlington to Niagara Falls and Fort Erie? Is it a basic policy, already accepted, that there will be a 12-lane facility even over Burlington Bay in the future."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. J. R. Rhodes (Minister of Transportation and Communications)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I can’t give the member a complete, detailed report at this time, but there certainly are studies going on as to expanding that section of the Queen Elizabeth Way; and there is a consulting firm now looking at increasing the carrying capacities over Burlington Bay or under it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Supplementary: Can the minister indicate what implication this will have for this year’s budget? And has there been an environmental impact review, particularly since the Niagara fruit belts will be affected by future development and have already been seriously affected by the expansion of that road?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I think it is fair and accurate to say that anything that will be done in the area will be done with the usual ministry policy of going in and having complete discussions with all of the people in the area; and carrying out our --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Not if it is to be done as it was in the past. That’s not good enough."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"-- environmental impact studies. We have people in the ministry taking care of that. I’ll get whatever information I can for the hon. member and make it available to him."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"I wish the minister would. I appreciate that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Scar- borough West."
]
}
] |
April 25, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-25/hansard-1
|
INDUSTRIAL MILK PRICES
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Yes, a question first, Mr. Speaker, of the Minister of Agriculture and Food:",
"In his statement he says:",
"“I wish to emphasize the suggested price increases would accrue to the producer; no processors should benefit from these higher levels, since in fact their cost margin should remain stable at current levels.”",
"Why, then, did the government allow the processors and the giants of the dairy industry to take 1.6 cents a quart I think it was, on the recent price increase in milk?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, this decision was made in conjunction with the Milk Marketing Board of the Province of Ontario which agreed to that breakdown in the five cent increase to the consumer. It was substantiated in an appeal before the Milk Commission, when the processors wished to have a greater percentage of the five cents a quart.",
"The Ontario Milk Commission substantiated the Milk Marketing Board’s position that the breakdown, I believe it is 1.6 cents, was warranted insofar as the figures that were presented to the Dairy Processors’",
"Council to both the Milk Marketing Board and the commission could be substantiated."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Well by way of supplementary, how is it that the minister has taken a government position in this case but not in the other, serving notice on everyone that he will not allow the processors to have more?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"I am quite careful about that, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The minister is very explicit about it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"I simply say that in this case --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"“No processor should benefit from these higher levels,” is what the minister is saying."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"Right -- ”should.” I said should; and that is a matter for the Milk Commission to determine if and when that increase is granted."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"I see."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"I simply expressed an opinion here as far as I am concerned."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Just an opinion. I see. Well, why did the minister express an opinion in this case and not in the other?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"I will go further, Mr. Speaker, to suggest that we are talking about industrial milk prices here."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"I understand that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"The other case was fluid milk --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"I understand that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"-- bottled milk. There is quite a difference."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Well, further -- All right, go ahead."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.",
"I want to talk about the other section of the minister’s statement, if the member wants to continue with the milk business."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Just one other question: Why did the minister take such a tough stand in this case but refuse to protect the consumers of Ontario in the fluid milk case?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, we were protecting the consumers of Ontario in the fluid milk case."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"By raising it five cents a quart.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"Exactly. A five cents a quart increase at consumer level was an assurance that there is going to be milk available in the future.",
"If my hon. friend --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Profit for the dairy industry is what the minister gave."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"If my hon. friend would read further in that statement --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"I have read the statement."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"I suggest that if he would look at what happened to the sugar industry in this province --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The minister did that!",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The minister put the nail in the coffin of the sugar industry."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order. Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"We did no such thing, Mr. Speaker, at any time.",
"We said, and will repeat, and now the federal government’s position -- at least the position of the federal Minister of Agriculture -- is in accordance with what I said at that time, that unless there was a national sugar policy whereby there would be a certain percentage of the domestic sugar requirements of this country produced in Canada, there was no way that we could assure the continuance of the sugar industry.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Supplementary to the minister’s statement -- both as he read it originally and in answer to the last question: Does he not agree with those many people in the agricultural industry, and specifically the sugar industry, who felt at the time the industry was closed down that while a national policy was inadequate, still the government of this province had a prime responsibility to see that that industry was maintained and that it was a matter of contention in this Legislature, with a clear alternative that the --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"It sure was."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"-- minister had and he rejected it --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"That’s right."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"-- and now he is saying it is a mistake, as we said at the time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"He had a clear alternative."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"I maintain the same position now as I did then, and my hon. friend the Leader of the Opposition jumps on his political podium and says, “Let’s make political hay,” or words to that effect.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"He is quick to criticize people, but he cannot take criticism when he is responsible."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"The real truth of the matter is that at that time the federal Minister of Agriculture and his cabinet colleagues with whom we met, in conjunction with the Sugar Beet Producers’ Marketing Board, clearly indicated they would not establish a national sugar policy --",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"The minister should have maintained it here. He could have done it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"-- and at that time there was no way that we could maintain an active industry here."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The minister should have done it.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order, order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"He criticizes other people."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"No, we are not criticizing other people."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"And he has given a ripoff to the processors in the dairy industry."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"That is why I support the federal minister in his campaign to establish a national sugar policy for Canada. And if the Leader of the Opposition would jump on the bandwagon with half as much enthusiasm with his friends in Ottawa as he does in this House regarding a national sugar policy for Canada --",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. A. Grossman (Provincial Secretary for Resources Development)",
"text": [
"That won’t sweeten them up."
]
}
] |
April 25, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-25/hansard-1
|
HEALTH AND SAFETY HAZARDS AT ELLIOT LAKE
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"A question, Mr. Speaker, of the Minister of Natural Resources, if I may.",
"Interjection by an hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Have the minister’s officials reported to him that the 500 workers who gathered in the hall at Elliot Lake last Monday night were not exercising their antagonism to the Ministry of Health, but one after the other were registering their antagonism toward and disappointment in the Ministry of Natural Resources for having betrayed them in terms of providing protections in the Denison Mines?",
"Has that yet been reported to him?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"They were right on."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have a report from the staff and a list of the --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"We have a transcript. The minister had best be careful."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"-- complaints which number 60 in all. As I said in my earlier statement, there is a proper procedure for the men to follow, by which they can go through the various supervisors and to the staff, and then my ministry employees become involved.",
"Interjection by an hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"We’ve heard a lot about --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"Their names weren’t even posted."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"We have two inspectors in the Elliot Lake area.",
"Interjection by an hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"They are always there to co-operate."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Remember this one?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"But these problems were not brought to our attention."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"Their names weren’t even posted."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Now they have been brought to our attention the member can rest assured we will look at every one of them individually."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The minister didn’t know the problem existed?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Scar- borough West."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"A supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"A supplementary? The hon. member for Sudbury East."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"In view of the report by the Ministry of Mines which in 1961 indicated there were problems with respect to ventilation and gas, how many tests has this ministry conducted with respect to gas and dust until November, 1973?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I would report to the hon. member from Sudbury -- I want to welcome him back to the Legislature; we’ve missed him in the House for some considerable time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Deal with the question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Answer the question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"The minister hasn’t been around that much himself."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"He wasn’t here on Tuesday. He shouldn’t shoot his mouth off."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"There have been tests untold and I’ll get the exact number and report to the member. I want to say to the member that those particular mines in the Elliot Lake area have spent considerable sums in the last few years at the insistence of my ministry to improve their ventilation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Ferrier",
"text": [
"The men’s health has been destroyed."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"Would the minister be surprised to learn that the only tests which have been taken have been by Denison; and this ministry has accepted those tests, which in fact have all been cooked?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"Same old story."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of that particular statement, but I want to make it very clear that in our discussions with the union in the last few months we have indicated to them that they can accompany our staff. They can be right with us as will be the representatives, of the company; the union can be with them when those tests are taken through all parts of the mine."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Sure, 12 years after the report."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"By way of supplementary, have I made --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"By way of supplementary, if I may?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Scar- borough West. The hon. member for Sudbury East has had two supplementaries."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"That’s just too bad. It’s an important issue."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Scar- borough West. Are there any further questions?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"I have a supplementary of this minister. Does the minister recognize that the 700 workers at Denison are still out until they get some kind of commitment from his ministry that after all these years he will begin to take seriously the disintegration of human health in the uranium industry? When is he going to give them that commitment so they can return to work?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I can assure the members of this House that we have always taken very seriously the health --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"Not true."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Why did they walk out of the mine?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"-- conditions and environmental conditions at any mine, and we will continue along those lines."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"A supplementary, Mr. Speaker: If the ministry has taken it so seriously and if so much has been added in ventilation, can he tell me why there are 140 silicosis cases in the Elliot Lake area?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, if the member would refer to my earlier remarks, he’ll have the answers to that particular question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"I have referred to his earlier remarks, they were nonsense from start to finish."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Does the hon. member for Scarborough West have further questions?"
]
}
] |
April 25, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-25/hansard-1
|
INQUIRY INTO HOSPITAL EMPLOYEES’ REMUNERATION
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Labour. It’s now Thursday, April 25, according to my dates, and the hospital workers have threatened to strike on May 1. What does he have to report to the Legislature?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. F. Guindon (Minister of Labour)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I did undertake to make a statement in the middle of the week concerning the negotiations between the Toronto hospitals and CUPE. However, there are very intensive meetings going on at this very moment and we have imposed a blackout on both sides. There is a point in time when the minister has to keep silent. This is it. Members will have to bear with me."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"That’s what he said the last time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"He is silent from the beginning of the year to the end of the year, in most cases."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon",
"text": [
"The member will have to bear with me. The members will have to bear with me. A statement will come from the government as soon as it is feasible."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Supplementary, if I may: Is it not true that the offer that was made by the hospitals in the last 24 hours was an offer which continued to maintain the disparity between the average wage for the hospital worker and those in comparable areas in the public sector at more than $1 an hour, and is therefore completely unacceptable to the hospital workers? Unless the minister gives the hospitals the additional money he is inviting a strike next week. Does he not understand that?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I am very much aware of the issues and I think it would be most inappropriate at this point in time to make any further comments on that issue."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"When is it appropriate?",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Rainy River."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, may I ask, by way of supplementary if the minister has asked his committee or commission that he has charged with looking into the wages of hospital workers, for an interim report so that he can have something in his hands to deal with the situation? Or is the minister going to wait until the matter has been resolved or there is a strike and then get his report?",
"Interjection by an hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon",
"text": [
"There is no doubt in anybody’s mind, Mr. Speaker, that the commission of inquiry which I appointed some time ago, in no way could interfere with the present negotiations. I don’t know how it appeared in the paper that the commission will not report before May 6. In fact, I don’t think the commission can report before, let’s say, August at the soonest."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Of course not. That is why the minister has to do something in the next five days."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"So why did the minister set it up that way?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"The minister wants the strike."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon",
"text": [
"Well, because we want eventually to know exactly --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The ministry is now studying the legal procedure of enjoining the workers before the courts."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon",
"text": [
"-- the comparison between similar jobs in the private and public sector. I am sure the commission will be of great value for both sides when it does report. I don’t know why the papers said that it should report before May 6."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. E. Sargent (Grey-Bruce)",
"text": [
"So the minister doesn’t think it will have any effect on this?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"Supplementary, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for High Park, supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. Shulman (High Park)",
"text": [
"Yes; is the Minister of Labour familiar with this report of the role study committee prepared by the Ontario Hospital Association which refers to the many duplications of services between the Ministry of Health and the Ontario Hospital Association? And if the minister is familiar with it, why does the government not move to eliminate these duplications and use all the money that would be saved to increase the hospital workers’ wages?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon",
"text": [
"Really, Mr. Speaker, I just don’t think I received that report. If the hon. member wants to make it available to me I would be glad to look at it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Scar- borough West."
]
}
] |
April 25, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-25/hansard-1
|
PARK NEAR KOMOKA
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Just one last question of the Minister of Natural Resources: Does the minister recall announcing, some time ago, the 1,800-acre park outside London, Ont., which was near Komoka? Am I right about that? And does he remember learning just after he announced the park that 22 days before his announcement an entire subdivision had been approved in the middle of the park by Treasury, Economics and Intergovernmental Affairs? What has happened to this day?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Yes, Mr. Speaker, I am very much aware of that elaborate urban type of provincial park which we are developing on the outskirts of the London"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"With a city in the middle of it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"It certainly is elaborate."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. E. Stokes (Thunder Bay)",
"text": [
"He has a highway going through another one."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Bounsall",
"text": [
"Called the great green belt."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"That park is for people in the London area and is going to be a tremendous success.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"They look like houses to me."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Yes, there was a subdivision which was approved."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Good",
"text": [
"A camper in every backyard."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"We have contacted Government Services and they are moving in to make the purchase; and if it has to be expropriated, we will do so."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"By way of supplementary, does the minister know that up until this week and into this week, the owner of the subdivision area has been bulldozing through the centre of the proposed park -- through the 50 acres; that pictures have been taken and are available; that he intends to proceed with the construction of the subdivision and has had no notice of intent to expropriate or any other word from any of the government’s ministries? Now, how does the minister allow that to be done to a provincial park?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I think this is entirely incorrect. I have been in contact with my colleague, the Minister of Government Services, and he assures me there has been contact made with this contractor."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"The minister might ask the members from the area too."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"I see. Well, may I say in self-defence that there has been contact. Has the minister served a notice of intent to expropriate?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I think the hon. member who asked the first question should be entitled to a supplementary.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"No further questions?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Yes, the hon. member for Downsview may have a supplementary question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Could the minister advise whether he has been in touch with his colleague, the Minister of the Environment to ascertain whether or not services are going to be provided in the middle of the provincial park -- water, sewers and so on? And is his colleague, the Minister of the Environment, working with him to maintain this as a park, or is it going ahead as a subdivision?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Well, Mr. Speaker, that contact --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"The minister is nodding even though he has never heard of it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"-- will be made in due course, as the hon member may know."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Oh, yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"He is going to start building next week."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"A couple of dandies after that one."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"We are establishing a committee --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. Haggerty (Welland South)",
"text": [
"Not another advisory committee."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"-- within the area, made up of very responsible people who will assist us in the --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"They’re all responsible there."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Even though they look like houses it is really a park."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"-- planning for that area; and when their report is received we will be making contact with the Minister of the Environment."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)",
"text": [
"Big greenhouses."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"The minister will have to change his park classification."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Scar- borough West has no further questions?",
"The hon. Minister of Colleges and Universities has the answer to a question asked previously."
]
}
] |
April 25, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-25/hansard-1
|
ADMISSION TESTS AT CAMBRIAN COLLEGE
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. J. A. C. Auld (Minister of Colleges and Universities)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, on Tuesday, the hon. member for Sudbury (Mr. Germa) asked if I was prepared to issue a directive to Cambrian College in Sudbury so that they would discontinue using the services of Dent Psychometrical Services from Dalton, Ohio, in order to determine admission tests of nursing students.",
"Well Mr. Speaker, as I stated in the House on April 23, it is our policy to permit different institutions to determine which students are selected for their nursing programmes. However, I share the hon. member’s concern regarding certain of these selection practices. There will be a meeting of chairmen of nursing education programmes on May 1 and one item on the agenda is this matter of psychometric testing.",
"In addition, the provincial advisory committee on nursing education, a body which reports to the Council of Regents, will be meeting in mid-May. I have requested that selection procedures be included on its agenda and I will be pleased to report to the House on the results of those meetings.",
"The hon. member also asked as a supplementary question: “Is the minister not aware that the community college at North Bay and the community college at Sault Ste. Marie are conducting their own admission tests into the nursing courses?”",
"In fact that is not quite correct. Canadore at North Bay is using the comparative guidance and placement test which is an American one, administered by the college but scored by Educational Testing Services of California. Work is being done at Canadore, however -- it’s going to be a long term process -- to adjust this test to make it a Canadian one.",
"At Sault College there are no psychological tests at the moment and they are looking at some tests for basic literacy and aptitude, especially for those who have been out of the profession for some time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. Minister of Natural Resources also has the answer to a question asked previously."
]
}
] |
April 25, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-25/hansard-1
|
BURNING OF WILDERNESS CABINS
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Yes, Mr. Speaker; I would like to reply to a question that was asked by the member for Port Arthur (Mr. Foulds). It was directed to the Provincial Secretary for Resources Development (Mr.",
"Grossman). It involved policy with regard to my ministry concerning the probe of developments on Crown land, particularly unauthorized developments.",
"I would just like to explain that in 1969 it was discovered that Mr. Denis Hobischuck had occupied Crown land with a frame cottage on Circle Lake west of Innes township without authority. This was in an area zoned for no development and Mr. Hobischuck was asked to make arrangements to have his building removed.",
"The time to effect removal was arranged but Mr. Hobischuck failed to vacate. Following notice to vacate Mr. Hobischuck agreed, but made every attempt to retain possession, including staking the area under the Mining Act. The building location was never authorized however, and notice and a warrant were eventually issued for removal, pursuant to the Public Lands Act.",
"Mr. Hobischuck was given ample notice that the building was to be removed and requested to remove his personal belongings. On March 13, 1974, ministry staff attended at the site, accompanied by an officer of the Ontario Provincial Police. All personal be- longings were removed from the building, itemized and placed under a plastic covering. The building was then dismantled and the remains were burned.",
"To summarize, Mr. Hobischuck occupied Crown land without authority in an area not open to disposition. His building was not a legitimate mining building and he did not stake the claim until notified to remove it. He attempted to secure the site in an area not open to others. He did not take advantage of the ample opportunity granted him to remove his interests and the building; and of course, the building was therefore removed as is provided under the Public Lands Act.",
"I would like to say that the unauthorized occupation of Crown land has become prevalent over the past years and my ministry is taking firm steps to bring it under control. Areas are being zoned for recreational use, in co-operation with representatives from the local interest groups, in the best interests of the public as a whole. To permit certain individuals to deliberately occupy lands without authority where occupancy is denied to law-abiding citizens would serve only to make mockery of the laws and would leave hollow the land use plan for the area.",
"With reference to Fallingsnow Lake, there are two cabins involved, owned by Jack Lankinen. One was originally authorized as a trapper’s cabin and the other in conjunction with a timber licence. The timber licence expired in 1970. Both cabins, originally authorized for resource harvesting, are now being used primarily as summer cottages. The shoreland of this lake was withdrawn from disposition because of lack of soil to support waste disposal. Others who have buildings on the shoreline have complied with the request to remove them.",
"The cabins claimed by Mr. Lankinen are on bedrock, less than 35 feet from the shoreline. Continued use of them as recreational accommodation will lead to pollution of one of the finest trout lakes in the vicinity. Mr. Lankinen was given ample opportunity to remove the building to a site well back from the lake where he would be granted a land use permit. He declined, and the sheriff was instructed to issue a formal notice, following which a warrant would issue for the removal.",
"I understand, however, that Mr. Lankinen has reconsidered and has asked the sheriff to delay issue of the notice to permit him to negotiate a new building location.",
"My ministry will lean over backwards to accommodate any legitimate use of Crown land. It cannot, however, condone continued abuses in the way of unauthorized occupation, contrary to the public interest, producing no revenue and often in defiance of the minimum health requirements, for a few bold individuals who are enjoying privileges denied the law-abiding citizens of this province.",
"In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, may I say that in our efforts to bring the widespread unauthorized use of Crown land under control, it is necessary in some instances to remove buildings, most of which have deteriorated beyond human habitation. These are usually dismantled, any usable materials salvaged and the refuse burned. We do not practise whole- sale destruction of buildings by burning them."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Supplementary, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"In my opinion the answer was a lengthy answer and should more properly have been given as a ministerial statement. I will, therefore, add two minutes to the question period."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"Supplementary, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Supplementary.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"It was just a little over four minutes in length."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Okay."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I assume that two or two and a half minutes is reasonable. I therefore add two minutes to the question period.",
"The hon. member for Port Arthur."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Can the minister explain when Mr. Hobischuck received the notice to vacate? And what assurance does he have from the ministry officials that Mr. Hobischuck received that notice? Isn’t it in fact true that the last letter that Mr. Hobischuck received was to the intent that the ministry was not going to proceed with the dismantling of the cabin?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I don’t have those exact dates, but this matter goes back to 1969 and the notices are sent by registered mail. We just accept it as for granted that he has received them. In fact, in this particular case I believe there has been conversation with Mr. Hobischuck in this connection."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Foulds",
"text": [
"Only after the verdict."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Elgin is next. The hon. member for Elgin."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Have we got one of those?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"We forgot who he was.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. McNeil",
"text": [
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"Stand up!"
]
}
] |
April 25, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-25/hansard-1
|
SUPPLY AND PRICE OF FERTILIZER
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. McNeil",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Agriculture and Food. Since some farmers are being limited in the amount of fertilizer they can obtain, can the Minister of Agriculture and Food --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"I was in St. Thomas last night."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. McNeil",
"text": [
"-- advise the House if sufficient fertilizer will be available this spring for spring planting?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. D. R. Timbrell (Minister without Portfolio)",
"text": [
"There’s lots of it over there."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Let’s have another national conference to find out the answer to that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"The member for York South is an expert on fertilizer. I’ll go along with that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, with great respect, perhaps the best authorities on the availability of fertilizer are immediately across the floor."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"That’s where it is."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"The minister ought to know. He adds to it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, in reply to my hon. friend’s question, I cannot provide an answer that there will be sufficient supplies of fertilizer for everyone this spring. I think it is fair to advise the House, however, that I have been in constant touch with the Plant Food Council of Ontario --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"Get some from the Minister of Natural Resources."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"-- and with several of the fertilizer manufacturing companies. I was encouraged yesterday to learn from United Co- operatives of Ontario, UCO, that they have just received, at long last, a boatload of phosphate fertilisers from Florida. These phosphate materials amounting to 14,000 tons will be unloading beginning on Saturday of this week. That, blended with the other, materials, will likely result in a volume of about 35,000 tons. We are also pleased to know that the Port Maitland plant will continue in operation for some time and we will gain, I expect, about 16,000 tons of superphosphate there."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Haggerty",
"text": [
"How much of that are they exporting?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"None of that will be ex- ported; that will all be for Ontario use."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Haggerty",
"text": [
"Good."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"We have been advised as well by United Co-operatives of Ontario that another boatload of phosphate fertilizer is on the way from Florida and will be available likely in time for corn planting.",
"There wall be a scarcity, I believe, of nitrogen fertilizers and we are concerned about this. We have been in touch, as recently as this morning, Mr. Speaker, with the plant food council again about available supplies of nitrogen fertilizers including anhydrous ammonia and urea. But I believe we should pay some tribute to United Co-operatives of Ontario.",
"I was interested to learn from the general manager that had they directed that boatload of fertilizer across the Atlantic to Europe rather than bringing it down the St. Lawrence --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"What has that got to do with the answer to the question?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"Certainly it has to do with the answer to the question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"It is another statement."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"-- that boatload of fertilizer --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"The question was simple and the minister answered it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"What was the name of the ship it was coming on?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"That boatload of fertilizer would have sold for $1 million more in Europe than it would sell for right here in the Province of Ontario. To my way of thinking that is good corporate responsibility shown to the Province of Ontario by UCO."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"That’s the exception that proves the rule in their moral responsibility in this field."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Rainy River."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"That’s a lot of fertilizer."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have a question --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I am sorry; the hon. member for Huron-Bruce wanted a supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. Gaunt (Huron-Bruce)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, a supplementary: In view of the fact the industry has made a commitment to supply our needs first and in view of the fact there have been, at various periods during this spring, large exports to the United States, could the minister give a commitment to meet with the industry and assure the farmers in this province that the earlier commitment of the industry will be fulfilled?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the only commitment I know of is to meet what they gave the industry last year in the Province of Ontario. I know of no other commitment beyond that. When one recognizes the fact there are greatly increased demands for fertilizer materials this year in Ontario, it just looks as though it would be very difficult to assure that they will all be met. They are trying to do it.",
"For instance, one company manufacturing anhydrous ammonia is guaranteeing at least nine per cent more than it manufactured last year. But those companies are tied up with long-term contracts for exports as well.",
"As a matter of fact, if they hadn’t those export contracts they would never have located here in the first place because the demand for fertilizer within Canada in the last few years has been so insignificant that we simply wouldn’t have fertilizer plants located here. I think we have to be fair enough and take that into consideration. On the other hand, there are some companies -- I should say distributors -- which depended completely on sources of fertilizer outside Ontario to meet their demands. They now find themselves with those sources restricted to a great degree and they are trying to find additional sources right here. I think we have to recognize that if the total volume of fertilizer in this country were offered to the world market they would have it just like that. They could sell it anywhere. For instance, UCO --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"If we were to set up a windmill, the minister could produce a lot of energy."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"I will tell the House I wouldn’t be able to compete with my friend from Wentworth, that is for sure."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"The NDP has just lost the fertilizer vote.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"Is this a filibuster?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"UCO advise me that urea, which is a nitrogen fertilizer, was offered at $260 a ton at Rotterdam, Europe, loaded on ship; the price here to the farmers is $170. When I hear these people across the floor talking about the ripoff of the corporate people --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"Shame."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"-- I have to think we have a lot to be thankful for right here."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. D. McKeough (Minister of Energy)",
"text": [
"They are not interested in fertilizer over there."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The two replies were quite lengthy and I am obliged to add some more time to the question period. There will be two more minutes.",
"The hon. member for Rainy River."
]
}
] |
April 25, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-25/hansard-1
|
VIOLENCE IN AMATEUR HOCKEY
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question of the Minister of Social and Community Services in regard to his statement today.",
"Is the minister aware that under section 7(a) someone in the sports field has to ask the minister to carry out an investigation and should the investigation not be carried out under section 7 subsection (b) of the Act?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Brunelle",
"text": [
"I would be very pleased, Mr. Speaker, to grant the request and to have the investigation under both 7(a) and 7{b)."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"Has anybody asked the minister?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. G. A. Kerr (Solicitor General)",
"text": [
"The member for Rainy River did."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Has the minister been asked?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Brunelle",
"text": [
"No."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"May I ask, by way of a supplementary, Mr. Speaker, what the terms of reference are of Mr. McMurtry? Is it going to cover all levels of hockey from peewee right up; and secondly, how much is he getting paid?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"The NHL particularly."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Brunelle",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have asked Mr. McMurtry to report back as soon as possible; and he expects to be able to report back within a month. The total cost of the inquiry will be about $5,000; and that includes his fees plus secretaries and so forth. I sent the hon. member a copy of the statement and he has received it. As he can see by the statement, especially in the last paragraph, it says --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Roy is not very busy these days."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"It’s not Roy."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Brunelle",
"text": [
"“ ... to examine the full circumstances and implications arising from this case ... ” Then subsequently we will be in a much better position to decide if a fuller and a more extensive study is required. I would be pleased to get the views of this hon. member as well as any other member in this House on this very important subject."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"This is another Part I study."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"Is Eagleson too busy?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Reid",
"text": [
"A supplementary, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order. In view of the shortness of time, I think one supplementary is sufficient.",
"The hon. member for Nickel Belt."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"The minister wouldn’t get Eagleson for that price."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"I have a question, Mr. Speaker, of the Minister of Labour."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Wasn’t Henderson available for that job?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Nickel Belt."
]
}
] |
April 25, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-25/hansard-1
|
EMPLOYMENT STANDARDS ACT
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"I have a question of the Minister of Labour, Mr. Speaker: Is the Minister of Labour now prepared to introduce an amendment to the Employment Standards Act that would make it mandatory for employers to compensate employees who are sent home from work as the result of a stop order so that workers do not continue to pay the price of pollution control in the Province of Ontario?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the Employment Standards Act is being reviewed at the present time by our legislative committee. However, this aspect has not been considered."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, a supplementary?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Sudbury East, a supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Martel",
"text": [
"A question of the Minister of Labour: In view of the fact that Falconbridge can simply add a few more charges per shift over the next week to recover what the losses were, and in view of the fact the salaried employees didn’t lose anything by the close-down, isn’t this government prepared to protect the rights of the hourly employees who lose all of their income in a shutdown. The only loser is the hourly employee."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. Newman",
"text": [
"Which way does the member for Sudbury East want it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon",
"text": [
"This ministry, particularly, is always concerned about the employees."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Always!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Grey-Bruce is up next."
]
}
] |
April 25, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-25/hansard-1
|
NEW HOSPITAL AT OWEN SOUND
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier, in view of the fact that yesterday the city of Owen Sound hospital board of governors have been notified that, regardless of the fact that their halls are full of beds at all times, we will not be getting a new hospital within the foreseeable future of one decade or so; and in view of the fact that the town of Midland has a new hospital with the ramifications that he knows about: and the fact that Hanover has a new $4 million hospital; will the Premier enlighten me, sir, on government policy on a large capital cost like a hospital? Is it the policy of the government to provide hospitals on the basis of need or political reasons? If need is the yardstick, I would appreciate it if he would give me and the people of Grey-Bruce, his word that he will investigate this scandalous situation and justify it to the people of our area."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. G. Davis (Premier)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I didn’t want to interrupt proceedings, but before I answer the question I’m sure the members will not object if I do take the opportunity to welcome to the Legislature grade 8 students from Huttonville public school, which happens to be geographically located in the riding of Peel North.",
"I would only say to the member for Grey-Bruce, yes, I can assure him that decisions of this nature are made on the basis of need."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"A supplementary, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"One supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"Will the Premier do me and my people the courtesy of investigating the need here and give me an answer on why we can’t get a hospital within the next decade, if he is still here?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr",
"text": [
"If?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I am delighted to have the presumption, at least, on the part of the member for Grey-Bruce that I will be here; I share that presumption with him. I can only say I will be quite pleased to discuss it with the Minister of Health."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Lanark."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"The Leader of the Opposition better have a talk with the member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"If we get a report --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"One supplementary is sufficient. The hon. member for Lanark.",
"Interjection by an hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Lanark. It has been agreed by the members to be courteous enough to restrict it to one supplementary in view of the shortness of time. I recognize the hon. member for Lanark."
]
}
] |
April 25, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-25/hansard-1
|
ALLEGED STOCKPILING OF BALER TWINE
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. D. J. Wiseman (Lanark)",
"text": [
"I have a question of the Minister of Agriculture and Food: Could the minister tell us if he is aware of wholesale suppliers of baler twine stockpiling the twine in hopes that they can drive the price even higher? Can his ministry do anything to stop this? I took the time today to phone four or five suppliers --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member should not make a statement; he should ask his questions."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Wiseman",
"text": [
"-- in my area and found it to be $20 to $30."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Wiseman",
"text": [
"Does the minister feel that some of these people are taking advantage of our farmers?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker I didn’t catch all of my hon. friend’s question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"Let him repeat it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"What was the price he was quoted this morning? I didn’t catch it; my friends over there were talking."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Wiseman",
"text": [
"The prices were anywhere from $20 to $30; and I wonder if the minister feels that at $30 they are taking advantage of our farmers?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Of what?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, several weeks ago I had the opportunity to meet with the executive officers of the UCO. We discussed this matter of twine because the UCO has had the reputation of supplying well over half of the total twine used in the Province of Ontario. At that time they assured us they would do everything they could to provide the usual sources of supply of baler twine but they were not sure at that time what the price might be.",
"I was assured as recently as yesterday that UCO have a boatload of twine now in Toronto harbour which will be unloaded forthwith. It will be shipped directly to their southwestern Ontario outlets and the price will be $19.95 per bale, cash and carry. To me that sets a price which is much less than my hon. friend quoted and which I have heard quoted in other places.",
"That shipment of twine represents 40 per cent of what they normally bring in. They have another 35 per cent on the way in another boatload which will be here a little later on. They feel they will be able to supply about 65 to 70 per cent of the total amount of twine necessary to meet requirements in the Province of Ontario. Again, I think that is a responsible position to take and should establish a decent price for twine in view of the very great scarcity of it throughout the world today."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"I think the minister is stringing us a line."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"A supplementary?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"We’re glad he asked that question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Wiseman",
"text": [
"A supplementary: Would it be fair to ask, who would bring this in at the $20 mark or under $20?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Which boat?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart",
"text": [
"United Co-operatives of Ontario."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Thunder Bay."
]
}
] |
April 25, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-25/hansard-1
|
MINAKI LODGE
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Stokes",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Industry and Tourism. Since the ministry has already spent in excess of $550,000 on Minaki Lodge and since the Ontario Development Corp. has already committed itself to an expenditure of about $5 million in additional funds, what kind of assurance is he going to give to the taxpayers of the Province of Ontario that they are going to get value for money? What kind of assurance can he give that before it is turned back to private enterprise the Province of Ontario will recover all of the money it has in it?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. C. Bennett (Minister of Industry and Tourism)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, first of all let’s get the $5 million straightened out. The cabinet has authorized a maximum expenditure of $5 million for the upgrading and improvement of Minaki. There will not be expenditures made without the approval of this government.",
"At the moment we have approximately $1.3 million invested in Minaki. That includes the $550,000 loan we made to Minaki originally, as well as paying off the first mortgage which was held by the original mortgagee to the property. As far as the value goes, in the projections we have, both from a government point of view and from an industrial point of view, it is clearly indicated to us that this is a valuable asset to the province. The expansion of it will mean a productive position as far as tourism is concerned in northwestern Ontario."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Run by Canadians."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Is that why the government is acting to sell it now?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett",
"text": [
"The assurance we give this House is that it is not the intention of this government to dispose of Minaki at a price lower than what our capital investment will be on the day, if it should come, when we will dispose of the asset."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"They’ll have it for a long time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Supplementary, Mr. Speaker --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"What was the price?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The oral question period has now expired."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"So much for Maple Mountain."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"The Minister of Agriculture and Food had two more questions ready for him, too."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Petitions."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have a petition which I would have liked to read while the Minister of Education (Mr. Wells) was here, but since it is pressing I’ll read it now:",
"“To the Lieutenant Governor and the Legislative Assembly of the Province of Ontario.",
"“Hon. Sir and members of the Legislature:",
"“We, the undersigned, James H. Robertson and Irvine D. Muir, do hereby present our humble petition to the assembly on behalf of the concerned citizens of the municipalities of Wainfleet, West Lincoln and Pelham for the redress by this House of our grievance, to wit:",
"“1. Niagara South Board of Education was petitioned following the advice of the hon. Minister of Education on Feb. 5, 1974, at Niagara Falls;",
"“2. The Niagara South Board of Education has declined to act concerning our grievances; and",
"“3. That the impasse between the Niagara South Board of Education and the 2,434 signatories can only be resolved if this House should choose to intervene.",
"“To this end we humbly request such action by the House as follows:",
"“1. That we be heard by the social development committee or any other appropriate committee regarding these grievances;",
"“2. That the House initiate a study of the educational needs of Niagara South Board of Education and Lincoln County Board of Education as requested here and as requested also by the governments of the town of Pelham and the township of West Lincoln;",
"“3. That the closing of Pelham Secondary School in June, 1974, be rescinded.”",
"And it is signed accordingly.",
"Mr. Speaker, I have photostated the full petition with the 2,400 names, and when the Minister of Education returns to the House, we shall take some time to question him. Thank you, sir."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Presenting reports.",
"Mr. J. A. Taylor, from the standing private bills committee, presented the committee’s report which was read as follows and adopted:",
"Your committee begs to report the following bills without amendment:",
"Bill Pr22, An Act respecting the Waterloo-Wellington Airport.",
"Bill Pr24, An Act respecting the city of Chatham.",
"Bill Pr25, An Act respecting Savings and Investment Trust.",
"Bill Pr26, An Act respecting Lake of the Woods District Hospital.",
"Bill Pr28, An Act respecting the Presbyterian Church Building Corp.",
"Your committee begs to report the following bills with certain amendments:",
"Bill Pr15, An Act respecting the city of Kitchener.",
"Bill Pr21, An Act respecting the University of Western Ontario.",
"Bill Pr29, An Act respecting the city of Windsor.",
"Bill Pr31, An Act respecting the city of London.",
"Your committee would recommend that the fees, less the actual cost of printing and penalties, if any, be remitted on Bill Pr26, An Act respecting Lake of the Woods District Hospital, and Bill Pr28, An Act respecting the Presbyterian Church Building Corp."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Motions.",
"Introduction of bills."
]
}
] |
April 25, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-25/hansard-1
|
MINISTRY OF GOVERNMENT SERVICES ACT
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this bill is to provide for an expansion to the section of the Ministry of Government Services Act and to make sure that the government require tenders for all purchases of goods or of real estate exceeding $750; that there be no contracts let without tender except in cases of emergency, and that if there is such an emergency and the minister responsible feels he should let a contract without a tender he is compelled to immediately report to the House the circumstances of such an emergency."
]
}
] |
April 25, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-25/hansard-1
|
FIRE PROTECTION ACT
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Deans",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the bill provides that certain buildings or structures over three storeys in height, or 45 ft in height to the roof line above grade, be equipped with approved automatic fire extinguishing systems. The purpose of the bill, I suspect, is obvious to all members of the House. It is an attempt to bring about a safer environment in which to work and to live, and to eliminate much of the loss that has been occurring, by requiring that older buildings renovated for new purposes include fire extinguishing services."
]
}
] |
April 25, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-25/hansard-1
|
HIGHWAY TRAFFIC ACT
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. Riddell (Huron)",
"text": [
"The bill, Mr. Speaker, provides more adequate legislation pertaining to the construction, safety features and operation of school buses. It outlines the necessary qualifications for a school bus operator and provides for the retesting of school bus operators when their chauffeur’s licences are due for renewal.",
"It requires operators of school buses to report to the ministry where they have refused to operate a school bus because they considered the vehicle to be unsafe, mechanically unfit or overloaded. It extends the duties of drivers to situations where a school bus may be travelling on that part of a highway where the speed limit is less than 35 miles an hour.",
"Lastly, the amendment provides for school bus safety standards and a school bus patrol programme. These standards, Mr. Speaker, incorporate the recommendations of the Ontario Public School Men Teachers’ Federation regarding school bus safety."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, before I introduce my bill, I would like to call to the attention of the members of the Legislature two groups from northwestern Ontario. One group is composed of public school students from Cochenour, Ont. I would say that this is one of the most northerly schools in the Province of Ontario. They have come down by CNR and the trip down here took them about 27 hours. I am pleased to say that they have participated in the Young Voyageur programme, which of course pays for about 90 per cent of the travelling costs of those groups of students from northern Ontario.",
"In addition, we have a group from the Keewatin Public School, led by Mr. Morrison, their teacher; and the Cochenour Public School group is led by Mr. Perchaluk. We would like to welcome them."
]
}
] |
April 25, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-25/hansard-1
|
FOREST FIRES PREVENTION ACT
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, this is a housekeeping bill in nature; it brings the wording of sections into line with the reorganization of the Ministry of Natural Resources."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Orders of the day."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Clerk of the House",
"text": [
"The second order; House in committee of the whole."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, before we proceed, is it the House leader’s intention to proceed with the Energy estimates immediately after this bill has been completed?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)",
"text": [
"Yes, Mr. Speaker, I think in fairness, this evening I will endeavour to give the House a full account of the legislative programme."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Okay. Thank you very much."
]
}
] |
April 25, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-25/hansard-1
|
LAND TRANSFER TAX ACT (CONCLUDED)
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Bill 26, the Land Transfer Tax Act, 1974. We were discussing section 4 when we rose.",
"On section 4:"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. A. K. Meen (Minister of Revenue)",
"text": [
"Yes, Mr. Chairman, when we adjourned we were discussing section 4, and I believe the hon. member for Riverdale was speaking with respect to subsections (7) and (8). He may have some comments to offer on those at this moment.",
"Perhaps I would simply observe that in the interval my staff and I have had a chance to consider -- as I always try to do -- but I had an opportunity to consider in detail the arguments advanced by the hon. member for Riverdale. Frankly, I want to compliment him on his analysis of the subject as he expressed it to us.",
"We have concluded that there is some merit in what he has said about those subsections. In the past, and they are subsections taken from the old Act, they have never been contested in the courts. There is some question in our minds, too, as to their constitutional validity. We think that in the circumstances we could very well entertain a motion by the member for Riverdale to delete subsections (7) and (8) from the bill, on the understanding that my ministry would then require more than the three- year period presently provided under another subsection to enforce any lien which might arise and not come to our attention for some while.",
"So I would be moving, when we eventually reach section 7, subsection (3), to change the period as set out in that section from three years to read six years."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. A. Renwick (Riverdale)",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the remarks of the minister. I have had an opportunity to consider the amendment which he proposes, to delete subsections (7) and (8) of section 4 of the bill. I would so move that deletion. Then I would like to have an opportunity to speak to it, if I may, Mr. Chairman.",
"Mr. Renwick moves that subsections (7) and (8) of section 4 of the bill be deleted."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I want to speak to the motion because while I appreciate the minister and his advisers believe it would be wise constitutionally to delete the clauses, I do not want anyone to have the impression that that necessarily cures the constitutional defect in the bill. I don’t intend to go on at any great length but I would like to look at the provision of subsection (7), which reads as follows:",
"“When the affidavit required by subsection (1) is made by the transferor or by a person acting as attorney, agent or solicitor for the transferor, the transferor is personally liable to the Crown jointly and severally with the transferee for the amount of the tax.”",
"Subsection 8:",
"“Where the transferor is compelled to pay the tax or a part thereof, he has the right to recover the amount so paid from the transferee in an action in any court of competent jurisdiction.”",
"The classic statement, of course, with respect to the imposition of taxes by a provincial Legislature, is the case of the Bank of Toronto and Lamb, which was on appeal to the Privy Council in 1887. I am referring to an excerpt from it as published in the Laskin’s Canadian Constitutional Law, fourth edition, which has just recently been issued.",
"“The question before the court in the Lamb case was whether a particular tax,” [and I don’t need to go into the question of the nature of the tax in that case] “was direct or indirect, and whether it was a tax levied within the province. The provision of the North America Act, subsection 2 of section 92 specifically grants authority, limited as it is by the words of that section, to ‘direct taxation within the province in order to the raising of a revenue for provincial purposes.’”",
"The first question which came up was whether or not it was a direct tax or an indirect tax, and I quote further on in the case:",
"“After some consideration, Mr. Kerr, counsel for the appellant, chose the definition of John Stuart Mill as the one he would prefer to abide by. That definition is as follows: ‘Taxes are either direct or indirect. A direct tax is one which is demanded from the very persons who it is intended or desired should pay it. Indirect taxes are those which are demanded from one person in the expectation and intention that he shall indemnify himself at the expense of another.’",
"“The Privy Council went on to say: ‘Their lordships then take Mill’s definition, above quoted, as a fair basis for testing the character of the taxing question, not only because it is chosen by the appellants counsel, nor only because it is that of an eminent writer, nor with the intention that it should be considered a binding legal definition, but because it seems to them to embody with sufficient accuracy for this purpose an understanding of the most obvious indicia of direct and indirect taxation, which is a common understanding and is likely to have been present in the minds of those who passed the Federation Act.’",
"“Having decided the nature of the tax in that particular case, the next question which the Privy Council had to consider is whether the tax is taxation within the province. The answer to this argument is that class 2 of section 92 does not require that the persons to be taxed by Quebec are to be domiciled or even resident in Quebec. Any person found within the province may legally be taxed there if taxed directly.”",
"I am making the point that while, as I stated, I welcome the minister’s agreement with the point insofar as sections 7 and 8 are concerned, the mere deletion of those sections does not necessarily solve the problem. It is perfectly clear that the intention is to impose the tax on the non-resident, not the non- resident if he happens to be found within the jurisdiction, but it is intended that the basic tax be a tax imposed on the non-resident.",
"If I can drop the word “Quebec” from the quotation which I used and refer to Ontario regarding the question of whether the taxation is within the province, the answer to this argument is that class 2 of section 92 does not require that the persons to be taxed by Ontario are to be domiciled or even resident in Ontario. Any person found within the province may legally be taxed there if taxed directly.",
"Well, probably some day in the Supreme Court of Canada the case will have made its way up to that level, because we are imposing a tax which is of sufficient magnitude to make it worth somebody’s while, it would appear to me, to challenge the validity of the tax. And, one of these days -- I am not given often to prophecy -- I wouldn’t be at all surprised, or perhaps I could put it in a slightly less positive way, I am inclined to the view that somebody will test this tax in the Supreme Court of Ontario and ultimately it will find its way to the Supreme Court of Canada, and the question which my friend, the Minister of Revenue -- when he was speaking with me about his intention to introduce the proposed amendment -- referred to as an esoteric one may possibly become one of immense practicality insofar as the intentions of the government are concerned with respect to this Act.",
"I felt it wise in the circumstances to make these comments because, even though I move the amendment and I appreciate the minister’s remarks about the point which I made on Friday, I personally believe that the bill remains flawed in respect of any endeavour to tax persons beyond this jurisdiction, who are the persons who are intended to bear the tax. If a non-resident or a corporation controlled by non-residents is the party involved, so that the person is within the jurisdiction, that’s a different matter, but it is intended to impose a tax under this Act on non-resident persons who do not happen to be within the jurisdiction, and it is that part of the taxing jurisdiction which I believe will ultimately show that the prime taxing section, subsection (2) of section 2, will be held to be beyond the powers of the province."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, with respect, I think the hon. member is misinterpreting what I believe to be the ratio decidendi to be taken from the case of Bank of Toronto and Lamb, namely, that in interpretating section 9, subsection 2, the capacity is in the provinces to tax any person found within its boundaries. The hon. member says that himself. Now the tax is imposed at the time of registration of the instrument and is payable by the person who registers it. Therefore, although it may be a tax computed dependent upon the residency of the grantee as set out in the deed, it is our opinion that it is within the constitutional competence of the province to tax. We felt that these two sections, as indicated by the hon. member when we were deciding this on Tuesday last, not Friday were --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"I think we could leave it to the nine men in Ottawa to decide it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"That may well be. It may well be that nine men in Ottawa may eventually make a decision on this. I would assume, and perfectly believe, that they will make it in our favour. Perhaps the hon. member would like to take the case on the opposite side and appeal it to the Supreme Court of Canada somewhat, because as he indicates, there may well be some cases where some righteously indignant non-resident may be prepared to pay his fee to carry that to the Supreme Court of Canada to contest the matter.",
"However, I don’t know why we are wasting time at this point. I gather we are all in agreement that subsections (7) and (8) should be deleted, although I notice the hon. member for Kitchener might care to say a word before we carry the section."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I am content with the logic of the member for Riverdale and his exposition of the point. I share with him the concern that there is the possibility of involving ourselves in a constitutional matter with respect to direct taxation. I presume that this matter may eventually go before the Supreme Court of Canada and, of course, the result will be something that will guide us in any future legislation that may be brought before this House. I am content, certainly, that the two subsections are being deleted by the minister and we are pleased to accept this move."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The member for Ottawa Centre."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. Cassidy (Ottawa Centre)",
"text": [
"I just have a question or two, Mr. Chairman, about this, not in relation to the specifics, to which I bow to the constitutional wisdom of the minister and the member for Riverdale, but to the straight questions of enforcement which are then created and would exist anyway but are exacerbated by the deletion of these two sections.",
"When the two sections were in, then if the transferor was a resident of Ontario you had him within the jurisdiction of Ontario and you could find various means of enforcing collection of the tax upon the transferor if you couldn’t get hold of the tax from the transferee. That has now ended in the cases where the transferee makes the registration.",
"In cases where the transferor makes the registration, then under section 9 if false statements have been made on affidavit, you can conceivably get your money by means of penalty, according to the penalty clauses of the Act. You still can’t get your tax, though, because the transferor is no longer jointly liable for the tax. If the transferee is a non-resident who takes pains not to actually set foot in Ontario but who has title to the land, we then may have an exceptionally difficult time actually making collection.",
"It seems to me that what is needed in the bill, and what is lacking, is some means by which a lien can be put upon the property in cases of non-payment of tax where the non-payment was discovered after the original conveyance had been registered. This could arise because of a dispute between the solicitors for the transferee and the law as to whether or not he was liable, or in fact a deliberate attempt to find loopholes and to evade the tax.",
"Nevertheless, in a case of a non-resident transferee, if we don’t have a lien against the property, it may be that the transferee can proceed to sell the property back to some Canadian or some other non-resident and to get out of the deal and that there is an incentive for him to come in, avoid the tax with intent and then get back out of the deal if he’s found out.",
"Now, if there is a lien on the property or some kind of encumbrance that the minister can put on the property -- and possibly he has other means of doing that -- then obviously the lien will be either reflected in the future price or it will inhibit the sale to the point where the transferee who is a non-resident will be sure to pay the tax when we catch him."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, ordinarily the affidavit would be taken by the transferee. He’s the one with knowledge of whether he is resident or non-resident. I think it would be an unusual case, in any event, where the transferor swore the affidavit; it is not in his interest to swear it in as much as the tax is payable on behalf of the transferee, whoever he may be. It’s possible, of course, that a false affidavit could be sworn in some kind of collusive arrangement. Now, we have all kinds of provisions for penalties, but if we can’t get at the deponent in the affidavit, whether he’s out of the jurisdiction for any reason, then of course that part goes by the way.",
"We have provided for a lien only during the interim period from and including April 10 to the date of proclamation of the Act, simply because at this stage there is no Act and we don’t want to treat this retroactively in a sense.",
"Otherwise, the penalties for the swearing of a false affidavit are pretty substantial. First of all, the amount of the tax payable as tax is a penalty. Secondly, there is a fine of a minimum of $50 and a maximum of $1,000. And, thirdly, under the Criminal Code, section 112, I believe, there is provision for up to 14 years in prison for fraud or the swearing or a false affidavit. So there are very serious penalties that flow, both financially and punitively, for the swearing of a false affidavit related to this kind of thing.",
"What the hon. member for Ottawa Centre says is true, I suppose, in that if we can’t get at him, we may not be able to enforce such a penalty. But we think that in the long run there’s little chance of many people escaping. I just can’t imagine that there would be that number of people who would be pre- pared to perjure themselves in their own interest, to say nothing of in the interests of someone else.",
"In the interest, too, of avoiding the clouding of every title, I think counsel, solicitors and their clerks investigating titles have to be able to look at these documents and determine on their face whether they are proper or not.",
"Given the opportunity then of the ministry to investigate these for a period of six years. if any evidence comes to the attention of the ministry of false affidavits, for instance, and with the ministry then able to pursue the individual who swore that false affidavit, we would then have adequate means to enforce the affidavit and the collection of the tax without the requirement of the imposition of a lien. You can see it would put conveyancing and the law oi conveyancing in a virtually impossible position if this were to create a lien arising out of the transaction."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, as the minister says, most people working in good faith are not going to perjure themselves in an affidavit.",
"We discussed in the Legislature a couple of days ago various devices which might or might not be defined as foreign-controlled corporations which were buying and selling land in Ontario. Presumably those would be the kinds of devices that one would find in cases where the tax was not paid and where the ministry subsequently decided that the tax should have been paid. If the non-resident chooses to keep out of the country, the ministry can’t do much about getting him on the violation of the Criminal Code, or the sections about false affidavits. But the way the law stands right now, nor could it do very much about getting the tax from them; and it seems to me that it shouldn’t let both of those elude its grasp. Therefore, should there not be a provision by which the ministry can place a lien on the property where it is determined in the opinion of the ministry that the property was conveyed, or transferred, to the non-resident and it was done so without payment of tax and with the intention, let’s say, of evading the tax?",
"I agree that not every property transferred to a non-resident should have a lien placed upon it. It’s clearly, though, to come in as a means of enforcement; otherwise the ministry is left powerless. It’s left with somebody who can come waltzing into the province, pick up the property, do whatever they wish with it, and a year or three later sell it again without paying this tax that was designed to deter them, or discourage them, from getting involved in the real estate market in Ontario."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I think it should be borne in mind, Mr. Chairman, that this is with respect to the purchaser. Should it come to the attention of the ministry that no tax was paid, then there are provisions later on in the bill -- I believe it’s section 9, but I would ask counsel to just confirm this to me -- in which the minister may then take steps to recover the tax that was payable, together with interest at nine per cent on the outstanding amount.",
"So, if the property is still there and it’s still held by the non-resident, then there is adequate opportunity, at least, for the ministry to proceed to recovery of the outstanding amount. It’s hanging over the head of the non-resident purchaser for a period of six years, if it should ever come to the attention of this ministry."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"If I read this correctly, the interest on the unpaid tax accrues at nine per cent a year but the charge does not accrue against the property. It accrues against the owner and the ministry can get to the property, but it may not be able to get to the owner."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I’m sorry but the member has just said both sides of the argument. It does, in fact, accrue against the owner and is recoverable against him in the Supreme Court under section 14, I think it is. In any event, by the subsequent sections in the bill, there is provision for recovery of the tax against the owner.",
"Motion agreed to.",
"Section 4, as amended, agreed to.",
"On section 5:"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"On section 5 -- and I don’t want to belabour it at great length at this point -- but my colleague, the member for Ottawa Centre, raises the question of enforcement. Of course, clause 5 sets out the procedure which would be followed -- it has nothing to do with false affidavits, or collusive affidavits, speaking here.",
"This sets out in some minute detail the exact procedure to be followed by a person who is called upon to pay the tax and the method by which he will dispute the questions of law which may be involved, or the facts which may be involved.",
"It provides, then, for an application. After consideration by the minister, and if there are questions of law, or questions of law in fact which can be agreed on, the matter can be referred to the Supreme Court. If the minister doesn’t do it within a certain number of days, then the person disputing the payment of tax can do it.",
"I think it’s the reverse side of the question which was raised by my colleague, the member for Ottawa Centre. I notice that there are provisions in the regulations to provide for the collection of tax and the appointment of persons other than collectors to collect the tax, and establishing a procedure for the collection of the tax. If this is a constitutional question of a non-resident person not within the jurisdiction being required to pay the tax, then I think it should be made perfectly clear on the record, as I’m sure the minister and his advisers know, that it is a trite proposition of international law that one juris- diction will not enforce the revenue laws of another jurisdiction.",
"So it is not as if in the collection of the tax that the minister would have the benefit of being able to call in force something in the nature of the procedures set out in the Reciprocal Enforcement of Judgements Act of the Province of Ontario, where reciprocity is established between various jurisdictions for the enforcement of the judgements of the courts of Ontario in the courts of other jurisdictions and vice versa.",
"I simply wanted to make the point on the record that the Reciprocal Enforcement of Judgements Act or some analogous procedure is not available to the Crown in the right of the Province of Ontario in endeavouring to enforce a judgement of the court against a non-resident person not within the jurisdiction, to collect a tax against such a person by having access to the courts of the jurisdiction in which the particular non-resident person is either domiciled or resides or of which he is a national."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Anything further on section 5? The hon. minister."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I am not really certain that there is not some kind of arrangement for collection, but if there is not I think that’s an interesting point to pursue. Otherwise, I don’t think I have any question or any point as to section 5 itself.",
"Section 5, subsection (1) is a direct take from the old Act with one or two little housekeeping amendments in it to tailor it to this new Act. Subsection (2) is new, as the hon. member for Riverdale has indicated, to provide for appeals and the other process necessary.",
"Section 5 agreed to.",
"On Section 6:"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"On section 6 the hon. minister has an amendment.",
"Hon. Mr. Meen moves that subsection (1) of section 6 of the bill be amended by striking out “or was registered against the land on or after that date” in the 11th line and by inserting thereof “as part of or subsequent to the transaction or series of transactions that resulted in the tender for registration of the conveyance evidencing or carrying into effect the transaction or series of transactions.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The member for Riverdale."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"I think it would be wise for anyone looking at this debate, as people may, if the minister would repeat succinctly in his own laconic way the reason for the proposed amendment which he gave us some days ago when the bill first came on for second reading, so that when the amendment is considered in Hansard by those who are interested in these matters, the reasons would be available at the point where the amendment was put."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"This is being done for the sake of history."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I would be pleased to, Mr. Chairman. The difficulty is that when this Act becomes law there will be a lien potentially for any unpaid tax resulting on any transaction dating back to April 9.",
"Any mortgage advances that may have been made on building loans and otherwise in the meantime to builders themselves, Ontario or Canadian residents, by institutional mortgage loan companies would, as the section stands without amendment, be in a secondary position to a lien which might arise at some subsequent date and before the Act is proclaimed with respect to the non-resident status of a purchaser from that builder. It therefore created the apparition in the mind -- and it was a very real one -- of the lending institutions not being able, in fact, to make these loans because their authority is to make them only where they are a first charge without any encumbrance and priority to them.",
"It is for that reason, of course, that as the mortgagee’s solicitors make the advances they double check as to corporation tax liens and other questions that have to be checked out on the title itself, mechanics’ liens and the like, before any advance under a mortgage is made. This is therefore intended to protect those advances.",
"It is not our intention to have any such lien in priority to bona fide mortgage advances made prior to any sale to a non-resident. The section as amended by the amendment just read by you, Mr. Chairman, would, I believe, adequately protect these mortgage advances as they come along, but will nevertheless protect the lien where a sale might be made by, let’s say, a builder or a vendor, to a non-resident, whereby as part of that transaction he took back a second mortgage. That second mortgage would not by the wording of this amendment be in priority to the hen. In fact, under those circumstances it is intended that the lien would have priority over the second mortgage or other charge which arose at the time of, and out of, the arrangements through which the eventual conveyance to the non-resident took place.",
"Motion agreed to."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Shall section 6, as amended, stand as part of the bill?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, the minister has power to waive the lien conferred in section 6 -- this is under subsection (7). Could the minister state under what circumstances he envisages waiving this particular lien, and why?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, it is hard to envisage this at this time. I must say to the hon. member that subsection (7) of section 6, I think would have done what my amendment to subsection (1) accomplishes in a direct fashion; the subsection (7) would have covered that kind of thing.",
"Now there may be others; we simply don’t know. As I indicated earlier in these debates, in sailing through these unchartered waters we may well encounter areas which we simply did not anticipate, areas in which we may have to give some kind of postponement or abandonment, but I don’t know.",
"In this case there might well be some. For example, perhaps they would want to post security. Now if they were prepared to give me security for the loan, then the minister might well be in a position to release the lien which might otherwise be a cloud on the title. So there are various ways and reasons which could come up in the future, which we can’t envisage by specifics at this time, for which authority might be necessary under subsection (7)."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I think the simple way to discharge a lien would be to pay the tax, is it not?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Not necessarily, Mr. Chairman, because the money might not be there to pay the tax, but if the ministry were prepared to accept adequate security, the lien for the tax could then be waived."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Is the minister then suggesting that the ministry will be prepared to accept security for a lien in a number of cases in order to permit an owner to resell his property and then presumably to pay the tax out of the proceeds of that sale? Because if that is the case, then it is a deliberate encouragement to passing on the 20 per cent tax and applying it against the next purchaser, rather than against the non-resident transferee."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, the lien only arises during this very short period of time. We simply cannot envisage at this point what these requirements might be. I can’t imagine very many instances in which it would be necessary to do this, because ordinarily we would simply require the payment of the tax.",
"But particularly at this time and with respect to foreign non-resident contracts, it may be that, if they are unable to satisfy the minister that the contract was executed before April 9 and thereby escaped the tax, they would not have the money but that they would have other means whereby they could put up security for the payment of that money at some deferred date. It isn’t intended to permit them to acquire title and roll it over again, but let me say this that, even if that were the case, it still is a 20 per cent disincentive to a non-resident, compared with a resident, in any of these real estate transactions."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"I question a number of discretionary clauses that are put in with the bill, Mr. Chairman. I just wonder whether the minister, given the fact that he doesn’t really see a need for this and that he has covered the major areas he wanted to cover, would take this one out and couldn’t either reduce or eliminate the other areas of discretion. I don’t think the government intends to use these in any high, wide and handsome kind of way. In fact, the entire purpose of the Act could be vitiated. You could make the Act completely useless by means of discretion which is built into the Act here and elsewhere, and that’s an awfully broad discretionary power."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I agree that there is discretion, but I think the hon. members must realize, as I have said already, and I don’t like to repeat myself although some members opposite seem to be quite prepared to do that, that I simply do require some area of latitude in the exercise of discretion here. Although I cannot now picture as many instances in which one might have to exercise that sort of discretion under subsection (7) as I did before, nevertheless, there are these other areas where payment of the tax might not be possible and where payment of the security or delivery of security in place of the tax would be an appropriate way to be able to clear the title and to take the cloud off the title, otherwise created by the lien."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Okay, the minister has stated his point of view. We are going into untrodden territory with the tax. I wonder whether the minister would be willing to do the following: At the end of each year or at some similar appropriate time, would he be willing to report to the Legislature, in whatever form is convenient, about his exercise of discretion under the various discretionary clauses in the Act? I am not suggesting a case-by-case kind of report, but some means by which the members of the Legislature and the public can understand how and whether discretion was used and also, at the same time, to report to the Legislature on the volume and types of transactions which were in order to fill that information vacuum which the minister himself acknowledged exists in the interchange with the member for Riverdale."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, perhaps the hon. member wasn’t here the other day when I said that we will be monitoring all of these matters with great care over the next few months. It might even be possible, if we have assembled adequate information in a readable, presentable form, before we rise at the end of June or whenever we rise for the summer vacation, that I will have some information for hon. members. I am not sure that it would be practical to try to report on every last case in which waivers of this sort were given."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Agreed."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Nevertheless, some sort of summary of the numbers and that kind of thing will doubtless appear in the reports of my ministry in one fashion or another in the months and years ahead, particularly as we watch very carefully the way in which this Act and the Land Speculation Tax Act are working."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Let me try to narrow that down. The reports of the minister, like a number of government reports, tend to arrive on our desks about 15 months after the end of the fiscal year to which they relate. Would the minister agree to report more promptly than that, and regularly on the operations of this Act and the Land Speculation Tax Act?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"No, I don’t think I can, Mr. Chairman. I simply have no idea, and I don’t think any hon. member of this House has any idea either, of just how much work may be involved and how much detail involved, how much sorting, compilation, and all the other matters that would go into this sort of thing. I won’t give that undertaking at this time.",
"I can tell the hon. members that we are just as anxious as they are to be able to see the effects and the degree of effects of both these Acts -- this and the Land Speculation Tax Act. I will have statements available from time to time, I would hope, for the hon. members; but I am not going to undertake any specific period of time for entering the report.",
"Section 6, as amended, agreed to.",
"On section 7:"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"On section 7 the minister has an amendment to subsection (3), I believe.",
"Hon. Mr. Meen moves that subsection (3) of section 7 be amended by striking out “three” years in the second line and inserting “six”."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"With respect to the amendment, I have no particular comment on that, but what does interest me in this section, Mr. Chairman, is the penalty section in subsection (1). It appears to me that --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Does that have any effect on this? If not we can get this out of the way and then we can discuss subsection (1)."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"That is quite satisfactory, unless my friend has some comments to make in respect to the six-year matter."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"I did want to make one. Does it matter? I wanted to make one comment about it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Kitchener may proceed."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"All right, Mr. Chairman. The point that I raise will not be a lengthy one, but it deals particularly with the matters of the amounts of penalties that are set out in subsection (1). It seems to me that the approach which is being taken, that is, to have a penalty provision ranging from $50 to $1,000, is hardly adequate."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Has the hon. member thought of all the other penalties that apply, too?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"No, I agree that there are other penalties. Indeed, the minister had commented earlier on those that deal with a matter of fraud and with respect to the possibility of incarceration as a result; and to those which deal, of course, with the necessity of payment of the tax that has been avoided."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Times two."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Those are two substantial penalties, but it seems to me that we should have a further penalty and one that is a little more substantial than the approach that is set out here. It may, for some at least, equate this as almost a tax for avoiding the thing. I think that we should be much more concerned about a substantial penalty.",
"It doesn’t seem to me that, in addition to the tax which should have been paid, or the matter of a possibility of a personal incarceration, that we, indeed, are even coming anywhere close to recovering possibly some of the costs of investigation and the other matters to which the ministry is put. I think that if the penalty provision were increased, we could come to a little closer balance in the thing.",
"This is only my comment and I would like to hear the minister’s view as to why this ratio is deemed to be acceptable."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Look, Mr. Chairman, it goes something like this. Suppose the tax payable were a couple of thousand dollars, okay. In addition to having to pay the tax, he has a $2,000 fine. In addition to that, he has something ranging between $50 and $1,000. Now, I don’t know what kind of costs would be involved to my ministry in investigation and prosecution of the matter, but I would assume that it would be covered by the degree of the $50 to $1,000 fine -- somewhere in that region -- plus the added amount of tax.",
"Recognize, then, that if the tax was $2,000 -- and I am taking a minimal case, a very small little deal, $10,000 for the $2,000 tax. Maybe we should be more realistic and take a $50,000 deal, in which the tax would then be $10,000. The penalty would be another $10,000. And so the non-resident, properly having to pay $10,000, winds up having to pay twice. He has paid a 40 per cent surcharge for the benefit of filing that false affidavit and -- to use the colloquial -- trying to beat the government out of the properly payable fund.",
"We think that this is a suitable disincentive when it can multiply and roll up to 40 per cent, plus other penalty provisions -- and also don’t lose sight of the fact of the potential 14 years in jail for a fraudulent affidavit."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Well, I don’t think the 14-year figure might likely be imposed for that particular matter, but I am concerned that the attempts to recover the costs of investigation as well as have a disincentive, should be realistic. I think that the minister feels that this is a reasonable balance and, of course, this other thing that can be reviewed in years to come.",
"As long as he is aware of our concern in the matter I am sure that this too will be something that we will have to learn to grow through to see if this kind of a penalty scale is going to resolve the problem that we all can see and recover the costs that we think are proper."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Ottawa Centre."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"I am aware that in the phrasing here the fine can be far more than the minister has laid out. He gave an example of a deal of $50,000 where the unpaid tax would be $10,000. The actual fine could go as high as $50,000 or $100,000 because there is no -- I am sorry, it can only be $50,000, that’s right. I’m sorry. The fine can be no more than $1,000 more than the unpaid tax, is that correct?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"The unpaid amount."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"The amount of the unpaid tax, plus --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Yes, he owes the unpaid tax and a fine; if he owes $50,000 for unpaid tax, then he could owe a maximum of $51,000, with no further fine."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"I had thought that I had got some new meaning out of the Act, and hadn’t.",
"Mr. Chairman, the point I was about to raise then does seem to be valid and that is that the problems of enforcement which are enshrouded here need to be borne in mind.",
"If the ministry is capable of catching up with most of the people who try to slip around this tax, using various corporate shells and that kind of thing, then the level of fine is fairly adequate. If, on the other hand, experience indicates to people who are in the business of trying to evade taxes that in nine cases out of 10 they can get away and not pay this particular tax -- I am not suggesting that 90 per cent of the tax accruing to the ministry will then be evaded, but I am suggesting that in that certain part of the market there will be individuals who can see that when they try to evade it, nine times out of 10 they succeed. Then they are faced with a 40 per cent tax on the one hand, but a tax which they can evade nine chances out of 10, so that the effective rate of the tax is only four per cent.",
"I wonder whether that is adequate. I wonder, in other words, whether the upper limit of the fine should not be increased beyond the $1,000, rather than leaving it here right now. The minister must bear in mind that for some people, investing in land in Canada is an alternative to investing in other countries where the economic situations are much different, and therefore the return they are willing to accept is less. The risk of paying that 40 per cent is quite acceptable to them, but the risk of having to pay 80 or 100 per cent of the value of the property might not be."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I don’t know how one can really assess at this stage the efficacy of this section any more accurately than we are endeavouring to assess it now, Mr. Chairman."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"This is because you have no information to work on."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"The nature of this kind of fine was dealt with in McRuer and a number of our other taxing statutes -- as, for example, our Gasoline Tax Act and its penalties. The provisions in that Act for breach of those sections are essentially the same as these. We have not departed significantly from that type of penalty. Now you get a very significant fiscal penalty, like a doubling of the amount of the tax, and also you have the provisions under the Criminal Code for fraudulent false affidavits.",
"I think we’ve got to give this an opportunity to be tested to see how effective it is. If the ministry determines that, for one reason or another, we suspect there are people who are taking that risk -- it’s a risk I can tell members I wouldn’t take and I don’t think anybody in this House would ever consider taking that sort of a risk but perhaps there are people in this world who would -- if we find there are people who we suspect are taking that risk maybe we will have to take another look at this section."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"There are those who seek careers even stranger than politics."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I sometimes wonder,"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The member for Riverdale."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"I want to ask the minister a question on the change from the three years to the six years. I agree with that. Three years would be quite inadequate to monitor and investigate and find out whether or not a suspicious transfer was one where there had been a false affidavit. I approve of that change.",
"I’m curious about the accuracy -- or whether there is a better way of stating “of the time when the matter of the information arose.” It appears to me whenever there is one of these limitation periods we should be very accurate about the point in time at which that arises. I don’t claim to know exactly what the time is. I assume that what the minister is saying is that the time when the matter of the information arose would be the time when the conveyance accompanied by the affidavit was tendered for registration, and that that would cover most of the cases. But then there are, of course, the circumstances in which a person need not tender an affidavit but can satisfy the minister.",
"The minister can issue his certificate in lieu of the affidavit so presumably at that point in time you would be talking about an affidavit which was part of the evidence by which the minister was satisfied that he could receive payment of the tax directly and would issue a certificate so that the document tendered for registration would not be accompanied by the required affidavits. I’m speaking particularly about the affidavit with respect to the value of the consideration. The information would be in the minister’s office and not in the registry office.",
"As I say, I don’t claim to know but I do think that the wording “when the matter of information arose” is, shall I say, somewhat less than precise about what the point in time is."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"The difficulty in drafting this kind of legislation is to try to catch all these various areas and the member for Riverdale has touched on two of them. The normal one would be the registration of the document with the affidavit. The other one is, as he has said, when suitable information is provided to the ministry to satisfy the minister and he acts on the basis of affidavit evidence or other material provided to confirm that, for example, the transaction had been commenced via returns of a contract executed before April 10. That might be in terms of, say, a copy of correspondence between solicitors acting for the parties; possibly a preliminary requisition on title, indicating and substantiating the contention that the transaction had been under way before the announcement on Tuesday, April 9. Hence the rather general nature of that clause.",
"Other than that, I don’t think we are going to have too much difficulty in determining when that six-year period will begin because there will be evidence in the minister’s office. Possibly the date upon which he issues the certificate or the date of registration of the deed, I would suppose, would be 999 out of 1,000 of the instances. I would hope there wouldn’t be all that number to come to the minister. In any event, those would be the triggering dates that I would expect for the commencement of the six-year period."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"I agree with what the minister says. The only reason I raise it is that perhaps, as you do follow this bill, it may be that when you are considering further amendments -- as you undoubtedly will for the next session of Parliament -- of some kind to deal with this Act you give consideration to spelling out precisely those two times. That is, the time when the conveyance ac- companied by the affidavit is tendered for registration as the one time and the second time being the point in time and the date on which the minister issues his certificate if the taxpayer chooses to follow that particular route."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I recognize the merit in the observation, Mr. Chairman.",
"Motion agreed to.",
"Section 7, as amended, agreed to.",
"On section 8:"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"On section 8 --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The member for Riverdale."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Sorry, did the member for Grey-Bruce want to comment?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. E. Sargent (Grey-Bruce)",
"text": [
"I would like to speak for a moment, if I may, Mr. Chairman."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The member for Grey-Bruce."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"Somewhere along the line, Mr. Chairman, you will rule me out of order on this, too, but insofar as this whole Act is concerned, it is a version of the reciprocal land tax, which many jurisdictions in Europe have been using for years. I would like to ask the minister why the revenues from these assessments go to the province and not to the municipality concerned? After all, the municipality for years has been carrying this land on its rolls almost tax-free and now, in a boom time, when there is speculation involved, in walks the government and takes the cream off the deal when the money should be going to the municipality.",
"Does the minister see the logic of this? Why should the province take this money and not give it back to the municipality?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Well, as the hon. member --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"Has the minister heard of the reciprocal land tax?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"If the hon. member will resume his seat, I’ll rise."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"Okay."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"One at a time around this place, you know.",
"No, I have not heard of a reciprocal land tax. Secondly, in the recovery under any taxing statute, the moneys do go into the general revenues. We have our grant structure to the municipalities. In fact, the Treasurer (Mr. White) indicated in his budget statement that moneys recovered from the speculation tax -- and it may also be that he indicated that some percentage of the moneys recovered under the Land Transfer Tax Act too -- would be returned to the municipalities in some proportion. I cannot say with assurance, however, that I believe him to have intended to refer the land transfer tax revenues as well. I think he was speaking only with respect to the land speculation tax when he indicated that a half of those additional revenues would go back to the municipalities in which they appeared to have arisen.",
"Again, Mr. Chairman, I don’t mind answering this question, but it is scarcely appropriate to section 8 of the Act."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Sargent",
"text": [
"We are talking about the assessment, Mr. Chairman, and I just want to leave this point with the minister. All over Ontario, not only in Toronto, we are riding the crest of a wave in development, and along comes the province and takes the big revenue, $10 million or $15 million, that rightfully should go to the municipalities."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Well, that is a matter of opinion. The whole point of this is to take the pressure off the investment dollars that are driving up the price of real estate at present. We’d be happy as the mischief if not one cent was realized from the non-resident tax."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The member for Riverdale."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Perhaps the chairman will allow me a minor moment of leeway in the bill.",
"There is the curious situation regarding the payment of tax under this Land Transfer Tax Act -- and I am speaking to section 8, because this is where the circumstances may arise -- where the minister may authorize the Treasurer to refund tax which has been found to have not been payable. There is a procedure for that refund and a number of other provisions with respect to this question of joint tenancy, but I am dealing now with section 8(1).",
"There is a curious provision in the Land Speculation Tax Act which imposes an identical tax in certain circumstances related to a winding-up or dissolution of a corporation, first with respect to the sale or transfer in any manner of the beneficial interest in land in a particular corporate situation, and the second one with respect to an amalgamation, merger, consolidation, and so on, where the effect of it is to make control over the use of the designated land by a different person or group of persons.",
"I take it there was some good reason why the minister felt he had to put those provisions in the Land Speculation Tax Act and not in this Act, and my question is whether or not there are provisions of the Land Transfer Tax Act which should be made applicable to the equivalent tax being levied in those special circumstances under subsection (2) of section 2 of the Land Speculation Tax Act."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I regret to say that I have not followed the argument advanced by the member for Riverdale. He is directing his attention to section 8, subsection (1), which deals with a refund of tax that may have been paid under duress or in some other circumstances. It may have been paid voluntarily, thinking it was properly payable, and then if it is subsequently determined it wasn’t, therein lies the authority for me to request the Treasurer to repay that overpayment of taxes. Now what was the point he was raising?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"I take it that when you have imposed what is in substance a land transfer tax as well in certain limited circumstances under the Land Speculation Tax Act, is there -- I haven’t had a chance to study the Land Speculation Tax Act in detail -- an equivalent provision to this provision of subsection (1) of section 8 to permit a refund of that tax? Obviously the minister felt that you could not put the provisions of subsection (2) of section 2 of the Land Speculation Tax Act in the Land Transfer Tax Act. I want to make sure because it appears to be, regardless of the method used, the identical tax that is being imposed but in specifically different circumstances. Is there any necessity to incorporate provisions of this Act, such as subsection (1) of section 8, in the provisions of the Land Speculation Tax Act, so that persons who have to pay that additional tax, imposed by subsection (2) of section 2 of the Land Speculation Tax Act, will have the benefit, or be subject to the obligations imposed by the general sections of the Land Transfer Tax Act? I don’t know whether that has made it any clearer or not."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Yes, it has, and thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, through you to the member for Riverdale. Yes, obviously -- and he understands the point -- we cannot provide for mergers and amalgamations and that kind of problem of non-resident Canadian corporations, let’s say, to avoid the land transfer tax otherwise payable in this Act. We have incorporated it into the Land Speculation Tax Act as he has indicated, and there are provisions in the Land Speculation Tax Act for redress in similar circumstances."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Thank you. On subsection (2), I can understand the reason for subsection (2), and I can understand the methods used in items (a) and (b) for carrying it out. I am curious about the reservation:",
"“But no refund shall be made if the land is held in joint tenancy by the non-resident person and the persons who are not non-resident persons, or if the minister is of the opinion that the land conveyed to persons who are not non-resident persons cannot readily be distinguished from the land conveyed to non-resident persons.”",
"It seems to me that it would be quite unfair, where land is held in joint tenancy, to impose the full amount of the tax and not take into account the joint tenancy relationship even though, at some specific point in time in the future, if the Ontario resident dies, or the non non-resident person dies, or if it is a corporation it is dissolved or wound up, at that point in time the tax on the other half might become payable if it were vested in the non-resident joint tenant, and it seems to me to be quite unfair to impose such a heavy tax where only half the tax should be imposed."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, we have wrestled with this problem. One thing is that nothing is triggered in the registry office by the death of a joint tenant. In the case of an individual, all that would have to be done would be the filing of a certificate of death and the appropriate succession duty consent, if required. That would make the title marketable in the hands of the surviving joint tenant.",
"Furthermore, if one is going to try to apportion the interests, as one can do in the case of a tenancy in common, as between joint tenants who have inherently the right of survivorship, then one has to look at the actuarial tables to determine the life expectancy of the two joint tenants, if they both happen to be individuals, and which one is likely to survive the other. So, for the purposes of this taxing statute, we felt it preferable to not provide for any apportionment where they take title as joint tenants.",
"I might give the illustration, for example, of a conveyance to an elderly person here in Ontario in joint tenancy with, let us say, a younger daughter who is a non-resident. Under those circumstances, how are you going to determine the apportioned interests of those two, with the life expectancy of the mother being probably, and at least actuarily, a good deal shorter than the life expectancy of the non-resident daughter, who would take the title by the fact of survivorship and without any triggering effect of which we would have notice. I therefore have this exception in here.",
"It will be interesting, over the next few months, to probably deal with some actual cases along this line and to see if it’s going to be possible to work out some kind of rule that might be used to apportion the interests. But it seems like a difficult task to undertake at this point at any rate."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"I would like the help of my colleague, the member for Kitchener, because I don’t feel that I am particularly expert in this. As I understand it, two corporations can hold land as joint tenants and not as tenants in common, or they can hold it in tenancy in common; either one."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Yes, no problem."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"No problem about it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I recognize that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Yes, you can have tenancy in common."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Two corporations can do it as well as two persons. It just seems to me that what you are saying is that a resident person, who happens to be a joint tenant with a non-resident person, be he an individual or a corporate body of some form, or a partnership or joint venture of some kind, that you are going to penalize -- and I use the word advisedly -- the Ontario resident or the Canadian person. You are going to penalize him by requiring him to pay double the tax that he would otherwise have to pay. In other words, he is going to have to pay the 19.4 per cent of the tax simply because your ministry hasn’t been able to devise the methods by which to specify it, detail it or spell it out in order to establish those percentages."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"I can see the point, Mr. Chairman, which the member for Riverdale is bringing forward. It also seems to me that there is the possibility of a certain strain arising where an Ontario corporation and a foreign corporation hold lands in joint tenancy, because the corporations obviously have the right of perpetuity, and if the Ontario corporation has all Ontario citizens as directors, it of course fits in quite nicely to the plan of ownership of Ontario property by Ontario corporations. It would only be in the event of the dissolution of the Ontario corporation that this whole matter would fall in, and that the tax situation would become a particular thorny one. I am wondering what the minister can tell us about the blocking of that possible loophole of joint corporate tenancy, as it were."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Well, we have obviously plugged it by ruling it out. That’s exactly the point. Obviously there is no life expectancy table one can look to when he is talking about a couple of corporations holding title in joint tenancy. They will survive until they are put into bankruptcy, one or other of them, or unless they are voluntarily wound up and their assets distributed. With the windup of one corporation then in a joint tenancy, the asset would flow to the other. On the final dissolution and surrender of the charter of the first company, the surviving company would take all. Consequently, it’s perfectly clear that we cannot allow a joint tenancy arrangement.",
"If you set up a tenancy in common, then of course the interests are defined and can be ascertained. The Ontario resident who takes a portion of a title, together with -- let’s use that term -- a non-resident can protect himself or herself by simply spelling out the interest and thereupon only paying tax on that interest at the lesser rate of three-tenths of one per cent or six-tenths as the case may be."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Then with regard to the tax, if there was the situation of, let’s say, a 60-40 tenancy in common and this was particularly spelled out, the burden would obviously then shift to the foreign corporation to sort out its own problem in its own proportionate requirement."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Shall section 8 then stand as part of the bill?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"All I want to say is I recognize the problems. I just hope that the ministry will immediately direct their minds toward solving that problem. It is fundamentally unfair in a circumstance such as this to tax a Canadian person owning land in the Province of Ontario at the rate of 20 per cent, instead of at the rate of one-third of one per cent or one-sixth of one per cent, simply because the ministry can’t spell out the methods by which to cover the question."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I don’t think it is a matter of not being able to spell them out. It’s a matter of plugging loopholes that would otherwise be obvious. The member for Kitchener pointed out himself that that is a loophole which we’ve plugged. Otherwise it would be just a delightful device in order to enable a non-resident corporation to acquire land here in Ontario without having to pay the non-resident tax. It would be a very cheap way to do it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"I really think that you can find a method to spell it out without penalizing the Ontario resident because I think that the minister and his colleagues have said that they don’t want to impede the flow of capital. It may very well be if the validity of the argument put by this party and by the Liberal Party is correct, that in fact this will not be a disincentive but will become a cost of doing business. It may very well be that a foreign person, individual, corporation, or partnership will enter into joint tenancy with somebody in the Province of Ontario simply on the basis of carrying out a legitimate project and then find themselves stuck with the full amount of the tax. You can posit an open and above- board 50 per cent partnership joint venture arrangement and you are penalizing him."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I can’t imagine two corporations setting out together in joint tenancy on that kind of basis. They might very well go into it in partnership but they would be tenants in common on that basis, not joint tenants."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"They can make provision for being joint tenants if they so want to."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Maybe, and thereby penalize themselves."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Pardon?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"They will pay the full tax in that case."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"That’s right. But I’m also pointing out to you again, and the member for Kitchener may be much more well versed in it than I am, that I really don’t understand why you singled out the joint tenancy and didn’t include the tenancy in common in the same kind of an arrangement. It’s equally difficult."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"No, it is not equally difficult. In the case of the tenancy in common you can identify the respective interests of the parties. In the case of the joint tenants, winner takes all, survivor takes all. So, consequently, you cannot identify the respective interests of the parties who take in joint tenancy. I think lawyers, if they were to advise two corporate clients to get together on a joint tenancy basis would be out of their respective minds, because they wouldn’t do it that way. They would have a joint venture, but that does not mean joint tenancy, or they would have a partnership agreement of some sort. What the member for Riverdale is raising, I suggest with all respect, is a vacuous argument."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. E. Stokes (Thunder Bay)",
"text": [
"Never."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"In fact, this is a loophole we are plugging, not something that we are creating. This is just one of those avenues which we’ve envisaged, and I believe we’ve satisfactorily closed it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I just --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"But the reason we refer to joint tenancy is because you cannot identify the respective interests."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I just want to say that with the help of the member for Kitchener, I think in the ecumenical spirit of the debate we could characterize my argument as vacuous. I very seldom use that term in reference to my arguments, or would agree to it, but I think in this case it was an accurate statement."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I might say, Mr. Chairman, I very infrequently refer to arguments of the hon. member for Riverdale as vacuous."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"I’m sure, Mr. Chairman, that the minister will agree that the approach of the possibility of two corporations holding in joint tenancy would have been a great idea, if it hadn’t been otherwise stopped."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Thank you very much.",
"Section 8 agreed to.",
"On section 9:"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"On section 9 the minister has an amendment to subsection (1).",
"Hon. Mr. Meen moves that clause (c) of subsection (1) of section 9 of the bill be amended by striking out “may be required” in the fifth line."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Shall this motion carry?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I wanted to just speak to the section, not necessarily to that amendment. Would it not be wise for the minister to consider, at some point, rather than have this blanket authority to enter upon people’s premises and take their business records, and carry away property and so on, to make a provision in here that the minister or the person authorized by him to make the entry and to do the things listed in all of these clauses should be required to get a warrant from a county or district court judge before exercising this very drastic right of entry and search and seizure?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I don’t know -- and I don’t suppose anybody else does at this moment -- just what kind of procedure it might be necessary for our auditors and investigators to follow. Checking this, it might not be practical at all times to get an order before seizing the necessary documents in order to enforce this legislation.",
"I might observe that it’s the same as in our other taxing statutes --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"I realize that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"-- and I think if we did this -- and I’ll take a look at it all -- it would be in the overall picture of a review of the procedures in all my revenue statutes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"And that’s precisely why I raised it in the general way that I did. I really think that the revenue can be very well protected, and the investigations carried out, by a provision which requires a reference either to a county court judge, a Supreme Court judge or to a provincial court judge, for a warrant to enter. Then you could perhaps spell out an emergency situation where you could move in and deal, and the person whose premises were entered, whose records were searched, whose documents were seized, might have 48 hours to go and dispute the validity of the seizure -- some such procedure. But I know if my colleague the hon. member for Downsview (Mr. Singer) were here, he would certainly share with me that concern about this kind of arbitrary entry, seizure and search provision in these taxing statutes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Ottawa Centre."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Yes, Mr. Chairman. Subsection (5) -- I presume we’re on the section as a whole, as well as the amendment."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"If it has nothing to do with this, we could carry this and then go to subsection 5.",
"Motion agreed to."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Now, the hon. member for Ottawa Centre."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"On subsection (5), Mr. Chairman. The penalty for obstruction is $25 for each day in which the obstruction continues, or a total of about $9,000 a year. Now, I presume that there are probably powers elsewhere that would permit the minister to seek an injunction against any person who continued to obstruct inspection of records. Does this come from other taxing statutes or --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Yes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"It does, eh?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"The answer is yes, Mr. Chairman, it does."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Would the ministry then use an injunction in the case of a large apparent evasion of tax in which obstruction was occurring? Because the penalty itself is not sufficient."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I don’t think the remedy of injunction would be appropriate in this instance, Mr. Chairman, but I am sure there are other provisions available to the ministry for the obtaining of necessary documentation.",
"Section 9 agreed to."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Any comments, questions, or amendments on any section up to and including section 14? Nothing up to section 14, inclusive.",
"Sections 10 to 14, inclusive, agreed to.",
"On section 15:"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The minister has an amendment to section 15.",
"Hon. Mr. Meen moves that subsection (1) of section 15 of the bill be amended by adding at the end thereof “but no interest is payable for any period of time prior to the day upon which this Act receives royal assent.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Shall this motion carry?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"I have one problem on this."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The member for Ottawa Centre."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"The subsequent section 16 provides for deferral of remission and the minister has also made reference to the possibility of the non-resident posting security in order to clear a lien under the short-term provisions of the Act. There is reference elsewhere to posting a security once the Act’s given full force. Does the interest on unpaid tax apply where the tax is deferred or remitted and then subsequently becomes due, or where security has been posted?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"The terms of section 16 are broad enough to permit me to defer the tax without interest or with interest or on what other terms the ministry may see fit, Mr. Chairman. But we’re not on section 16 yet. I think we should direct our interest to section 15."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"The only question I was going to ask with reference to that particular point, following the comments of the member for Ottawa Centre, is that any security which you might require could be double the amount of a possible tax liability anyway. This wouldn’t necessarily have to be of particular concern to you, as I would understand it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Yes, I would agree with that.",
"Motion agreed to."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The member for Riverdale has a further comment on section 15."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"I just have this minor comment. Perhaps the minister’s advisers would look at it and see whether it makes sense. It provides for a variation of the nine per cent rate by regulation. In looking at the regulatory power in section 18 there is no provision specifically related to varying such a rate and I rather object to seeing the variation of a penalty rate such as that being left to the general clause respecting “Any manner necessary or advisable to carry out effectively the intent and purpose of the Act.”",
"I suggest that between now and the time we get to 18, perhaps the minister’s advisers would look to see whether or not we shouldn’t add another subsection in section 18, subsection (2), to provide for the variation of that nine per cent rate."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, one of the difficulties we face is that whenever you are introducing new legislation it comes into effect at the moment of proclamation. Then you have to have an interest rate everybody knows about. We think nine per cent is a practical figure right now."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"I’m not worried about the rate. I’m simply worried about the provision which says that at some point in time you may change the rate and there is no provision in the regulatory provisions specifically authorizing the regulation to be made."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I think we might take a look at section 18 when we get to it. I had a notion that it was broad enough to authorize the Lieutenant Governor. If it says “At such other rate as may be prescribed by the Lieutenant Governor in Council” by regulation, I think the provisions of 18 would be broad enough to cover it."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"It may well be. I simply ask for advice and say that maybe we should have a specific heading."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"In any event, we can take a look at that. As a matter of fact, perhaps we could put together an amendment that would cover a variation on this. As I look at this now, I don’t like for example, to have to look at subsection (g) of 18(2)."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"That is precisely my point."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"That’s not really intended to cover an increase in interest rates. Perhaps my legal counsel, in conjunction with the legislative counsel can put together an amendment that would be suitable."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Will that be to section 15?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I think it would be a subclause in 18, Mr. Chairman.",
"Section 15, as amended, agreed to.",
"On section 16:"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The minister has an amendment to section 16, subsection (2)."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Yes. Although I earlier indicated that I thought subsection (1) of section 16 was not broad enough to accomplish what we anticipated might be necessary for, for example, liens and postponement of liens and the like, it would now appear it is broad enough to cover that. I have a subsection (4) which I would propose to be added to section 16. I will read my motion, Mr. Chairman."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Is this an amendment?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Yes, it does entail a minor amendment to subsection (2) as well.",
"Hon. Mr. Meen moves that subsection (2) of section 16 be amended by inserting after subsection (1) in the first line “or a rebate under subsection (4)” and that the said section 16 be further amended by adding thereto the following subsection (4):",
"“Where tax is paid under subsection (2) of section 2 as the result of a tender for registration of a final order of foreclosure under a mortgage or charge affecting land and where the mortgagee or chargee who acquires the beneficial interest in the land by virtue of the final order of foreclosure sells within three years after the date on which the final order of foreclosure was given, all or any part of the land so acquired, to a person who is not a non-resident person, the minister may, subject to subsection (2), rebate to the mortgagee or chargee the tax that was paid on the tender for registration of the final order of foreclosure and that is, in the opinion of the minister, referable to the value of the consideration for the final order of foreclosure attributable to the portion of the land sold. In addition to the amount of the rebate, the minister may authorize payment to the mortgagee or chargee to whom the rebate is made of interest on the amount rebated at the rate of 4 per cent per annum or such other rate as may be prescribed by the Lieutenant Governor in Council by regulation.",
"“Motion agreed to.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The member for Ottawa Centre."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"I would like to raise some very serious questions about the section as a whole, Mr. Chairman. The government has stated that it wishes to deter speculative capital coming into the Ontario real estate market from abroad. We have commented at some length and had a discussion about loopholes and various means by which that capital could still come in. It seems clear that the position of the minister and presumably of his government is that foreign real estate capital can come in under certain forms but not under others.",
"In the absence of any clear understanding of the market or any clear facts about the market, we have had no indication as to how much money is coming and what form it is coming in. The ministry is flying in the dark. But the ministry’s position seems to be that it doesn’t really want to deter this money coming in. It is only the form by which it has been coming in that bothers the government. I don’t understand that position but I am trying to sum up the position that you, Mr. Minister have taken.",
"This section permits the foreign capital to come into the real estate market and not to pay the penalty at all under certain conditions. Could the minister explain in some detail the kinds of conditions that he might lay down in order to permit evasion or deferral or omission of the tax under this section."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Of course, Mr. Chairman, I have already mentioned that we are not about to try to close off, freeze out or however you want to describe it, mortgage financing in our construction industry here in Ontario. Were we to have a section that precluded a non-resident mortgagee from fore- closing on security on a loan made for the bona fide purposes of, let’s say, the construction of a dwelling, we do not want to inhibit them from making that loan if they have to speculate on having, at some stage or other on a foreclosure -- statistically, maybe, one in 1,000 or something -- to pay the 20 per cent land transfer tax, with respect to that foreclosure. So the principle is we are quite happy to see money come in --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"On a point of order, Mr. Chairman."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"-- for security loans."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Section 16(4) has been passed. We accepted that and I understand that point being made by the minister about foreign mortgage money. It is section 16(1), which permits remission or deferral of the tax to foreigners when they are buying land for development that we are concerned about."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I am sorry. My apologies. Let’s say we wanted to see a certain kind of industry locate in a depressed area of Ontario and that a certain non-resident corporation came to us and said, “It is a balance of economics whether we acquire the land here in Ontario or there is some other jurisdiction. If we locate here, we will bring X number of jobs and millions of dollars of assessment to the economy.”",
"It would then be possible for the ministry to weigh these and to determine whether it was in, the best interests of the people of Ontario to forgo the non-resident tax in that circumstance in order to have that business located in Ontario. I would suggest we have already made it quite clear that we do not want to discourage industry from locating here in preference to some other part of North America if it can be shown to our satisfaction that it is in the interests of the people of Ontario to do so. We would be very unwise indeed to settle for a paltry 20 per cent if it were a matter of a new industry in the right place at the right time creating more jobs for our people."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Okay, Mr. Chairman. What about an industry which wishes to settle in the “golden horseshoe” or in Oakville or in the Toronto area? Would the tax be remitted in that particular case if the industry was non-resident or was foreign-controlled? Secondly, what about a foreign development firm which wished to acquire land in Ontario for commercial development or for residential development?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"One cannot answer the first question in specifics. It might be that we wouldn’t want a particular industry in the “golden horseshoe.” It might be that on the other hand we would quite happily accept some other industry if the nature of its operations, the jobs it provided and all the rest were in keeping with the goals and objectives of the government and of the province. So one would have to look at every one of these on its merits and determine whether we would or would not welcome them on that basis.",
"The other one was with respect to building corporations, and, of course, the provision is, if the non-resident corporation purchases the land, develops it or resells to residents then there again would be a waiver of the tax. If they were prepared to come in and say, “Look, we are going to develop this 1,000 acres and put 5,000 homes in here. We don’t want to have the carrying cost of the 20 per cent even if you tell us you will give it back to us later on,” then as I said in the House this is one of the circumstances under which we would say, “Okay, we will take a lien for your unpaid tax, but if you build and resell and in the course of the construction, for that matter, if mortgage loans are advanced, we will postpone our lien in favour of the bona fide mortgage loans made by companies to builders who are constructing homes.”",
"If, in due course, the property is sold to non non-residents, to quote the hon. member for Riverdale, then the tax would be waived and the lien would be cleared from the title once and for all. That is the kind of discretion that lies under section 16(1). As I mentioned earlier, I had some doubts as to whether the words in the middle of that paragraph were broad enough, but my counsel advised me that they are."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"This is the extraordinary kind of thing, the minister gives a number of examples but effectively at the end he says that a foreign firm will be able to operate in the development industry in Ontario on the same terms and conditions as a domestic firm."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Mean",
"text": [
"Why not? Would you cut off the construction industry and deny our people hundreds of thousands of homes simply because it was a foreign corporation that was building those homes for our people?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"I just wonder whether this thing can’t be handled domestically. The labour is domestic; the mortgage money is domestic; the building materials are basically domestic. Now, what exactly is it that is contributed from abroad, and how much is it that is contributed from abroad by foreign entrepreneurs coming in, and how do you balance that against the fact that they are in Canada, in Ontario, hotting up the market for land and the minister is going to allow them to hot it up?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"They are only hotting up the market for land because there is a demand for housing. They are going out and they are acquiring land into inventory. They are developing it. They are putting it on the market as serviced lots. In some cases they are building homes on it. In any case, they are providing our people with the housing accommodation they need, and this element of the building construction market is not inconsequential. That is, when I say this element I mean the non-resident as defined by our Act. The non-resident building corporations and land development corporations operating in Ontario are a significant segment of the community."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"There is incredible faith in the power of the corporation, then, Mr. Chairman. It is Canadian workers who are providing the housing. It is Canadian loggers and people producing building material that are providing the materials. In large measure it is Canadian savers who are providing the mortgage funds with which these properties are being built. It is not foreigners. The foreigners come in and simply put it all together. I would like to ask how many years of inventory does the minister consider that he will permit in residential and commercial development, how many years of land inventory will be permit before applying the tax?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"It would be necessary to assess this picture as we get a little further into it, Mr. Chairman. But I would venture to say that a 10-year inventory would not be an unrealistically long period of time. I understand that some companies, with their progression through the various stages, actually wind up with inventories over longer periods of time. I am told that to bring raw land to finished dwellings, up to now has been more than five years, for example. So if you are progressing through that stage you might have an inventory ranging between five and 10 years, and a fairly realistic turn-around of land from raw farmland to finished occupiable dwellings."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"It seems to me, Mr. Chairman, that there has certainly been pressure -- which I gather the minister is going to respond to on the other tax, the land speculation tax -- to permit large developers to spin off a certain amount of their land to smaller housebuilders and developers who don’t carry a substantial land inventory. If that right is given to domestic or Canadian development firms, like Cadillac and Meridian, then it would seem to me that there will be equal pressure and justifiable pressure, according to the lights of the government, to give the same permission where there is a foreign development firm which has got a land inventory of nine or 10 years’ worth of land.",
"After all, the Minister of Housing (Mr. Handleman) who sits next to this minister has got an interest in getting that land to market and in trying to get more lots on to the market and therefore he will be seeking to get some of it out of the inventory of firms, whether they are domestic or foreign-controlled, and into production.",
"Under this particular clause the foreign firm would thereby be unable to sell off its land to other development firms -- if the changes that I’m suggesting will come do come -- and evade the 20 per cent tax, and at that point it is effectively benefiting from speculative gains in land prices and it’s doing what the bill originally set out to avoid."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Shall section 16, as amended, then stand as part of the bill?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I’ve got a couple of comments.",
"I think that the point which my colleague, the member for Ottawa Centre, has raised is a fundamental point going to the whole difference between the attitude of this party and the government’s attitude. This is an area where I don’t think there are any complete answers at the present time. There is a great deal of validity in what my colleague, the member for Ottawa Centre, has said.",
"I wanted to deal with one matter which comes up under subsection 1 of section 16. Concerning these conditions which are to be or can be imposed by the minister, as conditions with respect to the deferment or remittance of the tax if the taxes happen to be paid. Are these the conditions that are going to be spelled out in regulations having regard to section 18(c), which says the power of the Lieutenant Governor in Council to make regulations “providing for the refund of tax in whole or in part owing to special circumstances, and prescribing the terms and conditions under which such refund may be made ... ”?",
"So my question specifically is, is it the intention for the minister to make conditions within the terminology of subsection (1) of 16 that will not be known to the public? Or is it his intention to make and impose those conditions, either in specific terms for particular transactions or in general terms if general terms are available, so that the conditions which have been imposed by the minister will be publicly known?",
"I’m inclined to think that, because this is an immense power given to the minister, there should be some clear publication of what the conditions are that are imposed with respect to any particular transaction if you go forward to carry this out. In reading the regulatory power it seems to me that maybe that was where it was intended, but it can’t have been clearly intended because it does not provide for a deferral of the tax. It simply deals with the refund."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, my own personal proclivity is to make this sort of thing public. I would not want this kind of arrangement to be some secret kind of little deal -- some sweetheart arrangement, as might be alleged by hon. members opposite. And in my opinion, although under 16(1) the orders in council would not be done by regulation, and therefore would not, in that legal sense of publication in the Gazette, be public, it would be my expectation that whenever these arrangements were made that they could be publicized so that people would know the exercise of discretion that was accorded to the minister.",
"I agree with the hon. member for Riverdale that, at this stage, where so much of this is not yet capable of precise definition, it’s necessary to give what appears to be pretty extensive power to the minister and to the Lieutenant Governor in Council. I think it would therefore be appropriate if the exercise of it were publicly known."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"That is the kind of language I would like to see in this section, because I am inclined to think that it doesn’t lend itself to spelling out in regulations as set out in section 18. It seems to me that you are probably going to deal with particular situations and you are going to make up your minds at that time.",
"It seems to me, therefore, that the language should read, “The Lieutenant Governor in Council may on the recommendation of the minister, by order in council, defer the payment of the tax or remit the tax paid on such conditions as the use and development of the land or otherwise as are considered advisable and sufficient to ensure the development of the land as proposed and its conveyance to persons who are not non-residents and as set forth in the order in council.”",
"I am not talking about the elegance of the language at the moment. I am talking about the intention that it be done by order in council, that the order in council contain the terms and conditions on the basis of which the deferment or the remittance of the tax has been imposed. I think I may have an opportunity in a minute to sit down and write out my version of that change so that the order in council is then, as I understand it, published in the office of the clerk of the council. It’s available for perusal by the public, not necessarily widely distributed, but at least it is posted up and available."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I wonder, Mr. Chairman, if I could interject that my counsel advises me that the wording of 16(1) accomplishes just what the hon. member for Riverdale is seeking to accomplish. The orders in council are public documents so that this sort of thing accommodating those -- and I can assure him that the reasons for the order would be set out in it -- would therefore be a public document."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Well, I am content, I am content."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"It turns out that we have limitations that we don’t presently see, and I would entertain an amendment at a later time. But I think I would like to get on with this one at the moment."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"I recognize that, but I take it then that what the minister is saying to the House is a commitment on his part that any such approval for remittance or refund or deferment of the tax will be done by order in council and that that order in council will contain the terms and conditions on which that deferment or remission or refund of tax is made."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Let me respond simply by saying that in my limited experience in this I can say, as I understand an order in council of this nature, we would set out the terms and conditions which applied and therefore the reasons for and the conditions and the terms imposed upon the non-residents at the time when the order in council was made."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I have one further question. The minister can correct me -- I may be dreaming, and I don’t have a copy of the Treasurer’s budget statement -- but wasn’t there a five-year period with respect to time within which these conveyances to persons who are not non-residents with which it was to take place?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I believe the Treasurer did mention that in his budget statement. Whether five years is going to be adequate for all purposes, I don’t think I can say. As I mentioned in reply a few minutes ago to the hon. member for Ottawa Centre, the deferral period may or may not be realistic at five years. Some people tell us that that is an unrealistically short period of time. But I think that it was in that context that the hon. Treasurer did mention the five years in his budget statement."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I want to come back to the section now, because there is a clear difference between the government party and our party about this particular section.",
"The minister states that any company which wants to say that it’s going into residential or commercial development would be able to benefit from the exemptions that are put forward in this section. I would gather that this would apply, not only to a company actively engaged in development now, but also to a company that came along and said: “Look, we would like to become engaged in development and therefore we are currently acquiring land to have a seven- or eight-year inventory. The land we are acquiring today is land which is fairly close to being developable and we hope to actually get into the business in two or three years’ time.”",
"That can amount to a very sizeable acreage that a foreign-controlled company could acquire without having put a shovel in the ground. Yet, the ministry would feel compelled, I would suggest, to grant the exemption with the liens while this land inventory was acquired.",
"Subsequently, in three or four years time, if the company then came to the ministry and said: “Look, we’re sorry. We made a mistake;” or “our board has decided we’re going to go into Australia, or some other country instead of Canada;” they would sell out and they would be liable to 20 per cent tax, but it would be a deferred tax and they would have got a free ride for three or four years in a market which recently has been very inflationary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Not necessarily. It might be that not only would the tax be payable but interest at nine or 10 per cent, or whatever per cent was agreed on or was set out in the order in council as appropriate, would then be payable.",
"Furthermore, if he sold it at any markup over his initial cost he would be paying the 50 per cent land speculation tax on top. Thus under those undesirable circumstances where he in effect has defaulted on his undertakings he gets taxed under both the statutes."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"The minister can’t have it both ways. I mean on the one hand they say that the various taxes will put up a substantial deterrent, and on the other hand the estimates, which are admittedly guesstimates, indicate that at least $300 million worth of property will be bought and will be liable to this particular tax.",
"Mr. Cassidy moves that section 16(1) of Bill 26, be deleted and all succeeding sections be renumbered accordingly."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"I don’t propose to put up an alternative at this particular point. I think this clause as it stands is wrong, that it simply permits development companies and foreigners to continue to engage in real estate transactions in Ontario and that therefore it will have no real effect. This is the clear dividing line, because this party says, and I believe the opposition party as well have said, that the recommendations of the select committee should have been followed. The ministry chose otherwise and it will, I suggest, be ineffective."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Mr. Cassidy has moved that section 16 -- is that all of section 16?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"Section 16(1), Mr. Chairman."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Oh yes, I’m sorry. That section 16(1) of Bill 26 be deleted and all succeeding subsections be renumbered accordingly.",
"Shall this motion carry?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Some hon. members",
"text": [
"No."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Those in favour of Mr. Cassidy ‘s motion will please say “aye.”",
"Those opposed will please say “nay.”",
"In my opinion the “nays” have it.",
"I declare the motion lost and the section carried.",
"Section 16, as amended, agreed to.",
"On section 17:"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The member for Riverdale, on which section?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"We just got caught but on a procedural motion."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"It adds zest to the government when it’s me, Mr. Chairman.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Order please. The member for Riverdale on which section?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I’m going to speak on section 17 now, but actually there may be a brief reference to section 16 because I got caught out on that procedural motion that was just passed.",
"I want to make two points. One is that I think the record has got to be very clear and the minister should make a statement very soon, publicly, that the five-year period that the Treasurer referred to in his budget has now disappeared and that the government is not fixing any time limit. If they had to fix one, they would probably fix it at 10 years."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Cassidy",
"text": [
"It’s open season for them."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"He ought to make some kind of a statement about it because most people were of the impression that there was a specific time limit.",
"The second point I want to make, speaking as I am on section 17 but referring to section 16, is that section 16 very clearly is the dangerous section with respect to who is to bear the tax, who it is intended will bear the tax; and a very strong argument on the constitutional question which we discussed some time ago with respect to sections 2 of the bill and sections 4 of the bill and now with section 16, can be buttressed. There it is perfectly clear that it is the non-resident person who is intended to bear the tax and that that’s the purpose. Therefore it is an endeavour to levy either an indirect tax outside the province or a direct tax outside the province. I simply say it is unconstitutional.",
"Will the minister, under section 17, comment about the way in which he is going to avoid collusive predating of documents? By that I don’t mean collusive as between the minister and those who might be tempted to predate documents, but how does he intend to make certain to his satisfaction they don’t monkey around?",
"I would think there may have been a lot of activity in a lot of places on the night the budget was introduced for anybody who happened to know about this. There is a certain leeway with respect to the predating of documents and the filing of them with the minister and so on.",
"I’ve just had a note from our research director, who as the minister knows is knowledgeable in tax matters and who has obviously been in touch with persons who have indicated their concern to her about it. She is told that the ministry may allow very tentative commitments made prior to May 16, such as options, to be exempt from the 20 per cent tax. Perhaps that should be clarified. It would be easy for parties to reduce such tentative agreements to writing with predated letters perhaps."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I suppose there are always going to be people who will risk their professional status or otherwise to recognize a short windfall gain of their own by something like this. We recognize that with the budget being announced between 4 and 4:30 p.m. on April 9, from there until midnight there might be a little scurrying around to get some agreements signed, to get some options executed on that day. We also recognize there may well be some in the days that followed -- after they picked up their morning paper they realized that the time had passed and perhaps they hadn’t gotten around to formalizing the documentation. There may have been those who would back-date something in order to fall within the dates as provided for in the Treasurer’s announcements.",
"But to get down more specifically to the questions raised by the hon. member for Riverdale; if an agreement of purchase and sale is tendered, with affidavit evidence by the witness that it was executed on or before April 9, that, subject to scrutiny, would be acceptable to my ministry and to me. I’m sure the lawyers in the House will recognize that often the case is that there is no affidavit of execution attached to an agreement of purchase and sale, although the form is there. I would say that in circumstances like that where there is correspondence between the solicitors for the parties, and it could be produced to me, that on its face was bona fide, showing that solicitors for the parties had exchanged letters with the purchaser -- let’s say the purchaser’s solicitor requesting a draft deed from the vendor’s solicitor -- and advising him as to the way in which the grantee should be described in the deed, perhaps even submitting a preliminary set of requisitions on title; possibly it could be an exchange of documents where there is an original of a letter from the solicitor for the vendor sending a draft deed and possibly some other documentation at that time -- a copy of a survey and so on -- all of these on their face having occurred before April 9, this kind of evidence would also, in my opinion, satisfy the ministry that these were bona fide transactions entered into before the announcement in the budget.",
"Mr. Chairman, an option, even if not exercised, but executed itself as an option, has in my opinion some validity which I think we would seriously look at. Certainly we would look at it under the Land Speculation Tax Act. I think one might look at it too with respect to the Land Transfer Tax Act.",
"It is this sort of thing that we will have to consider as the weeks move along. I would emphasize here again, as I have been saying on every occasion to these people who do not anticipate closing their deals before May 15, that I suspect the Act will provide for filing of the documents with me before that time. Anyway, I trust that answers the questions by the hon. member for Riverdale."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, if I may say something on a matter, which again is not strictly on section 17, my colleague the member for Windsor West (Mr. Bounsall) has just raised what may be, if it is, and it appears to me to be, correct, a very serious problem with respect to the definition of non-resident. It may be that the advisers of the minister would give consideration to the point in case at the end of the bill, and before it is finally passed we might revert if the point is an important one."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Mean",
"text": [
"Sorry, I missed that. What was the point again?",
"Mr. Renwick: I have not made the point yet. It is a point that my colleague, the member for Windsor West, has made with respect to the definition of a non-resident person.",
"A non-resident person means a person who, if ordinarily resident in Canada -- and we provided a lengthy definition of ordinarily resident -- is neither a Canadian citizen nor an individual who has been lawfully admitted to Canada for permanent residence in Canada. My colleague points out that there are a large number of British subjects in the Province of Ontario who never got around to taking out landed immigrant papers even though technically they may be required to do so and who are not, therefore, Canadian citizens but who have lived here for many years. We wouldn’t want, inadvertently I am certain, if the clause reads as it appears to me to read, to be saying that those persons are not residents of Ontario and are caught by being non-residents.",
"I simply ask the ministry, if the logic of my colleague’s comment is correct, that they consider making an amendment to the bill, if the committee would revert at the appropriate time to that section."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, the definition is very complex and we wrestled, I can assure the members, with that for hours. Hours and hours of time were spent on coming up with what we felt was an appropriate way to tackle the whole of all of those definition sections. I would be reluctant to try to tinker with that now.",
"I am inclined to agree with the sentiment expressed by the member for Riverdale as to such individuals, provided they are lawfully here. I would think that we could probably cover by regulation, by our sub-clause (g) of section 18, to which we may have cause to refer later. I would think there may well be authority to look at that.",
"If the British citizen, though, is residing here in Canada, surely he must have come here legally. Therefore, I would think he would fall under the definition. If there is any difficulty about that we can probably include regulations to clarify it for that purpose."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I am just talking because --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"We did not use the landed immigrant status --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"-- there are people in my riding who have been in Canada for a long, long time. They are not Canadian citizens because they have not made applications to become Canadian citizens; they are British subjects. They have not got around to going through the formality of taking out Canadian citizenship. They have not gone through the formality; and they were not required, as I understand it, to be landed as such at one particular point in time. It would be a shame if inadvertently we found that such persons, if they were to buy a home, would suddenly find themselves subjected to this particular 20 per cent tax."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Ruston (Essex-Kent)",
"text": [
"Would they be resident here for five years?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Shall section 17 stand as part of the bill?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Yes, there’s just one other observation I made earlier that I might clarify. I was in fact referring the Land Transfer Tax Act in the filing of those agreements with the ministry by May 15."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"I understand."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I used the reference to the Speculation Tax Act, I think, incorrectly.",
"Section 17 agreed to.",
"On section 18."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"On section 18, the hon. minister has a couple of amendments."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I have two amendments, Mr. Chairman.",
"Hon. Mr. Meen moves that clause (f) of subsection (2) of section 18 be amended by striking out “or to refund” in the third line and by inserting after section 2 in the fourth line “or to refund such tax or any part thereof to.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"That simply is a clarification of subclause (f) which was kind of hard to understand in its original wording."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"That’s agreeable."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Well is that agreed?",
"Motion agreed to."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"I have another amendment to section 18, Mr. Chairman, and perhaps I would ask one of the attendants to take copies of these to the member for Riverdale and the member for Kitchener, please. This is with respect to subclause (g) and the question of interest.",
"Hon. Mr. Meen moves that subsection (2) of section 18 of the bill be amended by relettering clause (g) as clause (h) and by inserting the following clause (g): “Providing for the payment of interest on a refund or rebate of tax authorized by this Act or the regulations and prescribing the rate of interest and the method by which it is to be calculated”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"In this regard, I would thank the hon. member for Riverdale.",
"Motion agreed to.",
"Section 18, as amended, agreed to."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Are there any further comments, questions or amendments on a later section of the bill? If not, shall the bill as amended be reported?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Renwick",
"text": [
"No Mr. Chairman. Just before the bill is reported, will the minister ask his advisers to look carefully at that question to make certain that inadvertently we haven’t picked up in the taxing net a large number of British subjects who have been resident in this country for a long time but at the time of their arrival were never required to go through a procedure of being lawfully admitted to Canada for the purpose of that definition, in the normal sense of becoming something called a “landed immigrant in Canada”. If necessary would he then bring in an amendment or get a regulation published as quickly as possible under his power so that there will be no confusion about the matter?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, we haven’t used the term “landed immigrant status” in the definition, as the hon. member will be aware, having instead taken the opposite approach to define a non-resident rather than a resident.",
"However, yes, we will take a look at it and if necessary have an appropriate regulation or amendment to the Act.",
"Bill 26, as amended, reported.",
"Hon. Mr. McKeough moves that the committee rise and report.",
"Motion agreed to.",
"The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the committee of the whole House reports one bill with certain amendments and asks leave to sit again.",
"Report agreed to."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Clerk of the House",
"text": [
"The 17th order, House in committee of supply."
]
}
] |
April 25, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-25/hansard-1
|
ESTIMATES, MINISTRY OF ENERGY
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. D. McKeough (Minister of Energy)",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, in presenting these estimates, I would point out that there are three votes -- ministry administration, energy policy and the Ontario Energy Board. I think it’s a little difficult to separate administration from policy, and I would suggest, sir, that you might take votes 1801 and 1802 together. I would further suggest that everything is probably fair game under votes 1801 and 1802 -- gas, oil, uranium, electricity, coal, conservation and relations or lack of relations with other governments. Perhaps some matters of substance that may be before the board could also be discussed under those votes but if we can confine the third vote to what has been before the board and the operation of the board, I think that might make sense."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Does any member wish to speak before we go on to votes 1801 and 1802?",
"The hon. member for Huron."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. Riddell (Huron)",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I welcome the opportunity of making a few general comments on the estimates of the Ministry of Energy. My comments will be general of necessity because we are dealing with a new ministry. While we do have predicted expenditures for 1974-1975, we really have nothing to compare these expenditures to.",
"Mr. Chairman, not quite a year has elapsed since the Ministry of Energy was established by the government, and despite the fact that most members of the opposition felt there existed at that time an unwieldy and unnecessary number of ministries and secretariats, most concurred that there should be a separate ministry to deal with energy matters.",
"Approval was given -- almost unanimously, I would say -- for the formation of a Ministry of Energy. Circumstances at the time awakened us to the fact that energy could no longer be taken for granted. It became apparent that petroleum sources of energy could not last to infinity, and it became obvious that energy was no longer a cheap ingredient of man’s way of life. And so it was necessary to establish policy and exert some control over the use of energy and its source if Canadians, and more particularly Ontarians, were to be assured a continued supply for industrial, private business, pleasure and home purposes. Thus the Ministry of Energy came into being.",
"As I recall the debates of the energy bill and related bills, it was generally surmised and concurred in by many that the member to be appointed to shoulder the responsibilities of this most important ministry would be the hon. member for Chatham-Kent (Mr. McKeough). I believe such concurrence was apparent, because the hon. member for Chatham-Kent had gained some experience in the cabinet before he allowed himself to get involved in a conflict of interest.",
"He was looked upon as a fairly knowledgeable person and, furthermore, he was deemed to be a powerful man in the Conservative caucus. When I was appointed critic of the Energy ministry, I was prepared to accept the alleged qualifications of the minister, but my own personal observations and experiences have led me to nothing more than disillusionment.",
"I have seen very little action on the part of the minister to take a stand in the current developments within the oil industry. He is not prepared to formulate policy. He does not appear to have the courage of his convictions. And he is not prepared to stand on his own two feet.",
"How many questions have been asked of him in the Legislature dealing with energy matters? And how many responsible answers has the minister given to such questions?",
"If the minister didn’t have the federal government to lean on he would fall flat on his face, and in this prostrate position the oil companies would continue to tread right over top of him."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. F. Laughren (Nickel Belt)",
"text": [
"Oh, that’s right!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. D. C. MacDonald (York South)",
"text": [
"Right. He goes to bed with the federal Liberals on the price issue every day."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Riddell",
"text": [
"I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, that if the minister requires guidance, then he might be advised to look to the Nova Scotia government as an example of one which comprehends the meaning of initiative, courage and responsibility.",
"A question by my leader to the minister last Tuesday and the reply by the minister are ample evidence of the fact that this government is reluctant to make the oil companies accountable for their pricing mechanisms. To show how the minister treats this matter so lightly and inconsiderately and irresponsibly, I would like to repeat the exchange of questions and answers pertaining to this critical matter of inflationary prices, as recorded in Hansard from Tuesday’s session.",
"The leader of the official Opposition (Mr. R. F. Nixon) asked the Minister of Energy if he was prepared to recommend to his colleagues, in view of the announced profits of Imperial Oil in the first quarter of 1974 of $92.7 million, twice last year’s profits, that the powers of the Energy Board be expanded as was suggested by the members of the opposition when the energy board was established with new powers a year ago, to extend their controls over prices to domestic use of fuel.",
"The first reply of the minister was: “I don’t specifically recall the suggestion made by the Leader of the Opposition”. He went on to say, Mr. Speaker:",
"“It occurs to me that great gathering in a tele- phone booth in Sudbury this weekend might re- commend that to their federal party and they will do a little better job.”",
"Mr. Chairman, through you to the minister, when are you going to stop using the federal government as a crutch? When are you going to get serious and realize that higher fuel prices to industry can only result in higher food and other commodity prices to the consumer, which simply enlarges the vicious inflationary circle?",
"Would the minister not agree that the profit shown by Imperial Oil in the first quarter of this year is totally unacceptable? Would the minister not be inclined to think that the indication by Shell Oil that it will forego a 2 1/2 cent additional increase in the price of oil is an admission of guilt in itself, and that certainly it would appear in the light of this consideration that the people of Ontario are facing a ripoff that has probably never been so evident in the history of time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"They are stealing our language as well as our policies these days."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Riddell",
"text": [
"Mr. Chairman, I feel compelled to continue the exchange of questions and answers pertaining to this matter of oil pricing as I simply cannot comprehend the attitude of insincerity and the complete lack of interest on the part of the minister."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Laughren",
"text": [
"He would make a good Liberal."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Riddell",
"text": [
"The Leader of the Opposition asked a supplementary question:",
"“Since the minister supervises the energy board of the Province of Ontario which does have price control or price recommendation powers, why would he not assume that the same powers can be used at the provincial level the way they are, for example, in the government in the province of Nova Scotia?”",
"The minister’s answer, Mr. Chairman, was as follows:",
"“Mr. Speaker, my reading of the Act does not indicate to me that those powers presently exist in the Energy Board Act.”",
"Mr. Nixon went on to say: “Surely the minister would agree that an amendment would give those powers?” And the Minister of Energy’s reply, Mr. Chairman: “I agree completely with the opposition that an amendment would give those powers.”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"Boy, that was brilliant. Very subtle."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Riddell",
"text": [
"Then Mr. Lewis asked a supplementary:",
"“Is the minister in fact reviewing, as has been reported, the possibility of imposing a price level in the Province of Ontario for costs for gasoline and home fuel oil charged by the major oil companies?”",
"The Minister of Energy’s reply:",
"“I have been preoccupied lately and the ministry has been preoccupied, with the problems associated with wind energy. But when we get ourselves off that subject, we will turn to the subject which has been suggested by the leader of the New Democratic Party.”",
"Mr. Lewis went on to say: “I am not going to be diverted too easily -- ”"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J.E. Stokes (Thunder Bay)",
"text": [
"Have you been to Sherbrooke, Quebec? Have you been out to Sherbrooke yet?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Riddell",
"text": [
"I continue:",
"“Are all of the minister’s speeches, while he trumpets around the countryside clobbering the oil companies, dealing in the direction of introducing legislation in the House which will give his ministry the right to set or roll back prices in the area of gasoline and home fuel oil as has been suggested in other jurisdictions; and which he has indicated publicly he is now interested in?”",
"The Minister of Energy’s reply: “These are matters which are under consideration.”",
"And then another supplementary question was asked, Mr. Chairman:",
"“Now that Shell Oil has indicated their willingness to forego the 2 1/2 cent unnecessary increase for non-existent costs, can the minister indicate whether that is likely to be a pattern subscribed to by the other oil companies? Is he going to take any initiative to see that it is the pattern accepted?”",
"The reply:",
"“The matter of the Shell Oil increase or non- increase or the industry increase or non-increase is being dealt with, as the member is well aware, by the government of Canada through the ministry of the department of Energy, Mines and Resources, and through the National Energy Board; and that is a matter for their consideration. I congratulate Shell Oil for the position which they have taken that this increase is perhaps not necessary, in their view, at this moment in time. But whether the rest of the industry will follow suit, or whether the government of Canada will determine that an increase is necessary or not, is something for the government of Canada to decide at this moment. I would suggest that the member get on that pipeline, through his leader to the federal leader, and sort that little matter away.”",
"The member for York South asked a further supplementary:"
]
},
{
"speaker": "“Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"If perchance the federal government in Ottawa isn’t persuaded to accept its responsibilities, will the minister accept his, in his constitutional jurisdiction, of control of retail prices in the Province of Ontario through the Ontario Energy Board to make certain that that unnecessary increase doesn’t take place here?”",
"The Minister of Energy’s reply was:",
"“My leader and this government have made it clear for over a year that when the government of Canada is prepared to come to grips with the problem of wage and price controls, then this government will co-operate to the fullest.”",
"Mr. Minister, all I can say is: When are you going to take your responsibilities seriously? It is obvious by this exchange of questions and answers that you are making a joke out of this whole energy situation, which in my way of thinking is approaching that of being critical.",
"Is there any reason in your better judgement that the Energy Board shouldn’t be given powers to review and recommend prices for oil to the Legislature, similar to the situation for hydro and natural gas? Is there any reason that the oil companies should not be accountable to the consumers through the Energy Board and the government for their pricing activities? It only stands to reason that Ontario should have some say in the matter, for of the Canadian consumption of oil produced in Western Canada, Ontario accounts for about one-half.",
"Mr. Chairman, I read with interest the speeches that the Minister of Energy makes throughout Canada and I can only come to one conclusion. The minister’s theory seems to be that when you are in Rome you do as the Romans do. When you are in Alberta you say what the Albertans like to hear. When you are in Ontario you say what the Ontarians like to hear. To escape alienation you either sit on the fence and do nothing or pass the buck in the hope that someone will bail you out. I guess this is what politics is all about if the Ontario government, and more particularly the Minister of Energy, is any example.",
"It’s one thing to talk about a problem and to reprimand the oil companies for “charging whatever the market will bear;” but it is another thing to take action against these companies and legislate against such profiteering and rape of the public purse.",
"Nova Scotia took such action and rolled back prices. Where is Ontario’s defence of its citizens? Where is this Minister of Energy who is so knowledgeable, so powerful, so responsible and so mindful of the needs of the people of Ontario? I submit we can no longer accept the procrastination of the Minister of Energy, particularly as it applies to the pricing of oil and other sources of energy. We on this side of the House feel that Ontario can and must take an active stand in assuring the people of Ontario a continued supply of energy at a reasonable price and free of environmental hazards.",
"The recent national oil price agreement, which saw a price rise of Western Canadian crude from $4 to $6.50 a barrel brought to light an important question in the energy policy field. This question concerns the role of Ontario in setting the price of oil and natural gas. Canada still has nothing like a comprehensive national energy policy that would provide for rational, complementary development of all fuel sources, that would design the most efficient pattern of consumption and that would assure a fair return to producers."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"Does the member blame that on the Minister of Energy too?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Riddell",
"text": [
"Overall the problem ought not to be, as has been the case, of Ontario simply accommodating itself to price decisions in Alberta or any other province. Rather I would argue strongly that Ontario has an important part to play in any price-setting scheme. Regarding the oil price agreement, our Premier (Mr. Davis) has said that he was “not unhappy” with the results, even though the new oil price will add $400 million to Ontario’s energy bill.",
"Moreover, no explanation has been given by the government why a 62.5 per cent increase over the previous level was necessary or justified. Therefore, in such matters Ontario should act with the federal government, demanding the justification of any price increases.",
"Ontario must also take the responsibility to protect the consumer from oil company price increases. The present Ontario policy is inexcusable. But what, the government asks, can we do? The oil companies are national and multinational corporations. The Premier has said that prices established by national oil companies are matters to be dealt with by the federal government, and he flatly rejected the possibility of Ontario acting unilaterally.",
"I would argue, however, that Ontario ought to be able to police petroleum prices. One way in which this can be carried out is for the power of the Energy Board to be expanded to extend their controls over prices of fuel for domestic uses. On these matters there is no reason why Ontario should not follow the example set by the government of Nova Scotia.",
"Last December, the Nova Scotia government expanded the duties of its public utilities board to include the power to police wholesale prices of gasoline and fuel oil, to force the companies to justify increases, to hold public hearings and to roll back in- creases which, in the board’s view, the companies had failed to justify.",
"Mr. Chairman, I am equally concerned about the nuclear expansion programme announced by Ontario Hydro. Moreover, I am concerned about the reluctance of Ontario Hydro to reveal to the public the potential dangers of nuclear power. Ontario Hydro has stated that Ontario will have to commit 20 million kw of nuclear generating capacity in the next 10 years to meet the expected demand for electrical energy. However, many uncertainties are associated with this form of energy.",
"According to the Canadian government’s recent publication, “An Energy Policy for Canada,” it assumed, ill-advisedly, that Canada will opt almost entirely for nuclear fission to supplement and replace hydro and fossil fuels, since they are fully developed. It relegates unconventional energy sources, particularly solar energy, to a place of insignificance in government thinking. And while the decision has already been made to forge ahead with a huge programme of CANDU reactor construction, it has also made clear that a research programme for the long-term safe disposal of these wastes has only just begun.",
"The two major byproducts of a nuclear reactor are vast quantities of heat and large amounts of man-made radioactive materials. About 100 tons of various types of radioactive isotopes are manufactured each year within each reactor. While most of this waste is put into permanent storage, hopefully to be contained indefinitely therein -- since some of the spent fuels take about a million years to decay to the relatively low radioactive levels of natural uranium -- small but none the less significant quantities of radioactive products are released into the environment continuously during the operation of the reactor. As well, each reactor must dispose of over 100 cu yds of radioactive garbage each year, which is buried in disposal areas set aside for this purpose. But since the half-life of these fuels is so long, no satisfactory means of disposal has yet been found.",
"Therefore, I argue that much more needs to be known about the potential hazards of this source of energy and more research needs to be done on alternate sources of energy before the nuclear programme is accelerated.",
"There are possible several safer alternatives to nuclear energy for producing electricity, but ecologists and many scientists say they have been ignored. Some of these alternatives are solar power, tidal power, fusion, geothermal power.",
"It is my feeling that these alternatives are within our technological ingenuity and that any one of them could have been developed if roughly the equivalent resources that were brought to bear on developing nuclear energy had been applied.",
"Solar radiation is potentially the most abundant form of energy available to man, and it seems probable that practical schemes will eventually be devised to harness it in useful quantities in regions with sustained sunshine. Technology is already available for using solar energy to heat and cool residential and low-rise commercial buildings. Such systems approach economic feasibility. Heating water by solar energy is both economically and technically feasible. Additional research and development of systems and components, along with better insulation and construction methods, will make it possible to use this method as an alternative to a large portion of Canada’s current and future total energy requirements.",
"Wind power should be considered for isolated small communities, since most already use some form of energy storage method and wind is available in practically all places in Canada.",
"Also there have been radically new concepts for wind-generating systems from Canadian scientists and it is hoped that this approach will be brought into operation in the Canadian north.",
"Through the discussions of these alternatives I would like to point to the fact that other forms of energy rather than nuclear fusion are within the limits of man’s present technical knowledge. However, both federal and provincial governments in Canada currently appear to be particularly unresponsive to consideration of unconventional energy sources. All that is required is the decision of government agencies to provide the much-needed funds.",
"Besides the new alternatives which must be explored in the energy question, we must end our reckless waste of energy and stop the soaring growth in national consumption. The energy question is not just a matter of supply. The demand growth must slow down as well. Even if the country was not facing immediate fuel shortages, the case for slower energy growth would still be compelling.",
"Fortunately, much can be done to curb the country’s appetite for energy by eliminating the large inefficiencies in energy use. Poorly insulated homes, for example, waste half their heat. Many office buildings are overlighted. Some air conditioners consume twice as much electricity as models with the same cooling capacity, and a ton of freight shipped by truck takes nearly six times the energy as one shipped by rail.",
"If we are to establish a long-term energy policy which will be consistent with a finite world, we must strive to regulate our demands on our resources rather than developing them wastefully at the fastest possible rate. There is no reason why Ontario’s energy growth rate must accelerate by 4.6 per cent a year from 1970 to 1990. The government must recognize and appreciate the errors in our consumption pattern and must devise programmes which will encourage the conservation of energy and its more efficient use. The government must assume a more responsible role and take steps to encourage energy conservation.",
"I am also greatly concerned with the use of prime agricultural lands for the establishment of Hydro plants, power corridors and pipelines. When one considers the rate at which Ontario’s limited farming land is disappearing from agricultural use, the risk of any further losses brought about by Hydro lines being routed through areas specifically designated for future farming is a serious one. The province is losing 26 acres of prime agricultural land per hour to development.",
"Since there is a limited supply of class 1 and class 2 agricultural land in this province, and with demands being placed on these areas for non-agricultural uses such as residential and industrial development, recreational areas, etc. any intrusions on these lands for Hydro power lines and corridors should be minimal. Rather they should be located through low grade agricultural productive lands. Ontario Hydro, however, does not seem to take these ideas into consideration in energy construction projects. I would urge, therefore, that Ontario Hydro refrain from using prime farmland acreages when alternate classes of land are available and would serve the same purpose.",
"Mr. Chairman, to give you some idea of the concern of the people in my area regarding the proposed nuclear plant somewhere south of Goderich, I would like to read a short article that was sent by one of my constituents to the editor of one of the weekly papers. It reads:",
"“Dear Editor:",
"“April 8, 1974, the Ontario Bean Producers Marketing Board met in room 162, Queen’s Park, Toronto, with representatives of government and Ontario Hydro. The purpose was to discuss the proposed power development in Huron county.",
"“I stated in an earlier letter the reasons that the Ontario Bean Producers Marketing Board is opposing this development.",
"“Present at this meeting, along with the OBPMB directors, was Agriculture and Food Minister Stewart, his assistant, Mr. Eaton, the Minister of the Environment and his deputy, along with two representatives of Ontario Hydro and including the Deputy Minister of Energy. This meeting was set up in a very short time at the direct insistence of the Ontario Bean Producers Marketing Board.",
"“We are very concerned that the entire future of the white bean industry in Ontario is at stake. Air pollution of any type is detrimental to the growth of white beans. Power plants breed more industry which means more pollution.",
"“The white and yellow eye bean crop is worth about in excess of $50 million to the farmers and industry in Ontario. About $23 million of that money is coming into Huron county. Yes, the white bean industry is a very large one.",
"“I will point out some of the facts that were the result of yesterday’s meeting.",
"“The county official plan does not mean much. If Ontario Hydro wishes to build in Huron, they will, plan or no plan. The plant proposed for Huron will come on stream in 1984 or 1985. That is how close we are to seeing the development. Land acquisition will start in 1974 or 1975.",
"“The area in which the plant will be built is about six to seven miles south of Bayfield.",
"“Public opinion meetings will start immediately. We must prepare to fight against this development.",
"“Ontario Hydro indicated that they have nine other sites on which to build, but they are not alternates to the Huron site. The long range plan calls for a complete range of power plants to be built around the perimeter of Ontario using the Great Lakes system for cooling. The Huron plant may be nuclear or fossil-fuelled.",
"“Ontario Hydro indicated that the use of electric power is increasing at the rate of 7 per cent per year. They are prepared to take good agricultural land out of production, yet they are not concerned and do not even know the rate at which food consumption is increasing.",
"“Just what is more important to the people of Ontario -- adequate food at a reasonable price or excess electrical power?",
"“Ontario Hydro indicated that if the Huron plant did not go, we still would have adequate power. I submit we must fight like hell to stop this complete disruption of agricultural land.”",
"And, Mr. Chairman, I am still quoting from this article.",
"“Furthermore, I wish to see the bean industry carry on in Huron. Each farm commodity group in Huron county has opposed this development and has indicated its feelings to the Huron county development committee. The warden has publicly stated that he is opposed to any such development.",
"“So come on Huron county; let us fight this development and be prepared to fight like hell.”",
"That’s the end of the article."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. B. Gilbertson (Algoma)",
"text": [
"Send the plant up our way."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Riddell",
"text": [
"Mr. Minister, it can be seen just what the feelings of the people in my area are regarding this nuclear expansion.",
"Since they will license the land back to the farmer --",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Riddell",
"text": [
"I will repeat that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. M. Gaunt (Huron-Bruce)",
"text": [
"Just with one little interjection, and the member for Algoma got a whole power plant."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Riddell",
"text": [
"In addition, the manner in which Hydro deals with the farmers must be greatly improved."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. F. Foulds (Port Arthur)",
"text": [
"The member for Algoma has destroyed his maple syrup industry."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Riddell",
"text": [
"In methods of negotiation, Hydro merely offers the farmer a sum of money. If this is turned down, they are threatened with expropriation. Moreover, if a farmer is not happy with an expropriation plan or offer, the onus is on him for initiation of the defence action.",
"Often a farmer’s land is adversely divided by some Hydro project. This division in turn has very serious effects on his operation. Hydro says there is no problem, since it will license the land back to the farmer for a nominal fee so that he can work between the towers. However, this is not the case since work will be greatly hampered by the presence of the Hydro poles.",
"Moreover, with such a lease by Hydro they would have access to the property at their pleasure without obligation for any crop damages which may be incurred. The farmer is also responsible for any damage done to Hydro towers as a result of his routine work with his tractor equipment. All these problems which the farmer must face point to the fact that Ontario Hydro lacks sufficient knowledge of agriculture matters.",
"In closing, my general comments Mr. Chairman, I would just like to state that on Feb. 14, 1974, the Premier announced the restructuring of public utilities in Ontario. The formation of a 12-member Ontario Hydro board means that the government is taking over the assets of a system which it does not own. Since the board includes only two representatives of the Ontario Municipal Electrical Association, it would indicate there is not a fair representation of municipalities.",
"The government’s proposal for Hydro centralization should only be for the purpose of making a municipality stronger and more meaningful, and to transfer responsibility to the municipality. This fact, however, is questionable, since many local public utilities commissions fear restructuring. Most are now self-sufficient and not in need of contracting work to Ontario Hydro. Moreover, I am concerned that this centralization could lead to a less efficient dispersal of duties.",
"The Minister of Energy has indicated he feels the province’s 350 existing municipal utilities commissions could well be reduced to 100 or even 50. His argument is that amalgamated units could maintain the system with less equipment and fewer staff members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Huron --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Riddell",
"text": [
"I’m just finishing up, sir."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Chairman",
"text": [
"Well it is 6 o’clock."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Riddell",
"text": [
"However, when studies regarding restructuring take place the question of readily available service during times of adverse weather conditions must be of prime consideration. When a public utility commission is phased out or relocated, the fact that quick and efficient service to this area may be delayed for long periods of time must be kept in mind.",
"It being 6 o’clock, p.m., the House took recess."
]
}
] |
April 25, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-25/hansard-1
|
GO-URBAN SYSTEM
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. J. R. Rhodes (Minister of Transportation and Communications)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, last week a public tender was opened for the construction of a guideway for the transit demonstration project at the Canadian National Exhibition. The prices quoted in those tenders for the work at the CNE are greater than were calculated at the time we prepared our estimates in 1972.",
"Hon. members will recall that the TDS contract has two basic price components, the first being a fixed price component for the guideway components, power substations, the command and control system and the vehicles. The price quoted in May, 1973, for these components was $10,620,704. This price is subject only to exchange fluctuations and official price index changes in either Canada or Germany and as a fixed price is not subject to further changes.",
"The second price component was for civil engineering work and the contract called for this work to be awarded and priced by the method of public tenders. The work consists of a guideway contract, station contracts and a foundation contract. To date, only the foundation contract has been awarded. It totalled approximately $426,000. The guideway contract was opened Wednesday of last week and the lowest bid was $10,263,160. The station contract tenders have not yet been received. The earlier estimates of the developer and the civil engineering consultants were approximately $6.9 million, giving a total of approximately $17.5 million for the fixed and tendered price estimate.",
"The increase in guideway price has been occasioned by a number of factors such as the substantial price escalation experienced in all heavy construction during the past two years, together with a number of design changes which were found necessary as design progressed. Many of these changes were found necessary for aesthetic reasons in Exhibition Park and also to make it possible to have the guideway more adaptable for continued testing in future years.",
"Regarding the increased cost of all heavy construction, I would point out to the House that not only have there been large increases in labour costs, but all materials used in this work have become vastly more expensive during the past two years. For example, the wage rate increases for structural workers have averaged approximately 20 per cent between 1972 and 1974. We know also that some collective agreements are in existence which will further increase these rates in 1975 and, therefore, affect this contract by a further seven to 10 per cent. Other agreements will be expiring this year and will be up for renegotiation. There is every indication of even higher wage demands to keep pace with inflation. For example, the ready-mix-concrete truck drivers signed an agreement this week which increased their wages 35 per cent, including fringe benefits.",
"The increased cost of material since the start of 1972 has been even more dramatic, Mr. Speaker, when you consider that the main components of this contract are concrete and reinforcing steel and that concrete has increased in price in the past two years by 27 per cent and is expected to go up to 40 per cent by 1975. This increase does not take into consideration the increased wages referred to in respect to the ready-mix truck drivers. The other major component, reinforcing steel, has increased in price in the two-year period by 115 per cent. A further increase is certain to the point that we can expect an increase over 1972 of 140 per cent.",
"These are but examples of the major components, but I would add that all elements of material are subjected to varying degrees of inflation, somewhat comparable to the two mentioned. We, and industry, are finding it increasingly difficult to obtain firm price commitments for material to extend over any significant period of time. In other words, changes in prices and materials are almost on a daily basis.",
"From the aforementioned it is quite apparent that most of the increases in the guideway contract can be attributed to the inflation in material, service and labour. I would further point out that our own highway construction work is being subjected to these same pressures and we can certainly look forward to similar increases in respect to the new Toronto subway contracts which will soon be advertised, showing comparable increases experienced in the tenders which were opened last week for the guideways."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. A. J. Roy (Ottawa East)",
"text": [
"The statement of his predecessor is non-operative, eh?"
]
}
] |
April 23, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-23/hansard-1
|
SALES TAX
|
[
{
"speaker": "Hon. A. K. Meen (Minister of Revenue)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, on budget day, retail sales tax bulletin 74-1 was sent to the approximately 130,000 vendors in Ontario, advising them of budget proposals which would remove the retail sales tax on certain specific personal hygiene and household cleaning items and on footwear which sold for $30 or less per pair. As implementation of these exemptions required amendments to the Retail Sales Tax Act and certain regulations, it was not possible at that time to advise vendors of the effective date for implementation. All procedural steps have now been taken and the exemptions will apply to sales made on and after April 29, 1974.",
"However, due to the postal strike we are unable to forward by mail a supplementary tax bulletin advising vendors as to this date. In addition to making this statement, which we hope the press will pick up, we are proceeding to place notices in provincial daily papers. A tax bulletin has been prepared by the ministry and will be mailed to all registered vendors once the mails resume. In the interim period, for clarification of these instructions or information concerning additional exemptions, vendors should phone their district tax offices.",
"We solicit the general co-operation of the House in passing this word along to interested constituents."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"I’ll bet that really hurt the minister’s feelings having to put ads in the paper."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. J. B. Handleman (Minister of Housing)",
"text": [
"Who’s that?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Does it have his name on it?",
"Interjections by an hon. member."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"I am sure the hon. members of the House would be interested to learn that we have with us a very distinguished visitor today. The Rt. Hon. Peter Shore, who is British Secretary of State for Trade, is present in the Speaker’s gallery along with his party and I’m sure we would like to extend a special welcome to them."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"Now the member for Ottawa East should behave himself."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Oral questions. The Leader of the Opposition."
]
}
] |
April 23, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-23/hansard-1
|
GO-URBAN SYSTEM
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon (Leader of the Opposition)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Transportation and Communications, further to his statement just completed, if he is now prepared to give an estimate of the overall financial commitment of the government to prepare the whole maglev experimental track, stations and train for Use in the exhibition grounds by 1975? Is he actually telling the House that when the estimate was first prepared about 18 months or two years ago there was no ingredient involving the inflationary aspects of the materials and workmanship which must surely have been expected by any reasonable engineering projection?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, first of all I cannot give an answer as to what sort of consideration was given when that estimate was prepared two years ago. I didn’t have any part of it. Secondly, I can say that I cannot give a firm figure on the cost of the demonstration project at the CNE because we have not had the tenders returned on the development of the stations which will be necessary there. I can say to the hon member, though, that his estimate which he mentioned here in the House of about $23 million, I think, is fairly accurate."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. R Breithaupt (Kitchener)",
"text": [
"A supplementary, Mr. Speaker."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mrs. M. Campbell (St. George)",
"text": [
"Imagine that."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"He surprised himself."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"I knew it was right but I didn’t think he did."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"That’s the first time he has been mathematically right in two years."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"If the minister has the same officials advising him who advised his predecessor, can the minister inquire of those officials as to what factors were built in with respect to inflation possibilities?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I have been in discussion with. the officials as one might assume, and we are --",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Not the same ones his predecessor had.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"We are having continual discussions on this particular subject and, as I said, I cannot give a firm answer at this time as to what factors were used."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"An open-ended contract."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"I certainly don’t think anyone on either side of this House could have anticipated in 1972 the rate of increase we’ve been faced with in materials, service and labour in 1974.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. S. Lewis (Scarborough West)",
"text": [
"A supplementary: Working from the minister’s figures on the alleged inflationary spiral -- which I think is really grandly inflated, but leaving it at that -- is he willing to contemplate a GO-Urban system the total cost of which may now range to a quarter of a billion dollars beyond that which was originally suggested for the entire system when operative? Doesn’t he think it’s now time to strike a public strategic retreat to an alternative transportation network, modelled on light rail, and leave the entire GO-Urban fantasy to some other jurisdiction to deal with?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"That won’t be subject to inflation, eh?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Not this kind of inflation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I think that in this inflationary period we’re in despite -- I’m amazed the leader of the New Democratic Party says there’s no inflation."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Of course there’s inflation, but not the kind the minister is talking about."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"There is? He admits there’s inflation?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"The cost of the wages is not driving up the total."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"The answer to the question is simply this, I would say that I don’t think we can suddenly stop everything we are doing. The same inflationary factors apply to subway construction, to the development of light rails. Does the hon. member think he can buy a streetcar for the same price now as he could yeah ago?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"It is out of control, completely out of control."
]
}
] |
April 23, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-23/hansard-1
|
PUP TRAILERS
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"I would like to ask the same minister, Mr. Speaker, if, in light of the accident involving two large trucks with pup trailers designed to carry petroleum, he can report to the House that his officials are now of a mind we ought to bring these special types of trucks under more strict and severe regulation; or that we might even contemplate banning them on our roads since there have been so many accidents associated with them?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the accident to which the hon. member is referring occurred around 4:30 this morning. It has already been investigated by the ministry.",
"I can tell the House that in no way was the pup trailer in any way responsible for that accident. It was a rear-end collision in which a tank truck ran into the rear end of a flat-bed truck; that is the collision to which he is referring. Fortunately, there were no injuries.",
"I can tell members that we are, and continually have been, looking at the problem of pup-trailer trucks on the highways. It may well be they will have to be removed but I can’t make a firm commitment at this time."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"A supplementary? The minister is aware that his predecessor, who is referred to from time to time in this House --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt",
"text": [
"Very favourably."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. V. M. Singer (Downsview)",
"text": [
"Now that he’s gone he is a great fellow."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"-- had undertaken in a very similar way to investigate problems of this type, particularly in connection with petroleum transportation. Surely the time has come when the ministry’s officials should be able to say they are either safe or not? I am here, Mr. Speaker, to say to you that the community believes they are not safe."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I think it is fair to say that one of the big problems in the past has been the type of coupling that was used; I think that has been corrected.",
"Certainly the ministry has been dealing with the petroleum industry on this problem in an effort to have them co-operate. They have indicated every intention to be as co-operative as they possibly can to make this a safe vehicle. If the vehicle is not safe then I will give the member this commitment: If it cannot be made safe on the highways then I would certainly recommend it be taken off the highways."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. E. R. Good (Waterloo North)",
"text": [
"Put them back on the slow roads where they belong."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. D. M. Deacon (York Centre)",
"text": [
"Supplementary: In view of the fact that for the last 15 months almost every accident involving petroleum-carrying vehicles of this sort has involved pup trailers, and there has been a plethora of them, would the minister not agree it is already evident the regulations should be changed to stop these pup trailers being further used? Obviously this morning’s problem occurred because the pup trailer couldn’t be controlled when the brakes were applied."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I didn’t investigate the accident; I wasn’t up at 4:30 this morning, perhaps the member was."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Singer",
"text": [
"Well, the minister should be."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)",
"text": [
"Why wasn’t he? Does he have a guilty conscience?",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes",
"text": [
"I can say that the statistics on the number of accidents involving these trucks are as they are because most of the petroleum trucks travelling on our highways today are involved with these pup trailers. Whether they in themselves are the cause of the accidents or not, no one can really say; no more than the member can say accurately that the one that occurred this morning was caused by the pup trailer."
]
}
] |
April 23, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-23/hansard-1
|
OIL PRICES
|
[
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"A question of the Minister of Energy, Mr. Speaker: In light of the fact that Imperial Oil has announced profits in the first quarter of 1974 of $92.7 million, twice last year’s profit, is he now prepared to recommend --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Well! Well!"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Roy",
"text": [
"Did the member think his people had a patent on that type of question?",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"-- to recommend to his colleagues in the ministry --",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order please."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I appreciate your intervention. I even appreciate the intervention of the leader of the NDP (Mr. Lewis).",
"I would like to ask the minister if he is prepared, under these circumstances, to recommend to his colleagues that the powers of the Energy Board be expanded, as we suggested when the Energy Board was established with new powers a year ago, to extend its controls over prices to domestic use of fuels."
]
},
{
"speaker": "An hon. member",
"text": [
"As has been done in Nova Scotia."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Say; there is a good point."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. W. D. McKeough (Minister of Energy)",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I don’t specifically recall the suggestion made by the Leader of the Opposition."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. D. C. MacDonald (York South)",
"text": [
"Nor do we, nor do we."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"Just check Hansard."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"It occurs to me that that great gathering in a telephone booth at Sudbury this weekend might recommend that to their federal party and they will do a little bit better job."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Supplementary: Since the minister supervises the Energy Board of the Province of Ontario, which does have price control, or price recommendation powers, why would he not assume the same powers can be used at the provincial level the way they are, for example, by the government in the Province of Nova Scotia?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman",
"text": [
"What kind of powers do you need for recommendations?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, my reading of the Act does not indicate to me that those powers presently exist in the Ontario Energy Board Act.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"A supplementary if I may; a supplementary --"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"The hon. member for Scarborough West, a supplementary."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Surely the minister would agree that an amendment would give those powers?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I agree completely with the Leader of the Opposition that an amendment would give those powers."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"A supplementary: Is the minister, in fact, as has been reported, reviewing the possibility of imposing a price level in the Province of Ontario for costs for gasoline and home fuel oil charged by the major oil companies?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, I and the ministry have been preoccupied with the problems associated with wind energy but when we get ourselves off that subject we’ll turn to the subject which has been suggested by the leader of the New Democratic Party."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"No, no. I’m not going to be diverted so easily. While he trumpets around the countryside clobbering the oil companies, are all of the minister’s speeches dealing in the direction of introducing legislation in the House which will give to his ministry the right to set or roll bade prices in the area of gasoline and home fuel oil, as has been suggested in other jurisdictions and as he has indicated publicly he is now interested in?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, these are matters which are under consideration."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Lewis",
"text": [
"They are not."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker: Now that Shell Oil has indicated that it is willing to forgo the 2%-cent unnecessary increase for non-existent costs, can the minister indicate whether that is likely to be a pattern subscribed to by the other oil companies? Is he going to take any initiative to see that it is the pattern accepted?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman",
"text": [
"I thought they were. It sounds like it. They always work together."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, the matter of the Shell Oil increase, or non-increase -- or the industry increase, or non-increase -- is being dealt with, as the member is well aware, by the government of Canada through the Department of Energy, Mines and Resources and through the National Energy Board. That is a matter for their consideration.",
"I congratulate Shell Oil for the position which they have taken that this increase is perhaps not necessary, in their view, at this moment in time. But whether the rest of the industry will follow suit, or whether the government of Canada will determine that an increase is necessary or not, is something for the government of Canada to decide at this moment. I would suggest that the member get on that pipeline, through his leader to the federal leader, and sort that little matter away."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon",
"text": [
"Oh, here we go."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"A further supplementary: If perchance the federal government in Ottawa isn’t persuaded to accept its responsibilities, will the minister accept his, in his constitutional jurisdiction, of control of retail prices in the Province of Ontario through the Ontario Energy Board to make certain that that unnecessary increase doesn’t take place here?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough",
"text": [
"Mr. Speaker, my leader and this government have made it clear for over a year that when the government of Canada is prepared to come to grips with the problem of wage and price controls then this government will co-operate to the fullest."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. P. D. Lawlor (Lakeshore)",
"text": [
"Answer the question.",
"Interjections by hon. members."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. Speaker",
"text": [
"Order. There have been five supplementaries, which is reasonable in accordance with our standing orders. Does the hon. Leader of the Opposition have further questions?",
"The hon. member for Scarborough West."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. J. A. Renwick (Riverdale)",
"text": [
"Why take him off the hook?"
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. MacDonald",
"text": [
"He needs to be taken off the hook."
]
},
{
"speaker": "Mr. E. W. Martel (Sudbury East)",
"text": [
"What’s all this blunderbussing as he goes around this province, then?"
]
}
] |
April 23, 1974
|
https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-23/hansard-1
|
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