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BUDGET DEBATE	[ { "speaker": "Mr. D. C. MacDonald (York South)", "text": [ "I hope I don’t disappoint the new Minister of Revenue (Mr. Meen) too completely, but I’ll have some comments on the matter of his current preoccupation.", "Mr. Speaker, the outstanding characteristic of the budget that was presented to us last week is one of an illusion of progress with very little reality. And that is why my first reaction was to dub it a streaker’s budget --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. A. K. Meen (Minister of Revenue)", "text": [ "Who wrote that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "-- because at first glance it’s attractive but it doesn’t stand up to any closer examination.", "The only people still being taken in by this budget appear to be the government backbenchers. They were so depressed by the relentless succession of bad fortune suffered by their party, some self-inflicted and some fortuitous, that they can be forgiven their rather euphoric reaction; but the general public has learned from experience to view critically what this government does and what it leaves undone.", "But it was characteristic, Mr. Speaker, that the provincial Treasurer (Mr. White) should bring in this kind of a budget. He is a streaker by nature, the provincial Treasurer." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Yes, he was born that way." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "A streaker by nature. I repeat, a streaker by nature.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "He is the only hon. member in this House -- with the possible exception of the hon. member for High Park (Mr. Shulman) -- who has the necessary combination of energy, courage and indiscretion to physically streak through this Legislature; but I suppose that would be too much of an affront to the traditions of the House, so instead he does it by way of the budget.", "For a fleeting moment it was something of a dazzling performance. But upon further thought and closer study, I’m not so sure, Mr. Speaker, but that my reaction was too generous as far as the provincial Treasurer is concerned. I have a growing suspicion that even I was taken in a little." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "No." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "You see, Mr. Speaker, I rather like the provincial Treasurer. He is an interesting guy.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "He is somewhat offbeat. He is certainly unpredictable. He has something more than mere pretensions to intellectualism. In all, he is rather a pleasant relief to the kind of stuffy atmosphere created by some of his cabinet colleagues.", "But my sober second thoughts, when I had gotten over this rather kind reaction to the provincial Treasurer, led me to the conclusion that with this budget the provincial Treasurer has established himself as the leading flim-flam artist in Ontario budgetary history.", "Interjection by an hon. member," ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "I want to spend an hour or two this afternoon exploring the true ramifications of his flim-flamming exercise, otherwise known as the budget in 1974.", "The provincial Treasurer’s whole budgetary posture, Mr. Speaker, is one of anti-inflation, because it is the thing to do today. It looks well. Unfortunately, the facts belie his posture.", "The budget of the last Robarts year reached $5.2 billion. During the first four years of this government’s budgets, they have climbed from $6 billion to $6.5 billion to $7.3 billion, and this year to $8.3 billion.", "It is interesting to recall that in the first 100 years of Ontario’s history, from 1867 to 1967, we didn’t quite reach our first $2 billion budget; and yet within the first four years of this government it has added a cool $3 billion more to the budget.", "Those figures give the lie to the government’s contention that they are successfully restraining expenditures and therefore playing their part in checking inflation; one of the basic arguments advanced by the Premier (Mr. Davis) many, many times.", "In fact, the premise upon which this budget was built is one of an acceptance of inflation. The government is living off the profits of inflation. It even speaks of sharing those profits with the municipalities. That was a headline in the budget text.", "The net tax increase was nil. Taxes were cut by $140 million on one hand and increased by $147 million on another; a minor shift to the hitherto lightly-tapped corporate and resource sources of revenue to compensate for the government’s gesture of greater tax equity for those who have been carrying too much of the burden for too long.", "It is interesting to note, Mr. Speaker, that when the BC budget was recently brought in, Premier Barrett dubbed it the resource dividend budget. The expansion of services to the people is being financed by more equitable levies on the resources of the province.", "Here in Ontario our provincial Treasurer has brought in an inflation dividend budget, all the while contending that he is freely engaged in an all out fight against inflation. It is a flagrant exercise in flim-flamming the public. Let me take a moment to document it.", "The hallmark of the 1974 budget is that we are getting something for nothing. Imagine that philosophy coming from the Tories -- getting something for nothing." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. J. White (Treasurer, Minister of Economics and Intergovernmental Affairs)", "text": [ "No wonder the member smiles when he says that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Pardon?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "No wonder the member is saying those things with a smile." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. F. Foulds (Port Arthur)", "text": [ "That’s because he likes the Treasurer." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "The member for York South knows that what he is saying is flim-flam." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Do I? Well, the Treasurer should wait until I have laid all the facts on the table and then he will be flim-flammed into silence and perhaps into some effort to reply substantively.", "As I was saying, the hallmark of the 1974 budget is that we are getting something for nothing -- a kind of philosophy that normally is condemned on the other side of the House.", "For example, transit fares are being frozen; pensioners are getting GAINS; municipalities are being revenue-shared; not to mention the housing prices stabilized -- and we are not paying anything for it. Tax rates are not being changed for anybody except the nasty speculators and foreigners and the resources corporations, who supposedly are going to be taxed until they beg for mercy.", "True we are spending $1 billion more this year -- a cool billion dollars more -- but the speculation tax, mines taxes and timber royalties only add up to $150 million. Where does the rest of the money come from? Why it’s collected from that money tree that the Treasurer keeps in the vault in the Frost Building, or it’s financed out of the public debt that we don’t have.", "We don’t pay taxes to the “Ontari-ari-ari-o” government, do we Mr. Speaker? We pay taxes to the greedy “feds,” and the kindly provincial Treasurer just gives us more and more tax credits and labels it on the tax forms to make certain that he gets the credit. And just to make sure, Mr. Speaker, that they don’t forget it, next year he is going to bestow the goodies all by himself and not through the federal tax system." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "That is not so." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Now let’s take a look. Let’s take a look at how the Province of Ontario is living off the avails of inflation and boasting about it in the process. You would expect that kind of a thing from the swinging provincial Treasurer.", "During 1974 to 1975, Ontario’s revenue increase is forecast at $833 million. That figure breaks down as follows: 15.7 per cent is $131 million net from new taxes and royalties; 48.4 per cent is the $403 million from inflation and the sales tax, the personal income tax, the corporation tax and LCBO profit; 13.14 per cent is $112 million from non-inflationary expansion of the tax base; 14.2 per cent is $118 million added revenue from the federal government; and 8.3 per cent is the $69 million from interest on investments. Thus it is seen Mr. Speaker, that the largest component, 48.4 per cent -- almost half of Ontario’s new revenue next year -- is a windfall from inflation.", "Now, one or two of the components of that revenue breakdown that I have just given you deserve a little more comment. It’s interesting, for example, that the government doesn’t expect to increase revenues significantly through inflation in the corporate income. Even including the $75 million payment from the federal government to compensate for a federal tax concession to corporations, the corporation income tax will yield only $41 million more in 1974 to 1975 than it did in 1973-1974. Part of the explanation, of course, is the $21 million in tax concessions which were granted to corporations in this budget.", "Also, Mr. Speaker, it is interesting to note that the LCBO profits of $312 million for the next year will bring in more revenue than the combined total of the speculation tax, the foreign land transfer tax, the mines profits tax, all the timber royalties and succession duties. So eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we may have to tax Inco. That’s the kind of approach of the government today.", "In the face of these figures, what effrontery it is for the provincial Treasurer to try and kid the public that his budget is anti-inflationary. Why Mr. Speaker, flim-flam is almost too kind a comment." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)", "text": [ "It’s the La Scala budget" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "La Scala!", "Let me broaden out beyond the budget for a moment, Mr. Speaker, to consider related activities on the part of this administration.", "Throughout this session the Davis administration has sought to create the public image of an all-out fight against inflation. Thus we have the Throne Speech, and I quote:", "“My government will employ all practical means at its disposal to alleviate the causes and effects of inflation.”", "And now in the budget, I quote:", "“The government of Ontario is willing to use every practical measure within its constitutional jurisdiction to combat inflation.”", "Well Mr. Speaker, it simply isn’t true. Here we have the flim-flam artists at their misleading best. Admittedly the government has done some things to alleviate the effects of inflation. I shall deal with them in more detail in a moment. But as for alleviating the causes of inflation, this government is guilty of an almost complete cop-out. It attempts to flim-flam the public about using all practical means at its disposal, “every practical measure within its constitutional jurisdiction,” but its record in this connection is virtually blank.", "I dealt with this to some extent in an abbreviated contribution to the Throne Speech debate. Just let me recap some of the points I made then, and then I can proceed.", "First, since last summer’s public furore over food prices, the government has sought to create a public image of great concern. The Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations (Mr. Clement) has promised, often in tones of pained belligerence, that he would bring in a business practices Act to prohibit unfair and deceptive practices; give the courts power to rule on what is an unconscionable profit; explore cease and desist orders in case of excessive price increases; arm the government with authority to act against food hoarding, speculating, profiteering and fraud; and monitor regional price disparities.", "It sounds like a pretty impressive programme. But after months of huffing and puffing all we have is part one of a long-term study. The minister asserts that he can do nothing until he gets all the facts. And he stresses how hard it’s going to be to get the facts. All these promises were at least premature. In reality they were flim-flam, an illusion of action where there is no action taking place at all.", "In a second area, the Minister of Agriculture and Food (Mr. Stewart) misrepresents the picture by asserting that all, or at least most, of the consumer price increases for food are going back to the farmer. And heaven knows the farmer needs them after 20 years of depressed prices between 1951 and 1971. Nobody denies that.", "But the primary producer represents only 20 per cent of the giant food industry. A growing number of middlemen, ranging from storage to transportation to processing to retailing, represent the remaining 80 per cent.", "The food processors, for example, enjoyed an 81 per cent increase in profits during the last quarter of 1973, as compared with the final quarter of 1972. The supermarket retailers enjoy a good return on equity, publicly disguised as only one per cent of the consumer’s dollar; to which is added a highly wasteful 10 per cent in advertising and another five per cent in gimmickry and super-plush quarters, for all of which the consumer pays.", "And what does this government do about these middlemen operations which cut returns to the farmers and boost costs to the consumers? Nothing!", "Well that’s not quite right. The government is never completely passive. While conceding that they don’t really have all the facts, their spokesmen nevertheless continuously defend price increases by the middlemen saying that their costs are going up too. There’s no effort to find out whether the price increases are justified.", "For example, the four western provinces, including the Tory government of Peter Lougheed in Alberta, have set up price review machinery to dig out the facts on the two major farm input costs, namely fertilizer and machinery. But this government does nothing. Instead it hosts an expensive fertilizer conference to prove what everybody knew beforehand, that fertilizer is in short supply and that the oligopoly of the industry is capitalizing on the situation with higher prices. No wonder farm leaders in the OFA, the NFU and the Christian Farmers’ Federation unanimously dismiss the whole exercise as a whitewash, as reported on the front-page news story of Farm and Country.", "It is clearly within the constitutional jurisdiction of the province, first to investigate, and second to control, and where necessary roll back, prices within the Province of Ontario. This is a “practical” means -- that word that the government used in the Throne Speech and the budget -- this is a practical means of imposing some check on rising prices; but it is cavalierly dismissed by this government at every turn.", "All of which underlines a third area for action, a prices review board, either on isolated commodities such as fertilizer or farm machinery or across the board.", "If there was a will, this government could smoke out flagrant and unjustified price increases. There is a way to do it, but there is no will on the part of this government -- and that’s our problem." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)", "text": [ "They have no sense of responsibility." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Why? In addition to having no sense of responsibility, their lack of responsibility springs, I want to suggest, from their basic philosophy. This government is so firmly committed to a doctrinaire belief in the efficacy of the free-market operation that it seeks one excuse after another to justify its inaction. They are shirking what is not only a clear constitutional responsibility but an obligation.", "As a result, there is nobody to champion the consumers, except a minister with that name, who joins the provincial Treasurer as the gold dust twins of the flim-flam circus. Well, let me turn -- he’s smiling; mind you, he is smiling, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. W. Ferrier (Cochrane South)", "text": [ "The Minister of Agriculture and Food is showing remarkable restraint." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "It isn’t easy --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "After that budget and that calculated deception of the people of Ontario, I can quite understand why the minister would feel a little conscience-stricken." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "No, it isn’t easy to smile while the member is on his feet. It is very difficult." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "However, let me turn to a final area where the need is perhaps immediately greatest and where the government has a mechanism at hand that could be assigned to the job, and where the Minister of Energy (Mr. McKeough) stubbornly refuses to do anything about it. I refer to the prospective hike in energy costs from crude oil.", "In mid-May, so we are told, gasoline costs will go up 10 cents a gallon, with an equivalent rise for home fuel oil. For every cent increase in the price of gasoline, there will be $5.60 increase in the cost of living for every Ontarian on an average, whether they own a car or not so to speak.", "If the increase is 10 cents, that is a per capita outlay of $56 a year, or $224 for an average family of four. This government asserts that seven cents of that increase is justified by the boost in crude oil to $6.50 per barrel. That represents a cool $313 million more from the consumers of Ontario.", "Does the government have the facts to confirm whether that seven cents is justified? No. They continue to accept the oil companies’ self-serving statistics.", "Furthermore, experts in Ottawa estimate that the non-crude increase in cost would be covered by another half cent per gallon. But the oil companies propose to cream off an extra 2% cents per gallon when the price goes up on May 15. That extra 2%-cent unjustified rip-off represents $14 for each man, woman and child in the Province of Ontario, or a total of $112 million a year -- well over one-half of the outlay represented by the government’s much-vaunted anti-inflation measures in this budget.", "What the government puts in one pocket of the consumer, all the while preening itself as the champion of the anti-inflation fight, it stands idly by while the multinational corporations take it out of the other pocket.", "Are there practical means to cope with this, Mr. Speaker? Is it within the province’s constitutional jurisdiction to do anything about gas and oil prices? Of course it is. As the leader of the New Democratic Party pointed out earlier in question period, Nova Scotia has just proven how effective corrective actions can be." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. M. Deacon (York Centre)", "text": [ "That’s a good Liberal government." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Yes, a Liberal government that is acting out of character for the Liberals. Show me another one that is doing the same thing." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "It’s a good Liberal government." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Ferrier", "text": [ "There aren’t many of them around." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Does the hon. member mean that if a Liberal government acts out of character it becomes a good Liberal government? Well, I will reflect on that one tonight." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Ferrier", "text": [ "There are not many Liberal governments around these days." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "I think there are just as many as there are NDP governments." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Down in the Atlantic Provinces last fall, Mr. Speaker, the Nova Scotia Legislature extended the powers of the Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities to investigate price increases and to impose a price rollback where the increases were not justified.", "And just last week, following February hearings, that Nova Scotia provincial board forced a rollback in prices on Imperial Oil; even more, reimbursements of the overcharge to the consumers.", "In fact, Mr. Speaker, the age of miracles isn’t over. Earlier this year, in face of an investigation that was only pending, the Irving Oil Company voluntarily rolled back one price increase and reimbursed its consumers. That Santa Claus role on the part of K. C. Irving has Maritimers still a bit aghast.", "Now in the Ontario Energy Board this government has the mechanism for price review and rollback. All we need to do is what they did in Nova Scotia; pass the necessary amendment to the Act, as was done last fall, and grant our Energy Board those powers.", "In fact last June the hon. member for Chatham-Kent (Mr. McKeough) reported to the Premier that this expanded role for the Energy Board should be studied by the energy secretariat which his report was proposing. He pointed to the obvious anomaly that natural gas prices, and now Hydro prices, are subject to review by the Energy Board; so why not gasoline and oil prices, why should they be exempted?", "The Premier has made excuses that oil companies are different. They deal in interprovincial and international trade, one of the 1,001 excuses. But insofar as they operate in Ontario and retail to Ontario consumers, their prices are subject to our jurisdiction. Nova Scotia has proven what everybody knew; everybody, that is, except this government.", "What does the government do? It simply ignores the $112 million rip-off scheduled for commencement on May 15. The Ministry of Energy now encompasses the energy secretariat which the member for Chatham-Kent said last June should study this matter. The member for Chatham-Kent is himself the minister presiding over that secretariat. But nothing happens. The silence is deafening. Ensconced high atop the Sunoco building, symbolizing the Ministry of Energy’s cozy relationship with the oil companies, in spite of the odd rather belligerent speech with regard to them, the Minister of Energy sits idly by while the consumers are being subjected to another multi-million dollar fleecing.", "Well sitting idly by maybe isn’t quite accurate, Mr. Speaker. For the Minister of Energy never sits. He’s a very energetic person, delivering a speech a day on problems, domestic and international. In fact what he has done is to join that chorus of flim-flam artists posing as champions of anti-inflation measures while steadfastly refusing to use all of those practical measures to which other provinces are now resorting. Meanwhile the Minister of Energy keeps singing his siren song. It’s the solo effort, highlighting the continual performance of other Davis flim-flam artists.", "On the one hand he laments the oligopolic practices of the international oil cartel of the Middle East, which as the minister says engaged in the classical monopolistic practice of creating artificial shortages and then escalating prices.", "But meanwhile he ignores the documented testimony of congressional investigations in Washington that these same oil companies in the Middle East acted in concert with the “Sheiks of Araby” to help boost oil prices, and therefore their own profits. He chooses to ignore the operations of those self same oil companies, Canadian subsidiaries of the international cartel, operating in precisely the same manner back here in Canada.", "Consider, Mr. Speaker, the testimony of the chief spokesman for Imperial Oil before the hearings of the Nova Scotia Board of Commissioners of Public Utilities as carried on the front page of the Feb. 16 Globe and Mail. And I quote:", "“Pricing is not a cost-plus formula. We don’t determine in our pricing the cost of our product, we get what we can from the tone of the market.” The Imperial Oil spokesman told the hearing that pricing involves a great deal of judgement. “It’s one of the great mystics of our industry.”", "It surely is one of the greatest mystics of their industry. But let me continue; he elaborates on the mystic mildly.", "At another point he said: “Costs are only one consideration in pricing policy. And if they go down that doesn’t necessarily mean that the prices of fuel, for example, will go down. Our ability to move prices is not our costs. [So spake Imperial Oil.] We make our price increases fundamentally on whether market conditions will allow us.”", "In other words, we have been given by the oil industry here in Canada -- subsidiaries of that international cartel that the Minister of Energy has spent so much time chastising -- an updating of that illuminating, refreshingly frank statement of the late J. S. MacLean of Canada Packers some years ago when he said: “We pay the farmers as little as possible and we charge the consumers as much as the traffic will bear. That is business.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "In 1948. I remember it well." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "In 1948, was it? Maybe the Treasurer wrote the speech for him.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "It’s in keeping with the Treasurer’s beliefs." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Quite true, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "What did the member do when he sold his old car and bought a new one?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "But where are the champions of the consumers, to protect them against this open, blatant exploitation? The Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations is studying the problem." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Does the member for York Centre believe that is the right way to do business?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "The hon. member for York Centre can have his speech later. He can speak later. He should not try to run interference as though he was back in the leadership race or something like that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "The aggravation by the NDP House leader is causing that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "I was asking where were the champions of the consumers in Ontario. The Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations is studying that problem and that can be a life-long pursuit. The Minister of Agriculture and Food is holding national conferences to document the obvious. The Minister of Energy is high atop the Sunoco building preparing his next speech --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. A. Stewart (Minister of Agriculture and Food)", "text": [ "Why not tell us what the western provinces are going to do about the report on their investigation into the fertilizer industry?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "We will find out. They are in the process of doing it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "They have had the report for a month and haven’t moved an inch on it; not an inch. Now let’s be reasonable." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "At least they got the facts out and the minister will find out they are going to do something about it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "That is great. We will wait with bated breath, but not holding our breath -- that wouldn’t be safe." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "As I said, the Minister of Energy is high atop the Sunoco building preparing his next speech for the Chamber of Commerce in Chatham or Whitby or Kapuskasing. And where are the provincial Treasurer, the Premier, the whole government? They are handing back a little of the people’s own money to ease the pain and suffering caused by inflationary prices, while doing nothing to check the causes of the disease itself. It is as impressive an array of flim-flam artists as this province has ever seen.", "Well, so much for the government’s own sins of omission. I suppose you can’t really be pinned for sins of omission as effectively or as solidly as the sins of commission, so let’s consider them specifically in this budget.", "The simple truth is that the average Ontario family is worse off because of this budget. Now that doesn’t square with the government’s efforts at image making, so I would like to analyse the impact of the average family to document my conclusions.", "There are two identifiable areas of savings brought on by this budget.", "First, there are the tax credits. Despite the budget claim that the property tax credit will be doubled from $90 to $180; and that that “will more than offset the increase in heating bills for these low-income families and individuals least able to bear such a cost increase”, changes in this will do little for the average family -- two adults and two children under 16 on the average family income of approximately $12,000-in Ontario. Table 9 on page A-11 shows that such a family will actually receive total tax credits of $124, an increase of $18 over the 1973 figure. There is the average Ontario family. Its tax credits, in total, go up from $106 to $124.", "Second, sales tax exemptions: The average family will save about $22 in 1974 from the added exemptions. This is calculated by dividing the $43 million which the government itself expects to lose by the Ontario population of eight million and multiplying by four for an average family.", "There will be an additional saving to public transit users of between $30 and $40 for each daily commuter. This will be limited, however, to only some residents -- some residents, not all -- of six cities. Families with no transit users in those cities and all families living in other municipalities will have no saving at all.", "Let’s turn now to expenses brought on by this budget. Estimated increases in the cost of heating oil and gasoline may mean an increase of approximately $185 per family. On increased beer prices, assuming, I suppose this is a rash assumption, a case of 24 every two weeks, that would be an increase --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "That is quite a conservative assumption." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Always in criticizing this government, I err on the conservative side. That would be an increase of $13 a year per family, a sizable contribution to the extra $31 million of LCBO revenue as shown in the budget.", "Finally, municipal governments are expected to experience a financing deficit of $182 million, of which the government will provide only $124 million.", "If I may just interject here, Mr. Speaker, for years the government has been arguing --", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Just listen for a moment -- that the increase in grants to the municipalities exceeded the increases the municipalities were going to experience so that their mill rates could come down. The government boasts about the extent to which they have come down. Take note of the fact that we’ve come to the end of that happy trail. This year inaugurates, and it was backed up verbally, the fact that the government is not now going to cover the whole cost of the increase; it is going to leave some of it to the municipalities. In fact, in the coming year the difference of $58 million will probably mean an increase of 3.2 mills." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "The member is overlooking the tax balance." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Well --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. F. Laughren (Nickel Belt)", "text": [ "No, he has taken those into account." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "I’ve taken those into account in another connection.", "Assuming the tax rate is 100 mills, roughly the current rate in Metro, the increase on a house assessed at $5,000 would be $16.", "Mr. Speaker, the amount for the increase in heating oil, the increase in beer, the increase in the mill rate, totals $214 extra expenses brought on by this budget. What is the net result? Tax credit and expanded sales tax exemptions will mean a saving of $40 for a family of four living on the average Ontario family income of $12,000. For those living in selective cities where the transit subsidy will be effective the saving could be up to $80.", "However, provisions in the budget regarding fuel, municipal taxation and sundry items such as LCBO profits will result in further expenses which will far exceed the savings.", "There are other items which might be included in both savings and expense categories, such as the ripple effect of fuel price increases throughout the economy, but those listed are the most identifiable. Therefore we come to this overall conclusion. For those families benefiting from the transit fare increase, expenses will exceed savings by $134 per family. That’s what this budget costs the average family in the Province of Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Shame." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "And for other families --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "That is absolute nonsense." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "And for other families who don’t get the public transit, the expenses will exceed the savings by $174.", "In short, Mr. Speaker, the Treasurer has fiddled around with some taxes. He has focused some assistance on worthy groups such as senior citizens but the average Ontario family is definitely worse off and no amount of flim-flamming can disguise that fact." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "The member is definitely mistaken." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Did the provincial Treasurer really have something to say?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "He has carefully overlooked the increase in per household incomes, which will approximate 10 per cent" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "What is he talking about?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "I’m talking about --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "He doesn’t even understand." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "I’m talking about the impact of the budget in terms of the greater expenses and of the benefits it included. I come up with the figure that for the average family at least $134 and perhaps $174 more is what he is going to have to pay. He is going to be that much worse off; and let’s have some challenge of those figures instead of some irrelevancies such as the Treasurer is now bringing in.", "Now Mr. Speaker, let me consider the one group, the senior citizens, where the government did belatedly move in the budget to provide more adequate income. We have another alphabet soup name -- GAINS -- Ontario’s guaranteed annual income system." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "It reflects on dog food. That is what most of them were eating." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "Gainsburgers? Is that where the Treasurer got the idea?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. A. Carruthers (Durham)", "text": [ "More water for the windmill." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "In several important respects, Mr. Speaker, Ontario’s GAINS programme is cribbed from the BC income plan. I notice the minister doesn’t deny that. One can be thankful that Ontario has finally at least pointed itself in the right direction. The provincial Treasurer doesn’t publicly admit, of course, that the BG plan was the source of Ontario’s inspiration or challenge; but I was interested to learn from the media representatives that in the private briefings, ministry spokesmen were at great pains to try to convince them that Ontario’s package of GAINS -- prescription drugs, property tax rebate, et all -- was actually more generous than that of BC.", "Perhaps for once it will have to be admitted, even by the cabinet spokesmen, that Ontario is just catching up on some other jurisdiction in Canada and the western world and the universe. For while emulation is the highest form of praise, there are significant problems and omissions in Ontario’s GAINS.", "In the first place, the age of eligibility is 65 while in BC their resource dividend made it possible for them to lower the age to 60. Such a change in Ontario would add another 50,000 people to the relatively limited number of 30,000 who are going to benefit in the first instance from GAINS.", "Secondly, the budget provides only for income levels that will be raised in the future to compensate for increased costs of living. Why this chiselling approach? Why not a built-in escalator clause, which has become accepted as the only fair way to maintain purchasing power in pensions or things of this nature? Is the government reserving piecemeal handouts to be made on the appropriate political occasions, say just before the next election? Is that what they have in mind?", "Thirdly, residency requirements are established for GAINS-five years in Canada or one in Ontario. BC has no such requirement. And what is more important, the Canada Assistance Plan specifically excludes any federal sharing in the funding where residency requirements are imposed. Has Ontario worked out a special deal with the “feds”? Or is it just a stupid way of cutting Ontario out of this federal source of funding so that government spokesmen will have something more to complain about with Ottawa?", "I don’t want to sound ungenerous, Mr. Speaker, in my reaction to the government’s move in the right direction by providing more adequate income for our senior citizens, but last December, when we were debating the $50 Christmas bonus which “Santa Claus Davis” handed out -- and incidentally that $17 million one-shot present is now going to be eliminated by or absorbed in the $75 million spent on GAINS -- there was a bewildering array of excuses from the government side as to why they could do no more.", "They ranged from the fatuous comments of the hon. member for Algoma (Mr. Gilbertson) that the senior citizens didn’t want the bonus and would hand it back; or that their admiring sons, daughters and grandchildren would prefer to look after the grandparents; to the more carefully worded statement of cabinet spokesmen that it was not in the government’s priorities at that time.", "Well, we’re glad that it has now come into the government’s list of higher priorities -- with at least a beginning on what is going to become a basic social security measure of the future. And once again, the NDP has provided the ideas and the goading to leaven the stale loaf of so-called Tory compassion.", "Well Mr. Speaker, I would like to turn now to the two areas of tax increases: The new speculation tax and the land transfer tax. Clearly, the government deemed them to be of major public image-making potential.", "First, there is the land speculation tax, and particularly its influence on housing. I am not going to go into the kind of detail the hon. Minister of Revenue was expressing hope for earlier this afternoon so he can be guided towards bringing in an effective bill; I think the appropriate time to deal with that is on the bill. I want to try to look at it in terms of the overall impact on policy, and particularly housing policy.", "Clearly, the government regarded its 50 per cent land speculation tax as the headline-grabber of the budget. But I venture the prediction that it will be the prize example of flim-flamming in a budget which is replete with it.", "In fact, Mr. Speaker, I was rather interested to note on the day of the budget, that among the material distributed to the media was a picture of a baby with his hands to his head and his tongue out, screaming, “Oops” or “Aah.” And the cutline was, “Fifty per cent?”", "Apparently the government and the whiz kids in the ministry had come to the conclusion that this depicted what they deemed to be the public reaction -- one of startled surprise. Imagine, a 50 per cent tax on land speculation! Imagine it. Well, it’s flim-flam, Mr. Speaker.", "The effectiveness of the tax, so the provincial Treasurer argues, can be judged in advance by the fact that it will result in only $25 million of revenue. The argument is that it’s going to be so effective there will be no speculation, no gains made, and therefore very little revenue will come in.", "Well Mr. Speaker, that’s as self-serving a statement as I’ve ever heard. It assumes the tax will check speculation so effectively that there won’t be revenue. But bear in mind that most of the major developers have made about $75 million each in the last year or so. So the proposition of $25 million coming in as the whole take from this tax is really rather picayune.", "In fact, there are so many exemptions granted and so many potential loopholes in this tax that the limited amount of revenue will be a measure of its ineffectiveness, not of its effectiveness." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Cassidy (Ottawa Centre)", "text": [ "That’s right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "The lawyers are going to have Roman holiday, and the developers will still be laughing all the way to the bank. In fact, the ineffectiveness of the new tax is confirmed by the relative silence with which it has been accepted by those who were supposed to be victimized by it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. Haggerty (Welland South)", "text": [ "He is right on." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "The provincial Treasurer recognizes its likely ineffectiveness himself. A number of times since the budget he’s revealed his basic concern by blustering away at the developers. “If these present proposals don’t do the trick,” says he, “then the government will resort to something else that will do it.”", "There is also the question, Mr. Speaker, of the incidence of the tax. Will it be passed on? Of course, it’s going to be passed on. Only a market that is firm enough to resist upward pressure will stop that tax being passed on, and the continuing inadequacies of the government’s housing programme will keep housing in such short supply as to keep the market bullish.", "In fact, the exemptions are so wide-ranging they’re almost certain to guarantee that speculative profits will continue to be built into land and housing prices.", "Undeveloped land and properties on which the tax would apply will simply not be sold until some loophole in the Act or its regulations can be found to provide a way out. The net result will be to slow up development at a time when the government contends that the overall objective of its policy is to accelerate development.", "As for the land transfer tax, on the surface there does not appear to be as many loopholes or exemptions. But when the lawyers have worked it over, it will be interesting to see how much of the foreign takeover of Ontario housing property and land will have been avoided. Time alone will tell the tale, so for the moment I’m simply going to reassert my doubts." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. W. Martel (Sudbury East)", "text": [ "Why doesn’t the government adopt the select committee report?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Carruthers", "text": [ "The hon. member always was a doubtful cuss." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Right. I was doubtful of the energy tax last year. And one minute later the hon. member became doubtful.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "The basic problem, Mr. Speaker, is that what the government is attempting to do in this is to regulate behaviour by a tax. And quite frankly, there is a wealth of experience to indicate that is not an effective approach.", "As the minister himself confesses, if we attempt to regulate behaviour by a tax it’s going to take us about two or three years to be able to build a tax that is effective. And this is the dilemma that the minister faces at the present time, of bringing in a bill in which he is getting advice from all quarters. He is not going to get a conclusive amount of advice so that he can have the best possible bill. He is just going to rush the thing through knowing that six months from now, in the fall or next year, we are going to revamp it, and hopefully, two or three years from now, the minister might have some idea of how a bill could be effective to regulate behaviour through taxes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. P. G. Givens (York-Forest Hill)", "text": [ "But he’s showing us he’s doing something. He’s showing that he’s doing something, that’s fair enough." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Well that’s the whole point, that’s the flim-flam." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Why doesn’t he adopt the select committee report?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "That’s the flim-flam, because he is not going to be doing it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Why don’t those people adopt the select committee report? The Minister of Housing (Mr. Handleman) was on it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "May I say to the hon. member for York-Forest Hill, the overall effect of these taxes will be to consolidate the speculative profits of the past --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "That’s right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "-- into the land and housing prices, while giving no assurance that the speculative profits of the future are going to be checked." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "That’s right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "And that adds up to nothing -- nothing." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "That’s right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Once again, we are back to the unbelievable proportions of the flim-flamming in this budget. Here where the government is presumably coming to grips with perhaps the most outrageous manifestation of inflation, it has officially embedded those speculative profits in today’s prices and it has given no real assurance that those prices won’t continue in the future. All this from a provincial Treasurer who poses as the white knight challenging the rampaging forces of inflation. You know, Mr. Speaker, it’s really quite a joke if it weren’t such a serious matter.", "However, let me get back to the important question of housing policy, which is so affected by this. Presumably these taxes were simply a means to certain ends, namely the maximization of property holdings, chiefly residential property, in Canadian hands.", "Interestingly enough neither Comay nor any of that rapid succession of ministers responsible for housing gave any attention to speculators as role players in the housing crisis. If they did, it was not done publicly. Suddenly the government has identified speculators as the bad guys. The next step is to convince the public that the bad guys are the cause of the problem; presumably that will be done through the new Minister of Housing, backed by the provincial Treasurer and the Minister of Revenue. And having convinced the public the speculators are a major cause of rapid inflation of housing prices, the government has now unveiled the speculation tax as the solution to the problem.", "As I have already suggested, experience is likely to prove that solution to be ineffective, and therefore the real bad guy emerges as this government -- this government." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "Right on." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "That’s right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "It’s the bad guy that has brought in taxation measures, frankly accepting and consolidating the scandalous inflation of the past year, as well as giving no assurance of it being halted in the future.", "But even more critical, all the statements of the new Minister of Housing, vague and vulnerable as they are, give no assurance that the overall result will be any significant increase in the new stock of housing." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "That’s right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Overall housing starts are down. The government is playing at the age-old game of housing by headlines and you can’t live in a headline." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Right on." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Givens", "text": [ "The Minister of Revenue should have stayed in bed." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Since the government has sat idly by for so long while housing costs have zoomed beyond the reach of an ever-growing majority of our people, it is left with only one alternative, a massive --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Resign!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Well yes, I suppose on second thought --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Resign!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "-- on second thought, that’s better. But for the moment I was going to be constructive on the policy point of view.", "What this government has got to do is to move into a massive public housing programme such as it has never even dreamed of considering in the past. Only in that way is it going to be able to take the upward pressure off the housing market.", "For example, it’s significant to note that in 1971, again the last year for which we have figures, the Ontario Housing Corp. owned only 0.65 per cent -- less than one per cent -- of the province’s housing stock, and rented only 5.13 per cent of it. Compare that, for example, with the situation which has traditionally existed in Europe. More than 25 per cent of Britain’s housing stock is rented from local public housing authorities. In fact that is a low estimate of the total government involvement, since it covers only public housing and in addition there is government assistance for co-op and other kinds of housing authorities.", "In other words, added to whatever this government may do by way of encouraging the private sector, this government should set itself the target of building from 25 to 40 per cent of the housing stock of this province through the OHC. Only in this way can housing be re-geared to income because it has gotten away beyond income for the majority of our people. Only in this way can the market be cooled sufficiently to dampen the fires of inflation." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Right on." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "The time has come, Mr. Speaker, to quit boasting that the OHC has a larger housing stock than all the other provinces put together. That may be true, but it is irrelevant and it does nothing either to acknowledge or to meet a need that is growing greater every day.", "Now, let me turn to the second tax where the government has felt that it had real potential for image making, namely the new resources taxes.", "Following the budget, the newspaper headlines spoke of “heavy new taxes on the mining industry.” Well, let’s get this picture back into perspective, back in touch with reality.", "The new mining revenue is forecast at a mere $50 million. That means, with this added contribution of the mining industry, as a percentage of total provincial revenues, their share will rise from 1.1 per cent last year to 1.6 per cent this year.", "This government has traditionally kept the profits of mining companies shrouded in secrecy. It’s all part of their cozy relationship with the industry. But Ontario s production represents 44 per cent of our national output and on the relatively safe assumption that Ontario’s mining profits would be at least 44 per cent of the total, the figure of $425 million for Ontario can be deduced from the Statistics Canada information’.", "But that figure, Mr. Speaker, is for 1970 -- the last year for which statistics are available. Let’s remind ourselves that the provincial Treasurer reports that Ontario’s revenues from the mines profits tax doubled in the past year from $20 million to $45 million, and one can, therefore, assume that Ontario’s mining profits have gone up from $425 million in 1970 to about $900 million -- in 1973.", "Thus it is seen that Ontario’s mines profits tax revenues represent approximately five per cent of the industry’s actual profits. And since the revenues for 1974 are forecast at $88 million, that will be approximately 10 per cent of the total profits, assuming that they hold at the 1973 level.", "So the government, despite its boost of doubling the tax on mines, is still getting only an estimated 10 per cent of the profits generated in the Province of Ontario. Well let’s get that into perspective, Mr. Speaker. Just how light that tax burden is can be judged by comparisons with other industries reported in the taxation statistics of Statistics Canada.", "The 1970 figures revealed that the taxable income of the metal mining industry was only 23.5 per cent of its book profits before taxes. The taxable income of mineral fuels was even worse, only 3.1 per cent of book profits -- something the Minister of Energy should bear in mind.", "By comparison, manufacturing has a taxable income of 64.3 per cent of book profits, and the wholesale and the retail trade about 84 per cent of book profits. Mining was only 23.5. No wonder that the Globe and Mail in its lead editorial of April 3 designated the mining industry as, and I quote: “an increasingly likely candidate for a greater share of the tax burden.” And it added that while “the provinces with NDP governments have moved first and farthest” in correcting this situation, all governments whatever their ideology are going to be forced to move in the same direction.", "Of course, in general terms there is nothing new in this. It is the NDP’s familiar corporate rip-off theme in the tax fields. Nowhere is it more flagrant than in the resources industries. The point that shouldn’t be missed in Ontario’s moves in this year’s budget is that that rip-off continues with only marginal remediation. The government has taken a little here in taxes, but granted a little there, so that the burden is only marginally greater.", "For example, the exemption levels have been doubled in mining from $50,000 to $100,000. This simply means a tax saving to small companies with profits just under $100,000 or 15 per cent of the added $50,000 exemption. In other words, a tax-saving of about $7,500.", "For example, while there has been a disallowance of the deductions of resources taxes in calculating income taxes and an end to the three-year holiday for new mines and a repeal of the mine and mill allowances in computing capital taxes, this has been significantly compensated for by an extension of the accelerated depreciation privileges.", "This raises the whole question of the government opting for a mines profits tax rather than royalties, arguing that the profits tax is fairer because it takes into account the expenses in extracting ore and consequently does not encourage the mining of high-grade", "But mining companies are allowed so many deductions from income by mining assessors, who are given a great deal of discretion under the Act, that their taxable income is a pale shadow of their operating profits. So the higher rates are applied to a very narrow base, and for that reason they produce only $50 million in revenue.", "We contend that a profits base is a poor measure as long as companies are allowed to deduct expenses, such as exploration and development, generous depreciation of assets, depletion allowances, and so on. In providing such a write-off for exploration and development, the public is really paying the companies to find the minerals and then they exploit them at very lightly taxed profits.", "The mining companies can hardly plead inability to pay. A recent Globe and Mail survey, for example, showed that metal mines profits in the fourth quarter of 1973 were up 358 per cent over the same period for 1972; for the entire year they were up 237 per cent over 1972.", "But the government’s main rationale, Mr. Speaker, for further tax concessions, not only to the mining companies but to all corporations, is that risk investment in exploration and development must be increased.", "But would these higher taxes on the mining industry mean less exploration? Not necessarily. When we permit the companies to make excess profits we have no guarantee that they will invest them in exploration in Ontario. They may invest them in a variety of other businesses, such as Noranda has done, and become a great conglomerate. They may invest abroad. In 1973 Noranda spent only 47 per cent of its exploration money in Canada; 23 per cent in Australia, 17 per cent in the USA and 13 per cent in other countries. Inco reported that exploration expenditures were made in Canada, USA, Australia, New Zealand and the Philippines; and Falconbridge reported exploration expenditures in Canada, Australia, South America, Norway and South Africa.", "The real question is whether we give the exploration money to the companies through tax concessions and let them end up controlling the reserves, to be capped and developed at their pleasure; or whether we take the same money in taxes and be sure that it is invested in Ontario. Then the people of Ontario will have control of the new-found reserves and can exploit them through a public corporation, or let the existing companies exploit them on a public utility basis, that is earn a normal rate of return for the undertaking of the work of development.", "In fact, the validity of this approach is implicitly conceded by the government itself in its announced intention to develop a Crown corporation to engage in exploration and development. If the higher taxes make it less attractive for the private sector to continue operating in this province, they will themselves clarify the role for the public corporation to step in where they drop out. In short, events are inexorably forcing even this Tory government to adopt, piecemeal, the philosophy of the NDP. It is so basic and so increasingly important that I want to restate our approach, Mr. Speaker.", "The NDP believes the natural resources of Ontario are rightfully the property of the people of Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Right on." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Our objective is to obtain full economic rent from these resources for the people. Economic rent is the value of the resources. We have let the companies walk off with most of it in the past.", "The rate and the nature of resource development should be determined by the people of Ontario and be tied in with our overall industrial strategy.", "What would an NDP government do? Briefly this:", "1. Take a more active role in exploration, development, processing, refining and distribution of our mineral resources through resource development Crown corporations;", "2. Insist that the private sector in the mineral industry must conduct its activities more consistently with overall social and economic objectives;", "3. Increase resource taxation to gain the full economic rent; substitute a production tax averaging 15 per cent from the mines’ profits and add a tax on reserves in the ground. These measures would bring in as much as $400 million a year instead of the $88 million now expected from the mines’ profits tax --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "That is where we should be getting our revenue." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Going on:", "4. In addition, obtain windfall profits resulting from scarcity, and enhance value of our natural resources through a tax based on price increases above a certain basic level;", "5. Regain ownership of all our resources and mineral rights through a combination of taxation and purchase;", "6. Increase processing of resources in Ontario; exemptions have been granted for export in such profusion that they have made a mockery of the existing legislation; only half of Ontario’s ores are processed in Canada;", "7. Develop secondary industries, based on Ontario’s resources, located as close to the resources as feasible --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "Hear, hear." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Hear, hear." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "I expected an echo of approval from the north on that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "Absolutely right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Finally:", "8. Provide compensation for individuals with small shareholdings in resource companies who are adversely affected by the implementation of these policies.", "Well, that is something of an initial reaction with regard to the resources industry, and I need not warn the hon. members in advance that I know many of my colleagues will be following through.", "I want now to deal briefly with one change which the government didn’t make, namely, dropping the sales tax on building materials.", "For years the removal of the sales tax on building materials has always been on the political agenda. But at the moment, Mr. Speaker, the situation has really become a bit ridiculous. In Ottawa, the opposition Tories are demanding that it should be removed, while the governing Liberals resist. In Toronto, the opposition Liberals are demanding that it be removed, while the governing Tories resist.", "The time has come when this perennial issue should be treated as something more than just a political ploy.", "Quite frankly, the NDP has never been a very enthusiastic proponent of the sales tax removal from building materials as the Liberals and Conservatives have been. The reasons, I suspect, are precisely those which lead Liberals and Conservatives to retain it when they are in power, even though they continue to urge its removal when they are in the opposition.", "Briefly put, those reasons are that the sales tax removal is likely to benefit the builder or developer without any reduction being passed on to the ultimate purchaser of the property." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "I agree." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Now, if old-party governments had been willing to develop effective mechanisms for isolating price components, for example in a new home, there might be some assurance that the sales tax could be passed on to the ultimate homeowner. But old-party governments have traditionally resisted the establishment of any kind of prices review board.", "If the sales tax on building materials were removed today, as federal PC leader Robert Stanfield demanded again as late as last Friday, the benefit would certainly go to some middleman.", "There are ways in which the objective of reducing costs for homeowners might be achieved. Let me suggest a couple.", "First, the sales tax on building materials could be removed on small purchases of materials, say any purchase under $100, to help people undertaking home improvements.", "Secondly, it could be covered by a rebate applied for directly by the purchaser of a new home. This would avoid windfall profits going to builders and developers and not being passed on to the ultimate home purchaser. Under these circumstances it would be possible, and I suggest desirable, that the rebate be limited to homes below a certain value, thereby fulfilling the government’s objective, with rebates and tax credits, of channelling assistance to those whose need is greatest. It would also ensure that relief did not go to commercial and industrial buildings as would happen if the tax were simply removed completely.", "The provincial Treasurer has estimated that sales tax on building materials is generating approximately $190 million in the Province or Ontario. If it were removed only for building improvement purposes, bought in limited quantities as I have suggested, or for new homes of modest values, I suspect the loss to the provincial Treasury would be limited to no more than 10 or 15 per cent of the total building materials sales tax revenue -- in other words no more than $25 million to $30 million. That, I suggest, might well be a worthy contribution to reducing costs for homeowners and the encouragement of home ownership.", "Certainly such a procedure would also avoid the encouragement of unnecessary economic activity at a time when federal fiscal policy has just boosted central bank rates to the highest in history in order, so the shapers of fiscal policy hope, to dampen the raging fires of inflation.", "While on the budget itself, Mr. Speaker, I want to deal, with a final comment, with the government’s stance with regard to the public debt. During the past year, the provincial Treasurer boasts, he has reduced the outstanding public debt by $225 million and during the coming year he expects to reduce it by another $449 million. It all sounds very impressive. The public is left, and deliberately so, with the image that the government is living within its income.", "Yet during the coming year the provincial Treasurer forecasts that expenditures will exceed revenues by some $708 million. In the budgetary tables it is noted that during the year the net debt of the province will jump from $2.94 billion to $3.56 billion -- in other words from under $3 billion to over $3.5 billion -- representing a per capita increase from $366.14 to $437.31.", "What sort of a magician have we got in our provincial Treasurer that he can be reducing public debt while increasing the net or per capita debt in this spectacular fashion? Actually, nowhere in the budget is the provincial Treasurer engaged in a more calculated flim-flamming exercise than in his misleading boast regarding the debt. The explanation as to what is happening, of course, is a simple one to be found in the distinction between public debt bonded on the open market and internal debt financed from captive pension plans like the CPP, the teachers’ superannuation fund and OMERS. To illustrate: Over the next year the government will spend beyond its revenues to the extent of $708 million. In days gone by that would have been designated as a deficit of $708 million, but during the coming year the government will benefit from a cash flow from captive pension funds to the extent of $1,044,000,000. Thus he contends that he will have surplus cash to the amount of $336 million with which he will reduce the outstanding public debt. He intends to add another $113 million by reducing cash balances -- liquid reserves -- and thereby arrives at his objective of public debt reduction of $449 million during 1974-1975.", "All of this, Mr. Speaker, may have some merit. If the interest paid on public debt is higher than that paid on pension funds, the public Treasury will benefit; except, let us note, that that simply means the public pensions are going to be subsidizing the public debt to some extent, as well as underwriting it. There could also be beneficial effects on the money market, since those repaid may turn around and lend it to others -- such as municipalities.", "However, Mr. Speaker, it is highly misleading for the provincial Treasurer to talk about a total target for debt reduction of $449 million, when he himself forecasts that the overall debt picture is going to be up by $625 million -- about the amount of the budgetary deficit. All the provincial Treasurer is doing is switching some of his debt from the public bondholders to pension fund contributors.", "In short, the people of Ontario, more directly through their Canada Pension contributions or their contributions as teachers or municipal employees, are now underwriting a growing proportion of Ontario’s public debt.", "And since they are doing it at an interest rate below the current bond market, it is time the government were frank with the people of Ontario. But being frank with the people of Ontario isn’t the objective of the flim-flam artists who now make up the Davis government.", "So, Mr. Speaker, the budget has been presented as a very rosy document; what the government deemed to be a sunshine budget after last year’s rather stormy budget. But much of the sunshine is mere glitter -- almost the false glitter of fool’s gold. It was certainly designed to provide a bright picture; and if nobody else, it captured the government members. As I indicated earlier, they were so relieved after the last two years, so much in need of a euphoric boost, that most of them haven’t come down off cloud nine yet. But along with the budget’s false glitter, buried in the accompanying papers, there is the provincial Treasurer’s own sober economic forecast for the coming year; and once again it tarnishes the budget image somewhat.", "For example, appendix C of the budget statement has a number of facts. The Treasurer paints a gloomy picture for 1974:", "1. A real growth rate of only five per cent, compared to 7.2 per cent in 1973.", "2. The unemployment rate rising to 4.5 per cent from 4.1 per cent in 1973.", "3. Employment rising at only 3.1 per cent, compared to 4.6 per cent in 1973.", "4. The labour force continuing to grow at almost the same rate as last year; Ontario has one of the highest rates in Canada.", "5. The consumer price index for Canada could rise 10 per cent or more. It rose 7.6 per cent in 1973.", "Now despite these ominous clouds on the horizon, the provincial Treasurer has no programme in his budget for increasing jobs. He anticipates there will be 21,000 more people unemployed in Ontario in 1974 than in 1973, but his budget has no compassion for them. His peroration on page 27 was an empty boast. The measures proposed in the 1974 budget befit a strong and compassionate province.", "And when you turn to corporation profits, Mr. Speaker, there is a very interesting thing. The Treasurer forecasts an increase in corporation profits before taxes of only seven per cent in 1974, after an increase of 36 per cent in 1973 and 20 per cent in 1972." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "He nearly went bankrupt in 1973." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Now while it may be difficult for the corporations to keep up the fantastic rate of profit increase that was registered in 1973, few analysts are as low as seven per cent in their forecasts of profit gains for 1974; but there is no sign of an excess profits tax.", "Maybe that’s the reason for this excessively low calculation. There’s no sign of an excess profits tax in the budget to syphon off windfall profits which the oil companies and other corporations are obtaining from the present inflation. The increased rates of mines profits tax may appear to be such, but it is well known, as I’ve already pointed out, that the mines are able to deduct so many things from their operating profits before arriving at taxable profits that there’s nothing left to apply the higher rates to. Forty per cent of nothing is still nothing.", "On housing, as mentioned elsewhere in the budget comments, the Treasurer is predicting no increase in housing starts. It’s interesting that the Minister of Housing should be attempting to contradict that public posture now. The Treasurer is predicting no increase in housing starts and only a nine per cent increase in residential construction compared to 16 per cent in non-residential. With soaring prices in rents this hardly seems a compassionate approach to home seekers.", "Finally in terms of the economic outlook is the overall stance that the government is taking. The Treasurer calls it “a neutral economic impact budget.” Members will find that on page 24. He does so on the ground that his expenditures are going up not much faster than the gross provincial product. But he predicts GPP growth for 1974 at only 13 per cent; so he’s taking more of the total product, and considerably more if he spends the $200 million for escarpment and parkway land acquisition which is not included. If included, it would raise his expenditure increase to 16.9 per cent.", "It’s not a neutral budget. It’s an inflationary budget. That’s the whole theme, the whole documentation which I have attempted to put on the record this afternoon.", "And moreover, he is not compensating the local government for the full amount of their anticipated shortfall. Mill rates are going to continue to go up.", "In short, Mr. Speaker, it’s not the kind of budget which would draw support from this side of the House. Of course, it couldn’t. It’s for that reason that I’d like to try to put on the record in summary, in addition to what has already been done by the Liberal Party, a subamendment indicating our disappointment." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "Any volunteers to second it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "What was that comment?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "Any volunteers?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "He’s got lots of volunteers." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "More than the Treasurer had last year." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Actually he had volunteers from the Tory party to second it but we turned them down.", "Mr. MacDonald moves that the amendment moved by the hon. member for Kitchener be itself amended by adding the following:", "“And this House further regrets:", "“1. The government’s failure to pass back to consumers more than a tiny fraction of the huge revenue gains in sales tax and income tax resulting from inflation;", "“2. The government’s failure to protect Ontario families from the serious effects of inflation by increasing the supply of houses, cutting gasoline taxes and establishing price and rent review boards with power to require rollbacks when justified;", "“3. The government’s failure to recognize the plight of the 60 to 65 age group many of whom are unable to find work and are forced to live on minimal fixed incomes but are denied eligibility for GAINS and the free prescription drug programme;", "“4. The government’s failure to increase grants to northern municipalities by an amount which would adequately compensate them for the increased cost of services in northern areas and their lack of financial resources to meet these needs;", "“5. The government’s failure to impose an excess profits tax on corporations which are obtaining windfall profits from world scarcities and the consequent enhanced value of their products;", "“6. The government’s failure to obtain for the people of Ontario full ‘economic rent’ from the exploitation of their natural resources and its exhibition of naivety in assuming that a $125-million return from close to $2 billion production in the mining industry is a fair share for the owners of those resources;", "“7. The government’s substitution of largely ineffective land taxes for real action in acquiring and servicing development land and bringing down prices of lots.”", "Hon. Mr. Winkler moves the adjournment of the debate.", "Motion agreed to." ] }, { "speaker": "Clerk of the House", "text": [ "The 10th order; House in committee of supply." ] } ]	April 18, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-18/hansard
ESTIMATES MINISTRY OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES (CONCLUDED)	[ { "speaker": "Mr. D. M. Deacon (York Centre)", "text": [ "In connection with the matter of community services for adults, some of those who have served their time and are on parole are faced with serious problems when they try to get employment and the employment requires bonding. We brought this matter up before and I find there is still difficulty in getting bonding on someone who has served time.", "I was wondering if the ministry would not consider setting up its own bonding service to offset the problem or in some way back up these fellows so they can get employment. There are so many jobs where bonding is required and it really restricts the opportunities for them and it impedes their getting back into the stream of activities that can assure they will stay on the right track. Can the minister comment on that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. R. T. Potter (Minister of Correctional Services)", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, the probation and parole services of the ministry have established and maintained contact with an insurance company, the Norwich Union Insurance Co. in Toronto, whereby ex-inmates of Ontario correctional institutions may be considered for bonding. There is a procedure which we go through; if you like I will read it to you.", "First of all when applying for a bond an ex-inmate must have employment confirmed in which bonding is required. Our staff contact the bonding company presently covering the employee and discuss the possibility of obtaining a bond. If the employee’s bonding company rejects the application then an application is made to Norwich Union and an interview with the applicant is then arranged.", "Our staff accompanies the applicant for the interview and they share information regarding the ex-inmate’s background with the insurance company; this is done of course with the consent of the ex-inmate. In most cases when we offer to share background information about the individual of this nature and make positive recommendations we find the bonding company will usually accept the application and grant the bond.", "There is a programme set up in co-operation with the federal Solicitor General’s department, the John Howard Society and other private aftercare agencies, and the Insurance Bureau of Canada where almost 90 per cent of applications have been accepted for bonding.", "It is important to point out that even in the private sector everyone is not accepted, so that there will be refusals but at the present time I think it’s working quite favourably there. The assistance is there. We have the arrangement with the Norwich Union Insurance Co. and, as I pointed out, 90 per cent are being accepted, I think." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "Is the percentage being accepted similar to that being accepted outside this programme, just normal applications?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "Right. That’s it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "What percentage is being rejected?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "I can’t give you the exact percentage. I think it’s a little higher than what has been accepted in the private sector." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "That speaks very well for it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "The member for Hamilton Centre." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. N. Davison (Hamilton Centre)", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, through you to the minister, could you tell me the percentage of girls at Vanier Institute who are out on temporary programmes?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "The percentage or the numbers?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Davison", "text": [ "Pardon?", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "You mean to date? This goes on, as you know, from week to week.", "The numbers vary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Davison", "text": [ "Could you tell me how many were out last year?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "Yes, I can get it for you." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "Does the minister mean at a later time?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "I think I have it right here, as a matter of fact. I’ll give it to you in a few minutes if you will wait." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "Anything further?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Davison", "text": [ "Well --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "Yes, the member for Hamilton Centre." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Davison", "text": [ "Could you tell me how many men in the last year were on temporary absence programmes?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "I have the information here as of last week, for instance.", "Mr. Chairman, as from April 1, 1973, to the end of January, 1974 -- would that be sufficient for you?", "Under the temporary absence programme application system, as of April 1, 1973, there were 101 academic applications received; 42 were activated; five were revoked. Seven were paroled by the Ontario Parole Board, six by the National Parole Board and the sentences of 31 had expired. Programmes completed; five of them completed the programme prior to their release.", "Under the vocational programme, there were 137 applications received; 63 were approved; seven were withdrawn; seven were revoked; 13 were paroled by the Ontario Parole Board; and seven by the National Parole Board; 33 were discharged because of expiration of their sentences. One completed the programme before expiration of his sentence and there are 21 presently active.", "One thousand and six applications were made for temporary absence for employment of which 494 were activated; 34 of these were paroled by the Ontario Parole Board; 31 by the National Parole Board; 361 finished their sentences and were discharged; 12 completed the programme prior to release and 84 were active in the programme at the end of January this year.", "So if we go into the totals, there were 11,239 applications received, 5,767 were approved, 141 withdrawn, 93 revoked and the others were finished. Can I send you a copy of this perhaps?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Davison", "text": [ "I wonder if you could tell me how many people were in our institutions at that time these 5,000 were approved." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "I can’t tell you the number. I will have to get that information. I will see that you get it though. It is changing daily, as you know, but I will get the information for you and get it to you." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "The member for Wellington South." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. H. Worton (Wellington South)", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, I would like to get some more advice from the minister in regard to the future operation of the abattoir at the Guelph correctional centre.", "Going back some years ago, Mr. Minister, the member for Kent (Mr. Spence) and I received considerable criticism from the packing industry about the money that was being expended on the new abattoir that was built. And, of course, now it’s the intention to turn it over to private industry to try and provide more jobs for the inmates after their release and to provide more jobs in the industry.", "But one thing has kind of concerned me, Mr. Minister. I want to say that your deputy, along with his assistants, sent a man up to explain the programme to me and to try and show the benefits that would accrue from doing this, but I would just like to be satisfied that your department has done everything possible to say, “Here, can we hire a man of our own or is there somebody on the staff there who can expand this industry without having to bring in outsiders to do it?”", "It seems to me that it has been in operation for many years and I think that if you would say, “Well, we’ll hire the right type of man who knows how to expand this operation, who can get the best work possible out of the inmates” and so on, it would avoid bringing private industry into it. I think that they were very critical of the abattoir when it was built. A number of the packing firms thought we were overdoing it in spending money, although little did they realize that people in these institutions had to be provided with some type of occupation. I would just like to be satisfied that everything has been done to try to provide a successful operation without having to go outside.", "I would also like to be assured that the people who have been providing the institution with hogs and cattle are going to have this market maintained. I have a feeling that once a large firm gets in there, they are going to start centralizing their buying and this is going to be done away with, and that was one of the issues, going back 20 years, why this was maintained.", "They were going to do away with it at one time but it provided a local market to farmers as far away as Stratford and the Guelph area. I would like to have some assurance that this is going to be maintained and that everything possible has been done to try and provide local staff who would make it a successful operation. I understand that they are handling about 60 head of cattle and 60 hogs now and I would like to know how many you feel they can turn out. No doubt you have a larger market with the number of institutions that are under your control, through the Ministry of Health, but I would like to know just how much you hope to expand this.", "You have assured us in your speech that the staff is going to be maintained and that the inmates are going to be paid a salary comparable with those working in the industry, but I would like to know if there is going to be a difference between the ones who are teaching the job and the ones who are getting paid to do the work. Who is going to be penalized in this business? The staff that’s working there now, or the inmates?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, as I pointed out before, the reason for doing this is that we want to increase the potential of the plant. We want to give more inmates an opportunity of being employed in the plant and making some money for themselves.", "It is not a question of turning the plant over to an industry. It is a question of renting the facilities to an industry and having them run it. The industry will make a commitment to hire inmates on their release in some of their other plants. It is our hope that we will not only double but we will perhaps triple the output.", "As far as the suppliers are concerned, they are going to be asked to supply more cattle to the institution than they are today, so I don’t think they need to have any worry in that area at all. We are asking them to increase production and. of course, increased production, as I said before, means increased employment for the inmates. As I mentioned in my introductory remarks, while the firm that will get the contract will be actually running the plant, we will insist on certain procedures as they relate to hiring and to pay and other things.", "When you talk about the payment that the inmates get as compared to the payment for supervision, it’s the same in any industry isn’t it? The better the job you have -- straw bosses, supervisors, section foremen and so on -- as you go up the ladder the pay increases, so I would expect that we would find the same situation here.", "I have given you all the assurance I can that we will insist that those presently employed at the institution will continue to be employed. I can only tell you that this is our intention and that we will certainly see that it is done." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Worton", "text": [ "Well, what I am getting at though is comparable rates to the industry -- we’ll say some of the packing firms. I don’t know whether the industry rates are not somewhat higher than those of the staff on full-time pay if you are going to give comparable rates." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "Again, Mr. Chairman, through you, if we are going to have comparable rates and if there is a differential then obviously it is going to have to be maintained too, isn’t it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Worton", "text": [ "As long as you do it, that’s fine." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "I see what you are suggesting. There is no way in the world that you can say we will allow the wages to be of such a nature that the supervisory staff are getting less than the men who are employed." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Worton", "text": [ "I am worried about it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "Well don’t. We’ll get in on that one." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "Anything further on vote 1402?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Worton", "text": [ "Are you sure that the packing firm which is going to receive this tender is not going to take it out of a pool rather than the individual farmers, as is the case now?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "As I said earlier, Mr. Chairman, we are asking for proposals and before any tender is accepted we will build into the tender what we want done." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Worton", "text": [ "All right. Fair enough." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "The member for Kent." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. P. Spence (Kent)", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, may I ask the minister, why wouldn’t you operate this abattoir yourselves? I would say that you are big enough and I would say that you are the most qualified to expand this business instead of rent it out to private industry." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, we have been running the plant as you have said. I spoke the other day about inviting various types of industries to come in and offer proposals so we might provide greater job opportunities and training opportunities for these people in the institutions.", "This is strictly an experiment. Perhaps we will find after we tried it that it is not going to be as successful as we hope it is. If it isn’t we certainly won’t continue it. But I think it is worth a try to show what can be done in this sector and if it is as successful as we think it is going to be, why, we have great hopes for it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "The member for Windsor-Walkerville." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman (Windsor-Walkerville)", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, I wanted to ask of the minister if the ministry funds organizations that are involved in work before the individual gets into serious difficulty.", "I specifically make mention of a group known as the Crossroads Human Growth Community back in the Essex county area, not the city area, who attempt to provide a total living environment for adolescent, drug-abusing, problem youth to enable them to establish a satisfying, productive, non-drug-dependent lifestyle.", "If something is not done for these people at that stage, you know where they are going to end up several years later if the drug itself doesn’t actually kill the individual or put him into one of our institutions.", "Would it not be of some value to your department, Mr. Minister, to maybe do a little work before the individual is actually put into one of your institutions rather than waiting for him to be placed, if you can see an organization or an association can accomplish some meaningful work in prevention rather than working after the results are known?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "As in health, Mr. Chairman, there is a terrific amount of work remaining to be done in preventive aspects. As far as my ministry is concerned, we are only involved with individuals after they are committed to one of our institutions. We are not involved at all in some of the programmes that you have been describing. I would think that these would come under the Ministry of Community and Social Services, but I agree it is an area that we should take a good look at." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, I want to ask the minister if the department assists, either financially or with other resources, organizations that attempt to help in cases where the husband or wife is in an institution and the members of their family or relatives involved band together to try to communicate with their relatives in the institutions and in that way probably assist in rehabilitating them. One of the organizations is known as Wives and Families of Offenders. I can recall attending several of their meetings in the city of Windsor. They planned trips to the various institutions where the husband or son or daughter of the individual happened to be detained. I think the work they did was extremely worthwhile because it hurried the release and the rehabilitation of the son, daughter or loved one." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, we don’t allocate any funds to these organizations. As I mentioned earlier in my comments, we have over 2,000 volunteers who are assisting, particularly from the Junior League, the John Howard Society, the Elizabeth Fry Society and so on, but we don’t actually fund any of the organizations that the member is describing." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "Shall vote 1402 carry?", "Vote 1402 agreed to.", "On vote 1403:" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "Vote 1403, rehabilitation of juveniles programme." ] }, { "speaker": "Mrs. M. Campbell (St. George)", "text": [ "On vote 1403 I would like to make some general remarks and to ask some general questions on this particular matter.", "First of all, on the question of this whole juvenile programme, could the minister advise us now as to whether further consideration has been given to the transfer of this programme from the Ministry of Correctional Services to the Ministry of Community and Social Services?", "I feel that there is a great deal to be done in the whole area of rehabilitation. Perhaps the $13 million which we would then have from the federal government could be used for this purpose. And it might be more effective than it seems to me it is now.", "I would like to hear what the minister can tell us now about the experience of the Oakville assessment centre, particularly having in mind the statement in the Throne Speech that indicates there is a policy that these young people shall be in training schools closer to home.", "I would like to know whether that is now an absolute policy or whether any consideration can be given to giving juveniles the opportunity for new experiences, particularly outside of major urban centres, so that they could perhaps break away from some of the lifestyle that they have had established.", "I would like to have the answer on the basis of whether or not such a policy would be proposed for the benefit of the child or for the benefit of the parents.", "Finally, at this stage, I would like to know to what extent this ministry is going to enlarge the programme of probational services where we will have persons who can communicate with the parents of these young people, as probation officers must do if they are going to do the total job, in the language of the parents.", "As you know there are great gaps in this service. I understand that your predecessor was concerned about it, particularly in Toronto. I would like to know whether there is a policy or whether it will continue on an ad hoc basis as pressure may be applied from communities to involve the various ethnic groups in the probation services, other than as volunteers." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman concerning the first question as it relates to transfer to Community and Social Services, in my comments when I introduced my estimate, I spoke about section 8. I don’t think the member for St. George was here. I referred to one aspect of the Training Schools Act, which is a very contentious issue -- as a matter of fact, she and I have spoken about this before -- under which children who haven’t committed any crime are committed to an institution.", "Around 43 or 45 per cent of children coming into our institutions come in under section 8. I feel very strongly about this, as do many of my colleagues. We’re taking a look at it now to be sure. There has always been the argument that if you don’t do it this way, what’s going to happen to them because there is nothing set up under any other ministry or any other section by which they can be dealt with? We just don’t accept that.", "We are now exploring ways to make sure that these children can be looked after. I think they can be, quite adequately. If the agencies that are responsible for that today aren’t prepared to look after them, then perhaps we should make some changes there. I’m hopeful that we will be able to bring in the recommendation that section 8 be removed from the Act. At the present time, we’re looking at it very, very carefully.", "As far as funding is concerned, again it is the same thing that we were running into in the Health Ministry with funding on many of our programmes. We don’t get any cost-sharing here with this, but we have been assured by the federal government that by the end of this year they will make arrangements that we will get funding to assist in this programme.", "The member spoke about the Oakville Training Centre. Details haven’t been finalized but we are going along with the regionalization that we spoke about before. It is being developed. Our intention at the present time is to keep the child as near home as possible, whenever it is possible. There are times when it just isn’t possible to keep a child in his own environment. It is our intention to examine the role of the Oakville centre at the present time as part of our regionalization studies to see how effective it is. We are now in the process of doing this.", "We’re concerned, too, about expansion of our parole system and our parole officers. At the present time, we have one Portuguese-speaking individual to whom we have offered a position as a probation and aftercare officer --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mrs. Campbell", "text": [ "I think I might have had something to do with that." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "-- I think probably you did -- and we are hopeful that we’ll be able to expand this. I believe at the present time he has a commitment until June with another organization. Again, you are probably more familiar with this than I am, but we are hopeful that he will accept this position and that will be a beginning, and then we will be able to get people working with our ministry who can talk their own language, so to speak, and not just interpret." ] }, { "speaker": "Mrs. Campbell", "text": [ "Excuse me. May I have a supplementary?", "I am still concerned, and I would like the minister to elaborate, on this matter of keeping the child in a facility close to his or her home as an absolute principle. I think there are many cases when this is quite proper and quite correct, but I believe that there are equally so many cases where the child is in deep trouble because of the home environment or because of the school environment, that is, the children with whom he comes in contact, particularly if he is a member of an ethnic group. Sometimes, because they are lonely, they have a gap between them and their parents, they are seeking to have some communication with school mates and they get into some pretty serious problems because of it. But when you spoke I was concerned that you seemed to be saying that this was a principle. I would like to see some flexibility in that situation if the minister would comment." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "No, that is not an absolute policy, Mr. Chairman. We too agree. I couldn’t agree with you more wholeheartedly. But in many, many instances we try to accommodate people if we can, and if they want them in their own area, and we consider it is in their best interests if they go there, then we try to do it. We aren’t always able to do that but we try to.", "On the other hand, as you have just pointed out, there are equally as many cases where it’s in the child’s best interests not to put them in their local environment. Then, by the same token, we attempt then to try to put them in an area that is best suited to them and try to put them where the training is of the nature that is best suited to their specific" ] }, { "speaker": "Mrs. Campbell", "text": [ "Thank you." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "The member for Windsor-Walkerville." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, I want to encourage the minister -- in follow-up to a question of my colleague -- in the use of more and more people who are familiar with more than just the English language, who can speak Polish, Ukrainian, Hungarian -- you name it. In certain communities, for example in the Toronto area, the Italian community is extremely strong, and I think the probation officers wherever possible should have the ability to be able to converse in more than just the one language, because it is a real asset in the whole approach to rehabilitation.", "One of the problems really is communication, and if you have someone who can communicate with an individual in his native tongue, you know how much easier it is. I find myself very fortunate in being able to speak almost half a dozen different languages, and as a result I can communicate with people that you, Mr. Minister, might have difficulty with. I think it would be to the advantage of the ministry if, where possible, they do employ people who are multilingual; not that they should be multilingual, but wherever possible employ multilingual as opposed to unilingual people." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "Yes, Mr. Chairman, I mentioned a few minutes ago the Portuguese officer. We also have one Italian probation officer and we have one German. One of the problems that we have run into is the standards that are required by the Civil Service Commission, and just recently the Civil Service Commission agreed that it would lower some of its qualifications as they relate to immigrant applicants.", "I would go a step further, with all due respect, and suggest that it is not just a multilingual probation officer that we require. I think it’s fine to have someone who can speak their language, but I think it’s much better if it’s one of their own countrymen who they can relate to. I think they can relate to them much easier.", "If I could speak Portuguese and talk to them they’re not going to pay as much attention to me as they are to one of their own countrymen. They can sit down and talk, not about their own problem here, but some of their own family problems, living conditions, conditions in Portugal and so forth." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "What you say, Mr. Minister, is absolutely true and it would be ideal if we could come along and get that type of individual. I know it’s difficult in many cases.", "I notice that the Toronto police department now is looking at the various ethnic groups in the community. They know that the individual, such as you made mention of, a countryman, is always on a better communicative level than is someone who can simply speak the language as a result of university training, or high school training, or even as a result of association with the various ethnic communities.", "I think the civil service may have to look at that as an added requirement. I don’t think we should downgrade the qualifications of the individual, but I think that, where all things are equal and the individual is conversant in more than one language, there should be some type of preference in that area." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)", "text": [ "May I just say a word about this? I can appreciate the point being made by the members, about having people whose ethnic background will allow them to communicate with others. But surely the answer isn’t to have this great number of people in every ministry that deals with people -- Community and Social Services, Health, Correctional Services and so on. In other words, you can’t hire people in every ministry to do that. What the government has to do is to have a policy whereby there are ethnic centres in every major community and the ethnic centres have within them people who speak the language and who have an ethnic background, who can be used by any of the ministries in communicating with people of an ethnic origin, the first generation ethnic people.", "I’m really reluctant to see the sort of build-up of bureaucracy that would occur if every ministry had to hire people all of different ethnic tongues. I think what should be done is that there should be a coming together of all the ministers under the Provincial Secretary for Social Development (Mrs. Birch), and each major community should have within it a centre where there are people available who would not only speak the language but understand the ethnic backgrounds of the community itself, so that the Correctional Services Ministry, or the Community and Social Services Ministry, or the Health Ministry, or any other ministry that deals primarily with the affairs and problems of people, could call upon that centre and have a person made available to them who could communicate and who could develop a relationship.", "I don’t happen to think that the aftercare work is so specialized. I think it’s very much a problem of the ability to communicate, a feeling of people for people. I think there is --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mrs. Campbell", "text": [ "It is specialized work." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "I don’t know. I’ve done a little bit of it, too, and I want to tell you that I don’t think it’s any more specialized than in Community and Social Services dealing with the breakup of a home and trying to come to grips with the emotional and background problems that arise in that kind of a situation. I think that there could well be some setup whereby there would be people available, without having each ministry burgeoning to the point where there would be far too many civil servants in a bureaucracy we couldn’t afford." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, I agree with the hon. member that the type of facility he’s speaking about would be a wonderful thing for information purposes. But we’re dealing with two different things here.", "I just can’t accept that we’re talking about the same thing when we’re talking about how practical it would be for aftercare and supervision of probationers. I think this is a very, very important aspect of Correctional Services, and I’m sure the member for St. George can perhaps give us some of her views on this, because she has been very, very actively involved in it.", "But when we’re talking about employing probation officers of various ethnic backgrounds, let us remember that this isn’t going to be in every community, in every city in Ontario, because it’s not necessary. But there are areas, particularly in the large metropolitan areas, where there is a need -- in fact, there is a great need -- for a probation officer in this specific case." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "In every single major municipality there is a need." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "No, I can’t agree with that; there isn’t." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "In Windsor there is a need; in Hamilton there is a need; in Toronto there is a need --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "The hon. member for St. George." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "-- in Sudbury there is a need, because there are large ethnic communities there." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "Order, please." ] }, { "speaker": "Mrs. Campbell", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, I sympathize with what has been said. I am not one who supports a large bureaucracy, but when it comes to the matter of probation services -- and I must confess that on the whole my experience with probation services was far more satisfactory than my experience with aftercare. I think they were two different things. The quality of concern also was different in the two. And I hope that in aftercare we will perhaps improve that element.", "Speaking of specific cases in terms of aftercare programmes, it was very interesting for me to note how many times a boy, for example, would be in trouble because of having too much time on his hands. The aftercare worker wasn’t concerned, for example, about the boy not being in school or not having any kind of a programme. In one specific case he knew the boy was spending his time at large in the community without any kind of schedule and presumably would and in fact did get into further trouble.", "On the matter of probation services, though -- and I can’t answer at all as to the caseload of probation officers, although I know the Italian probation officers are very busy -- I can’t see how we could give other functions to most of them in the way in which it has been suggested, otherwise they would not perform the function which is of primary importance between the child and the family and the child and the community.", "The other matter I want to speak to is what the minister said about section 8 applications. The minister knows this is a matter of the gravest concern to anyone functioning in the family court. But I was a little puzzled by his remarks: “If the organization can’t look after them then we must change the organizations.” That, I understand, is what he said.", "I would like to point out that the Children’s Aid Societies, for example, are of the first line in this kind of a situation; and it is only when they, plus the parents or the guardians, come forward and say they are totally unable to look after this child and there is in fact no other facility in the community that can look after this child, that a judge, very reluctantly and with the gravest sense that it is a lack of facility of this government as an alternative, may and does, as the minister suggests, place a child in a training school.", "Of course, there are all sorts of other things. Sometimes a child is too young to be guilty of an offence but may be quite a danger to the community. I can remember one seven-year-old arsonist; it is a little difficult to know how to handle a situation like that with no alternative facilities.", "The position of the Children’s Aid Societies, with their group homes -- and they have great trouble with group homes in trying to get staff -- their position often is, can they afford to take this one child in and perhaps lose the advantage of the work we have been able to do with eight or nine others in the same facility? I would not like to stand here or to sit here and have the impression abroad that the Children’s Aid are somehow at fault if they cannot handle all of these children. I would hope that there would be greater facilities than we presently have for children of this kind who are deeply disturbed.", "I would like to hear the minister -- if I made a mistake in what he said, of course I would apologize for it, but if that is what he said I would like him to tell me in what way the Children’s Aid should be able to function in these areas where they are not already functioning.", "Thank you, Mr. Chairman." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, in my opening comments I said that we were exploring the abolition of section 8." ] }, { "speaker": "Mrs. Campbell", "text": [ "Yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "We certainly have no intention of recommending that it be abolished unless we are convinced that alternative arrangements can be made to look after these children. I wasn’t referring to any specific group or any specific society when I said they were unable to look after them. What I am saying is that as a society ourselves if we are unable to look after them we have to find some better way of doing it. I want to make sure that that is arranged before we start saying let’s abolish this section." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "Is vote 1403 carried?", "Vote 1403 agreed to." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "This completes the study of the estimates of the Ministry of Correctional Services.", "Hon. Mr. Winkler moves the committee rise and report.", "Motion agreed to.", "The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the committee of supply begs to report it has come to certain resolutions and asks for leave to sit again.", "Report agreed to." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, before I adjourn the House for the day, I would like to say as previously announced that tomorrow and through Monday we will be dealing with items No. 9, 8 and 6 on the order paper in that order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I wonder if, before the adjournment motion is put, I may ask the House leader whether he doesn’t think that, since the Minister of Revenue (Mr. Meen) has indicated there will be substantial amendment to at least one of the bills he has called, we shouldn’t debate the principle of the bill until after we see the amendments? In fact, the principle of the bill may well be considerably different after it has been amended in committee if the amendments are as substantial as the minister has indicated they will be.", "I’m not suggesting for a moment that we not proceed but I do think that if there are to be amendments of the type indicated or if they are likely to be forthcoming, for us to continue with the debate on the principle of the bill, not knowing what the principle itself may well turn out to be, is not in keeping with the rules of the House." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am quite sure the fears of the hon. member will be allayed. I think in calling the legislation as I have called it, bringing Bill 26 forth first, we may well solve that problem before we reach the second order.", "Hon. Mr. Winkler moves the adjournment of the House.", "Motion agreed to.", "The House adjourned at 5:10 o’clock, p.m." ] } ]	April 18, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-18/hansard
BANK OF CANADA RATE INCREASE	[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon (Leader of the Opposition)", "text": [ "Minister of Housing, who obviously has one of the more important portfolios these days. Has his staff given him any estimation as to the effect of the unprecedented increase of one per cent in the prime lending rate established by the Bank of Canada on the costs of housing in this province?", "Is there a possibility that the government of Ontario will undertake some sort of a mitigating programme either through the Province of Ontario Savings Office or perhaps by using new federal legislation allowing provinces to have a direct interest in banking concerns, to offer some sort of assistance to individual home buyers, whereby these lending rates are not going to have the bad effect on housing that they may very well have?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. S. B. Handleman (Minister of Housing)", "text": [ "There are a number of questions there, Mr. Speaker. In response to the first part of the question, my staff started to work on it this morning. I expect to have an answer from them within a day or two as to the total impact of the Bank of Canada’s move.", "On the whole, I suppose we have to say that the Bank of Canada in acting to restrain the monetary supply is taking one of the classical attacks on inflation. It hasn’t worked in the last couple of years, and there is some doubt in my mind as to whether it will work in the future. As for the province entering directly into mortgage financing and subsidizing mortgages, we will certainly have to take a look at that after we’ve examined the impact of the Bank of Canada move." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Supplementary: Has the minister any contingency plans, based on the work that has been done by himself and his predecessors since the ministry was set up, to provide some sort of provincial programme to meet the needs of the people in this province in the face of the high costs of capital associated with housing, rather than simply fit ourselves in with the programme as it extends across Canada? Does he have such contingency plans now?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "As the hon. member well knows, there is a preferred lending programme in Ontario which has money available at 8 3/4 per cent for certain income groups. That is the only plan that I know of at the present time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)", "text": [ "A supplementary question: Is it the intention of the minister to extend the range of incomes for which this preferred interest rate is available, in order to try to offset not only the increase that is likely to come because of the Bank of Canada move, but the ever-increasing increases that we are seeing every week in any event?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a meeting arranged with the Minister of State for Urban Affairs on April 24 and at the top of our agenda is a discussion on the integration of the assisted home ownership plan of the federal government and the preferred lending programme of the provincial government to make sure that a wide range of in- come earners is covered by these two programmes." ] } ]	April 16, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-16/hansard
HOUSING PROGRAMMES	[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I have a question, Mr. Speaker, of the same minister relating to his statements over the weekend about the lack of co-operation from municipalities around Metropolitan Toronto in fulfilling the housing action programme, leading Mayor Margaret Britnell, for example, to say the Housing Minister has “completely lost his marbles.”", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Can the minister give any specific instances where municipalities have failed to co-operate with the provincial ministry, or would he in fact agree that it has been red tape that has held up the approvals that the municipalities have had before the provincial government these many months?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Tell them about Mel Lastman in today’s paper." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, despite a number of bitter experiences during my life, I think I am going to continue to be accessible to and communicative with the media. I have great faith in their integrity in interpreting what people say to them." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. F. Foulds (Port Arthur)", "text": [ "Unlike the Premier (Mr. Davis)." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Unfortunately, space requirements do not permit them to publish everything that is said and, with my lack of articulation, I suppose I wasn’t able to get across to the reporter from the Star --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. V. M. Singer (Downsview)", "text": [ "Does the minister say that he has any marbles to lose." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "-- that I didn’t mention lack of co-operation, nor did I say that there was any obstructionism. As for losing my marbles, I don’t know that I ever had any." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Cassidy (Ottawa Centre)", "text": [ "We had some doubts, too." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. A. J. Roy (Ottawa East)", "text": [ "He’ll get along well in the cabinet." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "What I did say, Mr. Speaker, was that I was expressing the same type of frustration which is expressed on the opposite side of the House at the lack of progress. Perhaps I am not as diplomatic as I should be." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. C. MacDonald (York South)", "text": [ "The minister will learn." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Perhaps blunt speaking is not the right thing for this portfolio. But I felt, having made tremendous progress in certain aspects of our housing action programme and very little progress in getting municipal agreement to specific propositions, that I should draw to the attention of the press not that they were being unco-operative but that perhaps they weren’t moving as fast as we would like them to." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Grey-Bruce has a supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. Sargent (Grey-Bruce)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that the minister has $11 million in the budget for helping unserviced lots and he plans 110,000 housing starts, has he met with the Minister of the Environment (Mr. Auld) to question him on the fact that this will only provide 2,000 lots and we will be 98,000 lots short? What is the minister going to do about it? Is he going to meet with the Minister of the Environment and resolve this or what?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the amount has been mentioned before in this House, and of course we are again talking about an amount in the Ministry of Environment’s estimates for assistance in sewers and water services. What we have in our ministry is $20 million in our housing action programme facilitating fund, and this is what we are asking the municipalities to come and get. We have asked them to come and get a piece of that action." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Ottawa Centre." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Could the minister tell us, in view of his comments over the weekend, what is the exact number of the several thousand lots he has hoped to get and how many does he now hope to get through the housing action programme, thanks to the difficulties that he is having with municipalities." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "My hopes have not been dashed, Mr. Speaker. I still hope to have the same X thousands of lots that we were talking about, and hopefully I will be in a position to make that announcement to the hon. member when I get a municipal agreement on paper." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Downsview," ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, does the minister not realize that his stupid diatribe against the municipalities is obviously an effort to shift the blame and that the municipalities cannot build houses by themselves unless they have money to provide services?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. R. Smith (Hamilton Mountain)", "text": [ "Look around you. Look around you." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "What is the minister going to do about putting the municipalities in the position where they can supply services?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, that is exactly what we propose to do with our housing action facilitating fund." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "With $11 million? Baloney." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "There is $20 million. It is available not only for hard service infrastructure but for soft service --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "-- and we are quite prepared to sit down and discuss grant negotiations with the municipalities --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "He doesn’t blame Ottawa, he blames the municipalities." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "-- and hopefully that will be right away." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "When is the minister going to accept responsibility himself?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "There was no diatribe against the municipalities. I simply commented on the situation --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order. The Leader of the Opposition, further questions?" ] } ]	April 16, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-16/hansard
UNION GAS	[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I have a question of the Premier, in the absence of the Minister of Labour (Mr. Guindon): Has he been kept informed as to the circumstances attending the continuing strikes involving the employees and the management of Union Gas whereby gas has been shut off in certain communities, there has been an exchange of gunfire in one community and in one recent incident the pressure regulators have been tampered with, resulting in an increase in pressure which could have resulted in some violent explosions if in fact safety equipment had not been functioning properly? Is he satisfied with the role played by the Ministry of Labour in trying to reach a solution to this problem, or is he as concerned as I and other citizens in the areas affected are, that we are going to have to take some remedial steps for the safety of the citizens involved?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. G. Davis (Premier)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I think we demonstrated the government’s concern some weeks ago when we made it very clear that the personnel of the OPP would be made available to see that there were no dangers. I must confess I haven’t discussed it with the Minister of Labour today. I shall, probably before the day is done. I can only say that the government is concerned about the possibility of danger or other matters occurring with respect to this strike. I would also say, Mr. Speaker, that everybody would like to see it finished and there is no question in my mind that the minister and the ministry, to the extent that it is possible, are devoting their very considerable talents to this objective." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] } ]	April 16, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-16/hansard
POTATO SUPPLIERS	[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "With your permission, Mr. Speaker, a question of the Minister of Agriculture and Food: Has he made himself aware of the stories printed in the Globe and Mail over the weekend indicating collusion among the main potato suppliers in the Metropolitan Toronto area, which in fact appears to be an established cartel involving not only the ordinary wholesale companies but in association with Mr. Joseph Burnett, whose name was recently mentioned in this House in connection with laundering money? Is he aware that this situation is traceable back to the similar situation in 1968 when the minister’s food council examined the matter and found payments, something called payola, which in fact acted for the restraint of free competition?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. A. Stewart (Minister of Agriculture and Food)", "text": [ "No, Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of it. I have not seen the story but I will make myself as aware as possible of it and look into it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Supplementary: Will the minister look into it in conjunction with the Minister for Consumer and Commercial Relations who might have some special regulatory powers in this regard? Since the food council is concerned, will the Minister of Agriculture and Food report to the House on the matter?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I will certainly look into this situation and what I have to report will be based upon what we find." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Shulman (High Park)", "text": [ "Supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon member for High Park." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "In view of the many threats to these potato growers who are foolish enough to attempt to compete with Mr. Burnett, would the minister also refer that matter to the Solicitor General (Mr. Kerr) to see if charges can be laid?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "As I say, Mr. Speaker, I will look into it. I will make no attempts to offer to do anything until I find out what the facts of the matter are." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Wentworth." ] } ]	April 16, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-16/hansard
HOUSING PROGRAMMES	[ { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Housing. How does the Minister of Housing explain his statement that there is progress being made in Ontario in the housing field against the backdrop of an overall decline in the number of housing starts in Ontario in February and March of this year over last year?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Over February and March of last year? Mr. Speaker, I have examined the housing starts and in February and March they seemed to be up over last year. I would have to examine the figures again and check out the hon. member’s assumption, because I did look at the figures just this morning and they appeared to me to indicate a slight decrease in multiple-dwelling units and a large increase in single-family housing." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Whatever happened to the speeding up of the process?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Wentworth." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "I will wait for an answer to come back from the minister." ] } ]	April 16, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-16/hansard
ACTIONS OF REAL ESTATE AGENTS	[ { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Can I ask the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Affairs whether he intends to take some action to strengthen the Real Estate Act to ensure that persons who are dealing in the purchasing of housing and who are in fact real estate agents inform prospective buyers or sellers that they are acting on behalf of a real estate agency rather than a private buyer?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. J. T. Clement (Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations)", "text": [ "I am sorry. I don’t understand the import of the member’s question, Mr. Speaker. Agents invariably act on behalf of the vendor. There are exceptions to that arrangement but --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Let me refer the minister to the Toronto Sun article of the weekend, in which it was stated by a speculator in housing that, among a number of the manipulations that are going on, there is a failure on the part of real estate agents to inform prospective sellers that they, the agents, are not acting on behalf of purchasers but rather on behalf of real estate companies; and that, in fact, they are acting as a middleman -- buying, inflating the price, and then selling the property off again. What action does the minister propose to take to try to put a stop to this particular speculation?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "An agent acting on behalf of any vendor must by law notify that vendor if he is acting on behalf of any other interested party. If he’s buying on his own behalf or on behalf of another client he must disclose that. If he doesn’t disclose that, he forfeits his commission as well as giving grounds for the lifting of his licence. There are cases pending of a similar nature to that right now, and we prosecute them vigorously.", "I think the member’s colleagues who are familiar with the practice of law will assure him that that is a very serious breach of the Act itself, and we won’t tolerate that type of activity by any real estate agent or broker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Is it the intention of the minister to investigate the content of the story to determine the validity of the claim by the real estate agent to ensure that this act will be stopped in Ontario at this time to cut down the cost of housing?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I’m not familiar with the particular story to which the hon. member makes reference. But I’m sure my staff will take a look at it. I’ll make a note to have it drawn to their attention." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Wentworth." ] } ]	April 16, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-16/hansard
WARRANTY ON NEW HOMES	[ { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "I’d like to ask the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations whether it’s his intention to institute a homeowner’s warranty during this year, recognizing that what has been offered by the construction industry is not going to be satisfactory, and that Mr. Basford, frankly, seems to be dragging his heels?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I think it’s incumbent upon this government to implement some form of warranty programme. If no federal programme which is acceptable to us is forthcoming -- and that appears to be the trend in which we are moving -- then I think we have no alternative but to implement some type of warranty programme. I should point out to the House, Mr. Speaker, that I will be meeting in about three weeks’ time with all the consumer ministers across Canada, and this is one of the matters that we have on the agenda as to a provincial programme for each and every province." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. A. Renwick (Riverdale)", "text": [ "We can’t wait that long." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Why doesn’t the minister accept the member for York-Forest Hill’s private bill?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. P. G. Givens (York-Forest Hill)", "text": [ "Does the minister accept my bill?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "I have one final question, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "What’s the member’s name?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Wentworth is asking questions on behalf of the New Democratic Party.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Would the minister read his bill?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Yes." ] } ]	April 16, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-16/hansard
SALE OF COLZA OIL	[ { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "I have one final question of the Minister of Health. Has the Minister of Health been made aware of the ban in Italy on the sale of colza oil? It’s a vegetable oil used as a substitute for olive oil. Is the minister aware that similar types of oils are sold in Ontario, and will he order that they be examined to determine whether similar kinds of side effects might not be occurring from the sale and use of colza oil in Ontario?", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "That’s a good question." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. F. S. Miller (Minister of Health)", "text": [ "The member said it for me.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "In all seriousness, Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of that oil, but I will be pleased to look into it in case there is some potential risk to the people of Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Ask Mackey.", "Interjections by hon, members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Supplementary question: May I send the minister a bottle of the oil to have it examined?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "What are the side effects?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. J. R. Rhodes (Minister of Transportation and Communications)", "text": [ "Is that guaranteed?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "I would not accept it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "And let me, by way of a supplementary question, ask the minister whether he’s aware that it also goes under the name of rapeseed oil, and it has been claimed that it causes sterility?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Show us the bottle. That could have come from Morty’s private stock!" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "That’s of great concern to us." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "I was going to suggest, Mr. Speaker, that he should try some.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "I recognize it under its old name much better." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Does the hon. member for Wentworth have further questions?" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Make sure it’s in the bottle one is supposed to send to his doctor." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Minister of Colleges and Universities has the answer to a question asked previously." ] } ]	April 16, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-16/hansard
PUBLIC SERVICE ACT CONFLICT	[ { "speaker": "Hon. J. A. C. Auld (Minister of Colleges and Universities)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I was so wrapped up in that bit about the oil that I hope you won’t think this is a slippery answer." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "It would not be the first time either." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Auld", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I’d like to reply to a question raised by the hon. member for Kitchener (Mr. Breithaupt).", "In 1971-1972, Dr. D. T. Wright received $39,863 in remuneration from the Ministry of Colleges and Universities while acting in the capacity of chairman of the Committee on University Affairs. Dr. Wright did not receive any other salary or per diem payments through this ministry or any other ministry. The other figures referred to by the hon. member were not received by Dr. Wright, and this fact was specifically set out in the Provincial Auditor’s report for 1972-1973.", "The hon. member asked, at the same time, whether Dr. Wright received benefits for consulting work done on the structural steel contract at Ontario Place. In his university work, prior to becoming chairman of the Committee on University Affairs, which I may say is not a civil service position, Dr. Wright specialized in the theory of structures, gaining an international reputation for the design of space frame structures. The architectural design of the dome theatre and forum at Ontario Place called for such a structure. An Ontario firm won the contract and, in turn, asked Dr. Wright to advise it on some special aspects relating to the strength and security of the building. For his specialist work in this connection he received a professional fee from that firm." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications has the answer to a question asked previously." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Nickel Belt (Mr. Laughren) had asked the question. In his absence, I will wait until he returns." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Ottawa East was first." ] } ]	April 16, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-16/hansard
PROVINCIAL SECRETARIATS	[ { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Premier. I wonder if the Premier would comment on an article in the Ottawa newspaper last week referring to statements by the former policy secretary, the member for Carleton East (Mr. A. B. R. Lawrence) and the former policy secretary, the member for St. George." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "The former member for St. George (Mr. A. F. Lawrence)." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "The member for Carleton East stated that the policy secretariats didn’t work because they were too efficient; they built up too much momentum; and they threatened to overrun the traditional thinking in the party in the Conservative caucus." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Thinking?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "The former member for St. George stated that in theory secretariats were good, but they went off the rails because of personality clashes. Now I wonder if the Premier agrees with these comments." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Is this of urgent public importance?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am certainly delighted to answer that question of urgent public importance, which is typical of the --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "The government is wasting a million bucks." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "-- questions from the member for Ottawa East.", "Mr. Speaker, really if you assess what has happened since the rather innovative approach here with the development of the policy field secretariats, from a very personal standpoint I think they have worked very well." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "The Premier is the only one who thinks it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Well I can too! There is one difference, Mr. Speaker, between myself and the members across the House. I happen to know how they are working; they don’t." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "The Premier is the only one; nobody else does.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I think, Mr. Speaker, now that I have been asked, I will just take a few minutes to outline some of their functions in that --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Yes, well, that is not what the Premier’s colleague said." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "-- obviously it is a matter of urgent public importance. As for the former member for St. George, a very able member of the cabinet, a very excellent constituency person, who moved on to the federal arena where he will, I would think some time in the not too far distant future, become a member of the government in Ottawa --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)", "text": [ "Is that after the Premier becomes the leader?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "-- I think it is fair to state that knowing that individual as well as I do --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "The Premier can go up there and he can come down here." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Well, I am very flattered that the member for Downsview thinks I might have the capacity to go up there. I really find that I have my hands full here, particularly from the member for Downsview. He keeps me mentally stimulated all the time. I would hate ever to move and miss his contributions." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Well, I am glad. I enjoy the Premier’s baiting." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I knew the member would be glad. I could sense the frustrations of the former Provincial Secretary for Justice from time to time. I would say this about the observations made by the former provincial secretary for the resource field who, in my view, is one of the very able people in political and public life in this province, that he made a very --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "A little late for that kind of patronizing." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "-- a very excellent contribution --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, if the member for Ottawa wherever it is and the Islands wants to interject that the hon. member has left the executive council, one of the great things about the party I happen to lead is that we recognize and are prepared to make changes when we feel the time has come.", "I fully appreciate that the member for Ottawa and the Islands envisages himself in the vacant seat of the leader of that party but I will be so bold as to make a prediction that it will never happen because he doesn’t have the capacity to do it. He just doesn’t have it.", "In fact, I will go a step further --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I don’t think any of his caucus colleagues do either. I tell members the former Provincial Secretary for Resources Development had so much more talent and ability and commitment to public life in this province that the member for Ottawa and the Islands really has a great deal of nerve to mention his own contribution here in this House and I make no bones about it.", "I think it is also fair to state. Mr. Speaker, and I have made this observation before, one of the limiting factors which we think is slowly changing in the role of the provincial secretary is not internally with the decision-making process. The difficulties we have encountered, and I think this would be shared by everybody who has held that particular responsibility, are the political perceptions of their responsibilities not just here in the House, where one doesn’t expect a completely objective viewpoint in any event, but as far as the general public is concerned." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "It is not working and the Premier knows it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "We think this is in the process of change but as far as the functioning of government is concerned, in their contribution to cabinet and the development of policy, I can only say, Mr. Speaker, it works extremely well." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Sandwich-Riverside." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have just a short supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "If we can depend on a short supplementary answer perhaps we can permit it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "My question was short; it was his answer that was long.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "In light of the fact --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I will tell the member, if he is not satisfied, I am not going to be here at 6 o’clock." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "See that? He is interrupting me again. Order, Mr. Speaker, please.", "Mr. Speaker, to the Premier, in light of the fact that we are going to vote something like $1 million in estimates for these three superministries, the policy secretariats, doesn’t the Premier feel he should level with the people of Ontario, save us $1 million and do away with them? Isn’t it apparent to him that he is the only one who doesn’t realize they are not working?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, not only is it not apparent to me, I would say with respect --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "He is the only one." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "-- it is not apparent to those who are involved in the process." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "What do they say here?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "If the hon. member wishes to vote against them and to be critical of them because he doesn’t have the capacity to recognize change in administration, he can be my guest." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "What do they say?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, would you consider adding two minutes to the question period to compensate for the diversion of the Premier in attacking my colleague here when he was answering a question there?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)", "text": [ "What is the member doing himself?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I usually do consider the length of the statement. I did not in that particular case think it was an exceptionally long reply to the provocative question.", "The hon. member for Sandwich-Riverside." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "It was only irrelevant." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "The question was relevant." ] } ]	April 16, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-16/hansard
EMPLOYMENT OF HANDICAPPED PEOPLE	[ { "speaker": "Mr. F. A. Burr (Sandwich-Riverside)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, a question of the Minister of Labour regarding his interest in drafting legislation which would require large employers to provide a certain percentage of jobs for handicapped and disabled persons. Could the minister give us a progress report?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. F. Guindon (Minister of Labour)", "text": [ "Yes, Mr. Speaker, I know that my hon. friend from Sandwich-Riverside has shown a very keen interest in the last couple of years in handicapped people in this province. We have had a number of discussions. I had promised the hon. member that, if at all possible, I would like to consult the labour department in Great Britain. Unfortunately, because of the political climate and because of the election which took place, I was unable to go to London, England, but I do propose to do so at the first opportunity." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Windsor- Walkerville has a supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman (Windsor-Walkerville)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, may I ask of the minister if he is recommending to his cabinet colleagues that they adopt the same principle insofar as the civil service is concerned?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, we are giving this matter very serious consideration.", "I had hoped, as I said, to visit some of the countries where this is being done. Whenever I have a real study made of the situation here in Ontario, I’ll be glad to make recommendations." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Grey-Bruce." ] } ]	April 16, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-16/hansard
ATHLETIC SCHOLARSHIPS	[ { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Premier. In view of the trend of many of our top athletes in Ontario of going to the States on sports scholarships, doesn’t the Premier think it’s about time that we in Ontario had an ongoing lottery to provide funds for these scholarships to keep our athletes here?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "They can’t play football here." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I think there are two aspects to this question. One is the question of whether a lottery would be the appropriate means whereby one would finance “athletic scholarships.” I would think that if there were athletic scholarships there are probably other ways to finance them.", "The really basic question that has not been resolved -- in Ontario at least -- is the question of whether or not the universities are prepared to offer athletic scholarships leaving apart the source of funds. In my own limited experience in a former ministry, I can recall this being raised from time to time, and I happen to be somewhat interested in athletics. The question was always raised as to whether or not a university in this province should, by way of a recognized programme, have athletic scholarships for students in attendance at the institution.", "I can recall the former Minister of Correctional Services having some public views on this, and I must confess, Mr. Speaker, I’m of somewhat mixed feelings myself. I regret seeing a number of Ontario students going to Michigan State, Michigan, Denver, some to play hockey, some football, some basketball -- not many -- quite a few track and field, because I would prefer to see them here at our own post-secondary institutions.", "I think it is also fair to point out though, Mr. Speaker, and I don’t say this in any critical sense, that athletic scholarship programmes at some institutions in the United States have been abused. I think this is the part that is the concern of the universities in this province -- the question of abuse being built into the system.", "I happen to believe in intercollegiate athletics. I think the programmes, quite frankly, should be expanded. I would like to think that no student, really, is prejudiced or precluded from attending an Ontario university by lack of finance and I don’t think that many are, if any. However, when you have free tuition, perhaps other forms of inducements to go to one of the American colleges, it is sometimes difficult for a student here to say no.", "As I say, Mr. Speaker, I question whether the lottery would be the right approach. I think, really, it would be a matter for the universities of this province to resolve amongst themselves as to whether or not they wish to build scholarships for athletic competence into their form of student assistance, or student awards.", "As I say, I haven’t really given this subject much thought in the last six or seven months. I would be quite delighted to do so and, perhaps, give a more definitive answer. But the universities do concern themselves with this matter because I say very frankly, from some very personal knowledge, the scholarship system in some institutions south of the border has, without any question, been abused. I think all you have to do, Mr. Speaker, is read some of the material from time to time and you will find that’s factually to be the case." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "One supplementary: In view of the fact that a lot of American states are using lotteries very successfully, why is Ontario dragging its feet in creating this new source of capital?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "There’s a lot of Ontario money going outside the province too." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, that is, as I say, a separate question. Whether or not there should be an Ontario lottery for some purpose, whatever that purpose is, is something the government has not been neglecting." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "You buy lottery tickets any place in Ontario, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I just say we’re not neglecting considerations of that, Mr. Speaker, but I just have no policy statement to about it at this moment." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Parkdale." ] } ]	April 16, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-16/hansard
EMPLOYMENT OF STUDENTS IN PSYCHIATRIC HOSPITALS	[ { "speaker": "Mr. J. Dukszta (Parkdale)", "text": [ "I have a question of the Minister without Portfolio in charge of the Youth Secretariat. As yet no money has been allocated for the unclassified staff in the provincial mental hospitals. Summer students fall in this category. Could he tell me how much of the $9 million allocated for the summer students will be given to employ students in the mental hospitals -- the psychiatric hospitals of Ontario?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. D. R. Timbrell (Minister without Portfolio)", "text": [ "Not offhand, Mr. Speaker, but I will get an answer for the member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon member for Lanark." ] } ]	April 16, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-16/hansard
SALES TAX	[ { "speaker": "Mr. D. J. Wiseman (Lanark)", "text": [ "Yes, I have a question of the Minister of Revenue. In regard to the tax-free items that were mentioned in last Tuesday’s budget, could the minister tell us when these items will be tax-free so that we might tell some of the merchants in our area?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "As of May, he said the other day." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. A. K. Meen (Minister of Revenue)", "text": [ "Yes, Mr. Speaker, I hope to have it finished later this week with information out to the merchants of Ontario in the course of next week so that they will be able to bring the reductions into effect on Monday, April 29." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "A very inconsistent policy; I would say hypocritical." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for supplementary, yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Wiseman", "text": [ "Could the minister tell me in the case of the $30 limit for a pair of shoes, if a person purchases a $40 pair of shoes, does he pay the tax on the $10 over the $30, or the full $40?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "That is a conflict of interest, because the member sells shoes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Just buy one shoe at a time." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, once the price exceeds the minimum figure of $30, the tax is payable on the full purchase price of any article; just as it is payable on, let’s say, a meal in a restaurant above the minimum figure -- the rate of tax is on the whole of that meal. If it is to be otherwise, then it is a matter of policy for the Treasurer and Minister of Economics (Mr. White) to determine." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "What about one-legged customers?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. R. Good (Waterloo North)", "text": [ "Can they buy them one shoe at a time?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Downsview." ] } ]	April 16, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-16/hansard
INTERMEDIATE CAPACITY TRANSIT SYSTEM	[ { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Transportation and Communications. In view of the obvious failure of the computerized operation in the BART system in San Francisco, and in view of the failure of the government of the United States, after having spent $57 million in an experiment of its own to provide computerized transport, does the minister have any real reason to believe that his experiment, or the government’s experiment, is going to succeed -- even at the Exhibition, where he is spending considerably less?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "The “Davis train” doesn’t have wheels -- so it is going to work better." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Givens", "text": [ "That is right." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Yes, Mr. Speaker, we have reason to believe that it will be successful." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Why?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "The situation as it involves the BART project employs a technology developed over some 15 years; they were unable to keep up with today’s changing technology. In the case of the Morgan- town experiment, it was basically the same" ] }, { "speaker": "-- an old technology.", "text": [] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "The minister didn’t even know about the wheel before he became minister." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Windsor --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I didn’t complete the answer. I sat down because I believe the hon. member for York-Forest Hill has some profound statement to make, and I don’t want to interrupt him.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Downsview." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Well, he is not finished yet, he said." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "If the minister is going to stand up, he should answer the question." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, as I said at the outset, we have every reason to believe that our programme will be successful, despite what has happened in the incidents in the United States. We are testing our technology continually. Both projects were referred to in an article in the Globe and Mail this morning. Both of them went ahead and built their projects without doing adequate testing of their systems. That is not happening in this particular case." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, by way of supplementary, I was not referring to the difference between the magnetic levitation system and the wheel system. I was referring, in particular, to whatever reason the minister might have to believe that a computerized operation would work here when it hasn’t worked in the United States -- with the best technicians available, with the best technical advice and with the expenditure of far, far more money than even this government is putting into it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, for exactly the same reason that we talked about the various modes of moving the equipment. I’m sure the hon. member will agree that computer technology has improved somewhat over the past 15 years; and if he doesn’t believe so, then he is certainly behind the times." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "That is why they are going to blow up $57 million in the United States?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "All right, supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "In view of the fact that BART is 7 1/2 years down the road now on its programme and they are 1,000 per cent wrong on their carrying load, is the minister still committed to this programme? Is he going to go ahead with it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Yes, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Windsor West is next." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Just a supplementary, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Ottawa Centre on a supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "The cost of the BART programme having risen by more than double since it was inaugurated, can the minister now give us an estimate of the escalation in the per-mile cost of the GO-Urban system?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "No, Mr. Speaker, I can’t give that estimate at this time; I will attempt to get the figures for the hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Windsor West." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "It is escalating." ] } ]	April 16, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-16/hansard
STRIKE IN GUELPH	[ { "speaker": "Mr. E. J. Bounsall (Windsor West)", "text": [ "A question of the Minister of Labour, Mr. Speaker: Would he not agree that Doehler Canada Ltd. in Guelph, on strike since Jan. 29, and wholly owned by National Lead Co. did not bargain in good faith inasmuch as prior to the commencement of that strike it did not offer even one penny per hour increase in wages, and especially since the company’s lawyer is one Ted Stringer, an organizer of the anti-union conference in Hamilton?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am not in a position to say whether they have been bargaining in good or bad faith. I’d be glad to look into it and to report to the member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bounsall", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Could the minister at that same time report on the progress that he or his ministry officials have been making of late in trying to solve that strike?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "Can the member repeat the question? I didn’t hear it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bounsall", "text": [ "When the minister reports to us on what degree of bad faith the company has been showing, could he also report on the progress he or his ministry officials have been making of late to solve that strike, now some 13 weeks old?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Guindon", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have never said we would report on the company’s bad faith in this negotiation. There is no wav I can say that, as the member can realize. However, we would be glad to report and I’d be glad to find out exactly what has taken place lately; and if need be I would even go so far as to call a meeting between parties." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Perth is next." ] } ]	April 16, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-16/hansard
AID TO TORNADO VICTIMS	[ { "speaker": "Mr. H. Edighoffer (Perth)", "text": [ "A question of the Minister of Agriculture and Food: Is the minister considering making funds available, or recommending to the cabinet that funds be made available, to assist the farmers of Hibbert township and surrounding areas hit by the tornado last Sunday? There was considerable damage to houses and barns." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, a disaster policy has been in operation for a number of years. I believe it is administered by the department of the Treasurer and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "A very ineffectual one; it never cost the government very much." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "-- in which the province matches any moneys that are raised locally by subscription or otherwise." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Lakeshore." ] } ]	April 16, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-16/hansard
LAKESHORE PSYCHIATRIC HOSPITAL GRANTS	[ { "speaker": "Mr. P. D. Lawlor (Lakeshore)", "text": [ "To the Minister of Health, Mr. Speaker, pursuant to our little conversation in the hallway of a few days ago: Has the hon. minister had an opportunity to investigate the conditions, the grants, the pulling back, the confusion as to what moneys are available to the Lakeshore Psychiatric Hospital; particularly with its plans to decentralize?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, we had a conversation in the hall the other day, but I don’t recall all those adjectives." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "The question was asked in the House before." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "They were nouns." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "That’s why he doesn’t answer." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "I thought they were adjectives, but that explains why the member is a teacher and I am not." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "Mostly adverbs." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "One of the statements the member made at that point was that in fact we had cut back budgets at Lakeshore Psychiatric Hospital, and this is not true. On verifying the figures with our staff, I find we increased the budget by about four per cent. At the same time the number of patients being treated was reduced by almost 10 per cent. Now no programmes were eliminated as a result, although a few programmes that were being considered for implementation have not been started; we are continuing with the same slate of programmes as was carried on before.", "Did the member want the answer to the earlier part of his question about the land? Is that implicit in this?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "The minister may continue; yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Thank you, thank you." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "The minister remembers the nouns now." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Yes, I have trouble with those.", "There was a switch of property made between Humber College and Lakeshore Psychiatric Hospital to serve each of the institutions better. A mental retardation facility is planned to be built on property, currently owned by Humber College I understand, some distance from Lakeshore Psychiatric Hospital; and in turn some acreage was given to Humber College for the construction of buildings on property currently owned by Lakeshore Psychiatric Hospital. After studying the needs of both institutions it was felt this exchange of land made good sense and would serve both well." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "Supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Lakeshore, supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "On those slated programmes that have been cut back, is it the ministry intention to cut back the programmes for a centre for mentally retarded adults and a forensic centre for the criminally insane at that location?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the member mentioned the forensic programme was to be a new programme, I believe, in talking to me earlier." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "Yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "This programme is not being implemented at the present time. This is the understanding I was given." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "How about the mentally retarded project -- all right!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "Is there a cutback?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "There is no cutback that I know of in mentally retarded facilities there." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "What does the minister mean?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "As the member knows we transferred most of the mental retardation facilities from this ministry to the Ministry of Community and Social Services effective April 1, and therefore I’d have to refer the member to that minister for a specific answer." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Kitchener -- or for Waterloo North I should say." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "Thank you, I accept your apologies." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "He accepts that as an apology." ] } ]	April 16, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-16/hansard
SUMMER EMPLOYMENT PROGRAMME	[ { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "A question of the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations: How much money was allocated under the Experience ‘74 programme for setting up of consumer complaint bureaus in storefront operations this summer to create employment for youth?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, a request came in from one of the faculty members at Niagara College for this type of a pilot programme. We advised that particular individual that we had no funding available and referred it to the Youth Secretariat. The Youth Secretariat reported back to me that it endorsed the programme -- the total programme was to cost $11,000, $9,000 of which would have to be approved by Management Board of Cabinet -- on condition that $2,000 would have to be raised locally for administrative costs by the Niagara College people involved.", "The last I heard of it, a week or 10 days ago, the people at Niagara College -- and I don’t know the number of administrative staff I’m talking about, whether it’s one or five people -- regretfully were unable to raise $2,000. Therefore, as the matter stands right now, we are reviewing it to see if we are going to proceed with that programme or not." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "A supplementary, Mr. Speaker --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The time for questions has expired." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "Just one supplementary?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The time has expired. I will perhaps recognize the hon. member at the next question period if he wants to ask a new question." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "When is that going to be?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "On Thursday next." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Thursday, thank you." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Petitions.", "Presenting reports.", "Motions.", "Introduction of bills." ] } ]	April 16, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-16/hansard
COMMISSIONER OF THE LEGISLATURE ACT, 1974	[ { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, this is the ninth consecutive time I’ve introduced this bill. Sometimes I think I’m making a little progress, sometimes I’m not quite sure -- but I’m going to persist in it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Arthur Wishart almost bought it one year." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "The protection of citizens and investigations of their complaints in regard to civil servants cannot be overemphasized. The success of this type of office in other jurisdictions, such as the Province of Alberta, has been noteworthy and certainly should be followed now in the Province of Ontario." ] } ]	April 16, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-16/hansard
BUSINESS CORPORATIONS ACT	[ { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, this is the second consecutive time I have introduced this bill. The reason for this bill is the activities of certain companies that are compelling certain people to give up their fingerprints for the privilege of cashing cheques.", "The bill was introduced last year in the hope that it would curtail the activities of these companies in that they could not compel people to give their prints and, secondly, once prints were taken, by controlling what could be done with the prints.", "I am told the activities of these companies have extended to the point where they now want to footprint babies, nose-print dogs and even start taking fingerprints from people who are on welfare. We feel, Mr. Speaker, that this activity should be curtailed and controlled." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Orders of the day." ] }, { "speaker": "Clerk of the House", "text": [ "The first order, resuming the adjourned debate on the motion that this House approve in general the budgetary policy of the government." ] } ]	April 16, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-16/hansard
BUDGET DEBATE	[ { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Kitchener." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the true measure of the 1974 Ontario budget is not in the rhetoric of the Treasurer’s statement but in his forecast for Ontario’s economy this year. The Treasurer (Mr. White) speaks of “measures to restrain inflation” yet he forecasts the rate of inflation will accelerate to 10 per cent or more this year. The Treasurer claims he has introduced measures “to increase the supply of housing” yet he predicts there will be fewer hoaxing starts in 1974 than there were in 1973. The Treasurer claims his budget introduces greater equity yet he predicts there will be a 15 per cent increase in unemployment in Ontario this year over last; that is, a rise from 143,000 to 164,000.", "I presume, Mr. Speaker, that the Treasurer talks with his friends in Ottawa; that is, his Conservative friends. His national leader spends most of his time trying to throw banana skins under the federal government but the most likely result is that Father Lewis will be tripped; however that is another story. If Mr. Stanfield is correct, inflation is running rampant and it will destroy the middle classes and those pensioners who save for a better future in their retirement.", "If the federal Liberals are correct, the inflation rate in Canada is to be compared with that of other nations. We are to be seen as comparatively successful when we see most other nations -- such as Switzerland, Yugoslavia and Vietnam -- suffer through annual rates of 12, 24 and 65 per cent.", "Whichever view one may accept, the facts are that Ontario is not controlling its own contribution to inflation. Ontario is not taking the lead that is needed. This government usually claims that its programmes are the best in Canada or in North America or even in the western world. Each minister of the Crown uses the press facilities and those of selected public relations firms to tell our citizens the wonders of Toryism in Ontario. But the failure of our wealthy province to influence inflation pressures is not as well brought before our eight million people.", "Quite simply, the solutions offered in this government’s budget will not relieve inflation, will not increase the supply of housing and will not control unemployment. Rather than try to solve the problems of our economy, the Treasurer has chosen to obscure them with insincere and superficial remedies. He has substituted rhetoric for real solutions.", "The government’s cynicism is nowhere more apparent than in the claim that this budget will have a neutral economic impact. The Treasurer made the same claim in last year’s budget yet he ended the year with a deficit of $421 million and inflation advanced for our citizens by more than nine per cent in that year. This year, spending will increase by more than $1 billion. The gap between revenues and expenditures will grow by more than 17 per cent and the budgetary deficit will rise by $625 million.", "This government will have added more than $2 billion to the public debt in four years, and annual interest payments on the debt have jumped by 177 per cent to $674 million this year." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon (Leader of the Opposition)", "text": [ "It is a shame. A fiscal nightmare." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "These uncontrolled spending increases are adding to the inflationary pressures in our economy. In its 1974 economic forecast the Financial Times of Canada says of Ontario, “The most critical problem for the province will probably be to bring public spending into better balance with revenues.” The Chamber of Commerce agrees with the following comment, “What is urgently required is fiscal discipline from governments in Canada. The current rates of growth of government spending are excessive and have contributed in a major way to domestic inflation.” A recent report by the Ontario Economic Council stated bluntly that rising government expenditures were inflationary in their impact on the economy.", "Mr. Speaker, in January of this year, Ontario’s Treasurer said the following to a meeting of Canadian finance ministers:", "“I acknowledge the contribution of the public sector to inflation. In its ninth and tenth annual reviews, the Economic Council of Canada recommended reduced expenditure growth in the public sector. I agree with this recommendation.”", "Well, as quoted, the Treasurer may agree with the recommendation but he has certainly not heeded it. Last year he increased Ontario’s rate of expenditure growth from 7.5 per cent to 12.7 per cent. This year he has increased the rate again, to 14.3 per cent.", "Interim statistics for the last fiscal year indicate the lack of control on provincial government spending. Total government expenditures were about $35 million over budget, and the budgetary deficit was $19 million more than the Treasurer predicted. His own ministry overspent its budget by $13 million. The Ministry of Education overspent by $37 million. Community and Social Services overspent by 15 per cent, or $74 million more than was budgeted. Interest payments on the public debt were $26 million over budget.", "Expenditures were also out of control in 1972-1973. The Ministry of the Environment overspent its budget by 35 per cent. The Ministry of Agriculture and Food overspent by 18.5 per cent. Indeed, total government spending that year was some $117 million above the budgeted amounts.", "Mr. Speaker, the Treasurer is rather sensitive about the size of the provincial debt. Instead of embarking on another wild spending spree this year, the government should be restricting its expenditures until they are needed to stimulate the economy. The budgeted increase of more than 20 per cent on direct capital expenditures is particularly inappropriate and inflationary.", "The Ontario economy is now operating very close to capacity. Demand is outstripping supply in many segments, and bottlenecks are developing in the supply process. The provincial government should not be competing with the private sector for scarce resources. Such competition will only aggravate the existing shortages and drive prices even higher. The expansionary policies that were necessary two years ago to relieve high unemployment are not suitable to our present generally almost full-employment situation.", "Those areas in the north and east where unemployment remains high should be assisted with regional development programmes. However, the large provincial deficit for which the Treasurer has budgeted can only generally add fuel to the fires of inflation.", "Cost cutting could begin in the Premier’s own office, where the staff has now grown to 58, including his newly appointed press secretary who will cost us $30,000 per year. This press secretary is in addition to a $25,000 per year press aide, who maintains contact with the press gallery at Queen’s Park. The government would be well advised to note the comments of Mr. J. L. Kozlowski in a letter to the Welland Tribune last month. Mr. Kozlowski wrote:", "“Why should the taxpayers of Ontario pay for the services of the new press secretary, whose duties will actually involve public relations work on behalf of the Premier (Mr. Davis) and the Conservative Party? This kind of misuse of the public’s money to try to improve a badly damaged image brought about solely by consistently inept and bungling performances by members of the Premier’s party and staff is absolutely ludicrous and irresponsible and typical of a government that has lurched from crisis to crisis since the last election.”", "Salaries and wages in the Premier’s office and in the cabinet office jumped 335 per cent in the first two years of the Davis government, and travel expenses multiplied by five times.", "The policy secretariats or superministries have been a failure; yet they will spend about $1.3 million annually. Their lack of success was indicated recently when three ministers with the resource development policy area were arguing in public over the appropriate routing for the oil pipeline extension to Montreal.", "The government should admit that these secretariats were a mistake. The Premier was able to front-bench his rivals in the last leadership campaign so that two of them have since dropped from sight. Now that his position is secure within his party, he could eliminate these useless appendices to power. This is even more apparent when the sometime Attorney General has now taken over the justice policy secretariat -- which appears to have submerged without a bubble, except for the continuing cost.", "This government could save another $17 million by cancelling its Krauss-Maffei magnetic levitation experiment at the Canadian National Exhibition grounds. The Krauss-Maffei system has been seriously discredited as a solution to Ontario’s urban transport problems. Even if it does work, it will be inferior to comparable but less expensive systems already in use around the world. Urgently needed transit developments in Ontario’s cities are being delayed while the provincial government wastes time and money with this experiment.", "The pork-barrel payments to Conservative back-benchers for their service on boards and commissions should also be stopped. The recent commission on the Legislature, of which Mr. Dalton Camp is the chairman, found no other jurisdiction where this practice is so overworked as in Ontario.", "The member for Dufferin-Simcoe (Mr. Downer) receives $7,000 annually as a member of the Liquor Licence Board of Ontario. The member for Fort William (Mr. Jessiman) gets $5,000 as chairman of the Ontario Northland -- apparently together with many other perquisites as the recent reports in the Globe and Mail have shown. The member for Ontario (Mr. Dymond) receives $5,000 as chairman of the Ontario Science Centre. The member for Haldimand-Norfolk (Mr. Allan) gets $5,000 as chairman of the Niagara Parks Commission. The member for Hastings (Mr. Rollins) gets $5,000 as chairman of the St. Lawrence Parks Commission. The member for Wellington-Dufferin (Mr. Root) gets $100 per diem when he sits as a member of the Environmental Hearing Board.", "In fact, there are only about a dozen members of the Conservative Party in this Legislature who do not get payments of some sort beyond their basic salaries of $22,500. These payments may help them cope with rising prices, but in fact they aggravate inflation in Ontario by adding, if nothing else, to the provincial debt.", "Unfortunately, the recent reappointment of the member for Simcoe Centre (Mr. Evans) as a director of Ontario Hydro with a salary of $7,000 is another indication that this government intends to continue its ill-conceived system of rewarding faithful back-benchers.", "Last year, Ontario Place lost some $1.7 million, even though entrance fees were increased by 50 per cent. Now, the same bureaucrats who produced that extravagance are promoting Maple Mountain for northeastern Ontario. The government has already spent $250,000 on feasibility studies and, according to the Conservation Council of Ontario, has made significant expenditures to improve road access to the area.", "This government must involve the public in discussions about the entire Maple Mountain project immediately. Surely the citizens of the province have a far greater right to know what is going on than the chosen business confidants of the Ministry of Industry and Tourism, who all stand to profit from their proximity to the seats of power in Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Don t they know it! Don’t they like it!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Certainly the costly errors and expenses that were part of Ontario Place and of the Science Centre in their election year starts must be avoided before Maple Mountain is paraded before us by a Davis government bent on seeking re-election in 1975. The combination of the Krauss-Maffei kiddie cars at the CNE and Maple Mountain for northeastern Ontario will be too blatant, even then, as our citizens are once again bribed with their own money." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. L. Bernier (Minister of Natural Re- sources)", "text": [ "The member will regret those words." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "There are dozens of steps this government should be taking to bring its expenditures under control and reduce its inflationary deficit. I have just referred to a few of them. The greatest savings will result from a realignment of priorities within programmes, rather than the complete elimination of certain expenditure items.", "Greater emphasis on preventive health care, for instance, would substantially reduce overall health care expenditures. Another saving would result by cutting sharply into advertising expenses. There was some $2 million spent within Ontario last year. We should eliminate all advertisements that do not either alert our residents to some danger or inform them of the steps they should take to benefit from government programmes.", "Mr. Speaker, the soaring expenditures associated with regional governments are all adding to the provincial debt. The programme of this government, whereby regional governments have been imposed throughout Ontario, has aggravated the cost-price squeeze for many goods and services. The attempt to achieve economies of scale by centralizing municipal decisions has backfired, and the dramatic increase in regional government costs are now contributing to inflation.", "In Waterloo county, my part of Ontario, the cost of services assumed by the regional government increased by 36 per cent in the first year of regional government." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Economies of scale, they call it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "In Kitchener, costs rose by 25 per cent; in Waterloo they were up by 82 per cent." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Not bad." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "In Burlington it’ll be even worse." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "In the township of North Dumfries they went up by 120 per cent. Start-up costs in the region were $1.8 million, a quarter of which was paid from the provincial Treasury; the balance was added to the property tax burden of the region. The extension of municipal police services to rural areas allowed the Ontario Provincial Police to decrease its detachment by five officers. But the region added 43 more policemen at a cost of some $300,000." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "How about that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. H. Worton (Wellington South)", "text": [ "That’s economy." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Here are some quotations from an article that was printed in the Kitchener-Waterloo Record on April 11, last Thursday, and which was based on research done by Robert Mackenzie of that newspaper. And I quote:", "“Sixteen months ago, before regional government in Waterloo county, the various levels of municipal government provided about 1,750 full-time jobs, employing slightly more than one in every 100 workers of the county’s estimated labour force of 120,000.", "“The population and labour force have each grown about three per cent since Jan. 1, 1973, the official start of regional government. But municipal employment has skyrocketed more than 55 per cent to more than 2,740, up about 990, including slightly more than 1,000 who work directly for the region.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "And the taxpayers pay." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Mr. Mackenzie goes into some detail as to the net gains and losses with the appearance and disappearance of the several municipalities. The one further comment that I think is worthwhile in this area concerns the activities in the new city of Cambridge, a municipality which Mr.", "Speaker represents. This will suffice:", "“The story in Cambridge still is a mystery. A report on current employment in Cambridge as compared with the former municipalities of Gait, Preston and Hespeler, before amalgamation, was prepared about two months ago. However, city officials refuse to make it public.”", "Mr. Speaker, the total is presumed to be about 450. Formerly Gait had about 240 employees, Preston had 100 and Hespeler had 26. That means an increase of 23 per cent in total, even after the regional subtractions of police and parks and recreation are considered." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Worton", "text": [ "What a way to go!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "And the rate of increase is to continue at five per cent each year, so we are told." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "It’s a spending machine." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "The experience in Waterloo region is unfortunately not unique. In Georgian Bay township, one resident’s taxes rose by more than 400 per cent, from $49.50 in 1969, before regional government was introduced in Muskoka, to $254 last year. This year the rates are expected to rise by another 173 per cent to $695. In all, a total change of 14 times the original amount in only five years.", "In four years of regional government in Niagara, the annual cost of operating the regional municipality, exclusive of the local municipalities, has jumped by 85 per cent; from $22 million to $41 million. In Ottawa-Carleton, spending by that regional government has increased by 88 per cent in five years.", "These soaring expenditures affect all of the taxpayers in Ontario, not only those who are living in the regional areas. The provincial Treasury paid some 46 per cent of all municipal government costs last year. This amounted to $1.9 billion and the excessive costs associated with regional government add unnecessarily to provincial government spending which further aids inflation. However, in the past year, when the consumer price index has advanced by the largest single amount in 22 years, this Conservative government has implemented five more regional governments on our people. The costs for this expensive form of municipal involvement are apparently out of control.", "The Premier was quoted in the press as having talked recently about the matter of hypocrisy. As an acknowledged expert on the subject, he might have referred to his own Ministry of Health, which restricts the spending increases of hospitals to about seven per cent this year but which will increase its own departmental expenditures this year by almost 13 per cent." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "There’s hypocrisy for you, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "We can also refer to the 1974 Ontario budget, which begins with the following words -- and I am sure you will recall them, Mr. Speaker -- “The most important problem facing us today is inflation.”", "The budget ends with a record budgetary deficit of $625 million." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "They’re trying to have it both ways." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Without the courage to stop inflation, this government cannot hope to control inflation in the whole of Ontario’s economy. Provincial government spending constitutes more than 15 per cent of Ontario’s gross provincial product. Strict controls on such a major portion of our economy would not only slow price increases.", "Ontario’s government cannot slow the inflationary spiral in the provincial economy until it can find the courage to control the inflation of its own expenditures." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "And until the Treasurer can find the courage to come in and listen to the debate." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Such an approach would dampen the psychology that accepts continual price and cost increases as inevitable. It would also reduce the high demand pressures that propel the inflationary spiral.", "Besides limiting its own expenditures, the government of Ontario should be reducing the extreme inflationary pressures originating in the business sector.", "According to statistics compiled by the federal government, Canadian businessmen propose to relieve the supply bottlenecks that have developed in the economy by a 21 per cent increase in capital investment in 1974.", "In some areas of the nation, particularly in the Maritimes, massive capital investment may be beneficial. But in Ontario it would result in even greater inflationary pressures generated by shortages in materials and in skilled labour.", "The Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce noted last fall:", "“Labour shortages have become increasingly apparent in various skilled trades and in various regions in Canada ... In addition, the shortages of capacity which are now apparent in a number of industries are also likely to continue for some time.”", "Canadian Business magazine agreed in its 1974 forecast for Ontario:", "“There is a shortage of materials and specific labour skills and little excess capacity in many industries. That would seem to create difficulties in expanding business activity to the same degree as in 1973.... The preliminary estimate of business spending intentions for 1974 indicates an even larger expansion, particularly in the manufacturing sector. There is a real question whether such a large in- crease can be accommodated, given the shortages of labour and materials.”", "Production of steel, which is already in short supply, will only increase by about four per cent this year, and shortages of roofing and insulation materials are expected to continue throughout 1974. Unrestrained business spending can only force prices higher.", "The federal government is currently reducing corporate income taxes by one per cent annually to encourage capital investment in those regions of the nation where extra demand can be accommodated. The federal tax has been reduced from 40 per cent in 1972 to 38 per cent this year, and it will be reduced by an additional two per cent by 1976.", "This economic stimulus though appropriate in some regions of the country, contributes most importantly to inflation in Ontario.", "The provincial government should consider stepping into the area that has been vacated by the federal authorities and increase its own corporate tax by the two per cent that has been given up. Accommodation for developments in northern and eastern Ontario could, of course, be made as deemed necessary.", "Such an increase, we expect, would withdraw some $96 million from the business sector in 1974 and would help to reduce the inflationary pressures within Ontario’s economy accordingly.", "Although spending reductions will reduce legitimate inflation, the government also must protect consumers from unjustified price increases, and this it has failed to do.", "A standing committee of the Legislature should be empowered to function as a provincial prices review board, and it should be provided with the necessary powers and staff. It must not only examine price in- creases that are within provincial jurisdiction, but also recommend action, including rollbacks, to the Legislature.", "A provincial prices review board would have been required to approve the recent milk price increase, for instance, after hearing evidence from the Ontario Milk Marketing Board and the other interested parties, including consumer groups. It would also review proposals to increase medical fee schedules or car insurance rates to ensure that such changes were justified by higher costs." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier", "text": [ "A page out of the NDP book." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "The review board would also be able to study pricing practices in specific industries and to recommend a permanent review or control mechanism wherever price-gouging is widespread. Such a review of the apartment situation and rent structures generally should be an urgent priority.", "There is already considerable evidence, particularly in the Toronto area, that apartment owners are taking advantage of the extremely low apartment vacancy rate to institute substantial rent increases.", "This procedure would give all sectors of our economy a forum for information, for response and ultimately for action.", "The 1974 Ontario budget takes a small step towards easing the impact of inflation on the elderly, the blind and the disabled, with the introduction of the guaranteed income system." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier", "text": [ "Biggest increase in any province in Canada." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "The new system, of course, Mr. Speaker, is identical to that proposed by the Liberal Party in October, and we welcome the government’s announcement.", "It is appalling that Ontario had not acted until now to create this much-needed programme. It is even more difficult to understand why the 311,000 beneficiaries should have to wait another 2 1/2 months for the programme to be implemented.", "This new programme will provide only limited protection against inflation unless the benefits are indexed and adjusted at least annually to offset the full amount of the rise in the consumer price index.", "The Treasurer’s vague promise that “the guaranteed income levels will be increased periodically” is not sufficient.", "The government should also be adjusting other social benefit payments as prices rise, including Workmen’s Compensation Board payments and family assistance payments.", "The GAINS programme, as outlined by the Treasurer, is only a beginning. A retired couple can now receive up to $433.33 per month, but a mother with one child must still subsist on a monthly payment of only $252 under the family assistance programme. There is the additional $20 in federal family allowance payments, of course, but the total remains 42 per cent less than the retired couple receives.", "A study of 524 poor families in Toronto, which was made in December, 1971, showed they paid an average of $37 more for rent per month than the provincial assistance budget provided. The amount which was left for food, personal care expenses, clothing, household maintenance, school supplies and emergencies was therefore reduced to about $128 a month.", "As a result, some families had as little as 50 cents per person per day to spend on food. The budget allowance for a family of four was increased by $30 in January, 1973, but only $5 of this increase was allocated to shelter costs and the total increase has since been wiped out by inflation.", "Mr. Speaker, rapidly rising food costs and prices are the most cruel and most alarming aspect of the present inflation and yet the Treasurer did not even mention food costs in his budget address." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "There goes another busy minister." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "In low-income families --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier", "text": [ "This is what we heard last year." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "-- higher food prices especially caused a shift to food of lower nutritional value. Results can be devastating. A report prepared by the government of Quebec found, “The higher functions of the brain, logic and reasoning, and some other activities, reading and writing, are greatly compromised in the undernourished child.”", "The National Council of Welfare has also reported “The poorly nourished child has trouble paying attention, is more likely to fall asleep in class, is more restless, more irritable and less alert.”", "I suppose that could refer to --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. A. J. Roy (Ottawa East)", "text": [ "They are all undernourished on the other side." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. A. Stewart (Minister of Agriculture and Food)", "text": [ "I never knew what was wrong when I listened to the member’s speech before. That is what happened." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "That is what happens to the Minister of Agriculture and Food. He didn’t have his Wheaties this morning." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Is the minister talking about food for thought?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "It could happen, Mr. Speaker, that --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "I am undernourished. That is the problem." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "-- certain members of the House might be afflicted with those problems but I doubt --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "I thought it was the member’s speeches." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "-- if it is a lack of nourishment for any of the members opposite.", "Food prices have risen 16 per cent in the past year in Toronto; 17.8 per cent in Ottawa and 14.8 per cent in Thunder Bay. In just one year, beef prices have increased by 25 per cent; poultry prices are up 35 per cent; the cost of eggs has risen by 26 per cent; the cost of fresh fruit has jumped 27 per cent; and the cost of sugar soared by 72 per cent.", "The price of milk increased from 36 to 41 cents per quart just yesterday, an increase of 14 per cent." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. G. A. Kerr (Solicitor General)", "text": [ "Why doesn’t the member talk to Beryl Plumptre? How about he and Beryl getting together for the weekend?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Some of these increases have no doubt been necessary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Don’t throw him out. There are few enough of them over there." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Yes, I don’t think we would have a quorum if you disposed of the Solicitor General, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Although on other occasions it might be all right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "We might get some intelligent comments, though." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "In any event, of course, we are here to deal with the business of this province and I think we have an obligation to deal with the things that are of provincial concern. Whether other jurisdictions have their problems or handle them in ways that they think best is really not our problem here.", "Some of these increases as I have said, Mr. Speaker, have no doubt been necessary to offset higher costs and others, such as the milk price increase, have been necessary to enable some farmers to stay in business. As the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations (Mr. Clement) will discover when he studies the activities of the food industry for 1973 it is apparent that some food price increases have not been justified. These are increases that Ontario consumers will bear, if not very gladly.", "Some price increases were in fact apparently not justified and they are now appearing as higher profits in the food industry. Profits of the food processing companies in Canada rose by 81,1 per cent in the fourth quarter of 1973; by about 60 per cent for the entire year.", "Maple Leaf Mills, one of the larger food processers, had profits of $7.9 million in 1973 compared with $3.1 million in 1972, a 155 per cent increase.", "George Weston Ltd., of Toronto, increased its profits by 86 per cent in 1973 from $18.6 million to $34.6 million. J. M. Schneider Foods increased profits by 35 per cent last year, and Burns Foods increased its profits in the first nine months of 1973 by 24 per cent over the same time period in 1972.", "Canada Packers’ profit was up 33 per cent for the nine months ended’ Feb. 1, 1974, over the same period last year.", "Officials from these companies and many others should immediately be summoned before a standing committee of the Legislature to justify their enormous price increases. If they were found to be unwarranted, the Legislature should be asked to consider measures to roll back prices in the food processing industry, and a mechanism should be established to review future price increases as I have already suggested.", "The government’s study into the economics of the food industry for 1973 must be accelerated to aid the standing committee in its work. The government, if it was serious about inflation would also require food retailers to provide detailed information about their internal economic structures in their annual reports so that consumers would have more information to consider on that subject.", "At the retail level, unit pricing should be required by law to assist food shoppers in getting the best value for the money spent. Wasteful packaging should be controlled and in particular, non-returnable cans and bottles should be outlawed. If any such convenience packaging is thought necessary in particular exceptions, the premium should be sufficiently high to discourage all but exceptional use.", "Soft drink manufacturers faced sharp price increases for cans and bottles on April 1, but only 50 per cent of the soft drink containers sold in Ontario are in returnable bottles. Bottlers maintain that returnable containers would lower their production costs. Surely we must have a standard returnable soft drink container similar to the standard beer bottle used in Ontario. This would reduce costs.", "If inflation in the price of food is to be controlled, we must not only look at the effects in the manufacturing and retail levels. We must also look at the effects on the farmers who are the primary producers in the chain.", "One of the most important long-term factors in the spiralling price of food is the loss of prime agricultural land. This government must act now to preserve our best land for agricultural use. Ontario has about seven million acres of prime farmland -- this is equal in amount to nearly one-third of all of the best land available in Canada. But lands are now being used for housing, for hydro rights-of-way, for highways and even for airports. Even successful dairy farmers can make a better living by selling their farms and collecting interest on the proceeds, than by working the land and keeping herds and producing much needed foodstuffs.", "Data from the 1966 and 1971 federal census indicates that the Province of Ontario loses 26 acres of arable farmland every hour of every day. The acreage of improved land has dropped by some 9.5 per cent in the past five years.", "This dangerous trend must be stopped. As the Ontario Federation of Agriculture has reported:", "“It is not only farmers’ incomes that depend on preserving farmland. How land is regulated will also determine how much food will be on the supermarket shelves in the future, and at what price.”", "As residential and industrial development occur, a directly proportionate demand for food arises. With every acre of farmland that is consumed by urban sprawl, the ability to produce food is altered although the demand for food is increased.", "However, because of the actions of this government, farmers on the fringes of urban development are unable to expand their operations because of the artificially high prices for land and because of the inflated property taxes. Some farmers in Peel county recently expressed the view that these pressures will eliminate their activities within the next six months. It may well be that unless this government acts effectively, some food products may not be available locally at any reasonable price.", "The main objective of the government of Ontario should be to keep viable farmland in production. A clear policy is needed to assess the provincial impact of projects such as highways and dams. If that was done, the Minister of Agriculture and Food could also make comments on such matters and not have to restrict his remarks to federal government projects alone, such as the Sarnia to Montreal pipeline.", "Mr. Speaker, development should be prohibited on class 1 and class 2 farmland unless it is demonstrated that no other suitable land is available for such development. Property taxes on these lands should be levied at agricultural rates. Methods of compensating farmers for lost development rights should be carefully studied and an equitable solution arrived at in this important area. The cost implications of issuing long-term debentures to farmers whose land is so restricted must be considered by this government", "As a short-term solution to production needs, the government should consider enacting legislation that would require farmlands bought or now being held by speculators to remain in agricultural production until development proceeds. The activities of speculators in raw land have contributed to an artificial reduction in agricultural production. These persons buy viable farms, and, in many cases, remove them from active agricultural production. They allow the buildings to become dilapidated and the fields to be overgrown with weeds.", "Ontario’s Minister of Agriculture and Food has admitted: “There are hundreds, yes, thousands of acres of good farmland held by developers, speculators, hobby farmers, retired or tired farmers that could be put to use.” But his government has not listened to him. The Liberal opposition agrees with the opinion of the committee on farm classification that land which is not used for production should not be eligible for the same benefits as bona fide farmland. We endorse the view expressed by the Sarnia Observer that “if empty land is purchased and not put into production, it should be taxed as industrial land. Disappearing farmland is a very real threat, one that will need firm laws to stop.”", "In the longer term, a major thrust of government policy must be to steer growth away from class 1 and class 2 farmland. Some people advocate doing this by stopping all developments, but this is obviously not a realistic solution for Ontario, where our population increases annually by about 125,000 people. A real provincial development plan is needed to decentralize the growth that contributes to the urban sprawl in the “golden horseshoe.”", "We must ensure that all parts of the province share in industrial expansion and in the accommodation of our growing population. Surely all members of this House will agree with me that the use of our prime agricultural lands to develop the industrial and housing sites we need is no longer an acceptable solution. Prime agricultural land is a limited resource, and it is one which we must carefully and wisely use.", "Mr. Speaker, the failure of this government to provide an adequate supply of serviced building lots has resulted in a critical housing shortage and in rapidly rising prices for accommodation of every sort. The Ontario Economic Council reported a year ago that by concentrating its efforts on house building instead of on land servicing, the province is “treating the symptoms and not the disease.” The OEC also noted that Ontario “lacks a planned programme of ensuring an adequate supply or serviced land in the correct places.”", "The Treasurer announced in last week’s budget that the province will allocate $11 million to “increase the supply of serviced lots” in 1974. His proposal, Mr. Speaker, is practically meaningless. In Ontario, it costs from $5,000 to $6,000 to service a single building lot, especially in the Toronto area. In northern Ontario the costs are, of course, much higher. Even at $5,000 per lot, this pathetic programme will service at the most some 2,200 building lots -- hardly a bold new response.", "The Ontario Task Force on Housing reported several months ago that there is “a near crisis in housing” in this province, but the Speech from the Throne and the budget for 1974 have both revealed that this old Conservative government lacks the will to control spiralling land and housing costs.", "Everywhere in Ontario, house prices are out of control. The average cost of a home in Metropolitan Toronto has increased by 36 per cent in the past year, an escalation of about $1,000 a month.", "The situation in the Kitchener-Waterloo area has been well documented by my colleague, the member for Waterloo North (Mr. Good) in his contribution to the Throne debate, and I shall not repeat those details here.", "Other cities in Ontario have also been experiencing alarming house price increases. Shelter costs in Ottawa rose by 22 per cent last year, and in Thunder Bay housing costs went up by 25 per cent. In January of this year, the agency members of the Mississauga Real Estate Board sold twice as many houses as they did last year, but the value of the sales tripled. The average price of resale homes in Hamilton was 21 per cent higher in the last half of 1973 than a year earlier, and in Sault Ste. Marie house costs have risen by 25 per cent in the past 18 months. I think we would all benefit from a look at the proposal which this government has now brought forward to deal in some way with this problem.", "I refer, of course, to the proposed land speculation tax.", "While I can agree with this kind of tax in principle, I fear that the programme may contain too many loopholes to have any significant effect on the price of housing.", "Unless the tax is coupled with measures to substantially increase the supply of serviced land, it will only underpin the present inflated price levels. Indeed, without a mechanism to prevent its effects from being passed on the house buyer, the tax may even aggravate the problem.", "The speculative profits of all developers to date are to be exempted from the tax; so the biggest land owners, including the 13 foreign-controlled companies, which we are told own half of the land available for housing between Oshawa and Burlington, will not pay any tax on their windfall profits.", "The select committee on economic and cultural nationalism reported last fall that “through market linkages, hyper-investment in urban commercial developments is putting undue upward pressure on residential real estate prices and shelter costs.”", "However, the terms of the proposed tax would not apparently apply to the speculative profits made from the sales of commercial or industrial properties.", "The effectiveness of the proposed land speculation tax is further undermined by the exemption of sales where the vendor has made capital expenditures on the property equal to 20 per cent of the acquisition cost.", "The tax will therefore not apply to the type of house speculation that is rampant in inter-city areas like Donvale and Cabbagetown in Toronto. Typically, these houses are purchased from lower-income families, then renovated and resold at a significant profit. The cost of renovations often exceeds 20 per cent of the purchase price and the speculative profits would therefore not be taxable under the Treasurer’s proposal.", "One house in Cabbagetown, at 410 Sumach St., was purchased for $31,000 in 1972, then renovated and resold last year for $56,900. That is a price increase of 84 per cent. Another, at 435 Wellesley St. E. was purchased in 1972 for $24,000 and resold within the year for $58,000, a profit of 142 per cent.", "This type of speculation is particularly a problem, since the displaced low-income families usually have no alternative accommodation but subsidized housing.", "Undoubtedly the number of speculative transactions will decrease once the proposed tax is implemented, but a quick calculation, using 1973 figures, gives some indication of the magnitude of the moneys involved.", "The president of the Ontario Real Estate Association, who is not likely to over-estimate in such matters, said last month that at least 30 per cent of real estate sales in Ontario involve speculators. Speculative real estate sales therefore had a value of approximately $2.4 billion last year.", "If real estate prices across the province rose by an average of 15 per cent during the year, speculator profits were about $360 million. A tax of 50 per cent on these profits would have yielded $180 million, but the Treasurer’s proposed tax is expected to yield only $25 million or 14 per cent of my last figure.", "The Treasurer has argued that “the success of this speculation tax will be inversely related to its revenue yield. The smaller the revenues, the greater the desired impact on curbing speculation.”", "In fact, he has provided so many loopholes that the revenue from this tax could drop to zero and speculative activity could continue almost unabated in the guise of land development or of urban renewal.", "A study of the effect of the land speculation tax on smaller builders illustrates one method by which the amount of the tax will probably be passed on to the home buyer. The role of the smaller builder in providing housing is particularly important in northern Ontario, where only very few companies can afford to finance the complete development process.", "The smaller builder who adds services to a building lot must recover his investment at that stage in the development process, and he will then often sell the lot to another builder who actually puts up the house.", "In Sudbury, where there are no large builders, the price of an unserviced lot is about $500. It will cost another $500 for the necessary surveying, engineering and legal fees. If the land is not excessively rocky, services may cost another $7,000, plus about $400 for interest charges on the money used for the construction of services. The builder’s total cost, before he starts to construct a house, is about $8,400.", "If the present selling price for a serviced lot is in the $10,500-$11,000 range, there will be a profit of some $2,600 for the work he has done. However, the land speculation tax at this stage will cut his after-tax profit from about $1,000 to $500, unless he adds the difference to the selling price of the serviced lot. With the tax structured as the Treasurer has proposed, he will have little alternative but to do just this.", "The proposed change in the land transfer tax should discourage the limited number of short-term foreign speculators and hopefully will slow the alienation of our best recreational properties.", "However, this tax will likely not deter many of the Swiss, American, Japanese, German and British investors who are competing with Canadian residents to buy real estate in Ontario as a long-term investment.", "An apartment building on Kingston Rd. in Toronto, which sold last year for $300,000, was recently purchased by Japanese interests for $1.3 million. Such buyers will not be discouraged by a 20 per cent surtax.", "In addition, any foreign company can buy land, withhold it from the market for four years, develop it and then resell it to Canadians. The profits can then be exported from Canada without the payment of either the land speculation tax or the increased land transfer tax.", "The proposed change in the land transfer tax is but a pale reflection of the recommendation made by the select committee on economic and cultural nationalism.", "The committee said that the ownership of land by other than Canadian citizens or residents should be prohibited. Indeed, how much more of our heritage must be sold off before this government will take really decisive action?", "Even a complete prohibition of foreign land ownership and an effective tax on speculative land profits can only slow the rise in the price of housing. In order to reduce and stabilize housing costs in Ontario, the provincial government must ensure that there is always an adequate supply of serviced land available for residential development.", "There has already been too much delay. Housing costs in Toronto have already risen by 50 per cent since the provincial Throne Speech of 1972, which promised bold action on the urgent housing problem.", "The provincial government has assembled almost 18,000 acres of land for residential purposes, as my leader has so carefully documented on many occasions. There are some 300 acres in Kitchener and some 3,000 acres in the area north of Cambridge in Waterloo region. There are another 1,300 near Oakville.", "These lands are being held undeveloped while the near-crisis that was reported last year by the Ontario Task Force on Housing is becoming more and more serious.", "This government has badly mishandled its land-banking programme.", "The Waterloo assembly removed about 3,000 acres of developable land from a market which was already suffering from a lack of supply. As a result, all the land prices in adjoining areas have increased and supply is almost non-existent.", "This government has delayed too long.", "The land now being held must be developed for housing needs immediately. If we are to reduce land costs, this government must also abandon its current policy of selling off its land holdings at the prevailing high market prices.", "In Metro Toronto, at the Malvern land assembly, building lots that cost about $8,000 to assemble, service and debenture are being sold by the province for twice that amount and more.", "Instead of using its land banks to reduce housing costs, the Davis government has been supporting high land prices and collecting its windfall gains like any other speculator." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. R. Good (Waterloo North)", "text": [ "Shame on the government," ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "This practice must end, but I doubt if it will end until this government ends." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. M. Deacon (York Centre)", "text": [ "They are the worst speculators of all." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "The provincial government should not be profiteering from the current land shortage, but should be selling its assembled land at cost in order to lower prices.", "A vigorous programme to provide serviced building lots throughout the province is urgently required. This programme should be undertaken by the Ontario Housing Corp.", "OHC should build the necessary trunk services for sewer and water as public utilities, and sell them to municipalities in much the same way as Hydro sells electricity to its consumers." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "It certainly can’t be the Ministry of the Environment. They won’t spend money on increasing services." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Shelter costs are soaring throughout Ontario and the primary cause, as the Ontario Economic Council noted last year, is the scarcity of developed land.", "The government must start treating the cause by developing its own land holdings and by initiating a land servicing programme.", "Although steps to control Ontario’s land costs are the most urgent priority, action is also required to reduce residential housing costs in Ontario.", "Land costs seldom account for more than half of the price paid by a home buyer. The balance is attributable to labour costs and building material costs. The building materials account for about a third of the total cost of house accommodation in Ontario.", "Mr. Speaker, the cost of residential building materials used in Ontario has jumped by some 24 per cent in the last two years. The provincial government has not only profited from these price increases through higher sales tax revenues but last year it added another two per cent to the ultimate cost when the rate of the sales tax was increased from five per cent to seven per cent.", "The provincial tax on building materials added about $101 million to housing costs in Ontario last year. A house priced at $43,000, for example, became $1,000 more expensive because the province added seven per cent to the cost of the lumber, nails, plaster, concrete and other materials used in construction.", "The sales tax on building materials is an inequitable and unjustified addition to the already high cost of housing in Ontario. Building materials used in hospitals, schools and nursing homes are exempt from the provincial sales tax. Building materials used in houses and apartment accommodation should be also.", "The provincial government should also be encouraging wider use of inexpensive housing forms, including mobile and factory-built homes. A pre-fabricated three-bedroom home on a $15,000 lot would sell today in Ontario for between $30,000 and $35,000. These are permanent homes, usually set down on a concrete foundation.", "A 500-unit community of factory-built homes just south of Barrie has been built to National Housing Act standards and it is so successful that another 150 units will be added this year. The low costs have made this neighbourhood into a popular retirement community as well. In the Waterloo area, a complex of 108 factory-produced homes was completed last month.", "But, Mr. Speaker, the building codes of most cities bar such housing not because of structural specifications but because of house and lot size restrictions. Municipalities demand oversized lots, wide streets and the highest quality of services because of their heavy reliance on property tax as a source of revenue. Low cost housing on smaller lots means lower property tax revenues. I would suggest that more communities follow the example of Kitchener by changing the standards and building good quality housing." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "Is that up or down?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Satisfactory; I think that is the important word,", "The 1974 Ontario budget discussed inflation only in a province-wide context and ignored both the role of regional development as a counter-inflationary force and the related problems of regional disparities in prices and economic growth.", "By focusing Ontario’s growth on the Toronto-centred region, the provincial government has bled people and jobs from other parts of the province, particularly the north and east. As a result, unemployment rates in those parts of the province are unnecessarily high and unnatural inflationary demands for accommodation have been created in Toronto and nearby centres. While the area between", "Oshawa and Burlington has a 10-year growth rate of 31 per cent, the population of Kingston is dropping by one per cent per decade, and the population of Timmins is declining by seven per cent." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. C. J. S. Apps (Kingston and the Islands)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, did the member say the population of Kingston was dropping one per cent per decade?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "That is the information I have." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Apps", "text": [ "That is absolutely wrong. The member had better check his figures." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Perhaps the member for Kingston and the Islands can enter the debate and correct me if the facts are incorrect." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Apps", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, I will correct him now." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "The member for Kingston is no more of an authority than the member for Kitchener." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Apps", "text": [ "I sure am because I live there. I know what the population is in Kingston.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Apps", "text": [ "The population has increased by 10,000 people over the last 10 years. It’s gone up 1,000 each year." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Well, that is the information I have, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Apps", "text": [ "That’s a far cry from decreasing one per cent per decade." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "If it is incorrect or not completely accurate, I appreciate the information given by the member for Kingston and the Islands." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Apps", "text": [ "I trust the member’s other statements are not as inaccurate as that one." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "I think the member will find they are quite correct. The Kitchener and Guelph areas have grown by about 35 per cent in a 10-year period.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Worton", "text": [ "It is due to the Liberal members, that is." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "But Peterborough and Thunder Bay grew only six per cent.", "Northern Ontario’s population has dropped from 11.6 per cent of the total provincial population in 1961 to 9.9 per cent last year; and the area east of Oshawa is growing only about half as fast as the Toronto region. This concentration of growth in one small part of the province hurts all regions.", "The provincial government must decentralize Ontario’s growth and correct the serious regional imbalances that are occurring in our economy." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "All the figures are suspect now." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "I am quite sure, Mr. Speaker, that even the Solicitor General will realize that his part of the province is growing much more quickly than are some others." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "Good members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Worton", "text": [ "What can one attribute to them?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "Part of the solution will be in relocating some provincial government activities to these areas. Moving the Ministry of Natural Resources to the north, for instance, would not only stimulate the northern economy but would also result in more responsible government.", "A government-run land servicing programme, like the one I suggested earlier, would permit more orderly growth throughout the province. Specifically, it could decentralize growth pressures by providing inexpensive land for housing in eastern and northern Ontario.", "An effective programme to decentralize growth must also include stimuli for industrial development and employment opportunities in the north and east. These will require fundamental changes in the economic policies and development priorities of the provincial government.", "The Ontario Development Corp. should be transformed from a grantor of funds to an initiator of businesses. ODC should work with private and public agencies to identify development opportunities and carry new projects to the stage where conventional business organizations are prepared to fund and manage them. This would also confront the problem of foreign domination of Ontario’s economy by adding to the number of Canadian-owned enterprises and by developing Canadian managerial skills.", "Regional variation of tax policies is also required as part of any serious programme to overcome regional disparity. As one incentive, the five per cent tax credit for investment in machinery and equipment which expired last year should be renewed, but only for goods that will be used in the regions east of Oshawa and north of the French River.", "When it was introduced in the 1971 Ontario budget, the investment tax credit applied to all parts of the province. At that time, the then Treasurer said:", "“This tax credit approach to stimulating investment, economic growth and job opportunities in Ontario has major advantages over alternative measures. It will have an immediate impact because it produces immediate tax savings to companies that invest in economic expansion. It does not reduce the value of capital cost allowances. It is simple to understand and administer.”", "Such an alternative is still required in the north and east, but this Toronto-centred government has again ignored those parts of the province.", "The north, as I have mentioned, has 9.9 per cent of Ontario’s population, but produces only 5.2 per cent of the manufacturing shipments in the province. In the east, where some 16.7 per cent of Ontario’s residents live, the value of manufacturing shipments is only 8.5 per cent of the provincial total. A five per cent investment tax credit for companies in those regions would permit them to reduce their tax payments to the province by $5 for every $100 of investment in machinery and equipment and would contribute to a more even distribution of population and industrial growth throughout the province. The provincial revenue loss would be about $30 million.", "Regional price inequities must also be overcome if more people and industries are to be attracted to the north. The cost of living in Thunder Bay rose by 8.7 per cent in 1973, almost one per cent more than the price rise in Toronto, with the result that the gap between prices in northern and southern Ontario is now wider than ever. Local newspapers recently advertised pork for 99 cents a pound in Thunder Bay and 78 cents a pound in Toronto. Twenty-six ounce bottles of Pepsi were four for $1 in Thunder Bay and five for $1 in Toronto.", "Similar inequities exist in other parts of the north. A 24 oz loaf of white bread costs 41 cents in White River compared with 30 cents in Toronto. A sofa that costs $580 in Toronto is $70 more in Smooth Rock Falls.", "Some companies have formally established two-price systems in Ontario -- higher in the north and lower in the south. The Simpsons-Sears catalogue, for instance, lists dozens of prices for identical tools and parts that are anywhere from 50 cents to $25 higher in the north than in the south. These discrepancies exist partly because transportation costs to the north are higher. These different prices would not be a serious matter if incomes in the north were correspondingly higher than those in the south. But the per capita income in northeastern Ontario is $210 less than in Toronto, and incomes in northwestern Ontario are another $240 lower than that.", "The provincial government’s response to these discrepancies has been to equalize beer prices across the province. No comprehensive policies have been formulated. The government has not even stated that price equity across Ontario is its goal. It certainly has not indicated that it has any plans to achieve such a goal.", "One effective method of sharing cost differences throughout the province would be to reduce the rate of retail sales tax to five per cent north of the French River. The revenue loss from such a reduction would be approximately $37 million for the fiscal year 1974-1975. The same objective could be achieved by increasing the retail sales tax credit available to residents of northern Ontario.", "The government should also take steps to relieve the burden of high transportation costs for people who live in the north. Cars cost about $150 more in Thunder Bay than in Toronto and gasoline costs four cents a gallon more than in southern Ontario. The recent oil price agreement reached by the Canadian first ministers will equalize prices between the area east of the Ottawa Valley line and southern Ontario, but prices will remain higher in northern Ontario because of the cost of transporting products from the refineries.", "The importance of transportation to northerners is best measured by the large percentage of gasoline sales in that part of the province. Although only 8.5 per cent of the total passenger car registrations in Ontario are north of the French River, industry sources advise that 14 per cent of Ontario s gasoline sales are in the north. Gasoline costs in northern Ontario could be approximately equalized with those in the south by reducing the gasoline tax from 19 cents per gallon to 15 cents per gallon in the north. The revenue loss from this measure would be about $15 million.", "These losses of revenue entailed in these measures to promote regional development and to reduce regional disparity should be offset by further increases in mining taxes. The mining tax changes proposed by the Treasurer fail to secure an adequate return for the province’s mineral resources. While the new progressive rates will mean higher taxes for about six companies, another 37 companies will pay lower mining taxes. The mining tax, therefore, becomes a very unreliable revenue source, as it will now be extremely sensitive to the profits of a few large companies.", "However, the Liberal Party rejects the position expressed by the leader of Ontario’s third party that a 15 per cent royalty should be collected on the value of all mineral production in Ontario. Such a tax would fail to discriminate between high-grade ores that can be extracted at little cost and the low-grade ores which are far less economical to produce, with the result that many mines will be forced to close.", "The Smith Committee on Taxation reported another problem with royalties. Since 1908, Mr. Speaker, the province has not reserved the mineral rights whenever it made grants of land, and all reservations previously made were relinquished in that year. As the committee noted:", "“This sequence of events has had a significant effect on the form of mineral impost available to the province. It is well established that a province is constitutionally unable to impose a royalty on mineral production from privately owned land as such a royalty is construed to be an indirect tax. In 1928 the judicial committee of the Privy Council held that a percentage tax on the gross revenue from the sale of coal by a mine was an indirect tax which is ultra vires the enacting province.”", "The committee, of which I happened to be a member, concluded;", "“For administrative and constitutional reasons ... the imposition of a royalty or gross income tax on the output of Ontario mines is impracticable. A profits tax is the logical alternative.”", "However, Mr. Speaker, the provincial government is not taxing the real profits of mining companies, but an artificial profit figure that is arrived at after special deductions for fast depreciation and depletion. Instead, the mining tax should be applied against the companies’ cash flow, or real operating profit, less a portion of actual expenditures on exploration and development within Ontario.", "The difference between operating profit and taxable profit is often substantial. In 1972, for instance, International Nickel’s before-tax profit was $98 million less than its operating profit. Falconbridge had an operating profit of $94 million, but was taxed on a profit of only $18 million. Rio Algom’s before-tax profit was $20 million, or $15 million less than its operating profit McIntyre Porcupine Mines had an operating profit of $2.5 million, but for tax purposes this was reduced to a loss of $8 million.", "A mining economist has estimated that the 1973 operating profit of mining companies in Ontario was in the vicinity of $900 million. If these companies could deduct 25 per cent of their exploration and development costs which totalled $110 million in 1970, the latest year for which figures are available, and even if the average tax rate was only 20 per cent, a tax on operating profits would generate about $175 million or about twice as much as the revised tax is expected to produce. The province certainly must restructure its mining tax to capture an appropriate revenue from our mineral resources.", "With these comments, Mr. Speaker, I have outlined only some of the comments which the opposition has concerning the budget brought down by the provincial Treasurer last week. Other members of the caucus will be making comments, as they make their own contributions to this debate, which will not only elucidate some of the points which I have raised but will, no doubt, add many others for your consideration.", "Mr. Breithaupt moves, seconded by Mr. Deacon, that the motion before the House be amended and that all the words after “that” be struck out and the following added:", "“This House regrets the lack of any government policy to effectively deal with the problems of inflation in areas of provincial concern;", "“This House regrets the government’s failure to provide for an effective review of price increases by using a standing committee of the Legislature for such a purpose;", "“This House regrets the government’s failure to have a satisfactory policy to reduce housing costs and review rents and to stimulate new housing construction through such measures as the removal of provincial sales tax on residential building materials and the servicing of lands in provincial landbanks and other areas;", "“This House regrets the government’s failure to control exorbitant increases in the costs of regional governments implemented by this government; and", "“This House regrets the government’s failure to have any effective programme to equalize the costs of living throughout the province or to plan for the balanced development of northern and eastern Ontario.”", "Mr. MacDonald moves the adjournment of the debate.", "Motion agreed to." ] }, { "speaker": "Clerk of the House", "text": [ "The 10th order. House in committee of supply." ] } ]	April 16, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-16/hansard
ESTIMATES, MINISTRY OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES	[ { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "The estimates of the Ministry of Correctional Services. The hon. minister." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. R. T. Potter (Minister of Correctional Services)", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, as my predecessor, the hon. member for Kingston and the Islands (Mr. Apps), did last year, I intend to review briefly the major developments of the past year and to broadly indicate the directions in which we are going in the correctional field.", "The ministry’s annual report for the year ending March 31, 1973, was tabled on Tuesday, Oct. 30 last, and it is not my intention to be repetitious but rather to trace developments from where that document leaves off. In other words, I am covering almost exactly the fiscal year 1973-1974 in my review and looking forward principally over the period for which supply is sought.", "Before I do so, however, I want to pay a sincere tribute to the work of the member for Kingston and the Islands while Minister of Correctional Services. Preoccupied as I was with the Health portfolio, I confess that I had not realized the great deal of work that my colleague was quietly pushing forward without fanfare.", "It should be borne in mind that during my predecessor’s term of office such innovative measures as the development of group homes and the inception of co-educational programmes in the training schools in Ontario were initiated.", "The concept of volunteer workers in our system and the expansion of temporary absence programmes were also encouraged during this time, while the correctional centres in the adult training centres developed new and imaginative programmes.", "I was also surprised to discover just how much patient groundwork had gone into the preparations for the fifth United Nations Congress on the Prevention of Crime and the Treatment of the Offender, which is to be held in Toronto in September, 1975. Canada will be the host nation and Ontario the host province to over 2,000 delegates from around the world. I would like the record to show the sustained effort by the member for Kingston and the Islands to make the congress a success and his close co-operation with the federal government on the various details of such an undertaking.", "One of his efforts which did come to fruition during his ministerial term of office was the federal-provincial conference on correction, which was held in Ottawa Dec. 12 to 14, 1973. This meeting was the first of its kind in 15 years and was “an indication,” as he told the participants, “of the lack of communication which has existed in the field of corrections.” But his idea at that time won the day and the conference will henceforth be an annual event.", "The hon. member was instrumental in having continuing committees established, with Ontario staff representation, on parole jurisdiction; federal and provincial facilities rationalization; services programmes and funding arrangements for young persons in conflict with the law; criminal information and statistics; native offenders; and community-based resource or residential centres.", "In the years to come, it will become apparent to everyone -- as it is apparent now to those who work in this field -- that the hon. member for Kingston and the Islands was the man who led this ministry in the movement from institutional care to community care.", "Mr. Chairman, this is the all-star record of a remarkable gentleman, and I would like to take this opportunity to salute him for an impressive term of service to the people of Ontario and for a job well done.", "As a result of the federal-provincial conference, the Solicitor-General of Canada has assured us that the Ontario Board of Parole will, within the not-too-distant future, assume complete responsibility for the parole of all inmates in the correctional institutions of this ministry. Ontario has long urged that the continuity of care can be assured by giving to the jurisdiction with the responsibility for the institutional care of an inmate, the added responsibility for his subsequent parole supervision -- and the federal government has now conceded this point.", "However, as in health, Ontario is still fighting the battle of inequities in funding arising from the interpretation of the Canada Assistance Plan. Because they are regarded as “correctional” rather than “welfare” facilities, cost-sharing is denied to Ontario’s training schools and group homes. The provincial argument here is that the only thing that matters is the standard of care provided to the wards.", "The quality of our services is not in question, and our ability to meet the spirit of the Canada Assistance Plan is not in question. It is only the reluctance of the federal government to amend the Canada Assistance Plan at this time that stands between Ontario and its rightful share of assistance. I am confident that justice will prevail in the long run and that the Act will eventually be amended. In the interim, Ontario’s progressive juvenile programme will not be allowed to suffer.", "Considerable advances have been made this year in the treatment and training for juveniles. The reception and assessment centre at Oakville has proved its flexibility by being able to adapt to the changing proportions of the sexes coming into our care. Regionalization will no doubt further influence the role of this centre. In this connection, an internal task force has just reported on various alternative ways in which regionalization at the juvenile level might be further carried out.", "Let me stress, Mr. Chairman, it is not if further regionalization will come about but how and at what rate. All our recent reforms in the juvenile field -- co-education, direct home placement after assessment and so on -- have been successful. We believe we are on the right track.", "Now we have to determine the pace of change from what has been a predominantly institutionally-based juvenile system to what is now an increasingly community-based system. As our dependence on bricks and mortar diminishes our reliance on the skill, training and the ability of our staffs increases. There is clearly an optimum rate at which innovation can occur if it is not to be disruptive and as you are aware, Mr. Chairman, remarkable innovations were made during the year under review.", "The Cecil Facer School in Sudbury and Brookside School in Cobourg have become co-educational institutions. Glendale School, as members learned earlier, is to be phased out as a training school and will become a young offenders’ unit for the 16-18 age group. Now, Sprucedale School is gradually being tailored to become the regional training school for southwestern Ontario. The transition, as I said, will be gradual as indeed will be the case with all such changes.", "There are increasing numbers of ministry group homes. Twenty-eight are fully operational, three are just accepting their first wards, and two have just been acquired. I would like to add that these figures change very frequently and they represent a major change in emphasis.", "However, they are only part of the placement possibilities in the community now open to selected juveniles. As a result of our improved techniques of selection, a study carried out over a six-month period revealed that 19.3 per cent or nearly one in five of the juveniles coming into our care are now placed directly after assessment in a setting other than a normal training school.", "Some of the placement possibilities are: Their own homes, under appropriate supervision; foster homes; facilities operated by or through the Ministry of Health; contract group homes, sometimes referred to as special rates homes, where wards are provided with a particular kind of service that it would be uneconomic for the ministry to furnish directly.", "We are reluctant to invest in hardware when we can invest in skills. This philosophy underlines not only the changed role in Glendale -- and it will not be the last ministry building to be adapted to changing needs -- but also the ministry’s takeover of the former St. Joseph’s School, which is now renamed Ecole Champlain/Champlain School. With a 30 per cent French-speaking intake, this facility at Alfred plays a key part in our plans for eastern Ontario. Now as a new non-denominational regional school it will have a new lease on life with those of the staff who have chosen to remain having entered the public service of Ontario. Elmcrest School, the former St. Euphrasia’s, dosed on Sept. 30, 1973, and again, the success of the group home programme in the Metropolitan setting made this closing possible.", "In spite of what has been intimated in the press, I want to emphasize that there are no denominational overtones to these closings. We are confident that our wards are open today to the ministrations and spiritual guidance of dedicated volunteers as well as of chaplains. As our programmes become more flexible, as, for example, with Project DARE, which takes our wards into the wilderness, the mobility is seen as a unique opportunity for personal ministry. We expect spiritual counselling to be effective in whatever setting we may provide, be it an urban group home, a training school, or a camp on the fringe of a remote lake. We are gratified that these views of our purpose are so widely shared.", "Now, Mr. Chairman, this brief view I have given you indicates clearly, I believe, the fact that our training schools programme is developing on progressive lines, but I would like to say a few words about one aspect of our Training Schools Act which has always been a contentious issue, and this is section 8. This section permits the court to admit to the training schools those children who have not committed what would constitute an offence if they were adults, but who are deemed to be unmanageable or beyond control.", "Now while there is some weight to the contention that this section is a good preventive tool, it does raise some very fundamental questions about the protection of the child’s rights. In the past, consideration has been given to abolishing this section, and yet we were concerned as to what would happen to these children and who would care for them.", "Mr. Chairman, we are now seeking verification of our belief that sufficient alternative resources are now available in the community for these children and if this proves to be the case, then we shall seek an amendment to the Training Schools Act which would remove these cases from our jurisdiction.", "In the year under review, the audit programme has seen many changes. The Ontario Correctional Institute, replacing the Alex G. Brown Clinic at Mimico, was opened at Brampton on Sept. 20 last. It has accommodation for 200 male inmates, 48 in an assessment and classification section and the remainder in smaller treatment units. This new complex brings diagnostic, treatment, academic, recreational and accommodation units under one roof, with improved security arrangements.", "The assessment and classification section accepts first incarcerates between the ages of 16 and 24, who are serving sentences of over six months, from all regions of the province except the north, which is served by the Monteith and Thunder Bay correctional centres.", "In this new facility the treatment units are separate from the assessment and classification section. Now since this has caused some confusion in the minds of members, I would like to clarify the point that the treatment units take offenders whether or not they are first incarcerates, as long as they have enough time left on their sentences -- at least about 40 days -- to complete the treatment programme, as long as they have been assessed locally at the institutional level and recommended for treatment, and as long as they do not present a serious risk of escape or injury to others.", "As the facility has been phased in, demand for the services of the Ontario Correctional Institute has been great and there have been some delays, but we are quickly catching up with the backlog of cases now.", "Earlier today, Mr. Chairman, I had mentioned the fact that Glendale School will shortly be closing as a training school and will be used for young adult offenders. This enables us to take out of the Guelph Correctional Centre the 16- and the 17-year-olds and to free bed space at Guelph which we intend to use for the expansion of the neuropsychiatric centre.", "When this is done, it will mean that those sexual deviates and those who must be kept in a secure setting because of the danger they present to others, and who are presently housed in Millbrook, will have the opportunity to benefit from the expanded range of treatment services at Guelph.", "In the correctional centre at Guelph, I am pleased to report that the working conditions and the general atmosphere have continued to improve since the recommendations of the study of staff working conditions, or the Eastaugh recommendations, were released on July 5 last.", "The coming of industry to the Guelph abattoir, of which I will speak later, will have a further effect. The inmates at Guelph have already been involved in refurbishing the administrative offices and making structural improvements. The general atmosphere there has been very good as both staff and inmates have been engaged in a most productive period of activity over the last eight months or so. As I mentioned the other day, 10 of the 12 Eastaugh recommendations have already been implemented; another is being implemented now, while the twelfth, referring to days off in lieu of statutory holidays, is a matter for negotiation between the Civil Service Association and the government of Ontario. With the new changes that are being made I don’t think there will be any need for overtime work.", "The Niagara Regional Detention Centre was opened on June 20 last year and replaces the old St. Catharines and Welland jails which were structurally unsuited to modern needs." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "It’s better equipped than any hospital in Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "I can tell you it’s better than a lot I have seen.", "In all, nine of the 37 jails taken over by the ministry in 1968 have been taken out of service as correctional facilities, although some have been put to other uses. In the past year, we have closed the Cayuga jail and McCreight’s Camp near Sault Ste. Marie. The Goderich jail has become a museum and the Ottawa jail a youth hostel. Mr. Chairman, after seeing some of the antique jails in the province, I am sure that one would make a damn good museum.", "As you are aware, Management Board of Cabinet has given its approval for us to proceed with the initial construction planning for four new facilities to be located in Hamilton, London, and two in Toronto -- one in the east and one in the west end. The Toronto facility will be located near the ministry’s new main office which will be housed in the former Scarborough municipal building on Eglinton Ave. E. It is expected that our main office will move down there before the end of this year.", "The Maplehurst Correction Centre at Milton is now under way and will be ready for occupancy next April. New dormitories have been built at the Brampton Adult Training Centre. The Kenora jail women’s unit, whose purposes were described on page 16 of the 1973 annual report, is now in operation.", "These new facilities, Mr. Chairman, make possible improved programming. I should like to review some of the innovative things that have been happening in the programme area in the past year. But, obviously, the programme of most interest is the revamping of our industries to make them more applicable to the real world the inmate will find on release, and so I would like to explain our philosophy in this context.", "In essence, we plan to invite business organizations to form partnerships with us. We will provide the physical plant, together with the labour force, while the employer will provide the expertise in production and marketing management and the actual means of putting the products on the general market.", "We in this ministry will insist upon certain guidelines with regard to rates of pay and those aspects of working conditions which are at the discretion of the employer, but it is our intention otherwise to interfere as little as possible with the way in which the business is conducted. Our concerns are primarily that the rent paid by employers for our facilities is fair to the taxpayers of Ontario; that the type of work is consistent with our rehabilitative aims; that wages and other fringe benefits are commensurate with those prevailing in the industry for persons of similar skills; and that the employer will show willingness to provide employment elsewhere in his enterprise to suitable inmates on release.", "In regard to the Guelph abattoir project, we are presently negotiating with a number of companies in the meat packing industry. When talks have been completed we shall call for formal tenders, and we expect to sign an agreement by which the successful bidder will assume management of the plant within a month to six weeks after the date of the opening of tenders.", "At the present time, Mr. Chairman, the discussions are centering on technical matters. For example, the increased water flow and waste provision necessary to the increased volume of production and the plant rearrangement required before meat products can begin to be manufactured on the commercial scale that we envisage.", "We have been able to assure staff that no one will lose his job as a result of this change in management. We are working very closely with the Ontario Federation of Labour and we have no intention of undercutting the free labour market, either as to pay or other benefits.", "We intend to provide inmates with work experience which will replicate conditions in the community, and this means of course that production cannot be interrupted for institutional counts or traditional routines. In fact, the inmates will be as though they were on temporary absence without leaving the security of the premises, and this in turn implies that the greatest means of security will lie in the selection process.", "Fortunately, Mr. Chairman, we have had over 4 1/2 years of successful experience of selection for the temporary absence programme, and we have maintained a 98 per cent success rate, so we shall be able to apply the same techniques to the institutional industrial programme as it gets under way.", "By bringing private industry into our institutions in this way, we are moving one step closer to facing the inmate with real choices and real responsibilities -- which is why the temporary absence programme has been consistently more successful than institutional programmes, however well thought out. In the new industrial programme, we hope to impart good work habits, which will help inmates to obtain and keep steady jobs on release.", "Since they will be paid, the inmates will have to contribute to the maintenance of their dependents. They will pay for their board and lodging in the institution to the extent of $20 a week initially, and, of course, we shall increase that figure if inflation demands it. Inmates will also pay federal and provincial income taxes and they will direct the balance of their earnings into a savings account for their use after release.", "One change in institutional routines which will follow from the new programme is that we will have to provide counselling and educational programmes outside normal working hours. There will be further work for volunteers here, and the number of volunteers is now approaching the 2,000 mark throughout our system.", "The inmate population likely to be employed on many industrial projects is young, of low educational achievement, serving an average sentence of about six months, and having had a history of sporadic unskilled employment, interspersed with periods of unemployment. As soon as we began to discuss seriously the revision of our industrial programme we realized that we would, in the absence of appropriate safeguards, leave ourselves open to the charge that we were creating a pool of unskilled workers for subsequent exploitation at the minimum wage. We were determined, Mr. Chairman, to see that this did not happen, and so we set in motion a pilot project of pre-release employment planning for inmates at the Mimico Correctional Centre.", "We expect a full-scale version of this programme will be carried on side by side with an industrial programme at Maplehurst where there are 30,000 sq ft of space set aside specifically for industrial use. Having proved itself at Mimico, the programme will be greatly expanded and will become an after-work course at Maplehurst if industry moves in there.", "This pre-release employment plan is a very practical group programme in that all the selected members live together in the same dormitory and they may be working together for industry as well. The course is specifically geared to prepare inmates to find and keep a job on release and to counter the suggestion and potential exploitation to which they might be expressly vulnerable on the street. Dealing with fellow workers, relations with supervisors, personal appearance and objectional mannerisms, job safety, the Labour Relations Act and the Human Rights Code are all studied. Firms send their actual application forms to be filled out for practice; videotape is used for interview critiques; and there are unobtrusively escorted field trips into the community in this key life-skills course by which we set great store.", "In fact, Mr. Chairman, one of the most promising developments of the year has been the eagerness with which inmates have taken to the courses in life skills wherever they have been offered. I would refer members to page 20 of the annual report. For members’ convenience, I will have copies of the report brought to the House which the pages will distribute later.", "Inmates in four northern Ontario jails take part in such a life skills programme at North Bay jail. Launched last August, the teaching is done by the staff of Canadore College of Applied Arts and Technology. In this case, it is a combination basic literacy course and life skills curriculum." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. E. Stokes (Thunder Bay)", "text": [ "Would the minister repeat that? What does that mean?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "Just a second. The teachers come to the jail two afternoons a week and offer both group and individual instruction to the inmates. Transfers of suitable inmates have been made to North Bay jail from the jails at Parry Sound, Sudbury, Haileybury, and Sault Ste. Marie.", "At the Rideau Correctional Centre, Burritt’s Rapids, a token economy system is in operation. An inmate’s positive behaviour is rewarded through a token system which allows him to purchase certain privileges otherwise unavailable to him. An inmate must apply for this programme, just as he would apply for temporary absence. The work done here is non-commercial, making toys for non-profit organizations.", "However, Mr. Chairman, inmates who have graduated from this token economy programme are then eligible for the next step on the road to trust. They may become volunteer workers at the Burritt’s Rapids Regional Hospital, Smiths Falls, or at the Brockville Psychiatric Hospital’s geriatric ward. This part of the programme has proven so successful that the regional hospital management has offered employment to at least one inmate on release and is considering doing so to others.", "At Monteith Correctional and Adult Training Centre, a daycare programme is operated by the Ministry of Health, the Ministry of Correctional Services and the Addiction Research Foundation. Intensive group therapy is offered four days a week for eight weeks. There is also a weekend programme, taking two students at a time, at the Northeastern Regional Mental Health Centre.", "Also at Monteith, the Northern College of Applied Arts and Technology is co-operating in yet another variant of the successful life skills curriculum. In this case, inmates spend 16 full weeks at the college, six hours a day, five days a week, on separate temporary absence, and the Canada Manpower office at Timmins keep a close watch on their progress with a view to helping them find work later on release.", "Family counselling is now available to families of Toronto Jail inmates, in co-operation with the Junior League of Toronto, which operates from a church adjacent to the jail. At the Brampton Adult Training Centre, co-operation with the Manufacturers Life Insurance Co. made possible the production of playground equipment for the Sir John A. Macdonald Park in Kingston. Manufacturers Life Insurance gave $5,000 for the raw materials and also gave recreational and athletic equipment to the Adult Training Centre in appreciation for the inmates’ work.", "An important step forward, Mr. Chairman, both in staff training and inmate programme, was made this year at Camp Bison, a satellite camp of Burwash Correctional Centre. Forty correctional officers were first selected to take part in a programme of reorientation from a mainly custodial to a more rehabilitative role. By the end of April, 1973, four staff teams had been formed and were working with groups of inmates transferred from the main camp six miles away. For a fuller discussion of this programme, members are referred to Vol. 1, No. 5 of the ministry’s newsletter, and again the pages can supply copies of these documents later to any member on request. The most significant advantage of the programme has been its effect upon the inmate sub-culture, which has now been largely broken.", "And now, Mr. Chairman, I turn to the very imaginative concept of which mention was made in the Speech from the Throne, and that is the development of community resource centres.", "As you know, the group homes programme for juveniles has borne out our contention that many people within our training schools did not need to be institutionalized and could be cared for in the community. The success of our temporary absence programme has equally borne out our similar contention that certain adults, who do not constitute a risk to the public, can equally be supervised and supported within the community.", "The community resource centres will, in fact, be the adult equivalent of the group homes programme, i.e., they will house certain adults who under present circumstances are housed in correctional institutions of various kinds. The advantages are obvious. The man will be able to work to support his family and be given support and supervision at far less cost to the public purse than is involved in institutional care. To a large extent, the success of this venture will hinge upon careful selection but, with our temporary absence programme experience behind us, we are confident that only those who are suitable for this alternative to incarceration will be accepted.", "Now, Mr. Chairman, I should like to review briefly matters relating to staffing and administration.", "We have gone a long way to implementing the Botterell report. Appointments to the ministry’s Health Care Services Advisory Board have been made and the board is sitting regularly. Local health care services committees have been established for each institution. The nursing complement has been increased to the standard recommended in the report, and no jail or institution in the province is without nursing service. Physician’s remuneration for services rendered has been increased to conform with the Ontario Medical Association recommended fees; and relationships with university faculties in the health care sciences have been expanded.", "We, in the ministry, are co-operating very closely with the Ontario Provincial Police and with other police forces and we have used on a number of occasions the Canadian Police Information Centre network, which is the new information system based on the RCMP computer in Ottawa. We have found it particularly useful to advise local police of the presence of inmates in their communities on temporary absence, at times such as Christmas when the mails are particularly slow.", "Six senior members of my staff were involved recently in a four-week exchange programme with the Ontario Provincial Police. Their experiences included the investigation of a hit-and-run and a break-and-enter; they were formal witnesses to an autopsy; and they took their turn with bank surveillance and in patrol cars. Their respect for and understanding of police work has, I am assured, increased considerably. In return, six OPP officers have observed the complexities of our organization. We shall be extending this type of exchange throughout the justice policy field.", "We have made further progress in the hiring of ex-offenders. In fact, Mr. Chairman, we have hired 160 of them since we began the practice several years ago -- 86 were hired to the ministry’s regular staff, and others to temporary or casual appointments. These employees have been of both sexes and of several ethnic backgrounds; and the regular appraisals of staff performance, which are made in respect of all ministry staff, are particularly good in most of these cases.", "In the Kenora area, we are planning, in conjunction with the Kenora Fellowship Centre, a three-year community-institutional worker experiment. The selected native incumbent would work closely with community agencies on a crisis-intervention programme, particularly in regard to the many problems which arise when a parent is incarcerated and has a family in a remotely situated home.", "The amalgamation of the ministry’s probation and parole services took place on Jan. 1 of this year. The transition was a little smoother than we had expected, largely as a result of the extensive pre-planning which had been completed in the previous year. The volunteer programme within probation and parole has expanded greatly in the past year. Some institutional staff roles now include responsibility for liaison with volunteers.", "Since January of this year the adult and juvenile responsibilities in the probation and aftercare services have been completely separated and the services themselves have been regionalized. The localization of service within regions is now proceeding rapidly and we are encouraged by the favourable reaction of family court judges to these changes.", "In our career planning pilot project, 11 candidates selected by a nomination and regional screening process and a subsequent 2 1/2-day evaluation seminar, were enrolled in an intensive three-week training programme conducted by the staff of Centennial College, with a senior judge, a Crown attorney, members of the police and of our own senior staff as resource personnel. Immediately following this course, the trainees were posted to selected assignments in all types of institutions and in several branches of the ministry.", "These staff members are rotated to new responsibilities at intervals of approximately three months, and thus they acquire an overview of all facets of the ministry’s operation during their two-year tour of duty. Evaluation is continuous and, based on findings to date, a second course is planned which we hope will begin this fall.", "A new operations manual has been issued by the ministry. It embodies basic operational information within the framework of our modern corrections philosophy. The sections not only direct staff as to their duties, but also explains to them the rationale behind what is expected of them.", "We are moving toward automated information profiles for both inmates and wards and combining them with data previously accumulated, to give a complete picture of those in our care. The juvenile information system will be operational in May. The adult system will be tested in four institutions by Dec. 31 next and extended to all institutions by April 1, 1975.", "At the Ontario Correctional Institute, computer facilities are speeding up assessments, while at the main office we are now tied into the central computer in the Macdonald block. Commencing this month, all staff, classified or casual, were placed on the computer payroll system and we are using data processing for research, accounting and many other purposes.", "During the past year the research unit, as part of the planning and research branch, has expanded its role of providing service to operational branches. The research advisory committee has continued to review issues or requests around which research can assist in decision-making and programme planning. The committee has established priorities which complement new directions of the ministry, for example, greater utilization of community resources, alternatives to full incarceration and the differential training and uses of staff.", "Among the projects under way, two major longitudinal studies, one on the adult female and the other on the adult male, are nearing completion. Comprehensive information has been collected which will provide additional insight into the inter- relationships of social history, attitudes, behaviour and environment. One and two-year follow-up investigations after discharge have been completed.", "To summarize then, Mr. Chairman, this year has seen the ministry move from behind the high walls into the community, for those in its care who can function without danger to the public or themselves -- and my message is that they are many, while the dangerous offenders are relatively few. Our improved selection procedures and our growing experience of psychology and motivation have allowed us to make decisions which we would have hesitated to do in previous times when we knew less about human behaviour.", "Of 20,673 temporary absences which have been granted since the inception of the programme in August, 1969, 20,038, to be exact, have been successfully completed. If we include the 246 that were withdrawn because, for example, an educational trainee was not profiting from an academic course, that leaves only 389 revoked for disciplinary reasons, or a 98 per cent success rate, which continues to be maintained. These figures, Mr. Chairman, were up to March 31 or just 11 days ago.", "We look forward to the establishment and the development of the community resource centres I have described. We welcome the presence of increasing numbers of trained volunteers in our institutions. Our only problem relating to community acceptance is now in their initial opposition to the siting of facilities, and this is gradually diminishing, particularly as we involve ourselves more in community participation and dialogue in the planning stages of our proposals.", "The figures tell the story. Ten years ago there were 6,115 people under supervision in the community and 5,092 were institutionalized. Today, those in institutions number 4,747, which is down seven per cent, while those functioning in the community under supervision now number over 12,000, or up 120 per cent. The overall increase in numbers is, of course, a function of the population growth and of urbanization during the decade. In the whole of our correctional system, excluding jails, we now have need for only 685 cells, a figure which speaks volumes." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "It’s great politics." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "We are certainly looking forward to the United Nations Congress here next year, Mr. Chairman, in the hope that it will focus public attention on the real problems of what has come to be known as social defence -- the whole science of crime and corrections in a sociological context. In the interim, I would urge all members who can, to visit our institutions and to examine our various programmes in action. We have nothing to hide. We only ask that you come singly or in small groups so as not to change the situation by your presence.", "Finally, Mr. Chairman, let me say that although I assumed my present portfolio only a few weeks ago, I have already visited several of our institutions and have met many of the staff in those institutions and at main office. I want to say that I am truly impressed by the remarkable dedication and the commitment which has been shown by staff working in an area where there are certainly only very limited tangible rewards, where they are working day after day with those whom society has rejected and where they themselves are subject to many stresses and strains.", "I want to express my appreciation to them and to state that the citizens of this province are indeed well served by these men and women who quietly perform an often thankless and always arduous task.", "Mr. Chairman, I shall be delighted to try to answer any questions as we come to the individual votes after hearing the observations of the spokesmen for the opposition parties. Thank you." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Ruston (Essex-Kent)", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, I want to congratulate the new minister on his appointment and his very complex and detailed report of the ministry for the past year. I notice there are some comments in it that are probably in my remarks.", "I would also like to take this opportunity to thank the previous minister, the member for Kingston and the Islands, for his dedication to his work. I found him very co-operative at all times and felt that he had a sincere desire to do a good job. I want to congratulate him on the position he held for a number of years. As the member for Grey-Bruce (Mr.", "Sargent) always says, he was a good stick-handler and I guess he did a pretty good job in his portfolio anyway.", "For the new minister, having been relieved of the large portfolio he had as Minister of Health, I suppose this is more or less a much smaller ministry to look after. There are many important parts of it dealing with people with severe problems and probably it is just as important a position as his previous position but much less arduous for the minister.", "I would hope that with the minister’s background as a medical doctor, he will perhaps take some steps to improve the conditions in our institutions as far as medical treatment goes. I am sure he has been aware of the report made in 1972 by Dr. Botterell, the dean of medicine at Queen’s University, and of a number of recommendations in there. With regard to the girl who recently took her life in the Don Jail -- I take just one thing out of a quotation -- Dr. Botterell wrote in 1972 about this particular institution, “The psychiatric cell block and facilities and social workers’ offices are obsolete and physically scattered and communications are very difficult.”", "I think the new minister can certainly look into that report; there is a lot of room for improvement in some of the institutions.", "Also I would think the medical profession in Ontario should take some responsibility with regard to care in our institutions. Perhaps this is one area where they have been a little lax and I would think that the member, now that he is minister, can maybe get some co-operation in this line.", "I read recently the federal report on incarceration, and it felt we put too many people in jail. It had an interesting recommendation that the lawbreaker should meet face to face with those he has robbed, be forced to repay them and be excused from a jail term provided that he carries out his commitment. It might work in some cases but it would have to be kept under very close scrutiny by correctional and parole officers. It is an interesting comment and I would think that Canada having the record of putting more people in institutions than most other countries we may have to start looking at some other method.", "California tried some new methods in San Quentin by allowing all prisoners to move around at ease and work in workshops but they found that hardcore troublemakers caused so much trouble they had to put all of them back in cells to calm things down. They are now allowing the prisoners who are willing to behave to work and move around at ease, but have put the troublemakers in solitary confinement, each in his cell, and have told them they will remain there until they behave like other prisoners.", "What this means is they have tried the kid glove approach to all but have found that this treatment will not work with the hardcore criminal who will probably have to be confined for most of his term away from his fellow prisoners.", "I would like to comment on the matter of tendering the abattoir at Guelph. The minister did mention this in his opening remarks, but I question whether this is the right direction to be going. Should we not be looking at hiring two or three men with qualifications to operate this operation as a government project?", "It seems to me that the Ministry of Correctional Services must furnish the general manpower and that perhaps the whole operation should be under the ministry’s control.", "The hon. member for Wellington South (Mr. Worton) will be questioning the minister further in this matter, as he is very familiar with the situation and very knowledgeable, since he is close to the operations there.", "I question the ministry in its determination to keep the care of juveniles in this ministry when it should be under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Community and Social Services. The government, in its stubbornness in refusing to change its concept of juvenile care, is losing out on about $10 million that is available from the government of Canada each year to assist in the care of juveniles.", "I am concerned about the availability of care for juveniles in many parts of Ontario. I had a local lawyer draw my attention to a case he had of a 14-year-old girl who was pregnant and there was no place to have her stay in the local city. She was sent to a juvenile detention centre near Toronto.", "We should have small group centres in different parts of the province available for such cases, rather than sending them so far away to large detention centres.", "The family court judges are speaking out in these matters now, as they see firsthand the problems facing many from broken homes and those who are having trouble coping with the problems of day-to-day living in our fast-moving society. This proves also that divorce, separation and family troubles all should be dealt with in one judicial area, rather than the present system of different courts for each matter.", "There are reports of the high cost of prosecuting criminals. I have read that it costs as much as $50,000 from the time a crime is committed until due process is made and the person may be committed to an institution.", "I question whether society is prepared to accept this, and if we must find new methods to control these costs as they are escalating each year.", "In looking over costs of this ministry, I see the proposed budget for 1974-1975 is $13 million more than for 1973-1974. The increase from 1972-1973 to 1973-1974 was $10 million. In other words, we are increasing spending in this one ministry by about 16 per cent in one year.", "It is also interesting to compare the increases of the different departments. The rehabilitation of adult offenders for 1973-1974 was $7 million more than for 1972-1973, and the increase for 1974-1975 is $8 million, or 16 per cent, over 1973-1974.", "The increase for rehabilitation of juveniles in 1973-1974 was $5 million higher than in 1972-1973, or 20 per cent, while the increase for 1974-1975 over 1973-1974 was $3 million, or 12 per cent.", "Is this a squeeze on our juvenile care, or are we allowing more of them to be out on probation and it is not necessary to have them confined?", "The cost of the administration of the ministry for 1972-1973 was $3,517,000, and in 1973-1974 it was $4,106,700, an increase of $600,000 or 17 per cent, while the cost is now $5,391,000 for 1974-1975, an increase of $1 million or 20 per cent.", "When one ministry increases its budget for administration by 20 per cent in one year, is it any wonder we have inflation fanned by government overspending and, perhaps, wastefulness?", "The matter of paroles concerns the public a great deal. When they hear of a prisoner, after being sentenced to one year definite and one year indefinite, being eligible for parole after serving eight months, they wonder what the judge was thinking when he sentenced the person. It appears that judges may be having their authority overridden by parole officers in the civil service.", "The separation of first offenders and juveniles from repeaters, drug pushers, gun-toting holdup artists, rapists and pistol-whipping thugs is very important. I understand that with the building of new institutions, many of these facilities allow for this separation.", "The jails in many of the counties that are as old as 100 years -- and that includes part of the Don Jail -- are something of the past and no doubt we should be tearing them down. A strange thing with correctional treatment is that none yet has made very many steps forward in modem correctional services. At least with the many innovations, there have been very few clear lines of general improvement in the minds of those being held in many of the centres.", "However, I for one, feel we must continue to explore the many avenues of new thinking to improve the system. Merely keeping someone confined inside a wall is not helping the country as a whole, when you consider the cost of it. We must be prepared to continue to keep trying to do our best to get to the root of the problems facing those who are sent to these institutions.", "The minister in his opening statement last year said that 24 new group homes would be opened, and I would like to know how many more -- other than the original 12 -- have been opened.", "I would also like to know what work the regional administrators are doing and what type of programmes they have instigated and how many have been appointed.", "I would also like to know if the integration of probation and aftercare services has been completed.", "Further, I would like to know what progress has been made in the construction of the new detention centres in Etobicoke and Scarborough, as these units are to replace the old part of Toronto Jail.", "What progress has been made in the proposed detention centres in Milton, Hamilton and London?", "I should ask the minister about the famous jail in Owen Sound, as the member from Grey-Bruce will no doubt be asking him about his new jail in Owen Sound. I think that’s a question the member for Grey-Bruce likes to ask every year.", "Now, Mr. Chairman, those are all the remarks I have prepared at this time. I have a number of questions I want to ask the minister when we get into each individual vote." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "The hon. member for Hamilton Centre." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. N. Davison (Hamilton Centre)", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, before I speak on these estimates, I would like to express my appreciation for the efforts the former Minister of Correctional Services made in modernizing the correctional services to more nearly meet present day needs.", "I have been reading newspaper reports and recommendations of various grand juries as they inspect our correctional institutions. So many of them seem to have a common factor: the repeated recommendations which have not been carried out from previous inspections.", "Is it the practice of this ministry to ignore the grand jury recommendations; or how does it select the ones it intends to carry out?", "I notice, too, that one in five federal prisoners are the victims of mental illness, to varying degrees. I would suspect that this would hold true at the provincial level.", "Recently there was a case in Hamilton where the mother of a young man turned him over to the police on a fraud charge because he had mental problems. She thought he would receive needed care in prison. Hamilton’s Barton St. jail is a holding unit and, of course, the young man -- who was eventually released -- got no help at all.", "It seems to me that we should make provisions to analyse and take steps to treat the mental health of the people like this young man, and people with more advanced problems. It would also be sensible to provide separate accommodation for these people.", "Both the present Minister of Correctional Services and his predecessor have commented on the fact that the provincial government has employed more than 100 people who have been in the institutions -- and I think this is good. However, anyone with a criminal record has difficulty securing bonding. Metropolitan Toronto council’s appeal for a government bonding programme for ex-convicts was turned down by the Premier (Mr. Davis). I would hope that the ministry brings its influence to bear to obtain a programme similar to that in the United States. It works so well there that the fee has been reduced since its inception.", "Most progressively-minded people agree that rehabilitation of prisoners is the best protection the public can get. The temporary absence programme appears to be a big step along the way. I like the method where the inmate works outside and returns to jail when his day’s work is done, although I don’t think $10 per week allowance for meals and transportation is sufficient. I don’t know what the extent of the operation is, but I feel it should be initiated in all institutions.", "I particularly like the idea of this method allowing him to pay off his debts and provide for his family or, if single, to have saved money to help him when he is released. He returns to society free of the strain of being without funds and the pressure of trying to find a job immediately.", "Has this programme been made available to women prisoners? Both inmates and staff at the Vanier Centre for Women state that the female prisoner should have been placed on welfare in advance of her release so that she could leave with her first welfare cheque in her hand. Many, they claim, are forced to renew old friendships that were not good for them or to enter a life of prostitution simply to be able to survive.", "These are methods which extend the process of rehabilitation beyond the prison door and ease the return to a place in society and they should be initiated in our institutions across Ontario.", "The federal government has taken a similar approach in the William Head Penitentiary in British Columbia. There the inmates work 40 hours a week building a new jail, for which they receive the federal minimum wage. They will pay the prison for room, board and clothing and will pay income tax and unemployment insurance. The advantage of paying unemployment insurance, of course, will be their ability to collect from it if they are unemployed after their release.", "A survey of 1,070 adult first offenders in 1965 showed that in six years, by 1971, 64 per cent were repeaters. We have not solved the problem in the past. Perhaps these more imaginative human approaches will prove more effective.", "Canada has the doubtful distinction of having more people in prison per capita than any other country. Holland, on the other hand, reduced its prison population by 50 per cent and its crime rate has not grown beyond the population growth rate. There are only 50 men in Holland serving more than four-year sentences and they have almost ceased to imprison women and have only 26 serving any length of sentence. Instead of expanding old facilities and building new ones, Holland is deciding which prisons to close down.", "The deputy chief of the Dutch prison administration states:", "“We certainly have not stopped crime in Holland but we can claim it is not rising any faster than the population growth. I am not going to claim that we have the answer to the question of curing criminals, because our present system is still too new to know that. All I can say is that longer sentences and stricter prisons certainly did nothing to deter people from returning to a life of crime, so we thought it worthwhile to try something else.”", "This new approach was contained in a Prisons Act passed in 1951, but the drastically reduced sentences came about 10 years later. Judges were not instructed to reduce sentences but their public prosecutors may recommend sentences and it would seem that they are doing so.", "First offenders seldom are prosecuted at all. The facts are investigated in the normal way, but instead of taking the case to court the prosecutor will usually give the offender a formal warning of the consequences of breaking the law. Only a minority of those warned ever commit further offences. Those who do are usually fined or placed on probation with the possibility of a suspended prison sentence.", "Even after this, there is a great reluctance to jail and only the more serious or unbalanced offenders are remanded in custody before their trials, which usually take place before three judges within three or four months of arrest. Imprisonment is regarded as a failure of their legal system.", "Anyone serving more than four months is considered to be a long-term prisoner and considerable care is taken to send him to the institution most likely to rehabilitate him. The essential ingredient for successful rehabilitation seems to be very small prisons. Their largest jail holds 152 inmates.", "Prisoners can wear their own clothes, write and receive as many letters as they wish and elect committees which discuss complaints and problems with the prison director and his staff.", "The deputy chief said:", "“Prison is basically a return to the conditions of childhood, with the staff replacing parents as people who rule what you must do or cannot do. Our aim is to cut down the adverse effects of imprisonment to a minimum. We can do that not by making life pleasanter for the prisoners, but by modernizing it as far as possible. We must stimulate the prisoners’ independence, maturity and sense of responsibility, and believe me this puts more strain on the prisoners’ lives.”", "The Dutch have introduced a new grade of prison worker called a group leader. Many have already trained in social work, but there is an opportunity for prison officers to convert to this grade. The group leaders work with self-contained sections of in- mates. Often there will be four of them working with a group of 10 to 12 prisoners.", "Their feeling is that it is essential for prison authorities to realize that much of the outside world has changed in recent years. No longer can authoritarian governed islands exist in the midst of a society which is becoming more and more democratic.", "In Holland, prison officers have generally adjusted to the new ways remarkably well, except for a few of the older men and they are allowed to volunteer for an early retirement.", "A small step has been made toward the Dutch concept in East York where no charges are made for minor crimes. The experiment began in the spring of 1972 and covers police patrol area 5411 and was to continue for one year. The area was chosen because of its average urban makeup and because it had an average incidence of crime.", "I am not certain under which level of government this experiment was involved. If it was under the provincial body I would be most interested in learning the outcome of this interesting experiment, as I am sure other honourable members in this House would be too." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "Does the hon. minister wish to respond to the opening remarks?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, before we get on to the actual section by section, earlier the critic from the Liberal caucus spoke about the Botterell report. He asked about it and I think I made reference in my opening statement to the fact that we had acted on the Botterell report and we had pretty well responded to every one of his recommendations and at the present time we are interviewing applicants for a medical director of the programme.", "Other than that, as I told you earlier, the nursing services are provided now in accordance with Botterell’s recommendation. There isn’t an institution in the province without nursing services. Medical services are available, if not on a full-time basis, on a part-time basis and certainly on a 24-hour basis in the institutions. The other recommendations that Botterell recommended have also been complied with.", "Reference was made to the number of people in our prisons, and all I can say to that, Mr. Chairman, is for gosh sakes don’t blame the ministry for the number of people who are confined to our institutions. We have nothing to do with putting them there. As a matter of fact, we are attempting to provide other types of facilities as quickly as we can throughout the province.", "As you have already been informed, we have closed one of the training schools in the province, we are in the process of closing the second, and we hope we will be able to close the third within a short period of time.", "Much has been said about the 16- and 17-year-olds and whether they should be in our ministry or whether they should be removed from this section of the Act and come under the Ministry of Community and Social Services. This also is a subject that requires a great deal of consideration.", "One of the comments we received from the judges themselves and from lawyers is that as long as they are covered under this section of the Act, rather than commit these juveniles to a penitentiary sentence, the judges now commit them to one of our institutions because they feel they can get some training there. What would happen if it was under the Ministry of Community and Social Services, I don’t know.", "The hon. member spoke about the increases in our budget. When you are reviewing the estimates, you will see that these increases are due to increases in salaries, and I am sure none of you will say that this wasn’t overdue.", "As a matter of fact, there is great change in the philosophy in our jails. No longer do we have just turnkeys; we have people who must also be psychologists and social workers. They assume a much greater responsibility than they ever did in the past. Indeed, we must ask the Civil Service Commission to be continually reviewing the roles that they play in jails so that their salaries will be brought up to where they should be.", "The increases are also due to increases in employee benefits and in the cost of food, services, supplies, clothing and so on in the institutions; the implementation of recommendations as we have had in the Botterell report; the addition of moneys for our new programmes of staff training, to which you have made reference and which I am sure you will agree were needed; and additional moneys which have been pinpointed for research into new types of programmes to which again you have made reference and which I am sure you will also agree were badly needed.", "As you have stated, we took over the jails in 1988. Many of them were in terrible shape. We have spent a lot of money in trying to improve the conditions there, but I am sure we all appreciate that in some of them there is no way that they can be brought up to the level we want them to be at and they are going to have to be replaced.", "Quite frankly, I would have liked to have seen our budget go up by another 15 or 20 per cent if the funds had been available. Then we would have been able to provide some of these badly needed changes that you have been drawing to my attention.", "Certainly it has to be done. But one of the problems we are faced with in the province, of course, is that we have only so much money to spend. Having come from a ministry that was accountable for approximately 30 per cent of the budget -- and I never felt I had enough money there -- I can assure you it is not easy to spring the money loose. Priorities must be set by government; and in doing so, they made certain funds available to us in this ministry. We are attempting to see that we establish our own priorities and try to meet the most urgent needs as they arise.", "I think that pretty well summarizes the comments. If there are any that I have missed, or if the members have any to bring to my attention, I shall be glad to discuss them with you later. Thank you.", "On vote 1401:" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "Vote 1401 then. You will notice that there are seven items. Do you wish to discuss them item by item?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Ruston", "text": [ "Item by item." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "Item 1 then under general administration in the ministry administration programme." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Ruston", "text": [ "Would the minister know how many of the regional administrators have been appointed so far?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "There were six altogether, four adult and two juvenile, and they have all been appointed." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Ruston", "text": [ "What type of programmes will these people be developing?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "They will be responsible for overseeing the institutional programmes in the region where they have been appointed." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman (Windsor-Walkerville)", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, I wanted to ask of the minister if the ministry is thinking of using the services of those who are unfortunate in being held within his institutions in natural disasters, such as we had last year with the heavy flooding that took part in the southwestern part of the Province of Ontario, in the Essex county area, and any other type of natural disaster that may take place.", "I make mention of this, Mr. Chairman, from the fact that in the State of Michigan, when they were confronted with exactly the same situation as we were in Ontario they didn’t hesitate to use the services of those who happened to have some of their freedoms withdrawn from them for the time being, and there had been no complaints whatsoever with their experience. When we look into Michigan and think of Detroit, then we have all kinds of visions of the knife in the back, the bullet holes through the body, and everything of that sort. Rightly or wrongly, we immediately assume that those people over there are not going to be human and may behave in a different fashion from the Ontario inmate.", "The second point I would like to ask of the minister too, in relation to the use of services of the individuals that are in his institutions, is concerning the harvesting of crops. We have to import farm labour from the four comers of the earth. I am just wondering if it is feasible or practical to use services of the inmates of your various institutions to assist in the harvesting of crops and to assist in any general way that government may think it can put their services to use." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, we have, in fact, used inmates for this purpose. During the flooding last year they were used at Port Credit, Mimico, and in that part of the province. Several of them were employed there for several weeks. After that, they assisted with the veterinary services, I believe, of the", "Humane Society in that area.", "We have a programme of assisting with the harvesting of crops. This has been a concern to me as it has been to you, because as you are aware they bring immigrants in from other countries -- labour from Mexico particularly -- to do this. We have had a programme to assist farmers now for some time and we would be delighted if we could assist them again this year. We have made the groups involved aware of the services that we can provide. We expect them to pay the going wage as they would to anyone else. This is part of the temporary absence programme that we have developed for our inmates which has proved so successful. We are determined to continue to push this programme because, as I have said earlier, the success rate has been very good." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, if I may follow up on that item for the time being, would the minister care to elaborate just exactly where the programme was in operation during the past year, the number of people that were involved and the type of work in which they were involved? If the minister has such programmes going in the province, I think it is the type of a project we would like to see widely expanded in labour-short areas if it has been successful in the parts to which the minister is going to refer shortly." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, as far as the farming programme is concerned, it was done in the Guelph area where there were 38 inmates from Guelph and a number from Burtch. I haven’t got the total number. All we were asked for was 38.", "I think you’ll appreciate this type of programme is not the type of programme that every inmate is going to be allowed to go out on. We must select very, very carefully because we want to make sure that they aren’t inmates who are going to cause a disturbance, that they aren’t people who are going to take off and go AWOL, or who are going to do anything to disturb the programme so that we can’t continue it.", "At the same time, inmates at Rideau are working with the retarded, as I said earlier, at Smiths Falls and other hospitals in the area, and inmates at Brampton are working with the retarded in Peel county. If anyone knows of any farmers or anyone else who wants to employ this type of labour on a temporary absence programme, we would be delighted to hear from them.", "In the past few weeks when I was visiting some of our institutions, a request came in for help. It is a question of whether the correctional institutions have suitable inmates at the time when they are asked for. I would suggest that in any areas where there is a need and prospective employers are asking for help, if they’d get in touch with us, we’d be delighted to try to work closely with them." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "The ministry isn’t actually trying to sell the programme itself, is it? It is waiting for a request to come from the area in which there happens to be the labour shortage.", "Is there any merit in maybe widely expanding the salesman portion of the programme to see if there would be more areas of the province that could and would make use of the services of the inmates?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. Haggerty (Welland South)", "text": [ "Ask your colleague." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "Well, quite frankly, I am not prepared to put any funds into running an advertising campaign. I have more than enough uses for them at the present time, but I do think that all of us here have a responsibility to let it be known in our own ridings that this programme is available. We’d be delighted to work with everyone as long as members are aware that we can’t necessarily fill all the demands too." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "We did not intend the minister to advertise in newspapers for it, but to make the programme better known." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "Yes, I think it would be a good idea." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. F. Young (Yorkview)", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, I suppose this is the place to talk about the general philosophy of the department. I do want to say, first of all, that I appreciate the work that has been done by the former minister in this connection. I think he deserves a good deal of credit and I have found him very very helpful and co-operative.", "I also want to say that I have a very profound respect for the deputy minister. I believe that right there is a signal for a pretty good future for this ministry. I think you were very fortunate in securing the services of the deputy, and I presume he is backed up by a staff equally competent, although my connection with this department over the recent years has not been as close as it was some years ago.", "I was very interested in what the minister said -- I think he was speaking of the Guelph institution particularly at the time -- when he said that selected personnel have been trained to change from the custodial to the redemptive function. The whole correctional function is the one that is being stressed now.", "For years and years of course that has been talked about. When I first came into this House and had some responsibility in this department and was visiting some of these institutions at the time, the thing that appalled us was this matter of custodial care, that the men were there to make sure the prisoners behaved themselves and didn’t escape, and that was about it.", "At the time, successive ministers in this department talked a great deal about the change to correctional functions and that the custodial care was going to dim as the other emerged in all its brilliance. But for a lot of years we saw no real change in this respect. My feeling is that perhaps in very recent times there has been a change here and that the emphasis is gradually moving into something better than simply custodial things.", "Of course, tied in with that is the matter of training and the matter of salaries, which must improve. When the minister speaks of his wish that we had more funds for this ministry, then I can sympathize with him, and also when he says that we must have enough to meet urgent needs. But the priorities of this government perhaps are a little cockeyed when we think of the tremendous increase -- just to use one example -- in the income of the medical profession in the province, and yet we hold down the budgets of ministries such as this. There are places I think where these changes could be made and where a better balance could be achieved in the allocation of funds throughout the government itself." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Priorities are out of whack." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Young", "text": [ "That’s right. It is simply priorities out of whack and I think this ministry over the years has had too low a priority as far as this government is concerned. I hope that the minister and his staff are going to change this and going to be able to do it and I would look forward to that change.", "Now, the question I want to ask the minister particularly is what assurance we have at this point that this change is taking place and how extensive is the change throughout the institutions. Is it a change from the simply custodial function in institution after institution, or does it include the whole idea that we are going to really emphasize the retraining and the correctional function in these particular places?", "Certainly we are getting a lot of young people through these institutions over the years. Year by year we find them coming in and going out, and then returning. What can the minister tell us to give us some real assurance that this change is taking place at a rate which is commensurate with the need that we see in this ministry?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "Well, Mr. Chairman, as I said earlier in my remarks, I spoke about the new centre at Brampton and I said I thought it was a good indication of the change that has been taking place. Or we can go up to Guelph, one of our older institutions -- and I would invite the member to visit there. I was in there just two weeks ago, and Guelph has now been broken down into 12 smaller units." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "How many are in Guelph now?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "There are 550. It has been broken down into 12 units with each operating as a unit itself for meals and everything else. Although it is still one big building, it is really 12 small units that can be more easily handled in this way.", "We have had a big expansion in staff, as you are aware, which has accounted for some of the increases in funding; and particularly in professional staff.", "We are also planning -- I think I made reference to this earlier -- improved psychiatric facilities in our Guelph institution. We have looked at all plans for providing these facilities and now that we are finally able to close one of our training schools and make it into an adult training centre, we can relieve Guelph of about 150 inmates from there. This will allow us to convert one wing into additional psychiatric facilities to look after those patients I was describing earlier." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Young", "text": [ "May I ask the minister in that connection, have we full-time psychiatrists in Guelph and the other institutions?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "Not in the other institutions." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Young", "text": [ "How many do we have then?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "We have full-time staff in Guelph." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Young", "text": [ "Just Guelph?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "Yes, we have four full-time and 25 part-time, altogether. If the member is interested, here are some figures that perhaps will bear out what has happened over the past six years.", "From the psychiatric services standpoint, we have increased our psychologists, psychometrists and so on, from 34 to 51. Social service workers from seven to 59. Psychiatrists, themselves, from 13 to 29; medical officers are about the same.", "Nurses have increased from 57 to 92. Dentists and dental assistants have increased from seven to 23. Academic teachers have increased from 133 to 161. And while this is going on our inmate population has been dropping, as you are aware. Chaplaincy service has increased, too. But this gives you an indication of the emphasis we are putting on increasing the professional staff to provide the type of service that wasn’t available in the past." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Young", "text": [ "I thank the minister very much for the information. I can see the trend certainly is a good trend.", "In the days when I used to be wandering around these institutions, I would see doors with the title “psychiatrist,” “psychologist” or “social worker”. They would be locked, but I would be assured that they were going to have those offices occupied before too long or that part-time people were coming in from towns round about and filling those offices one day a week or half a day a week. Evidently that change is taking place. I understood it was; and I am delighted to get those figures.", "I hope that this is significant of a major change that is taking place, and I hope that this minister will continue his struggle as the former minister did to get funding for a continuation of this work. Certainly there is no reason why a province as rich as Ontario -- and we are hearing this from the benches opposite all the time; the richest area in the world and the best, and so on -- that surely this province can afford the kind of funding which is needed for the kind of process which must take place within this department." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "The member for Thunder Bay." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I want to engage the minister for a few moments on the kind of rehabilitation programme that is necessary in the northern part of the province.", "I don’t know whether the minister has had an opportunity to discuss the needs with probation officers in the northern part of the province, but it has been my understanding in speaking to people within the ministry that nothing of any consequence has been done to assist those who are incarcerated for minor offences, to get a kind of a rehabilitation programme much closer to where they live.", "Of necessity, they have to be sent to foreign and alien parts of the province where they don’t know anybody, where they cannot have visits from relatives and friends on a regular basis, where they can’t communicate on a regular basis with those of their own tongue.", "I am speaking specifically of native people who, for whatever reason, are incarcerated and spend even brief periods of time in correctional centres and facilities of that kind.", "My reason for speaking about this at this time, Mr. Chairman, is because I had a short dialogue with somebody in your ministry. His name escapes me at the moment -- he may even be one of the gentlemen who are sitting there advising and assisting you.", "The reason for bringing it up at this time is that there is a facility in northwestern Ontario that is available at the present time to do this kind of work. I am speaking of the radar base in Armstrong that is about to be abandoned by the federal Department of", "National Defence.", "It has been suggested by people who are socially conscious and socially aware of the need for rehabilitation services in the northern part of the province, that people -- particularly native people -- who need rehabilitation should be sent where they can have a rehabilitation programme -- a retraining programme that is more oriented to life as they know it and as they see it in the northern part of the province. If you were to conduct programmes where you would try to retrain them in home building, in trapping, in guiding, in resource-oriented activities, it seems to me that the possibility of rehabilitating this kind of offender would be much greater than if you sent them down to Guelph or sent them down to some of the other facilities that you have down here in the southern part of the province that are completely strange to them. They don’t feel at home, they have linguistic problems in many, many instances, and they don’t get the kind of opportunities for rehabilitation and retraining that they would get if you were to use a northern setting such as could be available in Armstrong at the present time.", "I am not an expert in this field, Mr. Chairman, and I don’t know all of the problems that are inherent in such an undertaking. All I do know is that there is a need for this sort of thing, there is a facility there waiting and I would like to hear from the minister or from some of his officials to see whether they have done any digging since my conversation with them to see whether this facility and this kind of approach would be meaningful and worthwhile and be conducive to the rehabilitation of the offender." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, earlier today in my introductory remarks I spoke about the Kenora area where we were planning, in conjunction with Kenora Fellowship Centre, a three-year, community-institutional worker experiment where the native incumbent would work closely with the community agencies on the crisis-intervention programme.", "I also mentioned that we were setting up a number of community resource centres in the province. Hopefully 16 centres will be established, and we stated that seven of these would be designed to provide programmes for native inmates and will be located primarily in the north. Kenora, Thunder Bay, Cochrane, Sioux Lookout, Sault Ste. Marie are all possible locations and of course they will be evaluated for individual centres.", "I am delighted to hear from the hon. member the proposition that there is a radar base up there that might be used and we would be delighted to look into that. I have told you that we have been given additional resources for these community centres. We are determined that we are going to develop a native probation project, as I described, in that northwestern part of the province, which will be involving local volunteers along with it, and if the hon. member has any suggestions and can be of any help to us in doing this we would be delighted to sit down with him." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Davison", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, I have a couple of questions I would like to ask of the minister.", "I wonder if the minister can tell us when they are going to start building the new facility in Hamilton. The other thing is, on the grand jury reports, do you people really do anything much on it? I mean there are a lot of the older jails on which the reports are coming in the same each year, year after year, and there doesn’t seem to be any satisfaction at all, nothing is really done on it. What is the problem?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "There is no problem. The funds have been made available, Mr. Chairman, The Minister of Government Services (Mr. Snow) informs me that plans have been finalized, that tenders have been called, they should be deciding on the tenders in June, and the building should be starting very quickly." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "The member for Windsor West." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. J. Bounsall (Windsor West)", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a couple of comments.", "I was very interested to hear last week that you were closing two of your training schools and possibly a third. I can’t remember -- and I couldn’t quite find it in Hansard -- how it was you were able to do that, where you are replacing the training school people who would normally be there? Was it in a group home?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "Group home programme." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bounsall", "text": [ "It was in group homes. My one comment there is that I assume that’s a much smaller group of people together and you will simply have more of those around the province in a smaller form. Well, I am glad that is taking that tack. My wife and I have been foster parents for quite some time and my interest in it derives from seeing the great need for foster home placements out of the Galt training school for girls some 10 or 12 years ago, and I am glad to see that you are moving into the small home setting.", "A couple of other points. I know two or three people in the volunteer probation programme in Windsor. They seem very enthused about being volunteer probation officers and working with the ministry there, and various people in the ministry there are quite interested in the programme and seeing that they function. But I gather -- and this feeling may not be correct on the part of the full- time workers there in Windsor -- that the department has rather a schizophrenic approach to this. They seem to run three or four months where they seem to get the feeling that the ministry is very much in favour of volunteer probation programmes and then things blow cool for three or four months, and they are never quite sure whether the ministry is really in favour of this or not.", "So if the ministry really is finding the volunteer probation programme a successful programme and wishes to expand it, or at least encourage it, I would be interested to hear the minister say that today and maybe talk a little bit about whether they intend to expand it or how in fact it is going.", "Third, this may well be an easier programme to run in federal institutions where the length of stay is a bit longer, but are there in our provincial jails, adult jails, training programmes such as I hear IBM is running in the federal system? IBM goes in and the person is on a full IBM course and comes out with training as if he had taken that course on the outside.", "Do we have various of these courses, particularly like IBM, or what other courses are being given in our provincial adult institutions? I would be interested in hearing about that aspect of the programme." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "Yes, Mr. Chairman, as the member mentioned it was the group home programme which proved so successful and allowed us to close some of our training schools. As I said earlier, we have closed one; we are now in the process of closing a second. We hope in another 18 months we will close a third and eventually get away from this type of programme. The group homes have been working out very effectively.", "As for the volunteers, I find it very hard to understand why anyone anywhere would say that we blow hot and we blow cold. I have been quoted on many occasions as saying -- I don’t care whether it is in health or in welfare or in correctional services, hospital services, you name it -- without the volunteers none of our programmes would be as successful as they are today. We are determined to continue to explore the volunteer programme and promote them wherever we can.", "If you have an area where there are particular problems, I wish you would bring them to our attention and let us know exactly where they are so that we can go in and see what the problems are. We are ignorant of any problems; we have thought it has been working out very satisfactorily. We would like to have it if you have any comment on that. What was the third one?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bounsall", "text": [ "Training programmes." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "The training programmes. Of course, as you are aware, we have short-term inmates who are sentenced to two years less a day. Many of them are in for six and eight months and by the time they get through the assessment centre they might have two or three or four months to serve. We cannot run a training programme which is going to qualify an individual completely, as they can in some of the federal institutions.", "At the same time I also mentioned in my introductory remarks that we are trying to encourage industry to come in with some programmes. They will even send in their application forms so that the individual fills out the forms and knows what he has to contend with when he gets on the outside.", "Perhaps they can assist in running some of these programmes and train them in the way they would be trained when they get on the outside. We are anxious to have the training start so they can continue when they get out. At the same time we are trying to be specific and say to these people we want them to run the programmes but there is no sense in attempting to run a programme unless they are prepared to offer job opportunities for these people after they get the training.", "The province has provided leadership in providing job opportunities. As I have said, we have hired 120 odd -- 70 odd within the ministry -- and I am determined that this policy is going to continue as we have started over the past two or three years." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Ruston", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, I wonder if I could ask the minister how many group homes does he have operating now? That was one question I wanted to ask.", "The other question was on how many students have enrolled in the correctional worker courses which were to be held at Centennial and Sheridan Colleges? Do you have anything on this?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "At the present time there is a total of 28 group homes in operation, 17 for boys, seven for girls and four co-educational. We expect to have an additional six in operation by this fall, three of which will be opening within the next month.", "In the community college programme we had 28 students, and of those 28, we were only able to hire 27 because the 28th is going to Europe." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "On the same topic, Mr. Chairman, I wanted to ask of the minister if he is familiar with the group called “New Beginnings” in the city of Windsor. They operate a small community centre home that helps young offenders and young men in need.", "They have in the past been funded to a certain extent by the Ministry of Community and Social Services. I wonder if the present ministry has reviewed the programme that they have; have they found it effective? If they have, are they considering it as far as financial assistance is concerned so that they could continue the programme that they originally undertook in providing services to young offenders in the Windsor area?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "As the hon. member has said, they were funded under Community and Social Services. We haven’t given any consideration to any funding.", "In the first place, we haven’t got the funds. In the second place, I think with this type of a service it has to be finalized where it’s going to be; whether it’s going to be in Community and Social Services or whether it’s going to be covered under this ministry. If it is, then we would have to take another look at it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "Personally, Mr. Chairman, I think it is better to be funding it under Community and Social Services because of the sort of stigma that unnecessarily seems to be attached if your ministry were funding it, but if there is any way that your ministry can help the organization, I know it certainly would be appreciated, not only by the organization itself but also by those who have to use the services of the organization.", "I want to ask of the minister if he is aware of the grand jury report concerning the Essex county jail, the Windsor provincial jail. One of the conclusions as a result of the inspection was that the safety of inmates were in some doubt in case of fire. Has your ministry looked into the report of the grand jury and taken any steps to overcoming the hazard to inmates in case of fire at the Windsor provincial jail?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "Yes, Mr. Chairman, I do get the copies of the grand jury reports and take note of them. If there is any recommendation in there that should be looked into, as there was in this specific case, then we do have it looked into to see what the story is.", "I must say that sometimes the grand jury in their deliberations don’t see all. They don’t see everything that can be seen in the short time that they have in the jail, but they have made recommendations to us from some of them and many of the things they bring to our attention are things that we already are aware of.", "I brought up here earlier that some of our institutions were built well before Confederation. It’s only since 1968, since we’ve taken them over, that people are saying something should be done about it. As long as it was the local responsibility then funds weren’t available and it was agreed that nothing could be done about it. Now that it is my problem, they say get the funds somewhere.", "In this specific instance, we are looking into it to see what the problem is, and we will certainly see that it is corrected if we possibly can.", "As far as the group in Windsor is concerned, I wonder if the hon. member would be kind enough to ask them to get in touch with us to see if there is some way that we can be of assistance to them." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "I’ll do that, Mr. Minister. I want to ask the minister another question. I have had the opportunity to meet the individuals who work for your ministry in the community. They had a whole series of comments that I thought should be brought to the minister’s attention, and if they can be corrected, they certainly should be.", "One of the comments was that your jails apparently are classified according to numerical order, so to speak, Nos. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Am I correct, Mr. Minister?" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "That’s right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "Now the superintendent of a jail gets 10 per cent more, according to his classification. If you are paying the superintendent more, are you considering paying the employees more because they work in a higher-class jail in relation to one that may be graded lower?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "As I said earlier today, the whole question of wages in the institutions is a matter that we are now discussing with the Civil Service Commission. It is entirely different from what it used to be. It is not just a matter of the classification of the superintendent of the jail and what he is getting; it is also a matter of the duties and responsibilities of all of those who are working in the institution. We are having discussions at the present time with the Civil Service Commission to try to put these people into the proper category." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "Another question concerns the custodial officers. Not only do they have their responsibilities in the jails or in the institutions, they also have added hazards and risks in the community itself. The person who has his freedom taken away sometimes attempts to take vengeance on the custodial officer, although the custodial officer is only performing the duties that he is assigned as a result of his employment.", "Are there funds available or is there any compensation to custodial officers and/or for their property that may be damaged as a result of a former inmate seeking vengeance on an officer? For example, the tires on his car could be flat, a brick could be thrown through a window of his home, or there could be just general harassment of a custodial officer of an institution on the part of a former inmate." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "I’m afraid I don’t know of any compensation of that nature that is available. I know that all of the employees would be covered by Workmen’s Compensation, just the same as anybody else. As for damage to their property, I would think they would be in the same position as you or I if somebody got mad and decided to split our tires.", "The deputy tells me that if it’s proven that some of their personal effects have been damaged, then they are reimbursed." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "That is good, because I was left with the impression that there was no compensation for them if they suffered adversely, either financially or otherwise, as a result of the performance of their responsibilities.", "Another comment was that they always seem to have to wait a long time before they receive a supply of uniforms or the clothing they wear. Is there any way of speeding up delivery so that they could be taken care of at the proper time?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "They get their uniforms when they are required, but unfortunately we don’t have anything to do with the supply houses, which have been on strike for six months. This isn’t a local problem as far as we are concerned. It’s a problem all over the country. We get them as quickly as we can, but as long as they are on strike, we can’t do much about it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "I would like to ask the minister if, in his estimation, the various jails throughout the province are understaffed. I was led to believe that they are understaffed. Whether this is so or not, I have no way of judging." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "Generally speaking, I think we are pretty well fixed up now. There are undoubtedly one or two weak places that need to be brought up to strength, but there has been such tremendous improvement over the last couple of years, it is hardly noticeable." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "The other topic that was discussed was cumulative sick leave. Is the ministry considering stacking cumulative sick leave, so that the individual could take it all at the one period of time or be reimbursed for it in the same way as they are in the teaching profession where the individual can collect on retirement or on leaving the job 50 per cent of the unused portion?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "I am afraid that is something that we don’t get involved in. That comes under the Civil Service Association." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "I see, right. The other matter that I wished to ask about was concerning the promotions. I was led to believe that if an individual used up his sick leave, then his opportunity for promotion was jeopardized. I hope that isn’t so." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "It certainly isn’t." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Minister." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "The member for Thunder Bay." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "Yes. I have one brief question of the minister. He did mention a number of psychiatrists and psychologists who he had on his staff. I am wondering what percentage of them, if any, are located in northern Ontario to assist in rehabilitating offenders." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "I’ll get that for you but I’ll have to take time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "Are there any? I don’t know of any." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "There are part-time ones but no full-time, but I will get the information for you." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "Anything further on item 1? Is there an answer coming?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "No, I will have to get it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "Is item 1 carried? Is vote 1401 carried?", "Vote 1401 agreed to.", "On vote 1402:" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "Mr. Chairman, under vote 1402, I wanted to ask the minister about two items. One was about a SHEP programme that happened to have been implemented in the city of Windsor. That was a self-help employment programme for parolees. They apparently fixed electrical equipment in a storefront in the community. It happened to be extremely successful. However it passed out of existence. Is the ministry considering funding a programme such as that once again in the community and/or communities throughout the province?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "I think that was under a LIP grant, Mr. Chairman. It wasn’t one of our programmes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "Yes, it could have been under the LIP programme. Now that that is not there, are you considering it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "Well, we haven’t been considering it but I would like to have some information on it that you might have for me." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "Yes, I’ll pass it on to you, Mr. Minister." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "Anything further on vote 1402?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "On the treatment and training of adult offenders, do you have anyone whose responsibilities would parallel the responsibilities of a parole officer to go into certain communities where there is a high incidence of recidivism, where people keep coming back?", "If you were to look at the dockets in the court, say at Armstrong, you would find that there seems to be a high degree of recidivism. A lot of them are for minor offences, but offences nevertheless for which they have to make retribution. If they can’t pay the fine, they are held for a certain number of days, usually five or 10 days. I am wondering if you wouldn’t consider putting people in the field where they would spend some time in preventive kind of activities, rather than wait for these things to happen.", "I can think of one or two communities in my riding that I won’t mention by name, but I will discuss it in private with the minister.", "I can see some efficacy in spending these kinds of dollars to try to prevent this from happening. I know that your probation officer can’t do this. He has to wait after the fact, so to speak.", "I’m wondering if we couldn’t provide at least a pilot project to see whether this kind of thing would help; to go into these communities that I have in mind where you chat with these people, to be more of a social worker, to remind people of their obligations to society and how debilitating it is to be hauled up in court for liquor offences, and minor offences like that but for which, nevertheless, they become habitual offenders. And they really don’t get any admonition from the courts. The kind of sentence that is given is never a deterrent.", "I’m wondering if you wouldn’t consider some kind of person who would perform this function, to go into a community to assist them in a good healthy outlook toward life and the law so that you get them before they commit these acts rather than after. It seems to me that this would be a much better approach than getting it after the fact. I’m wondering if you wouldn’t consider that kind of an approach in the instances that I’ve mentioned." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "The Indian volunteer probation programme that we have been talking about instituting in the northern part of the province is exactly that. Talking about the recidivism and so forth, we don’t feel that these people should be going back for five or seven days. That’s not doing a darn bit of good anyway. I think we have to appreciate, though, that within the ministry, our funds are, as you have said, for treatment after the fact; we haven’t got funds to set up preventive programmes. But what we would be interested in is setting up a type of programme you’re talking about. This Indian volunteer probation programme that we have been discussing setting up in the northern part of the province, is to do just that.", "Hon. Mr. Winkler moves the committee rise and report.", "Motion agreed to.", "The House resumed, Mr. Speaker, in the chair." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Chairman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the committee of supply begs to report it has come to certain resolutions and asks for leave to sit again.", "Report agreed to." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, before I move the adjournment of the House I would like to say that on Thursday we will return to the first item, and if that doesn’t take up the whole time of the afternoon we will return to item 10 again, the same estimates that we have been considering, and the House will not sit on Thursday evening. On Friday, we will deal with items 8 and 9 on the order paper and, I would think, in that order.", "Hon. Mr. Winkler moves the adjournment of the House.", "Motion agreed to.", "The House adjourned at 6 o’clock, p.m." ] } ]	April 16, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-16/hansard
FEDERAL COMPETITION LEGISLATION	[ { "speaker": "Hon. R. Welch (Provincial Secretary for Justice and Attorney General)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am tabling a letter and a report to the federal Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, the Hon. Herb Gray.", "This material expresses this government’s concern with respect to Bill C-7, An Act to amend the Combines Investigation Act. I would certainly wish that both this material and my comments this afternoon will be viewed as presented, in a spirit of co-operation aimed at helping shape economic policies which, of course, transcend federal and provincial jurisdictions.", "The federal government’s competition policy was first introduced in June, 1971, as Bill C-256, the Competition Act. In February, 1973, the Ontario government published its views on that initial legislative attempt. The present bill, Bill C-7, is the first part of the federal government’s two-stage legislative initiative designed to implement its revised competition policy.", "From the information made public by the Hon. Herb Gray, it is our understanding that this second stage will contain the main thrust of the federal government’s competition policy. Therefore, before I outline our concerns about this first stage, Bill C-7, may I reiterate some of the views made in our earlier report?", "First, we would appreciate a clear indication that the federal government has formulated its competition policy within the context of a comprehensive national industrial policy. Little explanation has been discernible as to how this proposed competition policy will coincide with the federal governments policies on taxation, tariffs, foreign investment and regional development, to name a few.", "Second, we are concerned that the second stage legislation may contain provisions potentially so restrictive as to prevent the desirable long-term restructuring of the Canadian economy. There is a need to give more priority to the benefits which can be achieved through industrial rationalization, such as its effects on employment and Canada’s ability to compete in international markets.", "And third, Mr. Speaker, the Restrictive Trade Practices Commission should not be given the authority to determine Canada’s industrial strategy.", "The combination in the Restrictive Trade Practices Commission of both a policy-making function and a policy-implementation function would result in that body being vested with almost unrestricted discretion. When stage II is introduced, the federal government should ensure that the objectives of the government’s policy are presented in clear legislative statements, and that there be timely and meaningful consultation with both the private and public sectors.", "Let me now turn to Bill C-7, Mr. Speaker, the first stage of this two-stage legislative process.", "This government is in basic agreement with many of the aims of stage I. We are pleased to see additional federal efforts to protect the consumer, and we agree that the services industries should, in general, be brought within the scope of anti-combines legislation.", "At the same time Ontario does have a number of reservations about this current federal legislation. They fall into three broad areas.", "First, there are the problems raised by overlaps in federal and provincial jurisdiction. There are a number of cases where specific practices and industries may be subject to provincial laws which overlap or conflict with the provisions of Bill C-7. For example, the province currently regulates a number of professions as well as a number of specific industries, such as loan and trust corporations and the securities industry. Similarly, areas such as telecommunications and transportation which are at least partly regulated by the federal government may also be subject to competition legislation. These overlaps create confusion and uncertainty and are detrimental to the conduct of business.", "Second, there are problems arising out of the enlarged scope and authority to be granted to the Restrictive Trade Practices Commission. While we agree that an administrative body is an appropriate forum for resolving some judicial issues, we think, however, that Bill C-7 should include specific rights of appeal on decisions of the commission to a superior provincial court with a tradition of experience with criminal matters. We are also concerned about the appropriateness of granting a subordinate agency the power to determine industrial organization and structure and to make policy which it will then implement.", "Our third point is that there are economic and legal problems arising out of ambiguities and uncertainties in Bill C-7. Ontario thinks that certain portions of Bill C-7 are unclear and will make business planning difficult. To some extent, this problem can be dealt with by redrafting portions of the statute, expediting passage of regulations, and by issuing rulings and policy guidelines. Our report placed before members today provides specific examples of our concerns.", "It is obvious that any federal competition legislation will have a major impact on the provinces. Not only are their economies directly affected, but new federal competition law will also in many instances necessitate changes and additions to provincial statutes. In view of these intergovernmental implications, it seems appropriate the provinces should continue to play a major role in the evolution and the continuing implementations of national competition policy.", "Beyond those three broad areas of provincial concern, Mr. Speaker, I would like to add the hope we have that the bill’s objectives for consumers and distributors might be clarified. For example, the possibility that a manufacturer might be required to supply all distributors so requesting, could militate against the responsible, often small retailer, who emphasizes full-line service and maintenance and who gives priority to Canadian goods.", "On a number of occasions, and again today, Ontario has stressed the importance of provincial participation in the development of economic policies which transcend both federal and provincial jurisdictions. Competition policy is clearly one of these areas. It is, therefore, in the spirit of co-operation that our views are put forward in this House this afternoon." ] } ]	April 11, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-11/hansard
STUDY ON FOOD COMPANY PROFITABILITY	[ { "speaker": "Hon. J. T. Clement (Minster of Consumer and Commercial Relations)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, there has been a great deal of concern with regard to increasing food prices and questions have been raised about the increased profits of food companies. In addition, there appears to be a great deal of confusion as to exactly who or what is causing the prices to rise. In response to these inquiries my ministry has been trying to get at the facts. We are preparing a two-part study on the profitability of the food industry to try and establish once and for all the accurate situation.", "I would like to place before the Legislature today part one of an analysis of profitability for 16 companies in the food industry which has been prepared for the ministry. This document, together with the supporting statistical data, covers the period from 1967 to 1972. Part two of this report will be made public in late June or early July, which will review and analyse 1973 financial results just now becoming available.", "The purpose of the overall study, Mr. Speaker, is to determine the extent to which food company profits contribute to rising food prices. We are all aware of last year’s rapid increases in food prices. Food company profits also increased along with the prices, making necessary an independent study of the relationship between prices and profit. I believe the provincial government has a natural role to play in providing such a study.", "The method we are pursuing has three important steps. First, we are attempting to separate the profits of food operations from those resulting from acquisitions, real estate transactions, or changes in federal taxes. If our objective is to trace the relationship between food prices and profits, food profits should first be isolated.", "The second step is to assess profitability in the base period of 1967 and 1972, when prices and profits were relatively stable, and compare these results with the profitability of the same companies in 1973, when profits and prices increased sharply.", "Our third step will be to compare the profit trends of the food industry with those of other industries having similar capital structure, size and business risk.", "By employing this approach, Mr. Speaker, we intend to avoid the errors made by many others who have offered their quick and ill considered analysis of the situation. We will not be comparing increases over a short time period in order to have dramatic appeal; nor will we jump to the conclusion that all increases are excessive, particularly if the figures indicate a return to previous acceptable levels of earnings rather than the achievement of new levels of profitability. We will also separate out as much as possible the impact of short-term tax changes and non-food profits to provide a proper basis for judging the relationship between food company profits and price increases.", "Our studies will not attempt, Mr. Speaker, to provide a final answer to whether or not food company profits are excessive. Certainly the comparison of food industry rates of return with those of other similar industries will be most helpful in determining the acceptability of food industry profits. However, the final determination on what is excessive must be made by the public -- and that is how it should be.", "An interplay between social and economic forces must decide the definition of excessive profits. The entry of new firms into an industry in which profits appear to be out of keeping with risk will occur naturally and tend both to define and to offset excessive profit situations.", "Investor expectations, corporate requirements for expansion and modernization, the cost of money and public confidence in business are further components in the final determination." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)", "text": [ "He sounds like an apologist even before he begins." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "One of the purposes of this study is to initiate an informed dialogue with the public and industry, leading to a fuller understanding of why profits are needed, how they occur and what level of profitability is considered acceptable by consumers, investors and company management. Perhaps it will be possible to come to a consensus for the industry’s rate of returns, taking into account all these viewpoints.", "Mr. Speaker, I would also like to point out a number of difficulties turned up by this study.", "The most important difficulty has been the inadequacy of some of the financial data published by many food companies. It seems to me that annual reports are written with too much emphasis on management accomplishments and too little accent on informing the public. Disclosure requirements are being met, but in an effort to please shareholders or frustrate the competition, valuable information is not being given -- information vital to the consumer.", "Companies should be showing us in more detail where their profits are coming from, why they are needed and where they are going." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. V. M. Singer (Downsview)", "text": [ "Is the minister going to amend the Business Corporations Act?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Most “source and application” statements are insufficient to assure the consumer as to corporate responsibility; nor is this the best medium to use for communicating to the public. Some companies even refuse to send copies of their annual report to non-shareholders.", "Communicating with their consumers should be a major objective of every company, especially where there is much widespread concern about rising prices. In the case of the food industry, the legitimate concern consumers have for what is happening to the extra money they are forced to pay for food has become an important social issue.", "Mr. Speaker, I intend in the very near future to write to the major companies in the food industry to suggest that greater co-operation be shown to the consumer seeking information, and that greater effort be given to explaining the facts about the profitability of their companies." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. J. Bounsall (Windsor West)", "text": [ "Legislate it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Part one of this study which I am tabling today for the benefit of all members is, I think, a sound beginning to a clear and complete analysis of the profitability of one of our most important industries. I ask the members of this Legislature, the public and the companies to give this report a dispassionate reading and then to write to me with comments and suggestions to direct our further investigations and to contribute to the conclusions. Because we intend to complete this study by July, I hope to receive these comments before the end of May.", "Mr. Speaker, a copy of this study has been sent to the federal Food Prices Review Board which is doing a similar study of the food industry. One of the questions that will naturally arise is the position of our government and the federal government should this analysis and subsequent public consensus indicate that some excessive profits are being made. At this stage, with many facts outstanding and many questions unanswered, particularly the question of how and where profits are being made, no conclusion or statement of position is possible. We must first see where this study leads us and then judge the public’s reaction to it.", "Thank you." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. S. Lewis (Scarborough West)", "text": [ "Is the minister tabling a study without any conclusions? Is that it?" ] } ]	April 11, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-11/hansard
PHASING OUT OF JUVENILE TRAINING SCHOOL	[ { "speaker": "Hon. R. T. Potter (Minister of Correctional Services)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the hon. members will recall that two years ago the ministry initiated a group home programme. These group homes offer a homelike atmosphere for those young people in our care who, in our consideration, do not require institutionalized care but who are unable to cope with the more intense relationships involved in the normal single-child foster home.", "The development of the programme in the past two years has served to illustrate that many young people, after a short assessment period, can function well in the community when given care and supervision.", "A year ago, due to the success of this policy, we were able to discontinue the use of Elmcrest Training School. Since that time the group home programme has continued to develop and as a result the ministry is now in the position where it can discontinue the use of a second training school. Moreover, I venture to say that providing present patterns of commitment to training schools continue we will be in a position, 18 months from now, to close a third training school.", "The phasing-out of another training school is, of course, in keeping with the ministry’s policy, with adults as well as with juveniles, of caring for and supervising those placed in its care in the community wherever possible rather than in a training school or in a correctional centre.", "The decision as to which school to phase out was not an easy one, but after most careful deliberation by the ministry’s task force charged with examining the alternatives, the decision has been made to close Glendale school in Simcoe as a training school and to operate it as an adult training centre. The programme which will be developed there will be very similar to that of the Brampton Adult Training Centre and will cater to young adults who are first offenders and who, without this new alternative being available would normally be housed in the Guelph Correctional Centre.", "Few alterations need to be made to equip Glendale school for this purpose, and it is anticipated that most of the staff now employed at Glendale will choose to become involved in the new programme for young adults. Staff who do not wish to work with the older age groups will be offered employment opportunities in other training schools." ] } ]	April 11, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-11/hansard
CONTAINERS FOR FARM PRODUCE	[ { "speaker": "Hon. W. A. Stewart (Minister of Agriculture and Food)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, you will recall that when objections were raised last fall to the requirements that new containers must be used by producers to market certain vegetables, I undertook to review the regulation with the Ontario Fruit and Vegetable Growers Association. When the Act was first introduced in 1937, it consolidated several existing Acts. Subsequent amendments to the Act and the regulations under the Act have attempted to keep pace with both the sophisticated demands of the consumer and the changing marketing attitudes of our fruit and vegetable producers.", "In the last 10 years Ontario’s fruit and vegetable industry has upgraded the quality of its packaging. This trend has been accentuated by the influence of United States packaging in the industry itself. This trend will undoubtedly continue in the North American market.", "Uniformity of packaging characterizes the milk industry and many other food products; returnable plastic milk containers commercially used for milk are not also used for some other purpose. This practice itself protects consumers from undue contamination and provides them with a greater assurance of a wholesome product. The fact that containers used for fruits and vegetables are essentially of multipurpose design, warrants a particular effort to ensure that fruits and vegetables are packed in clean, sound containers.", "We propose to revoke clause (h) of section 3 of regulation 293 of the Revised Regulations of Ontario, 1970, and the following is substituted:", "3. No person shall pack, transport, ship, advertise, sell or offer for sale any produce -- and this is under subsection (h) --", "(h) in a package that is damaged, stained, soiled, warped or otherwise deteriorated so as materially to effect the soundness, appearance or wholesomeness of the produce packed therein.", "This regulation is a revision based on both the present federal regulations and our own regulation on the packaging of farm products, adding the new requirement of wholesomeness.", "The regulations which require the grower to place his name plainly on a container which is being used for the purpose of selling produce, and which prohibit use of a container bearing another producer’s name, remain in force and will be more vigorously enforced.", "In light of the above amendments, subsection (4) of section 27 of regulation 293, which requires new containers only to be used for cabbage, cauliflower, celery and head lettuce, is revoked. This will permit the use of used containers for cabbage, cauliflower, celery and head lettuce as long as the containers are not altered so as to affect the soundness, appearance or wholesomeness of the produce.", "The amendment will become law on Tuesday, April 16, 1974." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Oral questions.", "The hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] } ]	April 11, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-11/hansard
STUDY ON FOOD COMPANY PROFITABILITY	[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon (Leader of the Opposition)", "text": [ "A question of the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations relative to his statement: Is it his intention to replace legislative action at this session with the further study that he has announced today, even though the first part dealing with pricing matters up until 1972 is tabled; particularly in view of the fact that food costs are going up, according to Statistics Canada, at the rate of one per cent a month; and that vegetable costs, it was particularly announced this morning, are going to increase in cost by 10 to 20 per cent, even though the farmers concerned will only get an extra cent and a half, for example for the peas that go into the can, while their costs are going to increase by 20 per cent?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "No, Mr. Speaker, it is not my intention to substitute the one for the other." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "A supplementary: Since the minister has expressed explicit concern for the reports from the corporations, why would he not give an indication that he is going to amend the business corporations statute requiring specific information that obviously he feels should be a part of the background in order for his ministry to make decisions and new regulations?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, as the Leader of the Opposition knows, there are mandatory disclosure requirements, mainly of a financial nature, that are already part of the Business Corporations Act and the securities legislation." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Right -- but the minister is not satisfied with them." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "The things I would like to see amplified are such matters as increased explanations, and policies of the company being made available in those same financial statements. It is something to consider, but it might well be out of the purview of the ministry insofar as compelling the amplification of all those matters that don’t relate primarily to financial structures pertaining to the company and its operations." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scarborough West." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I am working from memory, but as I understood the minister’s statement, he indicated that despite the study on all the material that was available, for a five-year period of 1967 to 1972 inclusive, no conclusions could be drawn. Is that what he said?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "No, Mr. Speaker. There are certain things pointed out by the study and, upon reading the study, members will see certain apparent conclusions that are arrived at by the people who prepared the study. We are only able to go to 1972 because a number of the 1973 statements are not yet available; hence my having to do it in the two-stage process so that we can bring it up to date when those other items of information are available to the ministry." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Grey-Bruce had indicated he wanted to ask a supplementary question before the hon. member for Downsview." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. Sargent (Grey-Bruce)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact the food industry is the biggest ball game in the world, why would the minister put controls on land before food?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson (Victoria-Haliburton)", "text": [ "Why doesn’t the member get Lalonde to do it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Well Mr. Speaker, I think before the hon. member starts talking or asking questions in terms of priorities, he should take a look at this report I filed today.", "It’s also interesting to note that investment analysts have for a period of time hesitated against recommending investments in certain major food industries in this country, and I think that when one takes a look at the statement some of the answers will become apparent, certainly pertaining to certain operators but not all of them." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I think the hon. member has had one supplementary; we will alternate.", "The hon. member for Downs view is next." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, could the minister advise why he feels he must go on bended knee to the companies to ask for additional information in their annual statements when it would be a simple thing to draft appropriate amendments and include them in the Business Corporations Act?", "Is the minister not aware that he has told us in his statement that he is not satisfied that the present provisions in the Act are sufficient to allow him to exercise a little muscle? Couldn’t he exercise muscle if he amended the statute appropriately?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "There is no question about it; I think we have the jurisdiction to do those things. What I am concerned about and what I meant --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Well then, don’t beg them -- do it!" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "-- in the statement that I gave today, Mr. Speaker, is that quite frankly in many areas the food industry has not, in my assessment and my advisers’ assessment, been conscious of its responsibilities on a public relations basis to the consumers of this province." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Well then, legislate it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "If necessary it is a possibility, but I have invited comments from members of this House as well as the general public; and after having had an opportunity to study those comments --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Oh yes, 12 years from now we will have another select committee." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Well, I don’t know how long it takes the hon. member to respond to my invitation." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "A supplementary: What about the minister’s responsibilities to the consumers of this province, never mind the supermarkets’ PR responsibilities? Is he saying that after a review of 16 companies in the field over a five-year period, in advance of the major profit period, he is still not prepared to take any action selectively to roll back certain prices? Is that the result of this study?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "No, it is not the result of that study." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. A. Renwick (Riverdale)", "text": [ "Or even to express a view?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The minister doesn’t even have a view after all that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] } ]	April 11, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-11/hansard
MUNICIPAL WATER AND SEWERAGE GRANTS	[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I would like to put a question to the Treasurer, Mr. Speaker, actually for clarification on a couple of his statements yesterday. Specifically, in the absence of the Minister of Housing (Mr. Handleman), can he tell the House what he expects to accomplish with the $11 million allocated to a special 15 per cent subsidy for servicing costs in certain regions, in view of the fact that it is expected there will be over 100,000 building starts?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. J. White (Treasurer, Minister of Economics and Intergovernmental Affairs)", "text": [ "We are going to give some additional financial inducement to municipalities and regions. It was to correct a distortion which has existed for a decade or more." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "How many lots would be connected?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "I would be glad to explain the background, if the Leader of the Opposition would like me to, although it may not be necessary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Yes. I was particularly concerned, if the minister will permit me, about two matters. First, how many serviced lots can be provided by the infusion of $11 million under this programme? And am I correctly reading his speech that he said specifically the 15 per cent reduction would be available only in regions or reformed counties of which we have none as yet?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "Yes, that’s right. The 15 per cent subsidy has been available only when the OWRC owned the asset. That idea was created when London built a pipeline from Grand Bend and when very serious objections were raised by the municipalities standing between London and Lake Huron. Their fear was that London would cut off their water." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "They have been doing that for years around here.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "To induce London to go ahead with the pipeline and leave the ownership of the asset with the OWRC, thereby allaying the fears of the municipalities between London and the lake, a 15 per cent subsidy was introduced.", "Now we have regional government and will have restructured county government in many parts of the province." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Not in London, they don’t." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "Had London and Grand Bend been in a region there would have been no need for that subsidy. Now that we have the regional governments we want to make available to them the same subsidy which has been available previously, even if they themselves own the assets. This comes in part in response to requests from the regions. It is going to make quite a difference to Toronto and certain other areas.", "May I, Mr. Speaker, abridge the rules slightly to say I have a bulletin that the member for Grey-Bruce is celebrating his 39th birthday today. In fact, the memo says 59, but I know that can’t be true." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "In this state of high good humour, I would simply again like to ask the Treasurer two things.", "Is it true that only 2,200 lots could be serviced with the $11 million, the 15 per cent subsidy? And why would it appear that any further assistance to municipalities that do not choose, or have not yet had the opportunity, to go into a regional government will be restricted? Surely this is an unfair application in the approach to the provision of services?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. M. Deacon (York Centre)", "text": [ "Why doesn’t it affect London?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "I don’t think it is fair to single out this one particular item of $11 million when one considers we have got an $8 billion budget, and when one considers there will be hundreds of millions of dollars expended on services of one kind or another to satisfy a number of priorities, one of which is to create more housing." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "The minister should have more of them in there." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "Questions on further details of this and related programmes must be put to the Minister of Housing. I do point out to the hon. member that we created 110,000 new homes in this province last year, an increase of seven per cent and the largest number in history.", "I point out also that while I had the responsibility we increased the supply of lots by 68 per cent over the previous year." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "It would have been increased by 100 per cent if the minister hadn’t --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "And that previous year was 40 per cent above the year before. I point out that we built 1.23 new dwelling units for every new family formed here in the last 10 years." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Why doesn’t the minister speak on that? Let him make a speech on that." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "To single out a particular grant is, in my view, completely distorting the reality of the overall integrated programme of the government. Now what was tile next question?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "All right, Mr. Speaker, with your permission, surely you would agree with me that the answer the Treasurer has made completely obscures the question and the answer that is required to the question. Why is it that in the Treasurer’s budget -- and he is the father of more of the regional governments than anybody else around here -- he would dislocate the economy of the province to the extent that those areas which do not participate in regionalism and do not choose to are not going to have access to this programme? Surely that’s an unfair approach?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "I think in certain circumstances one might consider broadening the programme. Let me put it this way: If Brantford wanted to build a big pipeline through Brant and hold the asset and control who used the water out of that pipe, does my hon. friend think the interests of all the municipalities in Brant county would be fully protected? Or does he think we might be wise to continue the existing policy of keeping the asset in the hands of the OWRC? Which?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "There is no way Brant would do it. The Province of Ontario should do it. That’s what I’m saying." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "That’s a little more telling, isn’t it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Would he kindly answer the question of why the funds are not available to the municipalities? What about the Brantford pipeline? Why doesn’t the government build it if it wants it? It has the money." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Why doesn’t the Treasurer answer the question? He really is ridiculous." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Would the hon. Leader of the Opposition --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "A supplementary: What did the minister mean when he said the programme might be broadened under certain circumstances?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "I think if one found a group of municipalities which were in full concurrence there might be a way, not now provided for in my budget -- or not now in my current thinking, quite frankly -- by which we might want to make some further changes to the programme. If there are such circumstances I would be very glad to have the details and to consider some further improvement on this kind of programme." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "A supplementary: In view of the fact the London pipeline is not owned by the municipality but is owned by the government of Ontario, why is he comparing that project with the 15 per cent assistance to those municipalities which will be doing the water improvements or the sewage improvements on their own? I understood this is a programme only for municipalities which wish to carry out a programme of servicing on their own, not using the Ontario government? Is that correct?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "Yes, that’s right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. C. MacDonald (York South)", "text": [ "A supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for York South has a supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "That pipeline has got nothing to do with it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "When the minister uses these figures of 68 per cent more lots in 1973 over 1972, and in turn 40 per cent more lots in 1972 than in 1971, what is the number in 1971 so that we can get some meaningful idea of what these figures are?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "I don’t know. As a matter of fact, now that I think about it, the 68 per cent may have been sometime before the end of the year. It is a figure that was very attractive to me and which is embedded in my cranium." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "It had nothing to do with the question anyway." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "There were 50 lots in 1971 and he is only up to 100 now." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "How about relating it to the price of houses?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "I have not been directly involved in this area --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "-- since Jan. 8 and I must say I’m a little vague about the figures. The Minister of Housing can certainly provide them to the House." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Really vague." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "A vague minister." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Grey-Bruce is next on a supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "In view of the fact that Grey county and Bruce county do not want regional government -- is this a pressure play to have us in there or what?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "That’s what he is trying to do." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "No. It’s an attempt to take a further restriction off the use of these public moneys insofar as the regions are concerned." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "As long as you are in a region." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "Now if there is a way of broadening the grant programme to take in all municipalities without establishing some kind of civil war between municipality A and municipality B, I’d be very glad to look at it. But I’m going to tell you, Mr. Speaker, in a lot of circumstances -- and the blushing that I’ve observed on the face of the Leader of the Opposition is further evidence --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Blushing?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "-- a number of municipalities are going to object to the largest municipality owning the water pipe that runs through their territory." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "He is trying to impose his regionalism policies using that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "And that’s not going to work." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Since the Treasurer is obviously adept at pulling figures from the air at the drop of a hat --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Adept? Fuzzy, not adept." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "-- what do all these figures amount to in terms of the actual number of additional units of housing which he must have assumed they would create in order to have chosen $15 million on one hand, $11 million on the other? What total of lots did the Treasurer have in mind which underpins this programme?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "The old grant programme encouraged regionalized municipalities to let the OWRC put in the facility and own the asset. The regions are big boys and they are accumulating additional resources, economies of scale and expertise." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "Show us where, show us where." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. R. Good (Waterloo North)", "text": [ "They aren’t accumulating anything." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "Bigger taxes." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "I saw no reason why these regions should be precluded from providing these services for their own citizens, particularly since the planning and the pipes and sewers are at the upper tier in the region." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Bigger bureaucracy." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "In meetings with the regional chairmen last fall this was a request from them, and since it did eliminate some distortion it seemed to me reasonable, and of course I hoped it might have the further advantage of increasing the supply of serviced lots." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "One more supplementary, Mr. Speaker?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "No. There have been six supplementaries, which I believe is reasonable. The hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] } ]	April 11, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-11/hansard
ALLEGED EXCHANGES OF PURCHASE OFFERS	[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I have another question of the Treasurer. Has he heard the reports, mainly from the CBC, of unwarranted exchanges of offers to purchase among and between real estate companies, which led at least some observers to contemplate there might very well have been a leak in the proposed new laws in the budget yesterday pertaining to land transfer tax and the land profits tax? Is the minister aware of those reports? Is he concerned, and if he is concerned, as many people are, is he conducting any investigation?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "I have not heard those reports. This bill is going to be brought forward today by the Minister of Revenue (Mr. Meen). We have a number of safeguards so that this kind of thing cannot take place. If people break the law in this instance then I expect they will go to jail." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "They could go to jail?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)", "text": [ "A supplementary question of the minister: In reviewing any attempts to claim benefits because of offers to purchase which are provided to set subsequent values, would the Treasurer undertake that those offers would be particularly reviewed, especially in this last week or two, to ensure they were in fact bona fide?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "The Minister of Revenue may want to comment on this, but let me say that an offer to purchase, in and of itself, does not establish value any more than it would have done for succession duty purposes over the last 50 years." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "If the Speaker will allow: So the minister is content that the regulations and the procedures which will be followed are so minded that they will certainly attempt to screen out that particular problem, if in fact it exists?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "Yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Does the hon. Leader of the Opposition have further questions? The hon. member for Scarborough West." ] } ]	April 11, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-11/hansard
REAL ESTATE TRANSACTIONS	[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "A question of the Treasurer, also of course flowing from the budget: Could the Treasurer indicate for the most recent year, presumably 1973 would do, what proportion of Ontario’s real estate transactions fall into the various categories exempted from the land speculation tax? That is, what proportion of transactions falls into commercial- industrial, what proportion into renovated property, what proportion into new dwellings, what proportion into second homes or second cottages, since all of those are exempted?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "The data we have is highly imperfect and I can’t give a good answer. The Minister of Revenue, once again, may have detail which I lack. We will, by the end of the year, have much better data affecting residential properties because of the new assessment programme and the information now required by the assessors. All of this information is going into the computer and will be readily available in printouts. Some time in 1975 we will have similar information for industrial and commercial properties.", "In the meantime we have an interministerial task force attempting to collect additional information, through sampling techniques and so on, indicating the ownership of existing lands, the nationality oi purchasers, the mix between different classes of real estate and such like." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The Treasurer will understand my supplementary. How does he arrive: (a) at a ball park figure when his statistics are, as he calls them, imperfect; and (b) how does he know it will have any beneficial effect at all on the rising prices of land, and, more important, on the rising cost of housing -- that’s quite a different issue -- when he has absolutely no idea what his exemptions exclude, and what is covered and what isn’t covered -- and he won’t have much on it till 1975 or 1976?", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "There are two aspects to it. First of all, there is no doubt but that some foreign investors are putting money into land in Ontario -- land and buildings --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "What about the speculative tax? The 50 per cent?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "-- because they see Ontario is one of the most progressive, prosperous and stable jurisdictions in the world." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Not just the world, the galaxy.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Shulman (High Park)", "text": [ "It is a tax which will never be collected." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "When I see him doing up his jacket, then I know for sure --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. M. Havrot (Timiskaming)", "text": [ "He’s just warming up.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "Now while it’s true we haven’t any exact number as to these cash inflows, we are sure they are significant --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Then this is just a hoax." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "-- and we believe this additional tax will mitigate this problem." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "How does he know?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "As the foreign demand is removed from the total demand curve, the upward pressure on prices should be very greatly decreased." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "No." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "If 20 per cent doesn’t work, then we’ll try something higher." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The Treasurer is not talking about the speculative land tax. He is talking about the land transfer tax." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "But we are Conservatives; we don’t want to start at 75. Now I am coming to the speculation tax." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "On a point of order, I am not talking about the land transfer tax." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The minister has the floor." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "Now, coming to the land speculation tax." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Which is the answer he sought." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "It’s once again true the data is not as extensive or as accurate as we would wish." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "At the same time, once again it must be recognized there is very considerable land speculation by Canadian residents.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Yes, all right." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "By introducing this very substantial tax which runs the total tax up to 81 per cent for an individual, 87 per cent for a corporation --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I understand." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "-- and 95 per cent for a non-resident, we think we will take most of the profit out of these transactions --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Sounds all right." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "-- and will induce moneys to go into equity securities in Canadian corporations instead." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Will it stop the sale of land?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "If these instruments are not powerful enough, we have other possibilities now being explored. For instance, it may be necessary to levy some kind of a property tax surcharge on idle lands which are being kept out of the market." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Has the Treasurer thought of buying land?" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Oh, no." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "This is a matter that is under consideration at the present time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "The government is just forcing the price of land up." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, a supplementary.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Downsview." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the minister can tell us if he has considered what effect this speculation tax is going to have on small builders who have been in the habit of buying two, three, five or half a dozen lots from a developer? If the tax applies to a developer, he is going to be unable to sell to the small builder because of the tax rate; so the small builder, it would seem, is very likely to be forced out of business.", "Has the minister given any thought to this and what is he going to do to try to preserve the small builder?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "Yes, we are aware of this potential. The Minister of Housing has had conversations with the development industry. Most of these development industries have a development capacity which is well in excess of their housebuilding capacity, and as the hon. member suggested in the past they have sold off these lots. Now there will be an inducement to retain the lots and build their own houses on them, even if that can’t be done fairly quickly.", "The minister will have the power to exempt certain lands from taxation if he is satisfied this is necessary to increase the stock of housing. And here again, I think if further details are wanted by the House in the question period, the question might go to the Minister of Revenue." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "What is left of the tax, then?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "What is left?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "A supplementary question." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Wentworth." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question: Doesn’t the minister feel the speculator is more likely to do one of two things -- either delay putting the land on the market, or attempt to build me tax into the final price in order to ensure he does in fact get back the profit he seeks and got previously." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "This is just a headline." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "This is a mistake that is often made. The price of a house has nothing to do with the cost of that house. The price of the house is established by the supply and demand equilibrium point.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "My house cost me $25,000." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "That’s almost second year economics." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "That was the cost. And today it is worth $50,000 or $60,000 or $70,000." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Today it costs that; but it is not worth it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "Now in what way did my cost affect the selling price? I had occasion to use another illustration in a meeting this morning, which was attended by the member for York South. The Edsel probably cost $75,000 per unit, and they couldn’t sell it for $3,000." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Is the minister going to answer my question?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "I’ve answered it. If the member can’t understand it, that’s his problem." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for York Centre." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "In view of the fact I agree with the minister’s statement that supply and demand is the key factor in the selling price of the house --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Does he think it’s not too much?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "-- does he believe that his $34 million increase in his budget for provision of serviced lands through the provincial programmes and the $11 million subsidy he just talked about earlier in this question period, is going to be sufficient to eliminate the province-wide shortage of serviced building sites?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "No way." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "And if not, how many building sites will he have to provide in addition to what he has in this budget to eliminate this shortage? Because he well knows well never stop this speculation with this tax unless we have an oversupply of serviced land." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "Well, this disappoints me. This disappoints me because the member’s leader said yesterday it was excellent.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "The leader of the Liberal Party said the land speculation tax was excellent." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. J. R. Rhodes (Minister of Transportation and Communications)", "text": [ "I don’t know which one is leader over there.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "He said it was excellent if it was tied to a major land serving programme." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "That is what the man said. There is some information in the budget statement about the increase in housing stock. Further details will have to be obtained from the Minister of Housing." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "We are talking about a shortage of building sites." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scarborough West. A new question?" ] } ]	April 11, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-11/hansard
HOSPITAL WORKERS’ WAGE RATES	[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "A question, Mr. Speaker, of the Treasurer: Is the Treasurer aware that the GAINS programme he has introduced now gives -- and we support the principle; it’s the anomaly that I’d like an answer on -- to the elderly and the disabled a level of income which in both gross and net terms in many instances is significantly ahead of that received by many hospital workers in this province who have families to support? Is he in a position to indicate when the government will provide an increase for the hospital workers to avoid the crisis of May 1?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "We are certainly aware of the anomalies. A number of possibilities are under study insofar as the Ministry of Health is concerned -- and that matter should be dealt with by the Minister of Health (Mr. Miller)." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. Dukszta (Parkdale)", "text": [ "Is the minister aware that the Ontario Hospital Association has written a letter to all of us here in the Legislature suggesting the danger of strike is imminent? Is the government prepared to grant some money to the hospital workers immediately?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "I don’t think I should say anything that is going to in some way affect the negotiations now taking place. It must be evident that every year we are engaged in negotiations with the public service of Ontario and other groups in the public sector. When a contract is negotiated, the funds are provided." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scarborough West? All right, supplementary; the hon. Leader of the Opposition should have the next one." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Yes, the question is really put because May 1 is the deadline. Surely if there is something the Treasurer can say or do to be of assistance in this regard it should be said and done. If he is afraid of interfering with negotiations, he shouldn’t be afraid, because isn’t he aware that negotiations have been interrupted, that the last offer is not accepted and it appears there will be an illegal strike -- illegal under the laws of the province -- beginning May 1 unless somebody, whether it is the Treasurer or the Minister of Health, says or does something?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Why does the Treasurer deliberately provoke us?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have said as much as is fitting. Further questions may be asked of the Minister of Health perhaps next week." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I think there have been sufficient supplementaries. The hon. member for Scarborough West. There are just a few minutes remaining." ] } ]	April 11, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-11/hansard
GAINS PROGRAMME	[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "What amount of money does the Treasurer expect to recover from the federal government for the GAINS programme?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "We expect to recover against those payments made toward the disabled and the blind. We do not expect to recover any portion of the costs for GAINS to persons over 65 years of age." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Why not?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. W. Martel (Sudbury East)", "text": [ "Why not? Barrett gets it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "In answer, I have as a recollection, $17 million for persons under 65 years of age." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "But why?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Forgive me -- tell me if I am wrong, I may well be -- but my understanding was that in the Province of British Columbia up to 43 per cent was recoverable of the additional amounts they paid to those over 65 when they introduced their programme." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "That’s right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "They are still fighting for 50 per cent but they are receiving 42 to 43 per cent, which is many millions of dollars and would make a substantial change to the Treasurer’s budgetary allocation." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "What’s the difference in the programme?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "The federal minister has complete power over whether or not to accept a provincial programme as having eligibility for the federal grants, that is within his discretion. Right or wrong, that’s the way it is. The British Columbia government had hoped to get back a very large proportion of its expenditure. Those hopes, I think, have diminished as negotiations have proceeded. The last report we had --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "It gets 40 per cent now." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "-- and we were in constant communication with the federal government as we developed this GAINS programme, was that they would pay only for this group of citizens and the amount of their contribution would amount to $17 million, I would like to assure the House we will get every dollar we can." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Supplementary: The minister then is telling the House he discussed this at each stage with the federal authorities, is that so? And is he further saying that really the Canada Assistance Plan will pay half the cost for those additional payments undertaken by the province associated with a means test or associated directly with payments predicated on the guaranteed income supplement, which is a means test?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "One of the requirements of the federal legislation policy is that there be a means test applied -- not the automatic needs test of GIS out a specific means test, which is to say the income received by a recipient and the costs of that recipient, which vary of course from Toronto to Lucan, Ont. Our officials were in touch with the federal officials. I think it comes under Mr. Al Johnson if I remember correctly. Mr. Al Johnson I think is the person responsible in Ottawa." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "The Treasurer was just too late. He was a year late. Barrett did it over a year ago." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "The information I have given the House is the best information we have to date." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Does the hon. member for Scarborough West have further questions? The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications has the answer to a question asked previously." ] } ]	April 11, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-11/hansard
U.S.-CANADA FREIGHT SURCHARGE	[ { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The question had been placed to me by the hon. member for Kent (Mr. Spence). The question was:", "Is the minister aware that the United States Interstate Commerce Commission approved a six per cent surcharge in freight charges being applied to Ontario destinations from American points of origin to the Canadian destinations, whereas this surcharge should only apply to the Canadian point of entry? 1. Why is this surcharge applied on goods coming into Canada? 2. What authority does the Ontario Highway Transport Board have with regard to such rates?", "Mr. Speaker, on Feb. 8 of this year, the Interstate Commerce Commission issued special permission allowing a maximum emergency fuel surcharge of six per cent to be applied on line haul common carrier rates. The proposal was initially made to the ICC by various tariff bureaus in the United States, including the Niagara Frontier Tariff Bureau, which in fact determines the rate level on many shipments between Ontario and the United States.", "The Niagara Frontier Tariff Bureau is a non-profit-making organization wholly owned by major motor carriers that serve within the United States and between the US and Canada. This bureau has the jurisdiction to set and publish rates between all US states and Ontario, excepting the states of Arizona, California, Utah, Colorado, Iowa, Montana, Nevada, New Mexico, Oregon, Washington and Wyoming.", "In the United States, the member carriers are allowed to develop and publish rates under the Interstate Commerce Commission Act. In Ontario, the rates are decided upon by the bureau in the absence of any other body. They must be filed with the Ontario Highway Transport Board, as of May 1, 1963. The bureau is not allowed to change their rates for a period of 30 days after they have been filed with the board.", "The tariff bureau does perform some useful functions, simplifying and reducing the number of tariffs that shippers use. However, the ministry staff is concerned about the apparent monopolistic nature of some bureaus and is investigating their impact on the trucking industry.", "In summary, the Niagara Frontier Tariff Bureau sets New York-Ontario rates as they are by default, because it is the only organized rate-making body. The Ontario Highway Transport Board does not have the legislative right to scrutinize and reject the bureau’s rates.", "On the subject of fuel increases, my ministry has been investigating fuel costs in the trucking industry. Fuel prices in Ontario have advanced since last September, and the truckers have lost their traditional bulk fuel discount. Labour costs are also increasing as of the beginning of April. Together, the labour and fuel increases account to close to the total rate of increase filed by the carriers." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. P. Spence (Kent)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, may I ask a question for clarification? Does the minister’s department get that six per cent for the distance of the journey in the Province of Ontario?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Well, the six per cent is the rate that has been set -- pardon me, it’s five per cent -- by the Niagara Frontier Tariff Bureau. So that goes to the trucking industry in the way of rates that have been established by tariff. These tariffs have been filed with the Ontario Highway Transport Board and approved. Basically, it’s a rubber-stamp approval, because the legislation is a little weak in this area, no question." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for York-Forest Hill is next." ] } ]	April 11, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-11/hansard
GO-URBAN SYSTEM	[ { "speaker": "Mr. P. G. Givens (York-Forest Hill)", "text": [ "I would like to ask a question of the Minister of Transportation and Communications with respect to a display ad which was published by his department in the Globe and Mail of April 9, calling for engineers in the $22,000-class to participate in our GO-Urban and light-rail transit programmes: Would the minister pray tell us what light-rail transit programmes he has been indulging in that he hasn’t told us about?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I believe the hon. member is well aware, and it has been stated before publicly and certainly it’s been said in this House, that the Ontario Transportation Development Corp. is very interested in all forms of urban transit systems, despite the fact that the Opposition have attempted to mislead the public of this province into believing we have gone into only one particular area.", "We are most interested in light rail; we are interested in buses, we are interested in straight railroads and in all forms of urban transit systems. So there’s nothing misleading about it. If the member hasn’t been aware of what’s going on, that’s his problem, sir; it’s his city." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Givens", "text": [ "What programmes has the government got?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Givens", "text": [ "Supplementary: It’s one thing to be looking into something; it’s another thing to have programmes. What light-rail transit programmes has the ministry got? I’m not asking him what it’s looking into. What light-rail programmes does it need an engineer for?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, there are light-rail programmes, obviously, that are being developed within the various municipalities. Certainly here in Metropolitan Toronto it has been indicated that light rail would very effectively serve certain areas. We don’t dispute that, and the Ontario Transportation Development Corp. is looking into that very system." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "That’s right, back off." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "What about Spadina?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for High Park." ] } ]	April 11, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-11/hansard
ALLEGED LOSS OF LIQUOR BY LCBO STORES	[ { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "I have a question of the Minister for Consumer and Commercial Relations, Mr. Speaker. Can the minister explain how the Liquor Control Board of Ontario could lose so much liquor that they have had to send letters out to all the stores asking if anybody knows where it has gone?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "The member has been around again." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Somebody is buying futures in booze." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Perhaps the hon. member might give me more information. I don’t know what he is talking about.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Is the minister not aware that last month the head office of the Liquor Control Board sent a letter to some dozen stores, asking if any of them know what happened and why there is such a shortage?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Yes, I do." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "More consumption." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "The introduction of self-service stores in this province has provided a great convenience to the consuming public." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "They didn’t know they had to pay." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Up to the time the self- service stores were introduced it was necessary, and always acceptable, that they balance right to the penny. But with the introduction of the self-service stores, pilferage has been a problem." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. A. Grossman (Provincial Secretary for Resources Development)", "text": [ "There has been some self-service and then some." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "By a lot of people with raincoats." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "There have been some who have taken the self-service invitation very seriously, and as a result the stock balance doesn’t necessarily come out with the right answer in view of the fact there are these shortages, and they are constantly making our managers aware of these shortages." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "How much is missing?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "I don’t have those figures right now, but I can provide them to the hon. member. It is not significant in terms of total sales, but it still is a problem insofar as the management of those stores is concerned." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "A few dozen cases." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I think in view of the fact there are just a few moments remaining, we should not entertain further supplementaries.", "The hon. Minister of Correctional Services has the answer to a question asked previously." ] } ]	April 11, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-11/hansard
GUELPH CORRECTIONAL CENTRE	[ { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the member for Wellington South (Mr. Worton) asked on April 8 whether action had been taken on the recommendations of the Eastaugh report on the working conditions at Guelph Correctional Centre.", "This report was made public on July 5, 1973, and at that time my predecessor (Mr. Apps) undertook to initiate action towards the implementation of 11 of the 12 recommendations, noting that the 12th recommendation was a subject for negotiation between the CSAO and the province.", "Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to report this has been done. Ten of the 11 recommendations have already been acted upon and the other one, recommending the installation of a PA system, is in the process of being carried out.", "I will have more details on the progress which we have made at Guelph during the estimates, but I thought members might be interested to know that our plans to divide Guelph Correctional Centre into 11 smaller units should be completed within the next two weeks. Much of the work on the physical alterations has been carried out by the inmates themselves at a considerable saving to the taxpayers of the province.", "Mr. Speaker, it is hoped also that when these changes are completed it will be possible to do away with overtime almost entirely, again at a considerable saving to the taxpayers and obviating the necessity for taking any action on recommendation No. 12 of the report.", "I would just add that the staff have been involved in these changes from the beginning, and the ministry is grateful to them for the role they have played." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications has the answer to another question." ] } ]	April 11, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-11/hansard
COMMUTER TICKET INTERCHANGEABILITY	[ { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for York Centre asked me a question on Tuesday, April 2, relative to the need for interchangeability of commuter tickets between Canadian National, Canadian Pacific and GO-Transit. I can only surmise that this may have arisen due to the recent introduction of the Toronto-Barrie CN passenger train service." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "We have it in Stouffville too." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "The fares being charged on this service were set by the railway transport committee of the Canadian Transport Commission and they have chosen to set single-trip fares that are slightly more expensive than GO Bus fares and monthly passes that are identical in price to the GO Bus monthly passes.", "With such limited service, I can readily see where the monthly pass would not be attractive to most commuters. However, had the committee set fares for a 10-trip book of tickets comparable to those offered by GO, I would think that interchangeability between CN and ourselves would be accomplished to a large degree and thus satisfy the commuters from that area." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "A supplementary: In that case, will the ministry agree to work with the Canadian Transport Commission to get common fares established so that they can be clearly interchangeable?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, when the Toronto Area Transit Operating Authority comes into being in the very near future --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "I am talking about now." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "-- fare integration will be one of the objectives, and this certainly would include discussions with CN, CP and the railway transport committee." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "But is there any reason not to go ahead with it right now, instead of waiting for this authority?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Well, I am not going to suggest we can go ahead with it this very day and attempt to put together discussions, but we do believe we can hold our discussions with all of the interested parties, including the carriers as well as the commission." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deacon", "text": [ "Don’t stand on one leg waiting for CN." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The time for questions has now expired.", "Petitions.", "Presenting reports.", "Mr. Taylor, from the standing private bills committee, presented the committee’s report which was read as follows and adopted:", "Your committee begs to report the following bills without amendment:", "Bill Pr11, An Act respecting the town of Ingersoll.", "Bill Pr17, An Act respecting Diamond and Green Construction Co. Ltd.", "Bill Pr23, An Act respecting Dominion Cartage Ltd. and Downtown Storage Co. Ltd.", "Your committee begs to report the following bills with certain amendments:", "Bill Pr9, An Act respecting the town of Strathroy.", "Bill Pr13, An Act respecting Tara Exploration and Development Co. Ltd.", "Bill Pr18, An Act respecting Victoria Hospital Corp. and the War Memorial Children’s Hospital of Western Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Motions.", "Hon. Mr. Stewart moves that when this House adjourns today it stand adjourned until Tuesday next, April 16.", "Motion agreed to." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Introduction of bills.", "Orders of the day." ] } ]	April 11, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-11/hansard
RETAIL SALES TAX ACT	[ { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Kitchener." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, my remarks on this bill will not be lengthy. There are a few points, I think, which should be raised as these various changes, reflecting the budget decisions, are brought into effect.", "It’s interesting, of course, to note that some $354 million has been raised this year over last year, the result of the increase, particularly, of the sales tax from five to seven per cent. In light of that great increase by which this tax becomes the largest tax collected by the Province of Ontario, we see a very minor return. That return of $43 million reflects two particular items, the items of personal hygiene matters which are, I suppose, of some particular consequence, and the matters dealing with the reduction of the tax burden on the costs of footwear.", "I suppose there would be some who would think that the price of $30 is, in reality, quite generous although I think the facts will show, as members are no doubt aware, that especially in young people’s shoes and in various of the athletic items -- the requirements of skates and various other kinds of specialty shoes -- the prices of these articles are substantially higher than one might ordinarily presume.", "It is, however, somewhat curious that this government, in attempting some changes in the sales tax, has chosen this particular area when there are other areas which are equally important. I would refer briefly to the situation with respect to the removal of the sales tax on building materials, a tax which brings in a revenue, no doubt, of about $100 million a year. Further, it is a tax, the removal of which, we believe, would have a substantial effect on the provision of housing and on real benefits for the people of the Province of Ontario. However, this is the choice the government has made.", "We had noted in earlier years in the review of the select committee on taxation -- of which I happened to be a member and of which the present Treasurer (Mr. White) was the chairman -- that there were other items which had been suggested for taxation at that point. It was, indeed, the view of the select committee, at least in majority, that the items to be taxed should include not only these items which are being removed today but also matters of children’s clothing and various other items which would be balanced with a tax credit. That has not been proceeded with although the tax credit programme of this government has been brought in as various tinkering has been done to bring certain credits to various sectors of the economy.", "I think that the recent budget has of course made some changes in the increasing of tax credits, which have probably resulted in some benefits to selected areas or our society.", "We, of course, are of the view that it would be better in the first place not to collect taxes rather than to collect them and then hand them back, as though the largesse of the government of Ontario was the source of these funds rather than, in fact, the initial removal of the items from the pockets of the people and from the purses of the people of this province.", "I do suggest that these changes should have been in effect immediately as of the date of the budget. As hon. members will recall in the last year we had certain increases in taxes which this party of course thought should not be imposed until, in fact, the legislation was passed. However the government chose to make those impositions as to increases of taxes on the date of the budget -- which is ordinarily the case, I must admit.", "If that is the case and the philosophy which this government is following, then we also believe that the deductions and the removal of taxes should be in effect as of budget night. Surely some consistency in the matter should exist and I would appreciate hearing from the minister when he has the opportunity to advise us as to the reasoning behind the withholding of the lowering of these taxes until the bill is passed. This especially in the light of the fact that there was the opportunity for persons to avoid other taxes last year because of the difficulty of increasing the taxes until, presumably, the legislation had been passed by this House.", "You will recall, Mr. Speaker, the turmoil that existed at that point and it would be interesting to know the reasoning behind the withholding of tax reduction at this point, when there was no problem in increasing taxes in the last budget.", "I’m interested in noting section 2 of this bill which refers as well to some particular items that are sold by charitable or various benevolent organizations. I note that only used items are referred to and I would suggest to the minister, following a discussion which we had, that some consideration might be given with respect to the sale of donated items.", "As the minister will recall there was some correspondence seeking an exemption from the collection of sales tax, particularly with respect to the Mennonite sale in New Hamburg. This is a sale of donated items of food, of clothing, of quilting, of all sorts of hand-made items that are sold after they have been donated and the full profits given to charity. I think an exemption has been granted to this kind of circumstances in the past and, indeed, the minister may have already dealt with this particular point.", "I am interested in his view as to whether some general legislation might be acceptable with respect to donated items or, of course, his reasoning as to why he would feel that it would be better to deal with this as an exception rather than a general item of legislation.", "As we look over the pages in this bill there is another section which is somewhat involved, but which I take to mean that a proportion of sales tax will be refunded to municipalities for the various kinds of amusements carried on in community centres in the proportion that those amusements bear in the net proceeds to the municipality compared with the gross admission amounts.", "This would allow the province to involve itself in the refunding of at least a certain proportion of tax, especially in circumstances where -- so far as community centres are concerned -- likely large groups of citizens are involved in fund-raising projects or whatever. And, of course, the province, to encourage that sort of thing, should give some tax benefit.", "I think particularly of the smaller community centres where fund raising, in order to improve these centres, goes on from time to time. I think that the minister is well advised to give a rebate of the sales tax otherwise collected as an encouragement to those who are involving themselves in developing programmes from which the net proceeds are going to benefit the municipality or the community.", "I don’t know whether these proceeds have to be given directly to a municipal organization or whether, for example, the board of management of a community centre or some other local service organization is able to benefit where the proceeds are being used, shall we say to put an extension on the local arena or to contribute additional facilities to a location that already is receiving or has received a benefit under the Community Centres Act. Perhaps the minister will be able to give some explanation to that point when the time comes.", "As I say, Mr. Speaker, the reduction of taxes against these particular items with respect to the retail sales tax is welcome. We think that this kind of a situation is to be encouraged, particularly as in family expenditures. These items bear a certain proportion in the overall budget of a family. I suppose there are some who might facetiously say that the government is simply attempting to encourage cleanliness as being next to godliness on the basis that even if we have housing problems or other problems, at least we’ll all smell nice and look clean. This may not be the only reason -- and I hope it isn’t -- because certainly there are greater tax areas that need reform than this particular one.", "However, I am content that some progress has been made in this area, even though it is not exactly along the lines that we in this party would like to see the sales tax used for. That tax remains a regressive one in many facets; however, at least some of the regressivity is attempted to be removed by this and by the various tax credits which have been proposed by the government.", "Accordingly, we are prepared to support the bill and encourage the minister to make further and other exemptions that will benefit in a much more effective way the people of Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for York South." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. C. MacDonald (York South)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I recognize that the rules of the House, strictly interpreted, narrow the scope of this debate to consideration of the few new exemptions; and I presume if one strays at any great length into a discussion of the sales tax per se, that I will be the victim of your gavel -- at least your voice if not your gavel." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Kitchener strayed somewhat, but I didn’t interfere and I don’t intend to with the hon. member for York South." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Yes, well, I shall not breach the rules of the House excessively." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Don’t be superficial." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "When the sales tax was originally introduced in this province we expressed our views with regard to it. I was interested at a meeting which I attended with the provincial Treasurer this morning and the number of groups who are reviewing the budget, to learn from him that authoritative independent outside sources have pointed out that the sales tax is 19 times more regressive than the income tax. Perhaps I can sum up my sentiment with regard to the sales tax per se, with a quote from such an authoritative source as the provincial Treasurer himself: “We are operating on a tax that is 19 times more regressive than another that might be applied.”", "Now, when you take that into account as the sort of context in which you are operating -- the premise for your start -- then an exemption list that looks lengthy, but which, Mr. Speaker, I draw to your attention, actually adds up to $43 million. This $43 million happens to be 2.9 per cent of last year’s take on the sales tax, which was a cool $1,487,000,000.", "So, as the hon. member for Kitchener has pointed out, last year we had something like $354 million more revenue coming in from the sales tax -- this highly regressive tax -- and yet, as a sort of Santa Claus effort, presumably in terms of or for the purpose or coping with the increased cost of living, the government now is going to create further exemptions which will hand back 2.9 per cent of that total take, namely about $43 million.", "The next point that I would like to make is that on the other side of the House we are periodically -- again from as high a position as that of the Premier (Mr. Davis) -- being accused on this side of the House of being hypocrites. Well, you know, when the government had a choice as to where they might cut off sales tax in order to meet public needs -- and they themselves admit that so much of the rest of their budget is directed to meeting the need for housing and cutting the cost of inflation, particularly in the housing field -- one wonders why they didn’t move in terms of removing the sales tax from building materials.", "And here I get to the hypocrisy of it -- the Tories in Ottawa are screaming for removal of the sales tax. They aren’t in power, so it’s easy to talk. The Tories here are in power. They don’t remove the sales tax. The Liberals here are screaming for removal of the sales tax. They are not in a position to do anything about it. The Liberals in Ottawa are in power, but they don’t do anything." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon (Leader of the Opposition)", "text": [ "But the NDP in BC are yelling about it and not doing anything. They are trying to get it both ways.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "So you see, Mr. Speaker, the loss of sales tax revenue from building materials, which presumably would be a very important ingredient in terms of reducing housing costs, is approximately one-half of what the government gained in the added amount in the sales tax last year. The government gained about $354 million. I understand the building materials would represent about $190 million.", "In other words, Mr. Speaker, obviously this is a bill which one should support because it is going to reduce the regressivity, and I presume one should also concede that it is going to reduce it on items that are bought by individuals, and that may have an added factor of progressivity. But the limited extent to which it is going to make that reduction and the particular choices which the government has made, and more particularly the choices which it has excluded, bring into question many of its rather high professions with regard to its desire to have equity in the tax structure in the Province of Ontario.", "But as I have already implied, we will support it as a tiny, baby step in the right direction with reference to individuals and the costs they have to bear in face of rising living costs today.", "There would have been another alternative, of a cost of living rebate that would be meaningful, but this government always proceeds on a bits-and-pieces basis rather than a comprehensive basis to meet a fundamental need." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Waterloo North." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. R. Good (Waterloo North)", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The reduction of $43 million in sales tax collected this year is a very small amount when one looks at the total sales tax revenue.", "I think we must briefly draw attention to the fact that the government, by its structure this year, even with this reduction in sales tax revenue, is moving to a larger and larger source of revenue from the retail sales tax field.", "It’s regrettable, in my view and in the view of this party, that the government collects more revenue from retail sales tax than it does from personal income tax. This should not be, Mr. Speaker.", "Last year there was $1,305 million collected from retail sales tax, and even with these reductions, Mr. Speaker, this year there will be $1,487 million. So the government will take $182 million more this year than last year in its estimates from retail sales tax, even with these reductions.", "I’m sure that the people of Ontario are thankful for these few reductions, but certainly the philosophy of keeping such a regressive tax as a major source of income is absolutely a wrong philosophy, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman (Windsor-Walkerville)", "text": [ "The wrong approach." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "The approach by government that is incorporated into the retail sales tax is not in the best interests of the majority of the people in the province. We accept the $43 million reduction but we do not accept the $182 million additional revenue which the government will receive because of inflation, and certainly inflation plays into the hands of the retail sales tax more than any other source of revenue within the province. Personal and corporate income tax is a much more progressive type of tax to receive and we regret that the government continues to have as its major source of revenue the retail sales tax, even with these much heralded reductions." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Wentworth." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have very few comments to make. I want to say that as I see the principle, it is whether we approve or don’t approve of the government removing sales tax from certain things. I want the House to know that I approve of the removal of the sales tax from the items mentioned in this particular Bill 27. I wonder a bit, nevertheless, about how the minister decided on which items were to be exempted from sales tax.", "Before I deal with that I want to ask the minister if he would be kind enough in his reply to explain the difference between taking a tax off and not dealing with it until after the Legislature has passed it and imposing a tax and making it retroactive.", "The member for Kitchener mentions they supported that last year; I think it fair to say we initiated the action on it last year. In fact, the discussion was very much centralized between ourselves in this party and the government; I think it fair to say we believed that a tax should neither be imposed nor taken off without legislative action.", "I am interested to know whether this is a change in the government’s policy with regard to the imposition of taxes as much as with the removal of taxes, and whether the government’s intention would be, from here on in, to give adequate notice of any intended change in the tax structure and not to proceed with it in the fashion with which it has previously been proceeded, and to give time for the Legislature to discuss and consider any proposed changes in the taxation policies of the government of the province.", "It seems to me, though, as I think about it, that during the budget discussion by the Minister of Finance, he indicated there were some things which were going into effect almost immediately. I am not absolutely clear how one draws an analogy between that and what the government is currently doing with regard to taxes that are being taken off. We will go through that argument again no doubt.", "I said last year and I say again this year that I think that any time the government alters a statute, it has to have one of two things. Either it has to have legislative approval prior to implementation or it has to have a bill or an Act in force which gives it the right to collect taxes provisionally during the course of debate. That wasn’t done by this government and I want to suggest that should have been done and I had hoped that it would be done.", "Let me ask the minister about two or three matters that are specific to this particular bill. How is it that he would agree to exempt powders and liquids for cleaning floors, walls, tiles, glass, metal, cooking utensils, etc. and yet he wouldn’t exempt the mops and brooms needed to do the job? He wouldn’t exempt the pails people have to have in order to do the job effectively. Scouring pads -- there are surely as many scouring pads used to clean cooking utensils in this province today as there are cleaning fluids? Why would he decide to exempt certain things, the intent of which is clear, and not exempt similar kinds of things?", "Let me ask him about another. He has exempted sanitary pads but has refused to exempt sanitary belts. Why would it be that he would decide to exempt one without the other since they are both obviously used one with the other and are necessary one to the other? What’s the rationale behind the changes? Did he sort of peek and stick his thumb in, take a few and say, “We’ll exempt these because they fall into a category which would meet public acceptance” and ignore some of the others?", "The reason I ask about those specifically is that those are the ones specifically mentioned in the retail sales tax bulletin. The bulletin spells out “To be exempt” and “Still taxable” so it’s obvious that the ministry thought a bit about it. If the minister thought a bit about it, maybe he can explain to me why toothbrushes are exempt but combs aren’t. I don’t quite follow." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. A. K. Meen (Minister of Revenue)", "text": [ "Toothbrushes are sanitary items. We cannot all afford marcelles." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Pardon?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Toothbrushes are sanitary items but we can’t all afford marcelles." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "I want to let him know some other things are, too. Let me suggest to him that disinfectants are still taxable but deodorants aren’t. Well, all right -- let me suggest to the minister that there are certain inconsistencies in the government’s attitude toward certain matters as being matters of necessity." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. W. Mattel (Sudbury East)", "text": [ "They put them in a hat and drew out a number of them." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Maybe the minister could consider broadening it ever so slightly and including two or three of the items I have mentioned, because I think a number of people would be interested in having that happen.", "There is one other point I want to raise with the minister that should be considered.", "The exemption on shoes is worthwhile, I am sure, and for the majority of people, who don’t buy many shoes over the course of a year anyway, the saving won’t be very great. But there are people who have foot problems and have to buy special kinds of shoes, which are obviously more expensive, and I am wondering whether there is a way that they can be exempt. I am not absolutely clear at the moment whether they can be exempted or not.", "Perhaps the matter falls into that category whereby if there is a prescription then they can be exempt, but if there is no prescription they can’t -- and there is no prescription needed for any replacement. So I would like to ask the minister if he would check with his officials, if he is not sure about it, and let me know about that at some future time." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "In any event, I think it is a bit of a mishmash. It is unfortunate that the minister couldn’t see his way clear to make the exemptions a little broader, but I think in the areas I have mentioned, and in others that I haven’t mentioned, that there are certain inconsistencies." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Windsor-Walkerville." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I wanted to make a few comments concerning this bill, endorsing the principle of the bill. Anything that will reduce the sales tax for the general public certainly is a welcome change. However, I do regret that the minister has not gone as far as I have attempted to get him to go when I asked a question the other day during the question period. This involves section 2 of the bill.", "I have noted that the minister has exempted footwear under the value of $30. However, I would have liked the minister to have included in that section on exemption for athletic equipment. Since 1976 is Olympic year, I think that we in the province, as well as in Canada, should go all out in an attempt to not only sell the Olympic games and the concept but also encourage maximum participation on the part of our youth. There are many amateur groups and organizations, on whom is imposed the seven per cent sales tax on equipment they buy to encourage participation on the part of all ages of youth, who should have been considered for exemption.", "The ministry does exempt purchases made by boards of education through exemption certificates. I think, Mr. Speaker, that same principle should apply to those athletic groups that are recognized and financially assisted by the Minister of Community and Social Services (Mr. Brunelle). In other words, we already have lists of groups that are considered worthwhile by the government as far as some type of athletic equipment assistance is concerned.", "The minister could have gone one step further in this section of the bill by extending exemption of sales tax to those organizations through some type of arrangement with the Ministry of Community and Social Services. Exempting them from sales tax wouldn’t amount to a substantial amount of money, Mr. Speaker, but it certainly would show the government’s greater awareness of and concern for fitness and a greater awareness of and concern for physical activity on the part of our youth.", "We do have a drug problem, sir, and we do have all types of other problems. At least if the individual is going to bum out his energy through good clean athletic activity, he may not get involved in some of the other less salutary types of endeavours.", "Another suggestion that I would like to make to the minister is where he mentions footwear, I think any type of orthopaedic footwear should be exempt from the sales tax regardless of the price." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "Right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "I don’t think we should limit that to $30. As long as it is for the physical or the health benefit of the individual, as the previous member made mention, it should be exempt from the taxation.", "In section 3 of the bill the minister is going to rebate to municipalities the sales tax collected from functions that have been conducted in community centres. I would suggest to the minister, rather than use that approach, the municipality and/or organizations that are going to conduct these activities apply to the ministry in the same way that an individual applies to the Liquor Licence Board for a special occasion permit. They apply to the ministry for a permit stating that they are going to conduct this type or that type of charitable activity in this or that facility and would the ministry send them an exemption certificate. All of this red tape and the letter writing back and forth, collecting the money, mailing it to the ministry, then asking for a refund, would be expedited and done away with.", "I offer those suggestions to the minister for his consideration and hope he does act on them. Thank you, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The member for Sudbury East." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the minister, if I might, for a clarification on something that is apparently lacking -- or maybe I am missing the point -- on children’s clothing. I have two points really. I am not sure why the government simply doesn’t take the tax all off, and that’s where maybe I am wrong. The tax is off children’s clothing, but I really don’t think so. And more importantly -- well, not more importantly, as that’s pretty important -- I am not sure if the minister has been buying children’s clothes of late in order to realize the tremendous increase in cost of those items for that group which actually needs adults’ clothing, but which is only 12 or 13 years of age. I don’t know if they grow bigger today. It certainly seems to be the case.", "I have had a lot of complaints about young people whose parents take them to buy clothing and in the children’s section simply cannot get the type of clothing that fits or the type of shoes that fit and consequently find themselves either in the ladies’ department or in the men’s department buying clothing that will fit, and paying retail sales tax on it.", "There has been rumbling about it, but surely there should be a way to work around this, using maybe official school student cards that most high schools have that have the ages of the young people on, so that we could get around that extra cost to those people whose children are too big. It seems to me to be a simple request. It may be a little difficult in working out the semantics to ensure that only those who are actually of age would derive the benefits, but it seems to me to be an area in which the government could move quite easily." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaks", "text": [ "The member for Essex South." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. A. Paterson (Essex South)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, in rising to take part in this debate, I realize at the present time the retail stores in Ontario are still collecting this seven per cent tax on all these items that are going to be excluded and which our party concurs in. It would be my hope that with the support that the minister is receiving with respect to this legislation, that we could proceed, not only through second reading today but hopefully into third reading and Royal assent later today so that when the stores reopen this Saturday that the public of our province may enjoy the benefits of this good legislation.", "I don’t know what the intent of the House leader is, but possibly the minister can indicate when he concludes the debate on second reading.", "Mr. Speaker, I speak as a merchant; and possibly as I stay in this Legislature longer I might qualify as running a non-profit organization. It’s getting close to that point. There are two points that I want to --" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "That’s under section 2." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Paterson", "text": [ "Right. I might qualify for section 2 in another year or two here." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "There might be a conflict of interest." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Paterson", "text": [ "Right. Well, I’m getting to that non-profit organization category." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "He’s laying the foundations for that right now." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Paterson", "text": [ "I may not have the conflict.", "But there are two matters I would like to discuss and I think the first is in relation to section 3, which deals with rebates to municipalities where sales are conducted at community centres.", "I guess this is one of the old chestnuts that I bring up from time to time -- and I realize it’s not in the bill -- and that is the matter of rebate for those persons who are doing the book work and making the collections -- that is, the retail merchant.", "I would hope that the minister, in his rebuttal, might state whether that is still being given consideration or not.", "And the second point is possibly a little closer to a conflict of interest in myself, although I guess as a merchant we are really doing the work of the province and we are not extracting funds for our own purposes when we collect the tax from the public.", "I believe in the ministerial statements regarding the retail sales tax exemption there was an indication that further thought was being given to exclusions in relations to children’s clothing. I happen to be in the retail fabric business and all fabrics and patterns and the necessary supplies in making a child’s garment are subject to the seven per cent tax. I realize that this would be a most difficult area to exempt.", "Possibly the minister is aware of a new organization in the province composed of both wholesalers and the retail establishments across the province, along with pattern companies and so forth. He might sit down with them some day and possibly come up with a formula that when a child’s pattern is purchased and the required length of fabric for the child’s dress is purchased and the sundry supplies, that possibly -- as with farmers -- a signature on a purchase for an exemption might be a possible way around this.", "I don’t know; but I know in my own experience I’ve had this drawn to my personal attention many times. A housewife comes in to buy fabric for a child’s dress and says, “Why do we have to pay tax when we can go next door, buy the ready-made garment, and there is no tax on the same?”", "There is only one other area of confusion in relation to the collection of tax and that is in relation to the retail selling on certain books -- instruction books -- and I feel that there should be some clarification put forth either to the printers or the distributing companies that issue these through to the retail trade.", "I believe the exemption is, if a book is printed less than four times a year it is not subject to the retail sales tax. It is most confusing and I draw this matter also to the minister’s attention and that of his officials and possibly something can be done in future legislation to clarify this.", "I think these are all the remarks I wish to make at this time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Any further hon. members wish to speak to this bill? If not, the hon. minister." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, to begin with I would like to thank the hon. members for their, I suppose it’s fair to say, universal support of this bill -- for a varying number of reasons, of course.", "I’ve heard the argument that the sales tax is 19 times more regressive than income tax, and so any reduction is better than nothing. If indeed it is 19 times more regressive, than a very small reduction in the impact of the Retail Sales Tax Act on our people has a very significant effect on them.", "The question I might raise -- and I think it was the hon, member for York South who purported to quote the Treasurer on this -- is whether, in fact, it is 19 times more regressive than the income tax. It is really academic because I think most of us in this House consider that the Income Tax Act is not a regressive tax but is a rather progressive tax. So I don’t know how you compare apples to oranges and suggest that something that is not regressive is 19 times better than something that is, or whatever the suggestion was by that comparison.", "I think perhaps the best way to deal with these points is to deal with them in the order in which they were raised in the House this afternoon. The hon. member for Kitchener referred to the extent to which this bill applies and the way in which we wound up selecting what articles were on it and what articles still remain off it. In fact, that item has been touched upon by a number of the members this afternoon.", "I think it is fair to tell you that my ministry put together several possible alternatives -- we called them packages, in the colloquial -- of articles that were practical for the retail merchandising industry to be able to categorize within their bins, their trays, their shelves and their corridors in their stores, so that they would be able to readily identify, at the cash counter or however else, whether the article was taxable or not taxable, and we were able to tell the Treasurer the kind of money that the province would then lose by the selection of one or other of these various packages.", "The package selected by the minister, which includes the removal of sales tax on shoes up to a price of $30 a pair, eliminates between 80 per cent and 90 per cent -- by sort of a rough type of estimate -- off the top of one’s head -- of the complaints that we as members have received with respect to the problem, as outlined by the member for Sudbury East and others, of determining when the youngster who has grown too fast is suddenly, at age 14, in the class where he winds up having to buy adult clothing and pay the tax. So the selection of a size was not terribly satisfactory. It was most dramatically illustrated as being unsatisfactory in the category of shoes and boots.", "So, in the removal of that, I think we have overcome around 80 per cent or 90 per cent of all the problems that our people have faced in that age grouping where the youngsters are growing from young people into young adults. I think it is fair to say that if the hon. member for Sudbury East or any of our other colleagues can come up with some suggestions as to the way in which we can deal with clothing generally in some rational way, so that small adults don’t get the benefit of buying children’s clothing, then we can very well, in my ministry and in conjunction with the Treasurer, maybe next time around or even earlier, by way of regulation, adopt something that will suit. But for the present time, if we were simply to wipe that out, the loss would be many millions of dollars to the Treasury, and it has been the Treasurer’s decision that we would not remove it at this time.", "There was the question, also raised I think by the hon. member for Kitchener and repeated by others, of how does one justify the imposition of a sales tax now on certain things but its removal at some later time. The imposition of the tax last year was not an abrupt imposition, it was an increase in an existing tax on which all the merchants had all the information at hand, their staff knew how to deal with the matter, it was simply a matter of charging up seven per cent instead of charging up five per cent.", "In this case we would dearly love to be able to roll in Tuesday morning with a removal from sales tax of the items as set out in the bill and as set out in a very elaborate regulation -- which will have to flow from this bill; but the difficulty is that that regulation has to go through the mechanics of the regulations committee and cabinet itself and on to the registrar of regulations.", "My staff are preparing that elaborate regulation and we would estimate a period of roughly 10 days from the time when the bill is passed to the time when I can get it through the various hoops and approved and out to all the retail merchants in Ontario so that they will have adequate information in time to be able to deal with the matter properly.", "The member for Kitchener also referred to donated items. We haven’t covered that. I told him -- I believe it was at the reception the other day -- that we would look at this; we will look at it. I think it’s a matter that should be given serious consideration; that we shouldn’t necessarily do these things on an ad hoc basis of exempting one and then letting another one make application.", "Perhaps if an organization qualifies as a charitable organization for other purposes that it might then automatically qualify. So far the practice of my predecessors has been to look at each one in turn and determine whether it was an appropriate organization, as I understand it, to be exempted from this kind of thing, whether they be donated goods or otherwise. I think we can take a further look at it in the course of the next while.", "The member for Kitchener also asked the question concerning the community centres amendment; and my notes, I’m afraid, don’t bring the question fully back to mind. He did say something about the benefits going back to the municipality -- and this is, of course, what we would expect would be the case. If it does go back to the municipality -- if that was the member’s question; I think it was as I ruminate on this -- if it does go back to the municipality and the affidavit, as contemplated by the amendment in the Act, is sworn to say it goes back to the benefit of the municipality, then however the municipality and its council or its community centres board determines to apply the fund, it would qualify for a proportionate abatement of the sales tax.", "The member is nodding his head. I presume that that satisfactorily answers his question.", "The member for York South raised a point which, of course, we have all reflected on from time to time -- and that is the matter of the removal of the retail sales tax from building materials. We would like to see the federal government remove their tax, which is a very much larger one than the tax imposed by Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Ruston (Essex-Kent)", "text": [ "It is on the wholesale price -- the provincial one is on the retail price." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "We are not satisfied that the removal of our tax would significantly reduce the retail sale price of that house. We think that the builder would simply move in and absorb that reduction in cost to him and in fact would retain the same sale price. The point is the value of the sale price of the house on the market is not determined by the cost to the builder so much as it is determined by what the builder can get when he puts it on the market. And that, I suspect is why the federal government has also not removed its sales tax.", "If they remove theirs at the federal level, the amount of our tax would of course be reduced by a factor -- by I suppose 11 per cent of our seven per cent.", "But we do not believe in this present market that there would be any significant abatement in the sale price of houses, unless and until there can be a sufficient supply of houses on the market so that they are in fact competitive -- then the sale price will simply be governed today by what the market can stand.", "By reducing that tax, we would lose roughly $195 million -- I think that is the estimate -- without any significant improvement in the price by way of reduction in the sale price of houses on the market.", "I think I have answered the questions by the member for Wentworth as to how we decided which items we would exempt and how we would not accept others, but I might just point out that as for shoes, I have checked with our staff and -- since the member for Wentworth isn’t in his seat his colleagues might relate it to him -- I am advised that orthopaedic shoes now do qualify. That is, the type of shoe with an elevated arch or strengthening facilities would qualify as an orthopaedic device.", "The member for Windsor-Walkerville asked about athletic equipment. That again is just part of a package, one might say. If one starts talking about athletic equipment, one has to start getting selective unless one is prepared to wipe out the $100 pair of skis or the expensive pair of skates." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "The way of doing it, though, is by going through the Ministry of Community and Social Services, not to --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "At the present time there are facilities for schools to purchase this kind of equipment tax-free. I would suggest that unless we can come up with something, and maybe the hon. member has some suggestion that’s workable -- we can look at that -- but again it is a package. We have got to consider all the factors and particularly the financial impact of this. Whether these people who are paying the tax can presently afford to pay it is certainly an important one but it is not the only factor to remember. We have got to look at the luxury aspect of these things." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "I don’t say all athletic equipment. I am specifying selected equipment," ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "I was not clear about what the member for Windsor-Walkerville was suggesting with respect to municipalities and their applications for exemption permits on admission prices. It seems to me that might just develop into an administrative nightmare.", "I have the notion that the course of action we are following by way of a distinct exemption by statute, thereby permitting them from the beginning to know where they are when they are planning their function, is far better than requiring that they apply to the ministry for specific exemptions. Waiting for the minister’s response can leave them in limbo for some time while the matter is weighed. Consequently, I think the course of action we are following here in a specific area is a far clearer one." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "The government is going to handle the moneys two times." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. F. Laughren (Nickel Belt)", "text": [ "Is that the same as twice?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "There is no sense in that." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "I come now, I think, to the last item I need to touch on. It’s the comment by the member for Sudbury East, on which I have already touched briefly, dealing with younger children with outsized feet and that kind of problem with larger than average children. The member for Essex South touched on this, too.", "The difficulty is that today the styling of students’ clothing and adults’ clothing is much the same. I am told it used to be that one could always tell the difference between young children’s clothing and clothing for children up to age 16 and adult clothing. I see the member for Essex South is not in his seat but I think he would confirm that there is very little style difference any longer. It’s difficult if not impossible to police sales of this nature whereas it is possible to police them if there are styling differences." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Ruston", "text": [ "Take it off all clothing and be done with it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. P. Spence (Kent)", "text": [ "Right." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "I would ask the member for Sudbury East if he has any suggestions as to how we would cope with, say, telephone orders? Recognizing that styles are the same, how then do the tax auditors inspect the books when people have placed telephone orders? It’s fine for someone to come in and produce a card identifying him as a student at the XYZ collegiate and that he’s 15 or 16 years of age but what kind of evidence is then left with the merchant so that he can satisfy the auditors when they check to make sure if he has or has not collected a properly payable tax?", "These are some of the problems we face in my ministry. If we can come up with some ideas as to how to properly organize this end of merchant selling, I can tell you, Mr. Speaker, that I’d be the first to recommend to my colleagues a suitable course of action, provided it can be policed properly.", "Mr. Speaker, those observations conclude my comments. I just want to repeat my opening words -- that I appreciate the support coming from all sides of the House on this very significant bill.", "Motion agreed to; second reading of the bill." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Shall the bill be ordered for third reading?", "Agreed." ] } ]	April 11, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-11/hansard
THIRD READING	[ { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "The minister will never have it easier." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "No, I don’t think I will." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "He shouldn’t draw any conclusions from that." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "I have been around here for a while, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. A. Stewart (Minister of Agriculture and Food)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I believe that the idea was to go into estimates at this time. However, there have been suggestions made to me that it might be wise to consider adjourning the House right now -- rising now. The traffic is very heavy at this particular hour for the members to go home and it would seem to me an appropriate time if we were to move that the House rise. I’m not sure what that does to the committee downstairs, but it does seem to me to be the useful thing to do." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "Right on." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. Gisborn (Hamilton East)", "text": [ "They’ll be glad to go too." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "I assume it wouldn’t upset our friend the Minister of Correctional Services (Mr. Potter), so with that in mind I would move that the House do now rise.", "Hon. Mr. Stewart moves the adjournment of the House.", "Motion agreed to.", "The House adjourned at 4:05 o’clock, p.m." ] } ]	April 11, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-11/hansard
SOLANDT COMMISSION REPORT	[ { "speaker": "Hon. A. Grossman (Provincial Secretary for Resources Development)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, on March 7, I tabled in the Legislature the report of the Solandt commission which dealt with transmission of power between Nanticoke and Pickering. The recommendations of the report are being considered by the government, which intends to make its decision shortly.", "There has been ample opportunity for public involvement on this 500-kv line through the medium of approximately 45 public meetings held by the Solandt commission and its consultant. Since the tabling of the report, we have received further representation from citizens who see themselves as most likely to be affected by the line should Dr. Solandt’s recommendations be accepted.", "This statement, therefore, is made to advise any others who may wish to respond to the report to do so as soon as possible before May 10, because of the importance of proceeding with this project without too much further delay." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Oral questions. The hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] } ]	April 9, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-09/hansard
SOLANDT COMMISSION REPORT	[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Provincial Secretary for Resources Development further to the statement he just made. Is the government prepared to accept the Solandt recommendation that properties for the Hydro corridor will be expropriated without going through the requirement for a hearing of necessity as is necessary under the law of the province? Is the minister prepared to state government policy in that regard or is he, on the other hand, prepared to give to those citizens directly concerned the rights to have such a hearing of necessity?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the whole purpose of setting the date of May 10 is to make sure that at a certain time we will have whatever conceivable objections some people may have who have not had the opportunity or who felt they had not had the opportunity to present their case, having regard for what the final report of the commission was. In the meantime, the ministries involved have been asked to let us have their views and within a short time after May 10 we will take into consideration all of those presentations which have been made on the report of Dr. Solandt. We don’t guarantee that all of his recommendations are going to be accepted. All we are doing at this time is considering the report and very shortly after May 10 the policy of the government with respect to all of his recommendations will be made known." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "A supplementary: I would also like to ask the same minister if he is prepared to order an environmental study on the alignment of the so-called Bradley-Georgetown Hydro corridor. Is he aware that the Minister of Energy (Mr. McKeough) has stated -- at least, is reported to have stated -- in western Ontario that if there is sufficient objections he, as minister, is prepared to recommend an independent environmental hearing? What constitutes sufficient objection since there have been large meetings of farmers and interested citizens involved, and I know that I and others have received written objections to the corridor as it is presently outlined?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, of course the recommendations of my colleague, the Minister of Energy, will be discussed and the House may rest assured that whatever needs to be done will be done to make sure that citizens are given whatever consideration they feel should be given to their objections; these matters will be taken into consideration. Even though, as the hon. member, I am sure, appreciates, it’s a very difficult decision to arrive at, what I am really saying is that we are going to have to wait until we consider the whole matter of the project, and whatever the Minister of Energy is prepared to recommend to the government will be taken into consideration.", "I can’t say anything further at this time because it’s all under consideration." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "A supplementary: Does that simply mean the minister is going to do what the Minister of Energy tells him or is there, in fact, some area of overriding policy involving the establishment of an environmental assessment hearing because of the substantial objections which have been coming forward?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "I have said, Mr. Speaker, that the government will take into consideration, of course, the recommendations of the Minister of Energy; indeed, the government as a whole takes into consideration the representations of each and all of its ministers. When the decision is made this House will be advised." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. R. Good (Waterloo North)", "text": [ "A supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Waterloo North." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Would the minister assure the House, in view of the fact that the environmental studies on the Bradley to Georgetown route were the in-house variety done by Hydro itself, that at least the Ministry of the Environment of his own government would look at those environmental studies to assure the people of Ontario that there has been some external input, even though a commission of Dr. Solandt’s proportion is not going to be involved in those studies?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the Minister of the Environment (Mr. W. Newman) is, of course, studying all those matters to which the hon. member has referred." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "He has looked at them?", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. Sargent (Grey-Bruce)", "text": [ "Still in trouble on that." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "I can advise the hon. members, Mr. Speaker, that a statement on this particular project will be made shortly." ] } ]	April 9, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-09/hansard
PRIVATE SECTOR INVOLVEMENT IN NUCLEAR POWER DEVELOPMENT	[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I have another question of the same minister. Still in the absence of the Minister of Energy -- but it is a matter of policy so I think it is correctly directed -- can the minister report to the House the status of the negotiations held so far in secret between Ontario Hydro and the private sector on the involvement of the private sector in the development of the equipment and capability for nuclear electricity plants, both for installation here and abroad?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, that is a question which should be properly directed to my colleague, the Minister of Energy." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "A supplementary: Let me just ask the minister if as a matter of policy the government has decided, through the policy board that he heads, to involve the private sector in this area, or is this still simply an exploratory series of conferences seeing what the outcome might be? Has the policy decision been made?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, that has not yet reached the cabinet committee on resources development." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Will it ever?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, a supplementary: Why then does the Toronto Star report that secret negotiations are going on between the consortium --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. M. Havrot (Timiskaming)", "text": [ "The member doesn’t believe that, does he?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "-- Union Gas, Consumers’ Gas, GE, Westinghouse? Why does the Star say that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, that question should properly be directed to the publishers of the Toronto Star.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] } ]	April 9, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-09/hansard
HEALTH PLANNING TASK FORCE REPORT	[ { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I’d like to ask a question of the Minister of Health. On his reading of the Mustard report is he rejecting the recommendation that comes from Dr. Mustard and that committee that the implementation of at least certain aspects not be delayed, particularly the establishment of what I believe are called district health councils, a matter which Dr. Mustard puts forward with some urgency? Does the minister’s statement that he is going to take no action even to appoint a committee to deal with this for four months mean that he is rejecting the urgency of those matters put forward?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. F. S. Miller (Minister of Health)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I don’t think that we rejected the urgency of those matters. The Ministry of Health has for some time said that district health planning councils were a vital part of the decentralization of health care. There are some issues involved in that programme which we need to study within our ministry before we make a public statement on the issue.", "We have one council functioning now. It’s functioning in the Ottawa-Carleton area and we are observing it very carefully before in fact further steps are made." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "A supplementary: Did the minister indicate then that he is going to take no further steps until the period of four months has elapsed, at which time further committee reviews will begin?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "I think our statement was very carefully worded to say that we wanted to get the greatest degree of public participation and response before in effect we tried to decide whether the Mustard report had offered the correct solutions to the correct issues. Now, we are in fact setting up mechanisms by which to monitor these replies at once. We’ll be collating them as quickly as we can and I’m quite sure that shortly we’ll be able to give the member some more information." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. A. J. Roy (Ottawa East)", "text": [ "May I ask a supplementary, Mr. Speaker?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I think we should alternate the supplementaries." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. E. Stokes (Thunder Bay)", "text": [ "In view of the minister’s statement, does this mean that all of the background work that has been done concerning the formation of the health council in northwestern Ontario will be held in abeyance until the minister sees the results of the only one in existence at the present time -- that is the one in Ottawa-Carleton?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "No, Mr. Speaker, I wouldn’t jump to that conclusion at this point in time.", "I think that there are a number of issues in that report, some of them very contentious, some not so contentious. A district health planning council is a concept, as the members know, that was not new. It didn’t suddenly arise within the report. The Ministry of Health has been encouraging discussion on and formation of these throughout the Province of Ontario, but naturally we do have the desire to see that they function well, related to other governmental bodies." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Ottawa East." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, if I may ask a question of the minister relevant to the Mustard report and the Health Disciplines Act. One of the suggestions in the Mustard report was establishment of arrangements for sharing tasks and delegation of responsibility among the health personnel. This is one of the recommendations of the report and in view of the minister’s statement that he wants to get some public input for about four months, does he still plan to proceed with the Health Disciplines Act now in view of this particular recommendation about sharing of responsibilities?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Yes, Mr. Speaker, we do plan to proceed with the Health Disciplines Act now." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Isn’t there a contradiction there?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Ottawa Centre. A supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Cassidy (Ottawa Centre)", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Could I ask my supplementary?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Well, I really think we should keep to the alternating programme." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "As a supplementary, I just want to ask the minister whether he was aware that the formation of the health council in Ottawa took two years because of delays by the ministry, and does that mean that the further formation of health councils in the rest of the province will take another two years, or is there more commitment than that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "I think it is safe to say that concurrently with the work being done in Ottawa, work was being done in other areas, therefore we don’t have a two-year time lag for any of the other areas." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] } ]	April 9, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-09/hansard
OHC ADVERTISING	[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I would like to ask the Minister of Housing, further to the province’s advertising budget, to explain why Ontario Housing Corp.’s display advertisement for integrated community housing programmes appeared three times in today’s Star -- exactly the same ad. Is he trying to use up his budget, or what is the purpose of that expenditure?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Has the minister got his name on it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. S. B. Handleman (Minister of Housing)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I haven’t seen today’s Star and I will check into it for the hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Once on page 8, twice on page 2." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "I will look into it and report back." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Does the hon. Leader of the Opposition have further questions? If not, the hon. member for Scarborough West is next." ] } ]	April 9, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-09/hansard
ETOBICOKE HOUSING SUBDIVISION	[ { "speaker": "Mr. S. Lewis (Scarborough West)", "text": [ "May I ask the Minister of Housing, Mr. Speaker -- he will know that the borough of Etobicoke has approved a plan for subdivision which permits the development of 302 single-family dwellings on roughly 75 acres in the last area of development land in Etobicoke --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "For $100,000 homes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Yes. Does the minister intend to make any public comment? Does he intend, in fact, to meet with the borough to discuss with them whether the putting on the market of 300 more homes whose costs will be in excess of $100,000 each is consistent with his priorities in the housing field?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have every intention of meeting not only with the borough of Etobicoke, but all other boroughs in Metro or with Metro council to discuss our housing programmes. From what I have read of the particular subdivision that the hon. member is raising at this point, it appears to me to be a matter entirely within the hands of the borough and the developer.", "Apparently there is a market for that type of housing and developers are prepared to satisfy that type of market." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "There is even a bigger market for cheaper houses." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "I certainly don’t believe that it fits into our programme, nor do I believe our programme includes the possibility of building houses in that price plan." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "By way of supplementary, given what surely must be the priorities in the minister’s programme -- or so he has revealed them occasionally to the House; the alleged priorities -- does he not think there is an even greater demand for low- and middle-income housing and that it would benefit matters were he to meet specifically with the elected council of Etobicoke and put to them the government’s position that low-density housing can still be encompassed in this acreage, but with homes at a significantly reduced price, providing much more accommodation for a larger number of people who might afford it? Does he not agree that his plans are dealt a serious blow by this land of development?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "I don’t agree with the latter, but on the other hand the hon. member has outlined exactly what our housing action programme encompasses, which is the building of low-cost housing for people in low and moderate income ranges --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "Around $100,000." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "That is not our programme. And it would seem to me that the hon. member has given a much better description of it than I can here in this House." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Supplementary: Is the minister aware that those few lots that the leader of the NDP is referring to may very well be the only lots approved in the whole of Metropolitan Toronto this year for single-family dwellings and that you can’t buy one unless you can cough up $100,000 minimum; and if you really want to go for the bundle they have them also at $150,000?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "No, Mr. Speaker, I am not aware that those are the only single-family lots that may be approved in Metro this year. It is my understanding that Metro council and the boroughs are working on accelerating certain plans of subdivisions." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "There are only 12 lots in the first quarter." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scarborough West." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Well, we will see whether the government’s speculative land tax this afternoon will do what it wants it to do; and we will watch it." ] } ]	April 9, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-09/hansard
LAKE ERIE PUBLIC BEACHES	[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "May I ask the Minister of Natural Resources, Mr. Speaker, what does he intend to do now about retrieving any of the beaches of Lake Erie for public access, given the findings of the Supreme Court and the decision which came down some time ago? I think at the time the minister indicated -- and the former Provincial Secretary for Resources Development indicated that he would want to think about it for a while and then suggest a government approach." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. L. Bernier (Minister of Natural Resources)", "text": [ "Well, Mr. Speaker, this matter will be coming before the government for discussion. It has not at this present time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "It has not been discussed as yet." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier", "text": [ "No." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Is the minister --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Welland South has a supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I have one supplementary, if I may. I wonder if the hon. minister is aware that as a result of the Supreme Court decision, between the Peace Bridge in Fort Erie and Point Albino --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Abino." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Abino, I am sorry. To the west there exists about 70,000 ft of Lake Erie shoreline where the accessibility on a per capita basis works out to about 1/100 of an inch per person. That is what is now available to the people of Ontario as a result of that decision and the government’s refusal to amend the Beds of Navigable Waters Act. Since it has now been reduced to the point of absurdity, when does the minister think he will have a policy to retrieve the public beaches?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier", "text": [ "I am sure, Mr. Speaker, when these matters come before the government, all matters will be fully examined." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Welland South was up for a supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. Haggerty (Welland South)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I just wanted to know if the minister was going to bring in a bill to change in the Navigable Waters Act the description of Crown property along the lakeshore? This government has promised this, I believe, for the last 25 years. When is the minister going to get off his good intentions and do something?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier", "text": [ "That is a federal Act." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "The member for Welland South has one before the House now." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. E. Bullbrook (Sarnia)", "text": [ "Does the minister know he has got a committee studying this? Does he realize that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Does the hon. member for Scarborough West have further questions?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "Just a second! The Beds of Navigable Waters Act is not a federal Act. That’s not a federal matter. It is in this minister’s ministry." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. P. D. Lawlor (Lakeshore)", "text": [ "The government changed it in 1921." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "That is not what the member for Welland South said." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Does the hon. member for Scarborough West have further questions?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "By way of supplementary, no wonder there are no beaches left for public use." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Is that a supplementary question?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Yes, it is." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I haven’t detected it yet.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Is it any wonder that the people of Ontario have no public beaches?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Back to the question." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Thank you.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Is the minister aware that the Beds of Navigable Waters Act falls within his ministry for amendment?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier", "text": [ "Yes, Mr. Speaker, I am aware that that particular Act falls within the provincial jurisdiction, but I understood the member to say the Navigable Waters Act." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Beds of." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "That is the Navigable Waters Protection Act. He said the right Act." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier", "text": [ "I am sorry, the Protection Act." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I don’t think any of the hon. members said “supplementary”. The hon. member for Scarborough West." ] } ]	April 9, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-09/hansard
COINCIDENTAL TIMING OF HYDRO PROJECTS	[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "If I may, I have a last question, of the Premier. Has the Premier noted that the decision on which the Arnprior dam has been based -- the decision to go ahead on the Arnprior dam -- was reached at exactly the same period of time as the decision to build the head office building in downtown Toronto, as the decision on the original Hydro Pickering-Nanticoke corridor, and as the decision on the western Ontario transmission corridor, all of which decisions have subsequently been open to criticism of this Legislature, public repudiation or reversal by the government? Does he not, therefore, think that the decision on the Arnprior dam should also be open to an additional public scrutiny since it involves some $80 million of public funds?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. J. Bounsall (Windsor West)", "text": [ "That was a bad month." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. G. Davis (Premier)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, while I don’t have any chronological order of decisions or tentative decisions made by Ontario Hydro, I question whether the hon. member’s mathematics on dates are quite accurate. I can only go back in memory.", "The discussion initially of the proposed Nanticoke to Pickering transmission line goes back several years. It was discussed in terms of a northern route, a route that really isn’t too dissimilar to the present Solandt recommendation, which is consistent with the parkway belt. If memory serves me correctly. there was some discussion with respect to a middle route.", "I think it is fair to state, and I am not here to defend Hydro, that to try to relate all of these four matters to any particular period of time is just not correct. The discussion on a Nanticoke to Pickering line goes --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I think it is the last hurrah of George Gathercole." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I just tell the member the proposal from Hydro on the Pickering to Nanticoke line goes back some considerable period of time. I would also say, in fairness to Hydro, that their suggestion as to the alignment of the Pickering to Nanticoke line certainly met with opposition. As I said in the House the other day, while I think personally there are some areas that I much prefer in the Solandt commission recommendation because they are consistent with the parkway, we would be very foolish to feel that everybody is going to be content with that line.", "I think to try and relate all of these in any way is really somewhat inaccurate and perhaps even inappropriate. I just can’t trace the same degree of chronology that is being suggested by the hon. member. It just doesn’t exist, I think. Quite frankly, I haven’t even looked at it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Supplementary: Since there is another area of similarity, that is, that two of the major projects were entered into without public, or adequate, public tendering, perhaps the Premier would respond with his experience in that regard and indicate to the House whether or not he feels that the Arnprior situation should be at least halted pending further tendering, if not a full review of the whole situation?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, as I understand it, and I’m not an expert in the Arnprior contract, the first phase was negotiated and the second phase has, in fact, been tendered." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "But the Premier is aware of the circumstances, that the company that got the negotiated part also won the tender, because they were the only one that had any information?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Because they were $2 million low." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. V. M. Singer (Downsview)", "text": [ "But they were on the spot with their work crew and their machinery; they could underbid everybody." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order please. The hon. member for Ottawa Centre." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "A supplementary, Mr. Speaker: In view of the fact that the Minister of Energy has now reconsidered his suppression of information and has released the development engineering report on this dam, and in view of the fact that that report reveals that on Oct. 22, 1971, right after the election, Hydro’s public relations people were meeting to determine how they would manipulate public opinion to favour the dam, will the Premier now reconsider his refusal to have a public inquiry into that project?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "No, Mr. Speaker, I am not going to reconsider. There has been quite a bit of discussion here. The hon. member for Ottawa and the islands has contributed a great deal --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Ottawa and the islands? That is a new riding." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "I have to cover both his constituencies -- and, as I understand it, he is going to be making some submissions to the board related to the financial aspects, at which time I’m sure he will have an opportunity to present his point of view. But I see no purpose, Mr. Speaker, in having an inquiry. I think the facts have been presented, the hon. member has had the material, and I think that to have an inquiry at this stage would serve no useful purpose whatsoever." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bounsall", "text": [ "Taken in by a rotten Hydro decision again!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Are these supplementaries?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "No." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "No." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "All right. The hon. member for Scarborough West has not indicated he is finished yet." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Yes, he is." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Are there further questions? All right. The ministry has the answers to several questions asked previously, and I think we should deal with them first. The hon. Minister of Revenue has the answer to a question asked previously." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. A. K. Meen (Minister of Revenue)", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Time!" ] } ]	April 9, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-09/hansard
CORPORATION INCOME TAX PAID BY OIL COMPANIES TO PROVINCE	[ { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, last Thursday, the hon. member for Scarborough West asked me a question regarding corporation taxes paid by oil companies and the amount of taxes paid. Specifically, his question was: “How many of the major oil companies with operations in the Province of Ontario paid a provincial corporation income tax last year ... and in what amount?”", "Perhaps I should say at the beginning that I don’t yet have the figures for 1973, so the closest year I can give anything for would be 1972. However, may I go on?", "As I indicated to the hon. member on the day the question was asked, the secrecy provision of the Corporations Tax Act, 1972, as set out in section 166 of that Act, precludes communication of any specific information obtained under the Act. And may I quote section 166 for the benefit of the hon. member for Scarborough West and for the benefit of the hon. member for Sarnia, who injected himself into that question?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "Did I really?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "It states:", "No person employed in the service of Her Majesty shall communicate, or allow to be communicated to any person not legally entitled thereto, any information obtained under this Act, or allow any such person to inspect or have access to any written statement furnished under this Act." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "It shouldn’t apply to corporations." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "This restriction is similar to one found in the personal Income Tax Act. Such a restriction is necessary so that individuals and corporations can submit operating statements in confidence to the authorities of my ministry without unnecessarily jeopardizing their personal privacy or competitive positions.", "In view of these provisions, I must confirm the position I took last Thursday on this matter and decline to provide to the hon. member the particulars of corporation tax paid in the Province of Ontario by major oil companies here.", "Perhaps I might just go on and observe that the petroleum industry coded in our records as “extractive, refining, pipeline, wholesale and retail,” paid corporation tax in Ontario in 1972 on an allocation-of-income basis as provided for in the Act. This allocation provision applies to companies having operations in more than one province, and allows for income allocation for tax purposes to the province where the income arises. Ontario’s tax share involved a total of 1,361 corporations, with allocations to this province ranging from a low of 18 per cent to a high of 90 per cent." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "A supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "A supplementary, Mr. Speaker: With respect, my question was completely ignored, and I think deliberately. So I will put to the ministry by way of supplementary -- and I have the Hansard in front of me -- which doesn’t violate in any sense the Corporations Tax Act, as he has indicated.", "I asked if he knows how many of the major oil companies with operations in the Province of Ontario paid a provincial corporation income tax last year. The minister would not be revealing anything to give us the names of the oil companies that paid a corporation income tax in the last year for which he has figures.", "So, my supplementary is, will the minister give us the names of those companies? Not the amounts, but the names of those companies?", "I asked in further supplementaries if, he was unable to give us specific dollar figures, if he would give us the total that the industry paid? Again, this would not violate any of the specifics indicated in the Corporation Tax Act." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, it gets to be a good question as to what is a major oil company. We have 1,361 corporations in these various categories.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Now if they are talking about retail sales --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Come on; enough of this." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)", "text": [ "Why doesn’t the minister try --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. F. Foulds (Port Arthur)", "text": [ "We will settle for the top seven." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "I can certainly name on the fingers of one hand, plus one or two, the major oil companies; okay?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Fine; tell us." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "I am not prepared to tell the member what they paid; I am not prepared to tell him what the total was, because --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I got that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "He knows that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Why?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "All the member would need to do would be to look at their retail sales and apportion matters accordingly; I am not in a position to depart from the confidence, imposed in my ministry." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Just how long do these apologists and defenders of the oil companies get away with it in this House?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "Quit grandstanding." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Why does the minister deny public information that is clearly ours to have; collectively ours to have? Why can we not know which of those oil companies pay tax?", "Incidentally, Mr. Speaker, the Province of Quebec --", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "All right; on a point of privilege, let me say that the Province of Quebec released this information publicly, which as a matter of fact is why I asked the question. If it can be done in the Province of Quebec, by way of an answer to a question, why can the minister not do it in Ontario; and how would it impair the oil companies were he to tell us their total revenue? How long can the minister be the bond-holder of the oil companies?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "All we have to do is put the --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Well, will we get the information? Will the minister give us the information?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I think we should finish dealing with this one first." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Will the minister give us the information? Will he tell us which oil companies paid a corporation income tax?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "I can look into the matter of what corporations have paid corporation income tax." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "What does he mean, “what corporations”?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "What oil companies have paid corporation tax." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Don’t strain." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Minister of the Environment has the answer to a question asked previously, two questions in fact." ] } ]	April 9, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-09/hansard
DEEP WELL POLLUTION	[ { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman (Minister of the Environment)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, a question was asked by the hon. Leader of the Opposition concerning a report to which he made reference." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "The minister must have a speech writer." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "There was really no report on private well contamination in Innisfil township, Mr. Speaker. I would like to point out that responsibility for private water supply rests with the local MOH. My ministry has assisted the local medical officer of health by gathering water quality data in the area and has made the information available for action and release by the medical officer of health.", "Mr. Speaker, there has been a problem in this area for some time involving both private water supplies and private waste disposal systems. In recognition of this problem, the Simcoe county district health unit of the township of Innisfil designated a special policy area in which buildings and private waste disposal facilities were brought under strict regulations.", "The ministry is aware of the general conditions that gave rise to the imposition of these restrictions and has retained a firm of consulting engineers from Collingwood to prepare a conceptual brief and preliminary report on the various methods of providing water and sewer services to all or parts of the problem area. This report is now under preparation. The ministry will continue to work with the township and the local medical officer of health to help solve the problems in this area." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Supplementary: Does the report indicate that 60 to 80 per cent of the wells are contaminated, depending upon the area of the township concerned?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "We just collect the data, we don’t have a specific report. I don’t know of the report that is referred to, but there is a problem which we are working on with them." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. minister has -- supplementary? There are several more answers from the ministry; the hon. member for Kent (Mr. Spence) will be first when we are finished with them." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. T. P. Reid (Rainy River)", "text": [ "He has been saving them up for a long time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "We waste a lot of time with all those statements." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Why doesn’t the minister rehearse those things? Why doesn’t he give direct answers at the time the questions are asked?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Why doesn’t he give us a direct answer?" ] } ]	April 9, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-09/hansard
ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT OF PUBLIC WORKS	[ { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have the answer to questions directed to me yesterday by the hon. members for Scarborough West and Ottawa Centre.", "The hon. member for Scarborough West asked if I would table the inquiry officer’s report on the Ontario Hydro application of Jan. 23 for approval to expropriate property in the area of the Arnprior dam project for the relocation of the CPR line; and whether I had turned the inquiry officer’s reports over to the Attorney General (Mr. Welch).", "Mr. Speaker, it is not the practice of this ministry, when acting as approving authorities under the Expropriations Act, to make public the report or inquiry officers. The signed inquiry officer’s report to which the hon. member refers was received in my office April 2. This report is now being considered and it is my intention to make a decision within the 90-day period allowed under the Expropriations Act.", "When the decision has been made, copies of it -- together with my reasons -- will be sent to the parties of the hearing and to the chief inquiry officer, the Assistant Deputy Attorney General. It is not the practice to forward Ae report of the inquiry officer to the Attorney General.", "The hon. member for Ottawa Centre --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, may I ask a supplementary to that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Is this the same question?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, there was a supplementary, and I’m going to answer the supplementary at the same time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "A supplementary to the original question?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "Yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I think the minister should complete his reply, if the hon. member for Scarborough West does not want the first supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "The hon. member for Ottawa Centre asked if I was aware of further applications for approval to expropriate in relation to this project. I have not yet received further applications. I understand that an application will be made shortly by Ontario Hydro covering several parcels of land, parts or all of which may be affected by the project.", "At the time an expropriation authority makes an application to an approving authority under the Expropriations Act, all the registered owners affected by the application are given notice and notice to the public is published through the local newspapers." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Downsview." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Could the minister explain how long it took for the usual practice not to make the reports of the inquiry office available, how many inquiry officers’ reports has he received, how many has he been asked for, and is this not the first one he has refused to release?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "I believe, since I took over this ministry, this is the first one I’ve received." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Yes. And to the minister’s knowledge has his department received any other?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "Oh, I expect that they have over a period of time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "When did the practice grow up and did he find any foundation for it in the statute? I’ll tell the minister there isn’t any. It wasn’t the intention of those who had something to do with the statute that that should be a secret report." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Well, it’s not secret if he puts it out." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "He doesn’t. He puts the decision out." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "A supplementary, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "A supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Would the minister confirm that the inquiry officer’s report, in at least one of those cases, was critical of the amount of land that Hydro wished to take? And, if so, will he then explain whether we will have full disclosure of the contents of that inquiry report whether or not the actual report is tabled?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "When I make my report I will give my reasons." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "A supplementary: The minister is surely not saying that he would deny a copy of the inquiry officer’s report to the citizens whose land is being expropriated by Hydro?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "That’s exactly what he said. That’s exactly what he said." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I mean, I can see him saying to us in the Legislature, “I’ll not give it to you until I’ve released it to them” -- but he’s not going to deny them a copy of the report of the authority before whom they appeared, surely?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "That’s exactly what he said." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The minister is getting himself into incredibly deep water." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "It is a practice just established this afternoon." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "This first and foremost report got on my desk yesterday, and I haven’t had a chance to study it in detail." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "The minister doesn’t want to answer in detail." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "The member got an answer in detail. Yes, he did; and when I’ve had a chance to look it over then I’ll let him know." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "First he gives us the answer, then he backs out." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "What is the value of the day in court that is being given to people of the area when, in fact, the officer before whom they appear never publishes the report on the basis of the inquiry? What use is the day in court that they get? It’s a kangaroo court on that basis." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "He doesn’t want to answer, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "There have been four supplementaries. The Minister of Agriculture and Food has the answer to a question asked previously." ] } ]	April 9, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-09/hansard
CROP INSURANCE	[ { "speaker": "Hon. W. A. Stewart (Minister of Agriculture and Food)", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The member for Lanark (Mr. Wiseman) asked me a question concerning the dropping of the final seeding dates from crop insurance plans for Ontario. The answer is yes, the commission has dropped the final seeding dates because it is of the opinion that with the inclusion of coverage for unseeded acres in the spring crop lands -- which is now inclusive in all plans this year, Mr. Speaker -- the date of the final seeding is best left to each individual farmer. I think that makes it much more uniform and, perhaps, it will lead to better farm management than we’ve had in the past with those specific deadlines." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Minister of Housing also has the answer to questions asked previous." ] } ]	April 9, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-09/hansard
HOUSING PROGRAMMES	[ { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Yes, Mr. Speaker, on March 15 the member for Port Arthur asked: “Can the minister tell the House if OHC has alternative plans for providing senior citizen housing in Thunder Bay due to cancellation of the project at Fort William ...?”", "In reply to the hon. member’s question, the OHC is presently negotiating for a number of city-owned sites which are suitably located for senior citizen housing. OHC is also in the process of rezoning its own Donald St. site and has appointed the architectural firm of Ranta and Tett to prepare preliminary drawings. It is anticipated that about 70 units may be developed at that location.", "In addition OHC is interested in the Cumberland St. community housing project. Construction has not yet commenced but OHC is negotiating for a considerable percentage of units in this 242-unit development for its rent supplement project. I’m informed that more than half the units will be suitable for senior citizen housing.", "Construction on the 121-unit senior citizen building which was halted because of winter weather is expected to resume in the near future. A contract has been signed for 101 units on Rowan Ave. and the builder is now on the site." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The member for Kent is next." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. P. Spence (Kent)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Housing. Did the minister inform us yesterday that 40 official plans of municipalities have been dealt with since planning came under his department? Is he considering restoring the power to grant consent to those municipalities whose plans have been approved by his department?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, at the present time the power to grant consents is within the ministry. There is a programme and a policy announcement to phase delegation of that type of authority back to regions and restructured counties. As far as I know that programme is carrying on. However, it is not anticipated that it would be referred back to --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Nothing much has happened yet." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "-- area municipalities which are not either regional or reconstructed counties." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "If a place isn’t regional what does it do?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Ottawa Centre is next." ] } ]	April 9, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-09/hansard
FIRE INSURANCE FOR ROOMING HOUSES	[ { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "That’s just the beginning." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Has the minister examined the fire insurance payments to rooming house owners, as in the case of fire damage or destruction by recent fires in Ottawa and in Toronto, and is the minister prepared to consider legislation which would deny insurance coverage to any rooming house operator whose unit violated municipal bylaws or housing standards in order to stop the kind of destructive situation and loss of life which we’ve been experiencing in Ottawa and in Toronto?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. J. T. Clement (Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am not aware at this moment whether the superintendent’s office has in fact looked into the matters touched upon by the member for Ottawa Centre. I will, however, look into it by inquiry and find out if that is the case and get back to him.", "With reference to the second portion of the question, no, I have not considered that; I have not heard it advanced. I would feel it might well not serve the purpose for which it was intended in that it may be extremely discriminatory against a certain class of person who can be prosecuted under other avenues of the law for breaches of any particular statutes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Huron is next." ] } ]	April 9, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-09/hansard
FARMERS’ CONCERNS OVER LOCATION OF NUCLEAR PLANT	[ { "speaker": "Mr. J. Riddell (Huron)", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker; a question of the Minister of Agriculture. Now that the Ontario Bean Producers Marketing Board has met with him to express its concern over the proposed nuclear power plant in Huron, somewhere south of Goderich, what steps does he intend to take to meet the board’s requests?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "First of all, Mr. Speaker, there is no proposed nuclear power plant south of Goderich. There are exploratory considerations going on by Ontario Hydro and I know that location has been suggested but several sites have been under consideration. To my knowledge there is no site chosen and to my knowledge there has been no decision made whether it would be a nuclear plant or a fossil-fuelled plant; no one has any idea about that as yet." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "A supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Did I hear the word supplementary?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "A supplementary, yes. Why is the minister playing that game with the Legislature? He knows that Ontario Hydro indiscreetly made the mistake of letting it be known it is looking for a site in that immediate area. Therefore is it not now legitimate to indicate what he is going to do with the groups of residents who are extremely concerned about radioactive waste; about Inverhuron Park happening elsewhere; and about all of the things that are generated when the government sets up a nuclear plant? Why does the minister pretend it doesn’t exist when things are now proceeding, according to Hydro?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am not pretending they don’t exist. Obviously a statement had been made that there was consideration being given. After meeting with the people from Huron yesterday and with the officials of Ontario Hydro, it was made abundantly clear to us that there has been no such decision. It is purely in an exploratory state. Consideration is being given as to where sufficient power would be developed that would meet the requirements 10 to 15 years hence. There is no positive statement at all. So I am not in any way misleading or playing any games with the House. I am as much concerned as anyone would be with any ill effects --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Yes, serious consideration." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "Does the minister support the farmers?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "-- that might emanate from any such generating station, whatever the type might be. But until there is some indication that there is going to be such a plant, then I think it is presumptuous that there will be, as was indicated in the question of my friend from Huron. We are concerned, and I can assure members that our ministry will be having major inputs into any decisions that are being made regarding any possible ill effects that would emanate to the farm com- munity from such a plan." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bounsall", "text": [ "Supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "There are only three minutes remaining, I think perhaps we should restrict the supplementaries. In any event, the hon. member for Port Arthur is next." ] } ]	April 9, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-09/hansard
LAKE SUPERIOR OUTFLOWS	[ { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "I have a question, Mr. Speaker, of the Minister of the Environment. Has the minister been notified yet by the federal government of this country and that an agreement in principle has been reached between Canada and the United States regarding the regulation of outflows from Lake Superior? What has his response been to that contract?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "I am sorry, I didn’t hear the first part of that question." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "Is the minister aware, and has the federal government through the Department of External Affairs, made representation to him that an agreement in principle has been reached between Canada and the US through the IJC regarding Lake Superior outflow of water. What is his response to it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "My response is that at the federal-provincial conference in Ottawa I asked the federal minister to bring this matter up and to deal with the matter." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "A supplementary, Mr. Speaker; Is the minister not aware that the attorneys for both sides last week on April 2 in Washington announced this agreement in principle and said that they were awaiting confirmation from Ontario? I think the minister owes it to the Province of Ontario to let this Legislature know what Ontario’s stand is on the question." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. F. Laughren (Nickel Belt)", "text": [ "He doesn’t exhibit a new awareness." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "I am certainly aware of the outflow of all the lakes. I will be glad to bring the member more detailed information on this particular item tomorrow." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "A final supplementary --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I think we should accept that as a reasonable number in view of the fact that time is just about up.", "The hon. member for Downsview." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a question --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I am sorry, but I did recognize the hon. member for Downsview. I think the entire second row of the Liberal Party was up simultaneously. So the hon. member for Downsview has the floor.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] } ]	April 9, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-09/hansard
LAND TITLES OFFICE	[ { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations. Has he yet had a chance to look into the situation at the land titles office at Toronto, which I discussed with him a few days ago? Can he tell me if any steps are being taken to add to the staff and to make more efficient the operation in that office, the present situation being that complete chaos exists, particularly on the last working day of each month and the first working day of each successive month?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Yes, Mr. Speaker, I caused an inquiry to be made as a result of the member’s question directed to me a week or 10 days ago. I was advised that the demand on that particular facility at the end of March was indeed particularly heavy, and in the experience of the staff at that particular land titles office it was unduly onerous in terms of past experience.", "As the hon. member knows, registrations are up, I believe somewhere around 15 to 17 per cent. The director of titles had, prior to my inquiry, made arrangements for additional staff in the persons of summer students. They have had a programme of summer students for a number of years but they are increasing it. I have certain other alternatives that I am considering at the present time in an effort to alleviate it.", "I should point out that this is not the only facility in the province which has been strained in this fashion, particularly on those popular closing dates -- the 15th, 1st, or end of a particular month." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "By way of supplementary --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The time for oral questions has now been exhausted." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, could I make a motion to extend it 15 minutes?" ] }, { "speaker": "Some hon. members", "text": [ "No, no." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Petitions.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "They are afraid to; that’s why." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Shulman (High Park)", "text": [ "Let the member for Ottawa East ask for unanimous consent." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Yes, I have asked for unanimous consent.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Presenting reports.", "Mr. Reid from the standing public accounts committee presented the committee’s report which was read as follows and adopted:", "Your committee recommends that it be provided with a copy of the Provincial Auditor’s report on the Ontario Northland Transportation Commission and Star Transfer Ltd. for the year ending Dec. 31, 1973, concurrently with copies of the same being provided to the commission and the Ministry of Transportation and Communications.", "Your committee further recommends that the chairman of the Ontario Northland Transportation Commission furnish the committee with a copy of the internal audit reports completed by the staff of the internal audit branch of the Ministry of Transportation and Communications during 1973 for the Ontario Northland Transportation Commission and Star Transfer Ltd. within two weeks of this date." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Motions." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I would like to move a motion to extend the question period by 15 minutes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I believe it is reserved for the ministry. I am sorry." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "He is allowed to ask for unanimous consent.", "Hon. Mr. Winkler moves that the estimates of the following ministries be referred to the standing administration of justice committee: the Ministry of the Provincial Secretary for Justice, the Ministry of the Attorney General, and the Ministry of the Solicitor General." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "Prior to that particular motion I would like to ask a question of the government leader." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Did the motion carry? The member wishes to speak to the motion?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "I’d like to speak to the matter by way of a question. I am wondering if the House leader could explain why he hasn’t put on Consumer and Commercial Relations and referred them to the standing committee on justice? It would seem to me that the main thrust of that particular operation does deal in the justice field, especially in connection with the operation of the land registry offices now." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)", "text": [ "That is correct, Mr. Speaker. The ministries not mentioned in the motion will be heard in the House. I would like to inform the House too that the Provincial Secretary for Justice (Mr. Welch) is ready to be heard.", "Motion agreed to." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Could I move my motion, Mr. Speaker?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "No. I have explained to the hon. member that the motions under this routine proceeding are reserved for the government." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Just for the government?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "But if I had the unanimous consent of the House to move this motion --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "There is no television here." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Do you deny unanimous consent, Mr. Speaker?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "There is no way that the hon. member could do this at this point in time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "You are protecting these guys, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I am following the rules of the House -- the standing orders which have been agreed upon." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, sir, at the end of the question period surely the member was perfectly proper to ask for unanimous consent to extend it for 15 minutes? You should put that to the House." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Well, there were objections. Certainly the hon. member --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "You never put it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I heard objections when it was suggested." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "You sure did." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I heard objections which indicates to me that there would not be unanimous consent, so why waste the time of the House?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "They wouldn’t withhold unanimous consent surely? They just impede democracy." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "We just did." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "All those against it stand up." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Introduction of bills.", "Orders of the day." ] } ]	April 9, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-09/hansard
FARM PRODUCTS GRADES AND SALES ACT	[ { "speaker": "Mr. M. Gaunt (Huron-Bruce)", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I don’t have many comments with respect to this bill; we support it. It does have a number of principles in it.", "The first part of the bill has to do with revoking the power to make regulations with respect to the licensing procedures and in its stead it provides for the various criteria to be set out in the bill itself in regard to licensing. On this side of the House we have long felt that many of these bills should be more explicit; many of them should deal in more precise terms with what exactly is intended and, further, the powers in a bill should be contained in the bill rather than in the regulations.", "Many of the powers given in statutes and bills we pass through this Legislature are expanded and, in some cases, negated to an extent by the regulations. We really have no power in making those regulations although we have a regulations committee which, I believe, reviews the regulations from time to time.", "I don’t mind shouting, Mr. Speaker, but --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Would the Legislature come to order please? The hon. member for Huron-Bruce has the floor and we would like to hear what he has to say on the second reading of Bill 20." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gaunt", "text": [ "Okay, I will talk to the minister (Mr. Stewart); I am sure he can hear me.", "In any case we welcome that particular change in the bill. The power to make regulations is still inherent under the terms of the bill with respect to issuing, or renewing I should say, licences and their suspension and so on, and the conditions involved in fixing fees and so on, and the conditions involved in fixing fees and so on. That is still done by regulation. The prescribing of forms and providing for their use is still done by regulation.", "The point is, there is a step forward in this bill to accommodate, I think, what we have long said on this side of the House, that more power should be set out in the bill rather than by regulation. This bill does precisely that with respect to licensing, or most of the licensing procedures.", "The second thing this bill does is to make provision for a produce licence review board. That concept is something with which we agree and I think we can certainly support that principle.", "The other thing that strikes me about the bill is that it establishes a Produce Arbitration Board to arbitrate disputes arising out of contracts, such as when a company contracts with a farmer and part of the terms or all of the terms of that contract are breached for one reason or the other. I gather that under the terms of this bill, given those circumstances, the farmer can now appeal to the Produce Arbitration Board to arbitrate the dispute between the fanner and the company.", "If, in fact, the terms of the contract have been breached the Produce Arbitration Board has the power to indicate to the company that it will have to follow through on the terms of the commissions and the terms of the contract which it undertook with the farmer. There is an appeal to the courts from the award of the board.", "There are really three forms of appeal in this particular bill with respect to licensing. The director has a form of appeal, in that he can review the matter again; so that really is a form of appeal. Then it can go to the appeal board and thence to the Supreme Court, as I understand it. So there are three levels of appeal. If a person feels that he has been harshly dealt with, or if he has been aggrieved in any way, shape or form, he has that option open to him in the issuing of a licence.", "I think that’s all I have to say about the bill. We feel that it’s basically a housekeeping bill, although it does make a number of new provisions, such as the removal of the regulations with respect to licensing and the creation of the Produce Arbitration Board and the Produce Licence Review Board. These are things with which we agree and we support the bill.", "Just before I close, I would like to get the interpretation of the minister with respect to this Produce Arbitration Board. I hope that my interpretation of its function is correct, because we have had a number of cases where farmers have felt that a company has actually reneged on the terms of an agreement and they have had no legal recourse. Under the terms of this bill, I would presume that they would have recourse to that board." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Riverdale." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. A. Renwick (Riverdale)", "text": [ "As my friend, the member for Huron-Bruce, has said, there appear to be a number of points that are covered in the bill. I take it that, for practical purposes, there are three principles to the bill.", "The first one is to provide for the marking of motor vehicles which transport farm produce and to provide for a system of markers that will be issued as well to prohibiting anybody from transporting farm produce unless there is a marker on the vehicle.", "I take the second principle of the bill to be to incorporate in the Act the present provisions which are set out in the Revised Regulations of Ontario, No. 289, with respect to licences. The Act, as I understand it, as and when it is passed, will provide for three types of licences -- a licence as a dealer, a licence as an operator of a controlled-atmosphere storage plant and a licence as a packer of controlled-atmosphere fruit.", "I would like to have the minister’s assurance that there will be no other types of licences issued by way of regulation, because if such licences were issued by way of regulation, the licensees would not appear to have the benefit of the provisions incorporated in the Act with respect to the Produce Licence Review Board.", "A cursory review of the regulations in the Revised Regulations of Ontario, No. 289 and following under this Act, would indicate that at the present time all of the licences which are provided for by regulation are now being transferred into the Act, and in addition a licence is now being provided for a dealer in farm produce.", "It seems to me to be very important to be clear that while the wording of the Act will permit regulations to be passed with respect to other forms of licences, the intention of the Act appears to be that provision for any new licences to be issued for different categories will come by way of amendment to the Act and will not be done by way of regulation, so that any licensee under this Act will have the benefit of the provisions of the Produce Licence Review Board if there is a refusal to issue, or if there’s revocation or a suspension or a failure to renew a licence. I take that to be the scheme that the minister proposes under the Act.", "The third item is, as my friend, the member for Huron-Bruce has pointed out, a provision for a Produce Arbitration Board so that any dispute under any contract between a licensee and a producer of farm products will automatically be subject to arbitration under the Arbitrations Act, with the additional provision, as is clearly stated, that there would be an appeal from the decision of the arbitrator to a judge of the Supreme Court and, if necessary, to the Court of Appeal.", "I take it that the evil sought to be cured is the situation in which disputes either rankle and go unresolved between a licensee and a producer of farm products, or in which they have to have direct recourse to the courts in order to get the matter settled, which undoubtedly is an expensive procedure.", "I am curious as to whether or not the minister believes the arbitration provision will, in fact, be substantially cheaper for the parties to it than the normal court process. I interpolate that it would appear the minister is satisfied there has to be some different intermediary step for the settlement of disputes between producers of farm products and licence holders rather than having them, as I say, either rankle without going to the courts and remain unresolved, or requiring the parties to them to take the contractual dispute to the court.", "It would appear to me that the provisions which are set out in the bill covering these three principles -- that is the incorporation into the Act of the provisions with respect to the issuance of the three types of licences; the provision with respect to the Produce Arbitration Board -- are well merited and the bill would have our support.", "I am curious that the Produce Licence Review Board is to consist of not fewer than three people and that none of them is to be a member of the public service in the employ of the Ministry of Agriculture and Food. My curiosity asks why should it be necessary to have any member of the public service sitting on the Produce Licence Review Board, whether that person be in the employ of the Ministry of Agriculture and Food or any other branch of the public service.", "I also note it is specifically provided in the Produce Arbitration Board’s constitution that it’s to be made up of one dealer and one producer of farm products. Presumably, the one dealer would be able to represent the other licensees -- namely, the licensees who would be the ones holding licences as operators of controlled-atmosphere storage plants or licences as packers of fruit in controlled-atmospheres -- and that it would not be necessary to provide specifically for that particular type of interest to be represented on a Produce Arbitration Board set up to arbitrate a dispute with respect to such a storage plant.", "With those comments, it would appear to us that the bill merits the support of this party and we would so support it on second reading. I do hope the minister will take the time to answer the two or three questions which I have raised during the course of my remarks." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Essex South." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. A. Paterson (Essex South)", "text": [ "I hadn’t intended speaking on this piece of legislation as I thought it looked quite acceptable to the people in my area, but there are one or two areas which have sort of whetted my imagination and I would like some clarification from the minister.", "It relates to section 2 and the principle contained therein concerning issuing markers for motor vehicles owned or leased by persons licensed as dealers and prohibiting any person from transporting the produce unless there is a marker on the vehicle. As I recall from my days in the produce business, there were numerous itinerant dealers with numerous types of vehicles marked and unmarked, and so forth.", "I just wonder what effect this is going to have on the transactions in the fruit and vegetable industries. I assume it’s not going to affect in any way a recognized dealer who is going to transport his produce to the Ontario Food Terminal or elsewhere through PCV carriers that he has engaged for many years. I’m just curious to ask for a little further explanation of this particular section.", "There is one other area that bothers me, since we are trained in the British sense of justice, I know this is common in other bills, but there is a clause here that the applicant may or may not be granted a licence if there is “reasonable ground for belief that the business will not be carried on in accordance with the law.” This tends to bother me and I realize that the minister and his officials have many years of experience in dealing with people in the business, some of whom have flouted laws of the province. No doubt these are the matters that are taken into consideration in this regard, but it still bothers me as a Liberal to prejudge a person who is going to enter into business as to whether he will conduct his affairs ethically or otherwise.", "The other matter is in relation to the operators of controlled-atmosphere storage plants. The owner or the operator of the controlled-atmosphere storage plant must now hold a licence as an operator and similarly he must be a packer of controlled-atmosphere fruits, according to what I read into this.", "I realize, Mr. Speaker, there’s a very special onus on a person who has a CA facility in that for long periods of time they do store the produce of many other growers in the area, so they are a special entity. I think this is good that they have to be licensed to know what they are doing for the protection of the other growers whose produce they are holding in storage.", "I just wonder if there is any other special onus on these people in regard to liability once the licence has been given to them. Is this covered by insurance and so forth in case of malpractice? I assume there would be none if the person were so licensed.", "My colleagues have commented on the Produce Licence Review Board and the Produce Arbitration Board, and I think setting up these two boards is worthy. The only problem in this regard is that there are numerous people in my area who are both growers and dealers. I just wonder if they are excluded from possibly being appointed into the Produce Arbitration Board. As indicated, they must be a holder of a licence as a dealer and I assume that this would apply to both grower-dealers and straight dealers.", "I conclude with these few remarks, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Kent." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. P. Spence (Kent)", "text": [ "The member for Essex South has discussed the point that I was going to bring up." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Are there any other members who wish to speak on Bill 20 before the minister replies?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. A. Stewart (Minister of Agriculture and Food)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the comments made by the hon. members opposite with regard to the bill. The function of the Produce Arbitration Board, if I may deal with that one in general terms, is really to try to resolve some of the points of argument that can arise out of disputes over the sale of produce without having to go through the formal procedure of an application to the courts. There is, of course, the final right in the bill to take the matter to the courts if they wish to, but we felt that this would be a somewhat more informal procedure and, as my friend from Riverdale mentioned, we think it will be perhaps less expensive to the people involved. In some cases there are not --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Paterson", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, might I ask a question for clarification?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "Yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Paterson", "text": [ "Would this involve disputes where, say, something is sent in on consignment for sale and this type of argument may exist between the grower and the consignee?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "Yes, it could, Mr. Speaker, but we have envisaged that it might be more applicable where a trucker goes around the country buying potatoes, or apples, or whatever it may be, and some sort of a verbal agreement has been reached in the past that either party may have misunderstood in the rush of the hour at harvest time and disputes arise. Sometimes there are misunderstandings that, I think, may have been honest misunderstandings. But I’m afraid that, based on some of the evidence that we have had brought to our attention by the people involved in the trade, there have been attempts made in some cases to circumvent the terms of the agreement. So this Produce Arbitration Board, which is really a new approach, should work and, we think, will help to resolve some of those difficulties.", "As to the matter of markers on vehicles, it’s the same as now. It is required now that there be markers on these vehicles and I believe that it does expedite the inspection procedures to have the marker on the vehicle indicating that that vehicle is one that carries the particular produce in question." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Is that presently in the regulations?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "Yes, it’s presently in the regulations, so there is really nothing new about it. It’s just re-emphasizing it and re-wording it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Thank you." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "There will be no other types of licences issued other than those referred to in this bill, so that that matter is cleared up. We felt if any other type of licence is required to be issued by some other type of the industry, then that will necessitate an amendment to the Act." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Paterson", "text": [ "I would like a clarification again, Mr. Speaker. May I ask if, in a pinch, certain vehicles are not available and a produce company leases a vehicle, are these licences transferable to leased units on a short-term basis?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "Does the member mean the markers?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Paterson", "text": [ "Yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "I see no reason why they shouldn’t be, but my director of inspections is back here under the gallery. That’s a neat legal question and I’m not sure. I see no reason why they shouldn’t be, but I’m not sure whether that’s possible. Is it or not? Yes, I’m told that it is possible, but I would think that we wouldn’t encourage that to be done if possible.", "With regard to civil service representation on both the Licence Review Board and the Produce Arbitration Board, I have some reservations about civil service representation there. I’m always afraid that somebody might say that someone within government is trying to influence a decision that was being made, and I think we want to relieve ourselves, and any minister who might happen to be handling the ministry, of any such insinuation which might come from some place. I would hope that it wouldn’t.", "The matter raised by my friend from Essex South of the applicant being granted a licence or not granted a licence on the basis of ethics, is, plain and simple, a matter that I think has to be left to the discretion of the director, with his knowledge of the applicant’s past business dealings in the community. There have been some real fly-by-night operators who have fleeced producers right, left and centre. I think we have to be very sure that those people are not granted a licence by this government, or by any other government, to go out and carry on that type of a nefarious practice.", "Based on his knowledge, if the director says “No, you don’t qualify for a licence” and he simply sends in his son, or his brother, or his wife the next day to apply for a licence -- and we know it’s the same outfit that’s involved -- I think that the director has every right to question the validity of that application and whether or not it should be granted.", "Now, of course, there is the right of appeal and that applicant has the right to take that to the appeal board where both sides have the opportunity -- the applicant and the director -- to clearly state before the Licence Review Board why they should or should not receive favourable consideration in the application for the licence.", "I would say this, that we have gone over this legislation pretty carefully with the Ontario Fruit and Vegetable Growers Association marketing board executive officers and we have also discussed it, as I understand it, with several of the responsible produce dealers in Ontario. So that both sides are reasonably knowledgeable about what we are trying to do here and I think both have a keen appreciation for an honest effort being made to come to grips with the situation, which has been something less than desirable over the last few years.", "I suppose the matter of accessibility of various farms throughout the area, the ability to move produce by trucks and highways easily and quickly, does provide the opportunity for some practices to evolve that are less than desirable.", "But I would think that there is an onus on the producer to see that he does negotiate a deal with whomever it is he is selling the produce to and then have that deal marked down in writing -- not on the back of some envelope or a cigarette package, but a legitimate type of a contract, a bill of sale; and then the Produce Arbitration Board has something to work with.", "I’m afraid that all too often in the past there may have been these informal types of deals made that have ended up in misunderstandings for all concerned and some pretty hard feelings have evolved out of it all.", "In the final analysis they come to our ministry’s inspectors and say to them, “Now you resolve this thing, this is my side of the story.”", "Our people, who really have no obligation to try to resolve these matters in technical or statutory terms, but simply because they know the parties involved, in an attempt to resolve the issue may contact the other party and find that there is really nothing to go on.", "So, Mr. Speaker, we are urging that there be some type of formal agreement drawn up between the various parties to these deals; and I think that that would just make good common sense. So I appreciate the support of the hon. members opposite, Mr. Speaker, on second reading." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Spence", "text": [ "May I ask a question of the minister in regard to clarification?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "Yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Spence", "text": [ "Now this doesn’t mean that if the producer delivers his vegetables or fruit or whatever to a plant, he doesn’t need a licence to do that, or that he doesn’t need to have a marking on his vehicle." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "No, I should have that recorded in Hansard, Mr. Speaker; the answer is “no” to that.", "Motion agreed to; second reading of the bill." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Shall the bill be ordered for third reading?", "Agreed." ] } ]	April 9, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-09/hansard
THIRD READING	[]	April 9, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-09/hansard
AGRICULTURAL SOCIETIES ACT	[ { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Huron-Bruce." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gaunt", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, just a few brief comments about this bill. Essentially it is a housekeeping bill. There are a lot of changes being made, but not really fundamental changes, so I don’t think that I’ll use the opportunity to launch a --" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Go ahead." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "Yes, there are. They are great." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gaunt", "text": [ "Well, there are changes, but are they fundamental -- raising the membership from $1 to $2?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "Well, no." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gaunt", "text": [ "There are some things that are more significant than that one, but I don’t want to use this opportunity to launch a long speech on the role of agricultural societies in the community and the changes that should be made in regard to making their role more effective, and on the position of the small rural fair as opposed to the large county fair. I don’t want to get into that discussion, although I think I could on a bill of this nature.", "On the matter of the fee required by organizing members, I am curious why that is being raised. It’s not a major change, but the point is that the fee is not normally considered to be a money-raising device within the society. I am wondering what the theory is behind the change in the members’ fee from $1 to $2. It’s just a curious note that I inject into the matter at this point, Mr. Speaker. I really couldn’t find a reason why that would be done other than to raise more money and, as I say, the raising of money through this particular device within the agricultural society is pretty limited to say the least.", "Regarding the other changes, I am pleased to see that homestead improvement competitions carried out by agricultural societies are now grantable. I think that is a good change and one which I am sure will be welcomed by all agricultural societies across the province. Many of them have undertaken these competitions, and I think that the agricultural benefits as well as the community under whose ambit the agricultural society comes, because it improves the countryside and the appearance. I think it is a good thing, and its a good direction in which to move with respect to this kind of thing.", "I am pleased to see that that is now grantable and the Act has been broadened to recognize that new role of the agricultural society. It used to be that the agricultural society was a one- or two- or perhaps three-day event in the minds of people. I think that has changed.", "The agricultural society now is becoming more of a year-round activity in a lot of communities throughout this province. I think that is a good thing, essentially because the small rural fairs were having a very difficult time to make ends meet. They were faced with a dwindling rural population, with reduced revenues on fall-fair day, and in many cases they just couldn’t see their way clear to keep going.", "But they have broadened their approach in many cases. They have got into the homestead improvement competitions, amateur nights as well as events surrounding horse racing and, in some cases, horse shows. All of these things tend to come at various periods throughout the year, so that rather than having a function once a year, the agricultural societies, particularly the smaller and medium-sized ones, are holding what used to be considered so-called extracurricular activities throughout the year. In this way they are involving their people pretty well on a continuous basis, which is all to the good, I think.", "This bill recognizes those shifts and changes in the role of the agricultural society, and for that I am grateful.", "I noticed that the bill takes into account the matter of enforcement. I don’t think it has been a frequent occurrence, but there have been some occasions when the so-called hucksters have tried to invade the fall fairs, and the directors have been placed in a very difficult position to try to keep them out. I think on a few occasions they weren’t able to keep them out. So I think this is a good change.", "I see that the penalty is raised from $50 to $100 where an offence has been committed. I’m wondering if this is high enough. I pose that question to the minister. Perhaps it should be $200 or $300 because some of these people are very persistent and, particularly at a larger fair, they know they can make a good dollar quickly and they are prepared to take their chances. I would suggest to the minister that perhaps that amount should be reconsidered. I don’t think $100 is any great deterrent to these people who are bound and bent on getting in regardless of what they are told.", "The grants or loans given by municipalities to agricultural societies are, I think, a very important aspect of the operation of an agricultural society. I think that during the lifetime of these societies, most municipalities have given grants and/or loans to these societies, and the municipalities have played a pretty important role in the success and the growth of agricultural societies throughout the provinces. As I understand the Act, as presently drafted, the limits placed on municipalities in regard to grants and loans are removed; they can now give whatever they deem to be proper by way of assistance through grants and loans to the agricultural societies. I think that is a move in the right direction, as well.", "Basically, then, we support the changes. We hope that they will result in the growth of fall fairs across the province. We hope that they will result in improved quality at the fall fairs.", "Basically, if that purpose is accomplished, then I think the rural communities throughout Ontario will be the big beneficiaries of the changes in this Act.", "While I am on this topic I’ll take this opportunity to say to the minister -- and I think he believes it; certainly his director has said this on a number of occasions -- that a small rural fair is a very important event in the life of a community. I think that it galvanizes and pulls together the people in that community the way nothing else does. People who hardly ever see one another all year round end up working together at the fall fair.", "I think that if the small fairs throughout the province ever disappear, which I hope they don’t, it will be another stumbling block in the way of better rural-urban relations. And I think that we will have driven another nail in the coffin of a small rural community if it loses its fall fair.", "The fall fair is a very important event. I think this government and the federal government should be doing everything they possibly can to ensure that these fall fairs are encouraged to continue, to grow and to become more active. Thank you very much." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have only one question and a comment or a warning about the bill. My question is, I am most curious as to the way the ministry decides upon the size of the grants which are going to be made, and I would certainly appreciate it if the minister would refer to the specific $300 grant under the one clause and a grant of not more than $500 and then $200 and $75 and a maximum of $1,500. Presumably there must be some sort of arbitrary decision as to what the amount will be, but I would be interested to know why those particular figures were selected and what the reasoning behind it would be in making the selection of those particular figures.", "The word of caution that I want to indicate is, that the bill provides for the board of directors of one of these societies appointing special constables on a pro-tem basis for practical purposes during the course of the operation of the fair. The Act as it presently stands provides that it would be the justice of the peace in the area who would, in fact, appoint such persons to act on a pro-tem basis as constables. The reason I raise it is that I question very much whether or not the board of directors of a society should either be given the authority or saddled with the responsibility of making that kind of appointment.", "It would seem to me to be more proper that perhaps the board of directors would nominate the persons whom they suggest but that the actual appointments should be made either by the justice of the peace, or by the judge of the county or district court, or by the senior police board in the area, in order to make certain that the persons who are appointed both recognize the responsibility that they have to discharge and are aware of the danger of the liability which they might incur if they were to discharge their duties improperly.", "Under the two sections where those persons are given authority to act in addition to any regular constables who may be in attendance, they have the power -- in the one case the language referred is “to remove” and in the other case the language used is “to eject” -- and of course the power to remove and the power to eject is, within certain time limits, in substance, the power to arrest, that is, to forcibly take hold, arrest or assault, and that means to take hold of someone forcibly to remove him from the premises.", "In most cases perhaps there is no question that it would be done both properly and reasonably, but at the same time the persons who are appointed as special constables run the risk that they may use more force than is necessary for the purpose. They may injure some person. They may very well improperly exercise their duties.", "It would seem to me that, rather than have the board of directors themselves appointing those persons to act as constables pro-tem, the appointment of them should be made perhaps on recommendation of the board of directors, either as to the number who are required or to the persons who might fulfil the role, and to have the appointment, in fact, made by a person holding a judicial responsibility in the area in order to make sure that there would be some occasion or some opportunity to instruct the persons within the limitations of their authority, the way in which they are to conduct themselves and the scope of their authority, so that they do discharge their responsibilities properly as and when the occasion may require and so that they do not incur the kind of personal liability that they might very well incur if they were to abuse or misuse the authority which is granted to them in the bill.", "Perhaps it is just a word of caution, perhaps there is no significance to it, but I wanted to mention it because it could very well be a situation which could lead to substantial difficulty, and I am not quite certain where the actual liability resides. It may well be, in a situation like this where constables are appointed pro-tem, that there may possibly be an adequate provision made for some kind of grant of immunity if they act in good faith and in a reasonable way in the carrying out of their duties, or some such protection for them. I don’t pretend to know all the ramifications but I am concerned that the board of directors should have this authority." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for York Centre." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. M. Deacon (York Centre)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to support what the minister is trying to do in connection with the agricultural societies. They certainly play a very important role in my own community. We have had problems there, though, because of the increase in land values and the constraints of space. In Markham, for example, they have sold the fairgrounds and they are going to be moving to a new area.", "There has been a lot of rivalry, both in Markham and Richmond Hill, between urban elements -- or what I call the city people -- moving into the area and the interests and pressures they bring, and those who are the established people who have run these affairs in the past. Sometimes newer people have a lot of difficulty understanding the special knowledge and expertise of those who have been in the community a long time.", "Those rural people who have been there a long time understand the agricultural aspects of the fall fairs and what’s needed to make them successful. Sometimes it’s lost on those coming into a community who don’t understand and don’t support those people who, to my mind, have made these fairs the great success and the important attraction they have been to a city like Toronto.", "In connection with one clause; I want to get clarification from the minister. That is the matter of clause 5 which says:", "Where a society exhibits a display of a farm product that is produced on a commercial basis or holds a fieldcrop or other competition ... is approved by the superintendent ....", "Is that a requirement that it must be approved or is it just a situation that when they are looking for grant support it has to be approved by the superintendent?", "It is not clear from the wording and perhaps it does mean that if the province is going to give a grant, naturally the superintendent should have some say as well as receiving a report afterwards. Other than that, I am pleased to see the limit of support to municipalities is removed. Certainly in our area it will be important that we have very substantial municipal support in order that these fairs ran continue to exist and flourish." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Lanark." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. J. Wiseman (Lanark)", "text": [ "Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I would like, on behalf of the five fair boards in the area I represent and the two just outside my riding, to thank the minister for bringing this legislation forward. Any of us who attends these fairs knows that the light horse shows in the area have become very popular and there are a lot of young children who have horses and show them. The fair boards have found it difficult to arrange for prize money and I think this maximum of $500 will certainly go a long way to help them. As for the amateur entertainment, I think most of our small fairs have found this to be quite an expense and there again I would like to congratulate the minister.", "I would like to say, though, that in the bigger fairs like the Toronto exhibition and the Ottawa exhibition -- I know we give a lot of money and it’s not in this bill -- if we could put some restrictions on their entertainment or try to talk to them about bringing in American entertainment in place of some Canadian it would be worthwhile; I think we need a good combination of both. I would like again to thank the minister on behalf of our boards.", "There is one thing that bothers me. Will these grants be available to all fairs regardless of size in the area, regardless of the class A fair or B or whatever it might be? Thank you, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Essex South." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Paterson", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, there is one area in this bill which bothers me. That is section 7 and the principle of that concerning the power of the officers of the agricultural society to regulate, prohibit and prevent certain things happening within 300 yd of, or on their particular exhibition grounds. I concur certainly with the intent of this -- that they prohibit theatrical, circus or acrobatic performances or exhibitions within that area -- and the following line indicates that they may regulate or prevent huckstering or trafficking in fruit. I wonder if that should be fruit and vegetables.", "The other point that I would like to make in this regard is as to whether this particular legislation supersedes a transient trader’s licence that may have been granted to what well term a huckster or an itinerant sales person by the municipality in which the fair is going to take place. I can think of many instances where transient traders’ licences are given out, much to the worry or chagrin of the retail merchants in that community. It’s bothersome for them and I’m sure it would be to the officers of an agricultural society who have a very few days in which to carry out their year’s activity.", "Would, in fact, this legislation supersede the case of, say, a local person who has a transient traders licence, who possibly has an ice cream or popcorn vending wagon from coming within 300 yd of that exhibition or not? I would like to know the legal ramifications of this and have that clarified today, so that proper enforcement may take place if such is the case." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Does any other member wish to speak before the minister replies? Mr. Minister." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’m very keen about this bill, quite frankly. I really believe that this not only goes a very long way to assist the people of rural Ontario in the agricultural societies to govern their own affairs more appropriately than they have been able to do in the past, but it expands their sphere of influence within the local community.", "Perhaps the local agricultural societies and the fall fairs -- some 240 of them across the Province of Ontario today -- are providing one of the last vestiges of real community life as we have known it throughout generations in this province of ours. To some degree the local communities have disappeared in many respects. There isn’t the same community spirit. I’ve said this before in this House, Mr. Speaker, and being a rural person yourself you will understand, that the advent of the combine and the forage harvester to my mind had more to do with the abandonment of the community spirit as we knew it, when we got together as gangs of people working together as a community effort. That’s all over with." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)", "text": [ "That’s been augmented to some extent by the introduction of regional government." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "Oh, of course. But the introduction of regional government didn’t have nearly as much to do with it as the centralization of township schools. That’s where it really started off in that degree. The local school was the centre of the community, just as the local rural church was. And all of that we predicated on how far you could drive a horse or walk on a Sunday. But with the advent of the car this is altogether different today. The advent of the school buses and the centralization of schools has to some degree removed that spirit of community effort that we used to have.", "The agricultural societies, being strictly representative of the rural communities, have continued on. As someone has said this afternoon, they have expanded their sphere of interest and they’ve grown. Contrary to the predictions that were made by many people that they would disappear from the scene of rural Ontario, they have strengthened their positions, because they have kept up to date with the local communities in many cases. Those societies that have recognized the fact that many urban people have moved out, that there’s a changing characteristic to rural Ontario today, and have focused their attention on catering to the new interests that we find in rural Ontario have been able, I think, to provide an even better service than we ever had in the past.", "We look upon the Act in the housekeeping clauses to which hon. members have referred. My friend from Huron-Bruce asked why the organizing fee went up from $1 to $2. At the same time we reduced the numbers from 25 to 10 to organize the society. So, really, there are not many dollars involved. But I suppose that the executive, when they asked that this be done, felt that $1 in 1974 and on really wasn’t a very significant amount, nor I suppose is $2. So we were pleased to grant that request of the agricultural societies to be able to go ahead on that basis.", "The hon. member for Riverdale raised a question that was of concern to me, I must confess, when the bill was first discussed with us by the executive officers of the Ontario Association of Agricultural Societies. I suppose that that is one of the strongest organizations we have in rural Ontario today. Their annual meeting is something to behold believe me; with well over 1,000 delegates, it is quite a major exercise.", "The special officer status prompted me to refer the whole matter to the law officers of the Crown, and we reviewed it thoroughly. Quite frankly, these are not special constables; they have no real police powers, and yet my friend from Riverdale did suggest the power to remove or eject does connote physical effort and the necessity of probably taking hold of a person and ejecting him if the occasion warranted such action.", "On the other hand, these special constables would have the same power to remove or eject as any property owner now does when someone is on his property improperly, and as such they are agents of the owners of the agricultural society or the fairgrounds. In other words, they are the people who own that property.", "Now, we really don’t believe that the powers of appointment of police officers have been exceeded. As a matter of fact, we have the approval of the Attorney General’s office for this legislation, and it has been carefully worded to do just what they have asked to be done and to meet with the approval of the law officers of the Crown.", "I would suppose -- and I am not prompted to suggest this by any notes that have arrived on my desk -- that several of the security firms that now provide this service probably could be employed to provide this service to the various exhibitions. Some of them are now doing it. Others are not. In some cases, they have used Ontario Provincial Police officers, but there are just not enough to go round in the fall fair season.", "The matter of the increase of the fine to more than $100 is something that prompts me to wonder if that $100 is enough, quite frankly. It is not much in today’s economy and, as my friend from Essex South mentioned, there are people who come there who are -- for want of a better word -- so-called hucksters, who could find themselves in the position of making a very fast dollar, and perhaps in a bit of a slippery way, and I am wondering if indeed the $100 fine is enough.", "On the other hand there is the right of the fair board to have its security people or those who are carrying out the enforcement of the regulations of the fair within 300 yds. Perhaps that’s sufficient. The same regulations pertain to fairs like the CNE or the larger shows like the Ottawa and London exhibitions, so perhaps there is no real problem there. But the matter of the fine does prompt me to wonder a bit if perhaps we should be looking at that matter.", "One other matter that was raised is how the grants are arrived at. This is indeed an arbitrary figure. In order to set a budget, we take the number of exhibitions in the province and base it on their indication of what participation they will have -- and that’s based a bit on their past experience as well as on other things. But of course this is new, and we simply set these figures as being what we can live with within our budget and that’s simply one-third of what they will pay out up to this maximum.", "Frankly, I think that the opportunity to develop these farmstead improvement competitions is one of the best and most far-reaching steps for the betterment and improvement of rural Ontario that I can think of. Every one of us is fully aware of what happens as far as the international plowing match is concerned, where we have the farmstead improvement competitions associated with that, and the betterment of the rural communities is abundantly evident for all to see.", "Unfortunately, it only moves around from county to county in the various parts of the province; and many other parts of the province, with a little bit of inspiration and enthusiasm and support and initiative from some local body, could perhaps achieve the same degree of success. We’re simply making it possible in this amendment to assist the focal agricultural societies to do what the international agricultural societies’ executive have been able to do for some time.", "With regard to amateur shows, I’ve been impressed, Mr. Speaker, with the tremendous wealth of talent we have throughout rural Ontario. We have so many young people who are far more talented, I guess, than we were in our day, and I think they should have the opportunity to display their talents. Perhaps they only require the opportunity to present whatever they can do before the public and, surely, there’s no better place than through the local fair boards’ activities. So that is why this has been introduced.", "The special grants available to the light horse shows have been introduced simply to keep pace with the new look in rural Ontario, where we have many people now having pony clubs and light horse shows, and I think that this legislation will help to come to grips with all of these matters.", "I’d like to refer the bill, if I might, Mr. Speaker, to the committee of the whole House, because there may be, after further consideration, an amendment that I would like to make at that time, which would be consistent with a suggestion made by the Provincial Auditor.", "Motion agreed to; second reading of the bill." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "It is my understanding that the bill is to go to the committee of the whole House." ] } ]	April 9, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-09/hansard
NOTICE OF MOTION NO. 1	[ { "speaker": "Clerk of the House", "text": [ "Government notice of motion No. 1.", "Hon. Mr. White moves that this House approve in general the budgetary policy of the government." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon (Leader of the Opposition)", "text": [ "That’ll never carry." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. J. Bounsall (Windsor West)", "text": [ "Lots of enthusiasm for that." ] } ]	April 9, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-09/hansard
BUDGET ADDRESS	[ { "speaker": "Hon. J. White (Treasurer and Minister of Economic and Intergovernmental Affairs)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, needless to say I’m very privileged, indeed to have the opportunity once again of presenting a budget to the legislative assembly and to invite the support of the members.", "As I do so, I point out something that may not be universally known, namely that this is the last day that Ian Macdonald will be Deputy Treasurer of Ontario, and while he has been praised by the Premier (Mr. Davis) and the leaders of the opposition parties, I would like to pay my personal respects and give my personal thanks to him for his assistance to me over the years, and more particularly in the last 15 months. He is a man who is clever, wise and good and I know hell do well at York. He’s taking applications for honorary degrees." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. V. M. Singer (Downsview)", "text": [ "Is the Treasurer first on the list?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "I think not.", "He will be a special adviser to the Premier until the end of June. Our regret at seeing Ian leave is mitigated to some extent by his successor, who is sitting behind him fittingly enough, Mr. Kendall Dick, who will become the Deputy Treasurer tomorrow. I look forward to working with Mr. Dick in this new capacity.", "May I take a further moment to thank Dr. Terry Russell, assistant deputy minister; Mr. Duncan Allan, executive director; and Mr. George McIntyre, executive director; and their staffs, for the untold hours they put into the budgetary preparation, indeed for 11 months or more. I thank them very much for their unstinting help and the enormous dedication of their staffs. Thank you very much indeed.", "I’m glad also to point out that in the Speaker’s gallery as guests of Mr. Speaker, together with my wife Beatrice, are friends of mine from Ontario, from Quebec and from Bermuda. We hope they’ll find this an interesting session for them all, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. T. P. Reid (Rainy River)", "text": [ "The Treasurer won’t have any after today." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. G. Davis (Premier)", "text": [ "The member would be surprised." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the most important problem facing us today is inflation. The year 1973 is one of record growth in Canada and in Ontario, but excessive price rises eroded much of the benefit which should have accompanied this strong development. Prices have accelerated steadily and we are faced with the prospect of 10 per cent inflation in 1974.", "This worldwide phenomenon is threatening the stability and growth of the economies of the industrialized world. The growing shortage of basic raw materials and energy supplies is adding to inflationary pressures. There is little prospect for an early return to price stability unless all jurisdictions employ the powers at their disposal with new determination and courage. The government of Ontario is willing to use every practical measure within its constitutional jurisdiction to combat inflation in the expectation that other responsible organizations in the public and private sectors will do the same. This is our promise and this is our challenge.", "The forces of inflation are durable and persistent. To beat back these forces requires concerted action by all levels of government. Ontario will provide the leadership by initiating a course of forceful action which includes: New measures to offset the effects of inflation; new measures to restrain inflation, new measures to stimulate supply; new measures to share with the public the profits of inflation; and new measures to share resources with local governments.", "Our success in controlling inflation will depend on the co-operation of the wage earner, the consumer and the businessman. But it will also depend greatly on leadership and action by the federal government to puncture the myth that inflation is inevitable and to restore confidence in the belief that every Canadian will share in rising prosperity.", "All members are aware of the inequitable impact of inflation on low-income families and other groups on relatively fixed incomes. The first part of the government’s strategy for dealing with inflation consists of proposals for substantial new programmes to offset the effects of inflation.", "These are: A guaranteed annual income programme for the elderly, the blind and the disabled; free prescription drugs for elderly persons with low incomes and for all individuals on social assistance; enriched tax credits, including a doubling of the property tax credit to take into account the increased cost of heating; and a broadening of exemptions under the Retail Sales Tax Act.", "I am proposing a new guaranteed annual income system, to be known as GAINS, for the elderly, blind and disabled in Ontario. The GAINS programme will guarantee an income of $50 a week for all single persons and $100 a week for all married couples who are aged 65 and over, and for those who are blind or disabled and receive family benefits. This represents a guaranteed annual cash income of $5,200 a year for a married couple and $2,600 a year for a single person. In future, the guaranteed income levels will be increased periodically in order to maintain the purchasing power of these benefits.", "This programme will commence July 1, 1974. In this fiscal year GAINS will provide $75 million in increased cash income for people in need. More than 310,000 people will receive Ontario GAINS cheques in July, 1974. This will include 270,000 pensioners who are eligible for the federal Guaranteed Income Supplement and a further 10,000 low-income elderly who are ineligible for GIS because they do not meet the federal residency requirement of 10 years. No fewer than 120,000 pensioners will receive the maximum GAINS entitlement. With the introduction of this programme, blind and disabled persons will be entitled for the first time to the same income guarantee as those who are over age 65.", "In addition to GAINS, Ontario will initiate a new programme to remove the burden of high drug costs on needy pensioners. For all people who receive the guaranteed income supplement and those on provincial assistance programmes, the government will provide free prescription drugs. This programme will begin in September and will cost $12 million in the current fiscal year. Details will be announced by the Minister of Health (Mr. Miller)." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Cassidy (Ottawa Centre)", "text": [ "Why not now?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. F. Foulds (Port Arthur)", "text": [ "Why wait until spring? Do it now." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "Because it can’t be done now; it has to be organized.", "Mr. Speaker, I am also proposing a substantial enrichment and improvement of Ontario’s tax credits to minimize the burden of shelter costs for those families most vulnerable to the eroding powers of inflation.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "The property credit will double from $90 to $180. The pensioner credit will increase from $100 to $110 and the maximum tax credit entitlement will be raised from $400 to $500, with the offset rate being increased from one to two per cent of taxable income. These improvements will ensure that maximum benefits flow to those most in need of relief from rising living costs, including home heating, and will further reduce the burden of property taxes.", "Ontario’s fair sharing tax credit system will now provide $375 million in benefits to Ontario families and individuals compared to $305 million in 1973. It is also becoming increasingly important to increase the scope and flexibility of the Ontario tax credits so that the administration of the tax credit system and GAINS will be fully integrated. Initially, GAINS will be administered separately by the Ontario Ministry of Revenue; however, in recognition of the advantages which accrue in the long run through the integration of the income security and tax credit systems, Ontario plans to assume the full administration of its tax credit system." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "All the publicity --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "As a further measure to help restore the purchasing power of the consumers’ dollars. I am proposing to remove the retail sales tax from a broad range of items. First, I propose to exempt a number of personal hygiene items such as toothpaste, baby powder, soap, deodorants and feminine hygiene products.", "Secondly, I propose to exempt a broad list of household products used for washing and cleaning purposes. A detailed list of the new exemptions is included in the appendix A list, budget statement.", "The value of these sales tax exemptions is estimated to be $28 million in this fiscal year. Ontario’s exemptions are more extensive than those granted by any other Canadian province employing sales taxes, or by neighbouring states in the USA.", "Thirdly, I am proposing the full exemption of all footwear sold for $30 or less. This will remove the sales tax from all children’s shoes and most adult shoes, as well as from lower-priced skates, cleats and athletic footwear.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "That’s so the Treasurer can skate around a little better." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "Until now children’s shoes up to size 6 have been exempt. The value of this new exemption is estimated at $15 million a year.", "Children’s clothing presents a taxation problem similar to that for shoes. The use of a size criterion for exemption inevitably means that the sales tax bears on clothing for larger than average children while the exemption is enjoyed by smaller adults. The government is interested in correcting the situation so that all children’s clothing is free of the retail sales tax. I’m considering a tax credit mechanism, but invite any other ideas to achieve this desired result for the 1975 budget.", "These sales tax cuts will lower the cost of many important items to Ontario consumers by $43 million in this fiscal year. The changes will take effect after the necessary legislation is passed by the Legislature.", "Mr. Speaker, the proposals which I have made for decreasing the effects of inflation are comprehensive and long-lasting. The sales tax exemption will be a benefit to all of our people. The GAINS programme will ensure that Ontario’s elderly citizens enjoy a good standard of living during their retirement years and that our blind and disabled people are guaranteed equal income benefits.", "The enriched tax credits will further reduce the burden of property taxes and home heating costs; and free prescription drugs will provide significant assistance to those in need.", "The GAINS programme and the improved tax credit system are an important step toward a comprehensive guaranteed income system for Ontario citizens. The government intends to build on these advances and invites the suggestions of interested groups for improvements to these programmes in the future.", "In summary, the measures I propose involve an additional $200 million to offset the effects of inflation.", "Mr. Speaker, I should now like to describe three important new measures to restrain inflation. They are designed to stabilize land prices and encourage Canadian ownership of Ontario real estate, and to freeze public transit fares.", "One cause of present inflation is the rapidly escalating price of land. Some increase in land prices is to be expected because of the steady process of urbanization and the need to accommodate 100,000 new families in Ontario each year. There is no doubt, however, that speculation, both by Canadian residents and by non-residents, bids up prices artificially, increases the cost of housing and generates unwarranted windfall gains.", "Therefore, Mr. Speaker, I am proposing a new tax to discourage this speculative activity. This tax has two objectives: To reduce the escalation of land and housing prices and to recover for the public a major share of windfall gains from land speculation. The land speculation tax will go into effect at midnight tonight. It will impose an additional 50 per cent tax on the increase in value realized on the sale of designated land. Over and above this tax, normal personal and corporate income taxes will apply. The speculation tax is designed to bear most heavily on owners of land and properties which are purchased and resold without any real value being added.", "There is a table, sir, in the statement, showing that the maximum rate of tax on corporations will thereby go to 87 per cent and on individuals to 81 per cent, providing they are Canadian residents.", "The government does not wish to discourage development and construction of industrial, commercial, or residential buildings. Accordingly, exemptions will be provided in the following instances:", "Sale of property used for commercial and industrial purposes, including tourist establishments, will be exempt;", "Sale of property where the vendor has complied with a subdivision agreement and constructed residential or commercial premises, will be exempt;", "Sale of property where the vendor has purchased serviced land and constructed residential or commercial premises, will be exempt;", "Homeowners will be exempt from the land speculation tax on their principal residence, including 10 acres of land;", "A principal recreational property, including 20 acres of land, will also be exempt.", "This latter exemption will not apply, however, when the purchaser of the recreational property, such as a cottage, is a non-resident of Canada.", "People who trade in non-principal properties will be taxed on any gain which they realize from the sale of these non-principal residences.", "Persons who effectively dispose of land through transfers of corporate shares will also be required to pay the tax.", "Family farms will be exempt from the land speculation tax when the farms are transferred within the family and continued in agricultural use. When disposed of outside the family, these farms will bear the tax on the appreciation in value after April 9 in excess of 10 per cent compounded annually. This feature will help to retain land in agricultural use and also ensure that the tax does not apply unfairly to farmers, whose income, capital and pension stream is largely tied up in the form of land.", "The following features will also be incorporated into the land speculation tax:", "Acquisition cost will be the fair market value on April 9, or the actual cost if purchased after April 9, 1974;", "In determining the increase in value after April 9, capital improvement costs and reasonable carrying charges not exceeding 10 per cent per annum will be allowed as eligible deductions. These eligible deductions also apply to family farms;", "The land speculation tax will not apply in the case of expropriations, sales to all governments and agencies thereof, nor to Canadian resource properties in Ontario.", "The government of Ontario recognizes that strong measures are required to curb the excessive land speculation now occurring. We are determined to proceed with firm action. At the same time we recognize that this is a complex matter and unforeseen problems may emerge in administering this new tax. Thus, during the first year of operation I envisage a series of amendments and refinements to the land speculation tax bill. This bill will be tabled immediately after this address by my colleague the Minister of Revenue (Mr. Meen).", "By introducing this land speculation tax I hope to deflate, or at least slow down, land price increases and thereby contain costs for housing and other development projects in Ontario.", "The success of this speculation tax will be inversely related to its revenue yield -- the smaller the revenues the greater the desired impact on curbing speculation. For this fiscal year the revenue yield from the speculation tax can be little more than a rough estimate, which I have set at $25 million in keeping with my optimism that the tax will indeed produce the anti-speculation result the government is seeking.", "Half of the revenue from this new tax will be shared with Ontario municipalities utilizing a method to be designated by the Provincial-Municipal Liaison Committee. Recent experience with the fiscal arrangements sub-committee of the PMLC has proven the value of this form of provincial-municipal co-operation. I will require that these additional local revenues be correlated with the municipalities’ success in providing new housing at reasonable cost for our people. The government of Ontario expresses its appreciation to the co-chairman and members of the PMLC for their co-operation in financial and legislative matters during the past year.", "In examining the problem of rapidly rising prices for real property in Ontario, it has become increasingly apparent that large-scale acquisition of land by non-residents of Canada is a significant factor. The matter of control of non-resident ownership of Canadian land is a current constitutional issue which has not been fully resolved. The problem has been studied, however, and has been reported on recently by Ontario’s Select Committee on Economic and Cultural Nationalism.", "The government of Ontario recognizes that positive action on this matter is required now in order to maximize Canadian ownership of our real estate. The government has decided therefore to take interim steps using the instruments at its disposal. Accordingly, I am proposing to increase substantially the land transfer tax on purchases of land by non-residents of Canada, to 20 per cent from 6/10 of one per cent, effective at midnight tonight.", "In proposing this measure, I wish to emphasize that we continue to welcome the flow into Ontario of mortgage and debt financing from abroad. I emphasize also that it is not our intention to penalize industries which seek to locate or expand in this province, although we would encourage these established companies to broaden Canadian equity participation.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "To ensure that industries which contribute substantially to the Ontario economy will not be penalized, I propose to establish a review procedure whereby the additional transfer tax may be rebated in certain instances. The Minister of Revenue will table the bill immediately after my budget statement.", "In order that the tax on non-residents does not curtail the operations of foreign companies which play an important role in developing our stock of housing and commercial realty, I propose to forgive the additional tax when vacant land bought by a non-resident is sold back to Canadians within five years in the form of housing or developed commercial premises.", "The increase in land transfer tax to 20 per cent on purchases by non-residents will complement and reinforce the land speculation tax. Speculative pressure on land prices will be relieved at both the purchase and sale points. I estimate that this increase in land transfer tax will yield an additional $60 million in 1974-1975.", "On Nov. 22, 1972, the Premier clearly enunciated Ontario’s policy to encourage public transit when he said:", "The province will shift emphasis from urban expressways to a variety of transportation facilities which will put the people first.", "Accordingly, the government has created new forms of financial assistance to translate this policy into action. They compare capital grants to cover 75 per cent of the costs of new buses, streetcars and subways. We also assist in the financing of the operating deficits of transit authorities. Under this policy, public transit facilities have expanded considerably, the extent and quality of service has been improved, and provincial operating subsidies have grown from $5 million in 1971-1972 to $18 million in 1973-1974.", "Rising costs of running transit services are now creating financing problems for municipalities. Without additional financing support from the province, transit fares would have to increase. To prevent fare increases, while at the same time limiting the resulting burden on local governments, I am proposing an important enrichment in our financial support towards public transit.", "The government of Ontario now proposes a plan which consists of removing the ceilings on the province’s present operating subsidies and substituting full sharing of the deficit burden with local authorities. This means that Ontario will increase its operating subsidies to $35 million in 1974-1975, which compares to $20 million if the old formula had been continued. This level of funding is based on the existing fare structures and the participating municipalities will be required to freeze all transit fares at their present levels. Examples for different municipalities are provided in the document.", "This initiative will produce two beneficial results. First, costs of getting to work and other destinations will not increase during this period of high inflation. Secondly, there will be an increased incentive to expand and improve public transit services in this province. The government of Ontario is grateful to municipal officials for their co-operation in the deliberations leading to this new provincial subsidy programme.", "These three initiatives to restrain inflation will be carefully monitored for their effects on the provincial economy and they will be adjusted, if necessary, to attain the desired objectives.", "Mr. Speaker, I should now like to introduce proposals to stimulate small Canadian businesses, and to encourage residential and non-residential construction by increasing grants for water and sewerage projects and by rationalizing government land development operations.", "Small businesses play an important role in our economy. It is a social and economic role which justifies special incentives to encourage new and existing small enterprises to develop and expand their operations, thus creating new and challenging jobs for Canadians. Two major problems encountered by small business are availability of venture equity capital and its high cost. I am therefore proposing a new programme which will help overcome these problems.", "The first part of this programme is an investment-related incentive designed to encourage the growth of active, Canadian-controlled private corporations which qualify for the federal small business deduction. These corporations will be entitled to an income tax credit equal to 5 per cent of the increase in their capital in Ontario, to a maximum of $3,000 annually. Relating the incentive to increased capitalization will ensure that the tax savings are used to finance corporate growth. Increases in plant, inventory and similar assets are reflected in the amount of paid-up capital and such increases thereby qualify for this investment credit. This change will be effective with fiscal years ending after April 9, 1974. I estimate the revenue cost of this incentive to be about $15 million in 1974-1975.", "The second part of my programme to assist small Canadian businesses is designed to motivate private sources of venture capital to provide funds to small enterprises The government of Ontario appreciates the co-operation of the Financial Executives Institute of Canada, the Ontario Chamber of Commerce, the Canadian Manufacturers Association, and the Investment Dealers Association of Canada in developing this programme.", "The new incentive which I am proposing provides for a tax flow-through for a new type of corporation, termed a “venture investment corporation” or VIC. This corporation will participate in the financing of small Canadian enterprises qualifying for the federal small business deduction. Corporations investing in a VIC would be allowed to deduct such investment from their taxable income and thus defer income taxes as long as the investment is kept in the VIC.", "The incentives recommended in this proposal affect only the Ontario corporate income tax. Ontario, however, has limited scope to ensure the full success of this proposal if the federal government does not participate.", "First, the low 12 per cent Ontario corporate income tax rate is not sufficiently large by itself to attract substantial investments in VICs since the resulting tax deferral would be relatively small.", "Secondly, investments by individuals in VICs, which constitute a major potential source of financing, would not be eligible for the tax incentive.", "I invite the federal government to participate by adopting this approach with respect to federal income taxes. I will initiate discussions with the federal Minister of Finance as soon as possible on ways of jointly implementing this proposal and I will bring forward enabling tax legislation during 1974.", "Having requested the federal government to parallel our proposal concerning venture investment corporations, I am pleased to announce that we in turn intend to parallel the federal tax treatment of mortgage investment corporations, MIC. This tax change permits the flow-through of funds to the investor without corporate tax, then treats payments received by the investor as interest rather than dividends. This will encourage the flow of funds into the residential mortgage market from small investors and supplement other efforts to increase the supply of housing.", "As an additional measure to assist small business, I am proposing a reduction in the paid-up capital tax on family farm corporations to a flat rate of $50 annually." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Has the Minister of Agriculture and Food (Mr. Stewart) got one of those?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "To qualify, the farm corporations must meet essentially the same conditions required for the forgiveness provided under the Succession Duty Act for bona fide family farms. This change means that family farm corporations will pay only the $50 minimum capital tax. I estimate the revenue cost of this measure to be $250,000 in this fiscal year.", "Mr. Speaker, at the request of members of the Legislature, I propose to introduce amendments to the Succession Duty Act, which will extend the definition of eligible assets for purposes of forgivable farm succession duties." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "That’s the amendment of the member for Huron-Bruce (Mr. Gaunt)." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "This is the amendment of the member for Victoria-Haliburton (Mr. R. G. Hodgson)." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. A. J. Roy (Ottawa East)", "text": [ "Give the member for Huron-Bruce credit." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "The Glen Hodgson amendment, I think we’ll call this.", "These changes will be retroactive to April 12, 1973, when the concept of forgivable farm duty was introduced. Changes will also be proposed with respect to the once-in-a-lifetime gift affecting farm families so that the gift may be made in several annual instalments.", "Let me reiterate the government’s policy on succession duties. We intend to continue to tax large accumulations of wealth, while at the same time ensuring that the tax does not bear on citizens of average means. Accordingly I should like to take further steps to ensure that inflation does not drive people of moderate means into this tax.", "I am proposing the following changes in the Succession Duty Act, effective with deaths occurring after midnight tonight: That the basic exemption of $100,000, below which an estate is not taxable, be increased to $150,000; that the exemption for surviving dependent children be raised from $2,000 to $3,000 for each year that the dependent is under 26 years of age; that the exemption for orphaned children, currently at $4,000 for each year that the dependent is under 26 years of age, be increased to $6,000; and that the exemption for invalid or infirm dependents be raised from $4,000 to a new and higher level of $6,000 for each year the individual is under 71 years of age.", "These changes will affect all estates and will cost $6 million in this fiscal year.", "To increase the supply of serviced lots, the government is proposing to make available to restructured municipalities a 15 per cent grant in respect of capital costs for regional water and sewage projects. All projects which are now under way, including the York Pickering trunk lines, will be completed by the province and the assets turned over to the restructured municipality at 15 per cent less than the cost to the province. The estimated cost of these changes is $11 million in 1974.", "To increase the supply of housing, the government, through the Ministry of Housing, will implement a number of new programmes, and expand existing programmes in order to ensure continued expansion in Ontario’s housing supply.", "In 1973 there were more than 110,000 housing starts in the province, a seven per cent increase over the 1972 level, the largest number of housing starts in our history." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "But not in the cities. Let them come in the cities where they are needed." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "How would the member know?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "That’s right. I will give him the figures." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Where? On Toronto Island?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "They are down by 30 per cent in London; the Treasurer should look at that. He knows the housing starts are down by seven per cent in Metro. The government is not answering the need where it is." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "How many on Toronto Island?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. A. Grossman (Provincial Secretary for Resources Development)", "text": [ "The member is against growth anyway." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "This year $19.8 million has been allocated to the new Ontario housing action programme which will increase the supply of serviced lots available for residential construction. In addition, funds available through the Ontario Mortgage Corp. will be increased in order to help families with moderate incomes to purchase homes.", "The government has also initiated a number of programmes to rehabilitate neighbourhoods and residences, including the Ontario home renewal programme and the federal-provincial neighbourhood improvement programme, which together with the community-sponsored housing programme has been allocated $17 million for the fiscal year.", "The Ontario Housing Corp.’s programme for rental accommodation for pensioners and low-income families, which currently provides more than 60,000 units, will expand significantly in 1974. More than 8,000 units are now under construction and are expected to be occupied within the year, and an additional 19,000 units are in various stages of development.", "In recent years the province has been increasingly active in the purchase of land to reach a number of social and economic objectives." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Is that all he has on housing?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "In future we expect there will be significant expansion of this activity with important financing implications. It is imperative, therefore, to lay the ground work for improved co-ordination of government land activities involving development and resale or lease of land for industrial or residential purposes.", "Accordingly, I intend to bring forward legislation this year to establish an Ontario land corporation which will be given the financing and co-ordinating responsibilities for the government’s land development operations." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "That was promised last year, too." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. S. Lewis (Scarborough West)", "text": [ "That won’t tax them greatly." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "The new Ontario land corporation will have the power to acquire, service and develop land in the province for resale or leasing on long-term basis. The corporation would not hold any lands in perpetuity. In addition to increasing the supply of housing, the corporation would also be involved in the establishment of industrial parks to nurture development in certain parts of the province. It would also purchase and lease back land and buildings to the Ministry of Government services in competition with the private sector. It would acquire the assets of projects such as the north Pickering community development project and possibly other new towns.", "The Ontario land corporation would enable the government to make better use of the special skills and entrepreneurial talents available in the private sector.", "I envisage the financing of the corporation to be similar to that of Ontario Hydro. Land acquisition will be financed by current revenues, by government loans and by own-account borrowing guaranteed by the province.", "I am inviting proposals from the investment community to form a new syndicate for the financing of this corporation, using imaginative debt instruments and introducing a new note of competition into the capital markets. By bringing together major land purchases of the government in this manner, it will be possible to plan for the development of regions in the province on a co-ordinated basis and to increase the impetus of development in eastern and northern Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. Sargent (Grey-Bruce)", "text": [ "When is the election?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "I take that as a really sincere compliment; thank you. It’s the cleverest thing I have ever heard the hon. member say.", "Mr. Speaker, I should like to describe proposals designed to secure for the public of Ontario a larger share of profits from mining and forestry industries.", "During the past two years a world-wide shortage of raw materials had developed on an unprecedented’ scale. Increased demand by major industrialized countries has resulted in sharply higher metals prices and substantial windfall gains for the mining industry in Ontario. With the prospective demand for minerals likely to sustain current price trends into the future, it is only fair that we secure for the people a higher return from our natural resources." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "The government has never thought that before." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "For legal and financial reasons I have decided to increase the mining profits tax rather than impose a new royalty on our resources." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "What is he talking about? It is just that the government can give less this way but give the appearance of more, that’s all." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "The same ripoff has been going on for decades." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "The mining profits tax has the advantage that it takes into account the expenses of extracting the ore and consequently it does not discourage the mining of low-grade ore; a royalty system, on the other hand, tends to encourage high-grading -- that is, the mining of only high-grade ore. I am proposing, therefore, to double the revenue yield of the mining tax." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "From nothing to nothing." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "This is to be achieved by replacing the present 15 per cent flat-rate tax with a graduated rate ranging from a zero rate on the first $100,000 of profits to a rate of 40 per cent on profits in excess of $40 million." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Who determines profits? Who determines them? Some tax!" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)", "text": [ "Not the member’s father anyway." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "This new initiative would secure a large share of windfall gains without imposing an unfair burden of taxation should metals prices and profits decline. The low initial rate of the graduated tax will be of assistance to the smaller mining companies whose operations often provide the only major source of employment in isolated northern communities.", "In addition to doubling the mining tax, I am proposing other measures to increase income tax revenues from the mining industry. These are:", "Abolition of the three-year exemption for new mines;", "Disallowance of the deduction of mining taxes and mining royalties for corporate income tax purposes; and", "Removal of the mine and mill allowance under the capital tax.", "At the same time, I am proposing changes which will increase incentives for exploration and development and processing in Ontario. These changes are:", "The depletion allowance will continue to apply automatically to all operators and non- operators --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Non-operators too, eh?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "-- the fast write-off provisions under the federal Income Tax Act will be paralleled by Ontario for new mines, major expansion of existing mines and associated processing facilities --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The Treasurer is quite unbelievable." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "-- full deduction of preproduction expenses will be allowed under the Mining Tax Act; and full deduction will be allowed under the Corporations Tax Act of exploration and development expenses incurred in Ontario by non-principal business corporations.", "The last provision means that a corporation not in the mining industry will be entitled to decrease taxable income for Ontario corporation income tax purposes by the amount of the expenses incurred in exploring for and developing mining properties, as has been the case in the past for mining companies only. The federal government will be asked to consider similar provisions affecting their corporate income tax." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "This is known as the corporate ripoff." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order please." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "In addition to the above tax incentives, the Ontario government is considering the expansion and modification of the mineral exploration assistance programme to cover the whole province. The government is also considering the establishment of a Crown corporation to undertake exploration activities in Ontario. The Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Bernier) will announce full details of these programmes later this year." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "He already has." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "In a full year, the net impact of these changes will be to increase provincial revenues from the mining industry by $50 million, from $75 million in 1973-1974 to $125 million in 1974-1975." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The government could hardly have done less." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "In addition to doubling the yield of the mining tax, I am also proposing to double the Crown dues which the province receives from the cutting of timber on Crown lands. These dues are the main form of revenue from Crown timber. It has been many years since they were last increased. Some increase in revenue will also result from a reduction in the large number of different rating groups for these dues. The combined addition to revenue is about $12 million in a full year. This will raise the present level of revenues from $12 million to $24 million in 1974-1975." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "It still won’t pay for services to the mining companies." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please. It is customary that the hon. Treasurer be granted the courtesy of delivering his budget without interruptions and interjections. I would ask the hon. members to please observe this condition." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "That is not so.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "This doubling of Crown dues is an interim measure, pending a complete review of this revenue field. The review will be conducted by a task force under the joint direction of the Minister of Natural Resources and myself. It is our intention to implement a system which will be more responsive to changes in forest company profits, revenues rising with increasing profits and declining with decreasing profits.", "Mr. Speaker, the extra $62 million which will be raised from the mining and forest industries represents a fair return to the people of Ontario from these natural resources." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "That’s shocking." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. A. Renwick (Riverdale)", "text": [ "That’s absolutely shocking." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "We are $300 million short." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "Go to the bush!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "One day." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "Let me now turn to the government’s measures to share provincial resources with local governments. In developing these measures, I have had the pleasure of extensive discussions with representatives of local government. Particularly, I had many useful meetings with the municipal liaison committee and its fiscal arrangements subcommittee. These discussions contributed greatly to the government’s revenue-sharing arrangements.", "In 1973, local governments were faced with a $140-million financing deficiency and the need to increase mill rates on average by eight per cent. Concerned about the prospect of eroding tax reform gains already made, the province increased its assistance dramatically to prevent increases in the property tax.", "In the 1973 budget, $180 million in new forms of local support was announced. The key element in this reform programme is the property tax stabilization plan. This plan is a balanced programme of different types of unconditional grants, involving a degree of equalization, an incentive to restrain and economize in spending, and recognition of special burdens and cost factors.", "In retrospect, this plan has proven to be successful and effective. I am very pleased with the degree of co-operation from local governments in passing on the benefits of these transfers to their taxpayers. Property taxes were in fact reduced during 1973 by more than five per cent on average from 1972 levels. As a result, 1973 became the first year the provincial transfers to local governments exceed the total revenue from property taxes.", "Mr. Speaker, I believe it will be of interest to the members and others to gain additional insight into the distribution of funds under this plan and the impact it has had on local spending and taxes. I am making available, therefore, in a separate document on the property tax stabilization programme a number of summary tables which display the distribution of the new grants, the local spending growth rates and the changes in property tax rates.", "It is interesting to note the success of the expenditure restraint introduced by the province in keeping municipal spending growth rates, on average, below historical standards in spite of the rate of inflation. This expenditure constraint, combined with new assistance, ensured a substantial benefit to local taxpayers in reduced property taxes.", "The grant reforms introduced last year were based on a comprehensive analysis of the financial outlook for local governments. In aggregate, the reforms more than covered the anticipated local deficit. For 1974 we re-examined the financial outlook of the local government sector which will again be significantly underfinanced. Local finance tends to deteriorate more rapidly the higher the rate of inflation in the economy because municipalities’ own revenues are not responsive to inflation.", "After allowing for maximum prudent borrowing, the local government sector is expected to incur a $182 million financing deficiency in 1974 in the absence of any new grant enrichments. To meet this deficiency, local mill rates would have to be raised, on average, by 10 per cent.", "The implications of these prospects are considered undesirable by the Ontario government. We propose a new revenue-sharing plan which has the merits of creating greater certainty about future assistance, of protecting tax reforms already achieved and of stabilizing property taxation in the total tax system. The broad outlines of the Ontario government commitment were announced by me at the national tri-level conference held in Edmonton in November 1973. The three parts of the Ontario government’s revenue-sharing commitment are the following:", "The province will increase its transfers to local governments and agencies at the rate of growth of total provincial revenue;", "The province will pass on to local governments the full benefit of any net gains in new unconditional tax sharing by the federal government; and", "The province will give municipalities access to funds generated by the Ontario Municipal Employees Retirement System to permit better use of credit capacity.", "I am pleased to announce in this budget $124 million in grant enrichments. This amount reduces the potential financing deficit to $58 million, or the equivalent of an average increase in property taxes of 3.2 per cent instead of 10 per cent. This deficiency would be further reduced by whatever new revenues are realized from the municipal half of the land speculation tax.", "Unusually large increases in provincial assistance such as the 1973 reforms cannot be repeated every year because they are quite obviously beyond the financial capacity of the Ontario government itself. It is our suggestion that the federal government play its part in further alleviating the pressures on property taxes. As shown in budget paper B, a modest improvement in federal tax sharing would meet the balance of anticipated local financing deficiencies and, through the province, further reduce municipal dependence on regressive property taxes.", "The province’s revenue growth rate of 11.7 per cent is applied to basic transfers of $2,049 million in 1973-1974. As a result the government will make basic transfers in the 1974-1975 fiscal year of $2,288 million, which is an increase of $239 million. This total increase includes $124 million for new provincial transfers, of which $3 million comes from the deconditionalization of nine existing transfer programmes. Land speculation tax revenues are not included in those amounts.", "The third commitment to local government announced at the national tri-level conference was the government’s intention to provide local government with access to some of the funds generated by the Ontario Municipal Employees’ Retirement System. As you know, Mr. Speaker, the government has since the inception of OMERS provided a special investment vehicle which has enabled the system to develop a sound actuarial base. As OMERS matures there is a general realization that this assistance can be phased out.", "Therefore, I propose that in 1975 up to 20 per cent of OMERS net receipts be made available to the system for wider investment opportunities, with the balance to be invested in special Ontario debentures. This percentage will be increased from year to year as investment experience is developed by the OMERS organization. This proposal is in accordance with the recommendations of the study group established by me to review OMERS’ investment policies. I expect that OMERS will take full advantage of the government’s flexible position with respect to the investment of these funds to achieve the primary objective of further improving the level of pension benefits to the system’s members in future years.", "I also propose that municipal employee and employee representation on the OMERS board be increased while the number of Ontario public servants on the board be reduced.", "In transferring the $124 million in new assistance to local governments we have taken account of several objectives and situations concerning local government. We have introduced five new regional governments; we have recognized the realities of urban transit problems; we have continued an equalizing role; and we have provided universal assistance to local government to meet the 1974 financial requirements in the face of slow- growing local revenues.", "We have designed a package of enriched unconditional assistance which meets these requirements. The main vehicle for the province’s larger transfers is the property tax stabilization plan comprising resource equalization grants, general and special support grants as well as per capita grants." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. E. Stokes (Thunder Bay)", "text": [ "What about the unorganized territories?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "The resource equalization grant was the most important component of the 1973 property tax stabilization plan. The government intends to increase this grant by a number of changes in the formula. These changes are summarized as follows:", "The standard of equalized assessment per capita will be raised to $10,100, reflecting the increased average per capita assessment in Ontario;", "The grant rate will be raised from 50 per cent to 60 per cent of the relative deficiency below this average;", "The base of the grant will be the 1973 net general dollar levy, which will be broadened to include grant entitlements under the 1973 Property Tax Stabilization Act; and", "The maximum rate of this grant will be raised from 20 to 25 per cent of the 1973 net general dollar levy as adjusted for last year’s grant entitlements with further adjustments for former recipients of mining revenue payments.", "The above enrichments of the resource equalization grant will transfer an additional $15 million to resource-deficient municipalities in the province, bringing the total funds committed by the province in 1974 for resource equalization to $71 million.", "In 1974-1975, the Ontario government will enrich significantly the general support grant. This grant is available to all municipalities and it is responsive to tax effort as well as to local economies in spending growth. The grant rate schedule has been revised to take into account the predicted rate of inflation without removing the incentive to restrain spending.", "Last year, the lowest grant rate of two per cent corresponded with a spending growth rate of 12 per cent or higher. This year, the lowest grant has been raised to three per cent and will correspond to a spending growth rate of 14 per cent or higher.", "The schedule increases the grant rate by one per cent for every percentage reduction in expenditure growth below 14 per cent so the maximum grant rate of nine per cent is earned when the spending growth is held to eight per cent or less. All upper and lower-tier municipalities in new regional municipalities will receive a flat grant rate of seven per cent of their 1974 net general dollar levy.", "The estimated increase in general support grants in 1974-1975 is $33 million, raising the total value of this grant to $82 million.", "The special 10 per cent support grant to northern Ontario municipalities has provided significant relief to local governments and tax-payers in the remote parts of the province where costs substantially exceed those in other parts of the province. The Ontario government has decided to increase the rate of this tax support grant from 10 to 12 per cent of the net general dollar levy. This higher rate will provide an increase in special assistance to northern communities of $4 million in 1974, from $9.9 million last year to $13.9 million in 1974-1975.", "The per capita grants for both regional and other municipalities will be simplified and increased. Regional governments will receive a 10 per cent increase plus an additional 20 cents per capita to assume responsibility for local planning. This amounts to an increase from $8 to $9 per capita, which is 12.5 per cent. The scale of payments for per capita grants for non-regional municipalities is increased by a similar percentage together with a reduction in the number of population ranges. Both types of per capita grants will be calculated on a two-year advance in the population base.", "The grants made towards the cost of policing will also be increased for 1974, and will be made on the same updated population base as the main per capita grant. The rate of grant will be increased from $3 to $5 per capita for non-regional or regional lower-tier municipalities providing policing services and from $5 to $7 per capita for regional municipalities with regional police services. The additional cost of these enrichments will amount to $17 million to a 1974-1975 total of $42 million.", "Having recognized special problems in the large areas, the Ontario government proposed to recognize unusual situations which have arisen in rural areas. In recent years, spending restraints of the province have increasingly resulted in municipal spending on roads without the benefit of financial assistance towards part of this activity. This has become a particular concern in those small municipalities which cannot realistically ease their road spending requirements by public transit solutions. To meet this pressing problem, the province will allocate a special $17 million to assist the smaller municipalities in rural areas in financing their needs for roads." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. C. MacDonald (York South)", "text": [ "It is good to see members opposite come to life." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Does that include Highway 10?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "This brings the province’s total road building and maintenance grants to $229 million in 1974-1975 from $199 million in 1973-1974.", "Lastly, we intend to improve the arrangements by which the province subsidizes public libraries and museums. A total of $16.5 million will be set aside for these purposes compared to total grants of $13.5 million last year.", "Mr. Speaker, I think it might be of assistance to the members if I summarized at this point the increases in provincial grants to local government. The province expects to increase its total direct transfers to local governments by $239 million -- $124 million in new grants and $115 million in increases to existing transfer programmes. The Ontario government is channelling most of the new resources into unconditional grants. These measures provide for substantial sharing of our limited resources with local governments.", "I am introducing a new list of grants in appendix B to be considered for deconditionalization in 1975. This list is based on recommendations from municipal officials and further progress is to be expected in the 1975 budget.", "Mr. Speaker, the government’s financial plan for 1974-1975 aims at:", "A neutral economic impact with spending growth of 14.2 per cent;", "A balance in tax increases and tax cuts;", "Stable net cash deficits as this term is defined; and", "A substantial reduction in the public debt resulting from cash receipts in excess of cash disbursements and from decreases in our liquid reserves.", "Budgetary expenditures are forecast to increase by 14.2 per cent in 1974-1975. This is a higher rate of increase than in 1973-1974 but it is below the average of the last five years in spite of inflation. This inflation has raised the costs of existing programmes and has also necessitated increased provincial transfers. Following the procedure adopted last year, the estimates are again being tabled separately by the Chairman of the Management Board on the basis of policy fields and the responsible ministers will provide a detailed description of expenditure plans when the estimates are debated.", "The province’s 14.2 per cent expenditure growth compares favourably with other provinces and the federal government. Once again, the increase in expenditure closely matches the rate of growth in the provincial economy. Consequently, during the past three years the government’s share of total output has not increased. In contrast, federal spending increased by 24 per cent in 1973-1974 and a further increase of about 18 per cent is expected in 1974-1975.", "I estimate that the tax changes proposed in this budget will have little net impact on revenues. In 1974-1975 I am forecasting budgetary revenues to grow at 12.1 per cent including the revenues from the land speculation tax.", "The net cash deficit, so-called, is estimated at $708 million in 1974-1975, which is lower than last year. The budgetary deficit will increase from $421 million in 1973-1974 to $625 million in 1974-1975, while the non-budgetary deficit will decrease from $300 million in 1973-1974 to $83 million in 1974-1975.", "The province’s net cash requirements will amount to about 1.3 per cent of gross provincial product in 1974-1975, the lowest in five years. Throughout the past decade net debt as a percentage of GPP has remained well below the nine per cent guideline recommended by the Ontario committee on taxation. In addition, it would now require less than six months’ revenue to pay off a net debt, compared with nine months’ revenue a decade ago. In other words, sir --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Anybody can do that." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "-- after a decade of financing rapid growth and expansion in essential public services and financial aid to municipalities the financial integrity of the province is as sound as ever." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Who said?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. E. Bullbrook (Sarnia)", "text": [ "It shows that inflation is up again." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, when I became Treasurer of Ontario some 15 months ago I set myself the objective of reducing outstanding public debt. I am pleased to report that I accomplished a reduction in the outstanding public debt of $225 million in 1973-1974.", "To assure the maintenance of the province’s high credit standing, our debt reduction programme will be accelerated. In 1974-1975 I am planning to retire $99 million of maturing public debt." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "This is a shell game." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "In addition, I intend to begin a special debt reduction programme with a potential target value this year of $350 million, thereby providing a total target for debt reduction of $449 million. This programme will be designed and conducted to minimize any disturbance of the market for our bonds." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "He is outdoing Whacky Bennett." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "It is Whacky Bennett’s budget." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "It will relieve pressure on Canadian capital markets and provide borrowing capacity for Ontario Hydro, private sector and local government financing." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "Well, it still can’t save the Tories." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "That last page was truly amazing." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have described a bold attack to meet the challenge of inflation. When the federal government joins Ontario with equally positive actions we can anticipate success in the battle against inflation." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Did Bob Stanfield write that?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "To recapitulate, this budget guarantees an annual income for those most in need; secures a fair return to the community from our natural resources; reduces the tax burden on the consumer; discourages speculation in land and real estate; encourages Canadian ownership of Ontario land and buildings; provides for a fairer distribution of the tax burden; shares provincial revenues generously with local governments; strengthens the province’s financial planning; and, sir, it introduces even greater equity in the progressive Province of Ontario.", "The measures proposed in the 1974 budget befit a strong and compassionate province. I am confident, sir, that with these initiatives Ontario will remain in the forefront among progressive and dynamic jurisdictions anywhere in the world.", "Thank you." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Well, in at least one respect it is better than last year." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Roy", "text": [ "Last year you weren’t --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "They are dumbfounded over there -- still breathing, but dumbfounded.", "Mr. Breithaupt moves the adjournment of the debate.", "Motion agreed to." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. W. Hodgson (York North)", "text": [ "Not much more to say, is there?" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Not much the member can say." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Well at least his friends in the gallery know why the member is over there.", "Hon. Mr. Meen moves the House revert to the introduction of bills.", "Motion agreed to." ] } ]	April 9, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-09/hansard
LAND SPECULATION TAX ACT	[ { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Every penny of profit up until today is just untouched by this bill. You know, 2½ years of speculation since the Premier was elected and it isn’t touched. They are laughing all the way to the bank." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "Why does the member for Ottawa Centre look so sad?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "The members opposite were smiling last year after the budget but were crawling around by the end of the week.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Introduction of bills, as soon as we have order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "The NDP leader is scraping the bottom of the barrel." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Well, one scrapes where one scrapes." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "And he’ll vote for this one, too." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. W. Martel (Sudbury East)", "text": [ "Will the Premier accept amendments?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "Try it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. A. K. Meen (Minister of Revenue)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, this bill will implement the budget proposals for a land speculation tax. It is a complex tax bill and as mentioned by the Treasurer in his budget statement, we envisage a series of amendments and refinements will be required as we gain experience with it." ] } ]	April 9, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-09/hansard
LAND TRANSFER TAX ACT	[ { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, this bill replaces the existing Land Transfer Tax Act and will implement the budget proposals for a 20 per cent tax on non-residents acquiring land. It also includes provisions required for the administration of this new tax." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "It will be passed on to the consumer." ] } ]	April 9, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-09/hansard
RETAIL SALES TAX ACT	[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Now, this isn’t bad. This has redeeming features to it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. G. A. Kerr (Solicitor General)", "text": [ "The member can start using soap now!" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "That isn’t bad either.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Meen", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, this bill contains the amendments to the Retail Sales Tax Act required to implement the budget proposals related to sales tax. It also contains several minor amendments not directly related to the budget, but which will be conveniently made at this time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "That’s all? Where is the bill on the mining revenues? Why do the mines get off and the people don’t?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, before I move the adjournment of the House, I would like to inform the members that on Thursday next we will deal with the last Act as introduced by the Minister of Revenue, An Act to amend the Retail Sales Tax Act. It will be printed and will be in the books ready for Thursday morning. Should we conclude that piece of business, we will deal with the estimates of the Ministry of Correctional Services to complete the day, and the House will adjourn at 6 o’clock on Thursday.", "Hon. Mr. Winkler moves the adjournment of the House.", "Motion agreed to.", "The House adjourned at 5:05 o’clock, p.m." ] } ]	April 9, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-09/hansard
POINT OF PERSONAL PRIVILEGE	[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon (Leader of the Opposition)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, on a point of personal privilege, I want to rise in my place at the first public opportunity to respond to the Premier’s statement on Saturday --" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "He’d better retract." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "-- that figures that I put forward were incorrect --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "-- and, in fact, one report said he called me a liar." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "A liar?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. M. Havrot (Timiskaming)", "text": [ "The Leader of the Opposition can hand it out, but he can’t take it.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Oh, what prattle!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I would like, Mr. Speaker, to put before the House the specific figures that are in question. The government of Ontario spent 80 per cent more on tourist promotion within Canada in 1971, an election year, than it did in 1972. --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I just have two sentences, Mr. Speaker. In fact, the Ministry of Industry and Tourism spent $311,865 for advertising in Canadian media, including newspapers, magazines, radio and television, during the calendar year 1971. During the calendar year 1972, advertising expenditures within Canada, by the Ministry of Industry and Tourism, dropped to $173,051. The 1971 expenditure was therefore 80.215 per cent higher than the 1972 expenditure, and this is what I stated on Friday. The Premier (Mr. Davis) is, as usual, misinformed and irresponsible in his statements." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. E. Bullbrook (Sarnia)", "text": [ "Not only that, he’s not here.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. J. White (Treasurer, Minister of Economics and Intergovernmental Affairs)", "text": [ "The member is corrupting himself and his party. Why didn’t he advise him?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Give him advice? It sounds like the Treasurer’s advice. He is talking through his hat --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order. Order please.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order please. The hon. Leader of the Opposition has raised two points, one of which has to do with the apparent mis-statement of figures. I did read certain figures and percentages in the morning paper. Of course, I have no way of determining which figures are right at this moment." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "In your heart you know." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I have been told I’m heartless sometimes. The other point by the hon. Leader of the Opposition has to do with the alleged words of the Premier of the province, in that he was a liar. I am not aware of that. I will certainly check into it and, in any event, in the absence of the Premier I think no response can be made and the Premier should be given the opportunity to respond before any such ruling should be made." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)", "text": [ "Powerless." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "Look who is talking." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "He waits until those members are out of town." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "There were only 13 days.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Statements by the ministry." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. S. Lewis (Scarborough West)", "text": [ "Well, for heaven’s sake, are these the right figures?" ] } ]	April 8, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-08/hansard
PETROCHEMICAL COMPLEX	[ { "speaker": "Hon. C. Bennett (Minister of Industry and Tourism)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to announce to the House a world-scale petrochemical complex commitment in Ontario. The four member companies involved in the Sarnia olefins and aromatics project, better known as SOAP, today jointly announced the formation of a new company, Petrosar Ltd.", "Partners in the new company are Polysar Ltd. with a 51 per cent interest which makes it a major holding for Canada; Dupont of Canada; Koch Canada Fuels Ltd.; and Union Carbide Canada Ltd., each with a 16 1/2 per cent interest.", "Petrosar has been authorized to proceed with the construction of the world-scale petrochemical plant once confirmation of the by-law to rezone the necessary land for industrial use has been received from the Ontario Municipal Board. The proposed location for the Petrosar facility is in the Moore township community of Corunna, just south of Sarnia. Petrosar will continue to work closely with the elected and appointed officials in the community to ensure maximum benefits to the industrial base and future plans of the area.", "In the announcement, Mr. Speaker, the president of Petrosar pointed out it will be a major step in Canadian achievement of petrochemical prominency. The proposed plant, along with the opportunities for petro-chemical production that currently exist in Alberta and the previously announced Quebec expansion in this field will help Canada become world competitive in these products.", "The petrochemical opportunities for Canada are bright. It is noteworthy that when Petrosar is working, the needs of the partners for raw materials will still require them to seek further supplies from other sources. The partners added that improved economic conditions contributed significantly to their decision to proceed with the project. They noted that the current corporate tax rates put Canada on a comparable footing with producers in other countries and that faster depreciation allowances help offset the risks associated with today’s rapidly escalating construction costs." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Cassidy (Ottawa Centre)", "text": [ "The Tories are in bed with the Liberals." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. J. R. Rhodes (Minister of Transportation and Communications)", "text": [ "Getting crowded over there." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "On these issues the Tories are there and we are not." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "F. C. Rush, president of Polysar, is chairman of the new company.", "The president and chief executive officer is Silas T. Smith, formerly senior vice-president of the chemical and plastics division of Union Carbide Corp. Mr. Smith has extensive background in the planning and start-up of world-scale petrochemical complexes.", "Mr. Speaker, this project is extremely significant in a Canadian and Ontario context. It will develop a Canadian self-sufficiency and reduce our current $250 million per year trade imbalance in these products. The refinery and downstream operations are expected to provide at least 1,800 new jobs with many of them of a highly advanced technological nature. It will establish a base for additional growth in the 1980s after coming onstream in early 1977.", "In addition, it will assist in developing for Ontario a balance in our energy requirements from domestic sources. And it will achieve a great deal in our efforts to obtain the optimum upgrading of Canadian resources. The overall investment, refinery and downstream, will exceed $1.25 billion.", "Mr. Speaker, this project would not have been possible without the thousands of man-hours put in by the staff of the Ministry of Industry and Tourism and the Ministry of Energy. I would like, at this time to recognize the energies of the Minister of Energy (Mr. McKeough) who has been most helpful in co-operating with my ministry and the principals involved in this project.", "If I may be permitted, I would like to point out one individual in the Ministry of Industry and Tourism, Mr. Frank Plumb, for the hours he spent in co-ordinating the efforts of this organization.", "The commitment of the member companies of Petrosar to this project is warmly welcomed in Ontario and we believe it will greatly benefit our citizens and our economy." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. A. Grossman (Provincial Secretary for Resources Development)", "text": [ "What’s the matter with the NDP?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. C. MacDonald (York South)", "text": [ "It sounds a little bit too fulsome." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)", "text": [ "We will wait until we see it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order. The hon. Minister of the Environment." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "We’ve known about it --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] } ]	April 8, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-08/hansard
PRIVATE SEWAGE SYSTEMS	[ { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman (Minister of the Environment)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, it is the intention of the government to proclaim part VII of the Environmental Protection Act on Monday, April 15, bringing into force regulations establishing uniform provincial standards for private sewage disposal systems and placing the responsibility for inspection and control with my ministry.", "As the hon. members are probably aware, there are widely differing standards being applied at present across the province by the local medical officers of health. With the proclamation of part VII, this condition will be rectified.", "Before going further, I would like to emphasize that these changes will have no effect on systems already installed and operating. This measure covers proposed installations of this type following the day of proclamation.", "Initially this new approval and inspection programme will be carried out in three ways. One, where possible staff of the Ministry of the Environment will perform this function. Secondly, in some cases, due to shortages of trained staff, the ministry will enter into agreements with local authorities to continue this programme on its behalf. This will be a temporary measure until the number of ministry inspectors is sufficient to perform this service. We see the maximum length of such agreements being three years.", "Thirdly, in areas where there are regional governments, we plan to enter into an agreement with the MOH to carry on this function until such time as the regional government can acquire the necessary people. It is our intention that these inspections and approvals would be handled by the regional governments concerned.", "In each of these cases where the approvals are delegated, it would be the uniform, province-wide standards set by the Ministry of the Environment that would be enforced by the local health units and the regional governments.", "Regardless of which of these three -- Environment Ontario, the MOH, or regional government -- administers this programme, the procedure would be as follows: A certificate of approval would be required before construction could begin on a new private sewage disposal system or any building to be served by such a system. After construction the system would be inspected to ensure it complied with the plans originally approved and a use permit issued.", "There would be a fee of $15 involved in processing this application for a certificate of approval. This would include the subsequent inspections and issuance of a use permit", "Also, under part VII and the accompanying regulations will be provision for the ministry to evaluate the suitability of land proposed for subdivision where this land would be served by private sewage systems. There would be a fee of $10 per lot for this assessment and evaluation.", "At present, both the Ministry of the Environment and the health units are responsible for various aspects of approval, maintenance and upgrading of private sewage disposal installations. As of April 15 these duties will be supervised by one agency, part of the consolidation of environmental protection services under one roof that began with the formation of the Ministry of the Environment two years ago. The health units have performed admirably in these inspections and approvals in the past and we will be drawing on their experience and expertise in the initial change-over period." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Statements by the ministry.", "Oral questions.", "The hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] } ]	April 8, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-08/hansard
ONTARIO NORTHLAND TRANSPORTATION COMMISSION	[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker, a question of the Minister of Transportation and Communications.", "Is he now prepared to dismiss the board of the Ontario Northland Transportation Commission and replace them with people who are able to set guidelines for an administration with that particular function that would be in the best interests of the taxpayers of the province, and particularly the people of that part of the province who have not been well served in the past years under the present administration?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "No, Mr. Speaker, I am not prepared to dismiss the board nor am I prepared to accept the criticism that has been levelled by the Leader of the Opposition which he bases almost entirely on newspaper reports that are not necessarily factual." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Because the minister has not made the reports public.", "A supplementary: Will the minister then explain to the House why the special audit that was required of the Ontario Northland Transportation Commission --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "Prove it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "-- by his predecessor was never made public, and if in fact the special auditors from the Ministry of Transportation and Communications were working with the audit carried out by the Provincial Auditor in this special review of the business of the Ontario Northland Railway and Star Transport?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the audit was an internal audit; the information was made available to the ministry for its consideration. I think all of the information has been communicated to the Provincial Auditor, and as I understand it the Provincial Auditor is prepared to appear before the public accounts committee tomorrow to make a statement." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Well, I would hope he would be.", "Supplementary: Can the minister then refute the statements made in the two articles by Mr. McAuliffe in the Globe and Mail and indicate that they are not based on facts, since he himself is the only one that we are aware of who has access to the special audits, the secret audits, that were carried out by the Provincial Auditor and by his own ministry? Nobody else has it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, first of all, these have not been secret audits as has been indicated both in the press and by the Leader of the Opposition. These audits are internal matters that have been dealt with as they have been in many other ministries and as will continue to be done. I would be quite prepared to answer the particular question as to the contents of the article. However, I don’t think the Leader of the Opposition would like me to take the necessary time --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Oh yes, we would." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "-- to deal with it point by point. If that is so, I’ll take the time right now." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Yes, do it right now.", "By way of supplementary, does the minister not think he owes it to the House, or at least to his colleagues sitting behind him, that he set out for the Legislature where the government disagrees with the copyrighted stories, and that indeed he should have done that before the orders of the day by way of ministerial statement?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "He shouldn’t waste our time. Make it a statement of privilege." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I would be quite happy to take the individual points and deal with them. I may not follow them in --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. We do want the information. Could it be possible, sir, that we could revert to statements and hear the minister’s views in this important matter?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Right. That’s what he should have done in the first place." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, if the Leader of the Opposition would like a complete and detailed statement, I have not had adequate time to prepare a complete and detailed statement as he has requested. I would be pleased to prepare that and present it in the form of a statement. If he wishes me to deal with them point by point, I have had an opportunity to make some contacts, to discuss some of these problems that have been brought forth in the Globe and Mail, and I will be happy to deal with them point by point at this time if he wishes as a question or a statement later." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The Speaker can apply the appropriate rule." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "It does seem to me that the oral question period is a period in which the hon. members may direct questions to the ministry. They should be questions of urgent current public importance, I believe. There is a provision in our standing orders that lengthy replies, of course, should be given as a ministerial statement, prior to the oral question period.", "This is precisely I believe what the hon. minister has undertaken to do. It seems to me that to answer the numerous items in the article would be a misuse of the question period, that it would be a repetition of the same topic and would occupy a great deal of the time in this question period." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Revert to statements." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "It seems to me that if the hon. minister is not ready to make a complete statement, he should be given the opportunity to do so tomorrow." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, before the other minister responds to your comments, I would like to point out that, while the Provincial Auditor is included in the estimates of the Treasury ministry, the fact is the Provincial Auditor is a servant of this Legislature and reports to this Legislature. The only vehicle he has for reporting to the Legislature is through the public accounts committee. Quite obviously, he cannot be questioned here. He cannot have an opportunity to refute the very serious allegations in the morning paper. My suggestion is, sir, that those allegations should be clarified in the public accounts committee meeting tomorrow --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "The allegations aren’t against the ministry." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "-- where he and his lieutenants will have an opportunity to meet the criticism, overt and covert, contained in that document." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, you are aware, I am sure, although the Treasurer may not be, that there was a special audit under the jurisdiction directly of the Ministry of Transportation and Communications, and it is the report of that audit we have asked for specifically here.", "Might I say, sir, in your own words, that you said the question period was to deal with matters of direct and immediate importance, which obviously this matter is, since it is the first time it has come to the attention of the general membership of the Legislature. For that reason, sir, I would like you to ask the House if we could revert to statements. That permission may be denied, although it is usually given from this side when the government asks for it. On the other hand --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "Not always." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "It is a cover-up again." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Government members will give it today or they will never give it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "-- if the minister is prepared to give specific answers, then we should hear them now." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "Well, sir, I think whatever questioning may take place here now should not attempt to clarify the responsibilities and the way in which those responsibilities have been fulfilled by the Provincial Auditor, who quite obviously must be given his opportunity to respond to these charges on his own, in that he is not responsible to this House through either the Minister of Transportation and Communications or through me. Therefore, whatever questioning takes place here should not impinge upon the Provincial Auditor’s opportunities to defend himself in the public accounts committee tomorrow." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, it is however the Minister of Transportation and Communications through whom the ONTC reports, and therefore he is the responsible minister. And one does not leave it yet another day if it can be avoided. You have often, Mr. Speaker, applied a rule that says that after four or five minutes of response to questions you deduct the time from the question period, and I think the minister should at least endeavour to clear up some of the matters now." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Well, adding to the comments that I had originally made, it seems to me that to take the report, which is rather a lengthy report, and to deal with it in the words of the hon. minister, item by item, would probably entail a great part of the time for oral questions.", "I have no objections to the hon. members directing a few questions to the minister, those of the greatest importance in their minds, as long as the matter does not develop into a full-scale debate.", "If the minister is agreed and he is prepared to answer some of these questions, I certainly have no objections to some questions being directed to him; but I should point out to the hon. members that I will be advised to cut it off when it does constitute a debate.", "The hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Well, in furtherance to your ruling, Mr. Speaker, perhaps the hon. minister could tell the House specifically where the reports were wrong. It did cover the report in the Globe; two columns did cover a wide-ranging survey of activities and serious charges of maladministration, and I would like to hear the minister’s defence of those areas where he believes the conclusions were incorrect." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "I am sorry; where the conclusions were believed to be incorrect?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Yes, Mr. Speaker, well I will not necessarily follow in the order in which they have appeared in the articles.", "Mr. Speaker, one of the items that was commented on was that a fee of $40,000 had been paid to a legal firm. The fee, in fact, was $3,541.69 and was paid to a firm known as Cheadle, Bryan and Mitchell from Thunder Bay. I believe Mr. David Cheadle is very well known to the Leader of the Opposition." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Does that mean he is a Liberal? I don’t know; I haven’t got my list here." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "It was Ontario Northland’s intent to purchase or subsidize this company in order to reduce freight rates -- that is the Lakehead freight rates -- but the fee was $30,541.69 and not the $40,000 as referred to in the article.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "Did the minister say $30,000?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "It was $3,541.69." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "The first time the minister said $3,500 and the second time $30,000. Which is it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "My apologies. It is $3,541.69." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "All right. That is one mistake. He is right.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "On the question of failure to pay sales tax to the Province of Ontario, there were interest charges of $7,291 that were levied against the ONR. That was the result of a challenge of the sales tax charges against various items. It was the opinion of the ONR that they should not have been paid. They challenged it and they were not successful and as a result they were required to pay the taxes and the interest charges.", "I point out that the same type of approach was done with the question of passenger fees, and they dealt with the federal government in that area.", "There was $8,000 referred to as being spent on plans for a new 100-unit complex to be staged over a four- to five-year period. That is correct; there was $8,000 spent. However, those plans are still in the possession of the Ontario Northland Railway. It is intended they will be used. They were paid for and they have them. The proposal was just too rich for them to go ahead and develop that.", "There was $35,000 spent, and that was on a renovation programme to the Moosonee Lodge -- and that was very, very much needed. It is a very old facility. I am sure some members have been there and will recognize that these renovations were needed. The renovations were carried out by a contractor here in Toronto. In fact no tenders were called, but I think many of you would appreciate, again, that to get firms to go into the Moosonee area is not an easy chore. This particular firm was already doing work in the area and the price was very, very reasonable.", "It was suggested that the Ontario Northland Railway was operating the ship Chief Commanda in an unseaworthy condition. In fact, there is a certificate of seaworthiness that has been issued by the federal Ministry of Transport. Therefore, to the best of our knowledge the ship meets the qualifications as far as the federal ministry is concerned." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "They don’t trust the federal government." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Never at any time was it stated that there would be $50,000 spent on the vessel to refurbish the ship for one year’s operation." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "They just don’t trust the federal government." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "We know that there is a new ship coming. If that new ship had not been coming, then there would have been a substantial outlay of funds, approximately in the area of $50,000, to keep the ship operating, but with the fact that a new one is coming that money was not to be spent. That was an estimate that had been brought forth if, in fact, they wanted to keep the ship operating in place of another.", "May I comment, Mr. Speaker, on the question of railway ties that had been donated to the North Bay Golf Club? Normally there is no sale value for used rail ties. In fact, in the years 1971 and 1972 there had been a request by the Ontario Northland for ties to be given to various organizations. These were not available, but through the good offices of the ONR contacts were made with other railroads which did in fact supply ties free of charge to various organizations in the area served by ONR which had made the request. In 1973 there was a limited market for 3,300 ties to a firm, I understand, in Whitby and they did purchase them at 75 cents per tie. One thousand ties were donated to the North Bay Golf Club. The remaining 1,700 ties were made available to other interested parties. For example, the Knights of Columbus, which wanted ties to help repair their docks at their boys’ camp.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "They were made available to the crippled children’s association and quite a number of other organizations in the North Bay area and in the area served by the Ontario Northland Railway. Now, if anyone objects to that, please stand up and say so. There were 1,000 ties to the North Bay club. It was suggested in the article that members of the executive of the Ontario Northland Railway belonged to the North Bay club. That is correct. Three of the senior executive of the ONR belong to the North Bay Golf Club. I would also point out that a great many members of that club are employees of the ONR and are members of the union and members of the labouring force. They belong to it and I am sure members would agree that if anything could be done to help that club, it would be helping those individuals as well.", "I would like to take a moment, Mr. Speaker, to comment on the insinuations as to the irregularities of the travel of the chairman. I am sure that, if necessary, he can reply more competently than I, but he did make a number of personal trips on Ontario Northland Railway business. It averaged about one and a half trips per month during the period of January, 1973, to March of 1974, between Thunder Bay, Toronto and North Bay, plus a Jan. 7 trip from Fort Lauderdale to Toronto. That was to attend a management board meeting called on Jan. 8.", "There were chartered trips: April 30 to Timmins for a commission meeting; May 29 to North Bay for a commission meeting; and Oct. 10 to Timmins for a meeting to deal with the relocation of the rail in that community. At no time has there been any question as to the regularity of these trips, and it is my understanding that at no time were they ever questioned either by the commission or by the audit that was done of the particular books." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)", "text": [ "It’s about time they were." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "They are being questioned now, I will tell you." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "One other point I would like to make too, Mr. Speaker, is that there was reference made to a fee of $9,000 being paid to the Automotive Transport Association as dues by Star Transfer. That is not correct. The fee paid is $1,300. That’s an annual fee of the firm to belong to that association.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please. Before the hon. Leader of the Opposition asks further supplementaries, I might say that this answer took precisely 6 1/2 minutes, which was a little longer than an ordinary reply. I will therefore add four minutes to the question period." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "A supplementary: Rather than use up the time, Mr. Speaker, under your former direction, in asking more specific matters that came out in the report, must we assume then that the things that the minister has not referred to directly are in fact at least parallel with the facts and that he is not prepared to say that the conclusions were wrong? For example, in the payments to the resort facilities owned by Mr. Kennedy, I believe, a member of the board." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, that is correct. There were payments made for the use of Pinewood Lodge. I believe the incident referred to in the press was a result of a meeting that was held in that lodge when the office facilities of the Ontario Northland Railway were under repair and there was no area for them to meet in. They then went to the Pinewood Lodge to hold their meeting there." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Just a supplementary: For the procedure on this matter, is it the minister’s understanding that he and the chairman of the ONR will be available for meetings of the public accounts committee, presumably along with the auditor, to clarify this matter and get the facts public? And secondly, is the minister prepared to table the audit reports that are under his jurisdiction so that all of the information will be available to the members of this House?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I will not make a commitment that I will table that audit report at this time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "Why not?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "I will not either necessarily make a commitment as to when I would be prepared to appear before the public accounts committee until such time as the Provincial Auditor has made his statement.", "May I take a moment, Mr. Speaker, to clear up one point for fear that it might be considered that I thought it was correct? It had been mentioned in the press reports that $100,000 had been paid to a grocer in Cochrane prices for groceries at over-the-counter. This is not correct; the fee is $59,000 -- the total amount is $59,000 -- and that price to the Ontario Northland is five per cent over the grocer’s invoice.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. A. Stewart (Minister of Agriculture and Food)", "text": [ "What’s right about it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "A supplementary if I could, Mr. Speaker. Now that all of the material has emerged and there are some conflicts -- presumably the Provincial Auditor will clear up his audit before the public accounts committee, why would the minister not make his internal audit public now since it is a contentious matter?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have not referred to the internal audit; I have referred only to material that I have been able to gather that touched on items that were discussed in these two articles that appeared in the press --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. Haggerty (Welland South)", "text": [ "It could be wrong then?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "-- one on Saturday and one again today. I would be quite happy to give that consideration after the Provincial Auditor has appeared before the public accounts committee." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker: Did I understand the minister earlier to state that all of the internal audit material had been turned over to the Provincial Auditor? And if that is the case then would it not be available to the public accounts committee through the Provincial Auditor?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I can’t reply to that. My information is that the internal audit material has been turned over to the Provincial Auditor for his consideration." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Leader of the Opposition has further questions?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "A supplementary, if you’ll permit: Have all of the auditor’s findings been turned over on a regular basis to the Ministry of Transportation and Communications? That is, was there a sharing of information both ways on this supposedly independent double audit?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I cannot accurately answer that; as you can appreciate I came into this matter early this morning and I have been working diligently to get information that I could have available for our members opposite at this time. There are some points I just haven’t been able to get into in detail." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Leader of the Op- position." ] } ]	April 8, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-08/hansard
DEEP WELL POLLUTION	[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I would like to ask the Minister of the Environment if a study of Innisfil township just south of Barrie has been recently made available to him, or made public, which indicates that there is a considerable amount -- in fact a frightening amount -- of deep well pollution rapidly growing in that area around Lake Simcoe, amounting to -- depending upon the community -- pollution of 65 to 80 per cent of the wells in that area which could become a serious public matter, particularly when the weather warms up in the holiday season when it gets into full swing this summer?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, through you to the Leader of the Opposition, I will look into this matter and report back to the member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Is the minister aware of such a report?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "No." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "He is not aware?" ] } ]	April 8, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-08/hansard
LAKESHORE PSYCHIATRIC HOSPITAL GRANTS	[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I would like to ask the Minister of Health if the reports that have been circulating that the grants to the Lakeshore Psychiatric Hospital, although they are only slightly reduced in the upcoming year, will, in fact, interfere with the expanding facilities that had been planned for that hospital, which cares for the mental illness in a very large segment of Ontario’s population?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. F. S. Miller (Minister of Health)", "text": [ "No, Mr. Speaker, I can’t specifically answer that question. I know the whole role of Lakeshore Psychiatric Hospital has been under review by the ministry over the past year. It is one of the two hospitals in the province that has an advisory board from the community to assist it in that review." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "A supplementary: Can the minister dispel any fears that have been stated by some people associated with the Lakeshore Hospital that the decision may have been made to phase it out and replace it with other facilities, or is that in fact the intention of the ministry?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "The decision to phase out Lakeshore Psychiatric Hospital as a psychiatric facility certainly has not been made. To say that there has not been some consideration of that possibility would not necessarily be correct." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scarborough West." ] } ]	April 8, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-08/hansard
ACTIVITY OF MULTI-MALLS NEAR TILLSONBURG	[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "I have a question of the Minister of Transportation and Communications, Mr. Speaker, on a rather different matter, if I may. Does the minister recall the Multi-Malls development outside Tillsonburg which is being fought assiduously by the provincial Treasurer? And is he aware that Multi-Malls requires approval by the Ministry of Transportation and Communications for road access before that shopping centre can proceed?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Yes, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "All right, a further supplementary: Why has the minister apparently given Multi-Malls -- which is, as you know, Mr. Speaker, a subsidiary of the CNA investors group -- approval in principle, although not yet in writing, for the shopping centre, when his colleague has, pretty bitterly and publicly, climbed aboard them for their efforts to set up a shopping centre directly in competition with the redevelopment plans designed for Tillsonburg?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, to the best of my knowledge I have not given any sort of approval, in principle or otherwise, to an entrance to this particular development." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Fine. By way of supplementary, since Multi-Malls must also have a building permit from the Ministry of Transportation and Communications under section 31(2)(d) of the Highway Improvement Act, can the minister indicate to the House now and to the people of the area, who would be immensely relieved, that he will join with his colleague, the Treasurer, in saying “no” to Multi-Malls in that area, thereby killing that particular project in its place?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Well, Mr. Speaker, as far as I’m concerned, if all of the requirements of any particular company, be it Multi-Malls or any other, can meet the necessary criteria to qualify for an entrance, I don’t believe the ministry has the right to deny them access if they legally are entitled to it.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "What are they clapping for?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "By way of supplementary, when the Treasurer --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Those boys are really quite mindless in their reactions." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "-- talks about Multi-Malls as a developer who thwarts the plans and intentions of town councils by building shopping centres just outside town boundaries; when he says, “I can think of far worse things to say about the developers who build shopping centres just outside the boundaries of urban municipalities”; when he says, “If our programme of persuasion does not bring about the necessary results, we will have to examine other measures,” etc., why would the minister approve the location of Multi-Malls outside Tillsonburg, directly contrary to the expressed opinion of the Treasurer, when it is entirely within the minister’s prerogative to say to them, “no”?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Well, Mr. Speaker, I would assume that if there are actions to be taken by other ministries of this government that would not permit the development to take place, then of course it would behove the Ministry of Transportation and Communications not to issue a permit for an access." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "He’s already taken those actions. He tried to stop it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "My only answer to the hon. gentleman is that we have not issued such a permit. We have not permitted access and, to the best of my knowledge, we have no intention to do so at this time. But I repeat, if there is no legal way that the ministry can deny access --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Yes, there is." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "If there is, Mr. Speaker, then I’m sure we’ll look at it in that light." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Maybe the minister should put it on the cabinet agenda and discuss it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Supplementary: Surely the minister is aware that his predecessor gave the same kind of access to precisely the same company just outside of Chatham, which is in the backyard of the former chief planner --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Ruston (Essex-Kent)", "text": [ "That’s right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "-- and presently major spokesman for the government in most areas? The same kind of access in the same county was given to Multi-Malls, the same company, just to the east of Woodstock, off Highway 2. And while it may have gone against what the Treasurer says he believes, certainly it didn’t go against --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Is this a question?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "-- the policy of the government." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Well, it may be, Mr. Speaker, that the Treasurer and I get along better." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "It may be that they should get along at all!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Discuss it in the cabinet." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scar- borough West." ] } ]	April 8, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-08/hansard
MINAKI LODGE	[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "A question of the Minister of Industry and Tourism.", "There was a report from the Canadian Press which indicated that once the Minaki Lodge facility becomes a successful operation, when the government has bailed it out and reinstituted it, that it is then the minister’s intention to sell it back to private enterprise. Is that correct?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have made that remark on behalf of cabinet that we are putting some heavy capital investments into Minaki. Once it’s successful, it would be our intention to make sure that it goes back into private enterprise Canadian ownership." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "He’s going to recycle it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "By way of supplementary, how much public money is being spent to bail out the ODC loan, then to pay off the other loans and to get the company back into operation? Why can’t we leave it as a Crown corporation instead of selling it off to private enterprise again, which failed us once?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "Because we’re not Socialists." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Oh, come on. It doesn’t take socialism to come to one’s senses!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "What right has the government to use taxpayers’ money to bail out the private sector?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Exactly." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "They’re just going to recycle it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "That’s not socialism; that’s just common sense." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "It’s a kind of Robin Hood theory -- only it’s robbing the people." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "The NDP would like to be Robin Hood!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. E. Stokes (Thunder Bay)", "text": [ "Supplementary: What assurance can the minister give the entrepreneurs in northern Ontario who have pretty well paddled their own canoes that they won’t be competing against an entrepreneur who has been almost totally subsidized by the taxpayers of this province?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Dean", "text": [ "Who does the minister have in mind, and when is he retiring?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, before the government decided to move in and take over the operation of Minaki Lodge we had a great number of talks with people in private operations in that part of the province, including the chambers of commerce, the elected officials, and people in the private resort business. It was obvious from our discussions with them that it was most important that Minaki be retained as a prime resort area in that part of northwestern Ontario, and that without it there would not be a catalyst that would help to draw the business into that part of the province." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Those private entrepreneurs weren’t prepared to do it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "If the member would listen. Obviously, with his --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "I am listening and I can hardly believe what I heard." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bennett", "text": [ "Sometimes we have trouble believing it when he is up, too.", "Mr. Speaker, we went over the situation with the private people and we were very concerned along with them that if Minaki was not retained it could have a very great detrimental effect on the balance of their industry. After long discussions with them and after reviewing it with various people, it was the decision of government that we should move in and retain Minaki and build it up, to be the catalyst to develop the tourist industry even further in northwestern Ontario, and we sincerely believe it will succeed in doing just that for that part of the province." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scar- borough West." ] } ]	April 8, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-08/hansard
ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT OF PUBLIC WORKS	[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "A question, Mr. Speaker, of the Minister of the Environment, if I may: Is the minister prepared to table the report of the inquiry officer under the hearing of necessity, the Expropriation Procedures Act, applied on Jan. 23 to, I think, five or six Crown properties in the area of the Arnprior dam project?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "That’s a very good question. At this point in time I can’t say whether there are legal ramifications or whether I can or cannot table the report, but I will look into it and let the member know tomorrow." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "May I ask a supplementary? Has the minister turned the inquiry officer’s reports over to the Attorney General (Mr. Welch) as yet?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "Not at this point in time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Is the minister aware that he is meant to give approval to further expropriations in the area, and if he is aware, has he in fact done so, as required under the Expropriations Act?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "I will give an answer to all of that tomorrow, okay?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scar- borough West." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "May I ask a supplementary, Mr. Speaker? In view of the intention of the Expropriation Procedures Act, does the minister not consider that it is at least undesirable that work on the dam now proceeding will flood land on which no expropriation orders have been taken out? What pressure has he put on Ontario Hydro to get them to bring down the expropriation orders on land which they now intend to flood?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "I think any pressure on Ontario Hydro should come from the Minister of Energy and I would discuss the matter with him." ] } ]	April 8, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-08/hansard
HOUSING PROGRAMMES	[ { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "A question of the Minister of Housing, Mr. Speaker: Is the minister aware that the cost per home on the average in Metro Toronto jumped last month to $50,340, the single biggest jump in a monthly period in some considerable time, and that that means it will now cost the average purchaser over the lifetime of the home something in the vicinity of $159,563 at current interest rates? Can he, therefore, indicate to the House whether there is a single specific policy, either by way of numbers of lots or planned homes over the next period of time, to do something about the accelerating prices?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. S. B. Handleman (Minister of Housing)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I will have to trust the hon. member’s mathematics because I haven’t had an opportunity to check them out. I am aware that the average price, not the cost, of single family homes in the Metropolitan Toronto area did increase by approximately the amount stated, which is also a reflection of the very heavy demand for homes. Apparently people seem to have the money to buy them and the builders are charging those prices." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Who are they? But some are speculators, using laundered money." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, we have announced from time to time a number of programmes. There is no one single programme which is going to solve the problem. I never pretended that there was." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Can the minister give us a specific?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "There are a number of programmes such as LIP, RAP, OHAP, HOME. All of these, Mr. Speaker, taken in the aggregate will have an effect on home prices. If the hon. member will just be patient, I believe in a matter of a week or two weeks or three weeks I will be able to actually specify a number of lots which are being accelerated, the amount of money that that means to the consumers of Ontario and the areas in which those lots will be located." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Supplementary, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Grey-Bruce was up first with a supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. Sargent (Grey-Bruce)", "text": [ "Wouldn’t the minister agree that a large portion of the high cost of housing is because it takes two years to get a plan through all the bureaucracy? Would the minister agree with that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Huston", "text": [ "Three years in most cases." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Does the minister know that in the United States the FHA programme guarantees complete project approval in 90 days? Why can’t he adapt a programme like that here in this province? Send a crash organization down there to find out what is going on and bring it up here and let’s do something." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, there is no question that some of the problems which have occurred in latter years are the result of demand by the public for a much stricter planning process, protection of the environment, road planning and all of the various infrastructure planning processes which must take place. It is quite obvious." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "They have all those things in the States too." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "I think we have gone quite a bit farther in accommodating the feeling of the people in that respect than most other jurisdictions. We recognize the counterproductive effect this has had on housing and we are doing everything possible to speed up the process. The hon. member for Kent (Mr. Spence) asked the other day about the number of official plans which have been brought before the ministry and which he felt were being unduly delayed. In fact, since Oct. 1, 1973, there have been 37 official plans brought before my ministry, and I’m pleased to announce that since that date there have been 40 new official plans approved.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "If any member has any specific --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The Treasurer could not. He cannot run a peanut stand without public money.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "If any member has any specific plan which he feels is being unduly delayed I would be pleased to look into it:" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I must point out to the hon. members --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I should point out to the hon. members that there are only 10 minutes remaining in the normal question period. No minister, as yet, has had the opportunity to give replies to previous questions. No members other than leaders have asked any questions. Does the hon. member for Scarborough West have further questions?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "A further supplementary here." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I’ll permit one more." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "To summarize this, Mr. Speaker, if I fly the minister down there, will he come down and have a look at it? Will he?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, it’s a policy in my ministry not to go on unauthorized trips." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Treasurer has the answer to a question asked previously." ] } ]	April 8, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-08/hansard
RESTRUCTURING OF RENFREW COUNTY	[ { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, on Friday, the hon. leader of the official opposition, not to be confused with the leader of the real opposition, raised a question about some concerns of the mayor of the town of Renfrew." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The Treasurer should just cut that out.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Did the hon. member for Scarborough West rise on a point of privilege?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Ruston", "text": [ "You fellows have been together for a long time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "The NDP always supports the government." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "Is that one of those 28-cent ties?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order please." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "I’ll tell the House, if the member for Brant (Mr. R. F. Nixon) doesn’t ruin the Liberal Party here nobody can." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Ruston", "text": [ "We didn’t know the Treasurer cared.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "Well, sir, I now have had an opportunity to read the letter from the mayor of Renfrew.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. R. Welch (Provincial Secretary for Justice and Attorney General)", "text": [ "I think the Treasurer has got them on the run; I think he’s got them on the run," ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "Although it must be said he has got a lot of helpers." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Welch", "text": [ "Yes, he’s not alone over there." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Is the Treasurer trying to take all the 10 minutes?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "I have now read the correspondence from the mayor of Renfrew. He has sent me three letters, two very recently. Some time ago I answered the first one, notwithstanding the allegations, and today I sent out responses to his two more recent letters.", "The mayor apparently believes that I’ve struck a committee to set terms of reference for a study. In fact, I have not. In late January the county and the city of Pembroke approached me and asked that I consider assisting them in a study. I agreed to, provided the county council, which includes representatives from all municipalities in the county except Pembroke, and the city council of Pembroke passed a resolution requesting a study. The county has since sent me such a resolution but I haven’t received one from the city.", "The understanding I had with the representatives with whom I met was that I would have a member of my staff meet with whichever members of their staff they nominated, once these two resolutions were received. The staff would then submit to the council a suggested study approach. At that time Renfrew county would follow whatever course it felt was appropriate in considering the study outline. If it chose to seek the opinion of each of the municipalities in the county, that would be its choice.", "The county system is the system of local government we have and I intend to respect it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "This is a speech, Mr. Speaker, and it is an abuse of the question period," ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "I will not interfere with the prerogative of the county council to make decisions on how to consult its member municipalities." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Minister of Housing has the answer to questions asked previously." ] } ]	April 8, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-08/hansard
HOUSING IN WINDSOR AREA	[ { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker, The hon. member for Windsor-Walkerville asked a question concerning senior citizen and family dwellings in the Windsor area. The corporation has just signed a contract for 300 senior citizen units on Riverside Dr. which will commence shortly. The design is being finalized for 130 more units which will be located on a Mill St site and a call for tenders will be issued in April, that is, this month. As well, negotiations are under way for the acquisition of additional senior citizen sites.", "In respect to the family housing requirements, OHC has satisfied all municipal resolutions to date. About 30 to 50 family units are vacated each month and the Windsor Housing Authority is satisfied that this turnover is sufficient to service the current waiting list.", "Mr. Speaker, while I am on my feet I would like to answer similar questions." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "If that was the completion of one answer, a supplementary will be permitted. The hon. member for Windsor-Walkerville." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "Yes. Is the minister aware that the request for senior citizen housing has kept increasing since approximately July of last year, and that at the rate that it continues to increase there is very little chance that the ministry will ever meet the continuing demand?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "These are great programmes by this government. More people are living long." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "It just seems that way." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am aware of the fact that the supply of senior citizen housing is running slightly behind demand, though not all that critically. As of February, there were 1,000 --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Stop trying to pretend there is no problem. There is a problem out there.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "The minister cannot snap his fingers and make it go away." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "We are not snapping our fingers, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "It seems that way." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "There are slightly under 1,000 applicants on the waiting list for senior citizen housing in Windsor." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "Under 1,000?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Under 1,000; yes, that’s the figure I have, slightly under 1,000." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "It is over 1,000." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "It has been our experience, Mr. Speaker, that the number of applicants do not always correspond to the supply. In other words, we will not build senior citizen housing equal to the number of applicants because in most cases we would have an oversupply." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Wentworth." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Isn’t the minister aware that the number of applicants is small, because the people know there is no point in applying because the ministry is not building a sufficient number of houses?", "Interjections by hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Isn’t he aware that there are five times as many people looking for them as there are applicants, because they know there is no point in applying?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Is the hon. minister going to reply to that statement?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "No reply." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "It’s true." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Windsor West was next." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. J. Bounsall (Windsor West)", "text": [ "On the question of family housing in the Windsor area that the minister mentioned, is he aware that there are over 300 applications for two bedroom accommodations, that there are very few units of two-bedroom accommodations in Windsor at the moment and that any amount of turnover will not meet the demand for that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the only thing I can say about family housing is that we’ve responded to every resolution of municipal council. I might suggest to the hon. member that he may wish to discuss this further with the acting chairman of the", "Windsor Housing Authority which submits requests to the ministry." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "The minister is incredible. He won’t last. He is a nice fellow, but he won’t last." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Does the hon. minister have further answers?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Port Arthur (Mr. Foulds) isn’t here. He asked about OHC." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Would the hon. members agree to having the answer given in the absence of the member?" ] }, { "speaker": "Some hon. members", "text": [ "No." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Then the hon. minister will withhold the answer. The hon. member for Waterloo North." ] } ]	April 8, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-08/hansard
ALLEGED SALE OF FARMLAND TO JAPANESE INTERESTS	[ { "speaker": "Mr. E. R. Good (Waterloo North)", "text": [ "Thank you Mr. Speaker. I have a question of the Minister of Agriculture and Food.", "Has the minister heard any reports concerning the alleged story that Japanese interests are trying to assemble 50,000 acres of agricultural land in southern Ontario between Toronto and Windsor? If he is not aware of it, would he make an effort to find out if that is correct?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "No, Mr. Speaker, I am not aware." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Good", "text": [ "Supplementary: Could we have the minister’s assurance that he will look into it, and if it is correct, would he be concerned about this and what could be done?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, does the hon. member expect me to contact every farmer in Ontario and ask if he has sold his farm recently to some agricultural representative from Japan? What a senseless question to ask in the first place! Of course, we are interested." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "The minister is in one of his venomous moods today." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Thunder Bay." ] } ]	April 8, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-08/hansard
ESTABLISHMENT OF COUNCILS IN UNORGANIZED MUNICIPALITIES	[ { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "I have a question of the Minister without Portfolio, responsible for municipal affairs.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please. The hon. member for Thunder Bay has the floor." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "Could the minister indicate when the promise contained in the Throne Speech with regard to the setting up of councils in unorganized communities might be introduced in the Legislature?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. D. R. Irvine (Minister without Port- folio)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, we are considering this matter very fully. I would expect to introduce legislation in the next few weeks. I would say before the end of this session, but I can’t give him a definite time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "Has the minister any advice for some of these unorganized municipalities which might set the wheels in motion to organizing themselves into councils so they can take advantage of this programme?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Irvine", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, we would be pleased to hear from them. If they have any ideas that they wish to relate to us, I would be happy to meet with them." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Wellington South was attempting to get the floor previously." ] } ]	April 8, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-08/hansard
GUELPH CORRECTIONAL CENTRE	[ { "speaker": "Mr. H. Worton (Wellington South)", "text": [ "A question of the Minister of Correctional Services: Have the recommendations of the group studying the working conditions at the Guelph Correctional Centre last year been implemented as yet?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. R. T. Potter (Minister of Correctional Services)", "text": [ "I haven’t heard about that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Worton", "text": [ "Doesn’t the minister know about it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "Well, I don’t know what study the member is talking about." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "That’s our man.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Worton", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, last year there were some goings-on at the centre that were investigated and the ministry set up a committee to study them; I want to know if they have been implemented." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Here we go again." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Déjà vu --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "I would assume so, Mr. Speaker. I was in Guelph at the correctional centre just last week, and there were no particular problems at that time --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Potter", "text": [ "-- and the superintendent of the institution took me around and showed me the changes that are being made. I would expect these are the ones that the hon. member is referring to. Certainly there have been many changes." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "The big problem is that once they are in, they still want to get out." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Wentworth." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Worton", "text": [ "Could we have a report on that?" ] } ]	April 8, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-08/hansard
AMBULANCE SERVICES	[ { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Health. Will the minister require those in his ministry responsible for provision of ambulance service to meet with the city of Burlington --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. G. A. Kerr (Solicitor General)", "text": [ "All that’s being done." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "-- the Halton-Peel county council, or regional council, and citizens who have expressed --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "-- a grave concern over the in- adequacy of the ambulance service? And will the minister --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. F. Foulds (Port Arthur)", "text": [ "Getting no action from the --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "Attend the meeting tomorrow at 1 o’clock." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "I wish the minister would be quiet. When I have a question for him, I’ll ask him. There is nothing to ask the minister; he doesn’t do anything." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "That’s just terrible." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Handleman", "text": [ "Does that upset the hon. member?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "And will the minister make known whether or not there is in fact a deficiency in the services currently available, recognizing there is only one ambulance in Burlington?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Well, Mr. Speaker, I think no matter what problems we may face with ambulances from time to time in the Province of Ontario, we should be very proud of the fact that we have the best ambulance system in North America. That’s a fact.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Did the minister rehearse that?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Well, there’s a machine up here and I just had to plug the right digit." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "The minister always makes the same answer: “The best in the western world.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Well, we can’t help it if we excel in everything." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "We can’t improve.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "The minister doesn’t have to apologize." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The question period has just about expired." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "So has the minister." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Well, he is helping me. I would be glad to look into the specific problem on the member’s behalf, because I want to have good ambulance service in any part of the province as important as Burlington.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Why didn’t the minister say that in the first place?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the minister will recall last week I asked him about the plan to tender for ambulance service across Ontario. He didn’t know anything about that. Well, now he is doing it in another area. What’s going on?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have to say the member is wrong unfortunately. We are not tendering for ambulance services anywhere in the Province of Ontario. We have not sent out letters of that nature. I think he should specifically look at that letter that is supposed to be a tender. If, in fact, I have been given the wrong information, bring it to me, because we are just not doing it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for York Centre." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Supplementary: What does the minister mean he’s been given the wrong information?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "I said the member has.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "How about a little order?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Why doesn’t the minister know what’s going on?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for York Centre." ] } ]	April 8, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-08/hansard
MTC RENTS FOR FARMLAND	[ { "speaker": "Mr. D. M. Deacon (York Centre)", "text": [ "A question of the Minister of Agriculture and Food. In view of the minister’s justified concern about the pressures that are driving farmers off the land in Ontario, will the minister request the Minister of Transportation and Communications to cancel the ministry’s programme of increasing rent by 30 to 50 per cent on lands owned by that ministry between Woodstock and Cobourg, as some farmers are unable to pay these increased rents and are going to move off the farms?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, it’s the first I’ve heard of this. I’ll be glad to discuss it with my hon. friend." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Atta boy." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Windsor West." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Way to go." ] } ]	April 8, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-08/hansard
THERAPY WORKSHOPS PAY RATES	[ { "speaker": "Mr. Bounsall", "text": [ "A question of the Minister of Health, Mr. Speaker. Is the going industrial rate paid by those industrial companies who are using the industrial therapy workshops to produce some of their materials in our psychiatric hospitals, or -- this is a question of the Minister of Health before he --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The Minister of Health, please. A question is being directed to him." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "He is getting the answer." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bounsall", "text": [ "Or is the 10 to 20 cents an hour paid by the psychiatric hospitals to the workers within those industrial workshops in fact a saving to the companies which are having work performed therein?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I was being sidetracked there for part of the time and I’m afraid I need to ask for the question to be repeated." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bounsall", "text": [ "Is the going industrial rate being paid by those companies which have work performed for them by the inmates of the industrial therapy workshops in our psychiatric hospitals?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. R. Smith (Hamilton Mountain)", "text": [ "In- mates? Patients. Patients." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bounsall", "text": [ "Or is the 10 to 20 cents an hour paid to those patients, in fact, a subsidy to those companies which are getting the work done?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Miller", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I would think in all fairness we could categorically say it is not a subsidy toward the industries. In fact, I think we owe a vote of thanks to companies that will, in some cases, spend more money to allow us to have programmes within the psychiatric hospitals that will help our patients. It’s very important that these people carry out duties of some type in the rehabilitation process.", "I’ve personally been involved, and when you realize the amount of material handling alone that’s involved in moving the goods to these patients so that they may perform the duties within the hospital grounds, you realize that we’re not doing it simply on the basis of the economics. It’s very critical in the rehabilitative process that such work be available. So its not a question of the minimum wage being got around by a devious means, its a question of giving these people a sense of accomplishment, treatment and some money all at once." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Question period has now been completed.", "Petitions.", "Presenting reports.", "Motions.", "Hon. Mr. Winkler moves that from tomorrow this House may resolve itself into committee of supply.", "Motion agreed to." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Introduction of bills." ] } ]	April 8, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-08/hansard
WELLINGTON COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION ACT	[]	April 8, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-08/hansard
CITY OF KITCHENER ACT	[]	April 8, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-08/hansard
CITY OF OTTAWA ACT	[]	April 8, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-08/hansard
SAVINGS AND INVESTMENT TRUSTS ACT	[ { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Would the hon. members agree to revert to the order, presentation of reports? One of the hon. ministers, the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations, has overlooked presenting reports. Would the hon. members agree to that?", "Motion agreed to." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. J. T. Clement (Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations)", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and the hon. members of the opposition for their courtesy.", "In compliance with the provisions of subsection 2 of section 20 of the Securities Act, I am tabling a copy of the Ontario Securities Commission order and summary of facts in connection with the Canada Development Corp. Thank you, Mr. Speaker and members of the House." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "For the minister, almost anything." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Pardon?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "For the minister, almost anything. For the others very little." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Orders of the day." ] } ]	April 8, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-08/hansard
POINT OF PRIVILEGE	[ { "speaker": "Mr. F. Drea (Scarborough Centre)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I rise to state a point of privilege. My point is that during the Throne Speech debate I was denied the opportunity to communicate with my constituents under my privilege of immunity because no one in the chamber except members is permitted to take notes, use recorders or use cine cameras. While the precedent of ignoring note-taking by the members of the press gallery was observed, this same ignoring was not extended to either recorders or cine cameras in the gallery. To communicate electronically with my constituents I would have had to waive my immunity. I submit that such a compulsory waiver is an infringement of my privilege as a member as defined in May’s, chapter 5, page 64, particularly the lines dealing with unimpeded services of members.", "In the outline of collective and individual privileges, page 65, chapter 5 of May’s, it is quite specific that freedom of speech belongs primarily to individual members. While historically, privilege belongs solely to Mr. Speaker, since 1554 the privileges of freedom of speech, freedom from arrest and freedom of access, have belonged to the members. I would also call attention to --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please. If the hon. member has a long résumé of some excerpts from May or other parliamentary authority I think he should first clearly state his point of privilege." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "The point of privilege I was raising, Mr. Speaker, is that, as the privilege of an individual member, had I been permitted to state my privilege last Friday, I would have asked that I be allowed the use of television cameras in the chamber while delivering my reply to the Speech from the Throne. I would like to state the remainder of it, sir." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "What is the member talking about?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "What am I talking about?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "We don’t understand. We would like to help him if he would tell us." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "That is a good point. Let’s find out." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, can I elaborate or would you prefer me to read this?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I am trying very desperately to follow the hon. member to determine if he has a point of privilege. If I recall correctly, on Friday the hon. member intimated that the Speaker had arbitrarily made a ruling which prevented him from exercising his privilege. I am waiting to hear what that privilege is." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, with due respect, sir, I stated it just a moment ago, perhaps somewhat ambiguously, but I will state it very clearly. It is my position, in raising the point of privilege, that I should be entitled as a member to have televised the portion of the debate on the Speech from the Throne in which I am speaking." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Who would watch it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please. The hon. member will please observe the rules of this House. There is no such privilege which has been extended to any hon. member in this House at any time. I do not say that it should not be or will not be, but the hon. member certainly does not have any right to raise this as a point of privilege. There is certainly no point of privilege that has been denied the hon. member.", "If he wishes this sort of procedure to take place, there are ways and means by which he might pursue that; but certainly there has been no ruling on the part of this Speaker, or any previous Speaker to my knowledge. It simply has not been permitted under the rules of the House and I do rule there is no point of privilege." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lewis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, if you were willing to have the speeches of the member for Scarborough Centre televised, we would pay for the cost, sir." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I would be glad to take that under consideration." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, if we can allow the media to televise the budget speech, why hasn’t this member got the same rights as the Treasurer." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Well, I don’t think it’s incumbent upon the Speaker to deal with this at all. I would explain to the hon. member that there have been arrangements made, and agreements indeed, amongst the parties that the budget will be televised. There never has been any arrangement otherwise for the hon. members. I think if the hon. member will deal with the matter through his party he would get a little bit more information. If he wishes I will be glad to speak to him privately on it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "Just a point --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I made a ruling on the hon. member’s alleged point of privilege. Now if the point of order has to do with my ruling, it is not in order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "No, it does not." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "All right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "I am not going to question your ruling, sir, I just want to raise the question that twice members have been allowed this privilege, sir. Maybe it’s a matter of semantics, but in my memory I have seen the Leader of the Opposition make the reply and I have seen the former leader of the NDP (Mr. MacDonald) make the reply on television." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "By unanimous consent; and we would consent to the member going on. Bring in a resolution and we will support it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Orders of the day." ] }, { "speaker": "Clerk of the House", "text": [ "The first order, resuming the adjourned debate on the amendment to the amendment to the motion for an address in reply to the speech of the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor at the opening of the session." ] } ]	April 8, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-08/hansard
THRONE SPEECH DEBATE	[ { "speaker": "Mrs. M. Campbell (St. George)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, may I first add my voice to all those who have spoken before me in expressing our pleasure that you have regained your health and are enabled to carry on your duties. I would hope that they would not be onerous, Mr. Speaker, but I am afraid that you can- not count on that.", "When I have considered the government programmes and proposals, I have varied in my feelings, first from being heartsick, to being tremendously angry; and Mr. Speaker anyone who knows me, including my caucus members, would recognize how difficult it is indeed to anger me.", "However, I realized later I had no right to be angry, and for these reasons: St. Paul was never one of my favourite saints, for obvious reasons, but for the first time I understood and recognized in this government the loss of that quality without which it is but a sounding brass and a tinkling cymbal, and if it were not for the effect upon the people of Ontario I would be filled only with pity for such a government.", "It is true they have finally discovered the north; and I am sure that the roads will be built, because after 30 years of Tory rule the north was ready to secede, and that was indeed an achievement. I trust, however, that they will not expect to set aside a holiday in honour of a great discoverer, since much of the programme consists of feasibility studies which, if I remember correctly, were also undertaken by the government under the late Premier Frost.", "The measure of a civilization is the way in which it treats its children. Let us look at this government’s record with that in mind.", "The Attorney General (Mr. Welch), in a daring statement, announced that this government would delete from all its legislation all reference to illegitimacy; and this, again daringly, without the necessity of a task force on the subject. Truly, it is moving into the 19th century.", "I had hoped that by now we would have had a statement of policy from this government with reference to the protection of awards for handicapped, poor children. Let me give you some examples, Mr. Speaker. We drew to the attention of the appropriate ministers the story of a little girl who, as a result of a motor vehicle accident, lost her leg. There was an award paid into court, in the amount of $2,000; and immediately this generous government, so concerned with the taxpayers of the province, began harassing that mother, advising that she would have to go to court on an application to have paid out $1,000 of that $2,000 or she would, with her family, be cut off welfare.", "In another case of a small boy, who suffered permanent lung damage in a similar case, this government harassed that mother and said: “You will apply to remove from that award of that child $4,000 of the $5,000 which was available to that child.”", "It is true that since drawing the government’s attention to those two cases from my own riding, together with a third case from the riding of Parry Sound, I received a letter from one of the mothers who said that she was most grateful for my intervention, that mothers’ allowance people are not going to take away the moneys. My worker said: “You should consider yourself lucky that they’re not.”", "This is what frightens me, Mr. Speaker. Are those three cases the only ones that are not going to be harassed? Or is there going to be a policy to state that we do not need to save tax dollars at the expense of poor handicapped children in this province?", "And I may say that since I have brought this matter to the attention of the taxpayers both in the cities and in the rural areas, the government really isn’t going to have to set up a task force on this one either, because the taxpayers believe that these children should be protected. If it’s only a matter of saving money, which is, perhaps all that concerns the government, perhaps if this money is left to the credit of these children, they will be enabled to have the kinds of things that can eventually help them to break the poverty cycle. I would urge, therefore, that somewhere along the line this government take some responsibility.", "Again, I was interested to note that the Minister of Community and Social Services (Mr. Brunelle) -- as a result, I would suggest, of the consistent prodding of the opposition -- has made a statement that policy now is going to be changed. Whereas, in the past. once a young physically handicapped person attained the age of 19 years, if that child could not live in the community and if the community did not have other facilities available, that child could have no other alternative than to be relegated to a home for the aged. Mr. Speaker, I will welcome the specifics of the minister’s proposal since he spoke only generally in answer to a question on the legislation pertaining to the mental retardation programmes.", "Again, there has been an announced policy that training schools shall be close to the homes. This, Mr. Speaker, raises a great many questions. Does this indicate that the Oakville Assessment Centre has failed? I would not think it had been in operation long enough for that to happen. Yet it was set up to assess the needs of the child. Does this indicate that the DARE programme has failed? We don’t seem to have heard too much about that lately. Incidentally, it would be interesting to know whether it ever did expand as a programme to include girls.", "What of the policy itself? It has that public relations-oriented ring. There is no question that for some it could be a very worthy policy but if a child lives in the heart of a large city and if the environment in that city around the home of that child is such that any return to the home or any close proximity to the home during this period could only continue the unfortunate activities which brought the child before the courts in the first place, perhaps it would be better if children in such a downtown area were able to find their way into care in the vicinity, for example, of the Kawarthas. There they could learn something of this magnificent province and of its beauty and something of what ought to be the heritage of all Canadian children. Living near home, in a training school near home, could be a disaster.", "Incidentally, I do hope the new Minister of Correctional Services (Mr. Potter) will make an announcement soon. Is there going to be any plan to remove training schools from his ministry into the Ministry of Community and Social Services? While there is a dearth of imaginative ideas in the latter ministry, it could be that with the $13 million then forthcoming from the federal government we might catch up on programmes to assist these young people.", "Nor is there any commitment, Mr. Speaker, to ensuring that children shall have an absolute right to be represented before the courts when their rights are involved. There is no statement that they shall no longer be parcelled out with the furniture, in such matters as divorce and custody, without adequate representation.", "When is this government going to recognize the fact that a child who is the victim of a criminal act, such as in contributing, may well need financial support? Why should such a child not have a right to apply to the fund as the victim of a criminal act, and why should the fund not be expanded to cover adequate assistance to such a child?", "When a child is placed on probation what happens in our courts? I have to express my appreciation to the efforts of the former Minister of Correctional Services (Mr. Apps) in that he did try to bring some equity to bear in the probation services. Mr. Speaker, when you have children before the courts, you should indeed ensure that those who are trained probation officers are persons who understand the culture and the language of both the child and the parents. I can recall very well a case when a young Portuguese boy was in serious trouble. Because I was new in the courts, in my order of probation I directed that he have a Portuguese probation officer. Subsequently, the child was brought back before the courts and the probation officer said: “Your honour, I think I have been chosen because I once flew over Portugal.”", "A probation officer is a very important person in the family court. He or she is not just an official to whom a child reports but a person who helps to bridge a gap between the child and the family, and once the child is in trouble before the courts there is usually that kind of a gap. If that officer can’t speak the language of the parents, then he or she becomes relatively ineffective in that important area.", "Lastly, it is important that our children have an education. We have seen the way in which education in this province has deteriorated, causing parents great concern. I am certain that the public school system as it is today is doomed unless steps are taken to reassure those parents who are removing their children from the public schools and placing them in separate, private schools or in a tutorial system. This, Mr. Speaker, is the result of the chaos into which this government has placed the whole subject of education. Let us also level with our students and ensure that we do not completely alienate them by providing extensive and costly training without trying to ensure that jobs will be available on graduation or that they know the situation before they start.", "Then we come to those glib phrases dealing with the status of women. It would appear that what has happened is that this government again is tying up this matter in a complex property law reform situation or a tortuous reform of family court.", "Let us look at what has been done to date. This government set up the Women’s Bureau with limited funds and it disappeared. Then the council was set up under the able chairmanship of Laura Sabia, but to date with inadequate funding. Now we have set up another group dealing with Crown employees. Mr. Speaker, I do hope there will be enough money there to purchase enough Meccano sets so that these women may achieve a promotion.", "On this subject, I would like to say that wherever I have gone I have advised people that the Treasurer (Mr. White) of this province has stated that playing with Meccano sets appears to be the criterion for getting ahead in this government. Therefore, I have suggested that parents ensure that all of their children, both male and female, become accomplished in this activity.", "I am so afraid, Mr. Speaker, that Mr. Moog may now require further challenges and that a public relations team would sell the Premier on the idea of the Taj Mahal to indicate his dedication, not to one woman but to the cause of women. But please remember, the Taj Mahal is nonetheless a tomb.", "What is lacking is any statement of this government on this subject. What does it have to reply to what has been said by Dr. Pearson, who is I believe the dean of science at the University of Waterloo? He states that he has never, as he was accused of doing, said that he would ensure that no married woman professor would be given tenure in his faculty, and in fairness to him that should be stated. He goes on to say: “If a woman’s other commitments in life tend to make this system work to her disadvantage, then I think we should recognize this forthwith.”", "Of course it does work to her disadvantage; but I thought, and most people thought, that there was indicated in the law a statement that marital status should not be considered in hiring under the Human Rights Code. Apparently, we don’t believe it.", "If this government really is concerned about the matter of the status of women it can take the first step forward and advise the colleges and universities that it is not prepared to continue funding these institutions when they are, in themselves, guilty of discrimination against women, both in their hiring or in granting tenures and in the salaries which range in various colleges, as I have it, from between $1,800 to $4,000 a year less than for men in equivalent positions.", "And what about the often-given promises that this government would indeed look into the whole matter of pensions over which it has control?", "Then we come to the total welfare field and the commitment of this government. The Ontario Economic Council Report No. 3, “The Evolution of Policy in Contemporary Ontario,” at page 49 states:", "“Provincial gross expenditure in the area of welfare was far behind. But that makes the fact the direct federal expenditure in various income transfers to Ontario residents was nearly $1.3 billion in 1971, an amount which at that time exceeded gross Ontario government expenditures either on health or on primary and secondary education.”", "And the welfare maintenance for social services has gone from 0.3 in 1946 to 0.9 in 1971.", "This government has consistently and systematically attacked groups in our community to mask the inadequacies of its own programmes and used tax dollars to advertise its position. Nowhere has this been more true than in the fields of welfare and health, although teachers have seen some of this thrust.", "We have heard the new Provincial Secretary for Social Development (Mrs. Birch) speak of LIP grants and, unlike the member for Sudbury East (Mr. Martel) I would admit that I believe there were some LIP grants that I would not have funded, some LIP grants that may not have been significant. Because if we do anything, we are bound to do something wrong occasionally; it is only when we do nothing that we usually don’t make too many mistakes.", "Frankly, I was bitterly disappointed that the new provincial secretary should have made such insipid statements, particularly, I suppose, since I had hoped that as a woman she might have made some more significant contribution in the field of social reform. What does she say? She says:", "“From the first we have said clearly that the government of Ontario was willing to provide support and assistance to LIP-initiated projects within our existing programmes and priorities.”", "Of course, that is the rub. Because these programmes were providing some service to that sieve-like quality of maintenance in the welfare field, and of course filling gaps that are not covered by existing programmes.", "She says too:", "“That in order to reassure you that this is a matter of major concern to us” [that is, the multi-service approach], “we are appointing a committee to study the potential of the multi-service centre.”", "Why doesn’t she just read the reports oi those very substantial people who have been concerned in this field under the LIP grant legislation? Why another committee? Well, if it is for the good of people, it is a good time to stall or to get task forces or to do something.", "Then on page two of her statement she says:", "“In the matter of community immigration services and information centres, both these areas are already marked, particularly in Metropolitan Toronto, by a large degree of duplication of service.”", "There are at least two reports outstanding which clearly indicate that is not true.", "Then we come to the statement of the work group, which while it is a Metro work group does in fact speak with the same sense of feeling that all of these people across the province feel --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon (Leader of the Opposition)", "text": [ "That’s right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mrs. Campbell", "text": [ "-- in dealing with this particular programme and policy.", "This is what these people say. These are young people and one can make a great deal of impact on the public by what this minister did in trying to decry them, trying to denigrate them and trying to say that these young people were rather shiftless people who made a habit of trying to work their way into this kind of a job. One has to bear in mind that in this particular group one has the support of the conventional agencies, the social planning councils, the United Way and labour. All of these people have now realized from what they have seen that they are filling a very great gap in services.", "Young people who are making or taking home $85 a week, I believe, without any kind of benefits -- highly trained and highly skilled and highly dedicated -- make this reply: “We are deeply disappointed at the inadequacy of Ontario policy in many areas, which not only affects emerging services but the entire community social service field.”", "There is no policy or special funding for information centres after three years of study; no policy or special funding for immigrant services. I suppose we should exempt the welcome wagon that the government has taken on. There is no special funding of community managed multiservice centres. This area is to be studied further, as the minister has explained.", "There is limited financing of Bill 160 for daycare co-ops but regulations are still not available after being promised 10 months ago. There is limited special assistance for community senior citizens’ services -- when one thinks of the spending we are talking about in this House, $150,000 for the whole of Ontario! There is no significant provision for increases in funding of elderly persons’ centres nor in reviewing obstacles in the current EPC funding. There are no increased uses of the Canada Assistance Plan by Ontario to acquire more federal dollars for preventive services in the community.", "So they go. Finally, in refusing to change its pattern of neglect the province places the full funding burden on the more limited revenue bases of municipalities and the voluntary sector. Both these sectors are currently stretched to their financial limits in support of community social services. If this crisis is not met head-on by the province, many emerging services will die and established services will be forced to curtail their work drastically. One of the interesting things is that under this work group there have been programmes of assistance to older people and handicapped people. Because of this kind of a programme these people have been able to continue to live in their own homes, and this is what they want to do as long as they can.", "Again, I would think that if you are only trying to save money in this area it’s worth thinking about because you probably won’t pay as much money to keep this kind of a programme going as you will pay to take these reluctant people and place them in nursing homes.", "Why can we not learn from countries other than the United States? Sweden has looked into this principle and it has seen that you should have a multiplicity of services. But I am beginning to see that this government, by its niggardly approach, is very anxious to show people, you see, we give this money and it doesn’t change anything, we still have these people on welfare. Well, let me say that in my opinion, from what I have seen in Metropolitan Toronto, this can change if there is a sincere desire to assist people to get off welfare.", "I will not support what the member for Sudbury East had to say about the support for ballet, symphony, the opera and so forth. Indeed, I would institute programmes to allow the poor to be a part of the symphony, the ballet and the opera.", "I can recall some years ago when, with the wonderful support of Mr. Russell, with whom -- as the director of, I believe, ballet and opera, I’m not sure about that -- we worked out an arrangement where tickets from O’Keefe Centre were available to the people in Cabbagetown. I recall my concern on one occasion, Mr. Speaker, when Mr. Russell phoned and said: “We’ve got a group of children coming down to the ballet and, Margaret, they are almost all boys.” I was a little frightened about what might happen. However, they went and I learned and Wally", "Russell learned and a lot of other people learned these children were eager for this kind of an experience.", "However, there is never enough room and there are never enough tickets available. But surely if we can support these major arts programmes we could find a little money available for Smile, the Inner City Angels and those groups who spend their time trying to give something to the poor and the handicapped in this province.", "Surely it is still as true as it ever was that man does not live by bread alone, and that it is important that the spirit be enriched at the same time as we look at the physical and housing needs of the poor.", "Incidentally, there is an organization which has come to my attention which is called PARD. I do hope there will be an eagerness in this government to support it. It is a unique organization in the whole North American continent. A group of people interested in riding, of all things, have set up a riding programme and they take our handicapped people -- the blind, the spinabifidas, and others -- out to ride. They have doctors and paramedicals there, to ensure their safety. But think of what it must do to somebody to have a sense of freedom of mobility just at least once in awhile.", "I would like to refer to a couple of items in Health. As you know, Mr. Speaker, I have consistently spoken of the home-care programme as a do-it-yourself medical treatment plan and I shall continue to do so until I see something done about it.", "During his estimates, the former Minister of Health (Mr. Potter) referred to his meals-on-wheels programme. Frankly, I thought this was something new, but it wasn’t. Most people in Ontario, and I guess we are lucky to this extent, have learned to eat daily. They don’t budget it out. They try to eat once a day. It may not seem necessary to the government, but that is the habit the people afford.", "I think of a woman in her eighties who had broken both hips, but she was no longer forced to be bedridden; she had a Victorian Order nurse and she had a physiotherapist, and then she had meals on wheels. It happened that I saw her last July. She said: “You know, I am a little concerned about one thing. During the winter I get one meal a day four days in the week, and because that meal is a pretty substantial meal I can make it spread to two. But now they tell me that during the summer they are going to cut the meals to one to two days and I am not quite sure how I am going to manage.”", "What kind of provision is made in a city this size for special diets? I was up in Orillia recently and I understand that there the hospitals run this programme and they do provide, in this type of dietary concern, for individual idiosyncrasies. But that isn’t being done here.", "While I am speaking about the programme I do want to express my deep appreciation for those who give of their time and talent to make the programme work to the extent that it does work. Without them I don’t know what would happen to these people.", "The other matter which I wish to speak to briefly is the matter of the nursing home care. We have heard today a question and an answer involving the possible closing down of a psychiatric facility. Granted it was stated it had been considered and no decision had been made, but we do know that people are being removed from active treatment hospitals.", "Why does this government not look at the situation which exists, for example in Alberta? There is recognition given there of the phasing of need in nursing care. They recognize the fact that people should be able to stay in their homes. That is covered. Then they recognize a 1.5 programme where most of the patients are ambulatory and largely independent but who require some assistance. They look at the situation of the nursing home care between the 1.5 and the 2.5 where obviously more assistance is needed.", "Why have we not looked into the standard of care in nursing homes? We have heard criticism about it, but why haven’t we done anything about it? Could it be that this government has basically set them up at 2.5, and then without provision of alternatives expects them to provide, at additional cost to them but not to the government, care of those who require up to 4.6 or five hours of nursing care per day?", "Is it a fact that this government is removing patients from hospitals, including psychiatric hospitals, to nursing homes, nursing homes ill prepared or equipped to receive them, to save money in the cost of the delivery of health services? These questions surely must be answered since many of the nursing homes are taking the position they have patients who require up to five hours care and they cannot get beds for them in the facilities which have to be available for that purpose.", "Lastly, I would like to look for a few moments in time to the matter of housing. I have said that this government has systematically attacked groups to mask its own inadequacy. In this particular case, I wonder with horror whether this government is taking on all of the people of Ontario to serve its ends in a federal election.", "The Premier (Mr. Davis) has stated that this government can do nothing to curb inflation and that only the election of Mr. Stanfield can achieve this. I believe that this government can do nothing because it does not choose to do anything. Is it perhaps actively promoting inflation? Let the record show.", "This government purchased lands in Malvern some years ago, one property at $800 an acre and another at something over $1,000 an acre. The cost of servicing was $25,000, according to any figures I can get.", "Incidentally, on that question, I would like an answer as to why our costs are the highest in the whole of Canada. Even in Halifax, where they are blasting rock, they don’t have the figures that we have in this cost.", "However, I am informed that at the present time this government is now engaged in selling those lots at current prices. If this is so, would the government explain why this is not adding to the problem of inflation?", "According to figures which have been given to Metropolitan Toronto, it is indicated that for all classes in 1971, 16.6 per cent had a family income of over $15,000 and under $25,000; 3.4 per cent had over $25,000. So, a total of 20 per cent of the population had an income of over $15,000 per annum. In Metro, 22.8 per cent were over $15,000, but we see that 63.2 per cent of families have an income under $12,000.", "How have these figures affected the housing costs across the province -- that is the figures which I have given about the government’s dealing in land -- as it relates to the incomes of people in this province and their ability to purchase, or indeed to rent housing?", "When answering a question of my leader (Mr. R. F. Nixon) the other day concerning the 3,000-acre purchase in the Kitchener-Waterloo area and the servicing thereof, the minister stated that that question should be addressed to the municipality, although he admitted that the purchase had been made without the knowledge of the municipality or their co-operation in future planning. So there is nothing new at all so far in the policy for servicing lots, notwithstanding the statements that are repeatedly made that in the fullness of time there will be such a statement coming forth.", "The same minister is reported earlier to have said that developers would not be allowed to let farmland fall out of production, thus increasing the cost of food. Well why not, when the government consistently follows this policy? How much more farmland must be taken off the market before the people realize that this has inflated food prices and that it has been a deliberate policy?", "During the Sixties we saw developers un- conscionably block-busting neighbourhoods in our cities to satisfy their own hunger and thirst for profit. This was a frightful practice. How much more so when that block-busting technique in the rural areas destroys the food production; and how much worse is it when these tactics are employed by the government itself?", "Together with this, what is the land policy of this government? Last year, a property in Metropolitan Toronto was purchased for $300,000 and sold two weeks ago to a foreign investor for $1.3 million -- a cruel $1-million profit on land which our people can’t afford to buy for homes to live in." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Gaunt (Huron-Bruce)", "text": [ "Shame." ] }, { "speaker": "Mrs. Campbell", "text": [ "Surely there is no other country in the world which allows substantial portions of its land to go completely into foreign control. When are we going to face up to what is happening under our government policies in this area?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gaunt", "text": [ "It’s going to be left to the Liberals to do it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mrs. Campbell", "text": [ "And that’s going to be the problem; by that time it may be irreversible they’ve had so much going on it" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)", "text": [ "It’ll be a busy time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. Riddell (Huron)", "text": [ "Nothing’s too big for the Liberals this afternoon. We’ll tackle it" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. G. A. Kerr (Solicitor General)", "text": [ "The hon. member doesn’t believe that, does he?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mrs. Campbell", "text": [ "In a report called “The Rent Race,” which was presented to Metropolitan Toronto and commissioned by the Social Planning Council -- and I’m sure some hon. members have at least seen it -- they say, on page 1:", "“Tens of thousands of families living in Metropolitan Toronto today are caught up in what might well be termed ‘the rent race.’ Most of these people have middle incomes that at one time might have afforded a clearly adequate style of living but that are precariously low in a time of rampant inflation. Still others have low incomes that allow little or no room for increased allocation to housing. Both groups are hard-pressed by the realities of the housing market. Most know that they will never be able to afford the security of owning their own home.”", "And it goes on to paint a very dismal picture of the situation here. On page 3:", "“Most of the losers in the rent race are beaten before they start because of low retirement incomes, low wages, uneven employment, disability and other reasons.”", "As you must be aware, Mr. Speaker, if anyone reads the Toronto newspapers -- and I think there are a few here who do -- Metropolitan Toronto council was so concerned about this report that it set aside an additional $2 million to assist those who were on municipal welfare, because the report makes it abundantly clear that these people haven’t a hope.", "But, as you read the report, Mr. Speaker, just add in all those groups right up to middle income, because this report talks about people doubling up. Well let me tell you, sir, they’re doubling up like mad because they can’t afford apartment accommodation.", "And we have some people who come out in the press and say those who wanted to stop apartments are the ones responsible for the housing shortage. I say this is just balderdash. You don’t have to destroy everything to provide housing. But unfortunately. again this government, awaiting the initiatives of the federal government, came into a NIP, RAP, and whatever other initial programme, certainly at a time when in this area, as I see it, it is already too late.", "When you look at those pockets of blight we used to talk about, such as Trefann Court and the cost of housing there today, you have to know there is no room for the poor in areas where they used to find some shelter.", "In the population figures of this report it states:", "“This study focuses on social assistance families receiving major or supplementary benefits from the municipality of Metropolitan Toronto. In October of 1973 this population comprised approximately 15,600 families and individuals receiving general welfare assistance and 15,800 families and individuals in receipt of family benefits.”", "And of course you have to know that Metropolitan Toronto is not prepared to give subsidies to those on family benefits. Their position is if the province isn’t concerned we can’t pay the money for the people who should be in their concern.", "There is a devastating description in this report of substandard housing the people are forced to live in for lack of anything else. In the report they say:", "“The reader should be alert to the following cautions:", "“1. The assessment of housing adequacy is aimed only toward providing a general review of the adequacy of housing obtained by social assistance recipients. It is not, for example, to be confused with analyses that might be used to project housing stock requirements.", "“2. Only when we present our composite index, which combines most of these data, can a clear judgement be made as to the housing quality faced by social assistance recipients. The details presented here are illuminating none the less.”", "I am not going to go on into this report, much as I have been tempted to do so, and as you will see I clearly came prepared to read further excerpts. I just trust that someone over there is going to read very carefully what that report has to say.", "Mr. Speaker, I am not normally a person who cries out in dramatic terms. I wish I had that sort of flair sometimes, but I honestly and sincerely believe that at this time when our middle income group is now becoming the disadvantaged poor, housing-wise, or is joining the disadvantaged housing poor, we may well think in terms of what Willy Brandt had to say about the future of our democracy and this kind of chaos. These sorts of statements, the sounding brass and the tinkling cymbal, are not going to satisfy the people of this province any longer and we can no longer permit the waste of our land and the waste of the talents of our people.", "Thank you, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for York South." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. C. MacDonald (York South)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, in entering this debate, it is my intention to deal with a few variations on a single theme, that of the cost of living.", "There is rather an interesting contrast in this country at the present time. In Ottawa, the Conservative Party poses as one deeply, almost exclusively, preoccupied with the cost of living. It has presented a rather simplistic programme but nobody is persuaded of its validity except itself and in most countries where it has been attempted it has failed. The public image is that of a party which is concerned and if it only had the power, if it hadn’t been cheated of power, it would be doing something about it. Let’s leave Ottawa to itself.", "Down here we have a Conservative Party in power. The Tories have the power and what are they doing about it, Mr. Speaker? The simple answer is they’re doing virtually nothing. In addition to all of these specific instances that might be cited and which the hon. member who has just taken her seat did cite in reference to housing -- where government policy has been a thrust to the inflationary spiral -- I have been rather interested in the last few days in the reaction of the government. Periodically, when the issue of inflation and its importance has come before the House, the Premier has risen and verbally browbeaten Ottawa for not doing anything and then indicated that down here this government is doing something. In a mindless sort of way, spontaneously, there would break out applause from all the backbenches on the government side of the House.", "It was rather interesting that on two occasions the Premier deigned to indicate to us what he thought this government was doing. In so doing, he borrowed from the comments of the member for High Park (Mr. Shulman) whom he has seen on TV on some occasions stating, I assume, essentially what the member said in the House this morning -- namely that one of the major thrusts to inflation in this country is the excessive and growing expenditures of government. By implication, the Premier was suggesting that this government has not been contributing to inflation by excessive expenditure. Mr. Speaker, I don’t know whether wittingly or unwittingly the Premier is trying to deceive the public or if he is operating on the assumption the bigger the lie the more likely it is to be believed, because just for one moment let us pause and consider what has happened during the years of this Premier’s administration. Let’s not go back any further.", "In the year 1970, the budget in the Province of Ontario was $5,216 million. In the year 1971, it was $6,027 million. In the year 1972 it was $6,509 million. In the year 1973, it was $7,269 million; and I predict that when the budget comes down tomorrow the budget in the Province of Ontario will be close to, if not in excess of $8 billion.", "What does that mean, Mr. Speaker? It simply means that in the last three years -- three years of this administration in the 1970s -- the budget in the Province of Ontario has gone up in excess of $2 billion. Do you know what is interesting, to throw that into perspective, Mr. Speaker? The provincial budget in 1967 was just a shade under $2 billion. In other words, it took us 100 years to build a budget of $2 billion in this province and in three years of this government we’ve added that amount to it within the Province of Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. Gisborn (Hamilton East)", "text": [ "They bought their way into power with our money." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Look, our government expenditures are going up and I’m not so much decrying it as calling on the government and upon the Premier to cut out the blatant deception and suggestion to the people of Ontario that this government has been playing its role -- presumably in this way only -- to check inflation by not spending excessively, when in fact, Mr. Speaker, this government has boosted its budgets in a fashion that would match if not exceed those of virtually any government you want to point to." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. Sargent (Grey-Bruce)", "text": [ "What’s a billion?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Now, Mr. Speaker, if there was any doubt there was a vacuum in government policy in this important issue all you have to do is take a look at the Throne Speech, which we are now debating.", "That Throne Speech had one fleeting paragraph. Let me read that paragraph into the record again. The leader of the New Democratic Party (Mr. Lewis) did so in the initial response on behalf of this party; but I want to read it in again and then I want to take a good detailed look at it. It read as follows:", "“While my government will employ all practical means at its disposal to alleviate the causes and effects of inflation, nevertheless it bears repeating that the problem can only be dealt with in a national context, with all governments co-operating.”", "In short, Mr. Speaker, what this government is guilty of is an almost total 100 per cent cop-out. It has two sections in that paragraph. The second one is in effect saying that nothing can be done at the provincial level if the federal government isn’t willing to co-operate.", "Look, obviously there has got to be co-operation between provincial and the federal government. Quite frankly, the federal government is doing more than the provincial government, primarily because of pressure from the opposition -- on occasion even from the Tories but mainly from the NDP -- so they are doing something. But this government is doing nothing; and they are doing nothing because they are in effect suggesting that it isn’t a provincial responsibility. I’m going to give specific cases later in dealing with certain themes. The government simply cops out and says “that’s a federal responsibility,” let’s just pause, Mr. Speaker, and deal with this issue of what is the constitutional responsibility of a province in this country with regard to price controls and the inflation that flows from it.", "I want to quote, Mr. Speaker, because it does it so very succinctly, one paragraph from an article that appeared in the Queen’s Quarterly, winter edition, 1973, on the constitutional implications of price control legislation by Terrence Morley. It reads as follows:", "“The provinces, of course, can impose price controls within their own boundaries. The British Columbia case of Home Oil Distributors Ltd. vs. Attorney General of British Columbia in 1940, SCR 444, in which it was held that a province could pass legislation fixing the wholesale and retail prices of fuel oil and gasoline, clearly implies similar provincial powers over other commodities. It is equally clear, however, that the imposition of different levels of price controls over different commodities by some, but not all provinces, would led to economic chaos and to the dismemberment of the nation.", "“Moreover, in the final analysis provincial price controls might well be found to be ultra vires, since they could be said to constitute internal trade barriers which the Supreme Court recently struck down in Attorney General for Manitoba vs the Manitoba Egg Marketing Board of 1971, SCR 689.”", "That’s the end of the quotation.", "Now I agree, Mr. Speaker, that you can’t move in any great distance within one province in terms of price controls because you get out of step with all of the other provinces. As Mr. Morley states, that would create economic chaos; everybody concedes this.", "But that’s no excuse for doing nothing at all, and that’s what this government is doing. I agree that the lawyers argue that if the province were to get into the field that then ultimately, by getting into the field, it might be interpreted that they were intervening in interprovincial trade and violating the constitution and the BNA Act.", "That’s a possibility, and on rare occasions it has happened. But to use that ultimate possibility, Mr. Speaker, as an excuse for not doing anything at all, and then by not doing anything at all adopting a posture which is almost exclusively one of verbal browbeating of Ottawa, means to cop-out totally as far as the Province of Ontario is concerned.", "I want to suggest that on this business of blaming Ottawa and saying you have no responsibility, there simply is no justification for it. The province has the constitutional power. There may be limitations upon which it can exercise that power, because of the intervention on interprovincial trade and because of price variations that would create economic chaos; but they have the power, and if they want Ottawa to move, surely they are going to put the pressure on Ottawa to move when they prove willingness on their part to start the whole process, to go half way, to assume their responsibility. Then they will be on firm ground in shouting and screaming politically at Ottawa to do a bit more if we really want to come to grips with this important problem of inflation.", "So there is the one aspect of this sort of cop-out. However, let me deal with the second aspect, because it is even more important. That was where, in the first part of that paragraph in the Throne Speech, it said: “While my government will employ all practical means at its disposal to alleviate the causes and effects of inflation.”", "“All practical means at its disposal to alleviate the causes and the effects of inflation.” Well you know, Mr. Speaker, that is just unmitigated rot.", "I want to proceed with a few instances to show just how this government is doing virtually nothing; and secondly how it is ignoring other practical means that are at its disposal, that other provinces across this country are resorting to with ever greater frequency.", "Let me begin by going back to the summary that the leader of the New Democratic Party made of the efforts of one minister -- this is my first point -- the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations (Mr. Clement) after he got into this whole exercise about last August or September when there was a great public furor burst upon this nation because of rising prices. Indeed the questions, rather embarrassing questions, were put to the Premier when he was down in Charlottetown at the Premiers’ conference, and he said he was going to speak to the minister.", "The minister said he was going to call in the top brass of the supermarkets, and one got the impression that, boy the show was really on the road. But what we got, as usual from this government, was a conference, a food conference to look into conflicts.", "No, there were no prayers about it at all, may I say, to the hon. member for Victoria-Haliburton (Mr. R. G. Hodgson) I think it is. As a matter of fact, if it had been prayers it might have been more useful than what did go on at the conference. Because out of the conference emerged a lot of promises and suggestions about what the ministry was going to do.", "As I said, the hon. member for Scarborough West (Mr. Lewis), the New Democratic leader, referred to these. Just let me recall them to the House. The minister promised a business practices Act to prohibit unfair and deceptive practices. Where is it? We haven’t seen it yet.", "He promised that the courts would be given power to rule on what were unconscionable profits. Well where is it? We’ve had no legislation on that level.", "Third, he would explore cease and desist orders in case of unconscionable prices. Well where is the legislation? This is an urgent problem. Eight months have gone by. The minister is ruminating. Nothing is happening. We have no legislation.", "Fourth, he would arm the government with authority to act against food hoarding, speculating, profiteering and fraud. Oh boy, he was huffing and puffing those days. He was really going to scare every wolf out of the free-enterprise patch, so to speak." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson (Victoria-Haliburton)", "text": [ "He was reading the member’s old speeches." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "But there was nothing done and there has been nothing done. It’s huffing and puffing and nothing more.", "Finally, he was going to monitor regional price disparities. He was going to find out why you had these price disparities and he was going to document them, and indeed as of about two weeks ago he said the report was going to come into the House. He told us a week ago Friday that it was going to be in this past week.", "I sent a note over to him last Monday saying: “When will it be in?” He said: “Thursday.” Well Thursday has gone and Friday has gone and the weekend has gone. We are back to Monday and we still haven’t got the report. In other words, we have had an absolute blank. A great deal of bluffing and a great deal of bluster, but we have had nothing from this whole ministry, which presumably is the ministry within this government which is designed to protect the consumer.", "I was hoping I was going to have his report on some examination of pricing procedures in the supermarkets so that I might be able to deal with it. In the absence of the report I want to make a few comments to the minister and to the House. With regard to this very difficult problem of how one copes with pricing in the supermarkets and so on.", "Mr. Speaker, there has been a tendency, and quite frankly I think maybe in the New Democratic Party we are guilty of it too, to speak too exclusively --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "That’s for sure." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "The member doesn’t even know what I’m talking about. He mindlessly started supporting the Premier when he said nothing. He supports me before I’ve spoken." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "I agree with the member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Well it’s ill advised; just wait till I speak." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "Sure, when he is wrong." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Just wait till I speak." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. M. Havrot (Timiskaming)", "text": [ "Don’t trust him." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. E. Stokes (Thunder Bay)", "text": [ "Is the member for Victoria-Haliburton still waiting on the call for parliamentary assistant?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "No, I am not." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "What I was going to say, Mr. Speaker, was there has perhaps been undue attention focused on the profits of the supermarkets. The profits of the supermarkets aren’t inconsequential. The very fact that they got away from what is the normal and the legitimate standards of measuring profits, namely the profit one has based on the equity capital one puts into it and have now come up with this gimmick that their profits are a cent or a cent and a quarter or three-quarters of a cent on each dollar of the turnover when they’ve got such a massive turnover, is an indication they are trying to camouflage the size of their profits.", "Mr. Speaker, the important thing about the operation of modem supermarket retailing isn’t just the profits. It is, firstly, the amount of money the consumer pays to engage in this rather futile, uneconomic, wasteful exercise of advertising for a purpose which is completely different from advertising in days gone by. And I’ll deal with that in a bit more detail in a moment.", "And secondly, there is the amount of the consumer dollar that is spent in all manner of gimmickry and excessively plush, affluent kinds of facilities for which the consumer is paying.", "Those three ingredients, not just profits, represent the kind of gouging by the supermarket which also serves their other purposes, namely to kill off virtually all other competition, particularly the independent.", "I don’t know, Mr. Speaker, whether you have had a chance to read two of the articles on the cost of food in the current issue of Maclean’s Magazine, the April, 1974, issue of Maclean’s Magazine. There is one article by Walter Stewart in which he traces the fascinating history of the development of Safeway’s in western Canada. Incidentally, before I go any further, he points out that Safeway’s, which has even cleaned out many other supermarkets in western Canada, is moving into northwestern Ontario with about 16 outlets and is gradually moving down this way. So this is going to be our problem as well as its manifestations in western Canada already." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. C. E. McIlveen (Oshawa)", "text": [ "They have one in Oshawa." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "They have one in Oshawa already? Maybe that’s one of the 16.", "He traces and studies the development of Safeway’s in western Canada and how they achieved their particular position. Mr. Speaker, let me quote to give you the flavour and the substance, just two or three paragraphs.", "“What all this suggests for the consumer is that the cutthroat competition which supermarkets so anxiously tell us about is not likely in the long run to bring food prices down. In the shuffle for position among the food giants, the chief casualties are the independents. The net result of price wars appears to be to cripple the independents and transfer the cost of the campaign against them on to everybody else’s grocery bill.”", "Here is a third quotation. In fact, this is a quotation credited to Prof. R. E. Owley, vice-president of Consumers’ Association of Canada, who drew the moral. I quote:", "“Advertising by food chains and price wars are a sign of oligopoly not competition. These rivalries result in self-cancelling advertising that result in almost exclusive emphasis on very shiny war-located retail store premises whose costs are borne by the consumer.”", "A little earlier in this article Walter Stewart quotes Eric Blackman, who is Safeway’s merchandising chief, and Blackman wanted to make one thing perfectly clear. I quote: “What they were charging us with -- ” -- I should intervene, Mr. Speaker, to say that this quote is made in the context of the Federal Combines Commission having laid a charge and taken the store to court for being in the combine. He said, “What they were charging us with was standard business practice and nothing immoral or illegal.”", "In other words what we have in the instance of Safeway, Mr. Speaker -- and the history is there to be seen and the consequences are there to be seen in western Canada -- is the operations of a company operating not in violation of the tenets of free enterprise but untrammelled free enterprise; which stomped on the opposition, which indulged in cutthroat procedures until it got rid of the opposition and then would increase its prices.", "When, for example, studies were made and they found that Safeway was charging more in those areas which were the poor areas of some of the western cities in Canada, they didn’t deny it. They said they weren’t charging more because they happened to be the poor areas; they were charging more because there was no competition there and therefore the market was free to be gouged.", "Fewer stores will go into the poorer areas. Safeway goes in because it knows it will have less competition. It doesn’t even have to spend money to kill the competition. It just gouges the market and the fact that it happens to be the poorer people of the city is of no particular concern to them.", "Mr. Speaker, what I am telling you is not new. I have here in my hand a copy of the report of the royal commission on consumer problems in inflation which was conducted and reported on in 1968 for the Provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta. In that there is documentation of the operation and the consequences of the operation, in terms of higher cost to the consumers, of retailing in western Canada.", "I repeat, Mr. Speaker, those retailers who dominated the scene in western Canada are now moving into Ontario. If the Tories want, let me borrow that phrase again, “practical means to alleviate the causes and effects of inflation,” they have a prescription of practical means in that particular area. All they have to do is to apply it to the conditions in Ontario; and indeed if they don’t apply it Safeway and some of the boys are going to apply it and give them an illustration of it right there.", "However, Mr. Speaker, that is only part of the story --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "Are they leaving those NDP provinces already?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Pardon?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "They are not leaving those NDP provinces already, are they?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "They sure are." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "The member should wait until they have a chance to do something about it out there, which they are proceeding with now." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "They’re leaving Saskatchewan and Manitoba." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "The member shouldn’t hold his breath. However I want to come back home." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "Like rats on a sinking ship." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "I have in my hand a document which I have referred to with increasing frequency during the past year because it is an Ontario document. It is a document, research report No. 14, of the special committee on farm incomes, which was, if I recall correctly, The Challenge of Abundance, tabled in January, 1969 or 1970. This research report deals with wholesaling and retailing of food in Ontario. It was done by William Janssen, who by no strange coincidence has since risen and is now a Deputy Minister of Agriculture in Manitoba. It was also done by a man by the name of Harry Weijs -- I don’t know the correct pronunciation -- who happens to be today one of the top partners in Topecon, agricultural consultants here in the city of Toronto. I will come back to him a minute or so later.", "Let me give you some very brief quotations out of this, Mr. Speaker, to show you what I am drawing to the attention of the minister, who is going to bring down a report which I am almost dead certain in advance will be a vacuous report of certain discrepancies that he can’t do anything about.", "He can’t do anything about it, because he isn’t willing and able to make a fundamental attack and recognize that this is a very bizarre operation -- the free enterprise system at its very worst.", "What has got to be done is to have governments move in and civilize them, because free enterprisers without some regulations are the most uncivilized and ruthless characters in the world. That’s the way the system operates.", "Okay, one or two quotations from this report of 1969, prepared as a study paper for a report to the Minister of Agriculture and Food (Mr. Stewart) here in the Province of Ontario. On page 11: “Competition among supermarkets has taken on a form that is essentially different from price competition.” On page 12, and this is a quotation, interestingly enough, from the Canadian Grocer of June, 1968, by O. E. Olley, “Inflation of Frills Has Brought Constant Public Scrutiny.” The paragraph that is quoted from his article in the Canadian Grocer is this:", "“For large-scale advertising to work, the buyer must be only partially informed about the nature of what he is buying and the products must be complex enough so that the precise evaluation is not possible. These conditions are perfectly met by grocery re- tailing.”", "Just let me pause and paraphrase, Mr. Speaker. What in effect he is saying is that the purpose of advertising isn’t to inform the prospective consumer or purchaser, rather it is to partially inform him so that he can’t evaluate precisely the product. It is a deliberate and calculated confusing of the issue rather than the clarification of it.", "I go on to the next page:", "“In essence, variable-price merchandising involves the simultaneous and sequential manipulation of selected prices upwards and downwards in order to draw attention to the market offerings of the firm and to differentiate them from those of the competitors.”", "In other words, Mr. Speaker, what the advertising is doing is deliberately manipulating prices up and down and then trying to persuade the public by partial information -- by deception -- that they have got a bargain. But they can’t assess it in any precise way, because the purpose of the advertising is that they shall not be able to assess it. I continue:", "“It is commonly accepted that the price of an item bears some definite relationship to its cost, as it would if a standard mark-up were employed. This is no longer valid for items sold in the supermarkets. The advantages to the supermarkets of this type of pricing policy are quite clear. If they were to operate with set price lists, consumers would have the opportunity of making comparisons over extended periods of time and of discovering the stores which, for their particular needs, were most economical.”", "But you see, Mr. Speaker, that’s precisely what the supermarkets don’t want -- that the public can find out what they are offering at a price and come to a conclusion. So they come to a conclusion in this study:", "“The best price mix for the store would be a minimum of strategic items at lower prices to attract the customers, and a maximum of higher-priced items to increase the profits.”", "The point I am making, Mr. Speaker, is this. If this government or any government, including the NDP governments out in western Canada, is going to do anything about what has now been documented quite a number of times -- that the net effect of the operation of the supermarkets in their pursuit of the so-called free enterprise approach is to establish a monopoly or at least an oligopoly, to destroy their competitors, and to do it by cut-throat procedures and advertising and gimmickry, all of which is taken out of the consumer’s dollar, and then when it’s ended, they are in a position to charge what they please -- if the government is going to clean up that kind of situation, it has got to have the courage to make a fresh, new start.", "And the government is not going to be able to do it within the legalities of the Combines Act; it may be able to make some measure of progress but not too much, as events have already proven, because all one has got to do is get, really, a rather mediocre lawyer and one can tie that up in trying to match reality with the law." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. A. Grossman (Provincial Secretary for Resources Development)", "text": [ "Maybe they should change the Act." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "The minister is right. And I noticed with what alacrity and detail the Tories did it when Diefenbaker was in power. And I notice with what alacrity and detail the Liberals are doing it now that they are in power." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "How far back does the member want to go in history?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "That is far enough. I’ve got both parties in the same bag at the same time -- and it’s the right bag for both of them on this issue. They won’t change it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)", "text": [ "Where they rightfully belong." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "What bag?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "It wouldn’t even require a large bag to get them in, they are so close together." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Now, Mr. Speaker, perhaps before we can move to get legislation -- and I look forward with great interest to what this minister is going to bring in now that he has had all this eight months of study; that’s a long enough gestation period for production. We will see what he produces.", "My guess is the mountain is going to produce a mouse, but let me not prejudge it.", "All I am saying is that before the government is able to move it may have to get some more facts about the conditions in the Province of Ontario. And that brings us back to the basics as far as our policy in the New Democratic Party is concerned in the Province of Ontario. The only way we are going to get the basics is to set up some kind of prices review board; and not a strait jacket that is going to impose price and wage controls for an alleged 90-day period -- that kind of simplistic nonsense nobody, including many who are promoting it, will believe. We need a prices review board that can zero in on the obvious cases of exorbitant pricing, smoke them out, get the facts, provide them to the public and, where necessary, have the legislative power to impose rollbacks.", "That, I suggest, Mr. Speaker, in the phraseology of the Throne Speech, is a practical means at the disposal of this government to alleviate some of both the causes and the effects of inflation. And that’s point one, which I draw to the attention of the minister, where the government has copped out completely.", "Let me move to the second point, which is in the field of agriculture. I was very interested early in March, when the Legislature resumed, to draw to the attention of the Minister of Agriculture and Food that the four western Premiers had met and decided, at the end of their conference, that they were going to establish a prices review mechanism to look into the pricing procedures of two of the major farm inputs, namely fertilizer and farm machinery.", "I had to remind the Minister of Agriculture and Food, because he had momentarily forgotten, that while the Premiers of three of those provinces in western Canada are NDP -- and therefore it’s not surprising that they are moving -- the fourth one, who presumably is moving with equal enthusiasm, happens to be Peter Lougheed, who is a Tory; and each of these governments is now moving to establish a prices review mechanism.", "The minister here said they had an alternative approach; they were going to call a conference down at the Four Seasons Hotel, and it was held the following week. Well, Mr. Speaker, of all the futile exercises, that conference took the cake. All it did was to prove what everybody knew before the conference was held, namely that there is a desperate and growing shortage of fertilizer and that the companies are using that shortage to boost prices and to rip off farmers, even those who aren’t able to get a portion of the fertilizer they need.", "So when I pursued this once again with the minister, and asked; “What are you going to do about it?” he said in effect that he didn’t know what could be done about it; in short this government is going to do nothing. Well, again for the benefit of the minister -- in fact, before I get into that, let me draw to the attention of the House the comments of Farm and Country magazine. Now Farm and Country is perhaps the most --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Most Socialist magazine." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "-- the most well-read and perhaps the most authoritative farm magazine in the Province of Ontario. I wish on occasion it wouldn’t operate as though it were a sort of company sheet of the government -- a sort of in-plant sheet, so to speak -- but on this occasion when it is as critical as this, one can come to the conclusion the criticism is really doubly valid.", "On the front page of the March 26 issue, they refer to this conference that was held under the sponsorship -- at what cost, who knows? -- of the Ontario Minister of Agriculture and Food. Let me read four paragraphs:", "“Edward Thompson, a Guelph area cash cropper, fertilizer dealer and active Ontario Federation of Agriculture member, broke up the recent National Fertilizer Conference with his accusation that the meeting was a whitewash. The speakers had repeatedly told the 180 delegates present that farmers everywhere will have serious problems finding enough fertilizer for the next three years. No farmer organization was asked to present a brief or even comment on the speakers’ statements. Question periods were minimal.", "“‘There’s no fertilizer crisis in Canada,’ Thompson explained. ‘I sat at the meeting for a day and a half and listened to 26 speakers all from the government and the fertilizer industry, while they justified their positions!’", "“After Thompson slammed the meeting for making no real effort to solve the fertilizer supply situation, he was supported by OFA president, Gordon Hill, National Farmers’ Union vice president, Walter Miller, and Christian Farmers’ Federation president Martin Verkuyl.”", "Well, there you have it, Mr. Speaker, All farm organizations in effect saying that it was a whitewash and a useless gesture. And what’s going to happen? The government isn’t going to do anything.", "Well, again by way of suggesting that maybe this is a practical means at their disposal, may I draw to your attention, Mr. Speaker, another study that is being done in western Canada. Fertilizer Marketing, Manitoba, came out about three weeks ago. It happens to be a study done by that company I referred to earlier, Topecon, which is a Toronto-based company.", "The major person involved in the study, which was really a royal commission, was that Harry Weijs I referred to who happened to be a co-author with William Janssen in the earlier document, that special study on wholesaling and retailing food prices in Ontario. In short, he knows Ontario and he knows the agricultural industry. But he was asked to do a special study of the situation in Manitoba.", "And you know, Mr. Speaker, I don’t know to what extent those conditions out there apply here in Ontario, but I have a healthy suspicion, which I will insist in sticking to until I have some evidence that they don’t apply in Ontario. And what were the conditions in western Canada?", "First, they confessed they were guilty of price manipulation. I’m sorry, I should have mentioned that the major focus was not only on Cominco and one or two other major manufacturers of fertilizer, but on Simplot, a plant in Brandon, Manitoba, which is a subsidiary of an American plant making fertilizer. It was a plant, incidentally, which was built through the Manitoba Development Corp. providing $23 million in loans and the federal government providing $5 million in grants in order to provide Manitoba with an adequate supply of fertilizer at reasonable prices. That’s the bit of background that I should have given members so they might grasp the significance of the royal commission conclusions.", "Simplot conceded they were guilty of price manipulation. They conceded they engaged in price discrimination. They admitted what had really provoked the study in the first place; namely that they were selling Manitoba manufactured fertilizer cheaper in the United States than they were to Canadians, in spite of the fact that the plant was built with $28 million in Canadian public funds or grants.", "They gave no valid explanation for the fact that one of the stipulations in that agreement that the Manitoba Development Corp. had signed with Simplot was that the parent company in the United States would have available an assured supply of phosphoric acid and other necessary ingredients for making phosphate fertilizer. In 1971 the plant in the United States cut off these supplies to the Canadian plant, and as the report said, they got rather fuzzy and vague explanations as to why.", "But finally, and most important, Mr. Speaker, this plant, Simplot -- privately owned ostensibly, but built with such a chunk of the public funds -- along with all of the three or four other plants in western Canada that are privately owned, in the private sector, are all part of a marketing zone that includes American fertilizer plants in the states just south of the border below the three western provinces. They document in this report the price manipulation, the price discrimination, the selling at lower prices to Americans of Canadian-produced fertilizer -- all of these practices within a zone that takes in Canada and the adjoining northern part of the United States.", "Now, Mr. Speaker, can you assure me that kind of thing isn’t going on in the Province of Ontario? Of course you can’t. In fact the odds that it is are very high. The boundary is invisible as far as these boys are concerned. They may be an American company ostensibly and a Canadian company ostensibly, but they will get together and they will carve out a zone that spans the border and in which they are manipulating and engaging in discriminatory pricing practices. I am convinced it is going on in the Province of Ontario.", "And if this government wants -- I cite as a second case -- a practical means of prevention at its disposal, let it follow the example of the four western provinces and move in with some kind of a price review mechanism, at least on these isolated two major farm inputs that contribute so much to farm costs. Let them get out the facts, and then when they have got the facts perhaps even they will screw up their courage sufficiently that they will pass legislation to roll back prices and to call a halt to the unconscionable gouging that is going on.", "That’s the second point. Let me move on to the third.", "The role of the energy board --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Perhaps I should point out to the hon. member that it is my understanding that there is going to be a private members’ hour at 5 o’clock. This might be an appropriate place for the hon. member to move adjournment." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "Well Mr. Speaker, I have to state that I have another commitment outside the House. I can’t get away; I have to speak to the farmers of Oxford county, and I know my hon. friend there would be deeply hurt if I didn’t go out there. I have given you a taste of what can be given and I shall have to leave the remainder of it for a later date." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Does the hon. member have further comments?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "I have many further comments, but I shall not have the opportunity to give them." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "Let him send them over to me and I will make them for the hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Perhaps the member for Scar- borough Centre would allow him to continue for another 15 minutes?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. F. Drea (Scarborough Centre)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, if he needs four or five minutes more he can cut into my time if he wishes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "No, I can’t do it in four or five minutes.", "Look, I don’t want to impose on the rules of the House, if the rules of the House are such. All I have done is begin to document what is a yawning case of this government’s inaction in the field where there are a lot of practical things that can be done." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Then do I understand the hon. member for York South correctly that he would have further remarks but that he cannot make them in view of other commitments after the conclusion?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. MacDonald", "text": [ "You understand, with your normal perception and precision, sir.", "Hon. Mr. Grossman moves the adjournment of the debate.", "Motion agreed to." ] } ]	April 8, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-08/hansard
PRIVATE MEMBERS’ HOUR: RIGHTS OF LABOUR ACT	[ { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scar- borough Centre." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. F. Drea (Scarborough Centre)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, it is with some degree of sadness that I introduce this bill because it represents, unfortunately, a rather complex time in our heritage of industrial democracy. By the very introduction of this bill it is apparent that the traditional role of the free trade union in our society has been unable to cope with some of the recent innovations in that industrial society and that is, to wit, the crook.", "Mr. Speaker, I wish that I did not have to introduce a bill called An Act respecting the Rights of Labour. I would prefer that the labour movement collectively could deal with the abuses by the minority of that movement by its own action. If I thought that the ethical practices committee of the Canadian Labour Congress could deal with certain situations, I would not introduce this bill. Unfortunately, by default they have shown that they cannot. If I thought that the Ontario Federation of Labour, through internal discipline, could deal with the type of situation that I am concerned about, then once again I would not have introduced this bill.", "Perhaps it is expecting too much for organizations that are essentially voluntary, for organizations that have had a difficult and occasionally insurmountable struggle, to achieve respectability. By respectability, I mean the right to carry on their affairs without harassment from a law and order society. I suppose it might be asking a bit too much of them now to have the type of stringent internal discipline that would enable them to clean up the minority.", "Mr. Speaker, there are very many fine unions in this province. In fact, I would say to you, sir, that at least 95 per cent of the people who are engaged in full-time or voluntary union activity in this province are the type of people that you and I would be very proud to take home to dinner on Sunday.", "Unfortunately, and particularly in the last few years, there has evolved a new concept of unionism, albeit by a minority, that unionism is a business.", "We have seen the rise of such business unionists as the unlamented Hal Chamberlain Banks. We have seen, in our own area of southern Ontario, the rise of a great number of people into the labour movement. Unfortunately, they have not gone into the labour movement for the same things that motivated people a generation or so ago. We have seen in our own construction industry, here in southern Ontario, a rather sordid parade of so-called union leaders whose only goal was to enrich themselves at the expense of the people they were sworn to protect.", "Mr. Speaker, I suggest to you that the type of legislation I am proposing here today is more necessary today than ever before, because we in this country, and particularly in Ontario, have virtually an open door for immigration. Many of the abuses concern labour organizations that deal almost exclusively, when it comes to membership, with people who have one thing in common; that is, their inability to speak English or to know the laws and the rights of this province.", "I think it is particularly wilful of a person who takes advantage of a name and a heritage as honourable as that of the trade union movement and then uses it to line his own pockets while denying any form of justice to those who are compelled to belong to his organization as the price of keeping their job.", "Mr. Speaker, in the last few years in this Legislature we have heard about violence. We have heard about union leaders whose biggest asset is the number of bodyguards they have. We have heard about loans to union officers from companies they were dealing with. We have heard about loans to union officials from unions and from their own treasuries. We have heard about special favours. We have heard about special vacations. We have heard about a great number of irregularities.", "In short, Mr. Speaker, we now have a problem in industrial society in Ontario where there is a desperate need for regulation of the minority that is threatening to erode all the decent concepts of trade unionism in this province. I say to you if there was only one man or so who was taking a bribe, because that is what all of those loans and favours and vacations and trips and houses and what have you are, if there was only one or two taking a bribe and it was roundly condemned by the rest of the movement, then, Mr. Speaker, perhaps a bill or some type of enforcement would not be necessary.", "It pains me a great deal that this type of thing goes on and the criticism does not come publicly from within the labour movement -- not that the majority of men and women in the labour movement in this province are anything but honest and honourable. I suggest to you, sir, the system has tied them so much hand and foot that they are unable to criticize others. By the very fact that that system denies them the right to discipline the bad apples, the crooks, the hangers-on and those who would exploit a man or a woman who cannot understand English so that they might have a better position in society themselves, I suggest to you Mr. Speaker, the time has come to look very inwardly into that type of system.", "I remember the former Provincial Secretary for Justice, Mr. A. F. Lawrence, and the dreadful dilemma he was in. As the law enforcement officer for the province, did he send the police out fully equipped, and I’m not talking in terms of revolvers or billy clubs or anything like that -- and enable them to use all of the tools at their disposal to find out those who were using unions as a racket base? The dreadful dilemma, Mr. Speaker, is that in a free society what happens when you send the police out into the internal operations of one of the integral parts of industrial democracy, is that when you get to that point you are getting perilously close to trade unionism as it exists from the Rio Grande down through South America. You can understand the very painful position that the police have. When bribes and so forth are reported to them, how far can they go?", "Mr. Speaker, the very content of this bill is to recognize that these are not, at least in the first instance, a matter of police responsibility. Rather I suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, they are a matter for the particular branch of government that is most concerned with working people, and that is the Ministry of Labour in this province.", "You will note that in this Act there is a preamble. That is by deliberate design for, after all, the Labour Relations Act of this province contains a preamble, and so does much of the labour legislation that we pass in this province. I suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that it is there for a reason, because this government is very cognizant of the rights of working people. When we are going to change or alter those rights --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. T. P. Reid (Rainy River)", "text": [ "Why is the member for Scarborough Centre bringing the bill in instead of the Minister of Labour (Mr. Guindon)?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "What is the member for Rainy River’s problem today?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "Why is the member bringing in the bill instead of the Minister of Labour? Is he at all concerned about it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. P. D. Lawlor (Lakeshore)", "text": [ "That is a very good question." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "I really still haven’t followed all of that, but we’ll get around to it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "Answer that question." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "I will, if I could understand the question and members give the time on this. What is the question?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "The member is saying that the government is so concerned about these things. Why then isn’t the Minister of Labour bringing in the bill?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "The member might be very surprised about what the Minister of Labour does with this bill." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. Haggerty (Welland South)", "text": [ "The member is just jumping the gun." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "I’d be surprised if he did anything." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, the hon. member has the floor." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "Coming from the party the members do, I can understand their surprise at any kind of action at all, other than quoting inaccurate figures.", "Mr. Speaker, as I was saying about the preamble to this, this government is very cognizant of the rights of working people --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "That remark wasn’t worthy of the member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "-- unlike certain other parties, which have attempted over the years to rather ruthlessly deny it, even to the point of using tanks. And that is why the preamble, Mr. Speaker.", "Mr. Speaker, I suggest to you that the principle of part I, the principle of the definition of an associate, is very essential to any kind of unravelling of the insider operations, because after all, if one is to become a labour racketeer, it is like becoming any other type of racketeer; one does not go out and take up a billboard and disclose how they are getting their finances." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. Gisborn (Hamilton East)", "text": [ "That’s good old Toryism -- good old Toryism." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "It is concealed, it is hidden through sons or daughters, wives, bank accounts in other communities, relatives, and so on and so forth.", "I think that one of the questions that has been raised in the past is the inability of anyone to define the particular kind of insider relationship that exists within those who have adopted the occupation of labour racketeer or labour gangster. Mr. Speaker, I suggest to you the definition in part I that fits insider trading within the meaning of the Ontario Securities Act certainly should be sufficient for any type of insider operation within a trade union.", "I very seldom agree with the member for High Park (Mr. Shulman), but about a year ago he said something. He said there are crooked unions and there are good unions in this province; the crooked ones need regulation. There are crooked companies and there are good companies in this province; the crooked companies need regulation. That is what I have attempted to do in this particular bill.", "I have attempted to make it a balance. Because, 1 suggest to you, in industrial relations, for every union racketeer there is a management racketeer, although, unfortunately the management racketeer hides himself behind the name of consultant, or what have you, and somehow his activities never generate either the publicity or the revulsion that associated with those of the union gangster.", "I think there is good reason for that. I think, Mr. Speaker, that we must recognize that people expect more of their union representatives than they do of the boss, and while they are perfectly prepared to admit that the boss may hire a never-ending series of rather peculiar people of dubious reputation, they do not expect their union leaders to behave in that way. After all, there is a fundamental difference between the two. A union official is elected, or at least should be elected, and perhaps later in this session, Mr. Speaker, since I have another train of thought concerning union elections, we might very well get into how some of these people are elected and how they seem to stay in office.", "It’s rather a remarkable thing, Mr. Speaker, there are some very good union leaders who I have known who have not been able to stay in office, or they have been defeated after one term or two, and I thought they did a pretty good job. Yet I see people who have negotiated wage cuts for five, six or seven years in a row, and somehow they stay in office; and perhaps later in the session, Mr. Speaker, I may have something to bring to bear upon that situation.", "Mr. Speaker, passing on to the principle of part III, this, I suggest to you, comes to the very crux of the matter. I believe that the full glare of public opinion is the one area where we can focus the maximum amount of scrutiny upon this type of thing, short of bringing us back to the old police days when there were massive dossiers and so forth on virtually every union leader and every type of person in the field of labour relations in this province. I don’t want that. That is why I have gone to some lengths to try and produce an effort whereby these things will be brought to the attention of the Minister of Labour.", "The Minister of Labour will have powers to act, and the availability of the Minister of Labour will have powers to act, and the availability of the Minister of Labour will be open to the individual trade union member. Furthermore, there will be a lot more than the basic protection we have now because the only protection we have now is that upon request an audited statement of the union’s activities will be presented to the member.", "The mind boggles at the prospect of a man or a woman who has been in this country a couple of years being told his or her basic protection against the kind of person I am talking about is an audited statement. The audited statement hasn’t been a protection for many shareholders over the years until we brought in some rather rigid company laws. The audited statement isn’t much of a protection unless there is very tough regulation.", "The section on disclosure and reporting, Mr. Speaker, is a very simple chronology of all the things involving finances which the labour organization or, more particularly, the full-time person in a labour organization is doing including what I suggest might be the most important one which is No. 13, the issuance of work permits. Why is it that in Toronto so many people who can’t speak English have only a work permit which is non-renewable? Why is it so many people who speak English seem to have a full-time competency card? Mr. Speaker, why is it that in the Province of Quebec, when they get into the James Bay problem, they are going to find out about the issuance of work permits -- who got them, who paid for them, and a lot of other things that nobody wants to admit are behind some of the things which took place?", "One doesn’t send muscle into a place unless there is a need for it and unless the financial concerns warrant it. I suggest right now that muscle for unions is coming at a pretty high premium.", "I don’t think that disclosure by those in a trade union is enough. I think there is an onus upon management, particularly the kind of management which would betray the Minister of Labour in this province, the kind of management there is at Artistic Woodwork. Artistic Woodwork didn’t tell the Minister of Labour in this province that it had a company spy on the other side. Artistic Woodwork didn’t say exactly what that man was doing.", "Supposedly it came to the Minister of Labour in this province with clean hands and said, “Settle our strike. We are at the mercy of the union and the picket line.” But it didn’t say it had a man on the picket line. In retrospect, how much longer did he keep that picket line operative than if he had not been there?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "What about the man from the labour union?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I don’t think one can come to terms with the rise of the private detective industry in this province, particularly as regards labour relations, by trying to legislate them away from the strike.", "I think a far simpler way is we say to management that when it hires a consultant or a private detective or a special person who has anything to do with the collective bargaining process -- and collective bargaining, one will notice in the definition, is not from the time of the first contract but from the time the first card is signed -- if he has anything to do with the operations of the union during any or all of that time, management files with the Minister of Labour his name, his salary and what he is supposed to be doing.", "Then we shall see how many of these people are down on picket lines and how many of them are in the restaurant when people start to sign cards --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gisborn", "text": [ "What does one do with the information when the minister has got it? Let everybody have a look at it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "Yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. F. Young (Yorkview)", "text": [ "Why not forbid it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "Because I don’t think by forbidding it we come to the roots of the problem. I think we get too tied up in property rights and an awful lot of other things which perhaps the member and I don’t find very important but which somehow come to an impasse in law. I say to my friend, who is from Hamilton East and has had a lot more experience than I have, I think having it in the newspapers that so-and-so has hired four people to break up the union, and the total aggregate salary is $40,000 a year will, I suggest to you, sir, have more value than a blanket prohibition.", "Mr. Speaker, I would like to point out to you that I have tried to balance this. I realize that we are into a complex, complicated and frankly often peculiar time of industrial relations in this province. I think, Mr. Speaker, to weight the scales too much on one side or attempt to remedy so much that everything came over, I don’t think that that is the answer.", "Neither, sir, do I think that a patchwork piece of legislation that tries to attack a single problem is the answer. I suggest to you that the outline of regulations and the vast new powers for the Minister of Labour are far more preferable than having an anti-labour racketeering police squad.", "I suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, finally and in all sincerity that there are tens of thousands of people out there who are not fortunate enough to belong to organizations like the Steelworkers or the Auto Workers. Unfortunately, the system within the labour movement often consigns them to unions they want nothing to do with and there is nothing that you or I could do about it because that is the labour union set up in this country.", "I suggest to you, sir, that they are looking for someone who will at least champion their cause; for someone who will at least give them some of the weapons they need to combat the inroads of labour racketeering that now mean that instead of a union that will be a benefit to them, it is a union that is a benefit to someone who can put down on an application form: Last occupation, union gangster.", "Thank you, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Welland South." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The bill being debated this afternoon, a private member’s bill sponsored by the hon. member for Scarborough Centre, has indicated that not all is well within labour in Ontario. Certain unions have not been above board. I suppose the intent of the bill, Mr. Speaker, is to provide the necessary steps to eliminate or prevent improper practices on the part of labour organizations or activities in Ontario.", "As I go deeper into the bill, Mr. Speaker, I find that it is perhaps drafted rather hastily. It doesn’t cover everything, but I suppose it follows the principle of the Labour Management Reporting and Disclosure Act passed by the United States government in 1959. That Act, Mr. Speaker, is to:", "“Provide for the reporting and disclosure of certain financial transactions or administrative practices of labour organizations and employees to prevent abuses in the administration by trustees of labour organizations and to provide with respect to the election of officers in labour organizations and for other purposes.”", "Now, I suppose if one looks at the principle of the bill here and goes into detail in the bill this afternoon, Bill 15, in comparison the American bill provides: Title one: The bill of rights of a member of labour organization. Title two: Reporting by labour organization officers and employees of labour organizations and employees. Title three: Trusteeship. Title four: Elections. Title four: Safeguards for labour organizations. Title five: Miscellaneous provisions.", "I think I can quite agree with the hon. member for Scarborough Centre that there is corruption and illegal practices within the unions themselves. I speak not perhaps as a member of that particular union, but I am talking about a particular trade union, the AFL trades. I was a member of the CIO-AFL, if you want to put it that way, but it was the United Steelworkers of America.", "I can recall many instances in my working days when we would walk into a certain plant to do a particular job of construction, either putting up the building or putting up pipelines -- you just name it, it was there -- but I know in certain instances that because we didn’t belong to this union, we were denied the right of employment. I have seen instances where plants have been shut down because we didn’t belong to the particular union, or the threat was there that “if you don’t pull this group of men out the plant will shut down and we will put up a picket line” and so forth.", "I believe, looking at it from a union angle, that the union member himself can do more than the union agent or his organization; and if they attended the union meetings, they wouldn’t have these kinds of corruption and malpractices in the labour field. The simple reason may be -- and the hon. member made a good point -- that those of ethnic origin, through some problem of speech, perhaps can’t understand some of the rules. I quite agree with him on that; it is quite true that this does happen in the industry. I think the fault again lies with the Minister of Labour, who perhaps should produce some type of information or literature to inform those persons of their rights.", "The bill itself, Mr. Speaker, perhaps jumps the gun. We know that hearings have been held on organized crime in labour in Ontario, and I believe that much of the intent of this bill is to perhaps jump in right off the bat and perhaps is guessing what this report will bring down. I am sure it is going to bring down some recommendations, and perhaps they will be along the lines of the labour bill that was passed in the United States in 1959.", "I know that there is a certain amount of blacklisting going on in the hiring halls of unions today. I have had persons come to my place and tell me this, and I have said, “Well, put it in writing.” And they have said, “If I put it in writing, I’ll never get a job again. I know of cases where persons have been asked to pay a substantial amount of money to get a job.", "In fact, Mr. Speaker, I would like to read a letter here. I won’t give the name of the person, but he came to my office here back in December. He is a little Italian fellow who was concerned about the crime hearings being held here in Ontario. He came into my office a couple of times; I know he went around to other members, who perhaps didn’t listen to him -- but I listened to him. I thought that what he told me had quite a bit of truth in it.", "What he told me was happening at the union halls was that if he got up and said anything at the union hall, he would be slapped down if he wasn’t going along with what the agent had said. He informed me that if he wanted a job, it cost him $100 every time they sent him out to get a different job. And it was reported from one of the crime hearings -- and I can’t recall his name -- that one union agent had some $17,000 that he couldn’t account for. This fellow who came to my office told me, “The agent has got some of my $100 bills in the $17,000 that he couldn’t account for.”", "He went on to tell me that job after job had cost him $100, and he had complained about it at a union meeting. Do you know what happened to this gentleman, Mr. Speaker? For some unknown reason, he had an industrial accident. He told me, “I know somebody was on this scaffold with me. I was bending down, finishing my work” [he’s a cement finisher], “and I felt the person on the scaffold. When I stood up, the safety chain at the back was gone, and he was gone too.” When he came into mv office he was crippled on one side and could hardly speak. This is the kind of activity that is going on in many of these unions today. But I know there is a sledge-hammer being held over their heads and they are forced to go along with this. I think the member has also said this, but again I think we have to look back and see what the unions have done for the labourers throughout Canada. They play an important role in our society. We wouldn’t have the health and wealth, particularly the wealth, that this nation has today, had it not been for the changes the unions have brought.", "I can recall some number of years ago in certain industries in the city of Port Colborne that there were some illegal hiring practices going on. This was 30 or 40 years ago -- before my time -- but I often heard my dad talk to me about this. He told me that if you wanted a job in a certain industry, you had to pay the foreman. Well, unions came along and changed that. But for some reason the unions today have slipped back to this type of payola to hold and maintain a job. I think these are the things that perhaps the member is trying to get through to us here this afternoon." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Young", "text": [ "Did the member say all unions?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "I didn’t say all unions, no, not all the unions. There are certain ones there. These are some of the things that I’m concerned about.", "Before I would consider endorsing this bill, I would like to see the report from the hearings on the organized crime in labour in Ontario. As I said before, the bill is a little bit scanty as to what the intent is.", "I think if we brought in a bill similar to the one they have in the United States, the Labour Management Reporting and Disclosure Act, I think this party perhaps might go along with such proposals. I’m sure that bill did remove the unscrupulous problems that unions had over employees or over the hiring halls in the United States and it did correct them to some extent. Whether it would do it here or not in the Province of Ontario, I’m not quite sure. But I think again it’s worthwhile looking into.", "I know it’s taken quite a bit of courage for the hon. member to introduce this bill this afternoon. I think it’s going to take quite a bit of encouragement from any of us to speak on it, because sometimes they say that the minute you stand up here you’re against labour. No, I’m not against labour, but there’s much that can be improved in labour relations in the Province of Ontario which is not covered by the Labour Relations Act." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. J. Bounsall (Windsor West)", "text": [ "Nor in this bill." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "That’s what he said, too." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "I think this is where some of these persons have been blacklisted and blackballed in hiring throughout different unions in the Province of Ontario -- not all unions, but certain ones. When you find out particularly, Mr. Speaker, that these unions originated in the United States and that the constitutions of these unions overrule anything that goes on in the Labour Relations Act in the Province of Ontario, that is what’s wrong with it. If we’re going to control our unions and bring in justice in the Province of Ontario, then it must be contained and controlled by Canadian employees in the industry in the Province of Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Windsor West." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bounsall", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In rising to speak to this bill. An Act respecting the Rights of Labour, what disturbs me is the whole flavour of this bill. It’s trying to knock down open doors and trying to do with legislation what the vast majority of unions in this province and in this country already do. Before I get into the meat of my remarks, let me make a few comments on remarks already made.", "A hell of a lot more employers have been caught taking funds from or cheating their employees than unions have ever been. It’s a factor upon factor greater. It is ridiculous to imply in a bill like this, which has a very restrictive, discriminatory flavour to it, that unions engage in this as a matter of course, or even that more than a very, very small percentage ever do this, which is what the whole field of this bill is about.", "This Tory party or this government or any of its backbenchers over there have nothing to teach the unions about ethics, morals or participatory democracy." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "Ho! Ho! Let the member speak for himself." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bounsall", "text": [ "We’ve seen enough of it and heard enough of it in the last couple of years to know that that is true." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "How about the promises made about the Canadian unions?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bounsall", "text": [ "One of the things that every union that belongs to the Canadian Labour Congress must subscribe to, Mr. Speaker, is the code of ethical practices. In the preamble to that code, the Canadian Labour Congress recognizes that the record of union democracy, like our own country’s democracy, is not perfect. Nevertheless, there’s a set of principles to which all members of that Canadian Labour Congress must subscribe. There are a few unions that don’t belong; they’ve been kicked out of it because they haven’t subscribed to it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "A few which belong don’t subscribe, too." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bounsall", "text": [ "The member for Scarborough Centre has had his say. Don’t try to get another 10 minutes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "I wouldn’t need 10 with the member for Windsor West." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bounsall", "text": [ "The ones that have been kicked out are, by and large, those very nationalistic friends which our party to the right over here likes to talk about -- Kent Rowley’s boys, Pat Murphy’s boys and so on -- are not in the Canadian Labour Congress be- cause of their non-ethical practices." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "A few weeks ago the member loved Rowley. During the Artistic strike he was his hero. Now he is a crook." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bounsall", "text": [ "The code of ethical practices is this:", "“The Canadian Labour Congress and each of its affiliated unions shall undertake the obligation to appropriate constitutional or administrative measures in orderly procedure to ensure that any person who exercises a corrupt influence or who engages in corrupt practices shall not hold office of any kind in any such trade unions or organizations.", "“No person shall hold or retain office or appointed position in the CLC, or any of its affiliated national or international unions or subordinate bodies thereof who has been proven guilty through union procedures or courts of law of preying on the labour movement and its good name for corrupt purposes.", "“Each member of a union shall have the right to full and free participation in union self-government. This shall include the right:", "“(a) To vote periodically for his local, national and/or international officers, either directly by referendum vote, or through delegate bodies;", "“(b) To honest elections;", "“(c) To stand for and hold office subject only to fair qualifications uniformly imposed; and", "“(d) To voice his views as to the method in which the union’s affairs should be conducted.”", "It goes on and on.", "Those are three points out of 14, all of which are very tough and clear, and to which, if you wish to retain membership in the Canadian Labour Congress, Mr. Speaker, you must subscribe. If you pick up the constitution of virtually any of the unions affiliated to the Canadian Labour Congress and turn to its section -- and they are all there; they all have them -- on ethical practices codes, you’ll find these general statements contained here spelled out in much more detail. I am looking at one now, under democratic practices:", "“1. Each union member shall be entitled to a full share in union self-government.", "“Each member shall have full freedom of speech and the right to participate in the democratic decisions of the union.", "“Each member shall have the right to run for office, to nominate and to vote in free, fair and honest elections, and shall have the right to criticize the policies and personalities of union officials” [and so on and so forth].", "There is a strong section on financial practices and a strong section on the health, welfare and retirement fund, which says:", "“No official who exercises responsibilities or influence in the administration of health, welfare and retirement programmes or the placement of insurance contracts shall have any compromising personal ties, direct or indirect, with outside agencies such as insurance carriers, brokers or consultants doing business with the health, welfare and retirement fund.”", "I am just giving them very briefly here. I am not putting in nearly all of the points that are outlined in detail.", "Under business and financial activities of union officials -- a very strong section -- it says:", "“Every officer and representative must avoid any outside transaction which even gives the appearance of a conflict of interest. The mailing lists of the union are valuable assets and they cannot be in any sense turned over to any outsider for use in the promotion or sale of any goods or services.", "“No officer or representative shall have a personal or financial interest which conflicts with his union duties” [and so on].", "It is very finely typed, consisting of four or five pages of ethical practices which appear in most unions, and all of those unions which are members of the Canadian Labour Congress.", "Mr. Speaker, if you want to have a bill that deals with the rights of labour and what it should have, it should really be a useful bill that would adequately protect an employee from the difficulties he encounters in the workplace. We should be talking about what should be done with our present labour legislation. The right to organize and bargain collectively should he available to all employees. That is the type of bill we would like to see in this House, one that covers teachers, agricultural workers, plant guards and even managerial employees.", "The decision as to whether or not to join a union should be made by the employees. The right, therefore, of the company to appear before the Labour Relations Board to challenge this right should be removed. It takes months to get hearings before the board. The administrative procedures of that board must be streamlined to avoid legalism and undue delay. This is the kind of bill on the rights of labour we should be having before this House, rather than the one we have.", "Current provisions are wholly inadequate to prevent employers’ discrimination against employees for union activities. The discharged employee is the injured party and the onus should be on the employer to show that the employer’s action was proper in the discharge -- not the way it works now, which is the other way around.", "Evidence of 50 per cent of the membership should be sufficient for automatic certification, and since the union is required to represent all members at the bargaining table, and because it must represent them all fairly and can be charged with not representing them properly if it doesn’t, certification should carry with it the automatic right to a dues check-off." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Perhaps the hon. member has reached his time limit." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bounsall", "text": [ "That’s the type of legislation which would be useful in this House, Mr. Speaker.", "Just let me end up by saying this. There’s so much that isn’t covered in this bill that would be of use to labour in this province. The whole flavour of this bill is so discriminatory against labour that this bill in itself should ensure permanent relegation to the backbench forever, if there was any doubt about that, for the member for Scarborough Centre." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Algoma." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Gilbertson (Algoma)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I’d like to participate in this discussion on Bill 15, the private member’s bill introduced by the member for Scarborough Centre. Many of the members will probably wonder, “What’s this back-bencher from Algoma going to say about it?”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gisborn", "text": [ "The member is so right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "We’re waiting with bated breath." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. A. Renwick (Riverdale)", "text": [ "The member for Algoma and the member for Welland (Mr. Morningstar) we think of as front-benchers." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "You never know. That’s right; I shouldn’t say “that back-bencher” any more because I am in the front bench." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "That’s right. The member has graduated." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "And he’s on the far left too." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "And he is at the far left." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "Say, that’s true isn’t it, eh? Then it’s very appropriate that I participate in this particular debate." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "As long as the member doesn’t agree wholeheartedly with the bill." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "I’m not that familiar with it but I’ve looked over parts of it. I might say that as an employer, although I’ve had men working for me for perhaps 25 years, and all the government departments know it -- Workmen’s Compensation, the tax department and everybody; they come around and they assess, they come and audit your books from time to time -- I’ve always had a very legitimate operation and I’ve always had, I would say, reasonably good relations with my employees. I never had any occasion where a union came along to try to get my men to --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Disrupt the small happy family that the member has." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "-- organize and disrupt the small happy family. But I think there is room for this type of legislation that the hon. member for Scarborough Centre is introducing." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "The member even thinks there may be room for trade unions." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "As I understand it, it’s very seldom that a private member’s bill ever becomes legislation." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Thank God about this one." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "I take it that some of the opposition members are not wholly in favour of this particular bill. I wonder if there’s any part of it that they feel is all right. I’m sure that the reason the member felt the need to introduce a bill like this is for the simple reason -- I can give the members a few reasons." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. Sargent (Grey-Bruce)", "text": [ "Is the member for Algoma in labour?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "“Contractors Cheated Men of $3,000 a Week, Probe Told.” This is from the Toronto Star. Then there are others. Here’s a gentleman -- perhaps most of the members know him better than I do -- by the name of Edward Thompson. He said: “I couldn’t put up with that sort of thing.” He speaks or kangaroo courts and all that. He just gave up. He just couldn’t put up with all that.", "Another one here -- let’s see this one -- “Lath Contractor Appears In Court On Perjury Charges.”", "I’m not reading off all this because I’m against unions, sir. I think unions are something which is needed and most of them are very legitimate and do a good job, but I’m sure the purpose of introducing this bill is on account of those which do not perform well. All this proves it. Of course, one can’t believe everything one reads in the news media but at least these are headlines here -- “Lath Contractor Appears In Court on Perjury Charges.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. E. Stokes (Thunder Bay)", "text": [ "Does the member believe that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "I’ll let the member be judge of this and whether or not he believes it. “Unionist Says He Tried To Pay For Gift Car.” All these things are what I call skulduggery, which goes on within the bad unions. “Two Builders Deny Awarding Contracts In Return For Cash.” These are some of the reasons for the member for Scarborough Centre implementing this bill.", "Here is another one. This is the Toronto Star, Nov. 7, 1973: “Probe Witness Says He Cannot Recall $1,000 Gift To Wife.” Things like that no doubt induced this member to --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bounsall", "text": [ "Is the member against giving gifts to wives?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "No, I don’t think any of us are, if it is done in the proper manner." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "My wife wouldn’t recall it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "Nov. 1, 1973: “Pile Association Director Says Money Was Goodwill.” All these things --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. P. Morningstar (Welland)", "text": [ "Goodwill?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "-- just don’t smell right for some reason." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Has Judge Waisberg’s report come in yet? Has the member seen it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "October, 1973, “Builder Says He Bribed Union Men To Get Jobs.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Young", "text": [ "Who was doing the bribing here?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "It says “Builder Says He Bribed Union Men.” The member can read the article if he wants." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Young", "text": [ "Was it the union or the employer?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Morningstar", "text": [ "Let him read it after." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Young", "text": [ "Who was doing the bribing?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "It says here “Builder Says He Bribed Union Men To Get Jobs.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Young", "text": [ "Was it the union or the employer?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Who was doing the bribing?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Young", "text": [ "Who was doing the bribing?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "Here’s another one: “Police Hold Hammer To My Head.” This is Oct. 18, 1973. “Family Terrorized, Tearful Unionist Tells Building Probe.” “Builders Say They Gave $1,000 Each To Unionists”. Builders -- it probably didn’t give the names here; these are excerpts from the Toronto Star." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "Who was taking the bribe?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Young", "text": [ "Who was giving the bribe?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bounsall", "text": [ "One can’t trust anyone." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Young", "text": [ "Is the member saying that the legislation should be to curb the builders here?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "“Builder Justifies Union Costs In $500,000 Contract”. “Hired By Union, As Bodyguard, Ex-fighter Says.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bounsall", "text": [ "Those builders intimidate them as well as bribe them." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "These are the bad ones. “Contractor Says Union Payoff Went Astray.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bounsall", "text": [ "They can’t even find the right address, those builders." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "“His Family Terrorized, Unionist Tells Inquiry.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "Is the member’s time up?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Time, time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "No, the member has about two minutes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Young", "text": [ "Let him keep going; he is doing a good job." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I think in looking over this bill I would have to say that --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "Has he read it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "-- if I didn’t endorse it fully I’m certainly in favour of a lot of things in it. I think they are good and I want to compliment the member for Scarborough Centre for his efforts in implementing this bill and bringing it before the House." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Young", "text": [ "He is gone." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Rainy River." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "I’m sorry to wake the member up. Mr. Speaker, in rising to speak on this bill I do so as the only Liberal-Labour member of the Ontario Legislature. Of course, I am personally, vitally interested in matters relating to labour.", "I’d like to commend the member who has introduced this bill, in a way. It’s one of his more lucid and rational attempts at a private member’s bill. I think that I can agree with the principle that he was trying to get at, and that is that there should be public disclosure of matters affecting the trusteeship of the money that the unions hold in trust for their union members and that the various other business dealings of the unions should be available.", "I say that, Mr. Speaker, because I have had some personal experience in this line, in that I have had union members come to me and ask if I could find out about certain transactions that had taken place within their union, the circumstances surrounding which they had not been able to find out on their own. So I can understand and I approve of the principle of the bill.", "However, it seems to me, Mr. Speaker, that the member, in eulogizing his efforts in this regard, told us at some length about the great concern that the present government of the province has concerning the labouring person, and I can hardly agree with that statement. If it is so concerned, then the government itself, through the Minister of Labour, should bring in legislation. I would suggest, as my colleague from Welland South has already done, that it be based perhaps on the bill that was presented in the American Congress in regard to this matter, a bill that protected not only the rights of the working man, but also the rights of the public and also the rights of management.", "So it seems to me odd that the member would go on at great length when his government, or the government of which he is a member, is not prepared to introduce such legislation. I would suggest that higher on the list of priorities, Mr. Speaker, should be matters relating to ex-parte injunctions and matters dealing with picket lines and international and Canadian unionism. This is important --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "The member’s party is in favour of Canadian unionism?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "Pardon me?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "The member is asking for it -- his party and Canadian unionism? Go ahead." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "He says the member for Rainy River is fighting against Canadian unionism." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "No, I am not fighting. I am speaking to the Speaker; he at least can understand me. Sorry, I don’t --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. A. Grossman (Provincial Secretary for Resources Development)", "text": [ "At least he has to pretend he does." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "That’s right; but at least he doesn’t interrupt me with ridiculous statements." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "It is not a matter of interrupting --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "In any case, Mr. Speaker, there are matters, I think, that are very pressing, that this government should bring in in regard to labour relations in the Province of Ontario. One of the things, quite frankly, Mr. Speaker, that appealed to me was the call in the bill for secret ballots.", "I have been involved in a number of strikes -- wildcat and otherwise -- and I have been in union meetings where I have seen the kind of pressure that is put on the individual union member when it comes to a vote on whether to go back to work or not and when a secret ballot is not held. I would agree with the member for Windsor West when he says that most of these matters are well handled by the unions. But there is the odd one, and there are always some bad apples in the barrel who are slightly less than taken with the democratic approach, and subsequently the rights of the individual worker are trampled on. So there is need for some kind of legislation along these lines.", "Mr. Speaker, I will wind up because I know there are others who want to participate in the debate, and say that I can approve of the principle of the bill. I don’t agree with the entire bill but I think it is an important matter and it should have been brought to the attention of the chamber. I would hope to see legislation dealing with matters raised in this bill. And as well, the legislation to ban ex-parte injunctions to regulate more closely the activities on picket lines -- and other matters that are perhaps as oppressing in regard to labour relations in the province." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gisborn", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I want to make it very clear that I wouldn’t support such a bill as this one is written under any circumstances. The insider provisions and impositions in this bill are more iniquitous than anything I have ever heard of, either in terms of the stock exchange or any kind of legislation that tends to keep the finger on people who have a responsible position.", "You know, we even talk about the associate, his spouse, his son-in-law, his son, the daughter and his connections with the trade union movement through the whole insider provision.", "There are some striking clauses in the bill, and of course we can’t deal with them section by section because we are supposed to be dealing with the principle of the bill; but it’s a long bill and has a lot of very pertinent clauses in it. They are the important sections of this kind of a document.", "The originator of the bill says on page 2 -- and I guess it’s in the interpretations, in the last section:", "“Trade union means an organization of employees formed for purposes that include the regulation of relations between employees and employers.”", "Well, that kind of an interpretation says a lot to me, because the trade union movement in my history includes reading and participating in the introduction of the Ontario provincial government’s Labour Relations Act from 1944, which was just that kind of a bill to provide for the regulations of procedures between unions and employers.", "But the unions accepted it reluctantly because of the war issue and the coming into Canada of the industrial unions. They said yes, they would accept that kind of an Act, which did lay out a method of procedure, certain terms of collective bargaining, conciliation and provisions for arbitration, and so on. That was a bill imposed upon the trade union movement because they had no Act when they really got their foothold. They got it through sheer slugging, wanting to improve their benefits and their conditions across the province.", "And in saying that, I agree with a lot of the things that are the concerns of the member for Scarborough Centre and which he has presented. But this is not the solution to some of the concern in the unions today; that is, the bad parts of some of the unions. But we must remember that the bad things that are happening in unions today affect only a fraction of one per cent of membership.", "I think we need a publicity programme. If the member for Welland has that kind of a problem in Welland, he should speak out and go to the public. Come to the Minister of Labour with the kinds of problems we find and get him to do the job.", "When you read the whole bill and get to the end, it makes me think that the author has plagiarized the thoughts and the writings of the John Birch Society and William Buckley, all at one time, and certainly we can’t have any part of that.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gisborn", "text": [ "I’ll bet you Senator Ray Lawson would just love to have this bill in front of him to send back to some of his colleagues in the Teamsters’ Union. But I don’t know what the thinking was as you go through the bill. It just doesn’t add up to any kind of sense at all. The other members have expressed what should be in a bill of rights for labour, and we have presented it.", "The concerns are well taken but surely the member could have done better than that? I hope that sometime other spokesmen for the government will inform this party that this kind of legislation is not part of the thinking of the Conservative Party because we will want to know before the next election, as we will about two or three other bills the member has brought in which are very useful to the opposition and which are just as iniquitous as this bill is as far as the unions are concerned." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "The NDP pays the piper.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "This completes the private members’ hour. I believe it is the intention to sit through the supper hour.", "The hon. member for Huron is next." ] } ]	April 8, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-08/hansard
THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (CONCLUDED)	[ { "speaker": "Mr. J. Riddell (Huron)", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I might say I am pleased to have the opportunity to comment on the Speech from the Throne but before doing so I would like to echo the sentiments of previous speakers in welcoming you back after your brief illness and to say how pleased we are to see you resume your responsibilities as Speaker of the House. We trust you will continue to conduct the business of the House in a fair and orderly manner and that in maintaining order you will use the services of the Sergeant-at-Arms as sparingly as possible." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. Sargent (Grey-Bruce)", "text": [ "Don’t forget that, in the gallery." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Riddell", "text": [ "The reason I say this, Mr. Speaker, is that I was deeply annoyed when I entered the House the other day and while in the process of directing my wife to her seat in the section here under the Speaker’s gallery I was confronted by the Sergeant and told to take a seat immediately or leave the House." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Who said that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman (Windsor-Walkerville)", "text": [ "The Gestapo." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Riddell", "text": [ "I am sure the Sergeant thought he was talking to a visitor, Mr. Speaker, which added insult to injury for I pride myself on having a relatively good attendance record in the House. Having occupied my seat for over a year now, I would think that the Sergeant would surely recognize a familiar face." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "If I may say to the hon. member I observed the incident and I think he will agree that I did apologize on behalf of the Sergeant-at-Arms." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Riddell", "text": [ "I accepted those apologies, sir, I am coming to that. I would suggest Mr. Speaker, that you request the Sergeant to relax his rigidity of composure and take the time at his disposal to look around him occasionally if for no other reason than to try to identify the members of the Legislature. However, Mr. Speaker, I am pleased that you immediately recognized the folly of the Sergeant. You expressed your apologies and I trust you have cautioned the Sergeant against further activities in this regard.", "Mr. Speaker, I mentioned that I have completed one year of service as a member of the Ontario Legislature." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "A good year." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Riddell", "text": [ "Correspondingly, I have had a year to observe the functioning of government which to me has been an invaluable experience and quite gratifying but certainly not without its many frustrations. Ignorance is bliss, so the saying goes, and I suppose I was much more content with our system of government as an outsider looking in than I am as one who has had a chance to observe government in action from the inside.", "I could elaborate on the many follies and inefficiencies of the present government as I see them but I think these have been adequately reported to the public through the news media, particularly within the last year or two. I do not wish to dwell on this matter.", "However, I would like to comment on one routine in the House which I personally believe should be changed. In my opinion, Mr. Speaker, the time wasted by cabinet ministers during each day’s question and answer period in answering previous days’ questions is completely inexcusable. The ministers very cunningly give nothing short of ministerial statements in answering questions from the previous day or the previous week, knowing full well they use up time which could be better spent for further questioning by members in the interest of urgent public concern.", "I would like to recommend, Mr. Speaker, that answers to previous days’ questions precede the daily question and answer period but are not included in the time allotment for this particular order of business." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "Good idea." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Has the House leader (Mr. Winkler) got this?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Riddell", "text": [ "If the cabinet ministers are fulfilling their responsibilities they should be able to field the questions with some degree of knowledge at the time or relinquish their positions to someone who can.", "Reflecting on my maiden speech of last spring, I predicted that many government members would be thinking seriously of relinquishing their positions in government because of the government’s loss of credibility under the leadership of the Premier (Mr. Davis). I firmly believe that my predictions are bearing fruit. The recent cabinet shuffle, without a doubt, has caused dissensions in the ranks. We see the Conservative caucus losing its solidarity. We read in here of government members’ intentions to retire at the end of this session.", "I am not suggesting, Mr. Speaker, that this loss will present serious problems, but I will say I was disappointed to learn that the Minister of Agriculture and Food (Mr. Stewart) is yearning to make his departure from public life. I say I am disappointed, Mr. Speaker, for I personally believe that the Minister of Agriculture and Food has served his portfolio well, and he will be missed by the government as one of the more capable ministers, as a knowledgeable agriculturalist and as a hard core politician. Apart from my disappointment in seeing the portfolio vacated, I am equally alarmed as to the affect it might have on the agricultural industry in Ontario. I cannot see a suitable replacement for the Minister of Agriculture and Food under our present government structure, as both ability and experience in this most important industry are lacking within the Conservative caucus." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "They have somebody lined up." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Riddell", "text": [ "However, Mr. Speaker, I am sure the people of Ontario will take this matter in hand during the next election, recognizing the great potential of the hon. member for Huron-Bruce (Mr. Gaunt), who has been involved in agriculture all his life and who has been very effective as the agricultural critic for the Liberal caucus." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "So has the member for Huron." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Riddell", "text": [ "Speaking of the hon. member for Huron-Bruce, I listened carefully to his remarks during the debate on the Throne Speech and I would heartily endorse the criticism that he levelled at Ontario Hydro in its dealings with the land owners of land to be acquired for the proposed power corridor from Douglas Point to Bradley junction and thence to Georgetown and Seaforth.", "I am equally concerned about the nuclear expansion programme announced by Ontario Hydro, and needless to say my concern is shared by many people in the Huron riding and more particularly by a group of citizens who formed an organization known as “Cantdu” which was established to investigate the potential danger of nuclear energy which Ontario Hydro is reluctant to reveal to the public.", "Mr. Speaker, I will be commenting on the findings of this organization and I will be using direct quotes from the reports which have been written in an attempt to point out the potential dangers of further nuclear expansion at this time. While we are all aware of our energy needs and the desire of Ontario toward independence in energy production, I am sure we would all agree that much more needs to be known about the potential hazards of this source of energy and more research needs to be done on alternate sources of energy before the nuclear programme is accelerated. There remain too many uncertainties in the nuclear programme. Arguments advanced in defence of nuclear power are short-sighted and inconclusive, and reliance on nuclear power now will keep us from really solving our energy problems.", "One outstanding uncertainty is the storage of atomic waste. Those working in atomic energy and a few informed laymen know and admit that we are storing plutonium waste that will remain radioactive for generations in storage facilities that will be too long outlived by the plutonium. Proponents claim the storage programme is reasonable because it is managed and as long as it is managed it is safe. Environmentalists believe that because the storage programme must be managed, and managed by people yet unborn in a society which may be vastly different from ours, it is clearly unsafe. As long as the nuclear power programme necessarily commits the management of atomic waste to not only our generation but also to future generations, who are consulted on neither the ways we produce our energy nor on the ways we use it, the storage problem is clearly unsolved.", "The claim that more is known about nuclear power than about most of society’s previous energy ventures is misleading. Studies of projected safety are contradictory, with opponents of nuclear power crying, “Unsafe”; and proponents crying, “The cleanest thing yet.” In any case, that safety can only be projected. We do not have sufficient history in nuclear power production to make real conclusions on safety. We have not been in the business long enough, and although our knowledge of the atom and its potential and effects has exploded in relatively recent years, science is still exploring the effects of radiation.", "To quote Dr. Schumacher in his Desvoeux memorial lecture in England in 1967:", "“Of all the changes introduced by man into the household of nature, large-scale nuclear fission is undoubtedly the most dangerous and profound. As a result, ionizing radiation has become the most serious agent of pollution of the environment and the greatest threat to man’s survival on earth.”", "There has been much learned about radiation in relatively recent years. Scientists know that low-level radioactive materials are found in varying quantities in all natural environments.", "A very definite correlation has been established between the incidence of such diseases as leukaemia, cancer, etc., and the level of natural radiation to which the inhabitants of an area are habitually exposed. These studies established that naturally occurring ionizing radiation though unavoidable, is harmful.", "Radioactive materials are also artificially produced. A nuclear reactor produces about 100 tons of various types of radioactive isotopes a year. About one per cent of these are released and over 99 per cent are stored. During its operation, the reactor continually releases into the environment small, but nonetheless significant quantities of radioactive products. These are released through ventilation stacks, cooling fluids and other systems.", "It appears to be technically impractical and certainly uneconomical to eliminate the escape of a very small fraction of the total radioactive output of the reactor. The policy has been to set up permissible levels of radioactive pollution. These are usually compared to natural background radiation, the implication being that what is natural therefore must be safe or harmless.", "Atomic Energy of Canada’s claim that present releases of radioactive material into the environment do not exceed one per cent of the permissible level, should be considered in conjunction with another prediction made by them that by the year 2000 the installed and operating nuclear generating capacity will have increased by a thousand-fold over the 1970 capacity. An even greater expansion is predicted in the United States.", "Considerable increases in the release of radioactive materials may also be expected in such fields as medicine, industry, research, etc., not to mention war weapons testing and the increasing probability of nuclear accidents.", "Perhaps it would be worth considering some of the radioactive pollutants at this time. Tritium 2 is a radioactive isotope of hydrogen with a half-life of 12 years. It is briefly described here as an example of a new man-made, odourless, invisible poison released into the environment in significant quantities by reactors, both in their vented gases and coolants.", "In the CANDU heavy water reactor the output of this pollutant is expected to increase tenfold as the reactor matures, thus tritium releases monitored at Pickering and publicized are obviously misleading, despite the fact that officials admit that present re- leases of tritium are a little high and the matter is being given attention.", "The tritium molecule is so small that it will readily diffuse through solid barriers of aluminum and stainless steel. The problems of storing and containing this toxic and very soluble gas are not difficult to appreciate.", "Each nuclear reactor must also dispose of over 100 cubic yards of radioactive garbage each year, such as contaminated paper, piping, failed components, and especially spent ion exchange columns, the devices that attempt to remove contamination from gases and fluids to be returned to the environment. This material is ultimately buried in disposables’ areas set aside for this purpose.", "The vast bulk of the radioactive materials produced by a reactor remains in the form of spent fuel. As it leaves the reactor, this spent fuel is highly radioactive and very hot. Some of the fission products it contains include caesium 137, strontium 90, plutonium 239, which have half-lives of 30.2, 28.9 and 24,400 years respectively. This means the first two will take approximately 1,000 years to decay to a point where they will no longer have to be isolated. The plutonium 239 will take at least 800,000 years to return to the radioactive level of raw uranium. After 300 years the spent fuel is still generating heat.", "The amounts of radioactive waste further magnify the problem. As previously mentioned, Atomic Energy of Canada predicts that by the year 2000, total nuclear generating capacity will be 1,000 times that of 1970 and will have produced in excess of 100,000 tons of spent fuel. When we stop to analyse the situation we find the waste will have to be moved continually as storage facilities wear out, for at least 800,000 years. Atomic Energy of Canada, does not consider permanent disposal acceptable but is leaving to future generations the burden of continual monitoring and transfer of deadly radioactive materials.", "Apparently Atomic Energy of Canada considers this to be an acceptable solution to the waste problem but it is really an act of deferring responsibility and determining that acceptability by future generations will naturally follow.", "A second fallacy is the assumption of stable social and geological conditions over the next one million years. While all the electrical generating facilities produce large quantities of unusable waste heat, nuclear power plants produce from 50 to 60 per cent more than fossil-fuelled power stations of equal electrical output. Only some 29 per cent of the vast quantities of heat generated by the reactor can economically be converted into electrical energy. The rest is released into nearby bodies of water in the form of warmed cooling water.", "The Pickering nuclear power plant with an output of 2,160 million watts returns to the environment the equivalent of 6,480 million watts of energy in the form of heat, mostly in the cooling water. Using the factor watts times Btu per hour, this quantity of wasted energy would be equivalent to over 22,000 Btu per hour or sufficient heat to raise the temperature of over 14.5 million gal. of water from 60 degrees Fahrenheit to boiling point each hour.", "With present serious energy shortages, the dumping of this vast amount of heat to the obvious detriment of the environment can only be described as a major defeat of modem technology. If calculations such as these are superimposed on projected expansions of nuclear power plants along both the United States and Canadian shores of the Great Lakes system, significant changes in the temperatures of these lakes are inevitable. Add to this the probable increase in nutrients from various sources and we may expect to see some profound changes in the ecology of the upper lakes.", "Mr. Speaker, I can anticipate the question by those proponents of nuclear energy -- namely, what alternatives do I propose to replace nuclear energy? In answer to this question I may say that in the years prior to 1973 the headlong rush to keep pace with increasing energy demands was an elementary fact of pouring more fuel or more electricity into the multitude of existing industries, businesses and homes.", "Suddenly, a crunch occurred. Hitherto reliable and inexhaustible supplies of fossil fuel were in critically short supply. The search for alternatives has been intensified and it has taken two basic directions. The foremost of these has been the spontaneous expansion of nuclear power developments.", "Throughout the western world nation after nation plunged forward on the premise that nuclear power was the answer. Unlike Sweden, which in 1973 curtailed its nuclear plants in the light of new information, Canada remains among those countries providing economic answers to the energy question in terms of nuclear power.", "The second search is played down and often belittled, yet its ultimate results will be far more dramatic and conclusively more infinite in scope. The alternatives in this lesser research receive little or any government support. Public funds have not been made available to assist the pioneers in the search for clean energy sources.", "Such alternatives include solar energy, wind energy, methane from organic waste, hydro-gen as a primary fuel, geo-thermal power, sea-thermal power, electronic power boosters, tidal power and the biosphere concept.", "Not only is their government support minimal, but politicians have refused to give serious consideration to the many feasibility studies which indicate the economic viability of such power systems. Solar energy as a source for man’s power needs has generally been ridiculed. The Hansard from Queen’s Park will verify the non-answers of government ministers when questioned in these matters. Yet it is generally agreed that the earth intercepts 173 to the power of 15 watts of thermal power from the sun every 24 hours. This figure represents 100,000 times more than the entire world’s present electrical power capacity.", "It has further been stated that the average daily amount of solar energy that falls on Lake Erie exceeds the total consumption figure for our neighbour the United States from all energy sources combined during the same time period. The astounding point to be made is that this energy is not only clean but in rather weighty economic terms it is free. A sampling of examples in which the application of solar energy is the key to solution of energy problems would include such items as heat concentration, direct conversion and the biosphere concept. Sunlight in the form of solar heat is collected, used to boil water or some other liquid, which in turn is used in the conventional manner to produce electricity.", "The Meinel plan at the University of Arizona is the most technically advanced system in North America at this time. Solar farms are envisioned for the southwestern deserts that will collect heat, generate steam and operate electrical turbines. By using solid state electronics a Meinel associate. Dr. B. O. Seraphin, also of the University of Arizona, has developed interference stacks as heat concentrators, which will not only reduce the ultimate size of such solar farm collectors, but also bring such proposal within the realm of the present economic criteria for developing such proposals.", "The second proposal for using solar power is more versatile and would provide power where it is needed, thus eliminating costly and offensive powerline systems. The Arthur D. Little Co., a research firm in Massachusetts has proposed space screens for the direct conversion of sunlight into electricity, coupled with a laser projection system to beam power directly to the location of need, to the industrial hearts in the northeast of this continent.", "The sun can also be used as a power source on an independent household basis. In some instances, the roof becomes a solar collector and supplies an individual home with energy needs. Coupled with a storage system, such independent systems are now in use in the United States.", "The biosphere is an integrated approach. It combines a living area, a greenhouse, a solar heater and a solar still. Proponents claim several power functions can be operated independently from any public utility at a lower cost than conventional sources for heat, water and waste disposal.", "Systems to harness the wind have been operating on a small scale for many years. In the production of electricity conventional windmill systems producing power for independent household use have been available since 1938. Several firms presently offer such systems with capacities up to 12,000 watts. Canadian scientists have recently developed radically new concepts for wind generating systems. It is hoped to bring this approach into operation in the Canadian Arctic.", "There has been much discussion in Ontario in the last few months on the topic of producing methane gas from organic waste. The Ontario Federation of Agriculture has been urging the government of Ontario to take a serious look at the possibilities in this area. They would be well advised to direct their attention to the work of the Gobar Gas research station in India and the work of Ram Bux Singh over the last 20 years.", "The engineering firm of J. Hilbert Anderson, of Pennsylvania, has produced a system of heat difference conversion using the oceans as the power source. The system operates on the principle of heat differences between two water sources, such as the 45 deg. difference in surface Gulf Stream temperatures compared to temperatures several thousand feet below the surface. A floating power station provides the additional benefit of using waste heat to desalinate water.", "The preceding sampling of alternatives is not intended to be exhaustive. The main purpose is to demonstrate that work is progressing. Each activity, however, shares the same financial problem. Development depends entirely on funds for engineering schemes to bring existing proposals into reality. Unlike nuclear fusion, which has been much discussed but not yet invented, the second set of alternatives rests within the limits of man’s present technical knowledge. The successful development of such power projects will be difficult, however, and environmental problems with some of them would be unreasonable to deny.", "Yet the problems seem slight when compared to the unique danger and unknown implications of nuclear power. Our search for energy need not be a desperate, unthinking plunge. All that is required is the decision of government agencies to provide the much-needed funds.", "The proponents of nuclear energy, Mr. Speaker, have misled the public into believing that nuclear power is the safest and cleanest form of energy. The problem of radioactive waste and the potential hazards of such waste are completely ignored.", "At the same time that misleading information has discouraged responsible choice it has encouraged the demand. If an energy source is widely broadcast as safe and if it is relatively inconvenient and seen as unnecessary to obtain in-depth information, why not continue unquestionably to demand the energy? Why not go along with an acceleration of the demand, a doubling every 10 years? If it is there and if it is clean, why not use it?", "In spite of reference lately, to using energy wisely, the very use of the term “demand” encourages the demand itself; or at least discourages critical evaluation of demand priorities. By calling current and predicted uses of electricity “demands,” we are encouraged in seeing our need for electricity not as something society is responsible for or has any measure of control over, but as something divorced from us that is absolute and not relative to other considerations.", "We nourish an atmosphere that is afraid to look at whether the sources are really safe and that is afraid to take time to explore safer alternatives; and we are apt then to allow actions to be taken to meet that demand which would seem preposterous to a more objective observer. We are all participants in our culture and co-operate in the use and misuse of energy, but the public cannot be held responsible for nuclear power because the public has not been allowed really to examine and respond to the issues.", "The economics of nuclear power can also be questioned, Mr. Speaker. Because of the very large but obscure investment of both federal and provincial government funds, the comparison of costs between nuclear and fossil-powered generating plants can be quite misleading. The much higher capital investment of a nuclear station has to be regarded as a total write-off at the end of 30 years, the estimated life of the reactor. Due to radioactive contamination, it is improbable that much of value will be economically recycled.", "Loss of land and caretaking of abandoned nuclear power stations should be charged against their productive lives. On-site generating costs constitute only a small fraction of the cost of electrical energy delivered to the consumer. Because of the policy of locating nuclear power stations at points remote from the areas of major consumption, transmission costs will be high. Power corridors connecting nuclear generating stations to the grid system and modifications of the grid to carry the extra load should be charged to nuclear power.", "I fail to understand, Mr. Speaker, the policy of locating nuclear power stations at points remote from the area of major consumption, for such plants could logically be established in areas of the Canadian shield where water is plentiful and where land does not lend itself to agricultural production. Suitable sites in the Canadian shield are also much closer to the large urban centres such as Toronto than is Douglas Point.", "There is talk about the construction of another nuclear plant in Huron county south of Goderich where over 80 per cent of the land is prime agricultural land. Such a plant would be situated in the heart of cash-crop country. I think you can appreciate, Mr. Speaker, that such crops as white beans are subject to a disease known as bronzing on which the pollutants in the atmosphere have a direct bearing." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "That’s right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Riddell", "text": [ "Not only will the nuclear station in the power corridors connecting this station to the grid system use up good agricultural land, but the waste products of energy production will interfere with crop production and it can only lead to more serious food shortages and higher costs to the consumer.", "We can’t afford to lose another acre of prime agricultural land. How completely irresponsible it is to sacrifice essential energy from food to nuclear energy which could well prove to be the greatest threat to man’s survival on earth.", "I would like to turn briefly to another matter, Mr. Speaker, and by way of introduction I would like to read part of an editorial which appeared recently in the London Free Press. The editorial was entitled:", "“METRO -- ONTARIO’S WELFARE CASE", "“Taxpayers elsewhere in Ontario should flinch whenever they look at Metro Toronto. That is their money disappearing into Metro’s maw.", "“By its very size and the nature of urban problems, Metro commands the greatest share of provincial funds, but how much is enough? Or to put it another way, how much is disproportionately at the expense of the rest of the province?", "“To what degree, for example, should taxpayers outside Metro be responsible for cushioning Metro’s welfare families from high shelter costs by subsidizing rents paid to private landlords? Rents in Metro are doubtless the highest in the province and some allowance should be made for regional variations in living costs, but there should be a uniform policy stressing the use of public housing, not an ad hoc system of providing provincial assistance to the urban community raising the most clamour and thereby monopolizing provincial attention.", "“It invariably seems a lot easier for Metro Toronto to gain provincial sympathy than for a small community like Centralia or Clinton, say, to provoke provincial response to a social problem such as a factory closing whose local impact is equally severe.”", "That’s the end of the article.", "I would like to pause here for a minute, Mr. Speaker, and to reflect on the government’s complete irresponsibility and insensitivity in the past year to two problems which had very serious social implications.", "The only packing plant which existed between Kitchener and Windsor, the heart of concentrated livestock production, went bankrupt because of internal family-management problems resulting in financial difficulties which could not be considered exorbitant. The Ontario government, through the ODC programme, could have helped interested concerns to reactivate the plant in the interest of the agricultural industry in southwestern Ontario but chose rather to turn a deaf ear to the pleas and calls of those who expressed their concern.", "I was somewhat surprised at the attitude of the government in this matter, considering that Middlesex county both north and south, is represented by Conservative members, as is the city of London.", "Failure by the government to assist the packing plant in reactivating its operation has resulted in the loss of another buyer of agricultural produce and a supplier of consumer food.", "Hog and beef producers rely on open competition for the sale of their livestock, and the Coleman Packing Co. had a good reputation for dealing fairly with the farmers and doing an excellent job of processing the meat to the satisfaction of the consumer.", "A similar situation, Mr. Speaker, but one that is closer to home and one in which I became directly involved was the closing of the Hall Lamp Co. at Huron Park. Huron Park was taken over by the Ontario Development Corp. after the air force base was phased out. The houses on the base were rented and industry was encouraged through both forgivable and unforgivable loans to make use of the existing buildings. Hall Lamp was a subsidiary of an American concern but it was one part of the overall business that continued to show a net profit each year. Needless to say, the profits were used for business ventures in the United States by the American owners, but the Hall Lamp Co. did provide jobs for 400 people, most of whom resided in Huron county.", "The business went into receivership because of the non-profitable business ventures in the United States and then later went into trusteeship. The former managerial staff of Hall Lamp was prepared to purchase the assets from Hall Lamp and to continue its operations, provided it received assistance from the Ontario Development Corp. as well as from other lending agencies.", "We arranged a meeting with the Minister of Labour (Mr. Guindon) and the Minister of Industry and Tourism (Mr. Bennett) to discuss the financial obligations of the former company to its employees, and to seek out support from the Ontario Development Corp, for the purchase of the assets and the operation of the plant divorced of any American interest. The Minister of Industry and Tour- ism was supposedly occupied with promoting Canadian sales abroad so we were forced to discuss the matter with the managing director of ODC, Mr. Etchen.", "Mr. Etchen was good enough to send two of his staff to Huron Park to work with the former managerial staff of Hall Lamp in preparing a bid which would be reasonable to submit to the receiver. Everything seemed to be moving along quite nicely, but for some reason, at the last minute, the Ontario Development Corp. withdrew its support and, as a result, the plant ceased to function. The majority of the former employees are still without work.", "The business is now in trusteeship. When the trustee gets possession of the assets from the receiver he will advertise for bids. Failing the acceptance of a bid for the assets as a whole, he will advertise for bids partial in an attempt to sell the business in part. The last resort will be the selling of the assets by auction.", "Mr. Speaker, it is my contention that once again the Ontario government could have come to the rescue and saved an industry which was so important in this part of Ontario, having such limited industrial development. There are problems outside of Toronto, Mr. Speaker, that require the Ontario government’s consideration. It’s time the Ontario government realized that it is not the duty of the rest of the province to cater inexhaustibly to Metro’s wishes.", "I might just say here, Mr. Speaker, that the closing of Hall Lamp jeopardized the continued operations of many satellite companies operating in the area. Once again, the government seems insensitive to the needs of small business.", "Another matter which gravely concerns the people in southwestern Ontario is the continued centralizing tendencies of the Ontario government. The government’s attempt at achieving economies of scale by centralizing municipal decisions has backfired, and the dramatic increases in regional government costs are now adding to the inflationary pressure in our economy. The cost of services assumed by regional municipalities has increased from 36 per cent in some municipalities to 120 per cent in others.", "Residents in some regional municipalities are faced this year with tax increases of 500 per cent -- or more specifically a man who paid municipal taxes of $106 last year will pay $496 on the same property this year. Suffice to say at this time, Mr. Speaker, that the provincial government’s programme of imposing regional government throughout Ontario must be stopped.", "To add fuel to the fire, the Premier’s announcement on Feb. 14, 1974, of a 12-member Ontario Hydro board means that the government, in effect, is taking over the assets of a system it does not own. Really, what it boils down to is that the Ontario government is on the verge of administrating", "$800,000 right out of existence. The 12 members of the Ontario Hydro board include only two representatives of the Ontario Municipal Electric Association. The government fails to recollect that municipalities founded the system more than 60 years ago, and through their electric commissions have built an investment in it worth about $800 million. The Ontario Municipal Electric Association represents more than two million electricity consumers, and its member commissions own about 70 per cent of the electrical supply system.", "The government’s proposal of restructuring, whether it be municipalities or public utilities, should be only for the purpose of making municipalities stronger and more meaningful, and to transfer responsibilities from Queen’s Park to the municipalities and not from the municipalities to Queen’s Park.", "Local public utility commissions are concerned about the report of the government committee on restructuring of public utilities in Ontario, and their main concern is the danger of losing local autonomy. Many local utilities are completely self-sufficient and do not contract work to private companies or to Ontario Hydro. They do, however, perform work for utilities in adjoining municipalities when requested to do so.", "Local utilities are suggesting that a number of items be considered when rationalization studies are being taken into account. Rationalization of utilities should only be considered after studies are completed that lead to the reorganization of municipalities in the counties or regions considering restructuring. This action will allow more opportunities for existing self-sustaining utilities to expand, to take the responsibilities of a restructured and a larger municipality. If a regional electrical utility is not viable, and where there exists one or more electrical utilities within areas of a region or re- structured county, local option should determine whether the existing utility or utilities will assume responsibility for electricity within the new area municipality." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. W. Hodgson (York North)", "text": [ "That’s the way it is done." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Riddell", "text": [ "A predetermined population count --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. W. Hodgson", "text": [ "What is he talking about?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Riddell", "text": [ "-- should not be a deciding factor, but the criterion should be whether an existing utility should be expanded to take care of the new area municipality. The whole concept of regionalization or restructuring is to expand the municipalities in order that they can operate more of their services on the regional or lower level. Every effort should be made to operate the distribution system as an electrical utility controlled by a commission. To eliminate utilities that could be expanded and to give the responsibility to the power district would be contrary to the whole concept of restructuring, which in our understanding is to give more authority to local government. The liaison between the utility --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. W. Hodgson", "text": [ "That is not what the member’s deputy leader says. He wants to take it away from the trustees; he wants to give it to the regional government." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Gaunt (Huron-Bruce)", "text": [ "Oh no, that’s another story." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. W. Hodgson", "text": [ "Thai’s right. He wants to take it away from the York commission so he can give it to the government." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Riddell", "text": [ "The liaison between the utility and the municipal council in most cases is quite compatible, as a public utility takes a prominent part in the community life of any municipality and is sensitive to community and municipal council’s requirements.", "When studies regarding restructuring take place, distance, as well as the weather conditions at the respected areas, should be considered. Areas in the snowbelt are often isolated by snow for periods of several hours, and in some cases for several days. During this time of adverse weather conditions, the temperatures are usually below normal and the overhead clamp is susceptible to damage. The importance of readily available service crews during these periods must be a prime consideration.", "If as a last resort a utility must be absorbed by the power district, every effort should be made to absorb the work force of the utility. The report on restructuring did not mention employees moving from a utility to Ontario Hydro. These benefits and positions should be protected in the same manner as they are for Ontario Hydro employees who move to a utility.", "I do not want to dwell on this subject any longer, Mr. Speaker, other than to say that in my opinion the municipal utilities own the electrical systems and that fair and lasting representation of municipalities on the Ontario Hydro board is essential to protect the basic rights of Ontario citizens to high-quality electricity service at a reasonable cost.", "Mr. Speaker, I have listened to a number of members debate the Speech from the Throne and criticize the government for its lack of policy to curb inflation. The high cost of food is mentioned time and time again, and inevitably the former is labelled as being the culprit." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. A. Renwick (Riverdale)", "text": [ "No." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Riddell", "text": [ "I am concerned, Mr. Speaker, about the misunderstanding between the farmer who produces our food and the consumer." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "That’s a straw man; that is not true." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Riddell", "text": [ "Many consumers believe that the cost of food has risen too quickly, and that the farmers are getting a higher than necessary share of the consumers’ dollar. Farmers, on the other hand, feel that the prices they receive for their products have not increased in proportion with the prices they must pay for the goods and services which they buy.", "Farmers need and deserve increased income. I think you will agree with me, Mr. Speaker, when I say that a thriving agricultural industry is essential to a strong and growing Canadian economy.", "The Canadian farmers are second to none in their ability to produce food of the quality and quantity desired by Canadian consumers. Farmer producers are justified in expecting a fair price for their product, and a reasonable profit from their efforts.", "Inflation seems to be a central theme in many of the debates that I have listened to in this session of the Legislature, and I would like to try to bring the whole matter of food costs into perspective.", "Food prices in Canada rose by 17 per cent in 1973, and will probably rise another 10 per cent this year. Food prices have caught up to general wage gains. The portion of disposable income Canadians spent on food, after declining for a number of years to about 18 per cent, will rise in the next two years to 20 to 21 per cent.", "Although Canadians are better off than most nations, the sharp increases threaten us all and particularly those on low and fixed incomes. On the one hand we have the poor families caught in the price spiral, but on the other hand there are those who have been beneficiaries.", "Farm incomes have risen from disastrously low levels to more reasonable ones. Wholesale prices of farm products, which dropped despite increasing costs to the farmer during 1970 and 1971, rose 23.4 per cent in the period January to July, 1973, enough to cover rising costs of 11.6 per cent and more. Farmers have improved their poor position.", "Processers and retailers who were already doing very well, that is 10.8 per cent on every dollar invested in 1970 for the food manufacturers and 11 per cent for the retailers, are for the most part making handsome profits. Average corporate profits rose 34 per cent in the first half of 1973, while the food processing companies were up 56 per cent over 1972.", "In a time of rapidly rising food prices most of us are inclined to think that someone in the industry is making extraordinary profit at the consumer’s expense. The leader of the NDP (Mr. Lewis) is inclined to blame the supermarkets, and to some extent the middleman; but I’m pleased to see that he did not levy the blame on the farmers.", "In the complex food industry it is very difficult to obtain reliable cost and profit figures. Individual variables can be so important. And if I may use an example, an efficient farmer might be able to turn a profit where a not so efficient farmer cannot. Some commodities are sold in two ways -- by spot purchase or by contract -- making it difficult to determine average prices from one week to the next. Growing seasons vary across the country, as do freight charges and distribution costs.", "Retailers’ prices are subject to the vagaries of supply and demand and to changing market strategy. Profits can turn into losses quicker than one can bat an eye. Despite these difficulties, advisers in the food industry have been able to prepare -- from the most reliable information possible -- the cost and profits involved in certain food items.", "This review of cost and profit was reported in the latest edition of Maclean’s Magazine and I believe certain figures are worth mentioning at this time.", "A typical Canadian meal was used as an example to show how the consumer’s price is derived. A food item such as peas returned the farmers a profit of two cents a pound, the processor a profit of seven cents a pound and the retailer a profit of ten cents a pound. The farmer sold the peas for six cents a pound, and the consumer pays 43 cents a pound in the supermarket.", "Milk made the farmer a profit of three cents a quart, the processor a profit of two cents a quart and the retailer lost 3.5 cents for every quart of milk sold. A pint of ice cream made from six ounces of industrial milk made the farmer a profit of two-tenths of a cent for the milk, the processor of three cents for the milk and the retailer a profit of 12.3 cents for the milk. The milk sold to make three ounces of butter made the farmer a profit of six-tenths of a cent, the processor a profit of six-tenths of a cent and the retailer had a net loss of seven-tenths of a cent when he sold the butter.", "Two pounds of potatoes made the farmer a profit of two cents, the processor a profit of two cents and the retailer a profit of 2.2 cents. The tomatoes used to make four ounces of tomato juice made the farmer a profit of 1.6 cents, the processor two cents and the retailer one-tenth of a cent. A three pound chicken made the farmer a profit of 15 cents, the processor a profit of nine cents and the retailer a profit of six cents.", "The final cost of the meal, including the items which I have just mentioned, was $3.76. It cost the farmer a total of $1.28 to produce the commodity and his share of the final profits was 24 cents. The processors’ cost was $2.63 and they made a total profit of 26 cents. The costs were highest at the retail level, $3.49, and the profits were 27 cents.", "Walter Stewart’s article on Canada Safeway Ltd. suggests that supermarket giants are running up our grocery bills, not because of any excess profits which they make but because of the marketing methods they use to lure us into their stores. While it does not appear that the retail stores are making an excessive profit, we must bear in mind that competition in the food industry has been greatly diminished as the independents have been bought out by a few large grocery chains. The cutthroat competition that supermarkets so anxiously tell us about is not likely in the long run to bring food prices down. In the shuffle for position among the food giants, the chief casualties are the independents.", "The grocery chains spend a lot of money battling each other. They do this through extensive promotions. They build more stores than they need and install fancier equipment than we want and tag on free parking, cheap credit and a host of other extras. In the end most of these campaigns tend to be self-cancelling. As soon as one chain does it another follows and no advantage accrues to anyone. Advertising by food chains and price wars are a sign of oligopoly, not competition. These rivalries result in self-cancelling advertising. The result is an exclusive emphasis on very shiny, well located, retail store premises whose costs are borne by the consumer.", "In 1962 independent stores accounted for 54.8 per cent of the market and chains for 45.2 per cent. By 1972 their positions were reversed. The chains had 54.5 per cent and the independents 45.5 per cent. The trend is continuing and before long the independents will be only a minor force in the market. If prices have come down as a result of this increase in chain dominance, word has not reached the consumers yet. The net result, Mr. Speaker, is that price wars appear to cripple the independent and transfer the cost of the campaign against them onto everyone else’s grocery bill.", "Mr. Speaker, let me give you an example of what has happened to the food processing industry over the years. Canada Safeway Ltd. is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Safeway Stores Inc. of Oakland, Calif., the second largest food retail chain in the United States. Canada Safeway was set up in 1929 in western Canada and immediately began to grow, mainly by purchasing not only other retail stores but wholesalers and food processors.", "With this running start, Safeway grew to a huge, fully-integrated grocery business with control not only over its own supermarkets but over its suppliers as well. Its wholly-owned subsidiary, Macdonald’s Consolidated, operates a wholesale grocery business, bakery, a fruit and vegetable plant, a coffee roasting factory and a jam and jelly plant. Safeway has its own canners, its own frozen food operation, its own fluid milk plant, ice cream factory, tea packing firm, cheese-cutting operation and its own beverages and egg suppliers.", "It even has a company, Wingate Equipment Lessors Ltd., which owns and leases the furniture, machinery and appliances used in Safeway stores and warehouses. Safeway’s policy has been to take control of the market, and one can assume this has led to monopoly pricing. I believe, Mr. Speaker, what it boils down to is that we need more adequate legislation in order to protect Canadian consumers against soaring food prices, which in my opinion are a direct result of the monopoly situation of a few large chain stores.", "To conclude, Mr. Speaker, I firmly believe that if there is a villain in the marketplace, then the finger must be pointed at government, and both the provincial and federal governments must share the responsibility. What effective legislation has government passed, or indeed if such legislation does exist, what action has the government taken to curtail vertical integration, which we know to be the cause and effect of monopoly pricing and consumer gouging? What steps has government taken in recent times to curtail deficit spending, which we know contributes to inflation? What programmes have government introduced to assist the small entrepreneur in either establishing a business or continuing a viable operation, which permits free and open competition to operate effectively in the marketplace?", "I will admit, Mr. Speaker, that programmes have been initiated to protect the small family farm. But government has completely lost sight of the need to protect the small family farm. This government is disillusioned in its conception that everything that is big is also good. It is time this government realized there is merit in competition, there is a place in our economy for the small businessman and there is a need in our democratic process for local autonomy.", "Mr. Speaker, much could be and has been said about other causes of inflation and about the housing crisis that looms large in Ontario at the present time. I do not intend to reiterate what already has been said about this very great problem. I do hope, however, that the views, criticisms and suggestions of my leader in his amendments to the Throne Speech, will be seriously considered by this government in its attempt to formulate policy and propose legislation which will be for the good of all people and not just for a choice few.", "Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson (Victoria-Haliburton)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, one could say, “Thank God for Maclean’s magazine” -- otherwise both opposition parties wouldn’t have any research. One can appreciate their research efforts by reading Maclean’s magazine and listen to them quoting the articles, as was done by the member who just spoke and by the member for York Centre (Mr. Deacon), because they use Maclean’s magazine extensively for the subjects of their speeches." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Riddell", "text": [ "It’s a good thing somebody does some research." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "I was also struck by the fact that the member for Downsview (Mr. Singer), in one part of his speech today, referred to his discussion with a reporter in the press gallery. He then referred to the article the reporter had written and quoted it as gospel and as substantiation of what he was saying.", "It sounds very good. But I do think there is more to the media and more to research, and there’s more to understanding some of the problems today. One of the best places to get that sort of information is by talking to the person on the street and understanding what that person is going through." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. Haggerty (Welland South)", "text": [ "Or go to the barbershop." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "Well, one can get a lot of information in the barbershop." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Is that barber still around in Lindsay." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "He could be, but perhaps he is somewhat like the NDP. I mean, the hon. member who just finished speaking was talking about a machine to make energy from the wind. Well if it runs like the official opposition party, I would hate to see how efficient it would be, because it would have very much the same amount of stops and starts --", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "-- and it would certainly not be acceptable as an alternative. The New Democratic Party, of course have great memories of those old-timers who tried to produce a perpetual motion machine. So far they have developed it very well with their hinges on their jaws -- but that’s as far as it has gone." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "That’s a joke. That’s a real joke." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "Now I would like to mention, Mr. Speaker, that in our Throne Speech there is a reference to making seat belts mandatory. I would like to say at the outset that I’m against such legislation." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Why?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "Well, I will tell the hon. member some of the reasons." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gaunt", "text": [ "Come on over here." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "I happen to be one of the few people in Ontario who had their lives saved by a hard hat -- that’s safety equipment. I happen to be one of the few members of this Legislature, I think, who had his life saved by a hardhat. I happen to be one of the few members of this Legislature who is a director of a safety association, one of the seven in Ontario, and I have devoted time to their work. I also am an honorary director of a safety association of Ontario, in recognition of some of the work I have done in safety." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Gilbertson (Algoma)", "text": [ "The member has done a good job, too." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "I have to say to the members that there is quite a difference between a hardhat or safety protection equipment, and mandatory wearing of a seatbelt by law. I have quite a few letters from people who have had their sons’ and daughters’ lives saved by not wearing a seatbelt. I have so far only two who have had their lives supposedly saved by wearing a seatbelt. My father’s life was saved by not wearing a seatbelt. My colleague from Glengarry (Mr. Villeneuve), who sits on my right, had his life saved recently by not wearing a seatbelt." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "How does the member know?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "Because he has the OPP and other people who observed the scene of the accident who are willing to swear that if he had been wearing a seatbelt he would not be here today.", "A very personal friend of mine last November lost his life by wearing a seatbelt -- in the opinion of experts and officers who came to the scene of the accident.", "So I have to say to the members that I think this is one thing that should not be mandatory in law, not only for all the reasons regarding the fact that the law can’t be enforced, and a law that can’t be enforced is a poor law. I think there are other reasons. I think that when we hear the statistics about Australia, we have to compare the Australian scene with conditions in this country -- such as the speed limits.", "We have noticed that in the United States the accident ratio has come down drastically because of the lowering of the speed limit. We have to look at that.", "There are a lot of things that I don’t think have very much merit with regard to making seatbelts mandatory, I think it is quite a different thing if one is talking about the passengers in a car, rather than the driver. I think there are two different situations here.", "I think, first of all, if one looks at many wrecks in wrecking yards, he will notice that the passenger’s head has often broken the windshield. Therefore I think there is some merit, perhaps, in a passenger in a car wearing a seatbelt. In the case of the driver, the seatbelt often locks the driver in so he can’t move to get away from the impact of the steering wheel or he can’t be thrown aside. Since he is on the side closest to the approaching car in most cases, he is going to take the full impact of the accident.", "So I think there is much to be looked at here and much assessment needed before any government considers making mandatory the wearing of seatbelts in a car by everyone in the car. I think passengers and drivers are two different kettles of fish. I think you have two different situations, Mr. Speaker, and they should be looked at carefully before such things are undertaken." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gaunt", "text": [ "Is the member going to vote against it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "Yes, I will. If the government brings it in, insists on bringing it in, I will vote against it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "What about the courts? They are taking that into account when they are awarding damages now." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "Does the member always consider that justice is levied by courts?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "No, I am asking a question, what about the courts?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "My hon. friend from Riverdale talks about the courts. I say to him, what is going to be the damage situation with regard to insurance after there is a law to wear a seatbelt and we have a person who has undergone an accident in violation of the law because he wasn’t wearing a seatbelt and lost his life? Is his insurance company going to carry that out and pay full fees? I doubt it very much. I think the lawyers will have another very lucrative base to work on." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Two things bother me. One is that the courts take into account whether the victim has been wearing a seatbelt or not, and the other is that the motor vehicle accident reports of the police force of the Metropolitan Toronto area ascertain as one of the facts in their reports whether a seatbelt was being worn." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "Yes, but I think the member also has to look at all the accident reports of the province. There are some times of the year when, if a driver drove into a ditch -- for instance now -- and the ditch was full of water and he was locked in by a seatbelt, he very likely would be drowned as a result of wearing one. If one has a situation where the front seat of one’s car is torn loose and one is dumped down into the front, underneath the steering wheel, one could lose one’s life because the car rolls on.", "There are a lot of things that I think one has to take into consideration here.", "There is no substantiation, in my opinion, for making the driver of a car wear a seatbelt; I think there is more hazard to that driver wearing a seatbelt than there is safety in his wearing one. I simply say I think there is a drastic difference here.", "However, I want to talk for a moment about Ontario’s natural resources, especially in regard to timber and trees. Northern Ontario is a very slow growth area as far as trees are concerned, and it has always seemed to me that while it is being done, there should be even more trees planted in the north and there should be more done than there is now.", "I might say that if a government or a country was thinking about a full return for the dollar, middle Ontario has a very rapid, high growth rate for trees. We have a relatively small amount of trees being planted today. I am particularly struck by this, because some articles I read recently about the United States caused me great caution and made me pause to consider the future of the forest industry in Ontario; what is it going to be 30 years from now?", "First of all, they have developed a species of tree that matures in 30 years. In 30 years they are going to have, perhaps, a very great forest resource; but at the rate Ontario is planting trees and doing forest improvement work, I doubt if in 30 years we shall have as much timber resource as we have today. Yet we’ll have more people and we’ll have more demand on that resource." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "A damning indictment of the government." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "I don’t doubt that for a minute. I think it is a damning indictment of any government which has allowed a situation like this to exist." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Thirty years of Tory rule." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "I simply say it is bad practice to not plant more trees than we cut.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. H. Worton (Wellington South)", "text": [ "Not too much order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "Especially when much of our wealth, much of our employment, much of our house building and home building -- all these things -- depend on our resources of timber in Ontario. I worry about this because I can see what’s happening.", "We do not have enough programme money for forest improvement in hardwood areas, in the hardwood band of Ontario. It will take money to thin the trees, to upgrade the trees and this sort of thing if we are going to have a hardwood forest in our future. My lady’s high heels may be passing fancy but when one realizes that most of them are made from maple today, we might not have them in existence in any quantity in a few years.", "I have two counties on whose behalf I have resisted the legislative action of this government with regard to cutting off the wolf bounty. I accepted the idea of a better predator control programme; I’m still waiting for it. Much of Ontario is still waiting for it, most especially the counties and districts surrounding Algonquin Park --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "Algoma is in the same predicament." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "-- that protected area of Ontario under the complete control and supervision of the Ministry of Natural Resources. Wildlife is not interfered with there by the hunter, by the trapper or by any individual; it is protected in many thousands of acres. Predators are also protected but many species of wildlife are in dire straits, almost disappearing from Algonquin Park. As a result the predators have moved on, they’ve moved into our area. They’ve moved on through our area into other sections of Ontario and a predator control programme which does not manage predators in connection with wildlife does tremendous harm to the future of this country.", "New Zealand exports venison and so do many other countries of the world, but they manage their predators. In the neighbouring states, hunting licences allow one to take as many as two deer and so on, because they have managed their predators. Some of the finest speckled trout fishing in the world is in Newfoundland, where they don’t have a predator on speckled trout.", "Yet it seems to me the policy of the Natural Resources people in the biology field here in Ontario is to protect the predator and destroy the game -- animal, fish what have you -- by not protecting yet by supervising the predators. It is a poor policy, I think. I have seen speckled trout lakes ruined by perch and other predators.", "I have noticed one big improvement, and it gives me a great satisfaction, and that is the increase in the price of coon fur this year. I feel that back will come some of the ducks in our area, back will come some of the loons, because these are the predators on the loon and the duck eggs in my particular section of Ontario. So the high price for that fur, I think, will have a beneficial effect on most wildlife and birds in my area.", "It will be interesting to see. It happened in the Thirties where we had a tremendous increase in the wild fowl by elimination of predators because of the high fur rates for those and the subsequent drop off.", "I would like to say a bit about uranium. The province recently announced that we are hoping to expand our uranium mines and our production. I have part of the Bancroft mining camp in my riding, that section where licences were taken away several years ago to the then Prime Minister of Canada’s riding; taken from ours and taken up there. They closed the mines in my riding by such a method.", "There is going to be an expansion of the uranium mines in Ontario. I would like to see our area thought about in this connection. I would like to suggest that the government of Ontario should be fully involved, because the idea that we would again have a mining bust and boom sort of situation, in my riding in particular, would be against my wishes. I think the Ontario government could manage the uranium mining camp and it might take into consideration the development of a mining process in connection with the province or with the federal government in co-operation." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Public ownership of the uranium industry this year is essential." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "I don’t think they have to. I think they can produce the ore and bring it to a central mining processing plant that may well be owned by the province. I think there is place for both free enterprise and the province to be involved in the common enterprise in producing uranium ore." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Not in our major source of fuel." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Hodgson", "text": [ "In my area at the moment Imperial Oil is doing a lot of prospecting for uranium. There is Faraday, which is mainly owned by American interests. There are several other very good deposits of uranium and to my way of thinking we could have a 30 or 40 year production there. But if high-grading is allowed we may have 10 years of boom and 20 or 30 years of bust again, and I don’t think that would serve anybody; because in the village of Bancroft, for instance, in the last uranium boom we had as many as three or four banks, and today we have one or two. Stores went out of business and people lost money through investments and all that sort of thing. I think that there is a better way, especially when uranium is under the control of governments and can be continued that way.", "I would like to suggest one other thing. Much of Ontario has a very high-cost education plant in existence today because of the requirements of the HS-I. It seems to me there is discussion and rumour today that we are going to start high schools on a semesters basis. If we do this nobody, but nobody, can manage the cost of education.", "Just think of a high school that has planned its teaching staff and its school rooms at the start of a school year in September, with everything going, and say 200 of your pupils take off for community college or university in December. Where does it leave you?", "Where will it leave the cost of education?", "And this is what some of the rumours are in education today. It seems to me that if we got back to a few mandatory courses, rather than some of the permissive stuff we have, it would become a lot cheaper and a better and sounder educational system in the Province of Ontario.", "Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Welland South." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. Haggerty (Welland South)", "text": [ "Let me first thank you for the many courtesies afforded to me in the Legislature. I am extremely pleased to see that you have recovered from overexposure to the workload of the last session. I know at times there were hectic moments in many of the debates of the last session. I am sure all members of the House will agree that we are extremely impressed with the manner in which you accept the daily challenge, and particularly pleased with your impartiality in this Legislature.", "I have noticed on several occasions, Mr. Speaker, that you have been annoyed by some members, perhaps under strain, who have caused disruption of the proceedings in this assembly; members who have been noisy in character. Sometimes I wish you would crack the whip and be a little more firm, particularly during the shouting match by members in the question period. And perhaps I raise this, at this time, Mr. Speaker, because many of the members of this House, particularly in the back rows, have very little opportunity afforded them to ask or raise their questions in the assembly. Sometimes they are rather important questions to the back-benchers in this assembly, and I wish perhaps more consideration could be given to some of us in the back rows.", "But above all, Mr. Speaker, I want to wish you continued good health, and hope that all members will share in your patience and respect for the important office you hold.", "I might add at this time too, Mr. Speaker, that I wish to convey my best to the Deputy Speakers of this assembly. I feel they have treated all members fairly well.", "Mr. Speaker, I believe this is the seventh Throne Speech debate in which I have had the pleasure to participate. I want to congratulate the hon. member for Brantford (Mr. Beckett) for moving the address to his Honour the Lieutenant Governor, and the hon. member for Timiskaming (Mr. Havrot) for seconding this motion.", "I was interested in what they had to say in their reply to the Throne Speech. Both members agreed to support the proposal for a prescription drug plan for senior citizens and stated that previous assistance was outdated. This party has been clear and forceful on many occasions in advocating policy changes to assist senior citizens in a comprehensive drug plan.", "I ask the government to give further consideration to the Throne Speech and to consider those persons who are in the grey area and who need special medical care -- those who are not 65 years old but who require special services; and particularly those persons between the ages of 55 and 65 who have very little assistance to maintain a proper living standard in the Province of Ontario, those people who do not receive old age security cheques.", "The member for Timiskaming has suggested the need for younger and more vigorous commissioners for the Ontario Northland Railway and the appointment of a commissioner to represent labour. Well that is a Tory switch, and I am sure all members of the opposition agree to these two proposals. I wish this member well in moving the government in this direction; and of course if one has read the Globe and Mail in the past couple of days, I hope that they move in this direction much more quickly than he has suggested.", "We in the official opposition can also agree and support the suggestion of issuing credit cards for the health services programme in Ontario. I can recall that this is not the first instance of which this suggestion has been placed before the House. I believe it was the hon. member for Nipissing (Mr. R. S. Smith), who as this party’s health critic a few years ago suggested this was one step in the right direction to reduce the red tape and confusion that existed in the early stages of the Ontario health insurance plan. It would also provide a clear cut picture of services rendered by the medical profession to the patient and no doubt speed up payments to the medical doctors.", "Mr. Speaker, during the Throne Speech members can well appreciate the consideration that the government has finally taken to improve the standard of living for citizens in remote areas of northern Ontario. I have also noted that the federal government will be sharing in expansion programmes in northern Ontario. The programme is long overdue and will be supported by members on this side of the House. The establishments of local councils in unorganized territories will no doubt be welcomed by many citizens in northern Ontario. The first decentralization of power from Queen’s Park in itself is a major step. This will allow citizens a voice and participation in local issues, so that they will be able to make their own decisions in the best interest and welfare of their communities. I commend the government for this proposal.", "The question of mandatory use of seatbelts has not been well received by Ontario motorists. The old saying “Speed kills,” promoted by safety crusaders, is well substantiated by the recent drop in traffic fatalities in the United States. Speed limits were reduced as a fuel-saving measure in the oil crisis that hit the United States and there was a noticeable decrease in the total number of accidents. The government of Ontario should give consideration to reducing the speed limits on our highways in Ontario.", "Mr. Speaker, perhaps the weakest point raised in the Throne Speech dealt with a paragraph concerning inflation. Quoting:", "“My government will employ all practical means at its disposal to alleviate the causes of and effects of inflation. Nevertheless, it bears repeating that the problem can only be dealt with in a national con- text, with all governments co-operating.”", "Surely, Mr. Speaker, this government has a great responsibility in the problem of inflation. Approximately one-third of the population of Canada lives in Ontario. We in Ontario have the highest average weekly wages and salaries of any province in Canada at almost $170 a week. It is a province with vast resources, minerals, precious metals, forest products and an excellent fanning industry and sufficient energy, in fact we export energy.", "Mr. Speaker, the Throne Speech clearly indicates that this government is not concerned with the continued growth rate of inflation and has no intention of grappling with the causes of inflation. It is most degrading or dishonest for the government of the day to allow inflation to continue to rise day after day, destroying family incomes.", "The average hourly earnings are substantially less than the increase in the cost of living. Those employees working in industry who negotiated agreements some two or three years ago have been hit the hardest. We’ve all seen the food prices in this country increased by approximately 17 per cent in 1973. I believe, as other members do, that the farmer is not the one to be blamed for these increases.", "Mr. Speaker, it is often taken for granted that unions and their members, and I should also include farmers, are responsible for inflation. But let us now take a look at the Globe and Mail of Wednesday, March 20, 1974. This is in the Report on Business:", "“BASE METALS HOLD LEAD IN PROFIT PERFORMANCE FOR THIRD SUCCESSIVE YEAR", "“The base metals group, aided by higher prices and production, turned in the best profit performance in the Report on Business sampling of the final fourth quarter after-tax profits of Canadian companies. This is the third time in succession that group has topped the list.", "“Following the base metals were the industrial mines group, the paper and forest products, real estate companies, and golds. At the other end of the scale were miscellaneous financial companies, trust and loan companies, and pipelines.”", "Referring particularly to the trust and loan companies, I believe that they perhaps have reached one of the highest profits in all of Canadian history in the Province of Ontario. When we look at the profits that some of these trust and loan companies make, maybe we should come in with some legislation to control the cost of borrowing, particularly to the loan companies. I believe it is almost -- what is it? -- 24 per cent as set out by statute. I think this is away too high.", "I was asked to be present one night when a chap had to go into a finance company to pay off his final debt. He came back out and I told him what I thought he should do -- ask for a complete statement. He came back out and said a statement wasn’t available. I said: “Don’t go back and pay anything until they can produce a statement.” In a period of about three years he almost paid double what he borrowed. Of course, there were other hidden clauses in there that raised the actual costs of borrowing to him.", "I believe there should be some restrictions brought in, because 24 per cent is too high at this time -- or at any time I should say.", "“Banks: For the first time in a profit survey, balance of revenue after provision for income taxes has been reported for the banks. Previously, the balance of revenue before income taxes was included in the surveys. The changeover allows a better comparison of bank profits with those of other groups.", "“In the fourth quarter the balance of revenue for banks rose by 26.2 per cent to $93.8 million from $74.3 million” [in comparison with the similar quarter of 1973].", "“Steel: Exceptionally strong world and domestic demand for steel pushed production, sales and in some cases profit levels of steelmakers to record levels. Raw steel production by Algoma Steel Ltd. of Sault Ste. Marie rose to 2,650,000 tons from 2,426,000 in 1972 and steel product shipments in- creased to 1,920,000 tons from 1,740,000 tons. The profit of $2.45 a share in 1973 was up sharply from the year earlier $1.37 a share....”", "I might add that I have made some inquires to local industries in my area in the past two or three weeks. I specifically inquired about the price of steel, Mr. Speaker, and I was amazed to learn that the so-called shortage of steel, which might have been manufactured or created by the steel industry, means that the fabricators cannot buy the type of steel they want. There is one catch, however. They can buy it if they want to pay the price. And if they want quick delivery, they pay the price and they will get it, although the price perhaps will be far above the price that is usually quoted in estimates.", "I imagine, with the commercial developments that are taking place in downtown Toronto and the highrise buildings that are going up here, that it is going to be pretty hard in the coming year for a contractor to make a decent estimate on the cost of a building. I don’t know how he is going to stay in business, because he can’t get a commitment from any of these companies, say a six month commitment, that the price of steel will remain at that level. This again is going to cause inflation in the cost of building in the Province of Ontario.", "“Food processing: Profit of 12 food processing companies rose by 81.1 per cent in the fourth quarter and 59.6 per cent for the year. Maple Leaf Mills Limited of Toronto, one of the larger companies included in the group, had a profit before extraordinary items of $7,859,000 in 1973, compared with $3,150,000 in 1972. George Weston Ltd., of Toronto showed a $34,629,000 profit in 1973....”", "I believe the member for Huron stated that he thought one of the problems with the food chains stores in the Province of Ontario was that perhaps they were adding extra profits and the consumer again is paying for it.", "Mr. Speaker, we as Canadians do agree that corporations must maintain a fair margin in profits to remain competitive and to preserve a strong labour force. There are many Canadians, and I am one of those, who are concerned about the high cost of food.", "We can readily see the profiteering at a time when there is supposed to be national crisis of oil in Canada. There was an increase in windfall profits on an average of more than 46 per cent that applies to four or five of the major national oil companies located in Canada, and perhaps I should name a few -- Imperial Oil, Shell Oil, Gulf Oil and BP, as well as Exxon and Texaco.", "Most of these companies are related or partners in perhaps the world’s largest oil syndicate, namely Aramco -- Arabian-American Oil Co. Look at the Royal Dutch-Shell group 1973 profits -- $1.71 billion, as compared with $675.4 million.", "Mr. Speaker, I said, and perhaps it is worth repeating again, that the oil crisis was manufactured or created by a consortium of multinational corporations with one goal: to increase their profits well above any reasonable profit year, thereby adding further to inflationary costs perhaps to a breaking point that many countries will not survive. This unnecessary impact is gouging the consumer.", "I have another report here that I thought I should read into the record, Mr. Speaker. Perhaps it will back up some of the arguments I have put forth so far. This is from the monthly letter of the Royal Bank of Canada, which has its head office in Montreal:", "“Applying to business this principle of the basic need to survive, the deputy chairman and executive vice-president of this bank said to Canada-United Kingdom Chamber of Commerce in London in May: ‘Profit is an essential condition for the survival and growth of an enterprise. Profit is also, of course, the required incentive and reward to the providers of capital. Profit is also the most effective measure of an enterprise’s operation.’", "“Then he went on to speak of the second obligation: ‘If corporations are not seen to act, and do not in fact act, in a socially responsible manner, their long-term survival could be threatened.’”", "I believe that is a warning. That is a warning at this time, Mr. Speaker, that the situation is perhaps not too healthy in many countries throughout the world.", "Much of the manufactured increase of crude oil prices originated in the United States by a consortium of oil magnates solely for their personal capital gains. At present, Senate hearings being held in the United States have indicated and lead one to believe that it is the world’s largest swindle. It is even cropping up in the Watergate hearings.", "In the past, the United States government has given certain tax concessions, as well as imposing an embargo, on crude oil coming into the United States, supposedly to encourage further development of oil resources. This has failed for the simple reason that the companies have not used the tax credits for exploration in the United States, but in some small instances in other areas throughout the world.", "The question of higher prices to the oil companies, as announced this past week by all smiling Premiers of this great Dominion, is no guarantee of increased exploration and development here in Canada.", "With the tax concessions already present, such as depreciation allowance, reports indicate that they will pay less than six per cent on their book profits.", "It is my hope that Canadian ownership and control of our vast resources in Ontario and throughout Canada remain totally in the hands of Canadians. Also that the revenue developed by the two-price system for oil be used directly by truly Canadian-owned corporations as announced by the federal government in creating a national petroleum corporation with investments and control of production in Canada, in particular of the Athabaska tar sands.", "I say to members of this House and to all Canadians, we have been taken by the multinational corporations. We have allowed corporate profiteers to pile up windfall profits at the expense of the people of this great Dominion, and in particular that of the people of this Province of Ontario. The government of Canada and the provincial government of Ontario should have initiated a fullscale public investigation of oil profits before there was any agreement to allow an increase in the price of crude oil, which in the long run will be paid to the oil companies.", "In the recent investigation into oil profits by a United States Senate committee it was revealed that four or more oil companies were reaping windfall profits. As members of this Legislature we have all read reports of substantial increases in profits of mining corporations. In some instances, it is well over 200 per cent. Perhaps I should go back to that article of the Globe and Mail, if I can find it here.", "Well, for example, base metals. In 1973, their profits had increased by 358.5 per cent. Industrial mines increased by 160.5 in profits. So members can see there’s been a substantial increase to the mining industry in the Province of Ontario.", "This indicates corporation profits, as a share of the gross national product, increased in 1973 while Canadian workers’ share of the gross national product actually declined.", "And perhaps, Mr. Speaker, I’ll go back to the Royal Bank of Canada monthly newsletter, to sum it up as the deputy chairman and executive vice-president of the Royal Bank summed it up when he said:", "“We are fast reaching the point where the social and political climate almost everywhere in the world will make it increasingly necessary for businesses to justify their existence on grounds other than purely economic success as expressed in terms of profit to shareholders.”", "Again he picks it out and it’s another warning to the corporations in Canada, particularly in Ontario, that there is no need for some of the high increases in profits without returning some of it to those persons who supply the labour to produce the profits for them.", "Mr. Speaker, one solution to this problem of inflationary costs to the consumer, to ease some of the struggle to keep the family head above water, is to bring in legislation which will allow a cost of living factor to apply to every wage earner in Ontario. Of course, this might be too easy a solution to the problem. The registered pension plans should also be required to include a cost of living escalator provision in their agreements.", "Or the government can move in another simple direction by making use of already existing legislation, be it federal or provincial, the Combines Investigations Act. I am sure if this government was concerned about inflation it would move in this direction. No doubt it would open up a can of worms in price fixing. Present governments, federal and provincial, today well need to come to grips with excess profits, the pros and cons of large increases in profits; I am sure they must agree to tax windfall and excess profits in order to assure the Canadian public that in our tax system there is justice.", "The question is what is the government going to do? If one follows the statement of the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Bernier), he’s going to do many things. Ontario plans changes in mining legislation to bring about an acreage tax increase which would develop approximately $13.5 million. We on this side would agree to that proposal, providing the revenue was returned to the present mining municipalities and the proposed new local governments, as proposed in the Throne Speech, for their own use based upon municipal land assessment for tax purposes. I hope this would give them the additional revenue required to provide the needs of and services for those communities.", "Mr. Speaker, I was also interested in reading in the Globe and Mail on March 9 that another programme for mining support would be introduced in the budget proposals, with tax incentives or tax write-offs for mining exploration. Surely, Mr. Speaker, one has to question the government’s further moving in the direction of tax concessions to corporations in the mining industries in Ontario. The government continuously gives additional tax credits and I believe it has been well documented in the House by previous speakers that at present the mining industries in Ontario pay far less than the average taxpayer in Ontario pays in personal income tax.", "I believe it has been stated that corporations pay an average of 5.2 per cent in taxes. It is interesting to note that in the auditor’s reports for 1972 and 1973, revenue and expenditure for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1973, for natural resources, revenue amounted to $55,161,863; expenditures were $138,797,387, an imbalance of approximately $84 million.", "Surely, Mr. Speaker, with these vast resources of forests and minerals in Ontario this is one department of the government that should generate a surplus of income for the Province of Ontario. This has been mentioned before by previous speakers. If the government is going to control inflation, this is one place where it should start." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. J. R. Rhodes (Minister of Transportation and Communications)", "text": [ "Where’s that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "That is from the Provincial Auditor’s report; a very important report. I suggest that all members should be reading it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "It’s a lot better than the Sun which his leader has been reading for tomorrow’s question period." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "The point I raise here, Mr. Speaker, is that with --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon (Leader of the Opposition)", "text": [ "I’m finding a job for the minister in the want ads." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "-- all the resources which are available in the mining industry and in the forest industry in the Province of Ontario, surely there should be enough profit generated from them to pay for the operations of that department. In other words, what I am saying is it’s a giveaway now to the mining corporations and to the forest industries in the Province of Ontario. The members know and I know that not enough revenue is generated to pay for the reforestation programme, for example. It’s the Province of Ontario which pays for it, not the forest industry." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "That’s right. The member for Victoria-Haliburton was saying so too." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "It is also interesting to have read the article in the Globe and Mail with the headline, “Base Metals Hold Lead.” There is no use repeating myself, but the point I want to bring to the attention of the House, Mr. Speaker, is that Falconbridge Nickel Mines Ltd. revenue was recorded at $438.2 million last year, up from $274.6 million in 1972. This was after the concession for depletion and depreciation costs and tax rebates.", "I was interested last year during the estimates of the Minister of Natural Resources, when the member for Sudbury East (Mr. Martel) brought up the working conditions, particularly at Falconbridge in the Sudbury basin. I believe at that time the minister’s staff had stated that the conditions were not favourable for any person to be working in that type of industry. I was just wondering, with profits as enormous as that, surely this government can move in some direction to give those workers in that industry good, clean working conditions. I suggest the government take a good hard look at this and see that something is done for those workers up in that industry.", "Mr. Speaker, there is not a day goes by without notice that the public is being informed of the large revenue increases by corporations, such as oil, mining, banks and trust companies. Many others have piled up incredibly high profits. Prices are increasing day after day and the purchasing power of the lower-income families is the one that suffers the most in the inflationary squeeze.", "The matter of excess profits, includes land speculations by foreign interests, again at the sacrifice of Canadians. This must also be controlled by the government. Again I understand through federal legislation there are certain tax concessions given to foreign capital that comes in here to buy land. I suppose that if you wanted to deal with the facts, Mr. Speaker, you only have to go down to the", "Niagara region to find the amount of land bought by foreign money in the area. I suppose it is even evident here in Toronto when you go to look at it." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "It is only the beginning." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "It is only the beginning; that’s right. Here again this government has failed to control the present cost to a purchaser of a home in Ontario, which far out-distances ability to produce an income capable of financing a home. The present Minister of Housing (Mr. Handleman) has stated that if the family is going to be able to purchase a new home his income, or both, will have to exceed $18,000 per year. How on earth can a family man in Ontario, earning an average income of around $9,000 per year, ever hope to find better living quarters under the present housing programme in Ontario? Under existing conditions speculators are encouraged to hoard land by the present system of government land controls.", "Present planning regulations are not geared to an individual, but for developers who in many instances have reaped a good return for their investment, adding further to the inflationary cost in home ownership. It is rather disappointing that the province finds itself in this predicament and disheartening to a number of prospective home buyers here in Ontario. If citizens in this province ever hope to own a home, then the government must move in the direction of a source of better income for Canadian workers, or seriously take a hard look at the housing industry in Ontario.", "All I’ve seen so far in the last month or so since we have a new Minister of Housing is that we have NIP and RAP. I remember the member for Downsview speaking on it here on Friday morning. I think I shouted across to him: “Yes, it is nothing but a paper housing programme.”" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "That was in my headline." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Is the minister looking at the want ads?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "To continue, Mr. Speaker, I think we should have control over land speculators; remove some of the planning delays caused by bureaucratic decisions made here at Queen’s Park; provide the financial resources to supply essential services for land development, such as sewer and water systems; bring in lower interest rates for financing family housing, and remove the provincial sales tax on residential housing in Ontario.", "It was also interesting to read the news release on March 25 from the Ministry of Industry and Tourism about a two-week long export mission to Italy and Spain sponsored by the minister’s trade division. One of the important products for sale overseas is the pre-fab wooden home. Surely this Minister of Housing is not going along with this export programme when a housing crisis exists in this province? Has not the minister a responsibility to establish Ontario priorities first? It would also be interesting to know what these homes cost to manufacture in Ontario and what the export price is.", "I have also been informed that the houses in the United States sell for far less compared with the price of such a home here in Ontario. Yet large quantities of Ontario forest products are exported to the United States. Is it not now time for a two-price system for lumber in Ontario? Why not establish Ontario priorities first?", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "Perhaps, Mr. Speaker, one other important item that is missing from the Throne Speech is the lack of any farm policy for the Province of Ontario. The Minister of Agriculture and Food in the past has done an excellent job for the farmers of Ontario, but I think he is tired and he wants to be replaced. We can see that very little has been done in the past year, or is being done now, for the farmers in the Province of Ontario. In fact, he has done nothing in control of the farmlands to see that they are maintained as workable farmlands.", "I am going to say this to the Minister of Transportation and Communications: we have cultivated more farmlands for highways and hydro towers in the province than has actually been brought into new production." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gaunt", "text": [ "Some of us haven’t got any faith left." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "And for example, Mr. Speaker, if you read the recent study that is going to come out in the Niagara region now on highway proposals in that area, the minister is going to build a four-lane expressway on top of the Niagara Escarpment, cut across down through the town of Pelham which has some of the best fruitlands in the Province of Ontario; he is going to destroy all of that if he creates this new road. It is not needed.", "I suggest the minister goes and talks to Prof. Pleva at the University of Western Ontario, a man who is knowledgeable on land control. You know what he suggests, Mr. Speaker? He said some 15 years ago that the government is wasting taxpayers’ money. When you have roadways already there -- the right of way is there, much of the roads are built up, the stone is on, the gravel is on, some are even paved -- why go and build a four-lane road? He says the simplest way to do it is make a one-way road here, go over to the next concession and make another one-way road the other way. You have one-way streets in the city of Toronto; there is no traffic congestion. People are used to it, and accommodate to it. Perhaps the minister should be looking at this." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Would the member support that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "You bet I would." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "The member would support that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "I would support that, that’s why I am saying this to the minister." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "The member is saying that because he knows he’ll never have to do it -- so he supports it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "It has merits." ] }, { "speaker": "Mrs. M. Campbell (St. George)", "text": [ "What does the minister mean, we’ll never have to do it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "It has merit." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Okay. That’s --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "You don’t cut a road diagonally across a municipality and destroy the whole social --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "No, no. I want to know, will the member support plans --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "Is the minister going to stop them in the cities now?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "-- for a highway eastbound here; and a mile away one westbound?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "The roads are set only about five-eighths of a mile or half a mile apart, not a mile away." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Well, even half a mile. Does the member support that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "It has merit and in some cases it can work. For example, let’s take the Nanticoke development. The minister is talking about a four-lane expressway there, isn’t he? It’s in one of his proposals. Could it not be worked there?", "Does the minister mean to tell me that he’s going to go 600 ft or 700 ft from another highway and construct a brand-new four-lane expressway -- that he cannot improve some of the existing roadways? Many of the people don’t want it. I think the minister’s got the measure already." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Maybe they won’t need it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "Pardon?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Maybe it won’t be there." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "But I think it’s worthwhile looking at. I suggest he sends some of his high-priced help to Western University to talk to this man." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "What’s his name?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "Pleva." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "P-l-e-v-a." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "I heard him 20 years ago." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "Never heard of him, eh?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Oh yes." ] }, { "speaker": "Mrs. Campbell", "text": [ "Where --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "Never listen to him.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The member for Welland South has the floor." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "This is good, Mr. Speaker, I am getting some of his ideas. I want to know what’s going to take place in the Niagara region." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "We haven’t time for repartee." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "Perhaps the minister should be moving to more rapid transportation programmes in certain areas. While we are into this discussion across the floor I suggested that the minister should be looking at this instead of Highway 406 in the Niagara region, instead of going through there, cutting up city property and taking homes away. There is an old existing railroad right of way that used to carry people years ago by trolley from the city of Port Colborne to Port Dalhousie. Of course 20 years ago I guess the government at that time said it was outdated. It is like the horse and buggy days, it is outdated. But today this is the way to move masses of people.", "I suggest before the government really gets into setting out a route for Highway 406 -- and has problems with it -- it looks at the rapid transit system. Eventually the cities of Port Colborne, Welland and St. Catharines will be one urbanized area right across the peninsula, right across the corridor. Maybe the government should be providing us with hovercraft so we could use the canal. Maybe that would be the simplest way yet." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "I hope the member’s local press is gobbling all this up for the member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "The local press said this -- this is where I am getting it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. A. Grossman (Provincial Secretary for Resources Development)", "text": [ "The release has al- ready gone out --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "But they are not listening to them. So I hope that the minister does.", "I was interested in the proposals of the federal government that it is coming in with an agricultural policy. I have to give credit to the federal Minister of Agriculture. In the short time he has been in there, less than a year, he has done more for the farmers in Canada and in Ontario than our provincial minister who has been in the portfolio, for some 10 years I guess it is." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Almost 12." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "In his short span in office, the federal minister has done more for the farmers in Canada and in Ontario.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Well, he is a good Essex county product. He comes from the sunshine parlour, that is why.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Eugene who?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "Mr. Whelan, just Gene.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "He wouldn’t know him." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "But I will tell you this much, Mr. Speaker, he is concerned about the loss of milk production in Canada, in Ontario. I believe it has dropped 4.7 per cent." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "A shortfall of over five per cent now." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "Over five per cent? It is rather a serious problem here in the Province of Ontario. One of the hardest things about it is that farmers who want to increase the production of milk have a hard time in trying to get a loan. I don’t blame this on the provincial government but --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "It is the only thing the member hasn’t.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the province at one time had the junior farmers’ loan programme.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "I believe the minister stated at that time this was a duplication of a federal loan programme and removed it from the Province of Ontario. I suggest that the minister should get back into it again." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "He is doing a great job." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "There are many young farmers who perhaps aren’t qualified for loans, in some instances through family ties, and I suggest that perhaps we should be moving back into the junior farmer credit loan programme in the province. I am sure that we could get a lot of these youngsters back in the farming industry in the Province of Ontario.", "I would like to read what the federal Minister of Agricultural is going to do:", "“To complement this programme the federal government will extend its assistance programme for the construction of new storage facilities. In many regions storage facilities are not adequate today, while in other regions storage is outdated and better facilities should be constructed.", "“Storage construction assistance is now being provided for specialized fruit and vegetable stores and this programme will be continued and extended to other suitable crops.", "“The farmers of Canada will benefit through better market places and consumers will benefit from the increased supplies throughout the year through better quality food kept in the top-notch storage facilities. Our research group have proved that some commodities can be placed in proper storage and then taken out in just as good a condition as when they went in, or in some instances even better. This will provide the consumer with more stable prices and more even prices for the producer.”", "I believe, Mr. Speaker, last year in the Throne Speech debate I had suggested something similar to this; that we should have more storage facilities for farm commodities or farm produce in Canada -- and this is one of the problems right now. The consumer is paying a high price for the food because we have to have it imported or it’s just not available. That’s one of the reasons why it’s not available.", "I suggested to the Minister of Agriculture and Food at that time that in the Niagara Peninsula he should be moving into the tender fruit business in that area, and putting in a fast-frozen food plant. Much of the crop there is wasted. It’s not being picked and there just aren’t facilities for storing it. The canners are filled up with what they want and the rest of it goes to waste.", "I suggest that the Minister of Agriculture and Food should be looking at this, perhaps through some joint programme with the federal Minister of Agriculture, so that we could get into a good food storage programme in Ontario. The adverse weather conditions are one of the other reasons that we should have a food storage facility." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "They want to sell it to their developer friends." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "Yes, that’s what they are doing -- or moving in with highways or something like that, trying to cultivate asphalt in the Province of Ontario.", "These are some of the things I’m concerned about, Mr. Speaker, and perhaps the government would take note of what I’ve said tonight. I do want to support my leader and his motion that he put forward here in the Throne debate. Perhaps it’s worthwhile reading it into the record again. Perhaps some of the members have forgotten.", "“Mr. Nixon moves, seconded by Mr. Breithaupt, that the following words be added to the motion:", "“For its failure to establish a prices review committee of the Legislature, which together with a reduction in provincial deficit spending, would exert control on inflation;", "“For its inadequate land-use policy which continues to permit the unreasonable loss of farmland to government and private development, and the unnatural inflationary pressures of foreign land purchases without safeguarding Canadian ownership and interest;", "“For its failure to establish planning and land servicing programmes without which serviced-lot costs have escalated housing out of the financial reach of our residents.”", "With that, Mr. Speaker, I will sit down and let the next speaker take the floor." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The member for Thunder Bay." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. E. Stokes (Thunder Bay)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I’m pleased to see the member for St. Andrew-St. Patrick (Mr. Grossman) who has taken on the new responsibility as Provincial Secretary for Resources Development. I had hoped that the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Bernier) would have been in the chamber tonight so I could exchange a few views with him with regard to recent developments in the resource industries, but since he is not here and his new --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "He will be in." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "-- parliamentary assistant isn’t here, perhaps the Provincial Secretary for Resources Development can pass on some of my concerns and apprehensions about recent developments." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "I will take the message for him." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I want to report to the Legislature that a lot of the jargon that has been used by the former Department of Lands and Forests, and now the new Ministry of Natural Resources, is no longer valid. It was the conventional wisdom in this Legislature and in the Ministry of Natural Resources that we were fairly well up on allowable cuts and sustained yields, that we had a very accurate inventory of what our resource was, that we had a fairly good idea of what the age classes were and what the availability of wood fibre in the various species was.", "It’s just slowly coming home now to the Minister of Natural Resources and his ministry that they really don’t know what end is up. They haven’t got a clue as to what the sustained yield is in the boreal forest in the Province of Ontario. They have no idea what the allowable cut should be.", "We have been contracting wood fibre out in large quantities to companies like Anglo-Canadian, where they have announced an expansion of a quarter of a billion dollars in the Dryden, Ear Falls, Red Lake area. We have got a recent expansion of $120 million by Great Lakes in Thunder Bay. We have another expansion in the city of Thunder Bay by MacMillan Bloedel, which is going to be operated by a wholly-owned subsidiary of theirs, Laidlaw Lumber Co. We have an expansion that was to take place by Domtar, at their mill at Red Rock, of anywhere from $70 million to $90 million -- and lo and behold, Mr. Speaker, we get an announcement within the last two weeks from Domtar that unless additional wood fibre is made available to them they won’t be able to go ahead with their proposed expansion. We are led to believe that unless there’s some kind of rationalization in the forest industry with regard to the allocation of timber we are in real difficulty.", "As a matter of fact, the vice president of Domtar only two weeks ago said that particular company was going to be in trouble if it couldn’t get in and cut timber within the confines of Quetico Park. Now, Domtar is a company that operates in northwestern Ontario, that geographically speaking has one of the largest timber limits in all of Ontario, and yet we are led to believe by this company that unless it can have additional supplies of wood, it doesn’t know whether it can keep existing mills open, let alone carry out a planned expansion to maintain its relative position in the marketplace.", "Domtar is a company that, as recently as four or five years ago -- we were told by the Ministry of Natural Resources -- had a sustained yield on an allowable cut of 600,000 cords a year. Domtar at the present time is harvesting about 130,000 to 150,000 cords a year. Where’s the other 450,000 to 500,000 cords a year they were supposed to have on their limits on a sustained yield basis?", "When I asked the timber branch of the Ministry of Natural Resources, they said: “Well, we were out a little bit. We thought they had this kind of timber on their limits but we find out that it just isn’t there.”", "Domtar is a company that has timber limits stretching from Lake Superior right up beyond the northern line of the Canadian National Railways and right up to the Ogoki reservoir. The town of Armstrong has been having a particularly difficult time since the federal Department of National Defence decided to phase out a radar base, so we naturally look to the forest industry to provide an alternative to lend some viability to a community such as Armstrong.", "We asked Domtar if they would go in and utilize some of the wood on their limits that has been going to waste and over-maturity over the last 35 years, and they say there isn’t enough timber. We asked the", "Ministry of Natural Resources what the inventory is in that block that has been allocated to Domtar over the last 35 years. Domtar doesn’t know what’s on the limit. The Ministry of Natural Resources doesn’t know what’s on the limit. A third party who wants to go in tells me there could be as much as three million cords of mature and over-mature timber but they can’t get at it.", "We have had two assessments made of that timber limit in the past six months. Domtar has engaged in another assessment of what the inventory is and what is the allowable cut and we still don’t know what it is. I’ve had assessments of from 450,000 cords on that particular block to three million cords, depending on who one listens to.", "The reason I bring it to the attention of the Provincial Secretary for Resources Development is because I fear that unless somebody starts asking some pretty pertinent questions we are going to allow that timber to become over-mature, to go down the drain and be lost to the economy of this province and lost to the people of Armstrong who so badly need it.", "Going back over the last four or five years we were led to believe by the Ministry of Natural Resources that every cunit, that is every 100 cu. ft of wood we cut, provided over $100 of new wealth to the economy of the Province of Ontario.", "Even if there are only 450,000 cords of saw log material upon which to start a saw log industry, multiply that by 100 and that will give members some idea of the new wealth which will be created if we utilize that resource which is in a mature and an over-mature state at the present time. That’s the rock bottom -- 450,000 cords going unharvested at the present time. It could be as much as 1 1/2 million or it could be as much at 2 1/2 million cords.", "Because of all the contracts this government has been entering into recently for greater utilization -- and I’m not against greater utilization as long as we know the values we are talking about -- but if we are going to get involved in allocating timber the value of which we don’t know and the quantity of which we don’t know, we are going to be in real trouble in the Province of Ontario. We heard the member for Victoria-Haliburton say how far behind we were with regard to our regeneration, our silviculture and our reforestation programme in the Province of Ontario when we compare that with other jurisdictions such as Scandinavia and the United States.", "I don’t know what the allowable cut is in the Province of Ontario. I thought I knew. I have made a study of it ever since I’ve been in this Legislature, taking the word of the Ministry of Natural Resources and taking the word of the former Department of Lands and Forests; but they were selling me a bill of goods. They are just coming to admit right now that we don’t know what the inventory is in the Province of Ontario with regard to species, with regard to age classes and with regard to the availability on specific timber limits. It seems to me that we can no longer leave it to guesswork or the very imprecise way we have had in the past of saying we have all kinds of it so we really don’t have to worry too much.", "When we get a well-established company like Domtar coming to this government and saying: “We think we are in real trouble,” I think it is high time that the Ministry of Natural Resources and the resources policy field got those people from the timber branch off their fannies and out into the field instead of acting as administrators. As I go through the province and I talk to the foresters within the Ministry of Natural Resources, they tell me they are so busy acting as administrators and office boys that they never get out. They never get a chance to get out into the field and find out what the proper timber inventory should be.", "Wherever I go, I get the people who are really concerned, the concerned foresters, who say: “I just wish I knew what the situation was, but I’m so busy tied down to this desk doing administrative work that I can’t get out and do the job I was hired to do; and that is proper management of our forest resources.”", "Mr. Speaker, when you heard the present Minister of Community and Social Services (Mr. Brunelle) talking about allowable cuts and sustained yields in the past, when you heard me talking about it, and when you heard the now Minister of Natural Resources talking about sustained yields and allowable cuts and all of this; it was all a bunch of malarky, because we were sold a bill of goods.", "I’m sure the Minister of Community and Social Services and the hon. member for Cochrane North can verify what I’m going to say. He represents an area of this province where the economy depends almost entirely upon our ability to manage our forest resources. Mr. Speaker, you talk about what happens in Cochrane with a waferboard mill or a chipboard mill. You talk about the saw log industry in Hearst that he’s vitally interested in. Go and ask those people whether they have an assured supply of timber over the next 10 to 15 years, and they will start to scratch their heads because they don’t know where it’s coming from. They just don’t know, because you cant believe what the Ministry of Natural Resources tells you any more with regard to the allocation of timber and the availability of timber over whatever length of time it’s going to take to recover a $100 million or $150 million expansion investment.", "We’re in real trouble in the Province of Ontario with regard to the allocation of timber, if we don’t get off our fannies, find out what the allowable cut is, what the sustained yield is, and whether we’re going to allocate a sufficient number of dollars for reforestation, and regeneration so that 10, 15, 20, 30, 40 or 50 years from now we can come back and say: yes, we’ve still got a viable pulp and paper industry; we’ve got a viable saw log industry; we’ve got a viable plywood industry.", "It’s not going to happen by itself. I think this House should know that unless we get our foresters into the bush and get them managing our forests, and unless we’re going to get the kind of dollars from the industry to pay for the kind of management that’s been so sadly lacking over the years, we’re not going to have a viable pulp and paper industry very long in the Province of Ontario.", "Don’t take my word for it. Ask the questions that I have been asking of the timber branch." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. W. Hodgson", "text": [ "Don’t worry; we won’t." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "Don’t take my word for it. Go and ask the timber branch what the allowable cut is on Great Lakes limits. Go and ask them what the allowable cut is on Domtar limits. Ask them what the allowable cut is on Kimberly-Clark limits.", "They won’t be able to tell you, because a lot of the data we thought was valid is 20 years out of date. You have a Canadian company like Domtar scratching for wood to sustain a mild expansion in their mill at Red Rock. You get a company like MacMillan Bloedel, that just set up on the outskirts of Thunder Bay, and the Ministry of Natural Resources saying to everybody who cuts a stick of birch or poplar on Crown land that it must go to MacMillan Bloedel and they can’t sell it any place else. If you cut it on Crown land it must be sold to MacMillan Bloedel, Mr. Speaker.", "They’ve got captive buyers. You can cut all of the wood you want on Crown land, but if it’s of that species it must go to that one company. That gives you some idea about where we are in the Province of Ontario today, Mr. Speaker.", "I’m not saying that the industry is going to cave in; what I’m saying is that the kind of information that we’ve been going along with for the last 20 years in this province, we find out is not accurate and is not reliable. I think it’s time we took a good hard look at where we are going with regard to an industry that is so vitally important, not only to northern Ontario that I represent but to the economy of the entire province.", "I do hope the minister will take it seriously. I’m not usually this forceful in my criticism of a ministry, but I think in this particular case it is justified and I think the government is going to have to get after the Ministry of Natural Resources for a more accurate allocation of timber on the basis of need.", "We have companies that can never hope to use all of the wood that is under licence to them. I could take members to stands of timber that are 130 to 150 years of age that have never been touched. The wood is falling over and it is rotting, when others are crying for the timber to keep their mills open.", "Why? It is because of our present licensing system. There are a good many jurisdictions where they don’t hand out licences to large feudal domains. They’ll say: “We will assure you wood on a volume agreement.” But we don’t do it that way, with very few exceptions; I suppose we have one or two volume agreements across the province.", "What we have been doing is saying: “Okay, we’ll carve up the province and we’ll give this block to company A, we’ll give this block to company B, we’ll give this block to company C and so on down the line.”", "Let’s assume company A has this block and builds its mill here. What they do is, from the time they start operating the mill, they start high-grading around the mill.", "What happens over here? When they were issued the licence there was over-mature wood here. Maybe 30 years have passed in the interim and of course they haven’t even been concerned about this wood. So now they have stands away up here in the northern part of their limits that are mature and over- mature by 30 years.", "That’s just like saying to the Minister of Agriculture and Food: “We’ll plant a crop and because there is lots to satisfy us within 40 acres of the barn, we won’t bother harvesting that.”", "You just don’t do things that way; that isn’t the way to manage a renewable resource. You look at the total package and you say: “Okay, in this year, 1965, there is a block of timber that is mature and it’s at its maximum. We will go in there and we will cut that.” They didn’t do things that way; they aren’t doing things like that today.", "They are high-grading -- wherever they can get the cheapest wood within closest proximity to the mill, or where they are about to use it; they couldn’t care less about what is over-maturing and falling down and being lost to the economy. That’s why we have tremendous stands of timber that have gone unused in the past, that are falling over and that are rotting.", "As I suggest to the House, it is coming back to haunt us. We can no longer afford to let these prime licence-holders high-grade these timber limits. They must manage the entire limit, not just high-grade within close proximity to the mill. That’s the reason why millions of cords are being lost to the economy and that’s why, unless there is some rationalization in timber limits and unless there is good management of the resource, we are going to continue to get this waste and it’s going to come back to haunt us. If we let this stuff that is mature now sit there for even another five years, the values will be so low that it wouldn’t be worth while to go in to cut it and it will just lie there and rot.", "I suggest we can’t allow that to happen, because between now and 1980 to 1985 the need for wood fibre in North America is going to double. We are told that between the year 2000 and 2010 it is going to quadruple. Where is it going to come from, unless we make up our minds right here and now that we are going to manage our timber resources in a way that maximum benefit will accrue to people living in this province. We want to make sure when we do make an inventory that it is based on reliable information and that we are, in effect, harvesting it on an allowable cut basis and on a sustained yield basis; which isn’t happening at the present time.", "There is one other topic I want to get into, Mr. Speaker, and that is this commitment in the Throne Speech:", "“Northern communities in unorganized territories will, through enabling legislation, have the opportunity to establish local community councils. Fire protection, water, roads and other such services will become the responsibility of these community councils. Implementation of this plan will follow full consultation with residents of communities that wish to participate.”", "I asked the Minister without Portfolio (Mr. Irvine) who is responsible for the introduction of this covering legislation about it. He didn’t know what form it was to take. He didn’t know just when it would be brought in.", "This is one of the things that I have been harping about ever since I have had the pleasure to represent Thunder Bay riding in this Legislature. I don’t know whether I have got more unorganized communities than anybody else in this Legislature, but I know the problems confronting those unorganized communities seem to be greater than in those communities represented by other members. I welcome this and I just hope that when they do bring in the legislation there will be a transfer of funds or there will be sufficient funds made available for water, sewage systems, fire protection and all of the kinds of services that people have come to expect today but which people in unorganized communities will never aspire to without some kind of financial assistance.", "I do hope that when the legislation is introduced there will be a commitment to enable the Ontario government to finance the kind of programme that will make this kind of legislation meaningful and of worthwhile assistance to these unorganized territories.", "There is one other brief topic that I wanted to talk about tonight, Mr. Speaker, and I am sorry that the Minister of Transportation and Communications left, because it concerns an announcement that was made in the Throne Speech about a commitment to assist people in far northern communities with regard to the high cost of transportation. In a seminar that was held here about two weeks ago, a commitment was made, and I quote:", "“A study of new ways to lower the cost of food and essential services for remote Indian bands will be made by the Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources, according to an announcement made by the Hon. Leo Bernier in a meeting in Toronto with more than 70 members of Treaty 9 Indian bands.”", "There was a mention made that they had spent over $4 million thus far in the highway-in-the-sky programme. That is, they had established airstrips -- places like Sandy Lake, places like Big Trout Lake, places like Fort Albany, Fort Severn -- and in total they had spent in excess of $4 million and they had come to the conclusion that they had better take another look at the various and different modes of transportation in order to bring down the unit cost of goods and services to many remote areas of northern Ontario. The minister said:", "“In recent years, the government has instituted a highway-in-the-sky programme to provide our Indian people with year-round air transport. It was envisaged that these air strips would reduce the cost of food in the north by permitting larger aircraft, such as DC-3s, to service the community on regular scheduled service. But the experience to date indicates that this programme is not yet having the desired effect of reducing costs.”", "Well, how did the minister expect it was going to reduce costs unless he said to the air carrier: “You will pass any inherent cost or any saving on to the consumer using those new facilities in those remote communities.”", "I know that when I travel to Big Trout Lake and when I travel to Fort Severn, I don’t see any air carriers lowering the cost just because they were able to ship foodstuffs by DC-3 as opposed to a Cessna 180.", "I am sure that my friend the minister, the member for Cochrane North -- as he travels the northern part of his riding -- is not aware of Hudson’s Bay stores or anybody like that lowering the unit cost of a loaf of bread or a pound of butter just because somebody flew in a load in a DC-3 as opposed to a Cessna 180.", "If the government is going to spend in excess of $4 million -- as it has done -- to provide an airstrip, it is going to have to say: “Sure, we collectively as a government will provide the facility but we expect, as a matter of fact we demand, that you pass any additional saving on to the consumer, because that’s the intent of the programme.”", "The government could provide a facility that would allow it to drop a DC-9 or a 747 in there and it would really lower the unit cost of transporting goods and services to the north, but unless the government tells the people that are going to use them that any enhanced saving is to be passed on to the consumer, it’s just not going to happen." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. R. Brunelle (Minister of Community and Social Services)", "text": [ "We are experimenting with winter roads." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "Pardon?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Brunelle", "text": [ "We are experimenting with winter roads." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "Well, sure the government is going to experiment with winter roads, but when Andy Rickert, who is the president of Treaty No. 3 -- I wasn’t invited to this conference and I understand the minister wasn’t either; at least he wasn’t there. I know I wasn’t invited to it, and I would have dearly loved to have gone down to that conference and heard what went on. But I heard about the confrontation.", "Andy Rickert said: “Let’s put our eggs in one basket and let’s talk about winter roads.”", "The Minister of Natural Resources said: “No, we aren’t sold on the validity of all-winter roads. Sure, we will give you an experiment. We will start with Moosonee and we will go up to Albany and Attawapiskat.”", "And then they started in my riding and they said:", "“We will give you another pilot project where we will go from Pickle Lake to Round Lake to some place else.” But he didn’t accept holus-bolus that concept of winter roads.", "Sure I agree that maybe it’s going to take a combination of several things in order to bring down the unit cost, but the former Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. Carton) did not.", "The minister will recall last summer when we were both travelling in the far north -- I to places like Fort Severn and he to places like Attawapiskat, Fort Albany and Winisk in his own riding -- where we know that the unit cost of shipping things in by barge is much less than flying things in by air. So I asked and the minister supported the concept that we should get more barge runs going during the shipping season along the north coast to bring down the unit cost. And, of course, the former Minister of Transportation and Communications said: “No, I don’t see that as a valid alternative and it’s not our intention to get into bargeing.”", "Now, for whatever it’s worth --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Brunelle", "text": [ "This will be done." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "Yes, sure. For whatever it’s worth, the Hudson’s Bay Co. has been bargeing ever since living memory in the Hudson Bay and James Bay areas. They didn’t just happen upon it because there was nothing else. They could have flown things in. They happen to think that it’s the cheapest way to move things in the north during the shipping season. So there’s another alternative the government should get into.", "But all I want to say to the Provincial Secretary for Resources Development, because transportation too falls within his purview and it’s something that if he hasn’t already got on his plate, he is going to have it on his plate very very shortly, is to suggest that unless we opt for a mode of transportation where we can transmit the saving to the consumer, nothing is going to happen, because no matter who the carrier is, whether it is bargeing, a winter roads setup or an expansion of the highways-in-the-sky programme; unless there is a commitment that the enhanced saving is passed on to the consumer, the programme isn’t even going to come close to doing what it was designed to do.", "There is no one person who has all of the answers about the high cost of transportation in the north. What I am saying is, though, that this government has spent over $4 million on a highways-in-the-sky programme, which obviously hasn’t worked. I am sure that benefits have accrued, but I suspect that the benefits have accrued to the air carriers as opposed to the native people, on whose behalf this project was undertaken.", "I have many other matters that I would have liked to have raised, but I know that we do have some time constraints and I will reserve any further comment for the budget debate, Mr. Speaker. But I do hope that the Provincial Secretary for Resources Development will heed my words about the problems that we are having in the rationalization of timber limits. I also hope that he will relay some of my questions to the timber branch of the Ministry of Natural Resources and see what kind of answers he gets from them, because I want to assure him that I am not getting the kinds of answers that are satisfactory. And I am sure there are a good many people in the industry who would like to know in what direction they are going and what the future holds for the timber, pulp and paper and plywood industries in the Province of Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Windsor-Walkerville." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman (Windsor-Walkerville)", "text": [ "Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. My first words should be to say how pleased I am to see you in fighting trim and once again assuming your responsibilities in the chair, as you have so ably done in the past. It is nice to see you conducting the affairs of this House in the able manner in which you have conducted them during the past few years.", "Likewise, Mr. Speaker, I would like to extend my congratulations to all of those in the House on the government benches who assumed additional responsibilities. Maybe I should also congratulate those who have left that added burden to become back-benchers once again and able to enjoy some of the pleasures of the House.", "I would like to extend congratulations to the new parliamentary assistants, Mr. Speaker, but if there is one more round of appointments, there won’t be anyone on that side of the House to put in as parliamentary assistants. If the Premier can’t find them over there, he needn’t hesitate to come over here. There are a lot of extremely capable members sitting on this side of the House.", "Mr. Speaker, probably the first item of major importance in this House is that of the issue of inflation. One would have no difficulty bringing to the attention of the House the serious effects of inflation, not only on the residents of the Province of Ontario but also on residents throughout the length and breadth of Canada; I could even go beyond the bounds of our own country and say throughout the world.", "What concerns me most, Mr. Speaker, are the effects of inflation on the low wage earner, the working poor, the pensioner, the handicapped, those on government assistance programmes, and indeed, on those who probably are affected most adversely by it, the elderly.", "We in this House can’t appreciate the effects of inflation on the individual because we are not personally affected by it to any great extent. My comments concerning inflation will terminate at this point because when the budget is brought down tomorrow, we will have another opportunity to speak in the budget debate, and bring to the attention of this government the serious effects that inflation and the government’s lack of action are having.", "It is funny, Mr. Speaker, that the leader of the Conservative Party in Canada looks upon it as being a topic of greatest importance yet this government which controls 40 per cent of the manufacturing in Canada and the greatest percentage of other types of private enterprise does little or next to nothing to overcome the effects of inflation. We can see that the Tory party, Mr. Speaker, is on both sides of the fence." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "As usual." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, my --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Hypocritical, that’s what they are." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "Very much so. My leader certainly has pointed out to you most ably, Mr. Speaker, how hypocritical the members opposite and their government happen to be on the issue of inflation. They are not concerned with inflation; they talk a lot but they do nothing." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. M. Havrot (Timiskaming)", "text": [ "With all that hot air over there, there’s lots of inflation." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, my first comments on anything other than to do with this House should be to thank the many concerned citizens of the city of Windsor who rushed to the scene of the disaster or the misfortune that took place on Wednesday, April 3, in the city of Windsor when a tornado struck the Chrysler plant, bounced over three or four blocks of homes and hit the Windsor Curling Club. As a result of that, and we are all aware of this, eight people, seven fine men and one fine lady, lost their lives.", "It was very nice to see how the community responded to this serious emergency; how workers from the Chrysler plant, plus others at the French-Canadian centre which was right across from the Windsor Curling Club, pitched in to assist in not only removing the rubble which was the result of the tornado striking the curling club but also to assist the doctors, the ambulance attendants and so forth in seeing that those who did survive got the best possible treatment at the time.", "My commendations certainly do go out to all of those who contributed their services above and beyond the call of duty when their fellow man was confronted with such a serious disaster.", "Mr. Speaker, the first real topic I intend to introduce is the need for housing in the Province of Ontario. Rather than go into the provincial aspect, I’ll be a little more parochial and refer to it in relation to my own community and that is the city of Windsor. The new minister is simply repeating what we have heard in this House now for some 15 or 16 years. We have had housing by headline ever since I have been in this House and I don’t think this government intends to build any more houses other than through the headline fashion.", "Were the government as concerned as it maintains and claims it is, we would not be confronted with the situations we have throughout the length and breadth of Ontario. I can recall, Mr. Speaker, in practically every year I have had the opportunity of speaking in this House, bringing to the attention of the government the serious need for housing in the Windsor area, especially in relation to the senior citizens.", "I have brought out statistics showing how the government, in its attempt to resolve the problem, wasn’t coming close to the resolution. The need for housing continues to rise, then fall slightly and then rise substantially and unless this government becomes extremely serious about the housing situation, we are not going to accommodate many of those senior citizens whose days are numbered and whose one dream is to be able to spend the golden years of their lives in accommodation of which they are rightfully deserving.", "Mr. Speaker, this government certainly does not look upon the needs of the senior citizens in the light by which it should be looking on them. I have presented to it alternatives to the construction of highrise and other senior citizen accommodation.", "Many of the senior citizens are satisfied with the accommodations in which they happen to live. But they can’t afford the rentals, and government could very easily have accommodated them by picking up the tab or by subsidizing their rental payments in the accommodations in which they live. A rent subsidy programme, Mr. Speaker, I first espoused in 1966. Government has been much too reticent, much too slow in picking up the idea.", "It claims that it has difficulty in getting landlords who are willing to go into the rental subsidy scheme, to lease their properties to the government of Ontario. I think that is hollow talk, Mr. Speaker. They could approach the many senior citizens who live in satisfactory accommodations but can’t afford them because of the high rental. They could approach those landlords and I’m positive they could come to some accommodation so that the senior citizen would stay in those accommodations, be satisfied, and government in turn may not have to accelerate a senior citizen housing programme.", "I make mention of senior citizens; I could likewise make mention, Mr. Speaker, of the handicapped. I think it is time that government looked at those who are physically and otherwise handicapped, and provided for them, either on a co-op basis or some basis, accommodations the like of which they need. The government should consult with them in the building programme so that the accommodations provided for the handicapped meet with their approval -- and not only meets with their approval, but is satisfactory in terms of easy access and egress.", "Mr. Speaker, senior citizen accommodations in the city of Windsor have at one time been as high as 1,600. At present, and these are the statistics as of April 1 this year, 1,076 senior citizens have filed applications with Ontario Housing in the city of Windsor; 613 families have applied for housing accommodations; the total of the two comes to 1,689 families who have asked for accommodations in the city. That figure does fluctuate where the government has been doing a more substantial job, has been in family rental or in family geared-to-income housing, but not in senior citizen housing.", "One of the things that does disturb me very much, Mr. Speaker, is that although 1,076 senior citizens have applied, many have not applied because they know they don’t stand a snowball’s chance in Hades of ever getting accommodation and as a result forget about applying. They figure they won’t be too long for this world so why go ahead and take an added strain and burden on their own heart hoping that maybe they would have their last dream in life come to fruition.", "Of the 1,076 senior citizens who have applied, Mr. Speaker, the Windsor Housing Authority has not even investigated 753 as to whether their cases are genuine or whether their cases are extremely serious. When three-quarters of those who have asked for senior citizens housing do not even have an investigator from Ontario Housing, that is the Windsor Housing Authority in the city, look into their problem, then you wonder what this government is doing concerning the needs for these individuals. They certainly aren’t as concerned as they should be, Mr. Speaker.", "I maintain that one of the solutions to the problem is by vastly expanding the rent subsidy programme so that many who are satisfied with the accommodations in which they live today could still stay there but have their rentals subsidized.", "You know, it is not fair, Mr. Speaker, to provide housing accommodation to some people who, either through political ability or through other ways, are able to get government geared-to-income accommodation, unlike others who are timid, shy, backward, or who are not as brazen as they probably should be in going into Ontario Housing and demanding accommodation. I think we should treat all of them in the same fashion.", "If you provide geared-to-income housing for one so that it has cost that individual only $45 or $50 a month, then that senior citizen living under the same financial umbrella, having the same finances with which to take care of himself, should have his rental subsidized to exactly that same degree. He should not be paying any more than $45 or $50 for housing accommodation whether he lives in geared-to-income housing or in the commercial housing market. The government has to expand its programme on the rent subsidy.", "Mr. Speaker, I could make extensive comments concerning shoddy workmanship in home construction. I could make comments concerning the need for a warranty programme on all types of construction so that the individual who purchases a home knows that he is buying what he thought he was buying at the time of purchase.", "I can recall, Mr. Speaker, bringing to the attention of the previous minister responsible for housing, problems concerning Elizabeth Gardens in the city of Windsor. I don’t intend to repeat them. The problem still remains there. The individuals who bought housing in this project were not satisfied with the construction and have had to fight all the time with the builder to get their problem resolved -- and the problem today is still not reserved." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. F. A. Burr (Sandwich-Riverside)", "text": [ "They haven’t got their mortgages yet." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "That’s right, they have been clamouring and clamouring to get their mortgages and they are still held up." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Burr", "text": [ "After two years." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "I don’t know whose fault it is, Mr. Speaker, but I think the Minister of Housing should look into this and see that that problem is resolved and resolved immediately.", "One of the problems in providing housing accommodation, Mr. Speaker, could be resolved if the government accepted the resolution originally passed by the city of London and endorsed by the city of Windsor as recently as March 18 of this year. That would enable the Ontario Municipal Board to shorten the interval of time between the passing of a zoning bylaw and the time at which construction starts. If that were taken care of, Mr. Speaker, some of the housing problems could be overcome.", "Mr. Speaker, I had intentions of speaking at quite some length concerning the place that mobile housing plays in resolving housing accommodation problems. I can recall in 1966 mentioning that there would have been the need for at least 10,000 mobile homes in the Province of Ontario, so the government of the day could have properly planned and maybe phased-in housing accommodation throughout the length and breadth of Ontario in a programmed fashion. The government was not interested in the mobile housing field.", "Yet, Mr. Speaker, the only chance that many residents in the Province of Ontario are going to have to own a home of their own, to have a place that they can call their castle, is by way of purchasing a mobile home. Government has to look into the mobile home field more seriously than it has done in the past." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)", "text": [ "That’s the problem, most of them don’t." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "Mobile home living is not tincan living. It is not trailer living. It is nice accommodation generally; the type of accommodation that the individual wants, at two stages in life, either at the retiring stage or in the early marriage stage where he needs limited housing accommodation and not the two- or three-bedroom accommodation.", "Mr. Speaker, the next topic that I wanted to mention is auto plant health hazards and overtime. Dr. Sidney Wolfe, the director of Health Research Group, a group funded by contributions to consumer advocate Ralph Nader, had presented to them a 43-page report of a two-year study.", "This two-year study of Michigan auto workers said that potentially fatal heart and lung diseases are more likely to hit foundry workers, machinists and metal workers, who are exposed to either dust, smoke and dirt, dangerous chemicals or forklift exhaust fumes.", "The 43-page report originally had been compiled by a Dr. Janet Sherman, a Detroit internist who for some two years studied 489 Michigan workers, 459 of them being auto industry workers. Her data were collected between January, 1970, and January, 1972; so there was a two-year study period.", "The conclusions of the report include five that I will bring to your attention, Mr. Speaker. The first is that workers exposed to dirt, dust and smoke have about a 50 per cent greater chance of having bronchitis and heart disease than workers not exposed to these elements.", "The second finding of the health study is that workers exposed to fumes from substances such as molten metal and hydraulic fluids face about a 40 per cent greater likelihood of getting bronchitis and heart disease than those not exposed.", "The third finding is that foundry workers have a 14 per cent greater chance of having bronchitis than non-foundry workers.", "The fourth is that machinists have a 30 per cent greater chance of having heart disease than non-machinists.", "And the last that I’ll mention is that coarse metal finishers have a 70 per cent greater chance of getting heart problems.", "Mr. Speaker, in addition, this report showed that persons exposed to exhaust fumes from forklift trucks in plants have a 15 per cent greater chance of getting heart disease.", "I bring this to your attention, Mr. Speaker, because in the past week or so the Chrysler workers walked off their jobs as a result of what I understand were some of the safety aspects concerning the job, in addition to their demand for the elimination of overtime. I have shown to you, sir, that industrial factory work has greater health hazards than is generally accepted.", "The workers who walked out were not only concerned with their health, they were concerned with the excessive use of overtime. I think that the Minister of Health (Mr. Miller) has to look at the overtime picture in the auto industry, especially to- day, when there are so many unemployed in towns associated with the auto industry.", "In the city of Windsor there are over 3,000 who are unemployed in the auto industry, in addition to those who would be working in feeder plants. While we have a large number of unemployed -- and I think the number is well over 7,000 if we count in non-auto workers -- while we have as many as 7,000 unemployed in the city, I can’t see why there should be the need for the use of overtime. In fact, there has been formed in the community a committee on full employment. This committee is chaired by a gentleman by the name of Cleveland McGee, a laid-off Ford worker; and the committee’s work is being supported by the Windsor and District Labour Council.", "I happen to know Cleveland McGee personally, because in his younger days he happened to be a gymnast that I had the opportunity of coaching, and an extremely accomplished one at that, who did not further his education but preferred to serve his country and come back and became an auto worker. Now Cleveland McGee, the spark plug behind the group, is extremely concerned with this excessive use of overtime, as are not only those who are laid off but also those who are working in the plant.", "The 300 people who recently walked out of the Chrysler plant did not walk out simply because they were, it was said, told to walk out by one of their union stewards. They were extremely concerned. They were concerned for their fellow worker who is on the unemployed list while the factory continually asks the Ministry of Labour to issue overtime work permits.", "I think there has to be some association between the numbers of unemployed in the community and the issuing of additional overtime work permits. I think the Ministry of Labour has to consult with the union involved to find out if the union will accept additional overtime. While we have large numbers of unemployed in any community, not only in the community from which I come, Mr. Speaker, the issuance of overtime permits should be an exception and not the rule.", "Mr. Speaker, in one of the comments concerning the issuing of overtime permits, a fellow asked, “How easy are they to get?” and here was the reply: “Apparently they are easier to get than a newspaper.” I hope that isn’t the position of the Ministry of Labour in giving work permits while people are walking the lines seeking employment throughout the length and breadth of the community, knowing full well that their opportunity or their chance of getting employment is extremely slim.", "Mr. Speaker, the companies have a responsibility at this time of growing layoffs in the auto industry to sit down with the union and to clearly define needs for any overtime in any case. The failure of the company to come along and consult with the union and minimize its requests for overtime and not hiring additional workers to take up this slack, I think is only asking for trouble in the auto industry. We don’t want to see any trouble in there but I think, Mr. Speaker, the government has to be a little more cautious concerning the use of overtime for the auto worker in my own community.", "Mr. Speaker, while I’m talking concerning the auto industry, I think it would be only fit and proper to make mention that the auto trade agreement needs some re-examination. I think the re-examination of the agreement should be in consultation with the unions, who are involved, who know the problem, who point out to government that quite often some of the so-called Canadian content that is in the manufacture of an automobile is simply three holes punched in a panel in Canada, with the article coming in from the United States or coming in from a foreign country, slipping through one door in a Canadian plant, out the other door and then going over to the US and being labelled, so I am told, as Canadian content.", "Mr. Speaker, there is the need for a commission on technological change to monitor the impact of technology on employment opportunities and to have the authority to protect jobs. Industry keeps promoting technological change and the more technological change that does take place the fewer the job opportunities.", "There is the need for a job security programme and you are only going to have this if you have some committee on technological change that has teeth in it and can enforce -- yes, can enforce -- a job opportunity programme.", "Mr. Speaker, we have gone by the day where we are going to think always of a balance of payments; the fact that we in Canada have exported to the United States or another country $4 billion worth of merchandise and we’ve imported $4 billion or $5 billion worth of merchandise. I think the dollar and cents approach is passé.", "We’ve got to forget about it and look now on how many jobs we have exported and how many jobs we have imported. You can have one massive part of a body of an automobile, the whole floor panel or the whole roof, Mr. Speaker. It’s a big piece, so to speak. There may be three minutes of labour involved in the processing of that in an auto industry plant but we can have a little thing like a wrist watch that might have hours of labour involved.", "We’ve got to get away from the dollar and cents point of view. We’ve got to look at how many jobs we have imported and how many jobs we have exported. We have to come along, Mr. Speaker, through the Minister of Labour (Mr. Guindon), and know exactly the job content of every item manufactured. Industry knows that. Industry can provide us with the figures. Industry knows how many minutes it takes to manufacture one little stamping. In their bids to have suppliers supply them with the part, they know to the second, so to speak, how much labour content is involved in the manufacturing of that piece, plus the assembling of that piece to make the larger component.", "In an attempt to arrive at a balance in our auto trade agreement, Mr. Speaker, we have to know how many hours of labour have been put in in Canada on the manufacture of the automobile and how many hours of labour have been put in on that same part coming into Canada, either for assembly or for additional work, and then re-exported to the United States for assembly over there.", "We’ve got to look at the job content, the man-hour content or the hour content of everything that we manufacture, so that our balance of payments between countries is not in dollars and cents only but is -- in how many jobs we have exported when we export the material and how many jobs we have imported when we import the finished material. Were we to know the job content we would find that our balance of payments, not in dollars and cents but in jobs, would be really to the detriment of the Canadian worker. We export our raw materials but we import our finished product. How many more Canadians and Ontarians would be employed were we to take the raw material and process it here in Canada, and, not only process through one of the stages but process it through the finished stage. We have to look at the auto trade agreement, not from a dollar and cent point of view, but a labour content point of view so that our export as far as labour is exactly the same as our import, or as close as possible to what we would like to see.", "Mr. Speaker, the third topic that I would like to really talk on is the bill that I had introduced last year and that was Bill 179, An Act to establish an Ontario Waste Disposal and Reclamation Commission. This was on the order paper last year. It got first reading but that’s as far as it got. I didn’t see the ministry come along and do anything concerning it. I didn’t see them refute or attempt to refute the merits of such a proposal. It’s easy to conclude that our present method of garbage disposal represents a destruction of resources accompanied by economic, environmental and possibly public health damage. A new method of garbage handling is needed that is not harmful to the environment and that at the same time conserves and recycles some of the reusable ingredients of garbage.", "Mr. Speaker, I proposed last year that the province establish an Ontario waste disposal and reclamation commission that would operate on the same basis as Ontario Hydro. In other words, it would become a provincial authority or a provincial utility. This commission would be responsible for all waste disposal in the province including sanitary landfill and incineration. However, before disposal, the garbage would be processed in a plant for reclamation of paper, metals and glass, and the commission then could market the reclaimed materials to industry for recycling.", "Mr. Speaker, many municipalities would find it extremely difficult to set up their own reclamation plants because of the great financial burden involved. Therefore, the province should have the responsibility of setting up these plants on a regional basis. It’s estimated that processing 200,000 tons of waste annually would make the operation of such a plant economically feasible. In regions and towns where waste collection procedures are uneconomical for local authorities the commission would provide collection services as well. In more densely populated regions and municipalities, collections would continue to be provided by local authorities but disposal and reclamation would be provided by the commission. I think, Mr. Speaker, the Ministry of the Environment has a responsibility to look into this and to act.", "On Feb. 21, one of the articles in the Windsor Star said, “New Wonder Fuel -- Would You Believe It? -- Garbage.” Surely if the ministry followed the suggestion that I have made, not only could they reclaim a lot of material but you could have watts from waste. The city manager in the city of Windsor has been looking forward to gold in garbage. He, an extremely astute man, is looking to the fact that garbage can provide revenue to a community.", "In fact, to show the revenue it can provide, on Jan. 30 in the Detroit Free Press a column under the byline of Sylvia Porter, a well-known journalist, talks about “Recycling -- a Way To Combat Shortages.” In Hempstead, Long Island, she writes, where a city ordinance makes all solid wastes the property of the city, more than $100,000 was netted by the community within one year from the collection and sale of waste paper and other recyclable scrap materials. In Fort Worth, Tex., two garbage trucks make once-a-week collection of old newspapers in various neighbourhoods. It is estimated that an income of $250,000 annually will be obtained from this waste paper sale alone without any additional capital outlay on the city’s part. This is at the price of $9.50 a ton for waste paper, and I understand waste paper today is well over $25 a ton." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Sixty-five dollars." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, to bring to your attention the amount of materials that are discarded and not reclaimed, we find that only 49 per cent of our aluminum scrap is recycled; 42 per cent of our lead is recycled; 17 per cent of our textiles; 26 per cent of our steel; 61 per cent of our copper, but 88 per cent of our stainless steel and 75 per cent of our precious metals. You can see, Mr. Speaker, that we’ve a long way to go in reclaiming and recycling many or the materials that have been discarded. In Wisconsin, the state Legislature is on the way to passing a law that would create a solid waste recovery authority to initiate and manage a state-wide recycling programme.", "Mr. Speaker, how about Ontario? Are we leaders or are we followers? And if we are followers, how far behind do we follow?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman (Minister of the Environment)", "text": [ "We’ve been leaders for a long time in the province of Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "I beg the minister’s pardon?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "We’ve been leaders for a long time in the Province of Ontario and the member knows it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Leaders of the western world." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "Leaders of the western world. I imagine that if --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "If the member is interested in our programmes he can read about them." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "If the government is a leader, it is leader of the gab, but as far as action is concerned, there is little action over there." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "How about the housing programme? This government builds by headlines, that’s all." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "The government members aren’t even interested in coming into the House to get educated and to learn something as to what other jurisdictions are doing.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "Well, we’ll see what the government will do concerning pollution, Mr. Speaker. We’ll see how quickly the Minister of the Environment will take care of the transboundary pollution, whether he will put a monitor next to the Ford Motor Co. foundry in the city of Windsor to give the true reading to the people who live in that area -- not a fictitious reading, saying regarding the pollution in that area that, “Well, we’ll average it out for the whole city.” If the minister lived behind the foundry and saw the amount of pollution that has been coming from there, then he would talk with a different tone." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "Is that where the member lives?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "The minister is so blooming new to the game --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Ruston (Essex-Kent)", "text": [ "He’ll deliver everything in Ontario South." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "I’ll say to the minister, through you, Mr. Speaker, that he has a long way to go. He has got the right name; he has got the right last name." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "A new man." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)", "text": [ "Don’t pull that old gag --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "And we hope that he will be just as his name implies -- a new man, a new individual concerned with the environment and hoping to resolve the problem. Let’s get at the recycling of waste products. Let’s get at the reclamation of these waste products. Ontario is ahead of the game. If you look at it from the other end they are at the head, but you have got to go to the back end to find that, Mr. Speaker.", "I wanted to bring up a few minor topics -- I shouldn’t say minor topics, but topics at which I won’t spend much time. First, I am waiting for the Ministry of Transportation and Communications to come through with a bus colour proposal, as well as regulations concerning the number of people who can be accommodated in a bus, especially when it comes to school buses. Surely after the one year that the ministry has had the proposal, the minister should by now have been able to introduce legislation controlling the colours of buses.", "We have school buses that are sold to construction companies. The construction companies don’t bother changing the colour. They are driving along our highways; students are waiting at the comer, assuming that that is the school bus; they walk into the road thinking the bus is going to stop for them and that they are going to get on the bus. Lo and behold, too late they find out that this is a construction company bus, it is not a school bus. They have been misled by the colour. As a result unfortunate mishaps have taken place in the province. I can recall one where a young student was killed; that was in the Essex county area.", "I think it is time, Mr. Speaker, that the chrome yellow colour is used exclusively for school buses. When school buses are sold, they should not be allowed to be used by any concern or organization before the colour has been changed. The colour must be changed before the ministry issues a permit to use that bus to the purchaser.", "Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Ministry of the Environment has looked into the dumping of mercury-contaminated lake sludge on to an island in the St. Clair River. It’s an American island, not a Canadian island; we have no jurisdiction over it. But perhaps the dumping of that mercury contaminated sludge is going to affect water quality along the Lake St. Clair and the Detroit River where water intake pipes are located for many of the cities or towns in the area. If that is going to adversely affect our water supplies, then I think the ministry should have its people look into this and should make strong objections to what is taking place." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. Newman", "text": [ "We already have." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. B. Newman", "text": [ "I commend the minister for it if he has; I hope it was after I brought it to his attention. Well, I am pleased that he has because I think he has done the right thing there.", "Mr. Speaker, I could come along and talk on a whole series of other topics, but there are others who would like to speak. I would like at this time simply to say, Mr. Speaker, I am awfully pleased to see you in the chair. We hope that this will be a permanent appointment. We will see to it that if you aren’t there after the next election, you will be along the front benches anyway when we do form the government. At this time I would like to say, Mr. Speaker, I will make the balance of my comments in the budget debate. Thank you very much." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. Sargent (Grey-Bruce)", "text": [ "Madam Speaker, I would like to say that the three-cornered hat wouldn’t look good on you in that chair. I do want to say to you that you have become the chair. In this opportunity I have to speak in the Throne debate --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "The member has become the Speaker. I am not sure about becoming the chair." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "One could say the chair becomes the Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "It is a matter of opinion, and how one says it. I do want to say I welcome the chance to add my remarks to the kind remarks all members have made about the Speaker. I believe every one of the speakers here has sincerely conveyed his warm feelings for our referee and we are glad he is back.", "One time I sent a note across the House to John Robarts about his pending operation. In a note he said: “I don’t think I ever told you that when I was in the hospital three or four years ago I received a letter saying, ‘Dear Mr. Robarts, I hope your illness is not trivial’.”", "I am glad the Speaker is back in good health. In view of our differences from time to time I will say that I tip my hat to him as a politician and I tip my heart to him as a friend. I do mean that. I think we all feel that way toward him. I think he is one hell of a guy to put up with the things he does in this House.", "Also, if I may, Madam Speaker, I want to convey my best wishes to the member for Nipissing (Mr. R. S. Smith), who is in the House tonight. I am glad to see him back in good form.", "Usually a speaker starts his speech by saying that he is glad to be here. Well, after what has happened to me in the past year, I am glad to be anywhere. Getting on to my speech here, I would like to say at the outset that I am going to forego the fact of being non-political tonight. I think I will be a bit biased in my remarks." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "No!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. C. E. McIlveen (Oshawa)", "text": [ "Shame!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "I am going to talk about some of the things members know about and some of the things they don’t know about and some of the things people in this province are thinking and talking about.", "The other day I was in Chicago and I picked up the Chicago Tribune, the newspaper there, and the masthead says:", "“This newspaper is an institution developed by modern civilization to present the news of the day, to foster commerce and industry, to inform and lead public opinion and to furnish that check upon government which no constitution has ever been able to provide.”", "Gentlemen, more and more in Ontario this check is needed on government today. The press, believe me, is the sole auditor of expenditures and performance in this province. It is the sole auditor. I pay tribute as an individual, as a citizen, to the Globe and Mail and Norman Webster for their objective reporting, to seek out corruption in this organized crime we have here in Queen’s Park." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Shulman (High Park)", "text": [ "And Gerald McAuliffe, the reporter." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. L. Maeck (Parry Sound)", "text": [ "That used to be the opposition." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "I think, getting down to business here, we might as well get a few preliminary things out of the way such as giving the Premier (Mr. Davis) a bit of advice. For instance, he should have, in the Throne Speech, named Gerhard Moog as the most valuable player of the year." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. McIlveen", "text": [ "He always spoke well of the member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "I suggest it is things like this which have prompted the Premier to go about the province making speeches such as he has made. The three-column headline in the Kitchener paper says, “Davis Pleads For The Defeat of Unruly Eddie Sargent.” He says he is going to spare no money or nothing to win", "Grey-Bruce. In support of that a month ago he brought down to Queen’s Park a very good friend of mine, my step-brother, and he, along with the Minister of Agriculture and Food (Mr. Stewart) and Mr. DeGeer, offered this step-brother of mine the post of the Minister of Agriculture and a blank cheque --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. A. Stewart (Minister of Agriculture and Food)", "text": [ "Come off it. That’s wrong, and the member knows it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "All right. I am glad the minister said that, because that’s what he told me. We are off and running now. Here we go." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "Step-brother is really hitting below the belt." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Well, this is the way we operate. He has a blank cheque and he has the post of Minister of Agriculture and Food if he wins Grey-Bruce. Well, I don’t think the name of Davis is going to help him very much up there." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "There’s no way he’ll win." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Worton", "text": [ "Heaven knows it isn’t going to help any." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Maybe the Premier will go up and help him." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "This may be the last speech in the Throne Speech debate that anyone of this House will make in this province --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "I hope so." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "I am sorry it is the last by the member for High Park if he means that. I really mean it. I am sorry --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "The member for Grey-Bruce may be here next year." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "He is a credit to the Legislature; I say that kindly." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Thank you very much." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "We need people like him in government, because God knows that mess over there needs somebody fearless to take a poke at it --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. McIlveen", "text": [ "We are all right here. We always speak well of the Liberals." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "But I suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that in view of the thrust of the Liberal Party today and the way that our leader is scoring across the province as well as our deputy leader and our House leader -- we have a new team here -- the Premier doesn’t want this to get into full gear. And I project and prophesy for the press, which loves to hear it, that there will be an election in June in Ontario --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. McIlveen", "text": [ "When did the member make up with his leader?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "-- so the doctor can start doing his homework.", "Last Friday, Mr. Speaker, I objected to the do-nothing policy of this government insofar as it concerns all the trucking companies in this province writing a blank cheque for freight rates. Every trucking company in this province writes its own ticket. We in the Grey-Bruce area have no railroads, so we are dependent on the trucking business. And all of these lines that have monopoly routes write their own freight rates and naturally, as we all know across the province, this reflects in the cost of living. It is a shocking thing that this government will not take the steps to right this wrong.", "On top of this we have the situation of monopoly routes, exclusive routes across the province. No one can get excited about this, Mr. Speaker, but this is a billion-dollar business -- and this is probably costing every consumer of this province hundreds of dollars a year in extra costs because of trucking rates. They should be brought into line and the prices reviewed like every other commodity, because transportation is a basic commodity." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "A hundred miles is 100 miles." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Right. I questioned the ethics of the former Highways Minister, Mr. MacNaughton, sitting as a director of Laidlaw Transport and appearing before the Highway Transport Board, of which he was formerly the head. I questioned the ethics of former Premier Robarts appearing as a counsel for Dominion Consolidated before the Highway Transport Board. The Premier didn’t know how to answer me, so he said, “I suggest that the member check his own ethics.”", "Well, one thing I am sure of is that the people in my area know that my ethics in politics are pretty good." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. McIlveen", "text": [ "He hasn’t got any." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "I am not here being a good guy, but I can tell you, Mr. Speaker, that I will stack mine against the Premier’s any time, especially in view of what I am going to bring before you." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. McIlveen", "text": [ "Don’t ask us to vote on it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Let’s look at this man who questions my ethics. I have thought for the past few months that the goings-on in this Legislature and in this province could be the basis of a movie or a TV series." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "We could call it “Wojeck.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Well, we could; we could have a fearless guy like Wojeck -- but it is a story on organized crime in Queen’s Park. The simple facts are so incredible the people wouldn’t believe them. We should put on film all the factual knowledge we have here, even the “Hydrogate” inquiry -- reveal all the facts there.", "The series could open with our hero, the head of the state here, who makes a complete shambles of our educational system, costing us God knows how much -- maybe $500 million in school consolidation programmes. He inherits the political machine from a former premier, and he starts to shake down government contracts to his bagmen, to corporations who have or want government contracts. He has a real pork barrel fund, about $5 million we are told. And here in an upcoming election he does a saturation TV campaign, and sweeps to power again and again.", "After looking after the well-oiled machine, which he keeps greased with money from sales of government contracts, an unknown firm called Fidinam, which couldn’t pay a $1,500 account, a Swiss firm, all of a sudden gets a $10 million loan and a $20 million contract to build the Workmen’s Compensation Board building. This happens because they pay their bagman $50,000. When asked about this, the president of the company said, “No way. It’s not true.” But when they produced the cheque he admitted it was true.", "Here we have the party which runs this province engaged in a criminal act, for which, if under American law, the leader would be impeached. But the Premier immediately starts to guard this thing off. As a citizen -- I’ll interrupt this in the scenario here -- I spent about $700 in legal fees trying to take an injunction against the Workmen’s Compensation Board to block the loan of $10 million to Fidinam. The Premier, seeing that this was going to be a hot issue in the opening of the House, decided to do some- thing about it.", "I got up in the House at the opening of the House and tried to forego the hearings of the sittings of the House to ask for a special inquiry into Fidinam. I was booted out by the good Sergeant-at-Arms, rightfully so I guess, if the government’s going to carry on with this. The Premier immediately brings in a conflict-of-interest bill. In no way would that conflict-of-interest bill ever have appeared here if Fidinam hadn’t happened.", "We now have him lily pure again. He is going to stop all this hanky-panky and smelling of corruption. Now he’s a good guy again." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. W. Ferrier (Cochrane South)", "text": [ "He’s clean again." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "He’s clean again. But he still has the $50,000. I already bet him $50,000 if he would reveal where he got the $5 million -- that if any one of those government contracts being held by people who supply money to the party were announced there I would give him $50,000, but he wouldn’t even listen to that.", "We have the Premier whose legal firm acts as counsel for Mr. Moog. Here’s where this television thing comes in great. This Mr. Moog is a former U-boat commander, a romantic figure. The Premier and he decide to go to Europe to raise some money for the Hydro building. It’s going to be a $44 million deal; it’s a big deal. They don’t worry about the calling of tenders. They end up in Switzerland; they get into a few bottles of wine according to the hearing and they decide to race down to their interview at the bank to get the money. They have a flat tire, and in fixing it they get their clothes soiled a bit. They race to keep their appointment and they have trouble getting into the bank because of their appearance, but finally they get into the inner sanctum of the bank, and the rest of the episode is well known.", "The Premier didn’t want to stay at the other end of the room, he stayed at this end of the room, and they talked German down there when they talked about the financing. Anyway, the big project gets under way and no one else has a shot at the tenders.", "Now, I think that this would make a beautiful television series. Some of us should get into the act and produce that, because it would have top TV ratings, I believe." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "The National Dream." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "We will form a company." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Well, the member for Scarborough Centre wanted to be televised during his part of the Throne Speech debate. Now, that is one thing I wouldn’t want, because I don’t come across very well. But if the people in Ontario could see what the hell goes on in this place, that gang wouldn’t be there very long, I’ll tell you that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "“Laugh-In” would be out of business." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Maeck", "text": [ "Don’t forget that --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "So you see what I am trying to say is that if ever there was a time when the people needed a new deal in this province, it is now." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Right. Right on." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "I believe that people of this province have had enough, enough.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "The member would give them the fast shuffle, wouldn’t he?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Now, with President Nixon and Watergate, we have a very close pal of Premier Davis and his “Hydrogate.” Let’s have a look at President Nixon and his position.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "I believe if there is an evidence of an impeachable offence the Congress will impeach, if not, they will exonerate. I think we all agree that impeachment is a cumbersome thing and much as I feel that he is a disgrace to his office, I hope for the sake of the American people that they do not impeach him.", "But I believe that in this province the people have made in their own minds a political judgment. We don’t want a runaway process. In the USA and Ontario the people have received a great education in the past year. People in their own minds can render a judgement. As with President Nixon, Premier Davis is fast losing his credibility. I believe sincerely that there is an intuitive reaction on the part of people that things are not right, that there is and has been corruption.", "I want to say right now I don’t for one moment think there is a crooked bone in the Premier’s body, but I think the machine is corrupt -- at least part of the machine. If anyone had said a year ago that President Nixon, with his landslide victory, would be up for impeachment, that he would go on television and say “I am not a crook;” if anyone had prophesied that one year ago, he would’ve been called a lunatic.", "But here we have two leaders who place themselves above government, above the law; there is complete abuse of power. And what we lack in our process here is a method to bring these people to heel, because in every election the combined forces of the Liberals and the NDP defeat each other. And they will continue to do so. If we ever heard of a banana republic in South America having 35 years of solid government, we wouldn’t believe it, but it’s happened right here in this province.", "Certainly the Premier is the sole authority on what will be investigated and what will not be investigated. A case in point, the Fidinam affair. We have ample evidence of criminal activity and criminal procedures which should be handled by the political process. We have ample evidence of the Premier holidaying in Muskoka, holidaying in Florida, cruising on Mr. Moog’s yacht, going to Europe to raise a loan, and so on, as I mentioned before.", "But I suggest to you the big ball game now is not the $44 million that Mr. Moog and the Premier were involved in. The big ball game now is the $15 billion nuclear programme and the vested interests the government is working with now on Hydro.", "We have 100 people working in the Premier’s office, more than Mr. Trudeau has. His office costs more than that of the Prime Minister of Canada. Who does he think he is? What right does he have to spend our money like this?", "The Globe and Mail carried a story this week on what’s going on in Ontario spending. There has been a jump of 37 per cent in government payrolls for ministries, for those people who have the power to sign these documents. They increase their expenditure of moneys 37 per cent. It isn’t their money, it belongs to the taxpayers." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "The Minister of Labour hasn’t an assistant yet." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "I think there are here, in this summary, four people making more than $50,000 a year, plus expenses, and there are hundreds making more than $30,000 a year. And to save time I will not read the amounts here.", "But I want to say, in summary of this point I’ve been on now, of these things I’ve talked about, Mr. Speaker, regardless of the verdict, the whitewash in the Hydrogate hearing, the people know exactly what is going on.", "A summary in the Sun some time ago by Brian Vallee was talking about the vacuum cleaner that the Premier had working here. It says: “Bill Davis brought out his vacuum cleaner yesterday, but he missed part of the dirt.”", "It goes on to show how he went through the cabinet and how he cleaned out all the skulduggery, the conflicts of interest, and mentions about 10 or 12 ministers who went down the pipe here. Then he says, at the final paragraph: “One wonders if Davis himself would have been sucked into the vacuum cleaner if he wasn’t the one who was operating it.”", "Well, you can believe that one. He would have been the first one to go!", "We are talking now in this country about the gas and oil shortage. What a bunch of baloney this is. I was coming back from New York, first class, American, about a month ago, and I sat with the vice president of one of the four major oil companies in Canada. He confided to me that there was no oil shortage, no gas shortage. In effect he said: “The ball is in our court now. The oil companies are all on strike against the public, and we’re going to get ours first. All of our refineries are full, all the ships are full, all the cars are full. There is no oil shortage.” And I think it’s a shocking thing -- here he comes, well oiled!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. Cassidy (Ottawa Centre)", "text": [ "The hon. member for Scarborough Centre (Mr. Drea) has arrived.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "I think it’s a shocking thing that we have the power in this government -- pardon me?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "I was talking about oil, so it’s all right. We have the power, Mr. Speaker, in this government to control prices. To me it is a scandalous thing when these companies --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "Come on, the member doesn’t believe that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "-- experiencing the largest profits in history -- from 45 per cent to 70 per cent increase in profits over last year -- can be given the right to increase their prices by six to 10 cents a gallon. This is a shocking situation. I believe that Trudeau is right, that we do need a national oil company. We do need some stake in this great commodity if transportation is to continue in this country.", "Mr. Speaker, at the risk of being on the wrong side of the fence once again, to me it is shocking that this government of Ontario is hell bent in a nuclear development programme. Committed as we are to and involved in a $16 billion programme, we are shooting craps with destiny.", "Today, the member for Huron made a splendid address on the dangers of nuclear power, and I wish that those fellows had been here to hear it. I know you can’t be everyplace. But I was talking to the member for Ottawa West (Mr. Morrow) today, Mr. Speaker, and back in the House a few years ago, when a member got up to speak, the House was here to hear him. When you made a speech in the Legislature it meant something --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. R. Smith (Hamilton Mountain)", "text": [ "We’re listening to the member though." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "-- because you had rapport with the press. But the only things that get in the press today are these sensational things, the things that count. You may criticize us backbenchers for talking so long, but we have something to say. We are in here to speak for our people, and that’s why we speak." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "Well, say it!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Come on, he’s getting to the member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "We’re in a programme for development of energy, in which, Mr. Speaker, no insurance company in North America will insure anyone, any place, or any property, or anything against radiation damage.", "Now this is a fact. The insurance companies here watched the growth and burgeoning of the nuclear power, and have lost no time in taking steps to protect their industry. They have, Mr. Speaker, specifically planned to protect the insurance industry against the nuclear power industry. I ask anyone in this audience, in Hansard and in Ontario to check their insurance policies and they will see that there is a complete exclusion from the hazards of nuclear power.", "In Douglas Point we have had two gas leaks. Two years ago they made a $1-million mistake and they would have covered it up but I found out by accident about this $1-million mistake. I revealed it in the Legislature and they denied it here, but finally they admitted there was a $1-million mistake. They are now building huts to protect the people up there and they are closing a park because of fallout and radiation and the odours and dangers.", "Yet, Mr. Speaker, I asked the Minister of Energy here in the House about the fact that the officials of Atomic Energy of Canada Ltd. have refused to meet scientists on a TV show and let the public know the facts and the hazards. The problem with nuclear radioactivity is that as much long-lived radioactivity is produced in one large nuclear power plant every year as there is in the explosion of about 1,000 Hiroshima bombs. And when we say long-lived radioactivity, we mean long. Some kinds last for 100 years, 300 years and even 240,000 years before decaying fully.", "Get this, Mr. Speaker, unprotected, above- ground, nuclear power plants, loaded with radioactivity in their cores, would certainly be large liabilities if this country were ever under attack. They seem to make this country virtually indefensible. Quite aside from the sabotage, an accident allowing just one per cent of the inner radioactivity to escape from one plant, would put as much harmful contamination directly into the environment as 10 bombs. It would not be spread out all over the globe like a bomb’s fallout, it would be all concentrated in just a few areas.", "Instead of the government preventing this extraordinary possibility, when we observe, Mr. Speaker, that the government allowed harmful conditions to develop in our air and water -- for example, Lake Erie’s contamination from other pollutants -- then it is clear that citizens had better not count on the government to prevent nuclear pollution for them either. It is time that this government told the people the truth of the dangers we are faced with.", "Above and beyond all this, we are committed to a $15-billion programme. I’m not talking $15 million, I’m talking $15 billion. The interest upon this, alone is $3 million a day. Here we are. We are now committed to an $8-billion debenture debt in this province. The interest on this is about $2.50 million a day. Now we are going to jump to another $3 million a day interest on this. It is no wonder the Minister of Energy, in his offer to start sharing the profits with his friends, wants to share some of the load here.", "On April Fool’s Day, last Monday, the Minister of Energy said in the Toronto Star that he wants a consortium between Union Gas, Consumers’ Gas, GE, Acres -- all of these firms now feeding at the public trough fairly handsomely -- he wants to give them a piece of the action. Isn’t that just dandy?", "In the first column he says: “It’s good Tory philosophy.” Good Tory philosophy. On the drunken spending spree that they are now on he admits: “Although we aren’t broke, our credit is going to be drained.”", "Let me tell the minister something. He can get these corporations into the act and they will raise the hydro rates across this province pronto. But this is a public commodity and I say he should leave it alone.", "Since Adam Beck was in the act 68 years ago --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. F. Drea (Scarborough Centre)", "text": [ "Ask the Minister of Government Services (Mr. Snow) how much it cost to have his restaurant." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "-- we’ve spent hundreds of millions of dollars of hard-earned taxpayers’ money to create Ontario Hydro and an arrogant wheeler-dealer like the Energy Minister wants to share this package with his friends, the big boys, in the corporate group.", "I was on the Hydro commission for 15 years in Owen Sound." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "Why doesn’t the member ask how much it cost to have the power line to his restaurant?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "What’s the member’s problem?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "Why doesn’t the member ask the minister how much it cost to have the power line through to his restaurant? With that question, don’t ask him." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I was on the Hydro commission for 15 years and I saw how firms like GE and Westinghouse took the people of this province by their price-fixing. We’ll have no more of it as far as I’m concerned.", "To say the least, this story of the Minister of Energy -- with a picture there -- saying that he is going to open the doors of Hydro to private business, is I think a scandalous admission. It’s scandalous that he says that secret negotiations are now going on with these large firms to share this whole package with private concerns. Any one of the members, whether he sits with the government or among the opposition, should be concerned about the unlimited powers that this man has. As a taxpayer I think it’s time that someone should take action against him to block it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "Why doesn’t the member ask the Minister of Government Services?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "I’m going to try and respect the time factor here." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. V. M. Singer (Downsview)", "text": [ "The minister pretends he can’t hear." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "What’s happening in this great province of ours, the most dynamic province of our confederation? We have an $8 billion debenture debt. BC and Alberta are debt-free. Now the Treasurer is looking for another $15 billion. He’s going to have another big $700 million deficit this year probably." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "The Treasurer is aware of that. That’s why he’s going. He’s packing it in." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "We’re paying about $2.5 million in interest now. We’re committed to a $1.5 billion transit programme, a $1 billion land acquisition programme and no state in America -- and the Treasurer knows it -- is in such bad shape as this province of Ontario.", "Who’s laughing? How can you spend $6 million a day in interest and not be in trouble and the Minister of Energy admits in the Star that we’re in trouble." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "The member’s got a conflict of interest. He’s got a liquor licence. Sit down." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "What’s happened to this province when a farmer can’t sell his own land? He’s paid taxes all his life on it -- and the Treasurer should know about that." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Tell him. Tell him." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "That’s small beans to a man like the Treasurer." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "And what happens when a small businessman can’t hire any help because a man can get paid more money on relief than he can working for a living? What happens when thousands of Canadian companies don’t pay any income tax?", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "What happens when all the taxation and assessments are controlled from Queen’s Park? And what happens when the municipalities we are elected to represent can only spend 15 cents on the dollar? Centralized control and we’re in one helluva mess." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Reid", "text": [ "That’s right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "I say it’s time -- and I have said it before -- that we made this a public trust instead of a public trough and that’s what it is tonight.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. R. Good (Waterloo North)", "text": [ "We couldn’t eat out of the public trust." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Let the member tell us about the eight million again." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Pardon?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Tell us about the eight million again; we liked it the second time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "A piece of the action." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "I have a few important things to say for us living in the air age. We do need a positive approach to air travel. We heard today that the government turned down the right to buy Tobermory airport. It was available at a bargain price but the government turned it down. There is no airport now in Tobermory. We have none in Owen Sound but the little State of Iowa --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. J. W. Snow (Minister of Government Services)", "text": [ "I thought there was one in Owen Sound?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Come on; the minister knows better than that." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Snow", "text": [ "Is it only for the member’s plane?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "He knows better than that. The little State of Iowa has a beautiful map; it has 63 communities with lighted airports, put in by the legislature, by government programmes. Every state in the United States has an air map but we have nothing in Ontario. I think there should be a consciousness on the part of the government about air travel. It is talking about closing down the Island airport." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "If there is nothing in Ontario it is because of the member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Last year the Island airport had a $300,000 operating loss and they are going to close it. That, to me, is the most valuable asset the city of Toronto has and the minister should know that. It’s a shocking thing that the city of Toronto, one of the proudest cities on the North American continent, can’t supply or afford a downtown airport. Here is the government drifting along, going to close it because it had an operating loss of $300,000. That’s one of the busiest airports in Canada and the minister knows it. We are doing nothing about it and I wish like hell that somebody would do something about it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "Put in a STOL programme." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "We need a positive programme.", "With regard to housing, I’ll be very brief -- there’s the time factor here. As I’ve said before, the costs of housing are mainly because of the red tape and bureaucracy. The editor of the publication Canadian Building says that a bureaucratic conspiracy is the reason for the scandalous hidden costs in the building industry. I mentioned today in the House that there are formats for getting project approval through in 90 days and I suggest this government should take a hard look at getting moving along this way.", "I’d like to talk briefly, in closing, about money." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "That would be a godsend." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "The member is great; he stays right in there and pitches.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "I can’t imagine why he would want to be on television. I can’t figure it out." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "The first time I’d get a freak-out like the member I’d be winning." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, freedom implies a series of choices; if one has no options, one is not free. This is particularly relevant to the management or mismanagement of money in this country. There are few options when one needs money in a hurry and usually they are unnecessarily painful. Money is or should be just another consumer item in our society and the manipulation of this economy, in a credit society, can no longer be successfully based on making money tight.", "When we have money available people are paying 10 per cent or 10 1/2 per cent for first mortgages; 13 to 14 per cent for a second mortgage; and trust companies are making the biggest profits in their histories. A $25,000 mortgage now will cost $103,000 by the time it matures. And hundreds and thousands of people in this province, while waiting for a better day, find themselves paying 18 per cent while trying to regain their solvency. It’s a dead-end street." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "What is the member charging for a drink?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Yet the largest bank in the world really owns nothing. We found that out in our depression; when people took their money out of the banks, the banks went broke. We should use our Province of Ontario Savings Offices to knock these Shylocks out of business and give the people money loaned to them at a decent rate. But now we are charging everybody 18 per cent across the board." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "That’s my speech." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I feel I am losing rapport with the member for Scarborough Centre." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "That’s my speech." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "He lost rapport with the member a long time ago." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Drea", "text": [ "It’s my speech. Give credit, eh?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "I would like to say, Mr. Speaker, I am sorry you weren’t here. I am glad to see you well and hearty. I yield the floor to my colleague here.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)", "text": [ "That, I must confess, was a bit of an anti-climax. I was waiting for the end." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "He didn’t drop the other shoe." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "I suppose I am the anti-climax. The leader for the Liberal Party says so, and he always is right, because it depends on who one believes whether he is always right or not. I notice the Premier doesn’t seem to think so." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "I thought he was the anti-climax for the Liberal Party." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have an opportunity to speak for a few moments in this debate. I want first of all to say to you, as other people have said, I am pleased to see you back. I am pleased to see you back for reasons that other perhaps won’t understand.", "I had moments of severe remorse in December when, after a confrontation in the House, I walked outside to give the Christmas message. Just prior to standing up, I discovered you had taken ill and had to be taken from the House. Frankly I wished that we hadn’t had quite the exchange we had had just immediately prior to that.", "I say to you now, as I have said to you privately, I am delighted that you are back in the chair to exercise your responsibilities in a way that no other in the House could, and I personally have no reservations about saying how pleased I am to have you as a Speaker.", "I can’t say the same about the government, unfortunately, that you belong to." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "Try hard. Give it the old college try." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "I would like to be able to extend to them the same kind of feeling, but frankly I can’t --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Gilbertson", "text": [ "Go ahead." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "-- because I have come to the conclusion, after watching for nearly seven years, that the kind of responsibilities which they exercise or which they seem to feel they ought to exercise are certainly not in keeping with what I believe." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "We are unbeatable. After seven years, we are unbeatable." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Before dealing with what I consider to be the major issues in the Throne Speech, I want to raise a couple of matters that are of purely local concern. They are matters which we in the Hamilton area have felt rather strongly about and which the government is going to have to pay some attention to in the near future or we are going to be faced with some major problems.", "The first relates directly to the people who live on what is known as the Hamilton beach strip. The people who live on the beach strip have been faced with a number of severe problems over the last five, six or seven years. Matters came to a head last year with the extremely severe flooding, which caused many of the septic systems in the area to cease functioning adequately and which caused many of the people to have an obvious loss in the value of the properties which they had owned and kept up for a good length of time.", "The government has indicated, Mr. Speaker, that there is the possibility that it might acquire the land on the beach strip in Hamilton as a public park. By making a statement such as that, it has placed the people who currently live there in a very invidious position. If it is the intention of the government to promote the development of a public park in that area, then it should state it categorically now and it should proceed with the acquisition of the properties. The people who are currently living there are finding it extremely difficult (1) to decide whether or not it’s worth their while to maintain and develop their properties and (2) to decide whether or not it’s worth their while financially to expend any additional moneys on septic systems in order that the properties can be used at an adequate level. Thirdly, people are finding it virtually impossible to acquire mortgages in the event that they want to sell the properties. Many of those who are currently in the field of providing mortgage funds are unwilling to provide additional funds for any of the properties on the beach strip because the future of the area and of the homes in the area is very uncertain, and therefore the people who are living there are gradually losing their equity and investment.", "The final point I want to make with regard to the beach strip is this, that there are a small number of businesses in that area that have served that particular community well. They have not been what one would call excessive in their profit taking. They have simply been a corner store operation that has provided access for people to the kinds of day to day foodstuffs and other commodities that they require, and because of the government’s inactivity and because there is a gradual erosion of the numbers of people who are currently on the beach strip those businesses are suffering immeasurably.", "I think the government has an obligation now to move into the area, to make it perfectly clear it is its intention to acquire all of the properties, to sit down with the business people and discuss what, in fact, is the real worth of the business and to come to some satisfactory arrangement as to compensation. I think we have waited long enough.", "I think the people in the area have been extremely patient and I feel that this government has an obligation now, if it is its intention to involve itself in the development of a park area in the beach strip of the Hamilton area, to do so with some forthright announcement and let’s begin the process and give the people a fair opportunity to return to themselves some of the equity and investment that they have.", "The second point I want to raise, Mr. Speaker, that is purely local, is with regard to regional government. If it is the government’s intention ever again to implement a regional government, I want to suggest that there are some lessons to be learned from the implementation in the Hamilton area. The major lesson that I see to be learned is that there has to be more lead time. If there is going to be a regional government set up then I strongly suggest that there be much more lead time available for the kind of determination that has to be taken by the regional municipality with regard to its responsibilities.", "The regional government of Hamilton-Wentworth is currently having considerable difficulty in trying to determine what its budget will be, trying to determine the scope of its operation, trying to decide what, if anything, will become solely regional, what if anything is going to be a shared responsibility and how the costs might be distributed throughout the area.", "I think that given that there were only two months before the actual implementation of the region legally from the time that the councillors were elected, and given that during that two-month period a great number of people had to be hired who were going to make the region operative, I can’t help feeling that it would be a very useful exercise if the government were to allow for the election in the spring of any given year, with the region not to become fully implemented until the first of the following year, and allow at least six months for the kinds of operational changes that have to take place.", "I think that that is one of the major problems with the region. I think that if this is ever to be done again, I hope to heaven that the government doesn’t do it the way it did the Hamilton one, but if it is ever done again I hope that it recognizes that it can’t be done in a two-month period and that there has to be some lead time available.", "Anyway, Mr. Speaker, to the Throne Speech. I want to say to you, sir, that I have always believed the government had a responsibility in four basic areas. Any time I have spoken in the House I have spoken about those four basic areas, because I believe that they are, in fact, the primary responsibility of any government worth its salt, and they fall into these categories:", "The government has a responsibility to ensure that people in the community over which it has jurisdiction are able to acquire food at a cost that they can afford. The government also has a responsibility to ensure that people who live in the community over which it has jurisdiction have an opportunity to acquire shelter at a cost that they can afford. The government further has a responsibility to ensure that people within its jurisdiction have an opportunity to acquire health care at a cost that they can afford. And finally, it has the same kind of responsibility with regard to the provision of education.", "I think it fair to say that if one were to analyse its actions over the past 10 or 15 years, he would come to the conclusion that the government has failed miserably if these are to be the criteria against which it is measured. I think it is fair to say that in three of the four areas the government has not exercised any of its responsibility at all. In the last area, whatever responsibility it did exercise, it certainly has fallen far short of what ought to have been done.", "I want tonight to deal with three of the areas: I want to deal with the cost of food in the Province of Ontario, and the rising cost of living in the Province of Ontario. I want to deal briefly with the problems of health.", "You will recall, Mr. Speaker, at the time my leader spoke in the Throne Speech debate he moved an amendment. That amendment said, and I want to read it to you:", "“That this government be further condemned for its failure to institute satisfactory actions in the following areas:”", "Under the heading “Inflation in the cost of living,” he went on to say that the government had failed to “investigate increases in profit to ensure no excess profit-taking.”", "That the government had failed to “establish a price and profit review tribunal with power to investigate every aspect of price increases and take whatever action is necessary to ensure no unreasonable increases, or to have selected increases rolled back.”", "That the government had failed “to establish a consumer protection code extending not only to marketplace transactions and commodities, but to the provision of services.”", "That the government had failed “to institute a province-wide warranty for home building standards.”", "That the government had failed “to institute a public automobile insurance programme.”", "And in the area of northern development, he went on to say the government had failed “to establish economic growth in northern Ontario based on the resource potential as a catalyst for secondary development.”", "And that the government had failed “to establish northern economic development and employment based on long-term secondary growth as a number one priority.”", "And that the government had failed “to recognize the massive economic disparity between northern and southern Ontario and the adverse effects of the two-price system in this province, and failure to take appropriate measures to bring about equality.”", "And under land use and urban growth, he said that the government had failed “to move immediately to acquire for the public sector sufficient land to meet the projected housing needs over the next 20 years.”", "And that the government had failed “to begin a house building programme aimed at producing at least 250,000 homes, both private and public, within 18 months.”", "And that the government had failed “to develop a land-use policy and overall development plan to meet recreational requirements in all areas of the province, with immediate emphasis in the ‘golden-horseshoe’ area.”", "And further, that the government had failed “to establish rent review and control measures.”", "And under employer and employee relations, my leader pointed out that the government had failed “to amend the Labour Relations Act to meet the legitimate request of the Ontario Federation of Labour as conveyed to all members of the Legislature.”", "And the government had failed to exercise its responsibility “by allowing conditions of work and wages for the hospital workers of Ontario to deteriorate to a substandard level.”", "And further, that the government had failed to exercise its responsibility “by creating a confrontation with teachers in this province and then failing to respond to the consequences” of its actions.", "And that the government had failed in its responsibility “by inflicting compulsory arbitration on Crown employees;” and that finally the government had failed “to legislate against strike-breaking in the use of firms and individuals to disrupt orderly, legal strikes.”", "And under the policy heading “income maintenance,” my leader pointed out that this government had failed “to institute an income maintenance programme to meet the legitimate needs of the elderly.”", "And that this government had failed to establish “adequate income levels for the disabled and other disadvantaged people in Ontario.”", "And under the heading of “health,” my leader pointed out that this government had failed “to provide a sufficient range of institutional facilities to ensure adequate health care at the lowest possible cost;” that it had failed “to institute dental and drug-care programmes;’ and it had further failed “to take initiatives which would upgrade the value of preventive medicine.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Why don’t those ministers who are here simply resign and let somebody else take over?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "And he then said in conclusion to his remarks --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. F. Laughren (Nickel Belt)", "text": [ "There is nowhere to go but up." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "It is absolutely shocking that this government can have that litany of failures and still sit there complacently in their places tonight." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "The leader of the New Democratic Party then said in concluding his remarks that the government had shown “gross negligence in its refusal to tax the resource industries of Ontario at a level which would allow individuals and families in this province to experience major relief from the inequitable and oppressive system of taxation presently in effect.”", "Mr. Speaker, there is no one in this House who would deny the accuracy of that litany. There is no one in this House who would claim that this government had, in fact, acted properly in any of those areas. There is no one in this House who could stand in his place and refute the statements made by the leader of the NDP at the time that he spoke in the Throne Speech debate." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Even the Tories admit it by acquiescence." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "And what we are faced with is a government that has brought in a Throne Speech completely inadequate to meet the needs of the people of the Province of Ontario, a government that has brought in a Throne Speech without any of the specifics which could by any stretch of the imagination be considered to be the kinds of programmes that we might need to have in order to correct the imbalances which currently prevail right across the spectrum of the people of the province." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "There are two ministers engaged in conversation and four engaged in studied indifference to what is being said. They can’t do their paper work in their offices during the day. They bring it into the Legislature at night and insult the members of the Legislature. Why don’t they put down their pencils and their papers and listen to what is being said about the government of the Province of Ontario?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "We heard it last year." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "It is interesting, Mr. Speaker, that the member for Timiskaming should say they had heard it last year, because little does he realize that that is exactly the problem. To have had to say it year after year after year and not get any response of any kind from this government is a clear indication of the government’s indifference toward the needs of the people of the Province of Ontario.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "The member for Timiskaming in an attempt to be humorous and comical obviously isn’t aware of the responsibilities of government. I don’t blame him. If I were to sit so far from the government, I doubt if I would be aware of it either." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "He was passed over again." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "Don’t worry about me." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "He is after the chairmanship of the ONR." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "There will be a vacancy there." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "Thank you for your support." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "I want to deal briefly, Mr. Speaker, with the area of housing, with the cost of living and with some problems of the aged, and then I intend to yield the floor.", "I want, first, to say, Mr. Speaker, that this government’s attitude toward housing is atrocious. The government in 1967, as my colleague from Wentworth North (Mr. Ewen) will well remember it, announced a great housing project in the Hamilton area. That housing project has yet to yield a single house. That project was announced in 1967 two weeks prior to the election. To this date some seven years later, there isn’t a single basement, there isn’t a single house and there isn’t a single thing that anyone could point to as being an indication of the government’s commitment toward housing.", "The government, first of ail, doesn’t recognize that a sizable portion of the people of the Province of Ontario live in rented accommodation, and that within the rented accommodation the people who are living there are very much at the mercy of the landlords. The landlords of the Province of Ontario, in spite of what they might say, appear to be in the business of maximizing profit regardless of the impact of their actions on the people who currently rent from them." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "The government is in a shambles." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "The city of Toronto has been faced in the last year --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Never has it been in such disarray as it is tonight." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "-- with increases which average 25 per cent in the area of apartment rental. The UDI, which represents or purports to represent a number of the rental accommodations in the Province of Ontario, had the gall to suggest to its members recently that they should be asking for a 10 to 12 per cent increase in rental this year. One wouldn’t mind too much, an increase of 10 to 12 per cent if that increase were justified. One wouldn’t mind too much the increase in the cost of rental accommodation if the increase were, in fact, legitimate. It wouldn’t be unacceptable if the increase reflected a legitimate and honest increase in the cost of providing the service and the accommodation. But the fact of the matter is that the increases that are being demanded --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Why doesn’t the Minister of Industry and Tourism go back to his office and do his work there?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "The junior achiever of Ontario is not accomplishing anything in here." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "-- are not justified and are not increases which reflect increases in cost, but are rather an attempt by the owners of apartments in the Province of Ontario to extract the maximum amount of money from their tenants without any consideration." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "The Minister of Agriculture and Food is getting credit for the highest prices in food." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "The junior achiever of Ontario is not accomplishing anything in here." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "The increases that are being demanded, Mr. Speaker, are not justified, are not increases which reflect increases in cost, but rather are an attempt by the owners of apartments in the Province of Ontario to extract the maximum amount of money from their tenants without any consideration --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "The Minister of Agriculture and Food --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "-- takes credit for the highest food prices that have ever existed in the Province of Ontario.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "The people are speaking to the government --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "-- without any consideration, as I say, for the ability of the people who live in the apartments to pay, or for that matter for the ability of the community as a whole to pay.", "I was interested in speaking with people at the landlord and tenant bureau, and I discover that by far the majority of the complaints which they receive are directly related to rent increases; that ranging upwards of 100 every week are complaints from people about unjustified, unsubstantiated rent in- creases in apartments in which they have been tenants for a long period of time. I had one brought to my attention which I think is absolutely atrocious and which this government has to recognize as being not the exception but the norm in the way in which apartment owners deal with tenants.", "An 88-year-old man who is in a position of being unable to move around freely received a notice from his landlord that his rent was going from $190 to $230 a month. And it’s not uncommon to find rent increases from $150 to $170, from $260 to $325, from $220 to $260 without the least bit of justification. Throughout the rental accommodation business we find that apartment owners are, without any consideration for their tenants, raising the rents, and the rents are being raised by 25, 30 and 50 per cent. It’s time that this government exercised its responsibility in the field and moved in and said, “No, not in the Province of Ontario.” It’s time that this government followed the example of the Province of British Columbia, or perhaps the Province of Manitoba, or maybe even the city of Halifax, which have all recognized that the kind of rent gouging that is going on right across this country -- it’s not unique to the Province of Ontario, it’s going on right across this country -- is unconscionable and unacceptable, and that it is not in keeping with the best practices of government or the responsibility of government to allow this kind of thing to occur within its jurisdiction." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "They even do it in Quebec." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "It is time for this government to face up to reality, and the reality is that unless you are prepared as a government to institute a tribunal before which those asking for rent increases must appear and justify their rent increases, we are going to see people gouged and more and more of their income taken in order to provide just basic shelter." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "That’s right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "I want to tell you the kind of justification that people get when their rents are increased, and I’ll read you a letter. It’s a letter sent out by Hillbrook Investments in Hamilton and it says:", "“Dear Mr. and Mrs. Whoever:", "“Please be advised that the current tenancy agreement on the above premises is hereby terminated by the landlord on its anniversary date. Due to unprecedented inflationary costs which have affected the residential rental industry since the rate was last determined and which show no sign of abatement, the monthly rental on the above stipulated premises beginning June 1 will be the amount of $130.” [This is an increase of $15 a month.]", "“A new tenancy agreement may be negotiated on request. The advantages to the tenant of any contract during an inflationary period are clearly obvious. However, the contract offered, as you may know, carries the added advantage of a $5 discount for prompt payment of rent. This discount cannot be claimed until a tenancy agreement is fully executed.” [And then comes the crunch clause, because this really aggravates me.]", "“When rent increases occur, most customers want to know what the extra dollars are buying. The answer, unfortunately, is next to nothing. Or to put it another way, the building in which you live would not be able to operate at all without increasing the number of now much smaller dollars you are requested to pay. Such is the unproductive nature of inflation. We have appreciated your tenancy and trust you will permit us to continue to serve you.”", "I want to say to the government that this is not justification for a rent increase. The gobbledegook that’s written in there is an attempt to hoodwink the people who live in the apartment building. It’s an attempt to justify a rent increase. It doesn’t say that the cost of heat and taxes has gone up by X dollars or that they have to absorb additional costs in maintenance or whatever. It simply places the responsibility in an area where the people have no opportunity to check it. And that should not be permitted in the Province of Ontario.", "If the government has any sense of responsibility at all toward the many thousands of people right across the province who are unfortunately tenants, then it has an obligation to institute a review board that will demand that people like Hillbrook Investments come before that review board and open their books and say, “These are the reasons why we have to ask for a rent increase.”", "In this time of rising inflation it is true, no doubt, that the costs of operating apartment buildings rise, as do the costs of all other things. But there is no reason at all why tenants should not be given the benefit of the same kind of information that home- owners have when they have to pay more to maintain and heat their properties and to pay more taxes.", "Homeowners know, as they receive their bills on a day-to-day basis, what it is that’s costing them more and why the cost of providing themselves with accommodation is rising. Tenants don’t have the benefit of that, and it’s time that this province woke up.", "It’s time that this government woke up and recognized that tenants are not second-class citizens and that they are entitled to the same kinds of privileges as everyone else in the Province of Ontario. And they should be given the kind of protection that ensures that no landlord, whether he lives in Toronto, Hamilton, Ottawa or any other place, is entitled to implement a rent increase without first showing the justification for it.", "Beyond that, it’s time that we had a standard lease form in the Province of Ontario. A standard lease form in the Province of Ontario should be brought out by this government and should be in mandatory use for all rental accommodation. I suggest that if there is any deviation from that standard lease form, that deviation should be marked clearly on the form and it should be subject to the agreement of both parties.", "Until such time as this government is prepared to take these kinds of actions, it has decided by itself to relegate the people who live in rented accommodation to the status of second-class citizens. I, frankly, don’t abide it, and no one in this party does. I make the commitment that were we given the opportunity, notwithstanding the difficulties that might be brought about, we would in fact institute the kinds of things that we’re asking this government to do.", "We’re asking this government further not to do things that no one else has ever done. We’re asking them simply to look around and recognize that other more enlightened jurisdictions have recognized what we have been telling this government for years, that unless they pull the landlords into line they’re going to gouge the people of this Province of Ontario to the point where the people can’t afford to live in apartment buildings -- and I don’t know where in heaven’s name they’re going to go.", "What we have happening is that more and more of the dollars that ought to be spent on food, clothing and other necessities are being tied up in providing accommodation. And it’s wrong, fundamentally and basically wrong. This government has an obligation to move in the field, and if it doesn’t, I suggest that at some point the people of the Province of Ontario will rise up -- and what they’ll have to say to the government they’ll say at the ballot box.", "I want also to tell you, Mr. Speaker, about the increases in the cost of accommodation in the housing field. I think we have spoken more frequently in the last few weeks about housing than any other single topic. It’s been one of those areas where the opposition has raised with the government a number of basic problems that have been confronting people across the province; and I think the government believes that if it speaks long enough and promises often enough, something will happen.", "I like the Minister of Housing (Mr. Handleman). I sat with him on a committee for two years, and we got along well. But I’m going to tell you, Mr. Speaker, that if they give him enough rope he’ll be walking on his own tongue pretty soon." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "That’s a mixed metaphor." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Well, it’s true. If he’s given sufficient leeway --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Give him enough rope and he will walk on his own tongue!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "-- he’ll be walking on his own tongue. He’s making statements which he is unable to back up. He’s making statements about the government’s intentions, which he knows full well the government has no intention of implementing. When the Minister of Housing says that simply by making it known to the speculator that the government may move in will be sufficient to discourage the speculator from getting into the field, I want to give him the other side of that. By telling the speculator what the government might well do, the speculator is doing all in his power to drive the prices as high as they can go now to make sure that he maximizes profit today. Beyond that I want to tell you, Mr. Speaker, and through you the government that I am convinced there isn’t a land speculator anywhere in the Province of Ontario who honestly believes that this government will take any action, there isn’t a land speculator anywhere in the Province of Ontario or a housing speculator anywhere in the Province of Ontario who, given the record of this government in land speculation and action or inaction, believes for one moment that the government is ever going to move in and put an end to the speculation in housing." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Even the backbench speculators aren’t afraid." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "My colleague from Hamilton Mountain (Mr. J. R. Smith) sent me a copy of today’s Hamilton Spectator and he obviously didn’t read it very closely because in the Spectator I noticed the conflict between the Tories here at Queen’s Park and the Tories in Ottawa. Here we have this fellow Robert Stanfield who is saying --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. F. Young (Yorkview)", "text": [ "Who is he?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "Great man." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "-- and I quote from a story in the Spectator, April 8, 1974, “PCs Favour House Price Controls” -- house price controls. It says, “Opposition Leader Robert Stanfield says a Progressive Conservative government would use price controls to stop the shocking and shameful increase in house prices.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "Sheer hypocrisy." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "Sure, look at the record of the Tory government down here." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Ferrier", "text": [ "They don’t go along with Bob Stanfield." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "This is the group which is going to support them all in the next federal election." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "The gall of those people over there; the sheer gall." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "I want to tell members that the statement of the Premier on the weekend when he guaranteed the Conservatives in Toronto the full support of the Conservative government at Queen’s Park to try to win the next federal election was obviously a farce when one considers the kinds of statements being made by the federal leader of the Conservative Party which don’t gibe in any sense with what this government is doing here. There is absolutely no intention on the part of the Conservatives in Ontario to deal forthrightly and effectively with the problem of the spiralling costs of housing." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "If the hon. member would permit an interruption, I might point out to the member that 10:30 is the adjournment hour, unless otherwise ordered by government motion." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Let’s adjourn, there is nobody here from the government. The Premier isn’t here; it is his Throne Speech debate.", "Hon. Mr. Winkler moves the House sit beyond the normal adjournment hour of 10:30." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Shall the motion carry?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "No." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Those in favour of the motion please say “aye.”", "Those opposed please say “nay.”", "In my opinion the “ayes” have it.", "Motion agreed to." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Wentworth. I appreciate his courtesy in letting me interrupt." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Thank you; it was a very appropriate moment anyway." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Thank you." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "I didn’t think I had a choice; I suppose I did.", "I want to go on, Mr. Speaker, to say to you that in looking back over the record of the Conservatives at Queen’s Park in considering the actions they have taken with regard to housing over the last seven years, and recognizing that rather than being competitors to the private sector, they have been, in fact, complementing the private sector in its efforts to drive the housing prices up, I can’t believe, not for one moment, that the federal Progressive Conservatives would have the support of Ontario in any effort they might undertake to impose restrictions on the increasing cost of housing.", "This government’s record in housing is atrocious. The minister may stand up and speak about the hundreds and thousands of housing units which have been developed in the Province of Ontario but this government has done absolutely nothing in the time I’ve been here to try to curb the spiralling costs. This government, in fact, when it went out to build houses under the HOME programme, checked in advance to find out what were the current free-market prices for the lots before establishing the prices it would charge. Did it charge less than the free market price?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Cassidy", "text": [ "It probably charged more." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "They charged the same and more than the free-market price. When I asked the question of the minister in charge at the time, Hon. Stanley Randall in that day, he told me that this government wasn’t in the business of undercutting the private entrepreneur." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "They had to protect the member for Bellwoods (Mr. Yaremko)." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Oh no! This government was in the business of shoring up the private sector. Well, when the government made that statement back in 1968, I want to tell you, Mr. Speaker, that it was at that point that the private sector decided that they were going to take from the housing market every single cent that they could get. And by God they’ve taken every cent that they can get. They have pushed the price of housing right across the Province of Ontario to a level where all but the elite few of young people coming into the housing market are unable to buy.", "Mr. Speaker, I go and speak to young people in schools about the future that is out there waiting for them. I talk to them in the following way and I ask anyone to disprove it, that if any single one of them went out from the school and was able to move into the job that his father currently held, earning the same salary for the same amount of work, he couldn’t buy the house they live in. Do you know that’s true of over 80 per cent of the population, Mr. Speaker? Do you know that over 80 per cent of the population, if they were to go out in today’s market with the salaries that they currently earn and try to buy the house they live in, they couldn’t do it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "Shame! Disgraceful!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "They don’t earn enough to buy the house they live in. It’s only by the grace of God that they bought them some years ago and are able to meet the payments.", "And this government has sat back. It’s a measure of the inactivity and lack of concern that this government has shown in the housing field, because this trend became obvious back in the mid-1960s. It became obvious about 1965 that housing prices were rising more quickly than the ability of the average consumer to purchase. It became obvious about 1965 that, with the ceilings taken off mortgage interest rates, mortgage interest rates for housing were going to rise at a level which would make the monthly payments outside the realm of possibility for the majority of earners in the Province of Ontario.", "It became obvious in 1965 that it was the intention of the land speculator to derive from the land the absolute maximum amount that could be extracted. Yet this government, though it was aware of those things, failed to move and to take any action. What we now have is a housing situation right across the Province of Ontario which is absolutely intolerable. What we now have are houses in Metropolitan Toronto, that this month averaged in price $50,340. Do you know, Mr. Speaker, if a person were to have a house, even a house of $47,000, and even if they were to raise the $4,700 for the down payment, they would have to amortize a mortgage of $42,300. Do you know that the monthly payment for that, just the interest rate, if they amortized it over 25 years, would be $378.37? And do you know that over the course of the time they would be paying for that house they would pay to the mortgagor a sum of $113,512.05 to buy a $47,000-house.", "But let me tell you something even more shocking than some of the other figures, because 25-year mortgages are no longer common in the Province of Ontario. People can’t afford to pay their houses off in 25 years, and now 35- and 40-year mortgages are common." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Haggerty", "text": [ "Forty years from now." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Let me tell you that $40,000 amortized over 30 years at 10 per cent means a payment to the finance company, the bank, the mortgagor, whoever it may be, of $124,228; and $45,000 mortgaged over 30 years is nearly $140,000 out of the earnings of the average person in the Province of Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Don’t buy it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "And if they go to 35 years, which is the common thing today, you find that a $45,000 mortgage would cost $160,000 to pay off -- $160,000 to buy a house. That’s how much it would cost.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "This government stands condemned for allowing this to happen in the Province of Ontario. This government has shown absolutely no concern. And let me just tell you that if you were to take the average $50,000 sale in Metropolitan Toronto and amortize it over 35 years it would cost $177,292 to pay it off." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "Shame, shame!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Now what working man in the Province of Ontario can afford to pay $178,000 out just to buy a house?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "The member for Wellington-Dufferin (Mr. Root)." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Where is the responsibility of this government to provide decent shelter at a price that people can afford? Where is the action of this government to try to provide housing for people who work in the Province of Ontario with average earnings at around $12,000 per family? How can a family earning an average of $12,000 ever hope to pay $180,000 over 35 years for a house? That doesn’t even include the taxes. That doesn’t include the upkeep. The whole thing is just so ludicrous that to speak about it in the House and to have everyone sitting reading newspapers and doing their homework is almost too much to bear." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. W. Martel (Sudbury East)", "text": [ "It’s a joke over there." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Because the fact of the matter is that this government doesn’t really give a damn." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "They have their finger in the pie." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Let’s take a look at what the average person has to pay out, Mr. Speaker, because I know that you are interested though nobody else on the other side is.", "Do you know, Mr. Speaker, that if a person were to purchase a $47,000 house and if he were to pay 10 per cent down and if he wanted to amortize it over 25 years -- think about the 25 years for a moment; that means that that person, by the time he is 35, would have to have been married and have saved sufficient money for a down payment in order to enter into a 25-year mortgage if he wanted to have it paid off by the time he was 60 -- it would cost $378.37 a month simply to amortize the balance.", "The taxes would cost approximately $55 a month. The insurance would be $6.50 a month. The heating would average $30 a month. The maintenance over 25 years would be about $40 a month. The hot water would average $5 a month and the electricity about $20 a month and rising every day." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Where is the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations (Mr. Clement)?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "So it would require a person in the Province of Ontario, just to make his house payments, to put out --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "The member said that 10 minutes ago." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "-- $534.87 every month." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "That’s why they have so many parliamentary assistants over there -- so the members can pay for their housing." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "That means that for the family earning $12,000, over half of their income would go on house payments -- over half. And you’ve got to recognize, Mr. Speaker, that in fact in 1974 less than 30 per cent of the families in the province earn over $16,000. That means that in fact something in excess of 70 per cent of the Province of Ontario earn less than $16,000, and yet to live in Metropolitan Toronto and to buy a house at the average price, just the average price, would require them to set out in excess of $6,000 every single year just to meet their commitments.", "Yet this government talks about its housing initiatives. This government talks in the Throne Speech with some pride about its housing policies. This government talks about how it is going to continue providing housing at a rate of about 100,000 a year. I want to tell you, Mr. Speaker, that is not nearly good enough. That is not beginning to meet the need in the Province of Ontario.", "If the government is not prepared to step up this programme; if it isn’t prepared to move in in competition with the private sector and to develop housing in sufficient numbers to ensure that the kind of gouging that is taking place can no longer take place; if this government isn’t prepared to expand the operations of, say, the Savings Office in order to ensure that there are mortgages available at rates which we in the Province of Ontario can somehow have some control over; if this government isn’t prepared to land-bank in the areas where the greatest need is and to make use of the land that it currently has to put housing on the market; if the government isn’t prepared to take advantage of the inventory which has already been done by the Ministry of Revenue and showing average price increases right across the Province of Ontario and base its policy on the trend that that shows, then it will have failed to provide housing for the people in the Province of Ontario.", "I want to tell you, Mr. Speaker, that last Friday, when we raised the matter of the decision of the Toronto Real Estate Board that it wasn’t going to make available the index which previously had been yielded every month, I had some questions about why the Toronto Real Estate Board didn’t want to do that. I think it has become fairly obvious, with regard to statistics, that the reason they didn’t want to do it was because they were afraid that the government might, through some inadvertence, be forced to move into the field and put a stop to the kind of gouging that has been occurring right across Metropolitan Toronto and the Province of Ontario.", "In any event, Mr. Speaker, one need only look at the statistics in housing to see exactly where this government has failed.", "In 1969 in Ontario the average house price was $25,665; by 1973 that had risen to $36,877. This represented an increase of 26.3 per cent from 1972 to 1973 and an increase of 13.4 from 1969 to 1972.", "To be a little bit more specific for my colleague, in Ottawa in 1969 the average price of a house was $27,292; by 1973 that average price had risen to $39,909, reflecting an increase from 1972 to 1973 of 23.5 per cent.", "In Hamilton, where I come from, in 1969 the average price was $23,368; by 1973 it had risen to $33,615, indicating an increase in one year, from 1972 to 1973, of 22.5 per cent." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "Hamilton Tories are speculating, too." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "In Kitchener the 1969 average price was $28,176; by 1973 it was $36,982, and there was an increase from 1972 to 1973 of 28 per cent.", "In Windsor, represented by two colleagues of mine and by a Liberal member, in 1969 the average was $20,866, and by 1973 that had risen to $28,573. From 1972 to 1973 the rate of increase was 27.2 per cent.", "Mr. Speaker, I don’t know how this government has the gall to bring in a Throne Speech that doesn’t have as its basis a massive move in the field of housing. I don’t know how this government has the gall to go before the people of the Province of Ontario to ask for their continued support on the basis of the kinds of things that have happened in the housing field alone.", "I don’t know how this government even has the gall to come into the House, and ask its own backbenchers, who come from many of the areas that I have spoken about, to support them when there is nothing in the Throne Speech which indicates that this government has any intention at all of changing the trends that it has not only allowed but encouraged in the Province of Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "And has benefited from." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "I can only suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that if there was only one reason why I couldn’t support the Throne Speech, that would be reason enough. Because this government, in spite of its head lights -- and I can well remember when the Provincial Secretary for Resources Development stood up and spoke in glowing terms two years ago about the tremendous housing programme the government was going to undertake and how the government recognized --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mrs. Campbell", "text": [ "But he did not say when." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "-- the great problems in the housing field and how this government was going to get under way with a great housing programme and bring about a change. I am going to tell members that if the action in the last two years, which have seen the kinds of increases I have just spoken about, is the kind of action we can expect from the Tory government in the field of housing then God relieve us from the burden of having them in office." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. K. McNeil (Elgin)", "text": [ "The member has pretty feeble support." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "He wouldn’t know it even if he heard it. Let me go on, Mr. Speaker, to say that it’s not only in the field of housing. If it were only one field, maybe someone could argue that a government is entitled not to be good at everything but I am going to tell you something -- this government has failed equally miserably in the area of the cost of living. There is a litany so long that I hesitate to become involved in that area but I am going to tell members --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "He is going to do it anyway." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "I want to say this. I am going to take my lead from the member for Downsview who, knowing that the things he had to say were of vital importance to the future of the province, felt it necessary to take whatever length of time was needed in order to say them." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Right." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "In fact, I was delighted when the member decided he wanted to add a little to what he had said since he had read the paper and noticed something else. I am not going to stand in his way; any time he wants to make a speech he may do so." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Thank you, sir." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Let me say to members about the cost of living --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Can I make one now?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "He certainly may." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "He feels one coming on." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Let me say something about the cost of living, Mr. Speaker. You will recall that we suggested in the amendment we made that it was time for a review of price increases, profit-taking and increased revenue in many sectors of the economy; that it was time for the government to exercise one of its primary responsibilities, that being to ensure that food could be purchased by the people of the Province of Ontario at a price they could afford.", "We said to the government that if it had no other obligation it certainly had an obligation to institute a review board which could investigate what appeared on the surface to be unconscionable increases in price and profit and that it had an obligation, if it discovered there was not the kind of justification, to roll back the price.", "I want to begin by saying we totally reject that there’s any argument with regard to constitutionality. We believe, in this party, that the Province of Ontario has both the constitutional right and the moral obligation to move in this field." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Ferrier", "text": [ "Right on." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "We further believe, in spite of whatever difficulties there may be with one individual province moving, if the Province of Ontario showed the initiative it would have the effect of reducing the cost of living for all right across the Dominion of Canada. If the federal Liberals are unwilling to move --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "And they are." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "-- I suggest that the provincial Tories have an obligation to move. The argument always seems to develop that the government doesn’t really want to move into the private sector. What right has it, after all, to infringe on the profit-taking of its friends? Some even argue that the profit margins have not been excessive over the last few years. It’s simply a recovery of some of the losses which may have occurred.", "Mr. Speaker, I want to put on the record a few statistics in this regard and I won’t be long. They cover the fourth quarter of last year in a number of different sectors -- I am going to deal with them one by one.", "In the banking sector, in the fourth quarter of last year, there was an increase of 26.2 per cent in the profit; in base metals in the fourth quarter of last year there was an increase of 358.5 per cent in profit; in beverages an increase of 10 per cent; in chemicals an increase of 54.9 per cent; in communications an increase of 15.4 per cent; in construction materials an increase of 36.5 per cent; in food processing -- and this is a key area -- in the fourth quarter of last year there was an increase of 81.1 per cent over the fourth quarter of the previous year.", "In general manufacturing there was an increase of 2.1 per cent; in golds an increase of 92.5 per cent; in industrial mines an increase of 160.5 per cent over the fourth quarter of the previous year; in merchandising an increase of 9.5 per cent -- and on and on.", "In the paper and forest industries, an increase of 104 per cent; in real estate -- which I have just spoken about -- an increase of 96.1 per cent in profit; in steel an increase of 72.6 per cent; in transportation an increase of 53.5 per cent; and in oils an increase of 81.4 per cent in the fourth quarter of last year. That’s in the profit in the fourth quarter of last year over the fourth quarter of the year before.", "You hear of increases of these types in real estate, 96.1 per cent; in oils, 81.4 per cent; and then we go and negotiate a further increase in Ottawa just a week ago -- a further increase.", "And, if you take a look at the year-end figures, 1973 over 1972, you’ll find -- and I won’t quote them all -- but in base metals a 237.3 per cent increase in profit over the previous year; in oils a 52.1 per cent increase over the previous year; in real estate a 115.6 per cent profit increase over the previous year.", "Mr. Speaker, those kinds of increases in profit indicate to me that there is excessive profit-taking in many of the sectors in the Dominion of Canada, and in most of the sectors centred in the Province of Ontario.", "I suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that it’s time that this government exercised its responsibility and insisted that the justification for that kind of profit-taking be laid before the public at a public inquiry; and that this government exercise its responsibility and make sure that where those profits were not justified that there be a rollback; and that that rollback be in the form of a direct tax on the profits that had been made, and in addition to that, a rollback in the price of the commodities as they appear today.", "I want to tell you that not only in the individual sectors do the profits show up as being extremely large, but in the individual companies one can pick and choose -- and I’m not going to pick and choose too many, but I could go through them all.", "Maple Leaf Mills, for example, showed a 149 per cent profit increase in 1973 over 1972; Massey-Ferguson showed a 76 per cent profit increase in 1973 over 1972 -- and all the way down the line. Robin Red Lake Mines showed an increase from $430,000 up to $993,000, over 100 per cent, and on and on; there were so many of them that I hesitate to put them on the record.", "But I bring them to your attention, sir, because I think they provide the justification for what we are asking for in our amendment. And what we are asking for in our amendment is this government to move for the first time in its history toward ensuring that the people of the Province of Ontario are protected against the kind of gouging that their friends are undertaking in this province.", "When Silverwood Dairies shows an increase of 72 per cent, 1973 over 1972, then there is something to be asked; when in the banking field you find the Royal Bank with an increase of 21.5 per cent; the Bank of Commerce an increase on 20.4 per cent; the", "Bank of Montreal an increase of 16.2 per cent; and these are all in profit after taxes -- profit after taxes.", "When you see the Toronto-Dominion Bank with an increase of 55.8 per cent, it’s not difficult to see why the people of this province are having extreme difficulty in meeting their commitments on the wages that they earn, because the increases in salaries and wages have certainly not kept pace with the increase in profits the companies have enjoyed.", "The Becker Milk Co., an old favourite of mine, showed an increase in profit in 1973 over 1972 of 43 per cent. It has always been a pretty profitable place, let me tell you. I don’t want to leave the impression that I have any particular grudge against Becker; I just happen to think they treat their employees rather shabbily. But they don’t seem to suffer as a result when they can show a 43 per cent increase in profit after taxes in 1973 over 1972.", "Mr. Speaker, what I am saying in a nutshell is that in the area of cost of living, there is sufficient justification available to the government to enable them to move with the full support of the total community toward an investigation of the profit-taking of the major producers of foodstuffs and commodities in the Province of Ontario. There is not only sufficient justification, there is an obvious need. I am suggesting to you, sir, that this government has an obligation to move in that regard; and if it doesn’t move in that regard, it has an obligation to give up the reins of government because it is not exercising its responsibilities.", "Let me tell you one final thing, Mr. Speaker, before I close. Every year we hear from the senior citizens of the province, and when we talk of housing and the cost of living there are few people in the province so hard-hit and who suffer to such an extent as do the senior citizens.", "When we in this party tried last fall to have this government recognize the need to establish a basic income for senior citizens, this government refused. When we suggested to this government that it could have been done both economically and sensibly well within the means of the Province of Ontario, this government refused. When we told the government that the senior citizens of the province needed an income of no less than $215 a month, this government refused to act; and it carried on with its $50 Christmas bonus arrangement which we and others pointed out was totally inadequate and was in fact a little bit of political bribery.", "The senior citizens have come forward, year after year with a well-documented brief. I think they are perhaps getting a little upset, and I don’t blame them. Let me tell you, sir, that they have asked again that education taxes be removed from residential properties and that tenants be reimbursed in full. I think that makes a lot of sense. They have also asked that there be a $200 minimum income established for old age pensioners in the Province of Ontario. They have further asked that the Ontario government pay all accounts in full if proper receipts are produced under the OHIP plan. They say that one of the difficulties they have is that if they travel out of the province, the basis for payment is not the same in other parts of the North American continent as in the Province of Ontario. They say that they are being unduly restricted and that their incomes won’t stretch far enough to allow them to pay the difference, and I think we in the Province of Ontario can afford to cover them.", "They also point out that there is a need for housing. They point out that there is a need for homes for the aged and nursing homes. They point out that there is a need to extend drugs, dentures, hearing aids and glasses to senior citizens.", "In other words, what they are really saying is that there is a need in the Province of Ontario for the establishment of an agency to deal primarily with the needs of those who are pensioners, to deal forthrightly with the problems they have, to make recommendations to government and to implement the recommendations.", "I suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that’s something this government ought to have done years ago and it hasn’t. There is no question that for those senior citizens fortunate enough to be able to get into rented senior citizens accommodation life is certainly a bit better. But there are so few apartments available for senior citizens that it is, in fact, discriminatory. It is a discriminatory measure by the government and the government should undertake to ensure a supplement to senior citizens in order to guarantee that their incomes are equalized across the Province of Ontario.", "Mr. Speaker, there are any number of other things which ought to be raised. There’s the government’s attitude toward the north which has been, to say the least, atrocious. There’s the attitude of this government toward the people of the north, an attitude which is reflected, I might say, in the proposal for the development of Maple Mountain.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "I’m glad he got back. I really am. I want to tell members this about Maple Mountain -- I’m not about to get involved in a long discussion about it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "He doesn’t know what he is talking about. Get some facts." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Ferrier", "text": [ "The government is going to look after its friends.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. M. C. Germa (Sudbury)", "text": [ "Is that why it is going to pay $80 million to re-elect the member? It’s going to cost $80 million to re-elect him." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "Why doesn’t he get some facts?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Germa", "text": [ "That’s all he is doing -- buying his ticket back in." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "Let him get some facts before he goes mouthing off. That is typical of him." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Germa", "text": [ "We don’t need that member. He should crawl back under his rock." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Let me tell you, Mr. Speaker, that the government’s attitude toward both employment and the north are very clearly set out in the Maple Mountain proposal." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "Why doesn’t the member look after his own problems? Let him solve those of his own riding." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Germa", "text": [ "The member should crawl under his rock." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Without giving any consideration to the merits of the location, which themselves are somewhat suspect, let me talk about the job-creating capacity of the project.", "In the submission placed before the government, there’s an indication there will be approximately 800 new jobs created by the Maple Mountain project. Unfortunately, over 500 of the 800 jobs are, if one wants to categorize them, of a domestic nature." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "It must be good; the member is against it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "They’re going to be making beds, waiting on tables, cleaning up after the American tourist when he comes in --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "The member is prejudging the project -- what an expert!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "-- and they’re going to be paid the minimum wage in the Province of Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "How does the member know? How can he prejudge it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Ferrier", "text": [ "One only has to go to Ontario Place to find that out." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "They know it all; that’s the whole trouble with them." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Germa", "text": [ "Every Tory only pays $2 an hour." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "Why doesn’t he shut up? He is just talking through his ear as usual." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "What I want to say to you, Mr. Speaker, is this: That if this government is looking for a way to invest $40 million or $50 million in a project in Ontario --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "It’s not $40 million or $50 million; get the facts." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "If the government is looking for a way to invest $40 million or $50 million in the Province of Ontario, let it at least invest it in something which will be substantial, which will provide something called meaningful employment for the area, employment which will pay them a decent living wage --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "Give us a clue." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "I’ll give the member a clue; I’ll tell him what we’d do. Let me suggest, Mr. Speaker, what could be done. If this government had moved at the time the Steel Co. of Canada and Dominion Foundries and Steel were in the process of acquiring land at the shores of Lake Erie and if this government had taken the money it’s prepared to invest in Maple Mountain --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "That has nothing to do with the north." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "-- and had put that into the development in northern Ontario of a manufacturing process similar to the one which is currently being proposed --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "Like they did in Saskatchewan where they all went broke?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "-- for the Lake Erie shoreline, we would have had a substantial manufacturing development which in itself would have acted as a catalyst; which would have provided at least 5,000 new jobs in northern Ontario; which would have paid a minimum of $4 an hour and which would have been the basis upon which the north could have been developed." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Ferrier", "text": [ "That’s the kind of planning we need." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "That’s the kind of development that northern Ontario needs.", "Mr. Speaker, when we speak --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "Don’t talk to me about government-run industries, like in Saskatchewan. Why doesn’t the member talk about shoe factories and the fish hatcheries --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, when we speak in our amendment about northern development and say that this government has failed to establish economic growth in northern Ontario, based on its resource potential, we are talking about just such a project as that. And when we say that this government has failed to establish northern economic development and employment, based on long-term secondary growth as a No. 1 priority, we are talking about a development just such as that. And we are saying to the member for Timiskaming that if he has nothing but a small-town mentality --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "That’s what the member has got." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Ferrier", "text": [ "The member for Timiskaming hasn’t got faith in the north; that’s his problem." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "-- if he is unable to see the tremendous potential that the resources of the north afford to the government for secondary development, and if the member for Timiskaming is unable to see that it would be entirely possible --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "Oh, the member is so brilliant!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "-- to make better use of the many millions of dollars that will be spent by this government in the development of Maple Mountain --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Martel", "text": [ "Just some secondary industries." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "How long will the natural resources last?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "-- by producing the kind of secondary development we are talking about, then obviously he is not very farsighted.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Ferrier", "text": [ "The member hasn’t got faith in the north; that’s his problem." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I say, on behalf of this party, that this government has failed to win the support of the House by its Throne Speech. It obviously has few, if any, policies aimed at reaching and combating the major problems confronting the people of the Province of Ontario, and we will not support the motion on the Throne Speech." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. member for Sarnia." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. E. Bullbrook (Sarnia)", "text": [ "Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.", "I want to begin by complimenting the prior speaker on his contribution to this debate -- with the exception of the final remarks on Maple Mountain; I am not too knowledgeable about Maple Mountain --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "Ah, there is an honest man." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "The member for Timiskaming somewhat coerced him into that diversion." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "The anti-labour member who is quite happy to see people work for the minimum wage." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "The member for Nickel Belt doesn’t know what work is. He never worked a day in his life, the little pipsqueak." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Why don’t the two of them step outside?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "I find the member for Timiskaming a very unique individual." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "That’s true." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "He’s the only member I know who can stay in his riding and still be recorded in a voice vote in this House." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "Doesn’t the member wish he had that talent? At least I haven’t got one of the squeaky female voices like he has." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "He is running a close second by the member for Middlesex South (Mr. Eaton), the new parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Agriculture and Food. They were going to make him vice-chairman of the hog marketing board in charge of colic, but he couldn’t quite make it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "And the member is going to be the head chairman." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "But I want to compliment the House leader of the New Democratic Party for his statistical evaluation of the problems of government. Sometimes statistics can be very cold, sometimes telling and meaningful and sometimes agonizing lengthy. But in any event they are recorded for posterity and, I recognize, upon a foundation of sincere regard for the problems of the people of Ontario in the context of the Throne Speech.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "I realize it’s late in the evening, but I want to record that Henry Aaron, tonight, at about 8:15 by our time, hit the 715th home run of his career and broke the all-time home-run record. I think as an aficionado of sports, along with my colleague from Downsview --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. G. A. Kerr (Solicitor General)", "text": [ "Who was the pitcher?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "They are two different sports, I’ll tell you." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "Jealousy will get the minister nowhere." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "-- that we should record our respect for that gentleman, whom we know as a gentle man, a man with great integrity of purpose. Obviously the effort that he has put forward now shines in the public eye, much as will the efforts of my leader in connection with the integrity of purpose that he has put forward." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "He has yet to hit his first home run." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I would be the last to say that was a non-sequitur." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I want to say to you personally, and I’m most appreciative of the fact that you are in the chair at the present moment, that you join with me in recognizing that two of our colleagues who were taken by illness, my colleague in this party, the member for Nipissing, and our colleague the hon. member for Hamilton East, have now rejoined us and we, with you, welcome them back for their contribution and wisdom and experience in connection with the deliberations of this House.", "But more so I join with the other members who have spoken previously in their appreciation and gratitude for your return to the House. I hadn’t recognized, until the self-confession tonight, that it was a speech by the member for Wentworth that made you sick. That has happened to me on several occasions. But I think you really take things too seriously when you have to be carried from the chamber. Recognizing that sometimes those remarks are difficult to take, bear with us and bear with it.", "Sir, I want to begin by digressing. It is not my intention to stand necessarily as a spokesman for the Liberal Party, nor is it my intention to necessarily dwell entirely upon the Throne Speech. That is a vacuous document at the best of times. I want to give some thoughts if I may, even at this late hour, in connection with some of the things that have crossed my attention in the last year. The first thing is the enterprise that was undertaken by my colleague from Huron-Bruce and myself with respect to the select committee on Hydro, and I confess in this regard a change of attitude perhaps. I’m not going to talk about the merits of the situation itself, but I want to record this: I wonder now whether the select committee is really the appropriate vehicle to undertake that type of investigative endeavour.", "I must say that I was all for the fact that the legislative process would be better served by having my colleagues and perhaps myself undertake this type of responsibility. I must say now, after having given it great consideration, notwithstanding the great assistance of many of our colleagues in the House, that I wonder if we didn’t really require the direction as to relevance and probative value of somebody of more judicial training than the chairman. Recognizing again that the chairman himself, under the direction of counsel, did a magnificent job in this regard, I must say to you that sometimes I feel that perhaps the reputation of individuals in the Province of Ontario, without foundation in fact, might have been adversely affected, and I don’t think we can afford the luxury of that type of thing.", "So I invite the Premier in his absence -- and may I say this to you, sir, the very words “the Premier in his absence,” leave me with some consideration. It really is an unfortunate circumstance --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. J. White (Treasurer, Minister of Economics and Intergovernmental Affairs)", "text": [ "On a point of order, the Premier was to be here and is not feeling well tonight." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "An unfortunate situation. Then I will not say that which I was going to say. If the Premier is ill, we regret that." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "The Premier is here now." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "I tell you, Mr. Speaker, if that minister were the Premier, Tara Explorations would have no problem whatsoever, and that’s a fact.", "Notwithstanding the fact that the Premier is ill, one would think that with respect to the winding up of the address of His Honour in connection with the Speech from the Throne, that more than a scattering of cabinet ministers should have been here to make their contribution. We look forward to the contribution on behalf of the government party by the Solicitor General. We recognize that he will be able to defend, in his own inimitable style, the path that was put forward and pressed upon the Lieutenant Governor, on -- I believe I can’t recall the date.", "By the way, I often wonder, and I mean this in no disrespect, if the pages that were left out of that speech by the Lieutenant Governor were done without deliberate motivation. As I read them in Hansard, and as members have the opportunity to read them, I can understand that His Honour, as the great Liberal that he was, would have great difficulty actually reading them. I think probably there might have been some purpose in that. However, we’ll never know.", "I wanted to say to you, sir, in connection with the establishment of that particular committee, that I would hope that the Camp commission, rather than dwelling upon the emoluments of our office, might now undertake something with respect to the responsibilities that we have. I think one of the things that they might do is look at the whole structure of the select committee, because I think we all agree that some of the things that have been done to select committees might well lead to our own deprivation in connection with the utilization of select committees.", "I don’t want again to burden this House with respect to individuals who, I would suggest with the greatest respect, undertake responsibilities placed upon them without, I think, a degree of altruism but rather with a motivation of their own financial interest in connection with those responsibilities. The fact of the matter is that when I was elected to this House in 1967 $200,000 was spent with respect to the establishment of nine select committees. In the fiscal year 1972-1973 $800,000 was spent with respect to the establishment of nine select committees or exactly four times the amount. Notwithstanding the propensity one individual committee had to diffuse its largess in a most concentric fashion throughout the Province of Ontario, I think, with some partisan motivation, one has to recognize that select committees have a purpose and an intent and a function and a responsibility with respect to our process.", "Mr. Speaker, through you I invite all my colleagues to press upon those who regard select committees as an opportunity to make $50 or $60 a day to chasten them and to say to them that no longer will we permit that type of enterprise. They are not at fault solely themselves. The Premier, when he establishes select committees without defined terms of reference and without any terminal position, invites the type of abuse that the Provincial Auditor has brought to our attention.", "I have stood in my place on many occasions and said that select committees have a significant function to play in the life of this House. The problem is that we must all tonight consider what the function of this House is, because one has to wonder whether the whole process is going to continue if the people are going to be told that to look into the use of schools you have to travel to the United Kingdom; to look into drainage you have to travel to Florida and to look into snowmobiles you have to travel outside the Province of Ontario.", "I’m serious and sincere in saying this to you, Mr. Speaker, that we must be careful that if we continue on this charade of our own the complete credibility of our process is going to be called into question. If we do then what we should do, if we say we lost four million man-hours of work in the last two years because of strikes in this province, and we establish a select committee to look into labour relations and to try to lead the world in connection with the resolution of those problems, they might regard us in the same context and with the same integrity of enterprise as those people on the drainage committee who went on those larks of their own. We can’t afford that.", "I’ve spoken personally to chairmen of select committees. No longer is politics a game that you play for your own advantage. That’s all right on county council, it’s not all right here. We can’t do it any more. We can’t spend the public funds this way any more. It isn’t a game of spreading largess to ourselves and those of our confidantes and those people whom we want to give it to for partisan advantage. None of us, including myself, can afford that any more because if we do that in the context of what I’m going to talk about afterwards, then you must recognize that you’re beginning to fracture the system.", "Let’s look at our colleagues who do these things. Let’s do that, Mr. Speaker. Let’s say to ourselves that no longer can we continue with this. Let’s say to the Premier, if we can, please make it a relevant enterprise.", "I tell you, Mr. Speaker, the Camp commission said that select committees shouldn’t be paid. I don’t know about that. I would be inclined to think that they should not, but I think that human nature being what it is and responsibilities being what they that extra emolument. I don’t know; I are that perhaps we need the propulsion of would hope not, but I am inclined to think that perhaps we do.", "Mr. Speaker, I want to say to you, as sincerely and with as much devotion as I can, that we must be careful about all the institutions of this Legislature, because I tell you people are talking to me about it. They are saying, “What are you politicians doing?” And I will talk about that afterwards. I want to tell you that basically the framework of my feeling tonight is, “Where are we going?”", "All one has to do is sit through the question period here -- and you in your labour and responsibility must sit through it every day -- and recognize perhaps the contest of partisan advantage that goes on, notwithstanding the fact that there are so many problems facing people today. One has to wonder really -- and one has to hate to use the word, it has been used so often -- but one wonders about the relevancy of the Treasurer of Ontario with his magnificent responsibility saying, “Way to go, Bob.” We’ll talk about the Treasurer afterwards and what his responsibilities are -- and I contribute myself. I am trying to unburden what I sincerely feel tonight.", "If that is going to be the charade that goes on every day, if that is what the function of select committees is, then one has to wonder whether the people are right when they say “a plague on all your houses,” because that is really what they are coming to say. And it is not the poor any more who are coming to say it. It is not the rich who are coming to say it. It is those in that broad spectrum of society who are taxed to death, who carry the burden on behalf of the rich and the poor, and who don’t seem to really have any viable alternative when you look at us collectively in this House.", "I want to say to you, Mr. Speaker, that I wonder about government. I am sure you wonder about government. I have met Mr. Cronyn, a most sincere man, to try to get some education into the whole new superstructure of government, because I just can’t get to it. It is so malleable to me; I can’t grasp it at all.", "I think he tried to explain to me, again with sincerity, what he was attempting to do. I tried to tell him experiences I have had in connection with the superstructure of government, with the creation of TEIGA, which I thought was almost the rape of the right of people to directly deal with a minister who understood planning, who understood land use, who had a direct responsibility to municipalities.", "I told him experiences that I have had -- two experiences I had, as one member from one riding dealing with two ministries. I want to tell you about them tonight, recognizing the lateness of the hour.", "I knew some time ago that because of economic pressures the Minister of Health was entertaining the amalgamation of certain services in city of Sarnia with respect to our hospitals. As a result on Jan. 22, 1973, I wrote a letter to the then Provincial Secretary for Social Development (Mr. Welch), Parliament Buildings, Queen’s Park. I want to read it into the record:", "“Re:", "“The amalgamation of services, Sarnia General Hospital.", "“I wish to confirm my conversation with you of recent date when I voiced a great deal of displeasure in connection with the general concept of amalgamation of services relative to our two general hospitals in the city of Sarnia. Recognizing a superior knowledge on the part of the officials of the Department of Health and on the part of members of the boards and commissions of the two hospitals concerned, I want to reflect a significant degree of displeasure and disenchantment being voiced by my constituents to me in connection with the directions of the government.", "“While we understand the need for certain financial restraints, the attitude of many of my constituents is that both hospitals have been considered general hospitals and that the concept of a general hospital should be for the delivery of general health services to the public at large.", "“I want to also point out to you that I have had discussions with members of the medical profession, some of whom are also concerned about such amalgamation of services. One doctor in particular pointed out to me that the establishment in one hospital alone of a cardiac care service would, in fact, disentitle some people in the other hospital to the benefit of such services in an emergency situation.", "“However, the main purpose of my telephone conversation and this particular letter is to voice not only my constituents’ displeasure but my particular displeasure at the concept of transference of obstetrical services to St. Joseph’s Hospital.", "“After having discussed this matter with people concerned and knowledgeable I recognize the economic advantage to such a move. You will recognize that there are certain ethical restrictions placed upon patients within St. Joseph’s Hospital because of the ethical standards established by the Sisters of St. Joseph who administer and operate the hospital.", "“I want to make it amply clear that I do not in any way wish to fetter the Sisters of St. Joseph in their obvious right to maintain such ethical standards as they see fit. I do not subscribe to some of my constituents who say that since such a hospital is subsidized by public funds the standards imposed by the Sisters of St. Joseph should be waived.", "“I take the position that on a voluntary basis anyone who wishes to enter St. Joseph’s Hospital for the delivery of health services should abide by standards and restrictions imposed by the administration. I want to underline for your consideration the word “voluntary.” What concerns me now is that to establish a single obstetrical service at St. Joseph’s Hospital would force many of my constituents who do not abide by or believe in or want to be restricted by the ethical standards of the Sisters of St. Joseph to be restricted. There is an attempt, which I believe to be a rationalization, that after the normal obstetrical service is provided, many of my constituents who wish additional services outside the ethical tradition of the Sisters of St Joseph could secure such services at Sarnia General Hospital.", "“I believe that to be fallacious. I believe, in point of fact, that in medical terms it would not always be beneficial to the patient so to do, and I believe frankly that if a person goes into a hospital on a directed basis they should be entitled to the normal and general health delivery services under the law.", "“I have heard it said that some are attempting to distinguish between the delivery of obstetrical and the delivery of gynaecological services. Perhaps I am unable to understand fully the significance of such a distinction, but I must as a lay person admit that I can’t see from the point of view of a benefit to the patient the obligation of the doctor that there is any significant distinction between the services provided. I believe them all to be part of a total service to be provided by the doctors to the patient.", "“I want to close this letter by making it amply clear that as long as patients attend at St. Joseph’s Hospital on a voluntary basis they must recognize the right of the administration to establish certain terms of reference in connection with the services being provided by such hospital. The key ingredient to my decision in this connection lies in the fact that many of my constituents would be forced into attending for services at St. Joseph’s Hospital.", "“I want to express, if I may, a feeling of displeasure in the government and your secretariat in not having recognized prior to the adoption of this type of policy the collateral affect it might have upon communities. In point of fact, this type of decision has reared a narrower feeling in a segment of our community between sectarian groups than any I have seen since I was a child. It is indeed unfortunate that your advisors, Mr. Secretary, did not recognize this possibility.”", "And that’s the end of the letter.", "That begins a letter to the Provincial Secretary for Social Development in connection with the impact of an economic decision upon the social rights and traditions, responsibilities and freedoms of my constituents, directed to the Provincial Secretary for Social Development. I read you his response dated Jan. 31, 1973.", "“I would like to acknowledge and thank you for your articulate letter of Jan. 22 outlining some of the difficulties being faced in the Sarnia area.” [And here’s the telling paragraph] “I forwarded a copy of your letter to the Hon. Richard Potter, Minister of Health, for his careful consideration and I appreciate very much the trouble you’ve taken to outline the situation in detail.”", "I had intended, Mr. Speaker, to read you the total volume of correspondence, but those two letters in essence give you the problem that I face. What does the Provincial Secretary for Social Development do if he doesn’t come to grips with that type of problem? COGP said that the function of the secretariat is to develop policies in the context of those ministries for which they have the tactile or direct responsibility.", "A letter was sent to the secretary for social development talking about the impact on my society of an economic decision and the response was directed to the Minister of Health who COGP says has nothing to do with the establishment of that policy but undertakes to administer the policy once it’s made manifest.", "Eventually in this House in a moment of, I suppose, less than temperance I said to him during the course of a debate that he hadn’t responded to me. I said to the present Provincial Secretary for Justice, the present Attorney General (Mr. Welch) -- which very phrase, may I interject, should make COGP gag. The Provincial Secretary for Justice and the Attorney General is the very thing that COGP said should never take place. The purpose of the development of a secretariat was to relieve him of those administrative responsibilities. Of course it’s long gone. When he was secretary for social development, they made him Minister of Housing at the same time." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "He had to do something." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "I said to him that he had not responded. I got up in my place, I apologized to him and I subsequently wrote this letter to him and I want to read it into the record:", "“I wish to acknowledge your letter of March 15 and I apologize personally as well as I have publicly in the House. You certainly did answer my letters and it was obvious that I was wrong in thinking that the impact of the amalgamation of services on the ethical tradition of the Sisters of St. Joseph would be a matter for the secretary for social development. As you mentioned, you referred it to the Minister of Health.", "“I say, frankly, it gives one pause for thought. If that wasn’t a matter for the secretary for social development, then surely there isn’t anything that is a matter for the secretary for social development.", "“I am pleased now that since you are Provincial Secretary for Justice you will have something to do. My question is, will it be as Attorney General or secretary for justice?", "“I am having lunch on Wednesday with John Cronyn and I will ask him.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "The member is funny." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "I did ask Mr. Cronyn and his response, I believe not of a confidential nature, was that the success of the redevelopment of the structure of government depended upon the individuals who occupied the positions. One recognizes that from start to beginning!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Singer", "text": [ "A couple of them are smiling." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "The reason I bring this up is that the House leader of the NDP has talked about people wondering where government is going and where our money is going. Let me tell members something for a moment. When we began the superstructure of policy secretaries, in the first year we estimated their expenditures at $844,717. Last year, including the Premier’s office, it got up to $2,372,000.", "That’s why I talk about it; a 300 per cent increase in two years for people to do what? This is what we ask: For people who do what? It might seem picayune, an elevation of only $1.6 million, but regard that in the context of all the spending because it isn’t only the secretary for social development whom we wonder about.", "I want members to hearken back to the famous case of the route of the oil pipeline. Do they remember that one? I often wonder what type of resource development policy -- the present secretary wasn’t there but he finally made the statement. Let me synthesize for a moment; let me just read the headlines and a few things which were said, if I can. These headlines are a story unto themselves to tell members about the development of policy with respect to a matter which had been ongoing for four months by the federal government without one tittle of intrusion by the provincial government -- it is professed now by both the federal people and the provincial government there was not one tittle of intrusion as to provincial responsibility. Let’s see what type of policy had been developed in connection with this. The first headline is: “Two Ontario Cabinet Ministers Favour Moving Pipeline Route North”. Those two are those famous, famous liberals, the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Food and the Treasurer of Ontario.", "Now the only thing I’m going to say about the Minister of Agriculture, as I said in a press release once, he was only 400 per cent wrong in connection with his estimate. His original estimate was 10,000 acres to be taken --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "I was right, the member was wrong." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "Ten thousand acres to be taken and they are taking about 2,700 by the time they are finished in connection with arable land in the Province of Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "That’s not what I said." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. G. Eaton (Middlesex South)", "text": [ "How would the member for Sarnia know?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "Let me read to the members the telling quote by the chief planner. This is the chief planner of the Province of Ontario:", "“Mr. White said that from previous experience Ontario had a close to zero ‘chance of persuading Ottawa to change the route. Bumping this line out of the agricultural land in southern Ontario into the north will be better accomplished by the Federation of Agriculture making representations.’”", "Now there is the chief planner, the man knowledgeable about the use of land in the Province of Ontario, saying that we’ll never get that line moved north ourselves, and not knowing that the line from Sarnia to Burlington was already there. The line was there. The right of way was there." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Eaton", "text": [ "Does the member think they want it on the other line?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "Not one hectare of additional land would they take; and there’s the chief planner for Ontario saying, “we can’t get that moved north because the Ontario Federation of Agriculture says -- ”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Eaton", "text": [ "They aren’t going to build a new line on top of the old pipe." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Ruston", "text": [ "Do a little more squeaking over there.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "“ -- that we can’t have it north.” So we begin: “Two Ontario Cabinet Ministers Favour Moving The Pipeline Route North.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Riddell", "text": [ "This is an example of the next Minister of Agriculture?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "Now the second headline --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Eaton", "text": [ "He wants it to go through there, and the member for Huron wants it to go through. I suppose he also wants hydro fines." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "The second headline says -- Would someone tell that lady over there to be quiet?", "The second headline says: “London North MPP Backs Northern Oil Pipeline Route.”", "The third headline says: “Bernier Suggests Northern Route Proper One.”" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "A tight one too." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "Then we have the next headline: “McKeough Supports South Route.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. H. Jessiman (Fort William)", "text": [ "What does Bullbrook support?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "Let’s have Anderson." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "An article by Bob Anderson -- I’m sorry, Harold Greer -- “Ontario Cabinet Ministers Ought To Talk To McKeough.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "And what about Bob Anderson?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "Then the next headline is: “Ministers Divided On Pipeline Route.”" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Well they are consistent." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "Then the next editorial says: “Strange Hiatus In Ontario Politics.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "We haven’t had one of those since Robarts left.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "And finally we have the pronouncement ex cathedra, which reads: “Davis Denies Cabinet Split Over Route.” As I read those headlines I recognized that if the Provincial Secretary for Resources Development isn’t victim of ad hoc-ery, nobody is." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "Having a hell of a time making it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "That was the development of policy, because he had to stand up in this House in his own fashion -- not tall, but stand -- and say, “We won’t intervene in connection with the application before for the National Energy Board, but we feel for the farmers.”", "That had to be really the most ludicrous exercise in government futility, stupidity, devisivenness and frustration that the minister has ever had -- really.", "I tell you, the magnificent aspect of it is that the Premier of Ontario rids himself of people like the member for Armourdale (Mr. Carton), the member for York Mills (Mr. Bales), and the member for Carleton East (Mr. Lawrence), and keeps the Minister of Agriculture and the Treasurer; those two who began the uphill fight that was a slide downhill before it ever started.", "But that’s to be understood with this particular Premier. Any person, of course, who after that particular charade that went on for 10 days who would get up and say “Premier Denies Cabinet Rift.” It was as if we had a microphone in the cabinet room. We could see them fighting. The poor member for London North (Mr. Walker) was told by the Treasurer: “Get on the bandwagon or the people of London ain’t going to be with you.” But the tragedy of it all, really, and through you, Mr. Speaker, to the", "Minister of Agriculture, he never knew that Interprovincial were going to use the right of way they had at the time, did he? He didn’t know it at all." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "Of course I did." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "Well, why did the minister talk about arable land in southwestern Ontario that was already used?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "Will the member permit a question?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Will the member permit a question?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "No." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "I just want to ask why IPL is negotiating with the farmers of southern Ontario today, because they haven’t sufficient land to accommodate their equipment to lay the new pipeline." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order please, the member for Sarnia has the floor.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "The Liberal Party through the member for Sarnia displays an abysmal lack of concern for the farmers of Ontario." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Eaton", "text": [ "And the Liberals are all for it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "The Minister of Agriculture and Food is here. The Tories haven’t got any farmers over there." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order please, I wonder if the member would --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "Listen, the Minister of Energy had his voice changed. Why don’t you see where he got his operation?", "I want to say to you, Mr. Speaker, in connection with the Minister of Agriculture and Food, we sometimes find him an arch Tory, and that’s to be understood, but I say to you, nobody works harder, in connection with the cabinet of Ontario, than does the Minister of Agriculture and Food. No one. He works so much overtime that he had to make an application under the Employment Standards Act to work overtime, and the two criteria to get that type of discretion exercised were, “Are you going to be handicapped or mentally retarded?” and he qualified on both counts." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "The member for Sarnia is a very smart lad." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "There is the Chairman of the Management Board. There is a talent, really.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "Eleven of us made a list of those cabinet ministers who would go. He was unique --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please. I wonder if the member would speak to the chair." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "I certainly will. He was unique and he led every list, the Chairman of the Management Board." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "Tell the Speaker not to scream, eh." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "The member for Timiskaming says don’t scream." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Havrot", "text": [ "He has just broken my record. They can hear him in his riding, too." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "I think I will give some example, if I may, Mr. Speaker, of the type of waste that has been perpetuated by this particular government.", "For example, today you have the establishment of four additional parliamentary assistants. They might be needed, I think, to prop up some of the cabinet ministers. They each need two assistants. I’m not certain of it, but I doubt if there are six people on the government side now who don’t have some type of extra emolument to their office that would benefit them in the long run from a pension point of view.", "I don’t think there are six; there might be. We have taken care of the past, we are taking care of the present, and we hope like hell that they can take care of the future. That’s exactly the way they feel at the present time.", "But we are not worried so much about the future of the members on the government side, because we feel that’s limited. Our present purpose is to worry about the present of the people of Ontario.", "Now I don’t intend to take too much time in connection with reiteration of those things put forth so vigorously and well, with respect to our amendment to His Honour’s address, by my leader.", "I want to say this to you, there are two things that our people are concerned with, because we are all concerned with them; the first is housing. I don’t have any great statistical evaluation to give you. I want to say this to you, that I don’t want to put it in the context of statistics. I want to put it in the context of people. I want to say this to you, that in my city the problems that we face are developers coming in and buying a lot, perhaps for $2,000, and attempting to put the plan through, as my colleague from Grey-Bruce questioned about today, finding themselves, at every turn, resisted by levels of government; paying prime bank interest at a usurious rate of 11 per cent; called upon to dedicate five per cent to the government for public purposes; in most municipalities called upon to pay $700 to $1000 for impost for future main service charges, eventually finding themselves when they build a house put to the test by both the federal and provincial government of something in the neighborhood of 18 per cent tax on building materials; then called upon to pay a real estate commission for resale of five per cent; looking at lawyers’ fees at a basic rate of 1 1/4 per cent; paying a one per cent charge to CMHC in connection with possible defalcation, and as a matter of interest in that respect, their default rate is less than one per cent and they have got a fund built up of something in the neighbourhood of $300 million; paying a 1 1/2 percentage fee in connection with MICC loans, high ratio loans, again for things that basically in the context of our law require no risk at all; charged exorbitant rates of interest, having regard to the risk incurred by the lending institution, and finding, after that, that they spent years of their lives to acquire a down payment on a home --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Eaton", "text": [ "The member forgot the lawyer’s fee on all that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Huston", "text": [ "That shows that the member doesn’t listen." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "-- that the House leader of the NDP statistically catalogued in connection with this problem as to how long they pay it out.", "I want to say this to you, Mr. Speaker. I have a couple in my riding who are exemplary of the situation that faces society today and if I seem melodramatic I apologize to you. There was a time in the life of the senior members of this assembly when the first child to be born to a married couple, when the understanding that the child was on the way was a time for happiness. Do you realize with young people today who are attempting to buy a home, or who have bought a home and saddled themselves on the dependency of a double income, in the context of the requirements of society today and the amount of money they must put down and their obligations for carrying it, that the announcement of a first child is a tragedy?", "I think that’s what is really happening to society, and those are the things that I think we should be coming to grips with. And you can’t really say that a Throne Speech of that nature comes to grips at all with that type of problem.", "The thing is, we have tried time and time again -- and I think with sincerity on the other side you have attempted -- to come together and try to work out some method. What is the method? I don’t know, but surely the method can’t be the way things are being run now. I wonder what the answer is? I wonder if people can continue to bear the burden of cost and inflation that they do?", "There is nothing Socialist about this. One has to shave in the morning and look at himself and say, “I wonder what we are doing on behalf of the people?” If we come down here and have a responsibility other than to yak back and forth at each other, then we have to say, “Where are we going?”", "Where are we going in a society that increased the profit ratio of corporations in 1973 by 37 per cent, to a total of $14.8 billion, so that corporate profits became 10.5 per cent of the gross national profit. This isn’t a Socialist ripoff. It is not a Socialist ripoff at all. What it is, I think, is a recognition by all of us, and it should be a recognition by all of us, of a need for equitability in our tax structure. Believe me, I sincerely believe this, something has gone awry. The federal Liberals have gone awry in this respect -- and", "I speak personally in this respect -- I don’t think there is any doubt. How can you possibly rationalize the building of the Toronto Dominion Centre and the continuing of an unrealistic capital cost allowance that says that they can effectively write off that structure in 20 years? You can’t when you know the life of the building has to be 50 years at least." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Snow", "text": [ "How does the member rate that --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "Less than 50 years if you would like to get into the 20 per cent rate. Effectively write that type of thing off in 50 years; you can’t possibly rationalize that.", "I was telling some of my colleagues one time about a programme I had seen several weeks ago where Frank Magee was talking to the president of Exxon and he said to him: “Do you recognize, Mr. President, that you pay a lesser tax rate on your corporate profits than a janitor does who sweeps the office?” He said he didn’t know that. And he pointed out that the janitors’ effective rate in the United States was something like 15.4 per cent on his earnings. And Exxon, on profits of $2.2 billion, had paid an effective rate of 5.2 per cent. That’s not Socialist, but may I say that’s got to stop." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "Wait until the Treasurer --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. P. D. Lawlor (Lakeshore)", "text": [ "One has to be an executive." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "The middle-income people of the Dominion of Canada are not going to tolerate that to continue. We live and I live in the context of a free society, a free enterprise, wherein an individual or a collection of individuals are entitled, under our system, to flourish. But I for one, Mr. Speaker, say to my colleagues, through you, that we’re not going to flourish in that type of tax structure.", "I say to you, sir, that I for one opt away from these types of tax concessions. I want to say that I for one don’t buy the rationale of the federal Minister of Finance, and the rationale we’re going to get again tomorrow in connection with the budget speech --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. W. Hodgson", "text": [ "The member has been talking to the member for High Park, has he?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "-- which says that we must have this type of profit ratio to develop capital for increased employment. I don’t believe that for a moment. It’s the same rationale that the government gives in connection with International Nickel -- the same pap again, all the time. What the government does is it lets them write off their expense for exploration against their current profits, and then, by some circumlocution of logic, it says that they can then deplete the resource itself against their gross income. As if the resource was theirs to deplete!", "We give it to them twice, and we sit back, as the fat cats that they are and I am, and we say to the people who earn $15,000 and $16,000 a year and are raising three or four children, that they go forward and pay an effective rate of 22 per cent, in some cases 28 per cent, on that type of revenue." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "It’s known as the corporate ripoff." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. W. Hodgson", "text": [ "It’s the lawyer ripoff!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "May I say to my friend that it might have been coined as a corporate ripoff --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Jessiman", "text": [ "Is the member talking about legal aid?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "I don’t for one say that it might not be a corporate ripoff. I say, for myself --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. W. Hodgson", "text": [ "It has involved thousands of dollars over 10 years." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "-- that no longer can society as a whole tolerate that type or infrastructure of inequitable taxation. They just cannot do it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "Why doesn’t the member move over there?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "I don’t have to move anywhere. I’m quite happy where I am!" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "He can’t be; the member for Downsview doesn’t agree with him. Move over." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "Say to the Toronto-Dominion Bank: “We appreciate very much the infusion of that capital into the building industry”. And say to them, realistically --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "-- realistically: “Write that building off.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mrs. Campbell", "text": [ "Look who’s talking!" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "The member should move over and take the member for St. George with him. Move over!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "“Write that building off.” There is nothing wrong with that.", "The concept of giving them a capital cost allowance is a true concept in our society, but the concept of giving them a write-off well short of the life of the asset is in itself a ripoff and always will be a ripoff.", "These are the things I think people are talking about today. They’re saying to themselves -- I know they’re saying these things to me -- and I think we all, collectively, no matter whether we’re Conservative, Liberal or NDP, we had better have a look at these things. Perhaps that’s the beginning of a select committee that we might look at -- to look at the equitability of taxation in the Province of Ontario; we can lead the way there because we are the richest province. But one wouldn’t know it in the Throne Speech.", "What has the Throne Speech said? It hasn’t said anything about that. But I tell you what the budget will say tomorrow, Mr. Speaker. It will say less than nothing in connection with the restructuring of equitable taxation. It’ll say nothing at all about it because this government is hand in glove with those people. All that the government wants is their advantage, but not the advantage of the normal and ordinary taxpayer in the Province of Ontario. The Throne Speech said nothing; as a matter of fact, I don’t want to dwell on the Throne Speech at this late hour.", "I want to say there’s one thing in the Throne Speech that we agreed with, one thing that was said in that Throne Speech where, I believe, Mr. Speaker, the government did come to grips, and they’re to be complimented in coming to grips, with a problem. That was when they said: “May Divine Providence guide you in your deliberations and assist you in your responsibilities,” because that translates itself into “God help us.” If we continue with the type of initiative that worries about the environment in the context of billboards, then God do help us." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The hon. Solicitor General." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "The Solicitor General is lucky, he just lost the hon. member for Downsview." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. G. A. Kerr (Solicitor General)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I would like to join with other members of the House in saying how happy and pleased I am that the member for Waterloo South continues to occupy the chair and, as the member for Grey-Bruce has said, still wears that three-cornered hat. The Speaker, as everybody knows in the House, presides over this House in a fair and efficient manner and he is a credit to the Legislature. May he continue to preside over us for many years to come.", "Mr. Speaker, the Throne Speech debate gives members an opportunity to air their views on various matters of concern. The recent Throne Speech dealt with several major themes. Tonight I should like to single out five of these for the members’ attention.", "They are, first of all, inflation in the economy, then, land management, law reform, housing and northern development." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Five more?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Laughren", "text": [ "In that order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "Last year, Ontario had an increase in real growth of 7.2 per cent over 1972 and ended the year with a reduced unemployment average of just over four per cent. The outlook for this year is closely linked to the world-wide energy situation and, relative to other countries, Ontario and Canada, in my opinion, are well placed. But Canada must squarely face the continuing and debilitating effects of inflation which cannot and must not be ignored. If we don’t, the benefits of our relatively strong energy position will be lost.", "Toward the end of last year, the 10th annual review of the Economic Council of Canada, in reviewing the growth of the government sector in Canada, stressed the need for co-ordination between the federal government and the provinces of their respective economic policies. Here in Ontario, Mr. Speaker, we have been urging a complete revision of federal-provincial economic responsibilities. It is our firm belief that righting the existing fiscal imbalances will go a long way to solving the problem we face.", "Six months ago our Premier appealed to the Prime Minister of Canada for the federal government to meet with the provinces to consider practical measures to control inflation. The federal government has ignored this appeal. The present economic situation must be confronted by governments at the highest level. Ontario has in the past co-operated with the provinces and the federal government to seek national solutions to economic and other problems. We will continue to do so in the future in any and all matters of import to the province and to the nation as a whole.", "With respect to land management, governments everywhere these days find themselves facing shifting priorities --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "Is that the best the minister can do with inflation?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "-- and increasing conflict between the traditional rights of the individual and the rights or expectations of the community. This government has faced up to the challenge and has dealt with these two forces on the basis of merit and priority. The overriding criterion has been, is it best for our society and our province and, where larger issues are involved, is it best for Canada?", "Land use is a good example of such conflicting objectives. When regulations concerning the use of land, our own land, walk in the door, the notion of the collective good often flies out the window. It’s generally agreed today that something has to be done and a government has the responsibility of exploring every possible means of resolving the issue as equitably as possible.", "It is not easy. The political decisions are frequently tough. It would be far easier to do nothing or, as in the case of one political party in this province, to roll back the clock, hypocritically suggesting to people that things can be as they were 10 or 20 years ago.", "This, I suggest, Mr. Speaker, is to ignore reality. It’s the politically motivated fabrication of a dream world and the people see it for precisely what it is." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "Sounds like the Liberal Party." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Who wrote that? Did the minister write that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "Certainly we have tackled tough issues head on." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Did he write that?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "We have dealt with the escarpment, the parkway and regional governments." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "I am sure the member opposite didn’t write it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "We have placed ceilings on the growth rate of secondary and elementary educational expenditures. The Ministry of Health has contained its expenditures within reasonable levels. I think the worst thing a government can do today is to be dishonest with the people and say everything is all right and that it will maintain the status quo and nothing needs to be done. That may be the most politically attractive approach to take, Mr. Speaker, but it cannot be the approach of any responsible government in the 1970s.", "We have taken action to check and control urban sprawl and its attendant problems." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "Is he going to make a clean breast of it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "The government introduced a new Ontario Planning and Development Act, the Niagara Escarpment Act and the Parkway Belt Act to provide development planning to achieve this goal. The government has taken steps to meet the growth problems in central Ontario by legislating a development plan for approximately 1.3 million acres of land in the Niagara Escarpment and by establishing a broadly representative commission to be responsible for future planning in that area.", "Land-use regulations introduced for a parkway belt system from Dundas to Markham and ultimately to Oshawa --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "That’s the Hydro corridor, isn’t it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "-- recognize an urgent need for the channelling of utilized -- yes --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "The minister is telling me." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "-- and for ensuring that unbridled urban sprawl does not destroy neighbourhood and community identities." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "Where is the parkway?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "The government, Mr. Speaker, is also determined to ensure that farmers are given every assistance in retaining good lands in agricultural production.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "We’ve now --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "He cannot get his mind off the pipeline. Let’s go over that pipeline again." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "We have now received a report of the farm classification advisory committee which was created last year --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "Why did he talk about honesty a few moments ago?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "Its recommendations on our initiatives to ensure continued agricultural production on lands being held for future development offer a positive course of action for farming and food production in Ontario.", "The quality of life, Mr. Speaker, which we enjoy in this province owes much to the stability of our courts, law enforcement and public safety programmes.", "My colleague, the Attorney General (Mr. Welch), recently tabled in the Legislature the Ontario Law Reform Commissions report on family law. It is the government’s intention to introduce legislation during this session which will guard against a Murdoch case happening in Ontario. We propose to introduce provisions to protect the individual rights of both spouses during marriage, to ensure equitable property rights, to remove all discrimination against children born out of wedlock and to strengthen and unify our family court system so that it can be more effective.", "One of the most important priorities of the Ministry of the Solicitor General is the recognized need for a close relationship between the public and our law enforcement agencies. The report of the task force on policing was recently submitted and much of its content promises to be an extremely significant document in influencing the future of improved police relations here.", "The task force report produced 170 individual recommendations. Many of the recommendations concern the improvement of the standards of police training and place greater emphasis on humanitarianism in law enforcement. We must ensure that our police are professionally trained and are equipped with modern methods of detection and solution. Toward this goal, construction will commence on a new police training college at Aylmer next month.", "A broad programme of innovative training and of new standards of professionalism recommended by the task force is being closely studied.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "The report raised such questions as the need for more women and more ethnic representation in our police ranks and the adoption of a constable-centred management style.", "We intend, Mr. Speaker, to enlist and train more and more native people in policing their own reserves. After exhaustive negotiations, it is hoped that an agreement with the federal government will be reached on such policing during the next few weeks. It is also my hope that at least some of the task force recommendations will be implemented in legislation during this current session.", "Mr. Speaker, we realize that land suitable and appropriate for housing is of immediate and pressing concern and that this type of land-use should not completely override other desirable objectives. We must continue to be concerned for the population densities and for well planned communities. In short, while we must concentrate on quantity, quality must not be ignored.", "For the second consecutive year, dwelling starts in Ontario have exceeded 100,000 units, a rate of construction which is consistent with the government’s overall objective of one million new dwelling units in 10 years. A number of new housing programmes have been introduced to increase and upgrade the total housing stock. For example, the Ministry of Housing has introduced a programme of assistance to community groups in developing and managing their own housing projects. This com- munity-sponsored housing programme will promote co-operative and non-profit housing generally.", "This is another means of producing a combination for modern income earners and establishing another method of integrating public housing units in the community. The community groups to be assisted will include people of many income levels and with a wide variety of special interests and goals, such organizations as service clubs, charitable bodies, and those dedicated to aiding the elderly and the disabled.", "The programme will complement and add to federal programmes in three ways. It will provide grants of up to 10 per cent of the value of the housing projects to be paid over a 15-year period to reduce the mortgage payments. It will financially help in the rent payments of those in the lower and moderate income groups through the rent-supplement programme. In return for the grants, the community-sponsored groups will provide generally up to 25 per cent of their units for use under the rent-supplement programme.", "It will make available ongoing support in the form of expertise or other assistance in the areas of both the development and management of housing projects. The government is also prepared to lease provincial lands, where available, to community-sponsored groups having difficulty finding sites at a reasonable cost.", "Complementary to the community-sponsored housing programme is the Ontario home renewal programme. This includes the recent extension of the programme to provide municipalities with provincial funds for housing. These can then be used as municipal grants and low-interest loans for home improvement in districts either inside or outside designated neighbourhood improvement areas. Approximately $10,000 will be made available to municipalities for this programme during this fiscal year." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "How much?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "It will be $10 million. Did I say $10,000? I am sorry, $10 million.", "The funds will be allocated to municipalities that apply for them on a per-capita-grant basis. Twenty-five per cent of this money, Mr. Speaker, will be set aside for municipalities with populations of 5,000 people or less. This will guarantee that the rural and northern areas of the province are assured special consideration under the programme.", "Mr. Speaker, various items announced in the Speech from the Throne highlight the present and future role of the government in the development of northern Ontario. My colleague, the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. Rhodes), recently announced a major telecommunications project to link the communities of the remote northern area of Ontario with one another and the outside world. This three-year project will provide 31 communities north of the 51st parallel with standard two-way telephone service capable of connecting with any switchboard in the world. The basic design of the system will allow for the carrying of radio programmes for broadcast in the future. Further, the Telestat communications satellite will also be incorporated into the system.", "A prior and added advantage is that electrical power will be required for the communications equipment. To this end, Ontario will negotiate with the federal government to co-ordinate its community electrification schedule with that of the communications programme." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "They can do all these things, but they can’t fix up Highway 10." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "They have got to get a good member in there.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, two major development proposals for northwestern Ontario --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Stewart", "text": [ "Just wait until Harvey Davis gets in there." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "-- will create 3,000 new jobs over the next four years.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "The expansion plans announced by the Great Lakes Paper Co, in Thunder Bay and the Anglo-Canadian Pulp and Paper Co, in Dryden --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "It had better be in the budget tomorrow or else the government will be in trouble." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "-- constitute an investment of some $450 million over the same period.", "Today’s technology has opened a new path for the future use of nuclear energy and its attendant dependence on uranium. Ontario policy for future uranium exploration and use was tabled in the House just in recent weeks. In this area also, fully recognizing the importance of this resource, we have taken a broad national outlook. At the same time, Ontario fully intends to ensure that the interests of the north and the province as a whole are met.", "Mr. Speaker, it is gratifying to learn that the Conservation Council of Ontario considers that “public participation in planning major projects by the Ontario government and its agencies has become the norm rather than the exception.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Stokes", "text": [ "They still said the government had a long way to go." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "Well, we are making headway.", "This government has indicated, through its establishment of the Solandt commission and its intention to introduce legislation for an environmental assessment agency, that it welcomes public participation.", "Regarding the issue of decentralization, the government has restructured local government so that it can respond better to the stresses of urbanization. Approximately 62 per cent of Ontario’s population lives within the boundaries of a regional government, with its greater capacity to plan and govern their own affairs." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Those aren’t the issues." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Ask them how they like it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "As hon. members know, the province has increased substantially its unconditional grants to municipalities, and we wait for tomorrow.", "Also, contrary to the view that many of the members opposite have, civil servants are not all here at Queen’s Park. The fact is that civil servants are located throughout the province in about the same proportion as the population of Ontario. If any difference does exist, northern Ontario has a slight edge. More public servants are located there proportionately than in the rest of the province. There is significant decentralization --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Ferrier", "text": [ "Look how far they have to travel.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "It’s not a question of statistics. The government uses statistics for its own purposes." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "It’s true; there is significant decentralization of government expenditure programmes. School boards, hospital boards, universities, children’s aid societies and conservation authorities receive the largest share of the provincial budget. Local decision-making really is the keystone of such programmes.", "Mr. Speaker, individuals seeking assistance from government are not overlooked, and programmes from the Consumers’ Byline to the citizens’ inquiry bureau are available to the public -- all designed to assist individuals and to complement the work of a member of the Legislature.", "To touch briefly on one or two other areas, as members are aware, Mr. Speaker, the concerns of the government with regard to health care and costs led to the establishment of a health planning task force under the chairmanship of Dr. Fraser Mustard about two years ago. The report has now been tabled and, following the incorporation of recommendations of the Committee on the Healing Arts and the McRuer report into legislative proposals, the Health Disciplines Act has also been introduced. This major bill and the Mustard report will have a strong impact on future delivery of health care services." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Ruston", "text": [ "He’s telling us!" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "Income support programmes mentioned in this year’s Throne Speech, as well as a prescription drug plan, will add to the benefits received by Ontario senior citizens. Last year, a $100 pensioners’ tax credit was instituted. This benefit, together with the provincial property tax credit and the sales tax credit, for which all other citizens are eligible, will bring a measure of relief to many of our older citizens." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "The words are a “measure of relief.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "Well, what’s a measure?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Yes, what’s a measure?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the government is moving and moving effectively in the major areas covered by the Speech from the Throne, despite the criticism of some members opposite." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawler", "text": [ "Did the minister write this himself?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "It is interesting to watch the almost desperate efforts of some of the members opposite to find evidence of failure in these areas." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Evidence of desperate efforts." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "Sometimes it appears that the members opposite are almost praying for failure." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Well, of course we are." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "“Praying for failure” -- we don’t have to; this government fails consistently." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Lawlor", "text": [ "We are praying for it just a little." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "Since the rebirth, really, of the Leader of the Opposition and his fragmented ranks of the Liberal Party --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "I think that this is a partisan speech." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "-- he is sort of putting his programme together with scissors and paste from the latest editorials of the Globe and Mail and the Toronto Star." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "Hold it a minute while the opposition heckle each other." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "The cold hard fact of the matter is that the Leader of the Opposition and some members opposite --" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Is this the windup? --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "-- are adrift in the sea of political opportunism." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Great stuff." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "They know full well that no matter how much they may posture in politics the real responsibility, for example, for cooling the fires of inflation lies with the Liberal government in Ottawa -- and it has been the same government that has held power for the past decade." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Riddell", "text": [ "Who wrote this speech? Shakespeare?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "And the member for Scarborough West (Mr. Lewis) knows full well that he could help to alleviate some of the major economic problems facing this province --" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "With his father’s help." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "-- and the nation by talking to his daddy and his friends in Ottawa --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "That’s where he is now, I guess." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "It has been what has saved the country so far." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "-- who sustained the present federal administration no matter how it might compromise party principles." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Ruston", "text": [ "I think the minister had better start his windup speech." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the Speech from the Throne provides a framework for effective action by a government --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Now we know why they kept the Provincial Secretary for Resources Development around here." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "-- which has demonstrated time and again that it is concerned about people and their problems and has the determination to solve them. I hope that as legislation is introduced in many of these areas in the weeks ahead this determination will be clear enough even for my friends opposite, it says here." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "That’s what it says there.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "I am glad he read the decision." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I would urge all members of the House to support the motion moved by the hon. member for Brantford (Mr. Beckett) --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "That was a weak one." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Kerr", "text": [ "-- and seconded by the hon. member for Timiskaming without amendment." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "The minister is embarrassed, isn’t he?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The Throne debate now being concluded I shall call for the vote as follows:", "Mr. Beckett moves, seconded by Mr. Havrot, that a humble address be presented to the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor as follows:", "“To the Honourable W. Ross Macdonald, PC, CD, QC, LLD, Lieutenant Governor of Ontario;", "“May it please Your Honour:", "“We, Her Majesty’s most dutiful and loyal subjects of the legislative assembly of the Province of Ontario now assembled, beg leave to thank Your Honour for the gracious speech Your Honour has addressed to us.”", "Mr. R. F. Nixon moves, seconded by Mr. Breithaupt, that the following words be added to the motion:", "“But this House condemns the government:", "“1. For its chaotic education policy which has led to the inability of teachers and school boards to reach a reasonable agreement and resulted in the dislocation of our education system.”", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Continuing:", "“2. For its failure to establish a prices review committee of the Legislature which together with a reduction in provincial deficit spending would exert control on inflation;", "“3. For its inadequate land-use policy which continues to permit the unreasonable loss of farmland to government and private development -- ”", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Continuing:", "“ -- and the unnatural inflationary pressures of foreign land purchases without safeguarding Canadian ownership and interest;", "“4. For its failure to establish planning and land servicing programmes without which serviced-lot costs have escalated housing out of the financial reach of our residents.”", "Mr. Lewis moves, seconded by Mr. Deans that this government be further condemned for its failure to institute satisfactory actions in the following policy areas:", "Inflation and the cost of living:", "1. Failure to investigate increases in profits to ensure no excess profit taking;", "2. Failure to establish a price and profit review tribunal with power to investigate every aspect of price increases and take whatever action is necessary to ensure no unreasonable increases or to have selected increases rolled back;", "3. Failure to establish a consumer protection code extending not only to marketplace transactions and commodities but to the provision of services;", "4. Failure to institute a province-wide warranty for home building standards;", "5. Failure to institute a public automobile insurance programme.", "Northern development:", "1. Failure to establish economic growth in northern Ontario based on the resource potential as a catalyst for secondary development;", "2. Failure to establish northern economic development in employment based on long-term secondary growth as a No. 1 priority;", "3. Failure to recognize the massive economic disparity between northern and southern Ontario and the adverse effects of the two-price system in this province, and failure to take appropriate measures to bring about equality.", "Land use and urban growth:", "1. Failure to move immediately to acquire for the public sector sufficient land to meet the projected housing needs over the next 20 years;", "2. Failure to begin a house building programme aimed at producing at least 250,000 homes, both private and public, within 18 months;", "3. Failure to develop a land-use policy and overall development plan to meet recreation requirements in all areas of the province with immediate emphasis on the “golden horseshoe” area:", "4. Failure to establish rent review and control measures.", "Employer-employee relations:", "1. Failure to amend the Ontario Labour Relations Act to meet the legitimate requests of the Ontario Federation of Labour as conveyed to all members of the Legislature;", "2. By allowing conditions of work and wages for the hospital workers of Ontario to deteriorate to a substandard level;", "3. By creating a confrontation with teachers in this province and then failing to respond to the consequences of this action;", "4. By inflicting compulsory arbitration on Crown employees;", "5. Failure to legislate against strike-breaking and the use of firms and individuals to disrupt orderly legal strikes.", "Income maintenance:", "1. By failing to institute an income maintenance programme to meet the legitimate needs of the elderly;", "2. By failing to establish adequate income levels for the disabled and other disadvantaged people of Ontario.", "Health:", "1. Failure to provide a sufficient range of institutional facilities to ensure adequate health care at lowest costs;", "2. By failing to institute a dental and drug care programme;", "3. By failing to take initiatives which would upgrade the value of preventive medicine;", "And, further, that the government shows gross negligence in its refusal to tax the resources industry of Ontario at a level which would allow individuals and families in this province to experience major relief from the inequitable and oppressive system of taxation presently in effect.", "We will first vote on the amendment to the amendment moved by Mr. Lewis.", "The House divided on the amendment to the amendment by Mr. Lewis, which was negatived on the following vote:" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please." ] }, { "speaker": "Clerk of the House", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the “ayes” are 30, the “nays” 54." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I declare the amendment to the amendment lost.", "We will now vote on the amendment moved by Mr. R. F. Nixon. Is it agreeable that the same vote be accepted?", "Agreed." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I declare the amendment lost. We will now vote on the motion moved by Mr. Beckett. Will it be agreeable to take the same vote in reverse?", "Agreed." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I declare the motion carried.", "RESOLVED: That a humble address be presented to the Honourable W. Ross Macdonald, Lieutenant Governor of the Province of Ontario:", "May it please Your Honour: We, Her Majesty’s most dutiful and loyal subjects of the legislative assembly of the Province of Ontario, now assembled, beg leave to thank Your Honour for the gracious speech which Your Honour hath addressed to us." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, before I move the adjournment of the House, tomorrow, prior to the introduction of the budget, we will --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "The minister means today." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "Today, thank you. If time permits we will deal with Bills 20 and 21." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "I’m glad to hear that." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Winkler", "text": [ "On Thursday, I will also call further legislation.", "The following week, on Tuesday, we will give the Leader of the Opposition an opportunity to reply to the budget, and Thursday of that week will be the date assigned to the leader of the NOP.", "Hon. Mr. Winkler moves the adjournment of the House.", "Motion agreed to.", "The House adjourned at 12:45 o’clock, a.m." ] } ]	April 8, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-08/hansard
POINTS OF PRIVILEGE	[ { "speaker": "Mr. M. Shulman (High Park)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I rise on two points of privilege.", "The first one is it is my understanding that tradition says that every backbench member of the House who wishes may participate in the Throne debate. It has now been indicated this morning that some of the members may not be allowed time to participate." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon (Leader of the Opposition)", "text": [ "Indicated by whom?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "There has been no such tradition established, nor is there anything in standing orders to that effect; nor does custom in this chamber indicate so." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Is it not in May, sir? Is it your ruling that everyone does not have to be given an opportunity to participate?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I don’t think that a ruling is necessary. I am just confirming the facts to the hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Sir, is it not possible to extend the hours of the House to allow those members who wish to participate time to do so?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "It is beyond my control." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "In whose control is it, sir?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. Sargent (Grey-Bruce)", "text": [ "Why doesn’t the member attend the sessions once in a while?", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "Do I have any comment from the House leader? Will he make any comment on this?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. E. A. Winkler (Chairman, Management Board of Cabinet)", "text": [ "Ask me a question during question period." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "The second matter, sir, is that I believe it is a privilege of the members of this House to receive correspondence and communication from members of the public who are incarcerated in our prisons without those persons being punished for so doing. Back on June 27, 1973, one Daniel Brenner, an inmate of Guelph Reformatory, wrote me a letter complaining about the medical facilities in that institution, which I subsequently raised in the House.", "As a result of that letter, many months later -- in fact last week after he had been transferred up to Burwash -- he applied for permission to transfer to Camp Bison, which is a portion of Burwash where people may take classes. He was refused.", "As his record was clean, he asked why he had been refused and they then produced a copy of my letter, the letter which he had sent to me in June, 1973, and said that as a result of this letter they didn’t like his attitude. Sir, he is being punished for communicating with his MPP, and surely this is a breach of privilege?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I presume the hon. member is complaining of the suggested procedure wherein they had taken a copy of his confidential letter and certain consequences resulted." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Shulman", "text": [ "One can’t punish a man for that." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I believe perhaps the hon. member does have some grounds for complaint, but certainly I do not, in any way, see where this is a parliamentary privilege extended to members of the Legislature and not extended to members of the public generally.", "The hon. member may have some cause for complaint. He has put his point across on the floor of the chamber. I do not believe it is anything that would constitute parliamentary privilege. However, he’s made his point." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. A. Grossman (Provincial Secretary for Resources Development)", "text": [ "He must keep in mind that at the moment it is only an allegation." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Statements by the ministry." ] } ]	April 5, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-05/hansard
MINAKI LODGE	[ { "speaker": "Hon. C. Bennett (Minister of Industry and Tourism)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, on Feb. 7, I announced that an agreement had been reached with the owner of Minaki Lodge for the voluntary transfer of ownership of Minaki Lodge Resorts Ltd. and its associated companies to the Northern Ontario Development Corp.", "At that time, I made it very clear the government of Ontario is prepared to assure that Minaki flourishes, not only for its own sake but for the good of northwestern Ontario. I pointed out that the name of the game is not just the creation of an improved and important facility at Minaki, but also it is the building of new opportunity in northwestern Ontario.", "It is the government’s firm conviction that an expanded and improved facility at Minaki can act as a magnet to draw additional people into northwestern Ontario and that this facility will complement others which are located in this important area of our province.", "Mr. Speaker, this morning I am pleased to announce that a knowledgeable board of directors has taken office to direct the affairs of Minaki. This board will develop policies aimed at providing a facility designed to attract Canadian and international visitors to northwestern Ontario.", "The seven-member board is sitting in the Speaker’s gallery this morning and will be holding meetings throughout the day here in Toronto. The board of directors consists of: Mr. Tom Spence, an experienced motel operator of Dryden; Edwin Fahlgren, manager of a Red Lake mining company; Ben Ratuski, a Keewatin businessman known for wild rice; Brian O’Brian, owner of a Thunder Bay real estate company and president of the associated Chambers of Commerce, northeastern and northwestern Ontario; David Caswell, a well-known northern Ontario hotel operator; Rolland Doucette, a Perth restaurateur; and the seventh is Fred Boyer, executive director of the division of tourism in the Ministry of Industry and Tourism.", "This board, Mr. Speaker, has been given the dual responsibility of appointing expert management and preparing the physical concept of the Minaki Lodge to emerge in the near future. I have every reason to believe that through these actions we shall produce a facility that will be of real benefit to Ontario.", "Mr. Speaker, I wish to inform the House that Minaki Lodge is now in the hands of Canadians. It is the intention of the government of Ontario to get the affairs of Minaki Lodge back into excellent condition and then to take the necessary steps to put this superb resource in the hands of the Canadian private sector." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Oral questions.", "The hon. Leader of the Opposition." ] } ]	April 5, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-05/hansard
CORPORATION INCOME TAX PAID BY OIL COMPANIES TO PROVINCE	[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier a question if I can have his attention for a moment. Does he agree with the statement made by the Minister of Revenue (Mr. Meen) yesterday that it is not within the minister’s competence or power to reveal the tax returns submitted to him by public corporations in this province? His answer was in response to the leader of the NDP (Mr. Lewis) who was requesting specific information in this regard.", "Would the Premier not agree that these matters are a matter of public record and, particularly since the situation is going to have to be made public, he should instruct his Minister of Revenue to make public this information without any further delay?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. G. Davis (Premier)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition is presuming on my knowledge of the law. This is something I would have to discuss with the minister and perhaps even with the Attorney General (Mr. Welch).", "Quite frankly, I don’t know what the statues provide with respect to disclosure of tax information. If the statutes provide that it can’t be disclosed, obviously we must be bound by the statutes. If the statutes do not so provide, of course, I think the minister would consider it.", "I cannot give the Leader of the Opposition the legal opinion here this morning because I haven’t had an opportunity to check the statutes myself. Quite frankly, even if I had, I think I would want to get some advice from the chief law officer of the Crown in any event." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. J. White (Treasurer, Minister of Economics and Intergovernmental Affairs)", "text": [ "That’s a good, tough question though." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I’m glad the Treasurer is here; I have a question or two for him, since this is the first time he has been in for a question period for a number of days. Will he just stay for a little while?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. D. Kennedy (Peel South)", "text": [ "The member is lucky he was away." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "He was here yesterday." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Premier would simply state, as a matter of principle, that if the law does not forbid it -- and no one here knows of any such law or regulation -- and if it is just the reluctance of the Minister of Revenue, as it appeared yesterday, that he will correct that reluctance and see that the public information is provided without delay." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "Hard-hitting “Bob Nixon” is on the warpath, by George." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I hear the Treasurer is getting out of politics. I hear he can’t stand the heat. I hear that he and Ward Cornell are going to move to London and see what they can stir up." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "There’s no challenge here." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "I can’t stand looking over there any longer." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "The Liberals have been out of politics for years." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have almost forgotten the question; I wonder if the Leader of the Opposition can remember what he asked and then maybe I can answer it. I have a feeling my answer is the same as it was to the first question." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I would put it to the Premier, if his exuberant friend can contain himself for a moment --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. I. Deans (Wentworth)", "text": [ "Has he been up all night?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Will he instruct the Minister of Revenue to give this information if in fact it is just his reluctance rather than any regulation which prohibits it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Revenue, being one of those very capable men on this side of this House, doesn’t need any instructions from me --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Yes, that’s two -- the Minister of Revenue and the Treasurer." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "If it is proper to release this information, I am sure he will do so. But, as I said a few moments ago, it depends on what the statutes provide." ] } ]	April 5, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-05/hansard
RESTORATION OF OLD FORT WILLIAM	[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, since the question I have for the Treasurer is not of such great importance, I would direct my next question to the Minister of Natural Resources, who seems to be in the news again concerning the government policy with regard to the construction of Old Fort William.", "Is he prepared to appear before the public accounts committee to justify once again the charges in the Globe and Mail by Gerald McAuliffe that substantial contracts have been let without tender, even though the statement has been made through other members of the ministry, that wherever possible, tendering procedures will be used? Is he prepared to explain as well why the basic contract was let without tender to National Heritage and Pigott Project Management, without even the requirement of a performance bond, although they in turn require 100 per cent performance bonds from the subcontractors who are doing the work for them?", "Basically, is the minister prepared to appear before the committee on public accounts to justify what appears to be a policy that flies in the face of the stated policy of the administration?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. L. Bernier (Minister of Natural Resources)", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, if I may explain one little point regarding the article that appeared in the Globe and Mail this morning -- and I might say it is the third one -- as I read it this morning, it reminded me, I suppose, of sausage -- some bad sausage." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Bad sausage?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier", "text": [ "The casing was good but the stuffing was terrible, and I think my friend will have to agree with that. Just one point, though: I was shocked that this session is now into its third or fourth week and this is the first question that the opposition members have directed to me in connection with what will be the most fantastic tourist attraction in northwestern Ontario. This will be a milestone in the development of tourist attractions. Don’t ever forget it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. A. Renwick (Riverdale)", "text": [ "It should be at what it cost at public expense." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier", "text": [ "I might say further that I am in Thunder Bay at least once a week. My telephone lines and my mail communications to northwestern Ontario are excellent --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "That doesn’t excuse the way in which the contract was let, and the minister knows it." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier", "text": [ "-- and I might say that to this day I have not received a phone call of complaint or a --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Answer the question." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier", "text": [ "-- letter of complaint. The news media are supporting our project up there. And all of northwestern Ontario is excited about this particular development --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "The minister received a question this morning. What about the fact that no tenders were let?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "Let’s deal with the question of the expenditure of public funds. Let’s deal with the improper use of public funds." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. E. Bullbrook (Sarnia)", "text": [ "Answer the question! The minister can’t get away with that; he doesn’t have the talent." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "We will try it in the public accounts committee where the minister won’t be able to make his propaganda statements." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier", "text": [ "I haven’t received a complaint from northwestern Ontario about the construction of Old Fort William -- not one complaint -- and I am there looking for it all the time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "We have over here." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "What’s so special about the member?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier", "text": [ "The former Minister of Industry and Tourism (Mr. Auld) explained it very well with regard to the question raised by the Leader of the Opposition, and I don’t think there is any need for me to delve into that further. But I would say to the Leader of the Opposition that with regard to the calling of tenders and specifically the placing of performance bonds --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "What a bunch of clowns!" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier", "text": [ "-- this is not a requirement within the contract itself, and many of the contracts that were called --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Why isn’t it? Surely it should be." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "It is required by public accounts." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier", "text": [ "-- were all subcontracts awarded by the contractor himself, and they are not necessary --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Then the minister is to blame." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier", "text": [ "I tell the member that dealing with such picayune things as birch bark, as cedar bark --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "As public funds, such picayune things as public funds." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. R. Breithaupt (Kitchener)", "text": [ "But 10 times as big!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier", "text": [ "-- for all picayune little contracts, it is not necessary to ask for a performance bond. But I would be prepared to look into it further." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. D. C. MacDonald (York South)", "text": [ "Tories trust Tories when they are handling public Treasury.", "Interjection by an hon. member." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I asked the minister if he would agree to appear before the public accounts committee, where this must be gone into in detail; will he give his undertaking so to do?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, if I get a request from the public accounts committee, certainly I’ll be glad to appear." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "A supplementary: How can the minister justify, simply by referring to what his colleague said in answer to a question some months ago, saying that it is not necessary to call tenders? Surely if the government is going to spend public money in the most effective and fair way it is necessary to call tenders?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier", "text": [ "I just explained that, Mr. Speaker. Many of the contracts called were subcontracts by the contractor himself. It’s not necessary for them to place performance bonds for contracts which may be --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Renwick", "text": [ "But the major contract is and the accounting for it is." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier", "text": [ "-- for $1,000 to $2,000 and are very small and picayune in nature." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. F. Foulds (Port Arthur)", "text": [ "A supplementary: Is the minister not aware, in view of his answer to the first question asked by the Leader of the Opposition, that he has received complaints from northwestern Ontario and there has been on the order paper since the first week of this session a detailed question on Old Fort William? If the minister had the courage to answer that detailed question, he might in fact clear up a lot of the misunderstanding surrounding Old Fort William, instead of giving these vague wishy-washy answers." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier", "text": [ "Mr., Speaker, those questions placed on the order paper will be answered in due course." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "A supplementary, in view of the minister’s answer: Is he not aware that I am surprised he hasn’t had time to answer it in three weeks, if he thinks nobody has asked him questions on this matter for three weeks?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have to point out to you that the member for Port Arthur is the only one who has raised any question about the development of Old Fort William. I am surprised, if he is a true northwestern Ontarian, that he should be against a development of that magnitude." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "No one is against it!" ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "Sure he is.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. A. Stewart (Minister of Agriculture and Food)", "text": [ "He doesn’t want it at all." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "That’s what we asked, that’s what we want." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier", "text": [ "Surely he is not representing his people as they would want him to represent them." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "That is a weak defence by the minister." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "A supplementary, Mr. Speaker: Is the minister not aware that if the government spent the amount of money it is spending on Old Fort William on genuine secondary industrial development in northwestern Ontario, it would have a much stronger economic infrastructure than with the Disneyland tourist trade it is now building?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. E. M. Havrot (Timiskaming)", "text": [ "Let the member take it up in public accounts and stop wasting question time." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "That is the Tories for you!", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. J. R. Rhodes (Minister of Transportation and Communications)", "text": [ "He doesn’t like tourists." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier", "text": [ "I would ask the member for Port Arthur to inform himself on what the tourist industry means to northwestern Ontario. If he would do a little bit of background research and find out what it really means --" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "He doesn’t like tourism. He and the member for Sudbury (Mr. Germa) want hot-dog stands. What has the NDP got against tourism?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier", "text": [ "-- and the employment it provides; the dollars and the traffic it will generate will be fantastic, beyond his wildest dreams.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "Without smokestacks." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Bernier", "text": [ "He should bring himself up to date on those plans.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. J. H. Jessiman (Fort William)", "text": [ "He doesn’t know a boathouse from a dog kennel." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Foulds", "text": [ "I would ask the minister himself what it means to labour in industry and the sweat shop industry itself?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order. The hon. Leader of the Opposition on a new question." ] } ]	April 5, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-05/hansard
RESTRUCTURING OF RENFREW COUNTY	[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I’d like to ask a question of the Treasurer, since he is so anxious to participate in the debate this morning. In his capacity as Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, he does have some responsibility for the municipalities to some extent; how did he reply to the mayor of the town of Renfrew who complained that the Treasurer has established an inadequate base for the committee to look into the restructuring of Renfrew county, in that the terms of reference were going to be established by two people, not elected, from only one community in the area? Has he amended his position on the basis for that examination into a possible restructuring, or is he just going to let it go and bull it through as is his custom?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "I think the mayor’s letter has reached the Leader of the Opposition before it reached me. At any rate, I haven’t seen it." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "It is addressed to the minister and is dated March 26." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "I haven’t seen it yet." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Why doesn’t he read his mail? Isn’t he ever in his office?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "I have been working on the budget." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Come on!" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "There is the hard-hitting Treasurer.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "A supplementary: As the minister has not read his mail, and the letter must have been on his desk probably for five days, can he undertake to the House that he will review the establishment of the committee which is to set up the terms of reference for the restructuring of Renfrew county to see that it is distributed more widely across the communities of the county and to give an answer to the mayor who says in his third paragraph: “Since you have chosen not to answer two previous communications on this matter”, probably the man, in some desperation, is communicating with somebody else?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. White", "text": [ "I’ll certainly read the letter and I’ll certainly reply to it. Whether I can meet the substance of his request, I cannot tell at the moment." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "And really, essentially, the Treasurer doesn’t give a damn." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Has the hon. Leader of the Opposition further questions?" ] } ]	April 5, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-05/hansard
OIL PRICES	[ { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I would like to ask the Minister of Energy if he had any part to play in what appears to be a substantial mistake in the establishment of the base price of the oil from Alberta, or if he is prepared to say the blame lies entirely elsewhere? Were his statisticians involved in the computations which we read about, leading to a fairly serious error involving an extra $30 million at least in the costing of this oil?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Rhodes", "text": [ "What about the 99 cents a gallon on oil?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. W. D. McKeough (Minister of Energy)", "text": [ "No." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I didn’t hear the answer, Mr. Speaker." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The answer was no." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Supplementary: Is the minister having his statisticians look into this matter to see if, in fact, it will have a direct effect on the consumers in this province, who seem to have their prices dictated by the agreement of the Premiers, based on, in this case, inadequate information?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, since the meeting of a week ago last Wednesday we have been having our statisticians and others examine all aspects of the matter, including the differences between the wellhead price and the Edmonton price and transportation costs. I’m not entirely clear as to the references to the differences between synthetic crude and other oil, for example, as contained in this morning’s paper. We are looking into that.", "We are, of course, looking into the matter of the other increase of one or two cents requested by the companies and we are assured by Ottawa they are looking into all these matters and hope to come to a resolution.", "I should also point out one inaccuracy, if I may Mr. Speaker, in what the Leader of the Opposition has said. He implied that this was an agreement reached by the Premiers of the provinces --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. Haggerty (Welland South)", "text": [ "Why wasn’t the minister at that meeting?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "He is overlooking the fact that the agreement in effect was -- and I don’t think it’s too strong a word -- dictated by the Prime Minister of Canada." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Breithaupt", "text": [ "He would have a small part to play." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Supplementary: Would the minister not agree with the Premier, who stated after the agreement was completed that he had accepted -- I wish I could remember the exact words -- but with some equanimity and that it was the best he could get?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "With reluctance. Does the member want me to repeat what I said?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Sure." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, just so there is no misunderstanding, I said that I was pleased there had been an agreement reached so that there wouldn’t be a confrontation, that with reluctance we accepted the $6.50 price, which was the price suggested by the Prime Minister of Canada --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "There was an agreement?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "-- but if we didn’t reach agreement they would impose the price by legislation. Ontario preferred a $6 price, and still would; some sister provinces preferred $8, and some were somewhere in between. Ontario would still like to have had $6, but the Prime Minister of Canada made it abundantly clear -- and I understand the position he had to take, because he had to have it solved -- when he said: “Gentlemen, we agree or it’s $6.50 tomorrow afternoon by way of legislation.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Supplementary: The Premier then, in clarification of what the Minister for Energy has said, did not really feel the decision was imposed upon him and that he accepted it under circumstances somewhat different than the minister describes?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I think that one can use whatever interpretation one may want to use." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Try to get it both ways." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "It was an offer he couldn’t refuse." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "The first minister of this country, who had to make a determination because April 1 was coming, said, very politely but very firmly: “If we can reach an agreement, fine. If we can’t, it’s $6.50 by legislation;” I think he said “tomorrow afternoon.” It’s as simple as that. One can use whatever interpretation one wants." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Grossman", "text": [ "Sounds like “The Godfather.”" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "Supplementary of the Premier, if I may: Notwithstanding whether the agreement was reciprocal or imposed, may we properly assume from the response given by the Minister of Energy that the first ministers of all the provinces and the Prime Minister of Canada, on behalf of the people whom they represent, have entered into an agreement in connection with the base rate without taking into consideration the wellhead price of synthetic crude?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I can only tell the member for Sarnia that we were discussing the price per barrel of oil coming into the sister provinces of Canada; and we were discussing a price -- and there was whatever terminology one might wish to use -- a price of $6.50 plus transportation." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "I take it the answer is yes?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "No. There was no mention --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "By way of final supplementary, is the Premier saying in effect that he did or did not take into consideration in his base rate agreement the wellhead price of synthetic crude? If he did, would he please tell us he did? If he didn’t, why didn’t he? And who advises the Premier in connection with these things?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Davis", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I can only say that neither the first minister nor any Premier there distinguished between synthetic or non-synthetic crude. It’s as simple as that." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, if I might just add to this, I think the member is suggesting that the Premier was not properly advised. May we say that it would have been much easier --" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "Sit down." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Sargent", "text": [ "How can he do it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "The original question was directed to the hon. minister and the hon. members directed it to the Premier after. The hon. Minister of Energy has every right to complete his answer." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "The member has suggested that proper advice was not given to the Premier of this province, and I think we can say that we were not able to give him all the advice which we would like to have given him because of the fact that from the January meetings the government of Canada did not consult with the other provinces. They entered into certain bilateral discussions, which Ontario was not necessarily part of. We didn’t know what was going to be put on the table because of the secrecy surrounding the federal government’s plans.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "This government entered into an agreement and didn’t know what the contents were." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, order. Has the hon. Leader of the Opposition further questions? The hon. member for Wentworth on behalf of the New Democratic Party." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order please. The hon. member for Wentworth has the floor.", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. McKeough", "text": [ "Members opposite are just patsies for Ottawa." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Bullbrook", "text": [ "Can you imagine signing that agreement, Mr. Speaker, and not knowing what was in it?" ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order. I have recognized the hon. member for Wentworth." ] } ]	April 5, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-05/hansard
TORONTO REAL ESTATE BOARD PROPERTY SALES NEWS BLACKOUT	[ { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This family squabbling is getting a bit much.", "I would like to ask the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations if he believes that the recent action of the Toronto Real Estate Board, where it decided not to publish the sales figures for property sales in Metropolitan Toronto --", "Interjections by hon. members." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Order, please. I can’t tell whether the question is in order or not." ] }, { "speaker": "An hon. member", "text": [ "It is out of date but it is in order." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Yes, it is out of date. I am asking the minister whether he feels that action is in the public interest or whether he feels that it is simply an attempt by the real estate board to hide the rapidly rising prices of housing in Metropolitan Toronto.", "Doesn’t the minister think it might be in the public interest for his ministry to take over and to publish such figures on a monthly or weekly basis in selected areas of the Province of Ontario to ensure that the public is aware of the kinds of escalating prices that are taking place?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. J. T. Clement (Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations)", "text": [ "I read with interest the matter to which the hon. member refers. I was also somewhat ironically amused to note that it was the subject of a press release, which of course would have the effect of drawing all sorts of attention to it. It might well be in the public interest that this information be made available. I haven’t considered it yet, Mr. Speaker. I was somewhat surprised when I read the announcement myself." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "By way of supplementary question, can we anticipate that the minister might be making a statement with regard to the possibility of his ministry assuming some role in the field and making sure that the public of Ontario is made aware of the kinds of price increases, not only the rate of increase but the justification for the increases that are occurring in the Province of Ontario in the housing field?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I have been advised by my staff that the board reversed the decision, apparently this morning, and is now going to release those figures." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "Supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "I think the hon. member who asked the original should have the first supplementary." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Deans", "text": [ "Regardless of the decision by the Toronto Real Estate Board to release the figures, does the minister not feel that it is a public responsibility and that it should apply not simply to Toronto but to other centres in the province that are feeling the effects of increased prices for housing? Does he not feel that it might be in the interest of bringing down the price of housing if he were to undertake the responsibility?" ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, I do feel that it is in the public interest to make as much information available to the public as is possible. I would like to point out to the hon. member that this is an independent association and I, per se, have no jurisdiction over it. But I do think it is in the public interest that the public be advised of the trends, not only in real estate but other commodities over which we have some interest or some control." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "I have a supplementary having to do with the other commodities. I was wondering, if the minister believes this information should be public, as others obviously do, would he include, in a housing price index in that we might develop something like that, a reference to the apartment rates, particularly in the Metropolitan areas and the urban areas of the province? The predictions are that the vacancy rates are now at one per cent and are going to be zero in the fall. I think the public should be kept informed as to how these rates are changing as well." ] }, { "speaker": "Hon. Mr. Clement", "text": [ "Mr. Speaker, my colleague the Minister of Housing (Mr. Handleman) made a statement touching on this subject yesterday. I just can’t recall his entire statement as to whether this information was going to be looked into or not." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. R. F. Nixon", "text": [ "He said he didn’t think the shortage was as substantial as indicated." ] }, { "speaker": "Mr. Speaker", "text": [ "Supplementary? The hon. member for Wentworth." ] } ]	April 5, 1974	https://www.ola.org/en/legislative-business/house-documents/parliament-29/session-4/1974-04-05/hansard

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